Hey Paul, Thanks for sending me the link to the video. I admire the fact that you are out there challenging yourself and the boat, pushing hard to learn from experience. There are a number of things I will talk with you about in emails, especially after a few more viewings of the video, but here are some first impressions. In the first part of the clip where you are heading out to the island you make the point about rounding-up into steeper waves. I would not do that unless the wave was extreme, and would continue on course and take the wave on the angle of normal approach. That way the boat 'sees' a less steep wave with a less steep following slope. Think about riding you bike up a steep bank or ramp at an angle. Also, I think you and your friend could have been further forward in the boat on that up-wind leg. On the down-wind parts of the video the boom and yard were allowed to be too far out in relation to the centreline of the boat. Also, the down-haul needs to be further aft on the boom and tensioned much harder so as to increase luff-tension and to perform the same function as a vang at the same time. You will find the outer end of the boom will be tamed and not rise so high, and the sail will show less twist as you look up to the yard. The way you were sailing in the video it appeared as though the yard was further forward than 90 degrees to the centreline of the boat, and that is guaranteed to place you at risk of a 'Death Roll' because of the chaotic airflow over the sail. The end result is a feeling of being on the edge of control at best, and being capsised to windward at worst. I would not allow the yard the swing outboard more than about 75 to 80 degrees off the centreline of the boat, which probably means that the boom would only be about 50 or 60 degrees off the centreline if the downhaul is well tensioned and attached to the boom well aft of the mast. If conditions are tough, try tacking downwind - i.e. sail at an angle to the direct course downwind so that there is no chance of an accidental gybe, and then when you are ready for it, haul the mainsheet in to get the boom closer to the centreline and carry-out a deliberate gybe, ease out the mainsheet and head off at a corresponding angle to the wind in the other direction. So you end up zig-zagging downwind to your destination, but under more control. If doing a deliberate gybe is too intimidating in the conditions, just do a tack as you would going to windward. You will have to do a 270 degree turn each time, but you will be safe. Lastly, regarding me saying that the boat is 'dry', that is a relative term. Any small dinghy sailing fast to windward will throw spray, but trust me when I tell you that she is a 'dry' boat comparatively speaking - I've been sailing small boats on the windy east coast of Australia for 61 years, and I have known lots of 'wet' boats. Do consider installing self-bailers, by the way. Congratulations on your on-going adventure, but also take care and 'hasten slowly' in your learning! The sea is lots of fun, but is very unforgiving - when things go wrong, they usually go wrong fast! Ross Lillistone
Dear Ross, thanks much for writing. It's been fun to connect with you and other sailors through RUclips. It is helping me improve on my off days, and feel more comfortable when I'm back out there. I appreciate the time that you and others are putting in to helping me along. I will try your tips. From what you wrote it seems that the size of that particular wave in the vid at 1:45 isn't big enough merit changing course. It didn't feel like that to me! Since I've read all the comments and since I don't expect you or others to, I will synthesize what I've learned here: 1. Don't let the sail out so far on the downwind leg. I'm in danger of the Death Roll and was fortunate that didn't happen on the day of this vid. My reply is that I knew of that risk but was concerned about an accidental gybe. If the wind is behind me and my sail is closer to the wind I would be more at risk of the sail getting tossed to the other side. 2. Learn to reef. The conditions shown here merit 1 or 2 reefs. Aye aye! [On Sunday 8/9/20, 3 days after posting this vid, I saw whitecaps everywhere as we biked out to the point. I tried reefing at the dock, using just extra rope. I put in 2 reefs and the effect was as desired. I'll be doing this more often.] 3. Don't go directly downwind. Safer to tack downwind. If I am going directly downwind, raise the centerboard some. 4. More effective vanging is needed. That was already known and I've taken some steps to improve the downhaul since this sail. 5. Don't assume my good luck will continue in terms of capsizing. Have a plan. Be ready. Practice capsizing. 6. Moving forward on a surf might cause a broach. If anything sit further back on the downwind leg. Sit forward on the upwind leg.
@@fossilfool .... excellent summary. I'd add ... game out your tacks with sketches. When you are sailing downwind, or even on a broad reach, "remember" which tack you are on so that you don't "accidentally" jibe.
@@danielheistg9385 ... things can happen fast in a small boat, especially when the wind is blowing. If you Google a "points of sail" graphic, or make your own, you can think through your tacks ahead of time. It's easy when you're on close reach or or on a beam reach, but we can easily make mistakes on a broad reach or a run that will cause us to jibe and take on enough water that we'll capsize. I actually draw a diagram for a run with my sail on a port or starboard tack, add an arrow for the wind, and then mentally "walk" through my tacks by drawing a picture.
When you're planing, you're sailing over your bow wake. So it will look like the wake comes from the middle of the boat. Also, downwind - your weight should be BACK, not forward. putting the weight forward causes the bow to dig in, and twist up or downwind ... called a broach. Also, raise the board, so when you do broach, it doesn't dig in.
Yep, weigh aft while going down wind. Keep that rudder deep in the water counter balancing the downward force of the wind on the sail. Lift that center or dagger board. I drove the mast of 12 foot wood dinghy through its deck and the bottom of the hull in 40 mph winds with myself and two of my buddies sitting on the transom. Forces can be awesome! Learned not to ignore small craft warnings or at least not running downwind wile they are out. Moral of the story, weight aft but there are other limiting factors. ;)
@@justintyme720 you LIVE on a Penguin?!? Hats off to you - Penguins are considered narrow even for an 11 ft. dinghy. Used to frostbite them on the E. Coast.
Thanks James, in these 2 videos you can see some of the details and thoughts that have gone into bike sailing: ruclips.net/video/J5dOyEOeY6g/видео.html ruclips.net/video/zSy3L9q11gk/видео.html Maybe I'll do another that really focuses on how to. Thx for the encouragement!
I've kayaked the SF Bay for 25 years, so I know those waters well. When the wind gets over 15 knots, I'm out. You're a badass for going out those conditions. That which does not kill you makes you stronger.
many good comments already: first is "Reef Early" - you were overpowered because you flew too much canvas. Next: be sure you can recover from a capsize. (that should have been first) Getting the weight back will make a huge difference if you want to surf and sail on the edge. Finally, a ground rule for running or broad-reaching with a lug sail is to NEVER allow the yard go in front of the mast, i.e. beyond a right angle of the center line of the boat. Though the top of the yard was not visible in your video I had a pretty good sense that on many occasions the tip was way ahead of the mast thereby pushing the boat to windward. Hence the excessive weather helm. You guys should have both been sitting way in the back with crew hiking out and boom sheeted in. - I sail an Ilur with a large lug rig and I know the feeling you must have been experiencing in this video.
You guys are animals.. love it. besides all good points already given, I have a few. You looked over-canvassed to me, and so even if you're doing everything else right, things can still go squirrely really quickly. But you felt that! On wind forecasts. I grew up surfing in SF (so watching wind like a hawk daily for 20 years because it was 95% of the time our limiting factor) and if the sun is out, 9 times out of 10 its blowing at least 20 knots by the afternoon. Don't care what the report says. So default; plan on +20 (unless late fall Indian summer). But super cool video, and love you're out there getting after it!
On my Paradox, when running downwind, I often reef as much as half the sail. I go a little slower (possibly) but everything is incredibly relaxed, even in strong conditions. I second Ross's comments about not letting the yard out more than 90 degrees.
Great video. Just to add to the other comments about reefing... It is a good idea to have a reefing line rigged through your cringles so you can quickly reef as needed. I am sure you have seen the videos describing this feature. I sail a balanced lug Caledonia Yawl with a mizzen. I have learned that downhaul position and tension is critical to safety and performance. I would also recommend that you practice capsize and self rescue in a controlled safe water area. You will need be able to bail your boat after a capsize. A larger canvas bucket is a good thing to have on board.
Thx, @Ross Lillistone has a good reefing instruction video on his channel for the sister boat Phoenix III. I use a square food container. I'm going to do a capsize test soon. My previous attempt was more of a hatch test because the tide was too low to do a proper capsize test. It's on my channel.
Read a few of the comments and all are spot on about your weather helm. Downwind, dagger board UP and weight aft. All the comments about downhaul and angle of the boom and sail are spot on. Given that you're sailing downwind with a lively quartering sea you will always need to be attentive to light non-displacement hulls sliding and surfing, that is another reason for the dagger board to be UP, having that point of lateral resistance forward causes dramatic and dangerously sudden responses. And yes, I agree with the comments on your having too much sail area for the conditions! But DAMN that looked fun! You're also learning great lessons. One of which is that any sailboat is communicating with her helmsman and her sailors constantly and you're learning that language now. Weather helm is your little craft telling you that there are some things wrong with her, too much effort aft of the center of underwater lateral resistance among other things. Generally, it is advantageous in small craft like yours that are lightening quick in their responses, to have a little weather helm in these conditions as it's a failsafe when in danger of capsizing. Let go of the tiller and round up into the wind. Ideas keep coming up! Sailing downwind is the most technical and sensitive of conditions. In even the largest of displacement racing hulls with keels, that does not change. Even the slight shifting of one person in a 6-8-man crew can adversely affect your speed and handling. Add a spinnaker whose effort is so far forward that it wants to push the bow down and you'll understand better why you want more weight aft and no farther forward than the athwartship centerline as a rule of thumb. I'm a square rig, big ship sailor and a schooner-man but I grew up sailing skiffs and small craft. My older brother is/was one of the top racing sailors internationally and racing with him on his 30-foot class boat, was a real treat for a non-racing type like myself. Downwind we were expected to move to where he directed us and to remain as still as possible! There is a lot of activity sailing downwind, trimming sail constantly and the slightest change in wind direction and movement of the boat needs to be balanced to keep the speed up and not lose steering. In your case with your dagger board down and weight forward you were RIGHT to be concerned and apprehensive to sail downwind again. In a larger craft/displacement hull the danger would have been even greater. At any moment you could have slid down a wave face, snapped to windward, (weight forward) dug your bow in deep, heeled to leeward, dug your boom into the water and broached. In those conditions, things break, chaos ensues and it's NO fun at all. Don't stop challenging yourself and your fair little craft and KEEP sailing down wind, just move the weight aft and pull up the dagger board halfway or out completely and tuck in a reef if the conditions are as STIFF as they were that day. I sailed a 125' schooner, the Californian, in the Bay all one summer. We won the Master Mariners Race that year, beating Harold Summers' Wanderbird by 45 seconds! We carried all sail including our little square sail down wind.
Thanks for your careful watch and tips. I've implemented all the comments and improved my experience downwind measurably since posting this vid. Honestly the education I've received is the most valuable part of being a youtube poster. I just bought into a Cal 33 and I plan to post footage of sailing it to garner tips from more experienced sailors. How would one join in to crew on a sail of one of those Master Mariners boats? Sounds awesome!
Great footage and well done on your First Mate build! One suggestion, try to get that tiller extension in front of your body. Sailing in heavy conditions with the tiller extension behind your back can lead to inadvertent snagging and sudden loss of control .... don't ask how I know!!
Ditto, absolutely essential to learn how to hold the extension and sheet for control. Look at how the guy in this video sits and moves: ruclips.net/video/MkVZ2tHrLSg/видео.html Also, I don’t know if you have a ratchet block but you need one. It will give you much better control of the sail and less strain on your hands, which becomes not only comfort but safety issue in windy conditions. Awesome boat, thanks for sharing your adventures. Fair winds!
Wow. So glad this video appeared in my recommended... love what you’ve built, how you trailer and you’re really great video of your sails in SF Bay. Thank you for sharing your adventures. I’ve read some good posts here and imagine by now you’ve solved a few issues and made the tweaks Ross suggested. Ross has been a great resource to me with several issues encountered sailing my Phoenix lll. Can’t wait to see what other videos you have posted. One easy mod I’ve done which I highly recommend is a down haul on the center board. Had it jam more than once after sand worked into the case after beaching. I didn’t know I had a problem till I’d made my way past the breakers and got myself into some trouble.
Thx for watching Diana. Great to connect with other Ross Lillistone builders. I wish he were still hosting his facebook group! Yes, I have integrated a lot of the tips here into my sailing and things are feeling better in similar conditions. My cboard has a rod pushing it down and a cord to pull it back up. Would you still recommend a downhaul? Not clear why that would be better than what I have.
Beautiful work on the boat! And major love to you for going out on the Bay and working it! As an old Laser sailor, I can reinforce some of what others have said. Centerboard up when sailing downwind, try not to sail directly downwind, and letting the mainsheet out too far is the quickest way to experience a death roll. Also, the more speed you have the easier it is to head further downwind (to a point). Good luck, and stay safe!
Great video, challenging sailing, a great boat to try it in. Reducing sail calms everything down, inc your pounding heart. A few thoughts: Planing starts when the stern wake leaves the transom. Easy to see from your cemera angle; when the wake off the transom goes slick, you're planing. when the wake catches up with the transom, you've come off the plane. Bouyancy bags are a good fix BUT they must be strapped in really securely or they will just pop out from their own flotation force when they are immersed, possibly ripping. Use car seat belt webbing or toe strap webbing and screw it down with doubler plates over the straps into solid boat structure. Or sew a canvass cover for the bag that is screwed to the boat along one edge with a metal bar drilled for the screws, lace or strap down the opposite edge. The flotation forces are big. Looks like you could do with a significantly stiffer boom. The 'skiff sheeting' arrangement where the sheet comes from the boom to the hand is NOT my favourite because it needs two hands too haul in and always feel mushy to me. In skiffs, it is usually operated by the crew, not the helm. Have you got a ratchet on the last block? That helps a lot. But I would prefer the last block as a ratchet on the thwart or in the bottom of the boat (like on a Laser for example). There is a reason that is normal in racing sailboats (except skiffs) ; it works better! Try heaving to with the sail out at around 90 deg to the boat and flapping, sheet slack, with plenty of downhaul. Put the tiller down a bit and play with pulling up the centreboard maybe half way so you can achieve a relaxed stabiity, roughly beam on to the weather. Note that its not that easy to reef from this position so think abourt setting up your reefing lines so that it is possible. The ideal of having the boat head to wind aint going to happen unless you are anchored or moored. Though you could try a drogue!
Good tips, thx Tom! I've had a bunch of good sailing since this vid and have tried reefing and also raising the board on my broad reaches and runs. Way nicer. Yes, I have a ratchet on the last block. The reason I didn't rig it like the Laser is I wanted nothing in the way when I row.
Love what you are doing, glad I stumbled onto your zone as I think we following same learning curve, having gotten my dinghy this past summer (Pirate dinghy). The other day I learned all about the calm before the storm. There were clouds building but absolutely no wind. I thought about chilling and having a snack while I wait, then I thought... "is this the calm before the storm?" I hurriedly prepared the boat and then bang, the wind overtook me all at once and it was a scary but fast ride back to the anchorage. If I hadn't organised the ropes and packed things away I wouldn't have kept the last bit of control I managed! With the wind strong from aft, I wasn't confident enough to bring the dinghy back around to wind as I felt it would blow me over, but from comments, I read it seems I should have done just that and then let the wind spill out. Maybe your viewers have better advice? I was single-handed and in the end, I hurriedly tied the tiller down as a makeshift autopilot and risked moving to mast to fight the mainsail down which was ballooning and twisting up the mast! Once I managed, I could steer a decent run under the jib alone. Most exhilarating sail so far.
Good story :) So had you been trying to lower your sail before you set your autopilot and went forward? Did your sail really twist around the mast? Was it a balanced lug sail?
Maybe terminology off, but I would call it a normal sloop rig sail, with mainsail and jib. You can wiki to boat. Sail didn't twist around mast, but was pressed up hard against the shroud and the boom was lifting up creating a ballooned and squashed sail... Until then, my go to in gusts was to decrease power by letting the sail out a bit. In this situation it didn't have that effect, just unsettle dinghy more. And there is no autopilot, I just tied the tiller down so that I could leave it long enough to tackle the sail... Anyway, I will be checking in for your progress...
Hi Paul... I love sailing on the edge of sensible, its thrilling and you learn a lot. I too have got myself in stuations where i was fine but probably should not have been out. I look for 3 lemons as a way for assessing risk, ie big winds =1 lemon, inexperienced crew or sailers = 1 lemon, not sure of self rescue =1 lemon, unfamiliar gear =1 lemon..etc.... once you get to 3 lemons the consequence of one thing going wrong becomes dangerous... big wave... being swamped.... gear breaking.... man overboard.... there will always be the unpredictable... have a plan B. and redundancy planned into gear and situation. I hope this doesnt come across as preachy. I have found this a good way of assessing the day and also finding in reflection a new lemon :)..... I have never heard of bike sailing and enjoy the concept
Your feedback is helpful! I've since done a successful capsize test, but it was at a small lake, very different beast from the wind waves of SF Bay. I would like to do a more challenging capsize test also.
You should have a wind indicator because when you said that you were downwind at times you were sailing almost against the wind. Going downwind is important for both of you to stay as much as possible aft, at th back of th dinghy. Th most dangerous thing during downwind is accidental jibe. The wind indicator is very useful in this case. Finally, you have to continue to experiment and exercise in all conditions with high prudence. Small boats are less forgiving than large boats. Nice video. Thanks a lot, Fernando de Martino
Thx Mark, not gimballed. Just a 4' rigid boom and whatever stabilization the GoPro7 has. I am planning to do a vid about camera gear and custom camera mounts for this type of sailing. Please subscribe!
Wow... great video, the camera off the back is great. Love the bike towing. Really going for it. Looks scary as hell to me, but I know nothing about sailing. Never been down to the sea in ships.... Would not fancy spending too much time swimming in that water.
The balanced lug is a wonderfully versatile rig. A large consideration is the amount and direction of the downhaul force. It is not unusual to have a double downhaul system, one aimed more at luff tension while sailing upwind and the second used to position the boom for or aft in relation to the mast. The downwind benefit of the balanced lug is the ability to slide the rig "forward" effectively putting some of it sail area on each side of the mast, balancing the forces on the boat (less rudder force needed) and reducing the threat of an accidental jibe. Michael Storer has written about the balanced lug in some detail and there are numerous examples of ways to rig downhails to better the rigs performance. Enjoy the boat, the bay is a great place to explore.
Thx for the tips! Given the conditions I would feel pretty nervous changing the attachment point of the downhaul on the boom while on the water. Do you do this when preparing for downwind?
On my lug, there's no removing or switching over of anything g, its a matter of tightening or loosing the downhauls that allow the the boom to move forward of aft.
Awesome video. To conquer the fear once and for all you need to actually capsize and recover and repeat until your confidence is established. Start in controlled conditions with assistance at hand if needed. Capsize in as many different ways as the boat allows, over-sheeting in a gust, fumbling a gybe etc. It will teach you all the boat's limits in the process.
Hi William, thx a lot. I have done 2 in flat water so far. I am concerned about being able to do it in the chop and I do plan to practice this summer with support from the Cal Sailing Club. I also have an idea to do a CO2 system that lifts the boat, since it sits low after a capsize. It is not stable to be inside when it's full of water. So my thought is deployable emergency buoyancy to make it not tip while you bail. The boat was designed to be 'self-rescuable' according to Lillistone. This means easy to right. It is very easy to right. But I think it sits too low for safe bailing. Lillistone says it may be necessary to bail from outside!
Buoyancy just inboard and along the gunnel will let the boat float higher when capsized making it a bit more difficult to right but it greatly reduces the amount of water scooped when righting. I capsized my Miracle in similar conditions. It has full length side tanks and floats very high. The mast has no buoyancy so it turned turtle. When we finally got it upright, the amount of water inside did not prevent us from getting under way. We just bailed as we sailed along.
Down wind sailing in stiff winds is always challenging. It's even more of a challenge when you're sailing a catboat. With all of the sail on one side the weather helm can be excessive. You might try raising the dagggerboard even more. With a pivoting centerboard when you raise it, the center of lateral resistance moves aft, improving the heavy helm forces. Reefing will help.
At 15:20 look at how much sail is on each side of the mast. That’s got to turn you to the right. As advised, reefing is a wise option too. You’re on SF Bay, in a light boat, with all canvas flying, learning how to handle things, and concerned about being on the ragged edge. I think most of the sailing community would tell you that you’re pushing too hard.
Thanks a lot. I've been rowing this winter when the wind is low and the water is flat. I love how little there is to do at the dock, barely have to tie off.
IMHO that is a relatively dry dinghy, given the state of the water! And YES! you were planing alright! The boat is clearly lifted out and riding "on top" of the water, and not sailing by displacing the water to the sides. Planing is measurably faster than displacement sailing. I note the comments about downhauls etc. A good strong downhaul is very important for a balanced lug sail, but more for keeping good sail shape when reaching or sailing upwind. I wouldn't try and rely on a downhaul to control the boom when going with the wind: rather consider fitting a "preventer" rope leading from the boom down to the leeward gunwale (rig up some sort of cleat/adjuster system). The preventer stops the boom from rising too much (like a kicker or vang would on a conventional rig), and also limits the travel of the boom should the boat try and gybe by mistake..
Great video! As I'm sure you know by now, that's a fairly normal summer day in the Slot (the area between Angel and Treasure Islands in line with the Golden Gate. That boat was actually drier than I would have expected in that high, short-period chop. You get wet in much bigger, heavier boats than that in that area. I would personally prefer something decked, like a Welsford Navigator or Pathfinder, but your boat did well.
I'm new to sailing myself so can't add much wisdom but I have sailed aboard Bark Endeavour, Australias replica of Cooks Endeavour. In 5 metre seas which is relative to boat size, we all took turns on the helm and even a ship that big will slide sideways down waves. It required constant course correction so I don't think there's anything you can do about that aspect other than correct as required. Also general wisdom is that you never sail dead downwind. As for the boat needing port helm to go straight, put a try square on the table, one side is the boat the other is the sail, now push the middle of the sail in the direction of the wind and look which way the boat goes, that's why you needed port helm downwind
17:50 Downwind tacking is a good idea in heavy conditions - you can always spill main and it's much more speed and fun anyway. The boat rounds up possibly due too much plate so try less although it will roll more suddenly. There's a fine trade-off point.
I will say Great work, both the boat build and the sailing. Yes, my opinion SF Bay certainly has more wind chop than other areas/ bays folks sale. This is from experience of living just inland from Richmond and enjoying the strong Pacific winds
Great video! Two thoughts for skill-building: learn to heave-to- this is great for reefing, or taking a break, eating lunch, etc. It's like a magical parking brake on traditional boats. Second, I just discovered single-oar rowing- I sail a very similar boat, and sometimes I just need to row briefly to maneuver when I've lost wind. I found you can set up a single oar (I'm right-handed, so my port oar), and steer with my left hand (the rudder will be counteracting the turning force from the oar). It's not efficient, but it's easier than setting up both oars and oarlocks.
Thx Severn for your feedback. I do experiment with heaving to. It's been fun but not entirely reliable. How far out do you let the main sail go when heaving to with a balanced lug sail? I have been trying to let it out slightly more than where it would be when sailing upwind.
@@fossilfool heaving to a cat rig lug sail is a tricky operation. I’ve been working on this skill a couple of years with only moderate success. Sail a Phoenix lll. Love to see this rowing with one oar operation 😀. Would definitely be a handy skill
I couldn’t tell if you have a hiking strap installed but it helps immensely to put your feet under when hiking out On plane the boat feels like it’s suddenly sliding on ice, skimming over the water instead of plowing.
That’s a hell of a boat, (pretty light) and some good sailing. The lug seems forgiving is big wind. I would think in such a light craft you can appreciate that. Texas
Texas what? Thanks for watching. Hell yeah I love the forgiving rig. We shouldn't have had our centerboard down and we shouldn't have show this much sail and we basically came out unscathed :)
Great video, love the narration style/ commentary. I'm building an 18' Lilou2 open sailboat, a lug yawl. Looking forward to getting back on the water. Happy sailing!
Hi Fossil, That was a great sleigh ride you made a really beautiful boat! Regarding your question, i have never sailed a balanced lug rig but it seems to work really well. On rigs like that the center of effort of the sail plan is way out to leeward. this makes the boat want to round up. you can balance it out by raising the centerboard, like halfway or more or by heeling the boat a bit to windward although in that wind it might be tough. You could also take a look at your helming technique when the wind is heavy like that you might want to be a bit more aggressive on the rudder to keep that boat tracking straight. Try keeping your body in a good position for sailing and adjusting your crew position, as someone already mentioned he was a bit too far forward which will make the boat difficult to control.
Cool! My take on the extra water over the bow (other than the obvious roughish conditions) is that it seems like the mast forward design, plus the position of both of you, and position of the seat/thwart, is causing your bow to plow a bit more than it should. You might consider moving your positions a bit aft and/or adding a bit of ballast aft? Could be the camera lens...but just a thought.
@@fossilfool oh thought you were referring to that in the video....by "over the bow" I guess I meant more spray over the forward part of the gunnels than might be expected:)
Great to hear from you. Also check out First Mod Sea Trials: ruclips.net/video/J5dOyEOeY6g/видео.html Also check out any of the vids on my channel with "bike sailing" in the title. What kind of boat do you have and what questions do you have? I have been getting comments from others and may release another vid soon to answer peoples' questions, so plz subscribe. Thx.
Very nice sailing 4:34 vessel. What is the design? Looks like skin on frame? The reefing suggestions are spot on. Would just add (since wind seems to almost always p-u later in day) to Reef first -ahead of conditions. It’s far easier to “shake a reef” then put one in under adverse conditions. You might be going slower at first, but slow and steady is safe and what sailing is about. Hope to visit & sailSF Bay soon (retirement!).
Thxa lot. It’s a Ross Lillistone “First Mate” scaled up. Looks like skin on frame but they’re G10 panels, semi rigid and as strong as 1/4” plywood. Give a shout if you’re in the Bay.
Very nice and bold sailing, it was fun to watch. Few tips from a fellow dinghy sailor here: first, you didn't change the captain, you changed the skipper. Captain is the one taking the whole responsibility, skipper is the one holding the tiller. And second, when you go downwind on the right tack, the boat tends to turn right and you have to put a lot of force on the tiller to keep her running straight. That's because of the relative positions of the center of effort (CE, the center of the area of the sails) and the center of lateral resistance (CLR, the center of the underbody). When sailing downwind, the CLR is more or less at the center of the boat, while the CE in your case is far to port. You can think of it as if the wind pushes the boat in the center of the sail on the port side, while the water pushes the boat back at her center: these opposite motions together turn the boat to starboard.
Hello, I realixe that is 202 and you might have made mods to the boat but I would suggest adding A scupper at the bottom of the hull and all ythat water would be sucked-out on it own, no bailing required!
Thx Alain, and yes I have installed twin Ronstan / Anderson auto bailers. My experience with the large bailers has been good but when I tried the mini bailers, they didn't work. The force of the water popped them up. I reported the issue to Ronstan.
Amazing video - fantastic. Felt as if I was in the boat, whilst watching it and using my water rower (rowing machine) for exercise - took me away from a dark Covid winter. Also really liked the bit where you tow the boat with bicycle. You ask for tips? In summary (some also suggested already) from the perspective of a dinghy cruiser: safety 1. Reef early unless you have a support boat - view yourself as a yacht when making voyages and that is what a yacht would do. 2. Do a capsize drill, also flooding the boat, if you haven't already, to check the ability to bail the boat out - my impression is that your level of buoyancy might not be enough to stop the water coming back in as you bail out at sea, and then you could be in trouble - sorry it this is ok, but just going on visual impressions. 4. Is there a lanyard for the bailer - again apologies if there is, but I could not see it. 3. For dinghy cruising, do you have a portable radio in case you get in difficulty? Relying on a phone is risky and a radio will alert anyone in your vicinity, not just who you call - sorry again if you know this/ have a radio. Regarding downwind: 1. A vang would keep the sail in shape and stop the boom riding up, which is what was happening going downwind. 2. Some weather helm is normal (i.e. having to counteract turning into the wind), but this would be more manageable by decreasing sail area and sitting back further. Essentially you were broaching in a controlled manner due to being overpowered. Some of this can be avoided by anticipating the 'broach' and steering away slightly just before being 'luffed up' by the sea. One of the best videos of this type I have seen and make me want to travel to SF with my PicoMicroYacht, although probably a dream. picomicroyacht.blogspot.com/2020/
Thx Robin, I'll try to get some more footage for your workouts ;) I have done a capsize test and you're right, the boat sits low when it's full of water. I am concerned about waves coming in as a bail. The boat's designer suggests bailing from outside. I tried that in flat water and it was very tiring. I think it would be scary in the conditions when I'm likely to capsize. I have an idea to make an emergency flotation based on CO2 cannisters. I would buy fat tire innertubes for bikes and have cannisters ready to inflate. From outside the boat I could pull the pin and watch my craft lift 1-2", which might be enough to do the rest from inside more safely in a chop. I also would like to do a capsize test on a choppy day. I do have a radio and I have my bucket on a cord. I appreciate your tips, have learned a lot from folks here!
I put twin autobailers in this boat after posting. You have to be going pretty fast for them to work but of course that's when lots of water is coming aboard. Thx for watching!
You're clearly planing on the downwind leg, that is to say your boat is riding up over the water as opposed to plowing thru it. Downwind sailing is most challenging in a small boat. Once it becomes too windy, I avoid downwind legs and instead broad reach, then do a 'chicken tack' and then a broad reach back the other way. A deathroll is when the boat capsizes on a downwind leg when the boom goes up in the air. Lots of pressure on the tiller tells you that you are in an unhappy configuration and pressure on the sail is trying to turn your boat that you are trying to counter with the rudder.
@fossilfooom You mentioned you need to learn to reef. I sail a balanced lug with the boom and yard to the port side of the mast as you do. Take a length of (about) 5 mm cord. Tie a bowline around the boom with a very small amount of slack. Pass the line up the starboard side of the sail, through the cringle, and down to an eye at the end of the boom. Then it runs along to the boom (passing through the slack of the bowline) to a suitably positioned cleat. When I want to reef, I turn head to wind, slacken the halyard until the boom kisses the foredeck, then I pull on the tack reefing line to lift the boom back up to its original height, then cleat it off. Then I pull on the clew reefing line to raise the aft end of the boom and cleat off. Then adjust the halyard, downhaul and clew outhaul as necessary. (ALWAYS reef the tack first, then the clew.) By coincidence on my boat, the distance between the reef and the foot is almost identical to the distance between the boom and the foredeck, so I can use this as a guide to how far to lower the sail before pulling on the reefing line. For a deeper reef, I'd lower the sail all the way and do the whole job manually. You can manage without using the intermediate ties to bundle the sail, but it's untidy and if you do capsize, the sail may form a bag and fill with water. Practise in light conditions first. The time to reef is when you first think of it. It's far easier to shake out a reef that you don't need than to reef when conditions are getting scary. As for sailing down wind, if your boat allows you to reposition the boom: slacken the downhaul a bit and also whatever arrangement controls the position of the boom relative to the mast. The idea is to get the sail a bit further across the mast to balance it better. Use little or no centreboard, and sit well aft. If you sit forwards, the stern will raise, the rudder will lose grip and you will broach. NEVER let the clew end of the boom go forward of the mast.
Good steps from a fellow balanced lug sailor. Thx Mike. Ross Lillistone has a video showing the steps. Just got to make it happen now. No excuse that I didn't know how ;)
I just have to say, this is one of the videos that inspired me to get my own sailboat. I live in northern Colorado, and the sailing opportunities are sort of limited, but I was inspired to take advantage of what there is. This is a solid red state area, and think that you and I wouldn’t see eye to eye on many political and cultural issues, but I’m thankful that I can learn from you and share your enthusiasm for sailing!
I checked out his talk. Seems like overall he's saying to use the rudder less and use your balance and the boat's inherent properties more actively. This is consistent with what I've been hearing on the Goat Island Skiff group on facebook. Thx for sharing.
I also sail a Balanced lug and have had it out in 30+ winds on the Texas 200. Look at Michael Storer's website for great insight on balanced lug sailing. I have found that when the weather helm gets to be too great, using a bleater to allow the foot of the sail to move forward allows the tiller to be more balanced. I use the bleater and the down haul to help control the weather helm in the downwind runs.
Thanks for your tips Pat. I have done some reading on Michael Storer's website. I know what the bleater is but the way I've implemented it, it's just a strap holding the boom to the mast so that it doesn't fly away from the mast on that tack. It sounds like you're saying that having the ability for the entire sail to move forward or aft is important for downwind safety. I guess this is why Goat Island Skiff sailors like to tie the bleater to the foreward end of the boom. I'll have to give it a try.
@@fossilfool I have mine running from the lower part of the mast to a small block near the forward end of the boom and back through a cam cleat on the low opposite side of the mast. As the boom rotates port to starboard the block allows the bleater line to self adjust, while adding a downward and back pull
Your boat acts like a weathervain on downwind sailing. It wants to swing the light end of the boat downwind. Try shifting the weight further back. Furthermore it seems like the waterspeed is faster than the boats top speed and that will also swing the boat around because the water is pushing against the rudder.
Thanks for a good video. It seems that SF bay has a lot of choppy waves compared to other coastal areas and this has a stalling effect of a light boat. The downhaul needs to be tensioned strongly in a balanced lug. And check out Venturi Dinghy Self Bailer gadget.
Thx for watching. I've installed 2 Anderson bailers and they're good but not great. Speed has to be pretty high. They seem to work well downwind and mediocre upwind.
@@fossilfool I have also been thinking you may benefit from having more of balance in the tension between between halyard and the downhaul. I would start with Bolger's "103 Sailiung Rigs Straight Talk" book which is probably available via a library . He encourages the downhaul position to movable on the boom for reefing. Engineer and boat designer Jim Michalak used to have good reference material online describing the engineering considerations of low tech rigs. I guess Duckduckgo could help discover this information on economical sailing. Michael Storer is another very experienced hand with lug rig settings.
Geez mate!!! Talk about angels looking after fools and babes I've had a lifetime sailing dinghies in those conditions and you were doing just about everything wrong But luckily that wrong downhaul position and tension allowed the head of the sail to totally de-power - otherwise the propeller affect up there would have thrown you over to windwood capsized. With a reefed sail, taught downhaul
I know. I also think that this sail is on the small size for the hull and so it's a bit reefed even when it's not reefed. That helped. 105 sq ft of sail for a 17' boat. Do you agree? Thx for watching!
You were planing...its when you break your wake...and it is noticable. The tiller pull is called weather help...you need to make a Sunfish racing vang...easy to tie up
Raising the centerboard helps a lot. As a beginner I was scared to do so thinking I'd have no control with out the centerboard, but once I got past that, I raise and lower the board a lot.
I loved this video. You guys did very well, i think. Looks like a fine boat. Regarding the downwind steering difficulty. I know it is common. I've experienced the same thing on a 38 foot keel boat with a spinnaker up. think it has to do with sail trim as Ross said. I hope someone more knowledgeable will explain why this happens. a moment of carelessness and over you go to windward! quick. Its happened to me in a dinghy, and at 71 years old, i'm still wondering what happened. Very Fun Video!
Thx for watching. With a smaller sail and the centerboard up things have gotten a lot better in similar conditions. I got the idea to go out to the same spot on a big day with someone experienced from the Cal Sailing Club and practice.
Excuse me, I haven't understood what boat she is (what plan?)... Have you tried to upright your boat after a capsizing? I don't see any lateral buyoancy and I am wondering if the boat wouldn't be full of water after the uprighting and if it would not be hard to sail again quickly. Anyway, a beautiful boat and some bold sailings. Congratulations!
@@onclebrfbrf Thx for your interest. It's true about the lateral buoyancy. When I have done a capsize test (in flat water) what I found is that the boat is very easy to right but that it scoops up a lot of water. My concern is that if I capsize in San Francisco Bay it will most likely be during choppy windy conditions. When I right this boat, it will be sitting so low, that a wave can easily undo all the bailing or recapsize me. I have thought of inventing a CO2 based flotation system that I can trigger from outside the boat after righting the boat but before climbing back in. CO2 cannisters are popular in the bicycling world. They are small and and replaceable. I have thought that if I can essentially put large durable bicycle innertubes inside of some sort of long net under the side decks in the midships, then when I hit the CO2 it will lift the boat enough to make it more stable for climbing in, and bailing.
@@onclebrfbrf I have looked into those but my search didn't turn up much. Do you know any of the product or brand names? Because my hull has that sweet translucency I don't want to block it with bulky inflated pillows or dock fenders. I was imagining something that is only ever inflated in an emergency. / Paul
Can you recover from a capsize and sail out of it? If not, who is coming to rescue you? I notice you do not have transom scuppers nor self bailers. You have considerable weather helm on your return trip because the main is being overpowered. Reducing the sail area by reefing will help. You will improve control without sacrificing speed. I am not familiar with your rig but I do not see any reefing points in the main. Be careful out there!
Thx for your concern Rob. I just installed autobailers, which is why we weren't doing much bailing in the Angel Island portion of the vid. I don't have enough practice recovering from a capsize in flat water or in the waves. It does concern me as well. The rig is a Really Simple Sails balanced lug and has 3 reef lines.
@@conradwhite99 have a look on the rigging guide of the goat island skiff. There is a good and simple explanation how they handle the problem with a simple preventer which stops moving the boom moves forward whilest the downhaul is placed several centimeters aft of the mast (15 to 20cm depends on rig) to act as a vang too. So it will close the leech of the sail and reduces twist. Specially to make the rigg more controlable under high wind conditions on reaching courses.
@@AxelWeissenberger Thanks Axel .. and in those winds CRAZY tension on the downhaul - because of its offset from the front of the boom it has a vanging effect.
That's about a 'soft' plane. If you're going to sail on San Francisco Bay, you might consider installing an Elvstrom Bailer. The tiller position indicates you've got weather helm. That's the usual condition with a cat rig. With a well balanced rig you'd have the tiller centered.
Thx Denis, and a quick follow up. When you say we are on a soft plane are you talking about the upwind part of the video (about 12 minutes) where I ask the question or the downwind part where we are surfing waves?
Have you thought about putting toe straps in the bottom of your boat? It would mean you can sit up on the sides and hike out better. Means you would be able to keep the hull flatter in the water making it easier to maintain your course. The more the boat heals over the more it will try to turn and the more you will fight against the rudder.
Maybe? My Banshee has hiking straps and I like them but I don't want to clutter the translucent G10 floor of the First Mod too much. I recently put grippy gritty powder in my varnish coat in order to reduce slips. It feels only mildly likely to improve things. Thanks for watching!
@@fossilfool yea planing is usually in short bursts. I think maybe I've had 2-3 minutes bursts the longests -- gravity usually prevails when you drop speed 🤪. I have a video somewhere on my laptop on a keelboat Wylie Wabbit 24 from designer Thomas Wylie (from the bay area as well - I'm from San Rafael). I was going downwind precisely near the alameda and point Richmond when the hull lifted above the wake and this crazy high-pitched vacumn cleaner sound came out of nowere. "Bvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv!!" The entire boat vibrated- pretty cool stuff.
I sail al balanced lug on a CLC passage-maker dinghy and find that when going downwind I let the boom ride forward along the mast so not so much sail area is aft of the mast trying to push thee stern around. Also of course it seems to me with the wind you have. you should probably have reef tied in. I find that downwind gusts provide a lot of adrenalin and have snapped two masts on that heading. Reef in early. I continue to make stronger ,masts to deal with the gusts (can't look both directions at once).
Great comment, thx Gerry. Awesome to hear from people who sail the same rig. Biggest change I've made since posting this vid is reefing according to the conditions, and also sailing with the centerboard up downwind. Amazing that you've snapped multiple masts.
@@fossilfool I live on the west coast of Canada. My first mast was a stick from the forest and seemed perfect for a while, but I was forced to gybe due to wind and strong current conditions and when it came around my partner didn't let the sheet out fully so it could swing tack to windward enough...full sail up !...then everything down - I guess that is one way to reef! Once I was out camping/sailing for 6 weeks up the coast and had full sail up in extremely variable winds - nearly zero to gust coming from anywhere at15 knots. Since I had all my gear/food etc for 6 weeks I was pretty heavy and the gust caught me from behind and I couldn't accelerate fast enough for the conditions...the top of the mast accelerated faster (and farther) than I did! The other time I just wasn't paying attention enough and although sailing down wind, the wind was dying and I failed to notice a squall coming up behind me. I had cleated the sheet to do something else when it hit and couldn't release it fast enough. Also since I was only a few hundred metres from my destination I became a little lax I guess. That gust was there just to wake me up! I think I have learned my lessons.... Pay attention, reef early.
with the downward sailing, it is just the way it rolls lol. I have a little el toro sailboat and it just is that way. some things will slightly change it but at the end of the day.
Hey, is this your own design? Looks great. I like your stern traveler, excellent positioning. I notice you have some water sloshing around; my Harpoon has auto-bailers. Are you familiar with how they work? (Water passing under the boat creates suction that pulls the water from inside the boat. Then they naturally don't allow water back in.) I wonder if you could buy and fit auto-bailers into your own boat. Might be useful to you. (Sorry if I'm speaking out of turn, I haven't seen or read anything on your design.)
Thx Dave, It's a Ross Lillistone First Mate, scaled up and modified for bike trailing. Have since installed good auto bailers and I'm thankful to have them.
Nice video Maybe a reef would have helped balance your sail for rudder force ratio. Most of your sale was on the left, pushing you to the right and overpowering your rudder. Other rigs might use the second sail forward of the main to balance the situation by flying on the opposite side. Yeah, maybe reef a bit.
I think your downwind rudder problem is because the kick up blade is trailing at an angle back from vertical. This rake will load the tiller with a heavy pull but not steer the boat. When the rudder is vertical the tiller load goes away or at least is very mild and the steering is effective up until when the rudder blade stalls. Then the tiller goes out to large angles and the boat does not steer your course , but there is no heavy pull. I speak from much experience with four types of boats that had kickup rudders. You need a down haul on the rudder and you need to set it really firm after reaching deep water. You will need to release the down haul to beach !
This is great! I used to rent boats to sail on the SF bay. Now I have a boat and live nowhere near there. It sounds like you made your boat and spars. Did you have plans to make the mast and boom?
For the mast and boom I developed my own process using carbon fiber sleeving. I practiced on the oars first to figure out how to make them hollow without a mandrill. Then the boom. By the time I made the mast I had the technique down. Feel free to reach out if you want tips.
Well done Fossilfool. I rekon you are living the meaning of life. Not so long ago I finished building a phoenix 111and have been out a few times. Have already been caught in a strong wind change with no reef set up. Working on my reef set up at the moment. What method do you use to keep the yard close to the mast when you reef ?
Thanks a lot John. I have yet to reef on open water. I reef at the dock in Emeryville and then usually just stick with my decision. Once I got spooked and dove for a mooring ball at Treasure Island, then reefed there. That's great you built a Pheonix III !
Yes, I really enjoyed the boat building experience. My first build was a chesapeake 16 foot kayak. From what I have read there are some serial boat builders out there and sometimes I wonder if I could do one more. What exactly is your hull made of and why did you use choose that material ?
@@johnbrame3023 The translucent sections are made of 1/16" G10 sheet. I had the sheets in my shop from another project (a translucent illuminated speaker build). 1/16" G10 is tougher than plywood and as strong (when measured in tensile strength) as 1/4" marine plywood. 1/4" ply was what I was supposed to use if I had followed the plans. G10 is inherently rot proof. So I went for the G10 and made efforts to compensate for its one drawback: its flexibility.
Regarding planning, a boat moving through water creates a bow wave. The maximum speed of a boat driving a bow wave is determined by its length. If your boat can climb over the bow wave, then speed is unlimited.
Interesting. I'm learning a standing lug on a Peapod. The last outing had water over the rails and me rowing back to dock. Now I have reef points, down haul and an out haul set up. Sadly, Covid and fires have put a damper on trying it out. I'd be very interested in learning why you had a hard time keeping on course. Do you think it's because of the sail twist Ross mentioned? Cheers.
Thanks for watching! It's because my sail was too big and my centerboard was down. These days I always raise the cboard on a run. It helps you slide around and not get tripped on waves.
Thanks! They’re my own design. They’re 9.5’ long which feels right for this boat with its 68” beam. As with many things I’ve designed that split apart or serve multi functions, I tend to settle on the most convenient mode, so stow them at full length these days. I’m happy with the weight, under 3 pounds each.
It has been mentioned, but, downwind keep the weight aft to keep the tiller deep. Practice steering by weight movement of the crew - move right to go left and vice versa. The boom rising is a good auto-trim by depowering. Upwind weight forward.
If you build the dinghy with more lateral resistance under the mast rather than the boom the boat will handle better. The heeling over is easier to control if the lateral resistance is under mast. You can ease the sails or turn up. A normal sailboat design is deeper in the bow. This deepest point is the stem and makes the boat seaworthy design stem to stern academic keeling.
Nice video! Useful commentary! Impressive to see you bike your boat and gear to the water! That downwind sailing looked scary to me too! I think the boom could do with some more stiffness but I would be interested to hear what the designer has to say. The downhaul would only control the leech of the sail wouldn't it? I don't see how beefing up the downhaul would straighten up the boom in heavy downwind weather. I have dropped Willy Weather and instead use Windy, they have an app also so check it out. Keep us posted.
On my last sail, the first I accepted a rescue, the harbor master who towed me in vouched for the NOA on the weather channel of my VHF radio as the most reliable predictor of big conditions. I think Windy is OK. I think the most reliable is to use a site where you can see where their weather stations are. Then check in with it on windy days, even when you're not sailing to get in tune with it. I like windfinder for that. Thanks for watching!
That's a sweet boat and a great rig. I've sailed lugs a lot, and really appreciate their simplicity. I find a lug rig is a great sailing instructor: more than other rigs, you can try things out: what happens if I shove the boom far to windward, or to lee, or if I snug or ease this or that? The wind will tell you, and you'll understand sails a bit more. You seemed to struggle with the sheet. Could you rig it with less mechanical advantage, so the sail moves more when you haul in the sheet? It may be that increase in strain is worth getting more response from the sail. As for planing: you're on a plane whenever you exceed your boat's hull speed (I don't know your boats LWL, but it's hull speed is somewhere around 6-7 mph). Since your hull does't look very flat, that may take a lot of wind. Controlling the boat doesn't change radically when planing.
Nice! I don't know how I'd increase the mechanical advantage on the main sheet. Fewer blocks? I was thinking of installing a recessed jam cleat in the deck near where I sit, in order to grab the sheet further up. Otherwise I'm doing things like you see in the vid where I can't advance the sheet without the sail changing a lot.
@@fossilfool You've got a jam cleat in your head. Hold the sheet in your teeth when you need an extra hand. With the mechanical advantage you have it won't rip your teeth out
@@stevep5819 I do that but feel ashamed, like the sailors on the internet will look down on me ;) or that I'm missing something. Thanks for suggesting it!
You need two downhauls on the boom. One to forward end pulling the boom back, and one to act as a wang. Raise keel 2/3 to prevent sideslipping. Move body art to prevent nose digging. Flatten sail with outhaul/downhauls. Lower sail to take inn a reef, rehoist. Use small seaanchor for rerigging and rest.
The main part of the sail is possibly not being properly counter balanced by the forward part in front of the mast. Maybe the sail needs to be adjusted slightly to give you a bit more leverage down to leeward?
Thx for watching. Nowadays if I have the presence of mind to do so I like to pull the attachment point for the downhaul backwards on the boom. This has the effect of increasing the amount of sail on the other side of the mast and keeping the sail flat downwind.
Rudder load / balance he needed weight back like him back corner and his crew sitting right next to him the boat would have lifted up and gone faster less load better balance etc. Do you have hiking straps? Thats a safety and need for SF sailing in a boat like that👍
Hey Trent, thx for watching. I haven't felt the need for hiking straps yet. Paul Hernes from Australia is shown hooking a tow in to the thwart on his vid, search Phoenix III, the sister design of my boat (Ross Lillistone First Mate). Yes, loud and clear about weight aft! I've tried it but to be honest I haven't sailed downwind in as much breeze as this since this thing was shot.
@@fossilfool The hiking strap let’s you position farther back in the boat and help keep you in it as it accelerates and/or bounces over the wakes. When the boat gets up on plane the ride is very different and straps become very obvious 👍
@@U20E27 Thx, what would you suggest for getting on plane when I'm on a reach? Do I need more sail area? From what I have read we were only planing in the downwind part of the video.
@@fossilfool Power and weight back. To power up your sail in that video you needed a boom vang to hold the boom down ie keep it from lifting up high and dumping the wind pressure out of the sail. However! More boomvang tension can put a large side load on the mast and is often the cause of mast failure so it’s a balance between not breaking your mast and powering up the sail.
Hey Paul, Thanks for sending me the link to the video. I admire the fact that you are out there challenging yourself and the boat, pushing hard to learn from experience. There are a number of things I will talk with you about in emails, especially after a few more viewings of the video, but here are some first impressions.
In the first part of the clip where you are heading out to the island you make the point about rounding-up into steeper waves. I would not do that unless the wave was extreme, and would continue on course and take the wave on the angle of normal approach. That way the boat 'sees' a less steep wave with a less steep following slope. Think about riding you bike up a steep bank or ramp at an angle. Also, I think you and your friend could have been further forward in the boat on that up-wind leg.
On the down-wind parts of the video the boom and yard were allowed to be too far out in relation to the centreline of the boat. Also, the down-haul needs to be further aft on the boom and tensioned much harder so as to increase luff-tension and to perform the same function as a vang at the same time. You will find the outer end of the boom will be tamed and not rise so high, and the sail will show less twist as you look up to the yard. The way you were sailing in the video it appeared as though the yard was further forward than 90 degrees to the centreline of the boat, and that is guaranteed to place you at risk of a 'Death Roll' because of the chaotic airflow over the sail. The end result is a feeling of being on the edge of control at best, and being capsised to windward at worst.
I would not allow the yard the swing outboard more than about 75 to 80 degrees off the centreline of the boat, which probably means that the boom would only be about 50 or 60 degrees off the centreline if the downhaul is well tensioned and attached to the boom well aft of the mast. If conditions are tough, try tacking downwind - i.e. sail at an angle to the direct course downwind so that there is no chance of an accidental gybe, and then when you are ready for it, haul the mainsheet in to get the boom closer to the centreline and carry-out a deliberate gybe, ease out the mainsheet and head off at a corresponding angle to the wind in the other direction. So you end up zig-zagging downwind to your destination, but under more control. If doing a deliberate gybe is too intimidating in the conditions, just do a tack as you would going to windward. You will have to do a 270 degree turn each time, but you will be safe.
Lastly, regarding me saying that the boat is 'dry', that is a relative term. Any small dinghy sailing fast to windward will throw spray, but trust me when I tell you that she is a 'dry' boat comparatively speaking - I've been sailing small boats on the windy east coast of Australia for 61 years, and I have known lots of 'wet' boats. Do consider installing self-bailers, by the way.
Congratulations on your on-going adventure, but also take care and 'hasten slowly' in your learning! The sea is lots of fun, but is very unforgiving - when things go wrong, they usually go wrong fast!
Ross Lillistone
Dear Ross, thanks much for writing. It's been fun to connect with you and other sailors through RUclips. It is helping me improve on my off days, and feel more comfortable when I'm back out there. I appreciate the time that you and others are putting in to helping me along. I will try your tips. From what you wrote it seems that the size of that particular wave in the vid at 1:45 isn't big enough merit changing course. It didn't feel like that to me!
Since I've read all the comments and since I don't expect you or others to, I will synthesize what I've learned here:
1. Don't let the sail out so far on the downwind leg. I'm in danger of the Death Roll and was fortunate that didn't happen on the day of this vid. My reply is that I knew of that risk but was concerned about an accidental gybe. If the wind is behind me and my sail is closer to the wind I would be more at risk of the sail getting tossed to the other side.
2. Learn to reef. The conditions shown here merit 1 or 2 reefs. Aye aye! [On Sunday 8/9/20, 3 days after posting this vid, I saw whitecaps everywhere as we biked out to the point. I tried reefing at the dock, using just extra rope. I put in 2 reefs and the effect was as desired. I'll be doing this more often.]
3. Don't go directly downwind. Safer to tack downwind. If I am going directly downwind, raise the centerboard some.
4. More effective vanging is needed. That was already known and I've taken some steps to improve the downhaul since this sail.
5. Don't assume my good luck will continue in terms of capsizing. Have a plan. Be ready. Practice capsizing.
6. Moving forward on a surf might cause a broach. If anything sit further back on the downwind leg. Sit forward on the upwind leg.
Great suggestions, Ross! Your 60+ years of experience are very obvious. Thank you for sharing! Fernando de Martino
@@fossilfool .... excellent summary. I'd add ... game out your tacks with sketches. When you are sailing downwind, or even on a broad reach, "remember" which tack you are on so that you don't "accidentally" jibe.
@@cornersc I'm following most of the lingo in these comments but alas struggling with "game out your tacks with sketches." Might you please clarify?
@@danielheistg9385 ... things can happen fast in a small boat, especially when the wind is blowing. If you Google a "points of sail" graphic, or make your own, you can think through your tacks ahead of time. It's easy when you're on close reach or or on a beam reach, but we can easily make mistakes on a broad reach or a run that will cause us to jibe and take on enough water that we'll capsize. I actually draw a diagram for a run with my sail on a port or starboard tack, add an arrow for the wind, and then mentally "walk" through my tacks by drawing a picture.
When you're planing, you're sailing over your bow wake. So it will look like the wake comes from the middle of the boat. Also, downwind - your weight should be BACK, not forward. putting the weight forward causes the bow to dig in, and twist up or downwind ... called a broach. Also, raise the board, so when you do broach, it doesn't dig in.
Thanks Charlie. Seeing a bunch of people saying to shift back. Will try it!
Yep, weigh aft while going down wind. Keep that rudder deep in the water counter balancing the downward force of the wind on the sail. Lift that center or dagger board. I drove the mast of 12 foot wood dinghy through its deck and the bottom of the hull in 40 mph winds with myself and two of my buddies sitting on the transom. Forces can be awesome! Learned not to ignore small craft warnings or at least not running downwind wile they are out. Moral of the story, weight aft but there are other limiting factors. ;)
Spoken like a pro take this man's advice and you'll do well on SF Bay I lived on a cal 30 in SF now I live on a 11 foot penguin in Monterey Bay
Wise words.
@@justintyme720 you LIVE on a Penguin?!? Hats off to you - Penguins are considered narrow even for an 11 ft. dinghy. Used to frostbite them on the E. Coast.
Absolutely brilliant;love the bike trailering rig,would love a video on that and adaptability to other boats.Great job crossing waves.
Thanks James, in these 2 videos you can see some of the details and thoughts that have gone into bike sailing: ruclips.net/video/J5dOyEOeY6g/видео.html
ruclips.net/video/zSy3L9q11gk/видео.html
Maybe I'll do another that really focuses on how to. Thx for the encouragement!
The most impressive part of the video for me is what is happening on land! Towing boat by bike!!! That's cool!!!
I like your bike towing set up!
Thank you for making the effort to retrieve discarded litter!!!! Stunning little dinghy!!
Of course!
I've kayaked the SF Bay for 25 years, so I know those waters well. When the wind gets over 15 knots, I'm out. You're a badass for going out those conditions. That which does not kill you makes you stronger.
Thanks for saying that. My first Bay sailboat was an inflatable kayak with a SailboatsToGo sailing system installed. I recommend their product. Fun!
many good comments already: first is "Reef Early" - you were overpowered because you flew too much canvas. Next: be sure you can recover from a capsize. (that should have been first) Getting the weight back will make a huge difference if you want to surf and sail on the edge. Finally, a ground rule for running or broad-reaching with a lug sail is to NEVER allow the yard go in front of the mast, i.e. beyond a right angle of the center line of the boat. Though the top of the yard was not visible in your video I had a pretty good sense that on many occasions the tip was way ahead of the mast thereby pushing the boat to windward. Hence the excessive weather helm. You guys should have both been sitting way in the back with crew hiking out and boom sheeted in. - I sail an Ilur with a large lug rig and I know the feeling you must have been experiencing in this video.
Thanks for your tips Chris! RUclips sailing world is thriving from my perspective. I've learned a lot from the comments so far.
You guys are animals.. love it. besides all good points already given, I have a few. You looked over-canvassed to me, and so even if you're doing everything else right, things can still go squirrely really quickly. But you felt that! On wind forecasts. I grew up surfing in SF (so watching wind like a hawk daily for 20 years because it was 95% of the time our limiting factor) and if the sun is out, 9 times out of 10 its blowing at least 20 knots by the afternoon. Don't care what the report says. So default; plan on +20 (unless late fall Indian summer). But super cool video, and love you're out there getting after it!
Summer afternoon on the Bay is often as tough and wet as dingy sailing gets. I always wore a wet duit
Very nice rig
Do you think sailing in the Pacific just outside the GG Bridge is easier? Like Bodega Bay, where it faces the open ocean? Thx for watching!
I reefed today! It worked :)
Good wind speed predictor for SF bAy: (temp in Sacramento) - (temp of ocean) divide by 2. 100deg - 55deg /2 = 22 kts avg.
@@brianboschma Thx for sharing!
On my Paradox, when running downwind, I often reef as much as half the sail. I go a little slower (possibly) but everything is incredibly relaxed, even in strong conditions. I second Ross's comments about not letting the yard out more than 90 degrees.
Thx for your tips! I checked out your channel, great sailing footage on your Microcruiser vid.
Great video. Just to add to the other comments about reefing... It is a good idea to have a reefing line rigged through your cringles so you can quickly reef as needed. I am sure you have seen the videos describing this feature.
I sail a balanced lug Caledonia Yawl with a mizzen. I have learned that downhaul position and tension is critical to safety and performance. I would also recommend that you practice capsize and self rescue in a controlled safe water area. You will need be able to bail your boat after a capsize. A larger canvas bucket is a good thing to have on board.
Thx, @Ross Lillistone has a good reefing instruction video on his channel for the sister boat Phoenix III.
I use a square food container. I'm going to do a capsize test soon. My previous attempt was more of a hatch test because the tide was too low to do a proper capsize test. It's on my channel.
Read a few of the comments and all are spot on about your weather helm. Downwind, dagger board UP and weight aft. All the comments about downhaul and angle of the boom and sail are spot on. Given that you're sailing downwind with a lively quartering sea you will always need to be attentive to light non-displacement hulls sliding and surfing, that is another reason for the dagger board to be UP, having that point of lateral resistance forward causes dramatic and dangerously sudden responses. And yes, I agree with the comments on your having too much sail area for the conditions! But DAMN that looked fun! You're also learning great lessons. One of which is that any sailboat is communicating with her helmsman and her sailors constantly and you're learning that language now. Weather helm is your little craft telling you that there are some things wrong with her, too much effort aft of the center of underwater lateral resistance among other things. Generally, it is advantageous in small craft like yours that are lightening quick in their responses, to have a little weather helm in these conditions as it's a failsafe when in danger of capsizing. Let go of the tiller and round up into the wind.
Ideas keep coming up! Sailing downwind is the most technical and sensitive of conditions. In even the largest of displacement racing hulls with keels, that does not change. Even the slight shifting of one person in a 6-8-man crew can adversely affect your speed and handling. Add a spinnaker whose effort is so far forward that it wants to push the bow down and you'll understand better why you want more weight aft and no farther forward than the athwartship centerline as a rule of thumb. I'm a square rig, big ship sailor and a schooner-man but I grew up sailing skiffs and small craft. My older brother is/was one of the top racing sailors internationally and racing with him on his 30-foot class boat, was a real treat for a non-racing type like myself. Downwind we were expected to move to where he directed us and to remain as still as possible! There is a lot of activity sailing downwind, trimming sail constantly and the slightest change in wind direction and movement of the boat needs to be balanced to keep the speed up and not lose steering. In your case with your dagger board down and weight forward you were RIGHT to be concerned and apprehensive to sail downwind again. In a larger craft/displacement hull the danger would have been even greater. At any moment you could have slid down a wave face, snapped to windward, (weight forward) dug your bow in deep, heeled to leeward, dug your boom into the water and broached. In those conditions, things break, chaos ensues and it's NO fun at all.
Don't stop challenging yourself and your fair little craft and KEEP sailing down wind, just move the weight aft and pull up the dagger board halfway or out completely and tuck in a reef if the conditions are as STIFF as they were that day. I sailed a 125' schooner, the Californian, in the Bay all one summer. We won the Master Mariners Race that year, beating Harold Summers' Wanderbird by 45 seconds! We carried all sail including our little square sail down wind.
Thanks for your careful watch and tips. I've implemented all the comments and improved my experience downwind measurably since posting this vid. Honestly the education I've received is the most valuable part of being a youtube poster. I just bought into a Cal 33 and I plan to post footage of sailing it to garner tips from more experienced sailors. How would one join in to crew on a sail of one of those Master Mariners boats? Sounds awesome!
Nice video! As a newer dinghy sailor I appreciate reading the comments.
Thx Derek, so many knowledgeable folks pitching in. Lots to learn from RUclips sailing ;)
Great footage and well done on your First Mate build! One suggestion, try to get that tiller extension in front of your body. Sailing in heavy conditions with the tiller extension behind your back can lead to inadvertent snagging and sudden loss of control .... don't ask how I know!!
Thanks Eric, I'll try it :)
Ditto, absolutely essential to learn how to hold the extension and sheet for control. Look at how the guy in this video sits and moves: ruclips.net/video/MkVZ2tHrLSg/видео.html Also, I don’t know if you have a ratchet block but you need one. It will give you much better control of the sail and less strain on your hands, which becomes not only comfort but safety issue in windy conditions. Awesome boat, thanks for sharing your adventures. Fair winds!
@@Moleasses102 Thx for sharing the vid. Yes, the block closest to me is a ratchet. Will keep you posted.
nice, no nonsense and humble:) Great spirit!
Thanks for your support Linda! I got one coming out today that I think you'll like as well :)
This is GREAT! Subscribed! I used to sail out of Berkeley to Angel Island ask the time. Now my friends boat is at Sausalito.
Thx for watching and sharing in the adventure.
Wow. So glad this video appeared in my recommended... love what you’ve built, how you trailer and you’re really great video of your sails in SF Bay. Thank you for sharing your adventures. I’ve read some good posts here and imagine by now you’ve solved a few issues and made the tweaks Ross suggested. Ross has been a great resource to me with several issues encountered sailing my Phoenix lll. Can’t wait to see what other videos you have posted.
One easy mod I’ve done which I highly recommend is a down haul on the center board. Had it jam more than once after sand worked into the case after beaching. I didn’t know I had a problem till I’d made my way past the breakers and got myself into some trouble.
Thx for watching Diana. Great to connect with other Ross Lillistone builders. I wish he were still hosting his facebook group! Yes, I have integrated a lot of the tips here into my sailing and things are feeling better in similar conditions.
My cboard has a rod pushing it down and a cord to pull it back up. Would you still recommend a downhaul? Not clear why that would be better than what I have.
Beautiful work on the boat! And major love to you for going out on the Bay and working it! As an old Laser sailor, I can reinforce some of what others have said. Centerboard up when sailing downwind, try not to sail directly downwind, and letting the mainsheet out too far is the quickest way to experience a death roll. Also, the more speed you have the easier it is to head further downwind (to a point). Good luck, and stay safe!
Thx a lot Jon
Wonderful sail. I know what you mean about being nervous in certain situations, especially those down wind sections. Happy sailing!
Thx for watching:}
Great video, challenging sailing, a great boat to try it in. Reducing sail calms everything down, inc your pounding heart. A few thoughts:
Planing starts when the stern wake leaves the transom. Easy to see from your cemera angle; when the wake off the transom goes slick, you're planing. when the wake catches up with the transom, you've come off the plane.
Bouyancy bags are a good fix BUT they must be strapped in really securely or they will just pop out from their own flotation force when they are immersed, possibly ripping. Use car seat belt webbing or toe strap webbing and screw it down with doubler plates over the straps into solid boat structure. Or sew a canvass cover for the bag that is screwed to the boat along one edge with a metal bar drilled for the screws, lace or strap down the opposite edge. The flotation forces are big.
Looks like you could do with a significantly stiffer boom.
The 'skiff sheeting' arrangement where the sheet comes from the boom to the hand is NOT my favourite because it needs two hands too haul in and always feel mushy to me. In skiffs, it is usually operated by the crew, not the helm. Have you got a ratchet on the last block? That helps a lot. But I would prefer the last block as a ratchet on the thwart or in the bottom of the boat (like on a Laser for example). There is a reason that is normal in racing sailboats (except skiffs) ; it works better!
Try heaving to with the sail out at around 90 deg to the boat and flapping, sheet slack, with plenty of downhaul. Put the tiller down a bit and play with pulling up the centreboard maybe half way so you can achieve a relaxed stabiity, roughly beam on to the weather. Note that its not that easy to reef from this position so think abourt setting up your reefing lines so that it is possible. The ideal of having the boat head to wind aint going to happen unless you are anchored or moored. Though you could try a drogue!
Good tips, thx Tom! I've had a bunch of good sailing since this vid and have tried reefing and also raising the board on my broad reaches and runs. Way nicer. Yes, I have a ratchet on the last block. The reason I didn't rig it like the Laser is I wanted nothing in the way when I row.
Love what you are doing, glad I stumbled onto your zone as I think we following same learning curve, having gotten my dinghy this past summer (Pirate dinghy). The other day I learned all about the calm before the storm. There were clouds building but absolutely no wind. I thought about chilling and having a snack while I wait, then I thought... "is this the calm before the storm?" I hurriedly prepared the boat and then bang, the wind overtook me all at once and it was a scary but fast ride back to the anchorage. If I hadn't organised the ropes and packed things away I wouldn't have kept the last bit of control I managed! With the wind strong from aft, I wasn't confident enough to bring the dinghy back around to wind as I felt it would blow me over, but from comments, I read it seems I should have done just that and then let the wind spill out. Maybe your viewers have better advice? I was single-handed and in the end, I hurriedly tied the tiller down as a makeshift autopilot and risked moving to mast to fight the mainsail down which was ballooning and twisting up the mast! Once I managed, I could steer a decent run under the jib alone. Most exhilarating sail so far.
Good story :) So had you been trying to lower your sail before you set your autopilot and went forward? Did your sail really twist around the mast? Was it a balanced lug sail?
Maybe terminology off, but I would call it a normal sloop rig sail, with mainsail and jib. You can wiki to boat. Sail didn't twist around mast, but was pressed up hard against the shroud and the boom was lifting up creating a ballooned and squashed sail... Until then, my go to in gusts was to decrease power by letting the sail out a bit. In this situation it didn't have that effect, just unsettle dinghy more. And there is no autopilot, I just tied the tiller down so that I could leave it long enough to tackle the sail... Anyway, I will be checking in for your progress...
Hi Paul... I love sailing on the edge of sensible, its thrilling and you learn a lot. I too have got myself in stuations where i was fine but probably should not have been out. I look for 3 lemons as a way for assessing risk, ie big winds =1 lemon, inexperienced crew or sailers = 1 lemon, not sure of self rescue =1 lemon, unfamiliar gear =1 lemon..etc.... once you get to 3 lemons the consequence of one thing going wrong becomes dangerous... big wave... being swamped.... gear breaking.... man overboard.... there will always be the unpredictable... have a plan B. and redundancy planned into gear and situation. I hope this doesnt come across as preachy. I have found this a good way of assessing the day and also finding in reflection a new lemon :)..... I have never heard of bike sailing and enjoy the concept
Your feedback is helpful! I've since done a successful capsize test, but it was at a small lake, very different beast from the wind waves of SF Bay. I would like to do a more challenging capsize test also.
You should have a wind indicator because when you said that you were downwind at times you were sailing almost against the wind. Going downwind is important for both of you to stay as much as possible aft, at th back of th dinghy. Th most dangerous thing during downwind is accidental jibe. The wind indicator is very useful in this case. Finally, you have to continue to experiment and exercise in all conditions with high prudence. Small boats are less forgiving than large boats. Nice video. Thanks a lot, Fernando de Martino
What’s your favorite wind indicator Fernando? Thx for the cool tips.
Enjoyed the video and analysis. Very interesting. I miss sailing.
Thx and hope you get to go soon:)
And it was almost the only rock on the beach! But i do like how your cam seems to be gimballed.
Thx Mark, not gimballed. Just a 4' rigid boom and whatever stabilization the GoPro7 has. I am planning to do a vid about camera gear and custom camera mounts for this type of sailing. Please subscribe!
Wow... great video, the camera off the back is great. Love the bike towing. Really going for it. Looks scary as hell to me, but I know nothing about sailing. Never been down to the sea in ships.... Would not fancy spending too much time swimming in that water.
Thanks for taking a look!
судно хорошее,сьёмка отличная, молодец! спасибо
The balanced lug is a wonderfully versatile rig. A large consideration is the amount and direction of the downhaul force. It is not unusual to have a double downhaul system, one aimed more at luff tension while sailing upwind and the second used to position the boom for or aft in relation to the mast.
The downwind benefit of the balanced lug is the ability to slide the rig "forward" effectively putting some of it sail area on each side of the mast, balancing the forces on the boat (less rudder force needed) and reducing the threat of an accidental jibe.
Michael Storer has written about the balanced lug in some detail and there are numerous examples of ways to rig downhails to better the rigs performance. Enjoy the boat, the bay is a great place to explore.
Thx for the tips! Given the conditions I would feel pretty nervous changing the attachment point of the downhaul on the boom while on the water. Do you do this when preparing for downwind?
On my lug, there's no removing or switching over of anything g, its a matter of tightening or loosing the downhauls that allow the the boom to move forward of aft.
So do both downhauls come to the same point to where it looks like a V from the side?
Yeah, the downhauls look like a V. That allows you to tension the rig with it moved forward or aft. Its a slick system.
Awesome video. To conquer the fear once and for all you need to actually capsize and recover and repeat until your confidence is established. Start in controlled conditions with assistance at hand if needed. Capsize in as many different ways as the boat allows, over-sheeting in a gust, fumbling a gybe etc. It will teach you all the boat's limits in the process.
Hi William, thx a lot. I have done 2 in flat water so far. I am concerned about being able to do it in the chop and I do plan to practice this summer with support from the Cal Sailing Club. I also have an idea to do a CO2 system that lifts the boat, since it sits low after a capsize. It is not stable to be inside when it's full of water. So my thought is deployable emergency buoyancy to make it not tip while you bail. The boat was designed to be 'self-rescuable' according to Lillistone. This means easy to right. It is very easy to right. But I think it sits too low for safe bailing. Lillistone says it may be necessary to bail from outside!
Buoyancy just inboard and along the gunnel will let the boat float higher when capsized making it a bit more difficult to right but it greatly reduces the amount of water scooped when righting. I capsized my Miracle in similar conditions. It has full length side tanks and floats very high. The mast has no buoyancy so it turned turtle. When we finally got it upright, the amount of water inside did not prevent us from getting under way. We just bailed as we sailed along.
Down wind sailing in stiff winds is always challenging. It's even more of a challenge when you're sailing a catboat. With all of the sail on one side the weather helm can be excessive. You might try raising the dagggerboard even more. With a pivoting centerboard when you raise it, the center of lateral resistance moves aft, improving the heavy helm forces. Reefing will help.
Totally agree about raising the board downwind. I slide around when the gusts hit, leading to less heeling. Thx for watching!
At 15:20 look at how much sail is on each side of the mast. That’s got to turn you to the right. As advised, reefing is a wise option too. You’re on SF Bay, in a light boat, with all canvas flying, learning how to handle things, and concerned about being on the ragged edge. I think most of the sailing community would tell you that you’re pushing too hard.
They are a decent set of proper oars you got there man, veritable sweeps! Nice vid.
Thanks a lot. I've been rowing this winter when the wind is low and the water is flat. I love how little there is to do at the dock, barely have to tie off.
IMHO that is a relatively dry dinghy, given the state of the water! And YES! you were planing alright! The boat is clearly lifted out and riding "on top" of the water, and not sailing by displacing the water to the sides. Planing is measurably faster than displacement sailing. I note the comments about downhauls etc. A good strong downhaul is very important for a balanced lug sail, but more for keeping good sail shape when reaching or sailing upwind. I wouldn't try and rely on a downhaul to control the boom when going with the wind: rather consider fitting a "preventer" rope leading from the boom down to the leeward gunwale (rig up some sort of cleat/adjuster system). The preventer stops the boom from rising too much (like a kicker or vang would on a conventional rig), and also limits the travel of the boom should the boat try and gybe by mistake..
Thx Chris for watching and reading. Downhaul's been working better especially if I slide it aft on the boom before the run.
And you tow it with your bike!!!! Speaks to me!
Glad to hear it, thx a lot.
Well done mate. A very interesting video.
Glad you enjoyed it!
Great video! As I'm sure you know by now, that's a fairly normal summer day in the Slot (the area between Angel and Treasure Islands in line with the Golden Gate. That boat was actually drier than I would have expected in that high, short-period chop. You get wet in much bigger, heavier boats than that in that area. I would personally prefer something decked, like a Welsford Navigator or Pathfinder, but your boat did well.
I'm new to sailing myself so can't add much wisdom but I have sailed aboard Bark Endeavour, Australias replica of Cooks Endeavour. In 5 metre seas which is relative to boat size, we all took turns on the helm and even a ship that big will slide sideways down waves. It required constant course correction so I don't think there's anything you can do about that aspect other than correct as required. Also general wisdom is that you never sail dead downwind. As for the boat needing port helm to go straight, put a try square on the table, one side is the boat the other is the sail, now push the middle of the sail in the direction of the wind and look which way the boat goes, that's why you needed port helm downwind
Thanks Steve for your tips! Synthesizing the comments so far, I would say the big takeaway is to not sail purely downwind :)
Awesome video! I like wild weather sailing videos.
Thanks! I'll try to keep them coming :)
17:50 Downwind tacking is a good idea in heavy conditions - you can always spill main and it's much more speed and fun anyway.
The boat rounds up possibly due too much plate so try less although it will roll more suddenly. There's a fine trade-off point.
Normally I use no centerboard these days and tack down wind. Much better:) thx for your suggestions.
I will say Great work, both the boat build and the sailing. Yes, my opinion SF Bay certainly has more wind chop than other areas/ bays folks sale. This is from experience of living just inland from Richmond and enjoying the strong Pacific winds
Thanks for the props!
Great video! Two thoughts for skill-building: learn to heave-to- this is great for reefing, or taking a break, eating lunch, etc. It's like a magical parking brake on traditional boats. Second, I just discovered single-oar rowing- I sail a very similar boat, and sometimes I just need to row briefly to maneuver when I've lost wind. I found you can set up a single oar (I'm right-handed, so my port oar), and steer with my left hand (the rudder will be counteracting the turning force from the oar). It's not efficient, but it's easier than setting up both oars and oarlocks.
Thx Severn for your feedback. I do experiment with heaving to. It's been fun but not entirely reliable. How far out do you let the main sail go when heaving to with a balanced lug sail? I have been trying to let it out slightly more than where it would be when sailing upwind.
@@fossilfool heaving to a cat rig lug sail is a tricky operation. I’ve been working on this skill a couple of years with only moderate success. Sail a Phoenix lll.
Love to see this rowing with one oar operation 😀. Would definitely be a handy skill
I couldn’t tell if you have a hiking strap installed but it helps immensely to put your feet under when hiking out
On plane the boat feels like it’s suddenly sliding on ice, skimming over the water instead of plowing.
Thx for watching! I did put in a hiking strap more recently. I'm still trying to understand the subleties of planing ;)
That’s a hell of a boat, (pretty light) and some good sailing. The lug seems forgiving is big wind. I would think in such a light craft you can appreciate that. Texas
Texas what? Thanks for watching. Hell yeah I love the forgiving rig. We shouldn't have had our centerboard down and we shouldn't have show this much sail and we basically came out unscathed :)
Great video, love the narration style/ commentary. I'm building an 18' Lilou2 open sailboat, a lug yawl. Looking forward to getting back on the water. Happy sailing!
Thanks for watching! Good luck with your build. Will you be posting about your project? 18' is a good size for an open boat!
@@fossilfool you can check out my progress at Jimmyboy163! Thanks
I also subbed to your channel
watching this give me confidence to go sailing, again. what is the main sheet set up ?
Not sure I understand your question but check out the 'Balanced Lug' rig. The rig is also used on the Goat Island Skiff.
brilliant video!
Hi Fossil, That was a great sleigh ride you made a really beautiful boat! Regarding your question, i have never sailed a balanced lug rig but it seems to work really well. On rigs like that the center of effort of the sail plan is way out to leeward. this makes the boat want to round up. you can balance it out by raising the centerboard, like halfway or more or by heeling the boat a bit to windward although in that wind it might be tough. You could also take a look at your helming technique when the wind is heavy like that you might want to be a bit more aggressive on the rudder to keep that boat tracking straight. Try keeping your body in a good position for sailing and adjusting your crew position, as someone already mentioned he was a bit too far forward which will make the boat difficult to control.
Great vid. I found that a fish landing net is perfect for picking up trash in the water.
Good tip, thx for watching!
Cool! My take on the extra water over the bow (other than the obvious roughish conditions) is that it seems like the mast forward design, plus the position of both of you, and position of the seat/thwart, is causing your bow to plow a bit more than it should. You might consider moving your positions a bit aft and/or adding a bit of ballast aft? Could be the camera lens...but just a thought.
Thx John, I'm not seeing water over the bow tho. You're not the first to suggest moving aft. I'll have to try it.
@@fossilfool oh thought you were referring to that in the video....by "over the bow" I guess I meant more spray over the forward part of the gunnels than might be expected:)
Great video, keen to know more about the bike and custom trailer setup?, as this is something that would be good for my setup here in New Zealand.
Great to hear from you. Also check out First Mod Sea Trials: ruclips.net/video/J5dOyEOeY6g/видео.html Also check out any of the vids on my channel with "bike sailing" in the title. What kind of boat do you have and what questions do you have? I have been getting comments from others and may release another vid soon to answer peoples' questions, so plz subscribe. Thx.
Very nice sailing 4:34 vessel. What is the design? Looks like skin on frame? The reefing suggestions are spot on. Would just add (since wind seems to almost always p-u later in day) to Reef first -ahead of conditions. It’s far easier to “shake a reef” then put one in under adverse conditions. You might be going slower at first, but slow and steady is safe and what sailing is about. Hope to visit & sailSF Bay soon (retirement!).
Thxa lot. It’s a Ross Lillistone “First Mate” scaled up. Looks like skin on frame but they’re G10 panels, semi rigid and as strong as 1/4” plywood. Give a shout if you’re in the Bay.
hi! nice video! i think downwind probably its better to put the weight back.
Will keep your tip in mind next time I'm out in a fresh breeze downwind! Thx for watching:)
Very nice and bold sailing, it was fun to watch. Few tips from a fellow dinghy sailor here: first, you didn't change the captain, you changed the skipper. Captain is the one taking the whole responsibility, skipper is the one holding the tiller.
And second, when you go downwind on the right tack, the boat tends to turn right and you have to put a lot of force on the tiller to keep her running straight. That's because of the relative positions of the center of effort (CE, the center of the area of the sails) and the center of lateral resistance (CLR, the center of the underbody). When sailing downwind, the CLR is more or less at the center of the boat, while the CE in your case is far to port. You can think of it as if the wind pushes the boat in the center of the sail on the port side, while the water pushes the boat back at her center: these opposite motions together turn the boat to starboard.
Good analysis and thx for watching! I'll try to keep captaining the bike sailing mission safely and boldly. Paul
Long live bike sailing!
Thx Caleb, look forward to doing a beach landing with you :)
Hello, I realixe that is 202 and you might have made mods to the boat but I would suggest adding A scupper at the bottom of the hull and all ythat water would be sucked-out on it own, no bailing required!
Thx Alain, and yes I have installed twin Ronstan / Anderson auto bailers. My experience with the large bailers has been good but when I tried the mini bailers, they didn't work. The force of the water popped them up. I reported the issue to Ronstan.
Amazing video - fantastic. Felt as if I was in the boat, whilst watching it and using my water rower (rowing machine) for exercise - took me away from a dark Covid winter. Also really liked the bit where you tow the boat with bicycle.
You ask for tips?
In summary (some also suggested already) from the perspective of a dinghy cruiser: safety 1. Reef early unless you have a support boat - view yourself as a yacht when making voyages and that is what a yacht would do. 2. Do a capsize drill, also flooding the boat, if you haven't already, to check the ability to bail the boat out - my impression is that your level of buoyancy might not be enough to stop the water coming back in as you bail out at sea, and then you could be in trouble - sorry it this is ok, but just going on visual impressions. 4. Is there a lanyard for the bailer - again apologies if there is, but I could not see it. 3. For dinghy cruising, do you have a portable radio in case you get in difficulty? Relying on a phone is risky and a radio will alert anyone in your vicinity, not just who you call - sorry again if you know this/ have a radio.
Regarding downwind: 1. A vang would keep the sail in shape and stop the boom riding up, which is what was happening going downwind. 2. Some weather helm is normal (i.e. having to counteract turning into the wind), but this would be more manageable by decreasing sail area and sitting back further. Essentially you were broaching in a controlled manner due to being overpowered. Some of this can be avoided by anticipating the 'broach' and steering away slightly just before being 'luffed up' by the sea.
One of the best videos of this type I have seen and make me want to travel to SF with my PicoMicroYacht, although probably a dream.
picomicroyacht.blogspot.com/2020/
Thx Robin, I'll try to get some more footage for your workouts ;) I have done a capsize test and you're right, the boat sits low when it's full of water. I am concerned about waves coming in as a bail. The boat's designer suggests bailing from outside. I tried that in flat water and it was very tiring. I think it would be scary in the conditions when I'm likely to capsize. I have an idea to make an emergency flotation based on CO2 cannisters. I would buy fat tire innertubes for bikes and have cannisters ready to inflate. From outside the boat I could pull the pin and watch my craft lift 1-2", which might be enough to do the rest from inside more safely in a chop. I also would like to do a capsize test on a choppy day. I do have a radio and I have my bucket on a cord. I appreciate your tips, have learned a lot from folks here!
Beaut sailing . Put a self bailer in my Doug Hylan Oonah . All the race dinghy had them when a kid . First sail coming up . Thanks mate cheers
I put twin autobailers in this boat after posting. You have to be going pretty fast for them to work but of course that's when lots of water is coming aboard. Thx for watching!
You're clearly planing on the downwind leg, that is to say your boat is riding up over the water as opposed to plowing thru it. Downwind sailing is most challenging in a small boat. Once it becomes too windy, I avoid downwind legs and instead broad reach, then do a 'chicken tack' and then a broad reach back the other way. A deathroll is when the boat capsizes on a downwind leg when the boom goes up in the air. Lots of pressure on the tiller tells you that you are in an unhappy configuration and pressure on the sail is trying to turn your boat that you are trying to counter with the rudder.
Thankfully pressure on the tiller went away when I started raising the centerboard for broad reach and running.
5:06 Just drop your anchor from the stern before you get landing))
Good luck!!) Very good video!!)
Don't have those reflexes yet. Thx for watching :)
@fossilfooom You mentioned you need to learn to reef. I sail a balanced lug with the boom and yard to the port side of the mast as you do. Take a length of (about) 5 mm cord. Tie a bowline around the boom with a very small amount of slack. Pass the line up the starboard side of the sail, through the cringle, and down to an eye at the end of the boom. Then it runs along to the boom (passing through the slack of the bowline) to a suitably positioned cleat. When I want to reef, I turn head to wind, slacken the halyard until the boom kisses the foredeck, then I pull on the tack reefing line to lift the boom back up to its original height, then cleat it off. Then I pull on the clew reefing line to raise the aft end of the boom and cleat off. Then adjust the halyard, downhaul and clew outhaul as necessary. (ALWAYS reef the tack first, then the clew.) By coincidence on my boat, the distance between the reef and the foot is almost identical to the distance between the boom and the foredeck, so I can use this as a guide to how far to lower the sail before pulling on the reefing line. For a deeper reef, I'd lower the sail all the way and do the whole job manually. You can manage without using the intermediate ties to bundle the sail, but it's untidy and if you do capsize, the sail may form a bag and fill with water. Practise in light conditions first. The time to reef is when you first think of it. It's far easier to shake out a reef that you don't need than to reef when conditions are getting scary. As for sailing down wind, if your boat allows you to reposition the boom: slacken the downhaul a bit and also whatever arrangement controls the position of the boom relative to the mast. The idea is to get the sail a bit further across the mast to balance it better. Use little or no centreboard, and sit well aft. If you sit forwards, the stern will raise, the rudder will lose grip and you will broach. NEVER let the clew end of the boom go forward of the mast.
Good steps from a fellow balanced lug sailor. Thx Mike. Ross Lillistone has a video showing the steps. Just got to make it happen now. No excuse that I didn't know how ;)
Wave twisted you around, heh. Good show.
Thanks, glad you enjoyed! Been getting better since I learned to reef and lift centerboard downwind.
@@fossilfool Like tacking upwind, those big swells will spin you broadside if they can. Looking like a lot of fun!
I just have to say, this is one of the videos that inspired me to get my own sailboat. I live in northern Colorado, and the sailing opportunities are sort of limited, but I was inspired to take advantage of what there is. This is a solid red state area, and think that you and I wouldn’t see eye to eye on many political and cultural issues, but I’m thankful that I can learn from you and share your enthusiasm for sailing!
Glad to hear from you and good to connect on sailing.
Hey Paul, Thanks for the nice video. You might want to have a look at the video’s of Steve cockerill on dinghy sailing.
I checked out his talk. Seems like overall he's saying to use the rudder less and use your balance and the boat's inherent properties more actively. This is consistent with what I've been hearing on the Goat Island Skiff group on facebook. Thx for sharing.
@@fossilfool My pleasure!
This is amazing. Excellent footage and skill. Wondering what oars you have. I’m having trouble finding long oars for a small boat.
Thanks a lot. I made my own oars out of carbon fiber. Please let me know if you want tips for working in carbon sleeving.
I also sail a Balanced lug and have had it out in 30+ winds on the Texas 200. Look at Michael Storer's website for great insight on balanced lug sailing. I have found that when the weather helm gets to be too great, using a bleater to allow the foot of the sail to move forward allows the tiller to be more balanced. I use the bleater and the down haul to help control the weather helm in the downwind runs.
Thanks for your tips Pat. I have done some reading on Michael Storer's website. I know what the bleater is but the way I've implemented it, it's just a strap holding the boom to the mast so that it doesn't fly away from the mast on that tack. It sounds like you're saying that having the ability for the entire sail to move forward or aft is important for downwind safety. I guess this is why Goat Island Skiff sailors like to tie the bleater to the foreward end of the boom. I'll have to give it a try.
@@fossilfool I have mine running from the lower part of the mast to a small block near the forward end of the boom and back through a cam cleat on the low opposite side of the mast. As the boom rotates port to starboard the block allows the bleater line to self adjust, while adding a downward and back pull
Wow that would be the sail of a lifetime for me around 13:00. That would be dangerous to fall in or knock down.
It was exciting for sure! But probably we weren't planing up wind... So far no one overboard!
Your boat acts like a weathervain on downwind sailing. It wants to swing the light end of the boat downwind.
Try shifting the weight further back.
Furthermore it seems like the waterspeed is faster than the boats top speed and that will also swing the boat around because the water is pushing against the rudder.
Good insight. Yes, the waves are passing us. That's part of the pressure on the tiller.
Thanks for a good video. It seems that SF bay has a lot of choppy waves compared to other coastal areas and this has a stalling effect of a light boat. The downhaul needs to be tensioned strongly in a balanced lug. And check out Venturi Dinghy Self Bailer gadget.
Thx for watching. I've installed 2 Anderson bailers and they're good but not great. Speed has to be pretty high. They seem to work well downwind and mediocre upwind.
@@fossilfool I have also been thinking you may benefit from having more of balance in the tension between between halyard and the downhaul. I would start with Bolger's "103 Sailiung Rigs Straight Talk" book which is probably available via a library . He encourages the downhaul position to movable on the boom for reefing. Engineer and boat designer Jim Michalak used to have good reference material online describing the engineering considerations of low tech rigs. I guess Duckduckgo could help discover this information on economical sailing. Michael Storer is another very experienced hand with lug rig settings.
@@Srulio Good tips. I do have my downhaul on a loop and can slide depending on reef level. These days I almost always reef!
Wow that was exhilarating just to watch :)
Thanks so much!
Geez mate!!!
Talk about angels looking after fools and babes
I've had a lifetime sailing dinghies in those conditions and you were doing just about everything wrong
But luckily that wrong downhaul position and tension allowed the head of the sail to totally de-power - otherwise the propeller affect up there would have thrown you over to windwood capsized.
With a reefed sail, taught downhaul
I know. I also think that this sail is on the small size for the hull and so it's a bit reefed even when it's not reefed. That helped. 105 sq ft of sail for a 17' boat. Do you agree? Thx for watching!
You were planing...its when you break your wake...and it is noticable.
The tiller pull is called weather help...you need to make a Sunfish racing vang...easy to tie up
JB Thanks for the tip on the Sunfish vang.
Off the wind try raising the dagger board most of the way up to reduce weather helm, and improve control.
Raising the centerboard helps a lot. As a beginner I was scared to do so thinking I'd have no control with out the centerboard, but once I got past that, I raise and lower the board a lot.
I loved this video. You guys did very well, i think. Looks like a fine boat. Regarding the downwind steering difficulty. I know it is common. I've experienced the same thing on a 38 foot keel boat with a spinnaker up. think it has to do with sail trim as Ross said. I hope someone more knowledgeable will explain why this happens. a moment of carelessness and over you go to windward! quick. Its happened to me in a dinghy, and at 71 years old, i'm still wondering what happened. Very Fun Video!
Thx for watching. With a smaller sail and the centerboard up things have gotten a lot better in similar conditions. I got the idea to go out to the same spot on a big day with someone experienced from the Cal Sailing Club and practice.
Excuse me, I haven't understood what boat she is (what plan?)... Have you tried to upright your boat after a capsizing? I don't see any lateral buyoancy and I am wondering if the boat wouldn't be full of water after the uprighting and if it would not be hard to sail again quickly. Anyway, a beautiful boat and some bold sailings. Congratulations!
Ah, I have found the first answer: a modified First Mate!
@@onclebrfbrf Thx for your interest. It's true about the lateral buoyancy. When I have done a capsize test (in flat water) what I found is that the boat is very easy to right but that it scoops up a lot of water. My concern is that if I capsize in San Francisco Bay it will most likely be during choppy windy conditions. When I right this boat, it will be sitting so low, that a wave can easily undo all the bailing or recapsize me. I have thought of inventing a CO2 based flotation system that I can trigger from outside the boat after righting the boat but before climbing back in. CO2 cannisters are popular in the bicycling world. They are small and and replaceable. I have thought that if I can essentially put large durable bicycle innertubes inside of some sort of long net under the side decks in the midships, then when I hit the CO2 it will lift the boat enough to make it more stable for climbing in, and bailing.
@@fossilfool There are inflatable lateral buyoancies but I don't know if it would fit in your boat.
@@onclebrfbrf I have looked into those but my search didn't turn up much. Do you know any of the product or brand names? Because my hull has that sweet translucency I don't want to block it with bulky inflated pillows or dock fenders. I was imagining something that is only ever inflated in an emergency. / Paul
@@fossilfool I am French and I don't Know the products made in USA. I have bought English lateral buyoancies for my sailing canoe long time ago...
Dude, super cool!
Can you recover from a capsize and sail out of it? If not, who is coming to rescue you? I notice you do not have transom scuppers nor self bailers. You have considerable weather helm on your return trip because the main is being overpowered. Reducing the sail area by reefing will help. You will improve control without sacrificing speed. I am not familiar with your rig but I do not see any reefing points in the main. Be careful out there!
Thx for your concern Rob. I just installed autobailers, which is why we weren't doing much bailing in the Angel Island portion of the vid. I don't have enough practice recovering from a capsize in flat water or in the waves. It does concern me as well. The rig is a Really Simple Sails balanced lug and has 3 reef lines.
Would also help on the downward leg if he had a vang. It would prevent the uncontrolled lift of the boom.
Rob you might enjoy the capsize test video: ruclips.net/video/t2sVhfAM-_Q/видео.html
@@conradwhite99 have a look on the rigging guide of the goat island skiff. There is a good and simple explanation how they handle the problem with a simple preventer which stops moving the boom moves forward whilest the downhaul is placed several centimeters aft of the mast (15 to 20cm depends on rig) to act as a vang too. So it will close the leech of the sail and reduces twist. Specially to make the rigg more controlable under high wind conditions on reaching courses.
@@AxelWeissenberger Thanks Axel .. and in those winds CRAZY tension on the downhaul - because of its offset from the front of the boom it has a vanging effect.
That's about a 'soft' plane. If you're going to sail on San Francisco Bay, you might consider installing an Elvstrom Bailer. The tiller position indicates you've got weather helm. That's the usual condition with a cat rig. With a well balanced rig you'd have the tiller centered.
Thx Denis, and a quick follow up. When you say we are on a soft plane are you talking about the upwind part of the video (about 12 minutes) where I ask the question or the downwind part where we are surfing waves?
Have you thought about putting toe straps in the bottom of your boat? It would mean you can sit up on the sides and hike out better. Means you would be able to keep the hull flatter in the water making it easier to maintain your course. The more the boat heals over the more it will try to turn and the more you will fight against the rudder.
Maybe? My Banshee has hiking straps and I like them but I don't want to clutter the translucent G10 floor of the First Mod too much. I recently put grippy gritty powder in my varnish coat in order to reduce slips. It feels only mildly likely to improve things. Thanks for watching!
Planing is when your hull is above the water. You can hear a particular vibration on the bottom of the hull.
Thx for your explanation. I think I've only planed in short bursts on this boat...
@@fossilfool yea planing is usually in short bursts. I think maybe I've had 2-3 minutes bursts the longests -- gravity usually prevails when you drop speed 🤪. I have a video somewhere on my laptop on a keelboat Wylie Wabbit 24 from designer Thomas Wylie (from the bay area as well - I'm from San Rafael). I was going downwind precisely near the alameda and point Richmond when the hull lifted above the wake and this crazy high-pitched vacumn cleaner sound came out of nowere. "Bvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv!!" The entire boat vibrated- pretty cool stuff.
I sail al balanced lug on a CLC passage-maker dinghy and find that when going downwind I let the boom ride forward along the mast so not so much sail area is aft of the mast trying to push thee stern around. Also of course it seems to me with the wind you have. you should probably have reef tied in. I find that downwind gusts provide a lot of adrenalin and have snapped two masts on that heading. Reef in early. I continue to make stronger ,masts to deal with the gusts (can't look both directions at once).
Great comment, thx Gerry. Awesome to hear from people who sail the same rig. Biggest change I've made since posting this vid is reefing according to the conditions, and also sailing with the centerboard up downwind. Amazing that you've snapped multiple masts.
@@fossilfool I live on the west coast of Canada. My first mast was a stick from the forest and seemed perfect for a while, but I was forced to gybe due to wind and strong current conditions and when it came around my partner didn't let the sheet out fully so it could swing tack to windward enough...full sail up !...then everything down - I guess that is one way to reef!
Once I was out camping/sailing for 6 weeks up the coast and had full sail up in extremely variable winds - nearly zero to gust coming from anywhere at15 knots. Since I had all my gear/food etc for 6 weeks I was pretty heavy and the gust caught me from behind and I couldn't accelerate fast enough for the conditions...the top of the mast accelerated faster (and farther) than I did!
The other time I just wasn't paying attention enough and although sailing down wind, the wind was dying and I failed to notice a squall coming up behind me. I had cleated the sheet to do something else when it hit and couldn't release it fast enough. Also since I was only a few hundred metres from my destination I became a little lax I guess. That gust was there just to wake me up! I think I have learned my lessons.... Pay attention, reef early.
with the downward sailing, it is just the way it rolls lol. I have a little el toro sailboat and it just is that way. some things will slightly change it but at the end of the day.
Yeah, being downwind it's like that on even my bigger boat. Thx for watching :)
i subscribed only for your magical beat box performance! im joking, nice sailing chanel!
Hey, is this your own design? Looks great. I like your stern traveler, excellent positioning. I notice you have some water sloshing around; my Harpoon has auto-bailers. Are you familiar with how they work? (Water passing under the boat creates suction that pulls the water from inside the boat. Then they naturally don't allow water back in.) I wonder if you could buy and fit auto-bailers into your own boat. Might be useful to you. (Sorry if I'm speaking out of turn, I haven't seen or read anything on your design.)
Thx Dave, It's a Ross Lillistone First Mate, scaled up and modified for bike trailing. Have since installed good auto bailers and I'm thankful to have them.
Pretty great!
Nice video
Maybe a reef would have helped balance your sail for rudder force ratio. Most of your sale was on the left, pushing you to the right and overpowering your rudder. Other rigs might use the second sail forward of the main to balance the situation by flying on the opposite side. Yeah, maybe reef a bit.
Thanks for the tips! Thx for watching. In similar conditions I now always put in a reef.
I think your downwind rudder problem is because the kick up blade is trailing at an angle back from vertical. This rake will load the tiller with a heavy pull but not steer the boat. When the rudder is vertical the tiller load goes away or at least is very mild and the steering is effective up until when the rudder blade stalls. Then the tiller goes out to large angles and the boat does not steer your course , but there is no heavy pull. I speak from much experience with four types of boats that had kickup rudders. You need a down haul on the rudder and you need to set it really firm after reaching deep water. You will need to release the down haul to beach !
Thx mate. I did develop a rudder downhaul system since this was shot, and it has helped, along with learning to reef and raising the centerboard.
This is great! I used to rent boats to sail on the SF bay. Now I have a boat and live nowhere near there. It sounds like you made your boat and spars. Did you have plans to make the mast and boom?
For the mast and boom I developed my own process using carbon fiber sleeving. I practiced on the oars first to figure out how to make them hollow without a mandrill. Then the boom. By the time I made the mast I had the technique down. Feel free to reach out if you want tips.
Hoping to see some good surfs!!
Yeah, the last 5 minutes is downwind down wave surfing with some unexpected twists.
Well done Fossilfool. I rekon you are living the meaning of life. Not so long ago I finished building a phoenix 111and have been out a few times. Have already been caught in a strong wind change with no reef set up. Working on my reef set up at the moment. What method do you use to keep the yard close to the mast when you reef ?
Thanks a lot John. I have yet to reef on open water. I reef at the dock in Emeryville and then usually just stick with my decision. Once I got spooked and dove for a mooring ball at Treasure Island, then reefed there. That's great you built a Pheonix III !
Yes, I really enjoyed the boat building experience. My first build was a chesapeake 16 foot kayak. From what I have read there are some serial boat builders out there and sometimes I wonder if I could do one more. What exactly is your hull made of and why did you use choose that material ?
@@johnbrame3023 The translucent sections are made of 1/16" G10 sheet. I had the sheets in my shop from another project (a translucent illuminated speaker build). 1/16" G10 is tougher than plywood and as strong (when measured in tensile strength) as 1/4" marine plywood. 1/4" ply was what I was supposed to use if I had followed the plans. G10 is inherently rot proof. So I went for the G10 and made efforts to compensate for its one drawback: its flexibility.
@@fossilfool Would you use some sort of propulsion device (eg electric motor) or just stick to sail and oars ?
@@johnbrame3023 Would be curious to try a motor or pedal power drive system at this time of year.
Regarding planning, a boat moving through water creates a bow wave. The maximum speed of a boat driving a bow wave is determined by its length. If your boat can climb over the bow wave, then speed is unlimited.
When you are planing on a sailboat the size of the First Mod, will it start to feel more stable?
@@fossilfool sorry, can't say. I'd be guessing.
This looks like a wonderful cruising dinghy. What's it called?
It's a scaled up Ross Lillistone First Mate. I called mine the "First Mod" because of all the mods for bike towing.
Interesting. I'm learning a standing lug on a Peapod. The last outing had water over the rails and me rowing back to dock. Now I have reef points, down haul and an out haul set up. Sadly, Covid and fires have put a damper on trying it out.
I'd be very interested in learning why you had a hard time keeping on course. Do you think it's because of the sail twist Ross mentioned?
Cheers.
Thanks for watching! It's because my sail was too big and my centerboard was down. These days I always raise the cboard on a run. It helps you slide around and not get tripped on waves.
@@fossilfool oh, good to know! Thanks
What are your oars? The split design is nice and they look good and long.
Thanks! They’re my own design. They’re 9.5’ long which feels right for this boat with its 68” beam. As with many things I’ve designed that split apart or serve multi functions, I tend to settle on the most convenient mode, so stow them at full length these days. I’m happy with the weight, under 3 pounds each.
It has been mentioned, but, downwind keep the weight aft to keep the tiller deep. Practice steering by weight movement of the crew - move right to go left and vice versa. The boom rising is a good auto-trim by depowering. Upwind weight forward.
Thanks for sharing. Feedback from experienced sailors has helped me grow in my confidence in similar conditions.
If you build the dinghy with more lateral resistance under the mast rather than the boom the boat will handle better. The heeling over is easier to control if the lateral resistance is under mast. You can ease the sails or turn up. A normal sailboat design is deeper in the bow. This deepest point is the stem and makes the boat seaworthy design stem to stern academic keeling.
Thx for your thoughts. Not planning to make another this size but I have been improving my sailing since posting.
Nice video! Useful commentary! Impressive to see you bike your boat and gear to the water! That downwind sailing looked scary to me too! I think the boom could do with some more stiffness but I would be interested to hear what the designer has to say. The downhaul would only control the leech of the sail wouldn't it? I don't see how beefing up the downhaul would straighten up the boom in heavy downwind weather. I have dropped Willy Weather and instead use Windy, they have an app also so check it out. Keep us posted.
On my last sail, the first I accepted a rescue, the harbor master who towed me in vouched for the NOA on the weather channel of my VHF radio as the most reliable predictor of big conditions. I think Windy is OK. I think the most reliable is to use a site where you can see where their weather stations are. Then check in with it on windy days, even when you're not sailing to get in tune with it. I like windfinder for that. Thanks for watching!
That's a sweet boat and a great rig. I've sailed lugs a lot, and really appreciate their simplicity. I find a lug rig is a great sailing instructor: more than other rigs, you can try things out: what happens if I shove the boom far to windward, or to lee, or if I snug or ease this or that? The wind will tell you, and you'll understand sails a bit more.
You seemed to struggle with the sheet. Could you rig it with less mechanical advantage, so the sail moves more when you haul in the sheet? It may be that increase in strain is worth getting more response from the sail.
As for planing: you're on a plane whenever you exceed your boat's hull speed (I don't know your boats LWL, but it's hull speed is somewhere around 6-7 mph). Since your hull does't look very flat, that may take a lot of wind. Controlling the boat doesn't change radically when planing.
Nice! I don't know how I'd increase the mechanical advantage on the main sheet. Fewer blocks? I was thinking of installing a recessed jam cleat in the deck near where I sit, in order to grab the sheet further up. Otherwise I'm doing things like you see in the vid where I can't advance the sheet without the sail changing a lot.
@@fossilfool You've got a jam cleat in your head. Hold the sheet in your teeth when you need an extra hand. With the mechanical advantage you have it won't rip your teeth out
@@stevep5819 I do that but feel ashamed, like the sailors on the internet will look down on me ;) or that I'm missing something. Thanks for suggesting it!
You need two downhauls on the boom. One to forward end pulling the boom back, and one to act as a wang. Raise keel 2/3 to prevent sideslipping. Move body art to prevent nose digging. Flatten sail with outhaul/downhauls. Lower sail to take inn a reef, rehoist. Use small seaanchor for rerigging and rest.
The main part of the sail is possibly not being properly counter balanced by the forward part in front of the mast. Maybe the sail needs to be adjusted slightly to give you a bit more leverage down to leeward?
Thx for watching. Nowadays if I have the presence of mind to do so I like to pull the attachment point for the downhaul backwards on the boom. This has the effect of increasing the amount of sail on the other side of the mast and keeping the sail flat downwind.
Rudder load / balance he needed weight back like him back corner and his crew sitting right next to him the boat would have lifted up and gone faster less load better balance etc. Do you have hiking straps? Thats a safety and need for SF sailing in a boat like that👍
Hey Trent, thx for watching. I haven't felt the need for hiking straps yet. Paul Hernes from Australia is shown hooking a tow in to the thwart on his vid, search Phoenix III, the sister design of my boat (Ross Lillistone First Mate). Yes, loud and clear about weight aft! I've tried it but to be honest I haven't sailed downwind in as much breeze as this since this thing was shot.
@@fossilfool The hiking strap let’s you position farther back in the boat and help keep you in it as it accelerates and/or bounces over the wakes. When the boat gets up on plane the ride is very different and straps become very obvious 👍
@@U20E27 Thx, what would you suggest for getting on plane when I'm on a reach? Do I need more sail area? From what I have read we were only planing in the downwind part of the video.
@@fossilfool Power and weight back. To power up your sail in that video you needed a boom vang to hold the boom down ie keep it from lifting up high and dumping the wind pressure out of the sail. However! More boomvang tension can put a large side load on the mast and is often the cause of mast failure so it’s a balance between not breaking your mast and powering up the sail.