About Erron Black's throw animation: if it looks like the recoil is fake, that's because it is. It's not the motion of a guy firing guns, it's the motion of a motion-captured actor miming gunfire while waving prop guns. It's a symptom of Netherrealm's over-reliance on mocap.
I think the point is "this looks like kids flailing nerf guns because it basically is just kids flailing nerf guns". If they worked from scratch, they would have more ability to consciously add those small details over the hours and hours spent making animations. But no, netherrealms says "just rely upon the 5 seconds of actions of a mo cap actor with a nerf gun"
@@Felix.Fictus But they'd have to actually use their money to hire someone who actually knows how to proffesionally use guns. They were probably cutting corners with some things in the game. (Not defending, just thinking of an explanation).
@@KashewKiddo3826 the thing with Hol Horse is that he is doing the posture because he likes cowboys. I am not kidding , Araki said that Hol Horse pretty much nerfed Emperor by been a cowboy poser.
This perfectly explains why Jason is one of the few characters that feels any good to play as for me in MKXL, the animations actually fit him unlike the rest of the characters
I see his weird animations when I watch MKX gameplay and then realise how Jason isn't meant to know much about moving his body in the most effective way
@@scottyj8655 If we're talking about the Remake Jason. Or the Video Game Jason, much as he is supposed to be mobile, cause Gameplay Reasons, it still feels... *like a Big Guy swinging Weapons.* Not sure how to phrase that.
@@Berd-Wasted. Jason has known how to use a crossbow since part 3, always puts bodies in weird jumpscare spots at the end of each movie, built a shrine for his mom in part 2 and that cabin in general was built by him, hell in part 4 he constantly tries to grab the machete out of that girl's hand but keeps hesitating because she's slashing it at him. I think he knows how to use his body just fine. Sorry for the long comment.
bud389 MK is literally a game made by weebs. Not that you can't dislike NRS or Nintendo's handling of their fighting games, or who ever they farm out their fighting games for. ... I generally like mixes of Asian and American-European stuff, which is why I like Legend of Zelda, as a Japanese developed example. I also like Skullgirls as an attempt by Stateside people to make an anime fighter. Granted, Japanese games has often had "Western" on the payroll and contributing since Sega has existed if not earlier.
I don't agree, Robin's second attack of his Crouching 1 - 2 combo has his sword's movement barely visible, his crouching 2 lacks anticipation, and although his super has a great beginning and end, I find the middle part a bit... Awkward, like the devs weren't sure what to put there to paddle some time leading to the finish
Gonna have to look this one up myself, really liked Cody in SFIV and he animated quite nicely there, I've can't think of too many instances where animation downgrades for a character in a street fighter game.
*Looks through the old comments* "It's because MK is trying more realistic approach than the other fighting games!" and "It's only like that for the frames" Me: Lol what?
There's even a reason for the the overall limb size of the characters in SF series, it is that way so the players can see better when an attack is reaching, it has a function beyond aesthetics
@@sirjeanpepper2492 But 2D fighters also have small pauses after a hit which you can clearly see their pose, plus something like Guilty Gear didn't have oversized hands until Xrd, and while Xrd does use models instead of sprites, they try to make them look like sprites...
@@Lukmendes he means 3d in a gameplay sense. Just in general fighting games that have 3d gameplay have longer startup animations so the oversized hands aren't necessary for helping recognise attacks. Also gear doesn't rely on the hands as visual indicators except for slayer and kind of jam. It relies on the weapons the characters use that gives them distinct and recognisable attacks.
@SavageGrenadier25 I agree with you to the extent that MK's focus is on that over the top realism, however, I think it is more important for a fighting game to look good rather than fit it's style all too much. MKX in particular has the most style in the series, after Armageddon that is, but it's animation looks the least interesting or well made.
ONE THING 10:48 a "pistol whip" IS done with the barrel or in the case of a revolver, the frame closest to the cylinder. pistol whipping with the grip is done with slide action pistols because they are more prone to jamming when you potentially dent the slide by hitting a hard surface (skull) with it. if you have ever looked into it, you can see that actually the classic pistol whip with the revolver is a devastatingly powerful attack which can easily end up killing a man in 1 or 2 strikes (its on par with brass knuckles). the relatively light modern handguns are made with polymer frames and aren't nearly as solid in construction meaning that the ONLY way to do effective damage on par with the revolver pistol whip is to add spikes to the bottom of the mag (like in equilibrium) or in the case of Red Hood, he affixes a sort of taser to the bottom of the grip. that aside i agree with your points about lazy looking animations with very little follow-through or "weight" to them.
Generally you might use the grip of a revolver if, say... you ran out of ammo and don't have time to reload. In that instance you'd do WAY more harm with the heavier, bulkier end of the gun by using the barrel as a club's grip. Since Erron is using loaded guns for his pistol whip it'd be better to whip with the barrel or the frame. More or less I'm saying that you're right, just with a couple caveats for special circumstances like your gun being empty.
8:49 JESUS CHRIST, someone sat down and made this and looked at it in the end of the 3 minute session and thought "Yeah that looks fine, people who play NRS games lack critical view of things anyway."
Dr.Sir Bruce Armstrong Mother Fucker The Third when someone wishes the entire Team that worked on the last Jedi (with the exception of Mark Hamill) cancer that is laughable
I’m here commenting because I watched this video nearly 5 years ago when it came out and just suddenly remembered it while trying to find something to eat in the fridge…life’s strange.
The problem with Netherealm animation is that it isn't enough over-the-top, the realistic character and stage design is nice, but nothing else is realistic about their games, so they should drop the stiff and uninspired realistic animation and go for something more exaggerated and stylized.
but relatively realistic martial arts has almost always been their calling card. Back in the 2D games, Midway would mo-cap the characters using real martial artists. Heck, they wanted Van Damme to mo-cap Johnny Cage. The gritter fighting style (sans special moves) was part of what separated MK from SF back in the day.
Quadraxis This has always been miku biggest gripe with the MK series as a whole, since it's inception. I can't get over the stiff as a board animations.
To me, NRS games are an e-sports to watch, and the beautiful realistic designs make their games the only fighting games I _can_ watch. VF, SC, SF, Tekken, SSB all look laughable to me. I hope they never follow the line you suggested.
DUDE! Have you seen MK11 official story trailer? Looks like they watched your stuff about animations and all this rant about Erron Black. Don't know much about animation quality, but I am goddam sure they gave him oversized guns instead of real size revolvers. But hey- that's a start, amirite?
To everybody that says "who cares about animations" (in a videongame lol) keep in mind that its just like having a good movie with a shitty cast. It can ruin the movie. And for video games that are more based on animations it can ruin the games aswell. It looks like NRS is improving in the animations department as seen with Redhood! Gives me more hope for MK11
I say who cares because he literally gives no reason for why the animations are bad. All of his complaints on the stances are subjective statements. Saying cowboys have a specific stance is so dumb that I can’t even take that seriously. Especially when he goes on to say that he would make his stance like a SF character who isn’t even a cowboy. That’s a whole contradiction. Saying his revolvers are too small, is again, a subjective statement & he bases this on games that aren’t even fighters, where hit boxes are way more important. He compares to Chris from MVC3 but MVC has a more cartoon-ish art style, this is an argument made based in pure opinion. Saying his shooting animation is too fast is, you guessed it, a subjective statement. The move is fast because it’s supposed to be advantageous for the user. An animations frame data is more important than his subjective idea of the animation in this case because he can only make an argument of opinion, not fact. This is a video game that completely ignores physics & realism to a degree. Comparing his guns to real guns is ridiculous. We don’t compare guns in a FPS to real guns, & those claim to be realistic. See how easy it is to pull an argument by loosely comparing 2 things that are only similar because they have guns? That’s what this whole video is.
Dude, nice irony and strawmen you have there, going for a yard sale? :^] You're hopping around the main statements in the video too hard, the comparison between Erron and the SF character was to show his idea of a clear pose and how you can expand with better animation from that point onwards. Also "Saying his revolvers are too small, is again, a subjective statement" it's a yes and a no at the same time, you might like the smaller guns, or you might like bigger guns yes, but looking at the MKX gameplay you can clearly see that more saturated and a bit bigger guns would've made more justice to the gunslinger stance, there is almost no point in him hitting people with the guns when he looks like he could do an equal job even without them. A lot of animation critique could be seen as subjective because it's based on visual examination, but you're not going anywhere with the conversation if all you do is complain on the subjectivity and decide to strawman on every point, you didn't even tell your own ideas on how he could develop his thinking on animation, nor did you compare SP DW's comments and ideas to your own and the existing media, to create a more clear and analytical outcome for your own comment of his critique.
vili rantala This is a comment section. Not a critique the critique section. If I cared to actually help develop his thinking on animation, my points would still hold true. In fighting games, frame data is more important than animation. This is not debatable. I'm not saying animation isn't important because it is, but on to my "strawmen" The SF pose is the exact same. He wasn't using the pose as saying how you can "expand with better animation". It's literally the same pose. He even says "motion comes from his shooting arm, so I'd like to highlight that back arm".... So Erron Black has a shooting arm now? I thought he used 2 guns. Now that we're debating this, in hindsight, this would seem like a cover up for blatantly copying the SF pose after claiming cowboys have a specific stance, then taking the stance from someone that isn't a cowboy, but i'll give him the benefit of the doubt & say that he just likes that pose. Bigger guns is purely subjective & you even go on to make a subjective statement, while trying to state it as a fact. "looking at the MKX gameplay you can clearly see that more saturated & a bit bigger guns would've made more justice to the gunslinger stance" yet his examples in the video are implying that he wants "telegraphed poses so you can see where (s)he's firing" The point of the gunslinger stance is him having quick firing attacks. He has some really damaging combos involving those attacks. If they would have made them slow & telegraphed then his Gunsliger variation would be the revolver equivalent of the Marksman variation. Slow firing, telegraphed shots. Have you played MKX? I have. At a competitive level. The Gunslinger variation wouldn't even be the same or as good if it had "telegraphed shots" & slower animations.
Woah, this is pretty useful and informative for my project, I didn't even realise stuff like this was important. Thanks man, just shows I need to pay more attention
I can't believe that this character was animated by a development company that has been making fighting games for over two decades. It's a sad day when a cheap anime fighter with a poverty budget has better animation than a triple-A fighter like MKX.
because when people see things they don't like they claim it's lazy and act as if game companies are dictators rather than just... not buying games they dislike
one ring to rule the magicarp What if they like it and want it to improve and acknowledge its flaws by constructive criticism nowadays with information so widespread we make our own entertainment if we don’t bitch and complain nothing changes stop being a close minded five year old
close minded 5 year old? really? name calling because I say something you disagree with? honestly, I have to agree, calling people out on bullshit is important, however this is different, this isn't some company that is trying to squeeze every last penny out of you, it's a company that is working on a budget, apealing to the masses, and focusing on making a good game as opposed to making the game an unplayable peice of trash wearing make-up. Yes you have the right to critique, but should you really treat telling a large company that they did animation in a way you didn't like, as if it were a problem like EA squezzing it's customers dry?
Micolash Host Of The Nightmare Nitpicking? Mate animation and character designs are some of the more important aspect of a fighting game, only after depth, complexity and balance.
If you know anything about Erron Black's character, you can get a better idea of what NRS' intentions were with his idle animation. While Erron Black is by all means serious, he's also taunting, and never seems to be trying his hardest. He doesn't care. That's the vibe I get from his animations, he has his hand near the revolver just to be ready, but he stands very relaxed as opposed to being tense. I wouldn't even go as far as to call him a cowboy. He's really just a mercenary who uses 'cowboy' equipment. He doesn't act like a traditional cowboy at all. He's a bit more like Kano but more serious.
In your own perspective that is. He could either be a cowboy or a mercenary. But the fact is, Netherrealms failed BOTH of them. Oh wait. He's a guy with a gun. Still fail.
As much as I love MK I gotta agree with the analysis here. Erron Black was my most anticipated new character but for some reason I just felt like something was off while playing him. You made it abundantly clear what that thing was. I think this channel is very valuable as it just goes to show you how important animations are and what aesthetics can do to enhance a games experience
inb4 People complain that animation principals shouldn't apply to MK and that its bad animations are somehow a good thing. All when Netherealms shows that they can create good animations for Injustice 2.
It's amazing how not only did the MK team learn NOTHING from Erron Black, but somehow made his godawful animation look decent in comparison to Peacemaker.
Happy Chaos nails some of this with his casual stance and the fact that his own revolver has a massive frame where you can immediately spot it anywhere
He's got the point, and how can you deal even a little amount of damage on a rocky character like tremor with a tiny guns...it makes no sense... sure if those guns are big enough like red hoods then definitely it'll work...
3:00 Okay, I'm sorry for this but Nash's stance here is generally horrible and not just in terms of a fighting stance. This is really. We're supposed to be sold on the fact he's a trained Ex-Marine, yeah? I can tell you as someone who is versed in basic army combatives and basic kung fu, that this is REALLY bad right here.
If you follow Street Fighter, M.Bison killed Nash. This version of Nash is a resurrected zombie type cyborg. The original Nash used the typical boxing fighting stance, but Cyborg Nash is a broken representation of what he once was.
Plus it's bad to use that as a reference for Erron's stance cuz anyone who ever even attempted to quick draw will tell you that it's basically impossible pulling out the gun in that stance. The actual MKX one, while maybe not being super visible, is way more accurate. This one seems more like a teen trying to act cool
The only problem with that stance you suggested, it's ergonomically difficult to quick draw from that position. Any quick draw pro will tell you that hand should start below the gun so you can pull the weapon out while bringing your arm up at the same time
yes. And most porn actors get stiff backs from a lot of the fancy positions. However, they look more interesting. That is the issue here- proper gun stances are boring for fighting games. it is kind of the selling point of guns as a weapon- they are ultra fast and hard to read, so it is impossible to react to them. But the needs of a fighting game are contrary to reality- you want everything to be highly visible so people can read the patterns and counter them. thus, many moves need the characters to take overt, visually distinct actions and tells in order to allow the players to read them well.
Tubby Lumpkins SugarPunch specifically argued the opposite: in fighting games, being cool is way more important than being realistic. He really stressed that point in his Injustice 2 video, I suggest you take a look at it
I usually don't leave comments, but i just had to for this, because there was something bugging me about your videos and I just now figured exactly what. I feel you are definitely right on some of the problematic animations of mortal kombat, but the majority of your arguments felt to me like personal hangups. I felt this was most evident when you would show an animation, and then tell us what was supposedly wrong with it as if it should have been obvious. This clearly works with the ones that are actually problematic like Erron's command grab, but others, even as you're telling us what's wrong with it, seem fine. His idle stance for instance supposedly lacks tension and leans too far forward, but i feel the forward lean creates a sense of looking for an opening as if taking a literal closer look, and the lack of tension portrays his level of calm and self assuredness, both of which are personality/fight traits of Erron. It's one of the few idle poses i actually noticed and was impressed by in the game where most just kind of existed without my paying attention. I similarly never had any problems visually tracking his "too small" guns. I tried to keep an open mind and think im maybe looking at mk and erron through rose tinted glasses but the ending king of affirmed my suspicions when you compared red hood to Erron. You praise Red hood for "properly" pistol whipping with the bottom of his gun, but holding a gun by the barrel and whipping with the handle is a mostly Hollywood invention. It's difficult to switch between the two holds of the gun and there is a chance of a missfire which if you're holding your guns like red hood could easily hit you. Erron black actually pistol whips realistically as proper military pistol whipping involves hitting with the side of or top of the gun, and even when the bottom is used, a proper ready to fire pistol grip is maintained. Re-watching your videos, i have actually found many of your complaints stem from things not being right, when they're actually not hollywood enough, and While its fine to put some Hollywood in your game (lord knows there's plenty in mortal kombat), its unfair to criticize proper as improper because you didn't do your research. You have, after all, in multiple videos stated netherrealm should do theirs. Further on, extremely over sized guns are fine for scifi/fatasy guns, but guns that are supposed to be even slightly realistic/modern and are are only kind of oversized i feel look silly, unless the inflation is so slight it's unnoticable. You praise Red Hood's over sized guns for looking better than Errons realistically proportioned ones, but I feel Red Hood's guns look clunky and ridiculous which is actually one of my major hang ups with him and other gun wielders in injustice. It's ok that you prefer over sized guns, but i don't think its fair to claim your preference is objectively better than mine or someone else's, which once again, re-watching your videos, is a recurring theme. Your videos are strongest when you use objective facts to point out flaws in the animation, but the rest of your complaints are subjective opinions, presented as objective facts and i think that's my biggest problem with them. Then again this is way overblown and most people (hopefully not including you) will "too long didn't read"
I know what I think looks bad and what i don't, I know the difference between an opinion and a fact, and i apparently know more about guns and gun use than sugarpunch design works.
Thank you. Throughout this video, it all feels like he just personally doesn't like the animation in this game, and that's fine. But that is not the way he presents it as.
So you think an alternate way to do the same thing is better. You also think your way would make someone, who some people feel already looks sober, look sober. Well that sounds like an opinion to me, but I may be confused again. If I'm not confused though (I'm not by the way) the only objective thing he said about bigger guns is they're easier to track. Easier to track doesn't mean objectively better for gameplay. Red Hood's guns are as easy as they need to be to track. Dual bazookas would be easier to track, but that doesn't mean Red Hood's guns were hard to read to begin with. So yes Red Hood's guns are easier to track, but Erron's weren't hard to track to begin with. Even if they were, that's not necessarily a bad thing. Some moves in fighting games are good because they're subtle or hard to read. The easier a move is to track, the easier it is to defend against. Bigger guns, therefore, are objectively better for the defender but actually objectively worse for the attacker. Since most of Erron's "hard to read" gun moves don't pay off in huge damage, I think it would be fair for them to be hard to read. That last sentence was just my opinion though. Even your statement, gameplay is "always more important than aesthetic realism," is an opinion. The huge popularity of very realistic looking and very samey gameplay AAA games is proof of that. This brings me back to my original point anyway. As originally stated, my problem with these videos is he presents opinion as though it were obvious fact. Even you conceded Aesthetic opinion is allowed, but re-watch Sugarpunch's videos. Many MANY of his complaints are of aesthetic opinions, and while he does put some facts behind some of his conclusions, others are just stated matter-of-factly, and others still are based on misconceptions of Hollywood and realism.
Yeah, instead of scrapping the concept right away, i'm making attempt to improve it. I've never seen regular human character in any fighting game swing back and forth like that and if he was sober, it would be conterproductive. Hell, it would be fine if he actually was drunk, but none of his lines or fighting moves indicate that, which makes it look out of place. Easier to track means more clarity, which in turn means less frustration and more gameplay options. No one asked to give Red Hood dual bazookas. Everyone agreed his guns are easy to read so i don't know where you coming from with this one. Yes Erron's guns are barely visible and yes, this is a bad thing, because guns are core of his design. That's true only in single player games. In any multiplayer game If character has hard to read or poorly animated moves, people playing against that character will consider him "not fun" and thus playing against this kind of character becomes frustrating guessing game, which detracts from the experience. Exept they aren't hard to read, because they deal little damage - they deal little damage because they are hard to read. Yeah and which one of these popular games compromised their gameplay for aesthetics? Core gameplay of games like CoD and BF is excellent. Battlefield 1 even compromised historical accuracy in terms of weapons and armors just for the sake of gameplay, so it will be more enjoyable to play. Overwatch has nothing to do with realism and it's still very popular, because of it's gameplay. Witcher 3 got downgraded between it's showcase in 2014 and release in 2015 and aside from few people no one complained, because gameplay was simply cathartic. In Dota and League of Legends they change character or ability appearance to make them more readable instead of changing their gameplay functions to accommodate their aesthetics. PUBG and Minecraft are ugly as shit and yet they became extremely popular, because of their gameplay, while gorgeous looking games like Ryse: Son of Rome and The Order 1886 flopped, because they were severely lacking in it. So yeah i would say gameplay is more important than aesthetics - as a fact. And definetely more important than realism. Maybe because they are for the most part obvious facts. He presents MK and Injustice animations as bad, because they are bad. It doesn't take a genius to realise that these animations are just awful and they look doubly awful in realistic looking game, because most people who ever tried punch or kick will notice that it's NOT how it works. He explains in details what is exactly wrong with them. I watched his MK, Injustice, KoF and SF videos and it's very legit criticism. I don't see why criticism based on aesthetics is a problem. There's a difference between criticizing aesthetics in terms of gameplay and in terms of presentation. For example Ed's outfit in SFV in my opinion looks cool, but there's no denial that in terms of gameplay it's horrible. So where are those misconceptions you're talking about?
I'm glad you used the great animations of Miguel in Tekken to contrast against the shitty animations of Erron Black in Mortal Kombat. You should really do a video analyzing why Tekken's animations are so damn good.
I respect your opinion, but I disagree. I thought Erron Black was particularly good in the animation. You do make good points though, but you can clearly see the recoil when he's using his guns. And idk about you, but I can see his guns mid combo. It's fast yes, but many things in games are.
The gun size is one of the most insignificant, nitpick complaint I've ever seen. His gun size is just fine, because while MK is ridiculous it has some grounds in reality in terms of the style it's always had and that's what makes it special. Overly large revolvers or ridiculously overexaggrrated stances wouldn't work for Erron Black simply for the fact that in much similar styles the cowboy is cool by not doing much at all.
I can agree with you on that, though I see his point with why larger gun size would express the guns better and show that they're actually there in his hands. But I think that they could've done better without making his guns larger. That is, as he stressed before, key frames. If they had to cut down the amount of frames to demonstrate how quick the attacks were, at least make each frame express the attack more as if you were drawing it on paper. You wouldn't just draw a blur of motion, or the moment just before he fires the gun while he's in an awkward stance.
Here's what I think: If your only criticisms are nitpicks, then it means most of everything is fine and you went for the very minor stuff. In other words, useless.
There's still ways to make his gun stand-out, like colors or poses, the point was that most of the time you can't tell what he's doing with his guns and making it bigger is just one way to fix it Plus how is a slightly larger gun sillier than Kung Lao's hat or Jax and his metal arms, hell one of the characters is a fusion of three cyborgs and I'm only talking about weapons here I'm not even touching on the character designs (except Triborg but he is the weapon), it's not made to be at least somewhat realistic in any way
*complains about game not showing cartoony and obvious enough recoil* *immediately shows gunfire with unnoticeable recoil unless you slow it down majorly as an example of good recoil*
I think it would've been completely badass if Erron brought some giant revolvers like the .500 S&W, tossing them around and firing them like they're nothing. Not only would it help with seeing them, but it would also help with his general level of coolness
7:12 Who is this? It's quite an interesting visual design for a character, so I might get this game seeing as I usually pick characters based upon their aesthetic.
Do you have a link or anything similar about the "5 degree rule"? Very good video by the way, I've always hated the way most MK characters are animated and how little personality they have during their attack animations.
This is a great video... I also feel that the stances are kinda poor because I think they use motion capture for them and edit them after... if I were posing my characters, I would pose in a natural martial arts stance so I am comfortable in performing the stance and attacks. Most of the stances in this game would make me tired and sore trying to perform them
Since Erron Black is returning in MK 11, will you make a video on him? I think it would very interesting to review his animations in a new game and compare them to the older ones :)
At 5:27 it says his name is Face but I couldn't find Face nor Freed so idk what game they are from Edit: Someone in the comments said the game is Battle Fantasia
Actually, with an old fashioned revolver pistol whipping would be most effective with the barrel, because of the long thin shape, so that point isn't really valid. Everything else you said makes sense though.
To be fair, in the story mode, Erron Black is the biggest idiot ever. I still remember that embarassing scene when he tried to shoot Kung Jin who was way far in the back, but Takeda was in the way, so Erron Black used a big brain move - he....charged head-on, with his pistols facing forward. The worst thing is that Takeda could've easily grabbed him, run all the way to the other side so there's even more distance between Erron and Kung Jin, but instead all he does is go for Erron's legs, make him lose balance then have Erron start on the left side of the screen. That scene was just moronic, no matter how you put it.
Some MK animations bothered me since the first time. Now watching these videos I realize that there are a lot of flaws with NetherRealm animations. It looks like they tell inexperienced actors to do mocap with no supervision and then they throw those animations into the game as they are.
Looks like nitpicking to me to the point where you tell yourself aboyt 5 degree rule, and there clearly 5 or more in animation but you say opposite. His guns look cool tho, not bulky and clunky. In his grab move its not recoil of a gun, he draw the hammer (because he have single-action revolvers, and its faster and easier to do by changing arm position). This animation is actualy realy clever, its create shooting temp (so he doesnt shoot 2 guns at once) creates dynamic AND hide that there no pulling hammer animation.
Erron's standing animation is actually quite fine. Honestly the one you suggested is quite ridiculous and would make the character painful to look at. The standing idle animation looks like the character is using a weaver stance, a classic shooting stance that gives best accessibility to your firearm in a ready stance. If you were to shoot from the stance that you had shown, your center of balance would be way off and you wouldn't be able to return your firearm to the position from where it fired from. The standoff position is, as well, an alright thing. They just modified as isosceles stance and put him in a regular quickdraw pose, hand below holster to ensure the fastest draw possible. The animations for the gun firing are quick because someone that has practiced and practiced with drawing and firing can do so in very small fractions of seconds, if you've ever seen recreational shooting. As well as the weapons not displaying recoil correctly, it's more of a homage to spaghetti westerns, which have actors waving guns around and adding effects in post rather than using blanks. ( ruclips.net/video/TbvMgLDVUd4/видео.html ) is a good example of that. As well as his brawling animations being more true to life than you might think because with brawling styles, it's wild power with no technique. So the power has nowhere to go except mainly into the journey to the target, rather than the target itself. Saloon brawling is much like street brawling and "Put 'em Up" (the 2,1,1,2,2 move) exemplifies that style of fighting more than everything else. It's wild, has no center of balance and is leading with his arms instead of using a full range of motion, having his legs being forced to catch up with the rest. That's an actual thing you will see in street brawling. Honestly I would say just stick to basic textbook animation principles.
So after the reveal of Erron Black today in MK11, I gotta say....I think they listened to you bro. Like about EVERYTHING!! Even down to the new stance!
To be fair, Snolf is right. Regardless of what he said in the video, the pose he designed is ridicoulous. Way too tense, exaggerated, and unfitting for a cowboy character.
About Erron Black's throw animation: if it looks like the recoil is fake, that's because it is. It's not the motion of a guy firing guns, it's the motion of a motion-captured actor miming gunfire while waving prop guns. It's a symptom of Netherrealm's over-reliance on mocap.
The point is? It still looks fake as fuck with his revolvers looking like they aren't shooting anything
Well, duh. That's an established fact, I was providing an explanation for it.
I think the point is "this looks like kids flailing nerf guns because it basically is just kids flailing nerf guns". If they worked from scratch, they would have more ability to consciously add those small details over the hours and hours spent making animations. But no, netherrealms says "just rely upon the 5 seconds of actions of a mo cap actor with a nerf gun"
actually if they just used a real gun and had the actor fire at a gel block, they could capture REAL recoil and it would look amazing!
@@Felix.Fictus But they'd have to actually use their money to hire someone who actually knows how to proffesionally use guns. They were probably cutting corners with some things in the game. (Not defending, just thinking of an explanation).
That feeling when Hol Horse, who technically doesn't even carry a gun, has cooler gun posturing than Erron Black
Joshua Madoc cooler gun posturing and doing more with his “quick draw” than Erron
And he uses aim bot so it doesn’t even matter what his posture is lmao
Well it's jojos, so it'll be quite strange if there's no good poses.
@@KashewKiddo3826 the thing with Hol Horse is that he is doing the posture because he likes cowboys. I am not kidding , Araki said that Hol Horse pretty much nerfed Emperor by been a cowboy poser.
You know, Hol Horse’s key poses might look weird to people who can’t see Stands.
This perfectly explains why Jason is one of the few characters that feels any good to play as for me in MKXL, the animations actually fit him unlike the rest of the characters
I see his weird animations when I watch MKX gameplay and then realise how Jason isn't meant to know much about moving his body in the most effective way
@@carlosuzaier5858 He is tho
@@scottyj8655 If we're talking about the Remake Jason.
Or the Video Game Jason, much as he is supposed to be mobile, cause Gameplay Reasons, it still feels... *like a Big Guy swinging Weapons.*
Not sure how to phrase that.
@@Berd-Wasted. Jason has known how to use a crossbow since part 3, always puts bodies in weird jumpscare spots at the end of each movie, built a shrine for his mom in part 2 and that cabin in general was built by him, hell in part 4 he constantly tries to grab the machete out of that girl's hand but keeps hesitating because she's slashing it at him. I think he knows how to use his body just fine. Sorry for the long comment.
@@scottyj8655 Woah.
Honestly, I know more of Monster Jason _(Later Parts)_ than of Human Jason, so I apologize for my lack of Information.
9:48 When your badass cowboy mimics Luigi's dash attack, you know you've fucked up.
You know you've fucked up if your character mimic's an attack from a party game
I'd argue the melee fanbase is like 10 times as intelligent as the average NRS game player, even if they would be half the age
Liiinusen Do you mean the NRS player base, or Smash's player base? Both are applicable and that's definitely sad.
Weebs are cancer
bud389
MK is literally a game made by weebs.
Not that you can't dislike NRS or Nintendo's handling of their fighting games, or who ever they farm out their fighting games for.
... I generally like mixes of Asian and American-European stuff, which is why I like Legend of Zelda, as a Japanese developed example.
I also like Skullgirls as an attempt by Stateside people to make an anime fighter.
Granted, Japanese games has often had "Western" on the payroll and contributing since Sega has existed if not earlier.
"you barely even notice he even has guns in his hands"
I actually did not notice them at all before the slowmotion kicked in.
I think robin in injustice 2 is the best animated character in all netherealm games. Its just a shame that his walking animation is laughable.
Kirby C I love his walk. It's like he's taunting u just by walking. Fits the character since hs taunts a lot
My main, all his animations look taunting and skillfull
His walk is lit. Swaggering around with a heavy sword
I don't agree, Robin's second attack of his Crouching 1 - 2 combo has his sword's movement barely visible, his crouching 2 lacks anticipation, and although his super has a great beginning and end, I find the middle part a bit... Awkward, like the devs weren't sure what to put there to paddle some time leading to the finish
@@magicmanscott40k it should be cool, but it's speed up. It's too much 😂
Hol horse is teh best fighting game cowboy
a fellow Jojo HFTF player
Hell yes.
Boingo or J Guille
That's true but as a character I prefer Mista Guido a 10000 times
But he’s not a cowboy tho
You should do Cody! He has some really odd animation issues. Which is rare for SFV.
2 years still not coming out
It's him!!! It's the man!!!
Gonna have to look this one up myself, really liked Cody in SFIV and he animated quite nicely there, I've can't think of too many instances where animation downgrades for a character in a street fighter game.
@@kenanwallace2124 sakura comes to mind.
*Looks through the old comments* "It's because MK is trying more realistic approach than the other fighting games!" and "It's only like that for the frames"
Me: Lol what?
He’s nitpicking. Idc his stance isn’t THAT bad
One minute: they’re moving around too much
Next minute: the stance is BORING
@@anthonyj6092 It's almost like multiple extremes can exist and that NRS feels the need to always go to them.
@@anthonyj6092 I just love that you used Lil yachty as your profile picture just to further show your stupidity
firstname Lastname lmao my profile picture determines my IQ level. Fuck off asshurt weaboo.
There's even a reason for the the overall limb size of the characters in SF series, it is that way so the players can see better when an attack is reaching, it has a function beyond aesthetics
yeah, but it's not a requirement, look at DOA for example
DoA and other 3D fighters don't require that because the average attacks take more frames and is in 3D, whcih makes them more distinct.
@@sirjeanpepper2492 But 2D fighters also have small pauses after a hit which you can clearly see their pose, plus something like Guilty Gear didn't have oversized hands until Xrd, and while Xrd does use models instead of sprites, they try to make them look like sprites...
That was not a problem with the same characters moving even faster in Marvel vs Capcom 3
@@Lukmendes he means 3d in a gameplay sense. Just in general fighting games that have 3d gameplay have longer startup animations so the oversized hands aren't necessary for helping recognise attacks. Also gear doesn't rely on the hands as visual indicators except for slayer and kind of jam. It relies on the weapons the characters use that gives them distinct and recognisable attacks.
Video: makes actual great points with evidence
Salty MK fans: “nitpicking the video,” with no evidence
😑
@SavageGrenadier25 I agree with you to the extent that MK's focus is on that over the top realism, however, I think it is more important for a fighting game to look good rather than fit it's style all too much. MKX in particular has the most style in the series, after Armageddon that is, but it's animation looks the least interesting or well made.
@SavageGrenadier25 I guess so.
I'd still take an animation major's subjective opinion as a fair judgement though.
"you are nitpicking and biased, i win, bye bye"
MK fans: "These don't matter. The game is fun. You're just bad at it."
Sugar punch: "I'm an animator talking about animation."
ONE THING
10:48
a "pistol whip" IS done with the barrel or in the case of a revolver, the frame closest to the cylinder.
pistol whipping with the grip is done with slide action pistols because they are more prone to jamming when you potentially dent the slide by hitting a hard surface (skull) with it.
if you have ever looked into it, you can see that actually the classic pistol whip with the revolver is a devastatingly powerful attack which can easily end up killing a man in 1 or 2 strikes (its on par with brass knuckles).
the relatively light modern handguns are made with polymer frames and aren't nearly as solid in construction meaning that the ONLY way to do effective damage on par with the revolver pistol whip is to add spikes to the bottom of the mag (like in equilibrium) or in the case of Red Hood, he affixes a sort of taser to the bottom of the grip.
that aside i agree with your points about lazy looking animations with very little follow-through or "weight" to them.
Generally you might use the grip of a revolver if, say... you ran out of ammo and don't have time to reload. In that instance you'd do WAY more harm with the heavier, bulkier end of the gun by using the barrel as a club's grip. Since Erron is using loaded guns for his pistol whip it'd be better to whip with the barrel or the frame.
More or less I'm saying that you're right, just with a couple caveats for special circumstances like your gun being empty.
The music is so nostalgic. Great breakdown! I didn't even think about Chris' gun upscaling. When done correctly you don't even notice it.
8:49 JESUS CHRIST, someone sat down and made this and looked at it in the end of the 3 minute session and thought "Yeah that looks fine, people who play NRS games lack critical view of things anyway."
You should do more animation breakdowns, these are great!
No, they really aren't, look elsewhere for legitimate animation break downs.
bud389 would you care to share some videos :)
No, because he's just a troll.
T R I G U N
Dr.Sir Bruce Armstrong Mother Fucker The Third when someone wishes the entire Team that worked on the last Jedi (with the exception of Mark Hamill) cancer that is laughable
Why are his guns even that small? Romanticized guns are so much larger than his, so why do his revolvers look even smaller then some real life guns!?
Thank you for putting in Miguel at the fighting like a thug section. He was exactly who I was thinking about when you're talking about it
I’m here commenting because I watched this video nearly 5 years ago when it came out and just suddenly remembered it while trying to find something to eat in the fridge…life’s strange.
The problem with Netherealm animation is that it isn't enough over-the-top, the realistic character and stage design is nice, but nothing else is realistic about their games, so they should drop the stiff and uninspired realistic animation and go for something more exaggerated and stylized.
but relatively realistic martial arts has almost always been their calling card. Back in the 2D games, Midway would mo-cap the characters using real martial artists. Heck, they wanted Van Damme to mo-cap Johnny Cage. The gritter fighting style (sans special moves) was part of what separated MK from SF back in the day.
And in mortal kombat deception I am pretty sure they were using real martial art styles.
Quadraxis This has always been miku biggest gripe with the MK series as a whole, since it's inception. I can't get over the stiff as a board animations.
To me, NRS games are an e-sports to watch, and the beautiful realistic designs make their games the only fighting games I _can_ watch. VF, SC, SF, Tekken, SSB all look laughable to me. I hope they never follow the line you suggested.
Semyon Galtsev Yet it's one of the least watched fighting game out there. Hmmm
DUDE! Have you seen MK11 official story trailer? Looks like they watched your stuff about animations and all this rant about Erron Black. Don't know much about animation quality, but I am goddam sure they gave him oversized guns instead of real size revolvers. But hey- that's a start, amirite?
Dudensky yeah dude
He doesn’t have revolvers in his mk11 gameplay
@@zyco9188 well.... Wibbly Wobbly Timey Whimey stuff happens in the game so A version of him does and a Version doesn't have it.
This breakdown of Erron’s stance is amazing on so many levels.
To everybody that says "who cares about animations" (in a videongame lol) keep in mind that its just like having a good movie with a shitty cast. It can ruin the movie. And for video games that are more based on animations it can ruin the games aswell.
It looks like NRS is improving in the animations department as seen with Redhood! Gives me more hope for MK11
I say who cares because he literally gives no reason for why the animations are bad.
All of his complaints on the stances are subjective statements. Saying cowboys have a specific stance is so dumb that I can’t even take that seriously. Especially when he goes on to say that he would make his stance like a SF character who isn’t even a cowboy. That’s a whole contradiction.
Saying his revolvers are too small, is again, a subjective statement & he bases this on games that aren’t even fighters, where hit boxes are way more important. He compares to Chris from MVC3 but MVC has a more cartoon-ish art style, this is an argument made based in pure opinion.
Saying his shooting animation is too fast is, you guessed it, a subjective statement. The move is fast because it’s supposed to be advantageous for the user. An animations frame data is more important than his subjective idea of the animation in this case because he can only make an argument of opinion, not fact.
This is a video game that completely ignores physics & realism to a degree. Comparing his guns to real guns is ridiculous. We don’t compare guns in a FPS to real guns, & those claim to be realistic. See how easy it is to pull an argument by loosely comparing 2 things that are only similar because they have guns? That’s what this whole video is.
Dude, nice irony and strawmen you have there, going for a yard sale? :^]
You're hopping around the main statements in the video too hard, the comparison between Erron and the SF character was to show his idea of a clear pose and how you can expand with better animation from that point onwards. Also "Saying his revolvers are too small, is again, a subjective statement" it's a yes and a no at the same time, you might like the smaller guns, or you might like bigger guns yes, but looking at the MKX gameplay you can clearly see that more saturated and a bit bigger guns would've made more justice to the gunslinger stance, there is almost no point in him hitting people with the guns when he looks like he could do an equal job even without them.
A lot of animation critique could be seen as subjective because it's based on visual examination, but you're not going anywhere with the conversation if all you do is complain on the subjectivity and decide to strawman on every point, you didn't even tell your own ideas on how he could develop his thinking on animation, nor did you compare SP DW's comments and ideas to your own and the existing media, to create a more clear and analytical outcome for your own comment of his critique.
@Gerald Green youre full of shit lol. Thats all i have yo say to you.
vili rantala This is a comment section. Not a critique the critique section. If I cared to actually help develop his thinking on animation, my points would still hold true. In fighting games, frame data is more important than animation. This is not debatable. I'm not saying animation isn't important because it is, but on to my "strawmen"
The SF pose is the exact same. He wasn't using the pose as saying how you can "expand with better animation". It's literally the same pose. He even says "motion comes from his shooting arm, so I'd like to highlight that back arm".... So Erron Black has a shooting arm now? I thought he used 2 guns. Now that we're debating this, in hindsight, this would seem like a cover up for blatantly copying the SF pose after claiming cowboys have a specific stance, then taking the stance from someone that isn't a cowboy, but i'll give him the benefit of the doubt & say that he just likes that pose.
Bigger guns is purely subjective & you even go on to make a subjective statement, while trying to state it as a fact. "looking at the MKX gameplay you can clearly see that more saturated & a bit bigger guns would've made more justice to the gunslinger stance" yet his examples in the video are implying that he wants "telegraphed poses so you can see where (s)he's firing" The point of the gunslinger stance is him having quick firing attacks. He has some really damaging combos involving those attacks. If they would have made them slow & telegraphed then his Gunsliger variation would be the revolver equivalent of the Marksman variation. Slow firing, telegraphed shots. Have you played MKX? I have. At a competitive level. The Gunslinger variation wouldn't even be the same or as good if it had "telegraphed shots" & slower animations.
SPBN0VA Well, I guess that's one way to say "I have no argument so i'll just try as best as I can to discredit what you said"
0:13 and in Canada we have very polite hockey players
One favor Canada. Get your geese to be polite.
Woah, this is pretty useful and informative for my project, I didn't even realise stuff like this was important. Thanks man, just shows I need to pay more attention
I can't believe that this character was animated by a development company that has been making fighting games for over two decades. It's a sad day when a cheap anime fighter with a poverty budget has better animation than a triple-A fighter like MKX.
ikr? they're deliberately being lazy because they know they can get away with it
because when people see things they don't like they claim it's lazy and act as if game companies are dictators rather than just... not buying games they dislike
one ring to rule the magicarp What if they like it and want it to improve and acknowledge its flaws by constructive criticism nowadays with information so widespread we make our own entertainment if we don’t bitch and complain nothing changes stop being a close minded five year old
close minded 5 year old? really? name calling because I say something you disagree with? honestly, I have to agree, calling people out on bullshit is important, however this is different, this isn't some company that is trying to squeeze every last penny out of you, it's a company that is working on a budget, apealing to the masses, and focusing on making a good game as opposed to making the game an unplayable peice of trash wearing make-up. Yes you have the right to critique, but should you really treat telling a large company that they did animation in a way you didn't like, as if it were a problem like EA squezzing it's customers dry?
Micolash Host Of The Nightmare Nitpicking? Mate animation and character designs are some of the more important aspect of a fighting game, only after depth, complexity and balance.
If you know anything about Erron Black's character, you can get a better idea of what NRS' intentions were with his idle animation. While Erron Black is by all means serious, he's also taunting, and never seems to be trying his hardest. He doesn't care. That's the vibe I get from his animations, he has his hand near the revolver just to be ready, but he stands very relaxed as opposed to being tense.
I wouldn't even go as far as to call him a cowboy. He's really just a mercenary who uses 'cowboy' equipment. He doesn't act like a traditional cowboy at all. He's a bit more like Kano but more serious.
He even said in history mode and in some match quotes that he works for the guy who pay better, he mostly dont give a fuck about...anything
@@krendo11 actually probable he was un the cowboy era.
He Is more than 150 years old
In your own perspective that is. He could either be a cowboy or a mercenary. But the fact is, Netherrealms failed BOTH of them. Oh wait. He's a guy with a gun. Still fail.
Andon Amparano
Still more reasonable and made more sense than your dumbass though.
As much as I love MK I gotta agree with the analysis here.
Erron Black was my most anticipated new character but for some reason I just felt like something was off while playing him.
You made it abundantly clear what that thing was.
I think this channel is very valuable as it just goes to show you how important animations are and what aesthetics can do to enhance a games experience
coming back to this, id love to see one done on Happy chaos. not only does he get good animations, its arcsys good for that gunslinger
Loving the Wildarms music throughout. More importantly, these are fantastic comments and are great for anyone trying to get into animation.
Ha I thought that was Wild Arms. What great music.
inb4 People complain that animation principals shouldn't apply to MK and that its bad animations are somehow a good thing. All when Netherealms shows that they can create good animations for Injustice 2.
> good animations for Injustice 2
Can you cite some examples? Because honestly I can't come up with any, atm.
Hooded Streetmonk I think some of Swamp Thing's are ok, but I think what he means is the facials exclusively.
Hurr durr. they're paying tribute to the old shitty animations, etc etc.
If you are talking about facial animations,Yes. But gameplay still quite bad.
Facial captures for cutscenes
Coming back after the peacemaker trailer
It's amazing how not only did the MK team learn NOTHING from Erron Black, but somehow made his godawful animation look decent in comparison to Peacemaker.
Happy Chaos nails some of this with his casual stance and the fact that his own revolver has a massive frame where you can immediately spot it anywhere
He's got the point, and how can you deal even a little amount of damage on a rocky character like tremor with a tiny guns...it makes no sense... sure if those guns are big enough like red hoods then definitely it'll work...
"Guns not in mainstream fighting games"
Kurtis Stryker
Introducing him made MK fall out of the mainstream for years, so that kind of proves the point.
3:00 Okay, I'm sorry for this but Nash's stance here is generally horrible and not just in terms of a fighting stance. This is really. We're supposed to be sold on the fact he's a trained Ex-Marine, yeah? I can tell you as someone who is versed in basic army combatives and basic kung fu, that this is REALLY bad right here.
If you follow Street Fighter, M.Bison killed Nash. This version of Nash is a resurrected zombie type cyborg. The original Nash used the typical boxing fighting stance, but Cyborg Nash is a broken representation of what he once was.
Plus it's bad to use that as a reference for Erron's stance cuz anyone who ever even attempted to quick draw will tell you that it's basically impossible pulling out the gun in that stance. The actual MKX one, while maybe not being super visible, is way more accurate. This one seems more like a teen trying to act cool
The only problem with that stance you suggested, it's ergonomically difficult to quick draw from that position. Any quick draw pro will tell you that hand should start below the gun so you can pull the weapon out while bringing your arm up at the same time
yes. And most porn actors get stiff backs from a lot of the fancy positions. However, they look more interesting. That is the issue here- proper gun stances are boring for fighting games. it is kind of the selling point of guns as a weapon- they are ultra fast and hard to read, so it is impossible to react to them. But the needs of a fighting game are contrary to reality- you want everything to be highly visible so people can read the patterns and counter them. thus, many moves need the characters to take overt, visually distinct actions and tells in order to allow the players to read them well.
Lemeres but doesn't that conflict with the logic that SugarPunch set up which is that animation is only good when it's realistic?
Tubby Lumpkins SugarPunch specifically argued the opposite: in fighting games, being cool is way more important than being realistic. He really stressed that point in his Injustice 2 video, I suggest you take a look at it
MegamanX195 i watched the same video and he said animation is about capturing reality.
@@tubbylumpkins4885 it's more about the feel of reality than reality itself i guess
Do one on Erron black now. Big time improvements!
I usually don't leave comments, but i just had to for this, because there was something bugging me about your videos and I just now figured exactly what. I feel you are definitely right on some of the problematic animations of mortal kombat, but the majority of your arguments felt to me like personal hangups. I felt this was most evident when you would show an animation, and then tell us what was supposedly wrong with it as if it should have been obvious. This clearly works with the ones that are actually problematic like Erron's command grab, but others, even as you're telling us what's wrong with it, seem fine. His idle stance for instance supposedly lacks tension and leans too far forward, but i feel the forward lean creates a sense of looking for an opening as if taking a literal closer look, and the lack of tension portrays his level of calm and self assuredness, both of which are personality/fight traits of Erron. It's one of the few idle poses i actually noticed and was impressed by in the game where most just kind of existed without my paying attention. I similarly never had any problems visually tracking his "too small" guns. I tried to keep an open mind and think im maybe looking at mk and erron through rose tinted glasses but the ending king of affirmed my suspicions when you compared red hood to Erron. You praise Red hood for "properly" pistol whipping with the bottom of his gun, but holding a gun by the barrel and whipping with the handle is a mostly Hollywood invention. It's difficult to switch between the two holds of the gun and there is a chance of a missfire which if you're holding your guns like red hood could easily hit you. Erron black actually pistol whips realistically as proper military pistol whipping involves hitting with the side of or top of the gun, and even when the bottom is used, a proper ready to fire pistol grip is maintained. Re-watching your videos, i have actually found many of your complaints stem from things not being right, when they're actually not hollywood enough, and While its fine to put some Hollywood in your game (lord knows there's plenty in mortal kombat), its unfair to criticize proper as improper because you didn't do your research. You have, after all, in multiple videos stated netherrealm should do theirs. Further on, extremely over sized guns are fine for scifi/fatasy guns, but guns that are supposed to be even slightly realistic/modern and are are only kind of oversized i feel look silly, unless the inflation is so slight it's unnoticable. You praise Red Hood's over sized guns for looking better than Errons realistically proportioned ones, but I feel Red Hood's guns look clunky and ridiculous which is actually one of my major hang ups with him and other gun wielders in injustice. It's ok that you prefer over sized guns, but i don't think its fair to claim your preference is objectively better than mine or someone else's, which once again, re-watching your videos, is a recurring theme. Your videos are strongest when you use objective facts to point out flaws in the animation, but the rest of your complaints are subjective opinions, presented as objective facts and i think that's my biggest problem with them. Then again this is way overblown and most people (hopefully not including you) will "too long didn't read"
I know what I think looks bad and what i don't, I know the difference between an opinion and a fact, and i apparently know more about guns and gun use than sugarpunch design works.
Thank you. Throughout this video, it all feels like he just personally doesn't like the animation in this game, and that's fine. But that is not the way he presents it as.
So you think an alternate way to do the same thing is better. You also think your way would make someone, who some people feel already looks sober, look sober. Well that sounds like an opinion to me, but I may be confused again.
If I'm not confused though (I'm not by the way) the only objective thing he said about bigger guns is they're easier to track. Easier to track doesn't mean objectively better for gameplay.
Red Hood's guns are as easy as they need to be to track. Dual bazookas would be easier to track, but that doesn't mean Red Hood's guns were hard to read to begin with.
So yes Red Hood's guns are easier to track, but Erron's weren't hard to track to begin with. Even if they were, that's not necessarily a bad thing.
Some moves in fighting games are good because they're subtle or hard to read. The easier a move is to track, the easier it is to defend against. Bigger guns, therefore, are objectively better for the defender but actually objectively worse for the attacker.
Since most of Erron's "hard to read" gun moves don't pay off in huge damage, I think it would be fair for them to be hard to read. That last sentence was just my opinion though.
Even your statement, gameplay is "always more important than aesthetic realism," is an opinion. The huge popularity of very realistic looking and very samey gameplay AAA games is proof of that.
This brings me back to my original point anyway. As originally stated, my problem with these videos is he presents opinion as though it were obvious fact. Even you conceded Aesthetic opinion is allowed, but re-watch Sugarpunch's videos. Many MANY of his complaints are of aesthetic opinions, and while he does put some facts behind some of his conclusions, others are just stated matter-of-factly, and others still are based on misconceptions of Hollywood and realism.
Yeah, instead of scrapping the concept right away, i'm making attempt to improve it. I've never seen regular human character in any fighting game swing back and forth like that and if he was sober, it would be conterproductive. Hell, it would be fine if he actually was drunk, but none of his lines or fighting moves indicate that, which makes it look out of place.
Easier to track means more clarity, which in turn means less frustration and more gameplay options.
No one asked to give Red Hood dual bazookas. Everyone agreed his guns are easy to read so i don't know where you coming from with this one.
Yes Erron's guns are barely visible and yes, this is a bad thing, because guns are core of his design.
That's true only in single player games. In any multiplayer game If character has hard to read or poorly animated moves, people playing against that character will consider him "not fun" and thus playing against this kind of character becomes frustrating guessing game, which detracts from the experience.
Exept they aren't hard to read, because they deal little damage - they deal little damage because they are hard to read.
Yeah and which one of these popular games compromised their gameplay for aesthetics? Core gameplay of games like CoD and BF is excellent. Battlefield 1 even compromised historical accuracy in terms of weapons and armors just for the sake of gameplay, so it will be more enjoyable to play. Overwatch has nothing to do with realism and it's still very popular, because of it's gameplay. Witcher 3 got downgraded between it's showcase in 2014 and release in 2015 and aside from few people no one complained, because gameplay was simply cathartic. In Dota and League of Legends they change character or ability appearance to make them more readable instead of changing their gameplay functions to accommodate their aesthetics. PUBG and Minecraft are ugly as shit and yet they became extremely popular, because of their gameplay, while gorgeous looking games like Ryse: Son of Rome and The Order 1886 flopped, because they were severely lacking in it.
So yeah i would say gameplay is more important than aesthetics - as a fact. And definetely more important than realism.
Maybe because they are for the most part obvious facts. He presents MK and Injustice animations as bad, because they are bad. It doesn't take a genius to realise that these animations are just awful and they look doubly awful in realistic looking game, because most people who ever tried punch or kick will notice that it's NOT how it works. He explains in details what is exactly wrong with them. I watched his MK, Injustice, KoF and SF videos and it's very legit criticism. I don't see why criticism based on aesthetics is a problem. There's a difference between criticizing aesthetics in terms of gameplay and in terms of presentation.
For example Ed's outfit in SFV in my opinion looks cool, but there's no denial that in terms of gameplay it's horrible.
So where are those misconceptions you're talking about?
I agree while erron blacks pistol whip is harder to see you get this information from audio cues of the gun making a clink sound
OMG THAT WILD ARMS 3 BATTLE THEME SONG!! The nostalgia... 😍
Do more!! IDC what it is lol. Just DO more ANIMATION/DESIGN and FIGHTING GAME stuff.
Hey! Is that "Advanced Wind" from "Wild Arms 3" I'm hearing?
9:49, ROFLMAO, the middle school lunch rush!!
So I don’t know if you’ll see this but what do you think about Eron black in 11?
Okay I honestly thought that Erron's tackle-shoot thing was like... I didn't even realize that was supposed to be recoil.
3:30 Or "the reason why every single video game weapon is HUUUUUGE". At least when you deal with 3rd person stuff.
1:59 If you don't mind me asking, what game is the character on the far right from?
Arcana Heart series
@@Jackrost01Thanks!
I would like to see your opinion on the new Erron Black.
I applaud them, they pretty much fixed everything that was critiqued in this video.
He looks pretty alright actually, he is definitely cooler
"we see a lot of cowboys in our fiction"....shows japanese cartoon
More than once
that's Trigun, a classic anime made with western setting for the western demography.
Nothing wrong about cowboys being in Japanese anime. What's the fuss about?
@@alevtinamikhailov1537 I think it has to do with the "our" as the maker of this video is not japanese.
Probably a nitpick from the commenter
I'm glad you used the great animations of Miguel in Tekken to contrast against the shitty animations of Erron Black in Mortal Kombat. You should really do a video analyzing why Tekken's animations are so damn good.
I respect your opinion, but I disagree.
I thought Erron Black was particularly good in the animation.
You do make good points though, but you can clearly see the recoil when he's using his guns.
And idk about you, but I can see his guns mid combo.
It's fast yes, but many things in games are.
i agree with you. erron black's design is very good
Diza K he didn't say his design was bad, but actually praised it. It's the animation that sucks.
Ai in your opinion it sucks, yes
The gun size is one of the most insignificant, nitpick complaint I've ever seen. His gun size is just fine, because while MK is ridiculous it has some grounds in reality in terms of the style it's always had and that's what makes it special. Overly large revolvers or ridiculously overexaggrrated stances wouldn't work for Erron Black simply for the fact that in much similar styles the cowboy is cool by not doing much at all.
I can agree with you on that, though I see his point with why larger gun size would express the guns better and show that they're actually there in his hands. But I think that they could've done better without making his guns larger. That is, as he stressed before, key frames. If they had to cut down the amount of frames to demonstrate how quick the attacks were, at least make each frame express the attack more as if you were drawing it on paper. You wouldn't just draw a blur of motion, or the moment just before he fires the gun while he's in an awkward stance.
5 inches are not enough
Here's what I think: If your only criticisms are nitpicks, then it means most of everything is fine and you went for the very minor stuff. In other words, useless.
“It has some grounds in reality”
No it doesn’t, lmao.
There's still ways to make his gun stand-out, like colors or poses, the point was that most of the time you can't tell what he's doing with his guns and making it bigger is just one way to fix it
Plus how is a slightly larger gun sillier than Kung Lao's hat or Jax and his metal arms, hell one of the characters is a fusion of three cyborgs and I'm only talking about weapons here I'm not even touching on the character designs (except Triborg but he is the weapon), it's not made to be at least somewhat realistic in any way
What game is that at 2:05? The one with the KKKowboy?
The game is "Battle Fantasia"
my fav game as a kid
*complains about game not showing cartoony and obvious enough recoil*
*immediately shows gunfire with unnoticeable recoil unless you slow it down majorly as an example of good recoil*
old account k? Cool you've never fired a gun. You see the recoil my man. With erron you don't.
But if you slowed errons down would you?
"But in America, we have, the Cowboy"
Tell me about it....
MY NAME'S NOT SHANE, KID
Curious on your opinions for Injustice 2's animations.
You don't understand how happy I am that you used the Wild Arms music for this video
Are you gonna do a video for Red Hood now that he's officially out?
A lot of wild arms 3 Music
I think it would've been completely badass if Erron brought some giant revolvers like the .500 S&W, tossing them around and firing them like they're nothing. Not only would it help with seeing them, but it would also help with his general level of coolness
This made me respect the older DOA and Tekken games so much.
Come to think of it, Video Games is pretty much a Japanese art form.
I'm Okay ,
EWJ was the first Western game with good animation, really.
Nah bro, kitana is the worse stance. It makes no sense.
Her stance is like a shitty dab
I see Erron Black got his outfit out of Rob Liefeld's closet.
At least Liefield uses varied and bright colors in his designs.
Wow, I just complimented Rob Liefield design work. That is a first.
4:23 Marvel vs Arc System confirmed
I would love that honestly
Omg YES!
Guess what ?, they never learn
7:12 Who is this? It's quite an interesting visual design for a character, so I might get this game seeing as I usually pick characters based upon their aesthetic.
SoulOfaLiar Arcana Heart 3’s very own princess: Petra Johanna Lagerkvist
From this video I learned that I'm probably too dumb to understand how animation works.
Do you have a link or anything similar about the "5 degree rule"?
Very good video by the way, I've always hated the way most MK characters are animated and how little personality they have during their attack animations.
I always wondered why Mortal Kombat in motion looked so clunky and bad. This really conveys to a layman why that is.
This is a great video... I also feel that the stances are kinda poor because I think they use motion capture for them and edit them after... if I were posing my characters, I would pose in a natural martial arts stance so I am comfortable in performing the stance and attacks. Most of the stances in this game would make me tired and sore trying to perform them
MK Fans: Striker sucks he uses guns,
Also MK Fans: ERRON BLACK IS AWESOME HE USES GUNS.
What is the name of other characters and their games pls
Blaz Blue, Persona 5 Arena, Marvel vs Capcom 2 (Cabel), Arcana Heart
In addition to all the insightful information, I really, really appreciate the unexpected amount of Wild ARMS in this video.
Since Erron Black is returning in MK 11, will you make a video on him? I think it would very interesting to review his animations in a new game and compare them to the older ones :)
I am tiny baby weapons guy.
and *this*
is my tiny baby gun.
Dude, love these videos!
It doesn't have anything to do with the theme of the video but
I need the name of this guy in 2:06 it looks so silly and cool
At 5:27 it says his name is Face but I couldn't find Face nor Freed so idk what game they are from
Edit: Someone in the comments said the game is Battle Fantasia
Ah i really love this channel
Of all the gun slinger characters, Face from Battle fantasía has to be my favourite, which is a shame because that game is deader than a doorknob
Who’s the girl in the white dress at 1:59 and what game is she from
Actually, with an old fashioned revolver pistol whipping would be most effective with the barrel, because of the long thin shape, so that point isn't really valid. Everything else you said makes sense though.
To be fair, in the story mode, Erron Black is the biggest idiot ever.
I still remember that embarassing scene when he tried to shoot Kung Jin who was way far in the back, but Takeda was in the way, so Erron Black used a big brain move - he....charged head-on, with his pistols facing forward. The worst thing is that Takeda could've easily grabbed him, run all the way to the other side so there's even more distance between Erron and Kung Jin, but instead all he does is go for Erron's legs, make him lose balance then have Erron start on the left side of the screen.
That scene was just moronic, no matter how you put it.
00:07 here in Brazil we have the "cangaceiro"
At 1:04 if you listen closely you can hear ABI clicking his mouse.. The things i find out when bored.
Some MK animations bothered me since the first time. Now watching these videos I realize that there are a lot of flaws with NetherRealm animations. It looks like they tell inexperienced actors to do mocap with no supervision and then they throw those animations into the game as they are.
Funnily enough that is how mk started out so yeah
What game is the character with the hood I think his name was “Face” from
Battle Fantasia
WILD ARMS 3 MUSIC
Great video as well.
Looks like nitpicking to me to the point where you tell yourself aboyt 5 degree rule, and there clearly 5 or more in animation but you say opposite. His guns look cool tho, not bulky and clunky.
In his grab move its not recoil of a gun, he draw the hammer (because he have single-action revolvers, and its faster and easier to do by changing arm position). This animation is actualy realy clever, its create shooting temp (so he doesnt shoot 2 guns at once) creates dynamic AND hide that there no pulling hammer animation.
His guns look cool tho, not bulky and clunky.
Shame his mk11 version are
Why is your Erron Black drawing more Mcree than Erron?
Erron's standing animation is actually quite fine. Honestly the one you suggested is quite ridiculous and would make the character painful to look at. The standing idle animation looks like the character is using a weaver stance, a classic shooting stance that gives best accessibility to your firearm in a ready stance. If you were to shoot from the stance that you had shown, your center of balance would be way off and you wouldn't be able to return your firearm to the position from where it fired from.
The standoff position is, as well, an alright thing. They just modified as isosceles stance and put him in a regular quickdraw pose, hand below holster to ensure the fastest draw possible. The animations for the gun firing are quick because someone that has practiced and practiced with drawing and firing can do so in very small fractions of seconds, if you've ever seen recreational shooting. As well as the weapons not displaying recoil correctly, it's more of a homage to spaghetti westerns, which have actors waving guns around and adding effects in post rather than using blanks. ( ruclips.net/video/TbvMgLDVUd4/видео.html ) is a good example of that. As well as his brawling animations being more true to life than you might think because with brawling styles, it's wild power with no technique. So the power has nowhere to go except mainly into the journey to the target, rather than the target itself. Saloon brawling is much like street brawling and "Put 'em Up" (the 2,1,1,2,2 move) exemplifies that style of fighting more than everything else. It's wild, has no center of balance and is leading with his arms instead of using a full range of motion, having his legs being forced to catch up with the rest. That's an actual thing you will see in street brawling.
Honestly I would say just stick to basic textbook animation principles.
Sonicfox didn't care, because he won a ton of matches with Mr. Black 😆 Seriously, as someone involved in the animation field, this is a great video.
CageCat As someone in the animation field. Why is his demonstration of his own animation look so awful?
2:07 who is that and what are they from? That's a pretty cool character design.
So after the reveal of Erron Black today in MK11, I gotta say....I think they listened to you bro. Like about EVERYTHING!! Even down to the new stance!
And that low shot, KEY POSES!!!
5:00
Literaly, just look at Joker in smash ultimate, looking from the furthest you can, firing his gun
That Wild Arms 3 music ❤️
7:10 Who is this?
Yes it is ugly, well most stance in this game are wired. But the most ugly one is your design shown in this video
Fucking destroyed lmao
To be fair, Snolf is right. Regardless of what he said in the video, the pose he designed is ridicoulous. Way too tense, exaggerated, and unfitting for a cowboy character.
What? The one at 2:54?
MonkeySharkPro no the one at the beginning
It wasnt made seriously. It was a example. Shut up.
What game is the character from 2:18 ?
Donut Sama thx!
That unbalanced moves and the lack of recoil are surely problem.
What was the game you showed the clip of with the lady samurai?
Thats Hibiki from The Last Blade 2 by SNK.
Thanks a lot for the video, I anticipated it a lot ♥