Honestly, the IR's sound better in my opinion. The "dynamic artifacts" are not perceivable in or out of a mix. The IR is the cab tone, but with dialed in mic selection and placement. It just sounds better to me.
IR's sound more polished most of the times because they are. Most IR-makers use quite a bit of EQ to finetune their IR before selling it. So what you get is not a raw miced tone from a speaker, but a processed miced speaker most of the time (atleast for the better known IR makers like OH, YorkAudio, NeuralDSP etc..). So a big point why I personally would never use IR's is because everyone else can have it and it is nothing really unique most of the time. Most IR's are the common used Celestion speakers (V30, GB, CB), maybe an EVM here and there but that's it. If I'm recording I want to stand out, and not only musically but also sonically, and as speakers and mics play a huge role in that department, I would always use my own stuff, because it's MY gear and noone else can have it. IR's are great when youre practicing at home though. Also the feel is just different playing through a loud cabinet than playing to your computer monitors. Every guitarist should experience this atleast once and then answer the question IR or real Cab again. ;)
One thing you didnt answer was how did it feel playing through a cab as opposed through an IR. I love playing through my cab as opposed to IRs and monitor speakers. But I love IR's too. Great video
I honestly think these are some of the best and most interesting tones you’ve gotten in the channel. Micing cabs is a pain, but I almost always think it sounds better than IRs.
@@muriloninja Yep, more polished and perfect is normally not conducive to a better song/album sound. Most of the iconic metal albums had quirks in the mixing and guitar sounds etc, but if you went and polished them up with perfect mixing and eq'd amps they wouldn't sound right.
Gotta agree because for once I can really hear the difference in the cabs, speakers, frontloaded vs rear vs. mic placement. Overall it just seemed to have a more real quality to it.
was looking for stuff... there's a video on how to mic an open backed combo, the mic from front and back sound so different it's disgusting. to get decent sound from them, gotta have two or more mics.
@@dildojizzbaggins6969 no clue, i see it say three replies, your last one and i presume others, i try to open them to see what you're referring to and all your comments go poof. youtube comments have been screwed for months, but this is pretty bad.
Bad ass video Jon! This is exactly what I’ve been wanting to see. Also, check out your reflection in the Engl logo at 9:48….you can see the master at work! 😆
I have been using IRs for the past few years now and they work great. They are definitely a more efficient and convenient means of recording that have kept me from getting evicted from my apartment by allowing me to silently record at any time of day. With IRs (at least third party IRs), you get the same professional signal chain every time. That being said, I have recently become interested in miking amps again, particularly after having recently acquired a Mesa Oversized 412 with V30s. What I have become interested in is precisely because it can yield unpredictable results and gives some variety to recorded tones, whereas with IRs I tend to use the same ones most of the time which can get kind of boring to me. I also just like the idea of knowing how to mic a cabinet. Either way, the end result is all that matters. Whether you get there by IR or mic’d cab is ultimately irrelevant. If it sounds good, it is good. Thanks for the video! Your mic’d cabs sounded great to me, though I definitely preferred the Engl.
What be interesting is if you tried to make your own IR's and then compared them... And then see what you can do in post with a tiny bit of processing and ambience to get the sound closer.
IMO there is no "best" spot or "best" gear - its really about what you like and what you are going for for any specific useage. Only you know exactly what you are looking for, and thats the main benefit of dialling things in yourself. There is a learning curve to knowing how to get what you want but the beauty of it is you have full control of dialling it in. With most IR pack's you're somewhat limited by the mics and positions that the IR creator gives you. I liked that these tones had a different quality to your usual tones; not my favourites necessarily but it sounded more unique than the same IR's that lots of people are using.
Great topic! Funny. I went the other way with my studio. I started by mic'ing my cab, the main issue was isolation. I tried placing my cab in an adjacent bathroom but I just couldn't isolate it. So to audition tones I had to record and review each time. Very inefficient process. Even worse if the amp and cab are in the same room with you. To place a mic properly you need to be able to hear what you're doing in real time otherwise you are just guessing. The DI plus IRs is definitely the way to go if you can't isolate your cab. Great video!!!
"Hmm the neighbors are away on vacation, wonder what I might do when I am not feeding their cats and watering their plants?"😁 Crushing tones as usual!! Great video!
I liked the Engl in your comparison, but I watch your videos for your amazing use of IRs. I have much more experience with real cabs than IRs and I have never been able to get IRs to work for me and get the results I wanted or have seen you get. Great video!
You can always use isolation boxes, which you can build yourself, and then route some plugable holes for cables, and place the whole cab inside. It generally works best for 1x12 and 2x12 cabs, as well as 1x15 and 2x12 bass cabs. If you get a rack power amp or PA head or a small guitar amp with a line in (Bugera, Valeton, Orange, and more have models with 3.5mm or 6.35mm line in jacks) you can easily run amp sims out of your interface into a real cab. Likewise, some pedal power amps will work with a reamp box, transformer impedence adapter, or have mic/Line XLR input. An example you've had on your show would be the H&K Stompman. Other popular examples include the Orange Pedal Baby or Seymour Duncan Power Stage.
Amazing video. Thanks for sharing these fine expereinces. I use both microphones and IR with my Fireball 25 + 112 V30 on low volume when recording guitars. Tried some eq, and blending them as well with nice results. Anyway I prefered ENGL vs Orange in isolated mode, and versa in mix. Again an insturctive approach.
The Engle sounds more aggressive in a way and more defined on the open e string chugging, but I think the Orange sounds better for chording. I think the only solution is to run em both and blend them together. That would sound killer!
IRs are nice but when I record music I plan on releasing I like to use real cabs because it makes it more original IMO and years later when I listen back to the final product and hear the tone it brings back memories of how I setup the amp and mic that day and how it sounded when I was recording it in the room. Something about documenting the time and place within the tone itself.
Jon, just for the record, you get the best guitar sounds of any of the channels that I follow. I have purchased several Ownhammer IR's based solely on the results that you have posted. I like having the benefits of having professionally mic'ed cabinets at the click of a mouse. Your tones are great! Please keep up the great work.
Wow ! Thank you ! I remember asking you to mic up the cabs because IR'S are just not real world for myself and many other people who record live music full band style like myself so thank you guys for the real Deal!
This is cool- watching you getting out of your comfort zone :D I'm the same- IR's are way more convenient but tonight I'm picking up my first cab to prepare it for a music video so I will probably try micing it up soon.
I got hold of a couple of the York Audio Cab IRs after watching your Rammstein tone video with your Mesa and Tech21 PL1. Absolutely amazing IRs. Love your videos, man! Always awesome in playing and content 🤘
Fun video, alot to unpack. First of, big difference in comparison to your usual sounds with the ir's, definitely less 'polished'. The ENGL sounds like it would cut better in rehearsal or live situations but the Orange sounded better for the mix. So for a mic'd sound, it could be the winner of the two. Some producers like to mic both speakers in a cab. Perhaps that would make a cool video? Did you prefer one cab over the other? I've found that a less polished sound, gives you more to work for in capturing the sound in your head, which therefor makes you pick up the guitar more often and gets you digging into your technique. Fun of the process!
Everything you said is totally true, IRs are more consistent, you don’t have to worry about volume, they’re more convenient etc. I will say that the inconsistency of cabs is also one of the reasons I like them, because there’s something about “imperfections” that give the tone a “human” aspect to it. When I think about some recordings like the first Foo Fighters album, there’s this “imperfection” to the guitar tone that’s really appealing, and there’s something wild and unpredictable about that that I really like, and am inspired by. queens of the Stone Age is another band that comes to mind in terms of strange and “imperfect” amp tones. I totally get what people use IRs, cause they are “perfect”, and I guess it really depends on the kind of sound you want and what inspires you.
They both sound awesome. The engl does well with amps lacking highs and the orange pairs well with amps high frequencies like a 6505. Really mellows out the highs and just sounds killer. They are both awesome
In direct comparison through the video the IR really impressed me. There is still room for improvement left in your micing but that is not important now. IR seems an really easy and cheap(?) solution.
Awesome upload. I own that orange cab but I preferred your engl recorded. I’m also on the IR bandwagon for recording. But your perspective on how it sounds in the room is appreciated. Still relevant for small stage live environments, like many musicians live in.
Awesome video @sonicdrivestudio . IR's are king for our work flow. VIDEO IDEA - Can you compare the internal ENGL Load and Line out VS some load boxes. Not sure if you have done this yet. I love my FB25 and I use the internal load
Nice work man! You got some good results here, especially for not being super experienced with micing cabs. I myself have always found the 57 a little too harsh. The SM58 sounds much more balanced to me and pleasing.
Honestly, I have listened to this video a few times and thought about it a lot but I absolutely love that you use IRs for the most part on your channel. Don't get me wrong I love and am fine with mic'ing cabs but the IRs give me exactly what I want from a tone. I know a lot of people like "in the room" tones from an amo and cab but I find that a lot of the character in the amp disappears when recorded with a phone. I love that you record with IRs as I get a very upfront and in-your-face example of the tone. Keep doing what you do! I am very interested in the RedSeven Amp Central because of your recording results. Love your channel!
To broke to buy cabs, to broke to get space enough for some real cabs and such...looks like IR's are staring at me lmao the beautiful thing is that there are options for everyones purpose out here. I personally use STL Tones to dish out what I need and its been a smooth ride so far. Awesome video!
Great job! I have learned from other guitar channels that it is all about the speaker. Specifically an 8ohm vintage 30. Early 2000's are really good, but they all work well in my opinion. I have two Mesa 4x12's and a 1x12, and they all sound great. All you need is one 57 but adding another 57 or a 421 is a bit thicker.
IRs certainly do offer more flexibility. I would use 2 mics for cabs and mic two different speakers. Dynamic + Condenser or Dynamic + Ribbon are usually best. I would also apply EQ to smooth out the frequency response and to eliminate problematic frequencies. You can always make your own IRs as well!
Some of your best tones imo. God damn that Engl sounded good. Also coming from someone whos learning to mic a cab, try blending a second sm57. Way way more versatility and itll fill out the frequencies way better
Inexperience here plays a huge factor in the outcome of this video. The reason why many professional engineers, myself included, use a cab and mic is that once you learn particular cabs and microphones, in the same way that you learn a set of studio monitors, you will no longer be doing this sort of egg hunting where you're moving the microphone about to try and find a spot that could work. You'll know what that particular song/band needs and you'll have some instinct as to which cab/microphone combination will give the client what they need, and you'll also know where to put the microphone almost immediately. You'll be using the cab and mic to allow you to hit precise targets that you hear in your head, which is far more tailored for the tonal goals you're trying to achieve, much better than using scrolling through a list of IRs that's basically "you get what you get". While you might get something really good with the IR, it's not the same as putting precisely the right mic on the right cab, in the right spot, to get the sound you heard in your head. I don't fault you though, this skill takes many years to develop and it takes a level of dedication to that skill that most find not worth it when they just want to pump out content. They're not needing or striving to make hand crafted albums. Also, you could try using foam, or blanketting over the cab and that makes a huge difference in how 'direct' the cab will sound into the microphone. Sometimes it's useful, sometimes not, again a person has to know what it does and then use proper judgment on whether to use it or not.
This is why I always want cabinets. IR's sound great yes but if you want to tweak an IR to get it to sound different, you really can't. You can EQ and compress and saturate but nothing is quite like finding that magic spot on a real cabinet to me. It's tough to do but man, I love the process. There's attenuators like the Fryette Power Station too that can let you crank the ever living snot out of your amp but have it at a reasonable volume. I'd definitely be curious to see how that would compare.
I love your videos and you chose the right guitar “song”. I preferred the ENGL but the orange wasn’t too bad. Lacking low end I thought. Cheers from NZ 😎🎸🤘
I figure out stereo recording might sound better and it's close to the feedback between cab and human ears, Just my opinion to record guitar cab, Maybe you could try it :) I've been watching your video for quite a long time, Such a enjoyment when listening those demo songs you compose, Keep Rocking!
Thank you for all your effort to produce this content. Great as usual. My 2 cents: with a physical system like cabs/amps/mics, I think you need to push the cabs harder..50 watts minimum. There is an ideal operating window that cabs best perform within. Very good analysis and breakdown of pros and cons.
Cool video, even if just to show the tonal differences between speakers and different cabinet types. If you want to keep experimenting, you can easily create your own IRs from your own cabinets. I have been experimenting with this for about two years and could share my experiences and approach with you, if you wanted to try capturing your own gear to compare them directly against some of your favourite IRs.
Glad to hear you've dipped your toes into the mic'ing cabs rabbit hole. That's something I've been messing around and A/B testing for a while, so I'll share a bit of my experiences. My conclusion has been that if I mic my cab in the way I'll describe next, I do get a significantly better tone than using good IRs. For starters, if I simply mic using a single SM57 as you did, indeed the tone I get does not hold up to professional IRs. But what I do is I blend 4 different microphones and 2 different speakers: a Lewitt MTP 440, a Lewitt LCT 440 (condenser), a Senheiser MD421, and a Beyerdynamic 160. I use a Zilla 212 cab with a V30 and a Cream Alnico speakers (as well as a Friedman 212 cab with a V30 and a Swamp Thang), and as microphone preamp I use a pair of ART Pro MPA II. Of course this is quite the rabbit hole, and indeed you can spend endless time messing around with mic positions (and blend levels), though in my experience I've found some spots where I'm happy with the tone, and I don't mess around much with it unless I feel the recording sounds too bright or too dark. I usually plug my amps into a load box, and the reamp the signal with a clean tube power amp (Fryette PS/2, though the Mooer is also good and much cheaper) connected to my cabs, so I can play and record at low volumes in my home studio. All in all, in my opinion the results I get with the above setup sounds better than using IRs. It's indeed an investment in both time and money that I've been building over the last years, but at the end well worth it. A/B testing this with IRs makes them sound "fake" and "plastic" to my ears.
Have you made IRs of your own setup? I think you'll find that the IRs will sound identical. That is if you make them in a way that allows for those results (with the right type of power amp etc. etc.)
@@SonicDriveStudio No, I haven't done that yet, though it's something that's been in the back of my mind for a while. The thing is, I do prefer playing and listening through my cabs than through my monitors, so I haven't prioritized getting into making my own IRs, but it is something I am curious about A/B testing someday indeed.
@Zygnus it could be a fun test! Look, you have your own way of doing things and there is nothing wrong with that! Do whatever works! However, the facts are simply that if an IR is made properly, the differences to the human ear are basically non existent. No matter how badly some people choose to believe otherwise. In the end its all good and people should just use whatever makes them happy! That's what it's about in the end
im just here for the tone and riffs, i don't record or gig. just a bedroom player listening directly from my 2x12 engl cab and love it. if ur doing recordings i didn't know u have to put alot of effort and stuff to consider. but anyway great video.
I think your doing yourself a disservice. You absolutely killed it. The groove was on point, The sound was great, I believe you’re way over analyzing it as an artist. That was a great tone and performance for that song! I agree that ir’s are great, I love my fractal and it doesn’t matter if you use a real amp or not anymore, but you did an amazing job. Where can we hear the final version.
I appreciate your comment! Regarding the disservice: I don't know, it's just an honest video and I shared my experiences. I think it's good to not always try to show the world "how perfect we all are" if that makes sense?
I prefer the ENGL. The biggest factor of course is whether you're playing out live or not. If you're just doing recording, especially home recording, IRs are great. But if you play any gigs of course a real cab is essential, unless you're playing larger or better equipped venues with a good sound system and sound person who can amplify the tone of your modeler/IR effectively. For the small venues I play, I've found a real amp & cabinet is the only reliable way to make sure you can hear yourself on stage and get the sound you want (hopefully). Thanks for another great video!
I can definitely understand why a lot of people still like to use real cabs on stage! (Although a lot of bands don't even do that anymore these days and the sound guys are happier for it). I'm looking at this more from a recording perspective, or playing in a studio at least
I think if you don’t want to be mixing until the cows come home the best investment you can make is a remote mic robot dolly and a ribbon to blend or even an ozone cab with a few mic holders inside an abcd as it’s a pain trying to get it with just one 57 back and forth, there is just more 3d aliveness with a real cab into capsule not so flat but depends if there is a vocal in the track, horses for courses at mixdown, sounds great though as you have developed a good ear mixing with its anyway, so going to the mic and cab are aided by your experience :)
All the other shit I said aside, this turned out REALLY good. The Engl was bit bright in the top, muffled in the mid, and more woofy in the bottom, but the Orange was nice and smooth. I would have done the invert phase trick and layered them on top of each other, personally. The Engl worked better for the melodic chords because of how it sounded open, and was more in your face, as you said, and the Orange was very dark and heavy. Then use some roll off on the bottom in addition to the low pass, and maybe a shelf to balance them better.
What’s your band name? You know your music theory, please post a link or something to check it out. You make great recordings and mastering, but I’m more impressed with your musical ideas 🤘
I own the orange PPC212 and I just use it to jam out, but if I’m recording I’ll just use a load box and IRs since I don’t have the best acoustic treatment in my home “studio”.
IR's are great for ease of use and they do sound great however there is something about the way the air from the speaker hits the microphone that gives it a much better texture.
Great vid Jon, I think you were spot-on recognizing your preferences and skillset regarding this subject, and your overall takeaway makes sense to me. Objectively the mic'd cabs were worse for your needs, and subjectively they were less flexible and harder to manage getting a "good tone". As a Fireball 25 owner as well as the vertical ENGL 2x12 I often need to consider much more about frequency dynamics as decibels increase, plus I play in that same space so my guitar is bathed in sonics and can be a fun thing to manage at volume. Even though the lead channel has a decent internal gate, I still prefer playing without it. I could tell you had it enabled as well, but it's subjective I think, not really a "make it or break it" kind of thing. Peace yo
you prefer vert or horizontal cabs? ever try 2- 2x12 but horizontal and next to each other as opposed to stacked on top of each other? Not separated for stereo, just not stacked.
HI, great video and theme. For some time I decided that on FOH it always gives IR signal, but on stage I use a loudspeaker, why? Because I like to have a real guitar cabinet on stage, but on FOH I have: always the same cabinet, always the same microphone, always in the same position and the only thing that depends on the sound engineer are the sliders on the mixing table. I use H&K tubemeister straight from the built-in redbox and it sounds an FOH perfect, always :)
I'm recently becoming interesting in mic'ing up my cabs too. In fact, I have the same cab as you, except I changed the speakers. There are videos of it on my channel (shameless plug?) with random mic positions, but I am working on better one. My results with Fredman mic'ing have been super satisfying, but no video yet. To me, real amps (still) make a big difference, but I find myself very happy with IRs. I've created my own methods for capturing super precise IRs and A/B'ed with my own recordings, and I would say that the IRs fall in about 70-95% precision. Some times I can get them to almost null, some times I have a lot of room sound missing in the IR or being wrongly captured, but they generally capture the near-field sound well. About the ENGL, it helps to get it off the floor, and having some distance to the wall in front of it to avoid standing waves, but it indeed has a lot of low end, independently of the speakers.
orange cabinets are just the best out there imo! i sold my (far too heavy) orange ppc412 and replaced it with 2x ppc112 and couldn`t be happier with it. i really think about selling my mesa 4x12 but i have it since 30 decades and one day i may regret it just as usual 😂 cheers🎸
I definitely get the reasoning why. I rarely, if ever, get to crank up my stereo Marshall 100/100 into 2 x 4x12s cabs in a room, not much bigger than 4m x 4m. I'm actually afraid I'll shatter the window.😂 Yes, I did it just once 😢. I did how ever notice a slight difference between the medium volume 16:32 when you played the individual notes after the chuggy chords. On the loud version, those individual notes became a little more prominent. I hope you get what I'm hearing & saying. Otherwise, it's a great video as always.
Mic placement is obviously very important off course but I think it's also extremely important to dial the tone "in the mic" once you found a sweet spot, meaning you go back and forth between the recording room and the control room to find the settings that sound the best in the monitors. Also the settings would be dependent on the cab. I don't think there's a point to use the same settings on two different cabs.
Cabinet IRs = 🤘🏻 Amp IRs = 😒 You honestly have some of the best recorded cab IR tones on RUclips, it's inspired me to improve my skills at tweaking them! That said, there is something extremely satisfying about the transients and harmonics provided by a real guitar cabinet.
Both sound great but definitely prefer the Orange cab! The palm mutes sound better through it imo. Just don’t care for v30s much and if you’re going to go down this rabbit hole then definitely have to try various speakers 😂 If so I’d recommend a Redback, Reaper HP, Swamp Thang, and a Creamback pairs great with a v30
At the moment I have 3 amps and 7 different cabinets, just for playing at home and hopefully live again some day. I like how the different cabsizes and speakercombinations influence the tone. Its quite dramatic sometimes :p For recording I use an HX Stomp XL with IRs, so convenient.
That ENGL had more Top End Sparkle. Orange 🍊 is a little more balanced. I would love to run both together. So interesting how much difference Cabs make. Cool Stuff.
Its always interesting to hear what people like. Ive met many guys that claim "IR's dont sound good" and then you hear the tones they record with "the authenticity of a real cab" and to my ears they often sound like total ass.
The combination of those two cabs panned left and right with a double tracked guitar would make the devil himself rip out from under your floor to head bang with you and give you a high five. 😂
What do you use to to listen to your guitar sounds in the room when you use IRs? I like using a cabinet vs. using IRs with my studio monitors, but maybe they are just too small to really compete with the 2x12 in the room.
The issue I have with IRs is there are too many to choose from, and they suffer from the same issue I have with Amplitube: they’re a la carte. I’d rather just use a plug-in that’s complete versus half-finished products like a Cab M (I own one and over time, I never use it anymore.) I will say though: the big advantage of going digital is not having to get the micing EXACTLY right, whereas plugins and IRs can nail the same position every single time if you know the values or have them saved.
the mic records i think have less harsh mids and high freq sound not so harsh. have you also record the IR of your mic ?. intresting to hear this in compare to real mic. I get no good impulse, always harsher mids and not nice high freq fizzing. so i notice this on your iR compare immidiatly. the other resonances. I think when record a cabinet need allways 2 mics. it is same as with IR. most the IR with only 1 microphone record have a resonance. so use second mic at diffrent position mix in 10-15 % can reduce this resonance and let it sound fuller. . but your compare is ok, because you use a 1 mic ir too which also have resonance.
You have all those heads and only two cabs? You gotta get an extra room full of 4x12s, 2x15s, 4x10s…JK ;) I feel good about having two 4x12s, one with V30s and the other with G12k85s. I’d love to have another with Greenbacks some day! I love my reactive load/IRs for recording, but for playing live/rehearsal a 4x12 is the most inspiring way for me to play. I love feeling it hit me in the chest!
So I did this finally! What do you think?
Honestly, the IR's sound better in my opinion. The "dynamic artifacts" are not perceivable in or out of a mix. The IR is the cab tone, but with dialed in mic selection and placement. It just sounds better to me.
I think that whichever one sounds better to you, is the one that sounds better to you. Dont worry about which one that is!👍
Everybody's use case, part IR part Cabinets. 👌👌
IR's sound more polished most of the times because they are. Most IR-makers use quite a bit of EQ to finetune their IR before selling it. So what you get is not a raw miced tone from a speaker, but a processed miced speaker most of the time (atleast for the better known IR makers like OH, YorkAudio, NeuralDSP etc..).
So a big point why I personally would never use IR's is because everyone else can have it and it is nothing really unique most of the time. Most IR's are the common used Celestion speakers (V30, GB, CB), maybe an EVM here and there but that's it.
If I'm recording I want to stand out, and not only musically but also sonically, and as speakers and mics play a huge role in that department, I would always use my own stuff, because it's MY gear and noone else can have it.
IR's are great when youre practicing at home though. Also the feel is just different playing through a loud cabinet than playing to your computer monitors. Every guitarist should experience this atleast once and then answer the question IR or real Cab again. ;)
One thing you didnt answer was how did it feel playing through a cab as opposed through an IR. I love playing through my cab as opposed to IRs and monitor speakers. But I love IR's too. Great video
I honestly think these are some of the best and most interesting tones you’ve gotten in the channel. Micing cabs is a pain, but I almost always think it sounds better than IRs.
Agree and it's no secret why a lot of the seasoned pro artists revert to amps/cabs in the studio.
@@muriloninja Yep, more polished and perfect is normally not conducive to a better song/album sound. Most of the iconic metal albums had quirks in the mixing and guitar sounds etc, but if you went and polished them up with perfect mixing and eq'd amps they wouldn't sound right.
Gotta agree because for once I can really hear the difference in the cabs, speakers, frontloaded vs rear vs. mic placement. Overall it just seemed to have a more real quality to it.
I prefer the Orange, but I suspect if you blended these 2 they would sound amazing
was looking for stuff... there's a video on how to mic an open backed combo, the mic from front and back sound so different it's disgusting. to get decent sound from them, gotta have two or more mics.
I run a PPC212 closed-back cab, along with a PPC212 open-back cab. You get the best of both worlds, and the sound is HUGE.
@@felderup*open-backed
@@dildojizzbaggins6969 no clue, i see it say three replies, your last one and i presume others, i try to open them to see what you're referring to and all your comments go poof. youtube comments have been screwed for months, but this is pretty bad.
Bad ass video Jon! This is exactly what I’ve been wanting to see. Also, check out your reflection in the Engl logo at 9:48….you can see the master at work! 😆
Your riffs are always so goddamn heavy. Holy fuck. Im always impressed and inspired for sure. Excellent work!
I have been using IRs for the past few years now and they work great. They are definitely a more efficient and convenient means of recording that have kept me from getting evicted from my apartment by allowing me to silently record at any time of day. With IRs (at least third party IRs), you get the same professional signal chain every time. That being said, I have recently become interested in miking amps again, particularly after having recently acquired a Mesa Oversized 412 with V30s. What I have become interested in is precisely because it can yield unpredictable results and gives some variety to recorded tones, whereas with IRs I tend to use the same ones most of the time which can get kind of boring to me. I also just like the idea of knowing how to mic a cabinet. Either way, the end result is all that matters. Whether you get there by IR or mic’d cab is ultimately irrelevant. If it sounds good, it is good. Thanks for the video! Your mic’d cabs sounded great to me, though I definitely preferred the Engl.
What be interesting is if you tried to make your own IR's and then compared them... And then see what you can do in post with a tiny bit of processing and ambience to get the sound closer.
That would sound extremely good if you would blend the 2 cabinets at the same time
Hello ? Did I win something ??
No, beware the spammers!
IMO there is no "best" spot or "best" gear - its really about what you like and what you are going for for any specific useage. Only you know exactly what you are looking for, and thats the main benefit of dialling things in yourself. There is a learning curve to knowing how to get what you want but the beauty of it is you have full control of dialling it in. With most IR pack's you're somewhat limited by the mics and positions that the IR creator gives you. I liked that these tones had a different quality to your usual tones; not my favourites necessarily but it sounded more unique than the same IR's that lots of people are using.
That sounded awesome! Both sounded great but the ENGL was my preference.
Great topic! Funny. I went the other way with my studio. I started by mic'ing my cab, the main issue was isolation. I tried placing my cab in an adjacent bathroom but I just couldn't isolate it. So to audition tones I had to record and review each time. Very inefficient process. Even worse if the amp and cab are in the same room with you. To place a mic properly you need to be able to hear what you're doing in real time otherwise you are just guessing. The DI plus IRs is definitely the way to go if you can't isolate your cab. Great video!!!
"Hmm the neighbors are away on vacation, wonder what I might do when I am not feeding their cats and watering their plants?"😁 Crushing tones as usual!! Great video!
I liked the Engl in your comparison, but I watch your videos for your amazing use of IRs. I have much more experience with real cabs than IRs and I have never been able to get IRs to work for me and get the results I wanted or have seen you get. Great video!
You can always use isolation boxes, which you can build yourself, and then route some plugable holes for cables, and place the whole cab inside. It generally works best for 1x12 and 2x12 cabs, as well as 1x15 and 2x12 bass cabs. If you get a rack power amp or PA head or a small guitar amp with a line in (Bugera, Valeton, Orange, and more have models with 3.5mm or 6.35mm line in jacks) you can easily run amp sims out of your interface into a real cab. Likewise, some pedal power amps will work with a reamp box, transformer impedence adapter, or have mic/Line XLR input. An example you've had on your show would be the H&K Stompman. Other popular examples include the Orange Pedal Baby or Seymour Duncan Power Stage.
Amazing video. Thanks for sharing these fine expereinces. I use both microphones and IR with my Fireball 25 + 112 V30 on low volume when recording guitars. Tried some eq, and blending them as well with nice results. Anyway I prefered ENGL vs Orange in isolated mode, and versa in mix. Again an insturctive approach.
The Engle sounds more aggressive in a way and more defined on the open e string chugging, but I think the Orange sounds better for chording. I think the only solution is to run em both and blend them together. That would sound killer!
IRs are nice but when I record music I plan on releasing I like to use real cabs because it makes it more original IMO and years later when I listen back to the final product and hear the tone it brings back memories of how I setup the amp and mic that day and how it sounded when I was recording it in the room. Something about documenting the time and place within the tone itself.
Record how ever you like. I just love listening to your riffs!
:)
Jon, just for the record, you get the best guitar sounds of any of the channels that I follow. I have purchased several Ownhammer IR's based solely on the results that you have posted. I like having the benefits of having professionally mic'ed cabinets at the click of a mouse. Your tones are great! Please keep up the great work.
Wow ! Thank you ! I remember asking you to mic up the cabs because IR'S are just not real world for myself and many other people who record live music full band style like myself so thank you guys for the real Deal!
My pleasure. Btw, an IR gives a perfect representation of the sound of a real mic'ed cab. So it sounds just as "real world" as a real cab
This is cool- watching you getting out of your comfort zone :D I'm the same- IR's are way more convenient but tonight I'm picking up my first cab to prepare it for a music video so I will probably try micing it up soon.
It's worth a shot! I definitely enjoyed this experiment!
Lol, just yesterday I was thinking if you have any cabs in your studio and now this 😂 thank you for reading my mind!
7:55 your face in the reflection of the logo I'm dying 😂
I got hold of a couple of the York Audio Cab IRs after watching your Rammstein tone video with your Mesa and Tech21 PL1. Absolutely amazing IRs. Love your videos, man! Always awesome in playing and content 🤘
Fun video, alot to unpack. First of, big difference in comparison to your usual sounds with the ir's, definitely less 'polished'. The ENGL sounds like it would cut better in rehearsal or live situations but the Orange sounded better for the mix. So for a mic'd sound, it could be the winner of the two. Some producers like to mic both speakers in a cab. Perhaps that would make a cool video? Did you prefer one cab over the other? I've found that a less polished sound, gives you more to work for in capturing the sound in your head, which therefor makes you pick up the guitar more often and gets you digging into your technique. Fun of the process!
Everything you said is totally true, IRs are more consistent, you don’t have to worry about volume, they’re more convenient etc. I will say that the inconsistency of cabs is also one of the reasons I like them, because there’s something about “imperfections” that give the tone a “human” aspect to it. When I think about some recordings like the first Foo Fighters album, there’s this “imperfection” to the guitar tone that’s really appealing, and there’s something wild and unpredictable about that that I really like, and am inspired by. queens of the Stone Age is another band that comes to mind in terms of strange and “imperfect” amp tones. I totally get what people use IRs, cause they are “perfect”, and I guess it really depends on the kind of sound you want and what inspires you.
They both sound awesome. The engl does well with amps lacking highs and the orange pairs well with amps high frequencies like a 6505. Really mellows out the highs and just sounds killer. They are both awesome
In direct comparison through the video the IR really impressed me. There is still room for improvement left in your micing but that is not important now. IR seems an really easy and cheap(?) solution.
Awesome upload. I own that orange cab but I preferred your engl recorded. I’m also on the IR bandwagon for recording. But your perspective on how it sounds in the room is appreciated. Still relevant for small stage live environments, like many musicians live in.
Awesome video @sonicdrivestudio . IR's are king for our work flow. VIDEO IDEA - Can you compare the internal ENGL Load and Line out VS some load boxes. Not sure if you have done this yet. I love my FB25 and I use the internal load
Woah! that sounds really good!! I have the same PPC 212 but in black -- i love it!
Nice work man! You got some good results here, especially for not being super experienced with micing cabs. I myself have always found the 57 a little too harsh. The SM58 sounds much more balanced to me and pleasing.
these spikes and stuff you would normally eq out is what makes them sound great.
Honestly, I have listened to this video a few times and thought about it a lot but I absolutely love that you use IRs for the most part on your channel. Don't get me wrong I love and am fine with mic'ing cabs but the IRs give me exactly what I want from a tone. I know a lot of people like "in the room" tones from an amo and cab but I find that a lot of the character in the amp disappears when recorded with a phone. I love that you record with IRs as I get a very upfront and in-your-face example of the tone. Keep doing what you do! I am very interested in the RedSeven Amp Central because of your recording results. Love your channel!
Thanks!
I('r) totally agree with your conclusion :) Rock on!
To broke to buy cabs, to broke to get space enough for some real cabs and such...looks like IR's are staring at me lmao the beautiful thing is that there are options for everyones purpose out here. I personally use STL Tones to dish out what I need and its been a smooth ride so far. Awesome video!
Great job! I have learned from other guitar channels that it is all about the speaker. Specifically an 8ohm vintage 30.
Early 2000's are really good, but they all work well in my opinion.
I have two Mesa 4x12's and a 1x12, and they all sound great.
All you need is one 57 but adding another 57 or a 421 is a bit thicker.
I hope you made some IRs here, sounds great, both of them!
Great video. I’m getting a CaptorX soon. I’m mostly done with mic’ing cabs
they both sound great. i would love to hear them blended .
IRs certainly do offer more flexibility. I would use 2 mics for cabs and mic two different speakers. Dynamic + Condenser or Dynamic + Ribbon are usually best. I would also apply EQ to smooth out the frequency response and to eliminate problematic frequencies. You can always make your own IRs as well!
Some of your best tones imo. God damn that Engl sounded good. Also coming from someone whos learning to mic a cab, try blending a second sm57. Way way more versatility and itll fill out the frequencies way better
I love your reflection in the ENGL logo while filming the cab ahah
Inexperience here plays a huge factor in the outcome of this video.
The reason why many professional engineers, myself included, use a cab and mic is that once you learn particular cabs and microphones, in the same way that you learn a set of studio monitors, you will no longer be doing this sort of egg hunting where you're moving the microphone about to try and find a spot that could work.
You'll know what that particular song/band needs and you'll have some instinct as to which cab/microphone combination will give the client what they need, and you'll also know where to put the microphone almost immediately. You'll be using the cab and mic to allow you to hit precise targets that you hear in your head, which is far more tailored for the tonal goals you're trying to achieve, much better than using scrolling through a list of IRs that's basically "you get what you get". While you might get something really good with the IR, it's not the same as putting precisely the right mic on the right cab, in the right spot, to get the sound you heard in your head.
I don't fault you though, this skill takes many years to develop and it takes a level of dedication to that skill that most find not worth it when they just want to pump out content. They're not needing or striving to make hand crafted albums.
Also, you could try using foam, or blanketting over the cab and that makes a huge difference in how 'direct' the cab will sound into the microphone. Sometimes it's useful, sometimes not, again a person has to know what it does and then use proper judgment on whether to use it or not.
This is why I always want cabinets. IR's sound great yes but if you want to tweak an IR to get it to sound different, you really can't. You can EQ and compress and saturate but nothing is quite like finding that magic spot on a real cabinet to me. It's tough to do but man, I love the process. There's attenuators like the Fryette Power Station too that can let you crank the ever living snot out of your amp but have it at a reasonable volume. I'd definitely be curious to see how that would compare.
man, your guitar tone in all of your videos are superb.
Thank you!
I love your videos and you chose the right guitar “song”. I preferred the ENGL but the orange wasn’t too bad. Lacking low end I thought.
Cheers from NZ
😎🎸🤘
Have been waiting for this day forever ..So glad you started mic'ing the cabs
I've started but it has already ended :)
Beatifull video man! I love your mindset for try stuff.
I'll take the IR's anytime.
Faster workflow, convenient, reliable and consistent.
Excellent video as always \m/
I figure out stereo recording might sound better and it's close to the feedback between cab and human ears, Just my opinion to record guitar cab, Maybe you could try it :)
I've been watching your video for quite a long time, Such a enjoyment when listening those demo songs you compose, Keep Rocking!
My PPC212 tag on the back says made in USA. MY HIWATT DR 504 OL loves it.
I prefer the sound of the Engl Cab for starters. When it comes to cabinets vs IR’s, IR’s are great for recording purposes.
Good Experiment! Finding The Tone You Really Enjoy Is Key 🔑! 🎸😎✌️
great sound. !!!! I prefer ORANGE but both ofthem sounds very good..
Thank you for all your effort to produce this content. Great as usual. My 2 cents: with a physical system like cabs/amps/mics, I think you need to push the cabs harder..50 watts minimum. There is an ideal operating window that cabs best perform within.
Very good analysis and breakdown of pros and cons.
Having used both on my songs, I can never tell the difference! Great video!
Thanks!
Cool video, even if just to show the tonal differences between speakers and different cabinet types.
If you want to keep experimenting, you can easily create your own IRs from your own cabinets. I have been experimenting with this for about two years and could share my experiences and approach with you, if you wanted to try capturing your own gear to compare them directly against some of your favourite IRs.
Glad to hear you've dipped your toes into the mic'ing cabs rabbit hole. That's something I've been messing around and A/B testing for a while, so I'll share a bit of my experiences. My conclusion has been that if I mic my cab in the way I'll describe next, I do get a significantly better tone than using good IRs. For starters, if I simply mic using a single SM57 as you did, indeed the tone I get does not hold up to professional IRs. But what I do is I blend 4 different microphones and 2 different speakers: a Lewitt MTP 440, a Lewitt LCT 440 (condenser), a Senheiser MD421, and a Beyerdynamic 160. I use a Zilla 212 cab with a V30 and a Cream Alnico speakers (as well as a Friedman 212 cab with a V30 and a Swamp Thang), and as microphone preamp I use a pair of ART Pro MPA II.
Of course this is quite the rabbit hole, and indeed you can spend endless time messing around with mic positions (and blend levels), though in my experience I've found some spots where I'm happy with the tone, and I don't mess around much with it unless I feel the recording sounds too bright or too dark. I usually plug my amps into a load box, and the reamp the signal with a clean tube power amp (Fryette PS/2, though the Mooer is also good and much cheaper) connected to my cabs, so I can play and record at low volumes in my home studio.
All in all, in my opinion the results I get with the above setup sounds better than using IRs. It's indeed an investment in both time and money that I've been building over the last years, but at the end well worth it. A/B testing this with IRs makes them sound "fake" and "plastic" to my ears.
Have you made IRs of your own setup? I think you'll find that the IRs will sound identical. That is if you make them in a way that allows for those results (with the right type of power amp etc. etc.)
@@SonicDriveStudio No, I haven't done that yet, though it's something that's been in the back of my mind for a while. The thing is, I do prefer playing and listening through my cabs than through my monitors, so I haven't prioritized getting into making my own IRs, but it is something I am curious about A/B testing someday indeed.
@Zygnus it could be a fun test! Look, you have your own way of doing things and there is nothing wrong with that! Do whatever works! However, the facts are simply that if an IR is made properly, the differences to the human ear are basically non existent. No matter how badly some people choose to believe otherwise. In the end its all good and people should just use whatever makes them happy! That's what it's about in the end
im just here for the tone and riffs, i don't record or gig. just a bedroom player listening directly from my 2x12 engl cab and love it. if ur doing recordings i didn't know u have to put alot of effort and stuff to consider. but anyway great video.
Playing in the room through a real ENGL cab will always be fun! :)
I think your doing yourself a disservice. You absolutely killed it. The groove was on point, The sound was great, I believe you’re way over analyzing it as an artist.
That was a great tone and performance for that song! I agree that ir’s are great, I love my fractal and it doesn’t matter if you use a real amp or not anymore, but you did an amazing job.
Where can we hear the final version.
I appreciate your comment! Regarding the disservice: I don't know, it's just an honest video and I shared my experiences. I think it's good to not always try to show the world "how perfect we all are" if that makes sense?
I prefer the ENGL. The biggest factor of course is whether you're playing out live or not. If you're just doing recording, especially home recording, IRs are great. But if you play any gigs of course a real cab is essential, unless you're playing larger or better equipped venues with a good sound system and sound person who can amplify the tone of your modeler/IR effectively. For the small venues I play, I've found a real amp & cabinet is the only reliable way to make sure you can hear yourself on stage and get the sound you want (hopefully). Thanks for another great video!
I can definitely understand why a lot of people still like to use real cabs on stage! (Although a lot of bands don't even do that anymore these days and the sound guys are happier for it). I'm looking at this more from a recording perspective, or playing in a studio at least
I think if you don’t want to be mixing until the cows come home the best investment you can make is a remote mic robot dolly and a ribbon to blend or even an ozone cab with a few mic holders inside an abcd as it’s a pain trying to get it with just one 57 back and forth, there is just more 3d aliveness with a real cab into capsule not so flat but depends if there is a vocal in the track, horses for courses at mixdown, sounds great though as you have developed a good ear mixing with its anyway, so going to the mic and cab are aided by your experience :)
I hear a frequency in the highs I don't like with the Orange cab That Fireball 25 is awesome...
Same speakers but big difference apparently. Grill cloth of the Orange, and different types of woods used definitely have an effect.
Those riffs were amazing!
All the other shit I said aside, this turned out REALLY good. The Engl was bit bright in the top, muffled in the mid, and more woofy in the bottom, but the Orange was nice and smooth. I would have done the invert phase trick and layered them on top of each other, personally. The Engl worked better for the melodic chords because of how it sounded open, and was more in your face, as you said, and the Orange was very dark and heavy. Then use some roll off on the bottom in addition to the low pass, and maybe a shelf to balance them better.
What’s your band name? You know your music theory, please post a link or something to check it out. You make great recordings and mastering, but I’m more impressed with your musical ideas 🤘
Great video, sounds absolutely killer, I hope you continue doing it like that with all your amps.
This was probably the last time
I own the orange PPC212 and I just use it to jam out, but if I’m recording I’ll just use a load box and IRs since I don’t have the best acoustic treatment in my home “studio”.
Amazing video been wanting to try out them IRS but which OwnHammer or York Audio IRS pack would you recommend me? I mostly play melodic death metal.
This sounds SUPER GOOD!
IR's are great for ease of use and they do sound great however there is something about the way the air from the speaker hits the microphone that gives it a much better texture.
Great vid Jon, I think you were spot-on recognizing your preferences and skillset regarding this subject, and your overall takeaway makes sense to me. Objectively the mic'd cabs were worse for your needs, and subjectively they were less flexible and harder to manage getting a "good tone".
As a Fireball 25 owner as well as the vertical ENGL 2x12 I often need to consider much more about frequency dynamics as decibels increase, plus I play in that same space so my guitar is bathed in sonics and can be a fun thing to manage at volume. Even though the lead channel has a decent internal gate, I still prefer playing without it. I could tell you had it enabled as well, but it's subjective I think, not really a "make it or break it" kind of thing.
Peace yo
you prefer vert or horizontal cabs? ever try 2- 2x12 but horizontal and next to each other as opposed to stacked on top of each other? Not separated for stereo, just not stacked.
HI, great video and theme. For some time I decided that on FOH it always gives IR signal, but on stage I use a loudspeaker, why? Because I like to have a real guitar cabinet on stage, but on FOH I have: always the same cabinet, always the same microphone, always in the same position and the only thing that depends on the sound engineer are the sliders on the mixing table.
I use H&K tubemeister straight from the built-in redbox and it sounds an FOH perfect, always :)
Im feeling we may need a series called 1 Song, 1 Mic or 1 Cab, 1 Song
love the orange
So, you're looking for the tone of my Diezel straight cab with WGS Retro 30's and their Reaper 30 watters.
I'm recently becoming interesting in mic'ing up my cabs too. In fact, I have the same cab as you, except I changed the speakers. There are videos of it on my channel (shameless plug?) with random mic positions, but I am working on better one. My results with Fredman mic'ing have been super satisfying, but no video yet. To me, real amps (still) make a big difference, but I find myself very happy with IRs. I've created my own methods for capturing super precise IRs and A/B'ed with my own recordings, and I would say that the IRs fall in about 70-95% precision. Some times I can get them to almost null, some times I have a lot of room sound missing in the IR or being wrongly captured, but they generally capture the near-field sound well.
About the ENGL, it helps to get it off the floor, and having some distance to the wall in front of it to avoid standing waves, but it indeed has a lot of low end, independently of the speakers.
Yes, off the floor the low end would probably be more controlled. In terms of the wall, I had it angled
Dang it I was about to buy two 4x12s just for fun... I guess I just have to buy the IR pack too
orange cabinets are just the best out there imo! i sold my (far too heavy) orange ppc412 and replaced it with 2x ppc112 and couldn`t be happier with it. i really think about selling my mesa 4x12 but i have it since 30 decades and one day i may regret it just as usual 😂 cheers🎸
I definitely get the reasoning why. I rarely, if ever, get to crank up my stereo Marshall 100/100 into 2 x 4x12s cabs in a room, not much bigger than 4m x 4m. I'm actually afraid I'll shatter the window.😂 Yes, I did it just once 😢.
I did how ever notice a slight difference between the medium volume 16:32 when you played the individual notes after the chuggy chords. On the loud version, those individual notes became a little more prominent. I hope you get what I'm hearing & saying. Otherwise, it's a great video as always.
Mic placement is obviously very important off course but I think it's also extremely important to dial the tone "in the mic" once you found a sweet spot, meaning you go back and forth between the recording room and the control room to find the settings that sound the best in the monitors. Also the settings would be dependent on the cab. I don't think there's a point to use the same settings on two different cabs.
Cabinet IRs = 🤘🏻
Amp IRs = 😒
You honestly have some of the best recorded cab IR tones on RUclips, it's inspired me to improve my skills at tweaking them! That said, there is something extremely satisfying about the transients and harmonics provided by a real guitar cabinet.
Both sound great but definitely prefer the Orange cab! The palm mutes sound better through it imo. Just don’t care for v30s much and if you’re going to go down this rabbit hole then definitely have to try various speakers 😂 If so I’d recommend a Redback, Reaper HP, Swamp Thang, and a Creamback pairs great with a v30
I myself use a lot of amp sims and Line 6 Helix. I do not make enough of money to justify buying a $4000 guitar amp. Great video.
At the moment I have 3 amps and 7 different cabinets, just for playing at home and hopefully live again some day.
I like how the different cabsizes and speakercombinations influence the tone. Its quite dramatic sometimes :p
For recording I use an HX Stomp XL with IRs, so convenient.
That ENGL had more Top End Sparkle. Orange 🍊 is a little more balanced. I would love to run both together. So interesting how much difference Cabs make. Cool Stuff.
Its always interesting to hear what people like. Ive met many guys that claim "IR's dont sound good" and then you hear the tones they record with "the authenticity of a real cab" and to my ears they often sound like total ass.
The combination of those two cabs panned left and right with a double tracked guitar would make the devil himself rip out from under your floor to head bang with you and give you a high five. 😂
What do you use to to listen to your guitar sounds in the room when you use IRs? I like using a cabinet vs. using IRs with my studio monitors, but maybe they are just too small to really compete with the 2x12 in the room.
Sounds great, are you using both speakers or just one speaker with one mic on the video? Or one mic with both speaker?
One speaker with one mic
Thank you very much!
I have to admit, those were better than your usual tones. They had a really nice crunch to them that just sounded great.
Especially the ENGL
I'm glad you feel that way but I definitely don't agree. It was a cool test though! :)
The issue I have with IRs is there are too many to choose from, and they suffer from the same issue I have with Amplitube: they’re a la carte. I’d rather just use a plug-in that’s complete versus half-finished products like a Cab M (I own one and over time, I never use it anymore.)
I will say though: the big advantage of going digital is not having to get the micing EXACTLY right, whereas plugins and IRs can nail the same position every single time if you know the values or have them saved.
the mic records i think have less harsh mids and high freq sound not so harsh. have you also record the IR of your mic ?. intresting to hear this in compare to real mic. I get no good impulse, always harsher mids and not nice high freq fizzing. so i notice this on your iR compare immidiatly. the other resonances. I think when record a cabinet need allways 2 mics. it is same as with IR. most the IR with only 1 microphone record have a resonance. so use second mic at diffrent position mix in 10-15 % can reduce this resonance and let it sound fuller. . but your compare is ok, because you use a 1 mic ir too which also have resonance.
Sound is more open and organic with the Real speaker Cab,not superior than IR's but with more air and more consistancy,more lively
I use IR's and I love them for recording
lmao I have a Orange PPC212 and was considering the ENGL... I guess we have similar tastes
Option Paralysis! You have no idea. Deer 🦌 in the Headlights.over here.
You have all those heads and only two cabs?
You gotta get an extra room full of 4x12s, 2x15s, 4x10s…JK ;)
I feel good about having two 4x12s, one with V30s and the other with G12k85s. I’d love to have another with Greenbacks some day!
I love my reactive load/IRs for recording, but for playing live/rehearsal a 4x12 is the most inspiring way for me to play. I love feeling it hit me in the chest!
For live and rehearsals I can totally understand why that would be preferred! :)