Christ Did NOT Die For Every Person
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- Опубликовано: 16 сен 2024
- In the second half of verse 2 of our text, John says that Jesus is the propitiation, “not for our [sins] only, but also for those of the whole world.” This little phrase has sparked a lot of theological controversy. Those who oppose the Reformed (Calvinist) view of salvation say that this verse refutes the doctrine of “limited atonement” - that Christ died only for the elect. However, Calvinists rightly respond by pointing out that this verse cannot mean that Christ actually satisfied God’s wrath on behalf of every person, or else everyone would be saved. Scripture is clear that the wrath of God abides (remains) on those who do not obey Jesus (John 3:36). Thus they argue that the “whole world” refers to God’s elect from every tribe, tongue, and nation, not to every person who has ever lived.
"And He died for ALL, that those who live should no longer live for themselves..." 2Cor 15 "For God so loved the world that He gave His only Son, that whoever believes in Him shall have everlasting life" 3;16
What's the pointttt your trying to make my friend? 🤔
You obviously didn't listen to the sermon. Pastor Joel address those issues in the sermon.
1) If Christ died for all, why are there people in Hell?
2) What does the word "world" mean?
You quoted 2 Cor 5:15 which starts in the middle of a sentence. Try quoting both verse 14 and 15 and you will see that context is that Christ died for those who died in Him.
@@maxmustermann1206 bingo👌
@@maxmustermann1206
Okay, how about these verses then?
Titus 2:11 "For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for ALL people"
OR
John 12:32 "And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, I will draw ALL people to myself"
OR
Psalm 145:9 "The Lord is good to ALL and His mercy is over ALL that He has made"
OR
Romans 11:32 "For God has consigned ALL to disobediance, that He may have mercy on ALL"
I had to add another one as I just came across it.
Romans 5:18-19 "So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to ALL men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to ALL men...."
I can’t believe the many comments that say…”great sermon”…”I needed to hear this…” blah blah blah. I’m not sure how one can become so brainwashed by Calvinism??? It’s such a false teaching yet loved by many. Calvinism is a man made belief!!!
It's a cult mentality. Calvinisms god is a big a narcist as Islam's god.
@@johnsteele870 Amen Amen Amen…finally…someone else who says the same thing!!!
Calvinism makes sense. It can be hard to accept but it makes sense.
@@True253 Nope.
This needs to be broadcast over many platforms. Very thorough and truthful! Will listen many times. Full of great doctrine!
He was talking out of ignorance, he cannot prove a god, never mind a hell, which was a LATER integration in Christianity to enforce a FEAR FACTOR.
No…no it does not need to broadcasted.
@@Stryper1 That was funny.
Salvation is a gift. With your name on it. We are drawn to it by the Father, then by the working of the Holy Spirit, we accept the gift with a rejuvenated heart. Then, when we are in heaven, all the saved remove our crowns 👑 and place them at the feet of Jesus because we aren't worthy, apart from the work of Christ on the Cross, yet He made us worthy and we lay down our crowns because we took no part in our Salvation. HE DID IT ALL AND IT WAS FINISHED, leaving nothing for us to do, less, we might brag about our part in saving ourselves.
We we're slaves to sin but now we are slaves to Christ, bought with his blood.
We are not the agent in that transaction. Slaves don't get a choice. We are the commodity that was bought, set apart as an inheritance for Christ at the foundation of the world.
Beautiful sermon Joel.
But slaves can cry out and ask for help (salvation)...If I ask someone (who is offering) to throw me a lifeline while drowning, am I the agent of my salvation?
@@mccaski2 seriously? You can’t ask logical questions! I’ve learned that asking logical questions leads to character assassination so tread carefully! 😂
@@mccaski2 How powerful is your god? Can your god save people by his own power, or can he only do so much? - Which means a person, who is not all powerful, has to complete the rest of that salvation.
@@mccaski2 What can a dead man do?
"And you were dead in your offenses and sins, in which you previously walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. Among them we too all previously lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the rest." Eph. 2:1-3)
We were dead in our trespasses and sins until God that made us alive in Christ (Eph 2:4-5)
@@maxmustermann1206 yep, made us "ALIVE IN CHRIST." If we are in Christ, we are alive now, but how we get there is what we are debating here. I would say by believing/choosing to trust in Christ you are now in Christ, and therefore alive.
Great sermon, thank you Pastor Joel!
From videos I've seen of pastor Joel he's solid and this sermon was no exception. This was incredible
He's a calvinist cessationist post millenialist who thinks christians should take over the world before Jesus comes bac
Says the gullible.
I got it! It's a great message. Steve Lawson told what you said without yelling for an hour in the mic. I love this message!
The reason I’m a Calvinist is that I cannot understand why I believed and some people including some members of my family who I think are smarter than me don’t. We both received the same information, same exposure. The other reason is that if I had something to do with my salvation then I have the ability to lose it. judging myself honestly, I deserve hell still due to my sins. The only thing that gives me comfort is that it was accomplished by grace. Thank you God.
You believe because you have faith, not because God chose you to have faith. Remember, even the demons believe and tremble
@@gordon7641 why do I have faith then? Better reasoning skills ? I don’t think so. Atheist like Matt Dillahunty or Richard Dawkins always say that if God exists He should know what evidence to show them to make them have faith. I can pray that God would have mercy on these sinners but can’t imagine praying that God needs to figure out what evidence to give them to believe. That puts God on trial and them as judges. I know many verses that say God chose Israel. I don’t know of any that say that He chose them because their response, faith or behaviour was better then other nations.
@@mattcy1052because you responded positively to the message of salvation. You aren’t a puppet. If you are, go do whatever you want. You couldn’t do it unless God wanted you to right? Nonsense, we have a choice and a response
@mattcy1052 You believed because you were born from above, which with a new heart you were enabled to believe. Without the converting work of The Spirit, no man can have faith. Says so in the Scriptures. Jesus said to Nicodemas, unless you are born from above you cannot perceive the kingdom of God. How can a man believe in something he cannot perceive? It cannot happen.
You believed because your heart is softer, that's it. If you have an identical twin and was raised in the same environment, it will still be possible that one of you believe and one of you will not, it's independent of flesh. I've started reading the Bible and started going to church and became interested in Christ at age 6 despite my parents aren't church goers. I just kept going to a local Baptist church kids Sunday School, no explanation and yet I'm not a Calvinist. I know you're searching for explanation on why some people believe, some people don't but trust me Calvinism is not the answer. Calvinism is a product of limited human deduction, if Jesus died for everyone then why everyone isn't saved, if only those who accept are saved, then salvation is based on human decision, if salvation is based on human decision, then gift is not enough since it requires both Christ and human action, therefore I conclude that Jesus died only for few. See what happened there? They're insisting that faith is human action even though the Bible stated many times that it's not. They treat "accepting a gift" as human effort and a contribution, see how audacious that is? Imagine you're dying of starvation and someone gave you food, instead of saying "Thanks, you saved me" you'll say, "Well I survived thanks to both of our effort, yes you provided the food but it's my hand that reached for it, put it in my mouth, it's my teeth that breaks it down, and my stomach that digested it, without my contribution I surely wouldn't survive. It's a team effort." The reaction would be, what is wrong with you?. Imagine having a memory erasing machine. Now use it then read the whole Bible. You'll come up to a conclusion that we all have freewill, we all have choice, we are all sinners but Christ died for us and everyone has a choice to accept his gift of salvation. Now use that machine and reread the Bible again, you'll come up with same conclusion. Even if you reset your memory and read the Bible for a hundredth time, you'll come up with the same conclusion until a Calvinist comes to you, taps you on the shoulder and introduce you to the idea. Now you read your Bible as "oh, so the John 3:16 world doesn't really mean all it just means many people"
Some do go to hell however he did say that God was not willing that any should perish. It also says that whosoever believeth in him should not perish.
2 Pe 3:9's "not willing that any should perish" should be understood as "not willing that any of us the elect should perish". The declaration is very much 'in house'.
@@lawrence1318 yeah it's easy for people that didn't make the sacrifice to think they are special but that of course is pride and ego. Thankfully God loves everyone and died for everyone. John 3:16 the declaration is def in house if you believe the house is this world. Fur God so loved the world ( not the elect) that he gave his only begotten son that whosoever (that means anybody) Believeth in him should not perish but have everlasting life. It wasn't your body that was broken nor your blood that was shed so quit acting like you have a say. No your place "Christian". Luke 17 so then ye once he have done that which is Commanded of you say " we are unprofitable servants, we have dinner that which was our duty to do. And that duty is to love not think your special.
@@SkyHoops-vv2bg What I've said is correct. You need to read your New Testament.
The problem with “ Jesus didn’t die for everyone” would be the numerous verses that say other wise.
John 3:16
John 2:2
Heb 29
John 1:29
1st Timothy 2:4. 4:10
and the list goes on.
It’s simple Christ died for all but not all will believe. Unless you excuse all those verse away or come up with some round about way of refuting it, what is says is what it means. That is its context.
The question is whether or not Jesus actually removed God's wrath from everyone on the cross. If so, then no one will have to bear God's wrath in Hell, since Jesus already did.
Your equating "the world" with each individual person. If it equates with humanity as a collective, then saving a remnant of humanity is enough. i.e. God so loved the world that he saved a remnant of humanity
None of those verses present a problem for definite atonement. I would encourage you to take a look at the myriad of solid exegetical treatments of them that resolve the conflicts you feel they represent. On the other hand, the huge theological conundrums you create by trying to apply Christ's atoning work to every individual (past, present, and future), are not so easily resolved, as I think this video demonstrates in a powerful and seemingly air-tight way.
@@heartofalegend I think Paul summoned it up, “because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of ALL people especially of those who believe”
He hits the main point “ who is savior of ALL” which he is( John 3:16) Then lands on this” especially those who believe”.
Yes , those who believe are better off because they share in his salvation.
Then in 1 Timothy “ who gave as a ransom for ALL.
Heb 2:9 So that by the grace of God he might taste death for Everyone.
I can go on and on. The meaning is clear, isn’t it? But when it gets filtered through the lens of Augustinian Manichaeism it becomes not what it says. Calvinism has some problems.
@@OuterProduct351 it’s doesn’t say that they are saved it says God so loved the world he gave his only son that if you believe in him( something we do) you’ll have eternal life.
You say, God only died for the world of the elect. It doesn’t mean that or say that. Calvinism is one of the only “Faiths” that argues about the mechanics of salvation.
Seems odd.
Yes Christ did pay for all the sins of the world. Some reject his gift and thereby insist on paying for their own sins.
Romans 5:17-19
17 For if by the one man's offense death reigned through the one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.)
18 Therefore, as through one man's offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man's righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life.
19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man's obedience many will be made righteous
Bro, they're either paid for or not. Why is this so hard to understand? Who ever said "I choose, willfully to pay for my own sins?" No one, because if they don't believe they don't believe in God or judgment.
@@kimmykimko this isn't hard. Your sins are paid for if you accept the gift. Anyone can accept this gift. If you reject the gift, Jesus payment of your sins, then you'll have to pay for them on your own in eternal torment.
@@nickw3463how is God just for punishing his innocent Son and punishing the guilty individual?
Did Jesus fail to propitiate the Father's wrath?
@@keithm1689 it's applied to those who accept it. You choose either to accept the gift or to not accept it. Your sins aren't washed away prior to accepting the gift of salvation.
"so also by one Man's obedience MANY will be made righteous" (Romans 5:19)
But you claim that "Yes Christ did pay for all the sins of the world."
So he paid for all the sins of the world, but only MANY were made righteous? In your view, He paid for the sins of the world, yet the majority of the people will be in Hell (wide is the gate and narrow is the way that leads to destruction). So in your view, God's plan of salvation was a massive failure. God's power is limited and He can only do so much to save people. Would that be correct? Is that what you think?
Brother, I listen to you several times a week and pray for your ministry, but your sermon falls apart in the first three minutes. By your logic the father could not pour his wrath on the innocent son, this is the definition of iunjust. Secondly our creator gave his son to die for his image bearers. He values man highly, to devalue man is to devalue Christ sacrifice and God grace.
I know I am elect, I have been forgiven and Jesus and the Father both hold me until I take my last breath (John 6:39) because Christ has given me, by grace, spiritual affections for godliness and righteousness. I used to hate God.... no longer! The reprobate don’t have affections for God nor His kingdom. That’s how I know that I’m His.
1 Timothy 2:6: “Who gave himself a corresponding ransom for ALL-this is what is to be witnessed to in its own due time.” The Bible also tells us at Hebrews 2:9 “so that by God’s undeserved kindness he might taste death for EVERYONE.”
Would it be logical for God’s Son to have an unconcerned attitude, saying in effect: “I gave my lifeblood for everyone, but of what importance is this one person? Whether he loses his life or not makes no difference to me!” Never-Each individual will receive attention, with opportunity for life!
These guys work soo hard to talk basic truth out of the gospel of grace.
the problem here, is that Joel is appealing to God's justice as his primary trait. The way that God describes himself (in the OLD TESTEMENT no less) is:
Exodus 34: “The Lord, the Lord, a God MERCIFUL and GRACIOUS, slow to anger, and abounding in steadfast love and faithfulness, 7 keeping steadfast love for thousands,[a] forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, but who will by no means clear the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children and the children's children, to the third and the fourth generation.”
Gracious and Merciful come first, then Justice. Was it JUST for Jesus to sacrifice himself on the cross at all? Nope. So, worrying about whether or not God has punished 2x for the same sin, is not really the point. If God's justice were the main point/his main trait, he wouldn't have bothered to send Jesus at all. Our God is an abundant God, who goes above and beyond for those he loves (YES, the whole world)! Does that mean that justice isn't important and that their will not be any in hell (NO)?
Isaiah 55:1-2
“Come, everyone who thirsts, come to the waters; and he who has no money, come, buy and eat! Come, buy wine and milk without money and without price. Why do you spend your money for that which is not bread, and your labor for that which does not satisfy? Listen diligently to me, and eat what is good, and delight yourselves in rich food.”
2 Peter 3:8 Beloved, do not let this one thing escape your notice: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day.c 9The Lord is not slow in keeping His promise as some understand slowness, but is patient with you, not wanting ANYONE to perish but EVERYONE to come to repentance.
Luke 13:31-35 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those sent to her, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were unwilling! 38Look, your house is left to you desolate.h 39For I tell you that you will not see Me again until you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord.’i”
Is Jesus being disingenuous with the Jews and the Pharisees, or does he really want to gather them to himself? You have to take the whole counsel of scripture and look at God's and Jesus' character as a whole. Not cherry pick standard Calvinist talking point verses and slogans.
2Peter 2:1 But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even DENYING THE SOVEREIGN LORD WHO BOUGHT THEM --bringing swift destruction on themselves.
So Jesus bought them, but they will still be destroyed? Sounds like free will and consequences of rejecting Christ to me.
All God's traits are PERFECT.
@@kimmykimko Agreed. But how does he describe himself? And what does he demonstrate by sacrificing Himself? is that really a 1 to 1 trade?
I agree! Let God be true and every man a liar
Thank you Pastor, I have not heard this before. I thought once in Hell the person was separated from God. But this teaching was very helpful.
I think it was RC Sproul who described hell as the condemned being there, under the gaze of God, but without the shield of even common grace. So all your sins are exposed, you are naked before Him, without any excuse. Martin Luther said that a condemned man would give all that he had and even the world besides if he could have his sins lessened by just 1.
There is a guy named Cliffe from NYC who would call you intellectually dishonest for thinking that God is sovereign. Since he has a show called "Give me an Answer" or something like that, I asked him why God created people that He knew would spend an eternity in hell. I have yet to receive an answer. I posed this same question to Dr Leighton Flowers and have yet to receive an answer. It seems those who seek to glorify man by ascribing us with free-will aren't free to answer that question.
Let me ask you a question, why did He create angels he knew were going to turn on Him?
@@Mrguy-ds9lr The answer to that is the same answer to the question I posed. God desires to show His wrath along with His mercy so that we would come to a greater knowledge of Him. God is Soveriegn and He can do with us whatever He wishes. Moreover, we all actually deserve to be thrown into hell, but for His grace we ALL would be thrown into hell.
@@JesusistheonetrueGod what scriptures would support God's desire to show His wrath, to show His mercy, so we have a better understanding of Him?
@@JesusistheonetrueGod and why do we deserve to be thrown in hell, if we have no choice to be born , no choice to choose? Weren't we destined to sin? If that's the case how is it we deserve hell?
I no, there are those who seek to glorify man, no doubt, but is saying God gave us free will, always glorifying man if the power is God's, who gave us the choice? And what do you think of the ideah that love demands a choice, love that is forced is not love but rape?
It's crazy to me how many Christians hate this message but still acknowledge that some people go to Hell.
It's crazy to me how you think this comment makes any sense. It's crazy to me how some people are so willing to defame God's character.
@@joshcarzdo people go to hell?
@@thomasthellamas9886 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him; (Hebrews 2:3, KJV) Notice the emphasis 'IF WE NEGLECT'. It's not 'you didn't make it on God's magic lottery'.
God allows people to go where they want to go.
There will be zero souls in hell that do not want to be there.
Look at the story of the rich man and Lazarus the rich man doesn’t ask to be delivered from hell, he just wants it to be a little more comfortable…
I can see, based on your post here, you don’t seem to be well-read enough to be commenting on this subject. I recommend reading the Bible more! Mmm k?
@@keith3362 it was a yes or no question
Here is absolute proof that God does NOT predestine EVERYTHING. In Jeremiah 7 God says, "People built places to sacrifice their children (in fire) to foreign gods, and He (God) says, "I did NOT COMMAND this, nor did it enter my mind." So, who do we believe, Jeff Durbin, RC Sproul, James White, John Piper or God Almighty and His Holy Word, the Bible? So, while God does predestine some things, this verse clearly says NOT everything. It's like a university predestining a football team (they WILL have a team next season) but giving free will to players themselves to decide whether or not to come out for that team. God, in His Sovereignty, has the POWER to give mankind a certain degree of free will to choose to follow or reject Him and His Christ. This free will, given to man by God, started in the garden when God said to Adam and Eve, "You can eat from any tree in the garden except the tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil." God did NOT say, "You MUST eat from all of the trees except the tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil," rather He gave them a choice to eat from whatever trees they chose, except that one specific tree. And by the way, they CHOSE to disobey and eat from the very tree God said not to. By the way, Jesus said, "No one can come to Me unless the Father draws him." Jesus did NOT say, "...unless the Father makes me or forces me..."
“Even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction." (2 Peter 2:1) So he didn't die to redeem the false teachers, those bring on themselves destruction? I am sorry, logical rhetoric is one thing; biblical rhetoric is quite another.
I'm curious if you ever read any of the explanations of the dilemma your raised. If you take this verse as proof that Jesus removed God's wrath from everyone who ever lived or whoever will, then why will there be people bearing God's wrath yet again, in Hell? Did Jesus remove it or didn't He? If you deny particular redemption, you've now created new dilemmas of your own. Here's another one. If God knew who would deny Him and therefore go to Hell, then why did He create them, knowing this would happen? And if He knew this in advance, why would He punish Jesus for the sins of those people? For what purpose? These are reasonable questions that folks like yourself need to deal with.
To know Him is to know His word. Possibly the most profound sermon Pastor Joel has ever given.
Joel Back At It Again‼️‼️‼️ Breaking down The Gospel rather you like it or not. Classic Sermon J Dub Classic Sermon.
More like …tearing apart the gospel…. Not breaking it down!!!
@@Stryper1 Explain your thoughts on it
@@Justyn918 It’s simple…Christ came and died for all sinners… that’s the gospel.
@@Stryper1 Romans 9 says different my Guy
@@Justyn918 John 3:16 says different my guy!!!
Great sermon. Found the last part on prayer particularly helpful
Nice to hear children in the background, a younger generation raising the next.
My analogy: 'Was Noah's ark constructed so as to accommodate all of humanity, or just big enough for eight righteous people and a bunch of animals?'
Yet Noah continued to warn people to prepare for a great flood God is sending, despite their mocking.
@@2GunRock As should we, but the ark would not have accomodated all of the earth's inhabitants. Do you see my point?
@solideomusical If Leighton were there, Noah would've had to add a guest bedroom for him, because he would've used his imaginary autonomous free will and made it on the Ark.
@@solideomusicalif more people repented God would have made a way. “The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not willing for any to perish, but for all to come to repentance. 2Peter 3:9
@@gordon7641 Have you ever considered that God perhaps knew all of that beforehand? See: 'Omniscience'
O yes, this is the part where people ignore what the apostle John actually says... to say the opposite. I believe there is the fallacy of equivication happening on the word propitiation. Propitiation doesn't mean salvation. It means righteous satisfaction. It is a Godward concept. There was sufficent in the death of Christ to meet the need of everyone in the world. Substitution is a different thought - if you think of it as 'the blood in the basin' at the passover. There was sufficient in the basin to meet the need of any but only the blood applied made any difference. Many believers who teach an unlimited atonement don't teach universalism. Do you notice how many verses speaking about the death of Christ that limited atonement advocates need to change to suit their system? i.e. John 1.29, John 3.16, 2 Cor 5.14-15, 2 Cor 5.18-21, Heb 2.9 etc etc. ... worth thinking about. Also there is the total misunderstanding that there was an 'infinite' payment by Christ. When you tot it up (as Joel does) and do mathmatical equations on it, there is the assumption that there was a 'finite' payment.
Fascinating message! I am new to your teachings but I am drawn to your reasoning. Thank you for this message.
Welcome.
Don't be drawn to his reasoning.... be drawn the the Scripture.
@@andreagerber9709 Yes, absolutely, but Pastor Joel gives light to the Scripture. I appreciate his messages from the Scriptures.
“Where the worm does not die and the fire is not quenched” is a direct quote from Isaiah 66:24 which reads: “And they shall go forth and look Upon the corpses of the men Who have transgressed against Me. For their worm does not die, And their fire is not quenched. They shall be an abhorrence to all flesh.”
This is about a _real_ and _physical_ place, the valley of Hinnom or Gehenna in Greek. Jesus is not one to twist the meaning of scripture so to assume he’s preaching the traditional doctrine of hell _i.e. eternal torment_ is to charge him with changing the meaning of scripture.
There is a lake of fire, originally in the Douay-Rheims Bible called “pool of fire” with sulfur (brimstone) which is used in metallurgy to refine gold and silver and remove all the impurities. There are several Old Testament passages talking about God’s crucible. We can safely deduce that the New Testament passages of this lake of fire and 2nd death is just God removing the impurities of the soul to restore all things showing that Jesus died to save all.
Peter rebuked those who taught there was no resurrection because they were teaching people to sin by teaching them that life did not go on forever. Why do you think teaching people that hell isn't forever is ok?
@@fatalheart7382 Why is it not ok? This may be more of a philosophical argument but we can find scripture to support it, that God is a merciful and loving God who even loves His enemies and every believer knows this is fully demonstrated in the life of His son Jesus the Christ. For God to allow any of His beloved creatures to suffer endlessly challenges the character of God I previously mentioned, the character we find throughout the entire Bible. I’m not saying God is willing to ignore sin and will not punish it according to His infinite wisdom, but that eternal suffering sounds more like something you’d expect from a wicked tyrant seeking revenge.
@@fatalheart7382 And keep in mind I’m not making light of hell by any means, we still don’t want anyone to go there.
@@NickSandt The point Peter makes is that bad company corrupts good character. He sights the demonic doctrine as: "Let us eat and drink for tomorrow we die."
When you take away the ideas of eternal death, just like eternal life, you remove the ultimate reasons to do good. To suffer once is easy. To suffer forever is permanence.
I would also suggest that, if you have issues with the real God's character, then you are not really following God; you are following your own morality. It is not God who needs man's acceptance, but man who needs God's.
For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony given at the proper time.
- 1 Timothy 2:5-6
You are taking the plain meaning of the Bible and shoehorning into a rational framework.
100% agree. I hate to see the character of my God defamed in this way.
Amazing how synergists still REFUSE to read the CONTEXT of 1 Tim. 2:
the "all" means 'all KINDS of men'; not 'every single individual human being without exception'.
Read the Context:
"for kings and all who are in high positions"...that's the "all men" Paul is referring to; these are KINDS of men.
Not "all men" are 'kings and men in authority'.
@@joshcarz And I can't stand to see synergists thinking that the Atoning Work of Christ didn't actually accomplish Salvation; but only potentially so.
@ryangallmeier6647 first off, I'm a monergist. All confessional Lutherans are.
Second, yes, please, continue reading the ENTIRE context. Then tell me how when Paul says to make prayers for "all men", he only means "some men"
First of all, then, I urge that entreaties and prayers, petitions and thanksgivings, be made on behalf of all men,
- 1 Timothy 2:1
Who is the "all" referring to?
You would claim that it means, 'every single individual human being without exception'.
Yet, as I stated, the CONTEXT tells us different.
"Context, Context, Context," is what one of my Lutheran brothers always says.
That's why I'm not a Lutheran, but a 5-Point Calvinist.
Synergists don't believe Christ died for ALL the sins of sinners.
They don't believe He died for the SIN of UNBELIEF!
Calvinists do!
That's one of the reasons any of us wicked, wretched sinners believe!
Because Jesus died even for the unbelief of His people!
"Because Jesus died even for the unbelief of His people!'
So you believe that Jesus died for His people? (Matthew 1:21)
Welcome to Calvinism!
But His people are believers, not unbelievers. Although they might have been unbelievers (lost sheep) at one point.
@@maxmustermann1206 Yep, I'm definitely a 5-Point Calvinist for that very reason.
*Soli Deo Gloria*
HEBREWS 2:9
But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
Wish the pastor would have actually answered the question as to why still pray and evangelize. And what Piper actually said. It's about the 52 minute mark. He goes off on tangents but never really answers. I needed to hear those answers.
The answer as to why we still pray and evangelize is very simple: God commands us to.
@@douglasmcnay644 Yep. I know. Thanks for replying. But I mean I really wanted to hear what he had to say about it. If you listen every time he was about to discuss it he deviated.
Imagine you invite people to your home for a meal and they come and sit down to the table. You made food for all but some decide not to eat. Did you desire for them to eat and be full. Of coarse you did, that's why you prepared the food and a place for them. It was their choice not to eat.
God has invited us All to accept salvation and has prepared a heavenly home for All. He sent his son to die for All so that they may All come to know Him because He desires that none should perish. That is where each and every person has the choice to accept the salvation that was offered or refuse it.
So the answer to your question as to why we pray and evangelize because God commanded us to do both. We pray because it is our choice to communicate with God who loves us All and we evangelize to Go into all the world and share the gospel because Jesus died for All and wants All to be able to make the choice to accept that salvation!
If Jesus did not die for All like what was preached here, then evangelism would be pointless as all the predestined sheep would already be accounted for and the choice that I made to follow Christ was not my own. I am not a slave of Christ but I am a believer because of the love that that God has shown for me and I serve Him because of my love for Him and because of the choice I made with my own free will. So now I pray to communicate with the father and evangelize so that others can have the same opportunity!
@@jaykruckenberg9719 Thank you Jay for that long answer. I appreciate it. And I always did agree 100%. But now I’m not sure. What you are stating isn’t Calvinism or predestination. It’s our choice. But Calvinism believes it’s not what we do but instead what God had already chosen. Chosen the Elite. So if you’re not chosen then it doesn’t matter what you chose. This Calvinism is very confusing and goes against everything I ever believed. Yet all the Pastors that I greatly respect believe this. And to be honest your reply kinda confuses me also. It’s sounds like you’re backing Calvinism yet explaining Arminianism. Sorry if I’m not getting it. I’m trying here
Sorry if it was confusing. I am not backing Calvinisn whatsoever. While they throw in some truth to make it sound good, its not entirely true.
Jesus died for All mankind. That is the essence of John 3:16. "...Whosoever believes in Him will have eternal life." The Whosoever are the people who choose to believe in Christ, repent and follow Him. The important thing for us is that we make that choice!!
Whom ever believes will be saved!
Not according to this cult
Yes of course, but the whoever here is not qualified. It doesn’t say anyone can believe…it just says that those who do believe will not perish but have everlasting life! Scripture is pretty clear that no one can come or believe unless the father gives them to the son.
@@jerrysponaugle9411 Enjoy the kool aid!!!
@@Stryper1 Kool aid tastes good but is not good for you... just like your view of free will. I stopped drinking the kool aid a long time ago.
@@jerrysponaugle9411 Wow…that took you three weeks to come up with that response???
How do calvinists reconcile Calvin's actual veiws on Christ's Atonement, since it contradicts their unbiblical philosophy of 'limited' atonement?
In his commentary on Galatians 5:12 Calvin said:
"It is the will of God that we should seek the salvation of all men without exception, as Christ suffered for the sins of the whole world."
In his commentary on Colossians 1:14 Calvin said:
"By the sacrifice of his death all the sins of the world have been expiated. "
In his commentary on Romans 5:18 Calvin said:
"Though Christ suffered for the sins of the whole world, and is offered through God's benignity indiscriminately to all, yet all do not receive him."
You're not teaching the true gospel. If Christ only died for some and if your honest with yourself, then you really cant be sure that you're one of the ones Christ died for.
So in effect youre not trusting in Christ death and resurrection, you're just hoping that he died and rose for you.
Thats not really faith in the work of Christ.
Jesus says, 'Go ye into all the world, and preach the Gospel to every creature' (but remember, "Christ did not die for every person"). He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned' (Mark 16:15,16). And yet, 'He is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world' (1John 2:2). But, "Christ did not die for every person"!!!
Acts 17:24-32 and John 3:16-18 may help us to understand; but "Christ did not die for every person!!!" Just for 'the world' that believe 'in Him'. Obviously.
@michaelstanley4698: Go ye into all the world, and preach the Gospel to every creature' (but remember, "Christ did not die for every person")
Remember the parable of the soils? The sower sows the seed EVERYWHERE!. We do not know the what type of "soil" each person will have. Only one type of soil produced fruit: the seed that fell on the good soil - Those are the true converts, the true believers, Jesus' sheep, His people, His Church.
@michaelstanley4698 "'He is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world' (1John 2:2). But, "Christ did not die for every person"!!!"
Yes, as Pastor Joel explained, "whole world" does not mean "universal" or "each and every single person" If you think that is the case, you either believe the heresy that everyone goes to Heaven, or you believe that Jesus even paid for the sins of those in Hell. If Jesus paid for the sins of those in Hell, then why are they there?
As Pastor Joel explained, "world" meant globally. John was a Jew from Israel. By "world", he meant there will be people from every tribe, language, and nation.
@@maxmustermann1206
Paul writes, 'Christ died for the ungodly' (Rom.5:6)...universal language.
The gospel is preached 'to every creature'...universal language. That is, 'all men' (Rom.5:12) in Adam (Rom.5:14,19).
The word 'general' is a better term than 'limited', although men limit God by their unbelief (Ps.78:32,41). General means all, admitting of exceptions. There is no redemption for devils, such as Judas, and those that become devils (even one-third of the angels). The atonement is 'for sin', while redemption is "for kin' (Christ is our kinsman Redeemer), and to conflate the two is not paying attention to distinctions.
John Calvin taught a universal call of the Gospel 'to every creature', admitting of a general atonement for those receiving Christ (Jn.1:12, Rom.5:11,17). And he also taught a particular redemption, staying true to Scripture alone, and not men's reasonings. No one has 'salvation' (Lu.2:30) except those 'in Christ'...obviously. The word 'world' in Acts 17:24 is the same Greek word used in Jn.3:16-17 and 1Jn.2:2; and William Tyndale has God 'hath offered faith to all men' in Acts 17:31 (as the Greek literally reads). What limits God in Christ is 'unbelief' (Heb.3:12-19, 4:11), thus, men send themselves to Hell by rejecting God's Salvation (Lu.2:30, 3:6).
While on earth, Jesus preached to EVERYONE whether they accept his
message or not. That’s exactly what John 3:16 is saying: “So that EVERYONE exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life.”
Romans 5:8: “But God recommends his own love to us in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for US.” Even people who hadn’t been born yet, Jesus died for us ALL.”
Hebrews 2:9: “But we do see Jesus, who was made a little lower than angels, now crowned with glory and honor for having suffered death, so that by God’s undeserved kindness he might taste death for EVERYONE.”
The amazon book: *"Why are you rejecting god ?: Journey from rejection to revelation"* By Kaylee Diamond
Explains what this guy said really well and it demonstrates the conversation between believers and unbelievers
Christians who believe that "Christ died for every single individual human being without distinction" much also hold to Universal Salvation (a heresy!).
Luckily, most are not consistent in their beliefs.
Rom. 5:9, "Since, therefore, we have now been JUSTIFIED BY HIS BLOOD, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God."
Universal Atonement ----> Universal Justification...
...and Universal Justification leads to Universal Glorification...and NO LAKE OF FIRE FOR THE "not my people".
See the problem?
*Soli Deo Gloria*
You're not being honest about church history on this subject. Is that deliberate or simply ignorance? 🤔
There is only one way through, it is the narrow way... the broad one doesn't even go the same direction, it goes opposite. Simply put, God does not have two roads that lead into one place. If you have been saved, walk in Christ, for just as he lifted you up when you were low, surely he can lower you when you are lifted.
The title of this sermon is straight out of hell. Christ indeed died for all! To say otherwise is to work against the Gospel of Christ!
Pastor Joel, how would Arminians answer this question:
If Jesus paid for a limited amount of sins for every single person, do people go to Heaven?
They could answer "no" because there can be no sin in Heaven; so everyone goes to Hell (which is not Biblical).
They could answer "yes", but then WHY do people go to Heaven if there is unpaid sin debt? Does God allow sin into Heaven? No. If the sins weren't paid by Christ, did the people pay for them? Where - in Purgatory? No, Purgatory is not Biblical. Can you earn your way to Heaven? No. "... if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly." (Galatians 2:21) So, if Jesus paid for a limited amount of sins for every single person, then everyone is actually in Hell paying for the sins that Christ didn't atone for. And you still have Jesus dying needlessly. This position is untenable.
How do you miss the obvious, of choosing to accept the payment of sin and choosing not to??? Payment is in full if you "chose" to receive it.
So Jesus didn’t satisfy the wrath of God according to you. If there is still wrath in hell how did He satisfy wrath and there is still some left? I’m not trying to argue with anyone but that’s just not logical to me.
People decide who can come can come over to their house and when. Does God have less rights? NO. God decides who can come to to His house and how (John 10:1, 9). God didn't send out invitations to everyone and people get offended at that.
Have you read the parable of the wedding feast? ROFL. The implication is that he did invite everyone...
@@mccaski2 Nope, you're wrong. "But he said to him, “A man once gave a great banquet and invited MANY." He did not invite everyone. But the people He invited refused the invitation. "‘Go out to the highways and hedges and compel people to come in, that my house may be filled. For I tell you, none of those men who were invited shall taste my banquet.’” You can't imply that He's inviting everyone either. He sends out the invitations EVERYWHERE, but they are not intended for everyone.The invitation is for His People. He just needs to find His people (the lost sheep). Parable of the soils: The sower sows the seed EVERYWHERE. Will all seeds produce fruit? No. Will everyone respond to the Gospel? No. "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me." (John 10:27) His sheep WILL follow Him. They don't choose to follow Him. They hear His voice and follow Him.
The parable is about Jews and Gentiles. Originally, only the Jews were invited. But they refused. Then those outside the city (highways and hedges) were invited, namely Gentiles. It's a warning to the self-righteous elitists: "For I tell you, none of those men who were invited shall taste my banquet." (Luke 14:24)
I don't agree with Calvanism, but always learn a ton from your preaching even when you're wrong. Clear and to the heart of the issue!
My follow up question would be: if Jesus died for all the sins of the elect and fully paid for them 2,000 years ago, how can the Bible ever describe a believer as being saved out of their past sinful life? Or said differently, do you think every elect person is regenerate at the start of their life? If not, then why not?
The answer to many of the so-called dilemmas that folks wrestle with, when it comes to reformed theology can be summed up in the "both/and" approach, rather than "either/or". From God's eternal perspective, He sees the end from the beginning, so there's no linear aspect to our salvation. We have been and always will belong to Him. From OUR perspective, His plan of salvation plays out in real time. There is a moment in time (an appointed time) when God brings us from death to life, and regenerates our dead spirits. Before that moment, we were unregenerate. There is a biblical consistency, here. Jesus is fully God and fully man. The Bible was written by God and yet by man. Man is saved from all eternity, yet becomes saved in real time when He places his faith in Christ, as a result of being changed by the Holy Spirit. This dual track of God's perspective and man's perspective is seen throughout the pages of Scripture, from Genesis to Revelation.
Great sermon.
Side note, I always think to myself that brother Joel needs his mic raised lol, but maybe he prefers it that way.
This is a fallacious argument. He sets up a situation, saying that the typical response to "limited atonement" is to say that salvation is a gift and people can reject it which is why there are people in Hell. Then he asks whether rejecting the gift of salvation is a sin which he then answers that -- yes it IS a sin -- and so then didn't Jesus die for that sin also?
Well, that's where his error is. He takes the same approach here that evolutionists take -- he makes an assumption and then uses that assumption to prove the assumption. Circular reasoning.
The mistake is to insist that rejecting the salvation that Christ offers is a sin. It is not... It is a CHOICE. Not everything we do in life is able to be translated into "SIN" or "NOT SIN". There are some things - many things - that are simply choices. Then, that choice causes us to make further choices that lead into actions which are sinful. But the choice itself is not a sin. By making the choice to reject the salvation of Jesus, a person does not do the necessary next steps, which would be to believe in their heart and to confess with their mouth that Jesus is Lord. Having rejected the salvation of Jesus, and refusing to acknowledge Jesus as Lord, the person makes a choice to take a path different from what God has planned. And that is what results in a person winding up in Hell.
Those who believe in "limited atonement" have to twist Scripture, avoid focusing on specific verses, and misinterpret other verses.
I don't know why people choose to believe in this theory. Personally, I don't see it as a "salvation issue". If a person believes Jesus is Lord and yet believes in a "limited atonement", then when they get to Heaven they will find out they were wrong. What gets you to Heaven is believing that Jesus is Lord, not that He only died for some not all.
Your message was very technical and scriptural. If you had not yelled for the whole hour I would have gotten it better. I want to hear it again, but the non-stop yelling in the mic distracts me from making it easy to hear and contemplate. This message is not spoken about this way very often. People call me a Calvinist so I did understand most of the yelling sermon. That double payment for sin thing was very interesting. The fact that God IS in hell present before those in hell is scriptural, but I never thought of it that way before. If I could yell Thank you for a solid hour I would. Not because I want to, but because it's the way you talk and hear things. Do you know of anyone I could go listen to this same point of view that just talks?
Did you "choose" to educate yourself? Of course you did. Youre whole entire experience on this planet is choice driven. "Choice" is God given from the beginning of time i.e., Adam and Eve.
Jesus did die for all but all are not willing to follow Him
I am all for logic, but that was some crazy logic. I subscribe to a Lutheran view of the atonement, where every sinner has been fully forgiven and justified by Jesus Christ’s death and resurrection. The sins of the human race were imputed to Christ and every human being was declared righteous as a result. This view is actually similar to Karl Barth, in that both Lutherans and Barth affirm a universal objective justification that arises from the universal atoning death of Jesus .Christ where every sin committed by every human being since Adam was paid / satisfied in full by Jesus Christ. Even though Lutherans hold onto an unlimited or universalist view of he atonement, this does not mean that everybody goes to heaven. The blood Christ shed for all men must be applied through faith, and very few do. The overwhelming majority of people do not apply the blood to themselves through faith, either because they do not hear the gospel or they hear it and reject it, so they die in their sin without receiving any of the benefits of the atonement. I am not sure how this is so difficult to understand, it is the biblical explanation and logical as well. Your argument that God would be unjust in punishing a sinner for whom Christ died and cleansed from his sins is faulty, because sinners must through faith receive this cleansing, without faith it does not benefit them.
Christ's blood only purchased the "church of God", which is believers.
"Be on guard for yourselves and for all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you [a]overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood." (Acts 20:28)
2Peter 2:1 But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even DENYING THE SOVEREIGN LORD WHO BOUGHT THEM --bringing swift destruction on themselves.
Jesus' blood is wasted on any one of us. So why does there have to be perfect "math."
@@mccaski2 You're misunderstanding 2 Peter 2:1. Peter is not saying that false teachers were bought by Christ. It's not a theory of atonement. False teachers will claim that they are bought by Christ, but Christ only died for believers. "Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord,...And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." (Matthew 7:23)
@@mccaski2 "Jesus' blood is wasted on any one of us. "
Not a single drop of Jesus' blood was wasted. Jesus only died for His sheep.
Premise 1: Jesus lays His life down for His sheep. (John 10:14-15)
Premise 2. Some Pharisees are not Jesus' sheep. (John 10:26)
Conclusion: Jesus did not lay down His life for some Pharisees.
IF Jesus did not lay down His life for some Pharisees, THEN He did not die for everyone.
Jesus lays His life down for His sheep. (John 10:14-15)
Jesus came to save HIS PEOPLE from their sins. (Matthew 1:21)
Who are His people? Who are His sheep? Believers. (John 3:16 - WHOSOEVER BELIEVES should not perish but have everlasting life)
@@maxmustermann1206 That's not what it says. You are reading in your systematic.
My point is that Jesus dying for us is not in anyway JUST. IT is extravagant mercy, grace, and love. So who are we to tell him that he cannot shed is blood for the unbelievers as well as the believers (just because it doesn't fit our nice little box systematic theology. @@maxmustermann1206
So, a believer was a sheep before they believed? Cuz that's the logic of what you are saying, imo.
Very good! Thank you so much!!
It would be helpful to give some practical teaching on how Christian parents should pray for their own children when it comes to salvation. This is a constant struggle for me, balancing my intense love for my children and desire for their salvation with Gods election.
The most practical advice I could hope to give would be to follow after Jesus Christ and not John Calvin. As you get to know Him better I believe you will find that many of the interpretations by the other JC amount to a different gospel than what is preached in the New Testament and do not hold up under biblical, let alone logical scrutiny. It does not seem to me that the Lord is in the business of electing some of your children to salvation and not others.
@@JoelCarlson1 I have not read this John Calvin that you speak of. What I’ve learned of election has been from the Apostle Paul in his epistle to the Romans.
This is one very big problem with sifting Scripture first through a Calvinist lens. It can leave us very hopeless for our labors in guiding our children to faith.
@@jdm8419I would definitely check out Romans some more and read the context of all the old testament quotes and passages Paul uses there in describing what he is talking about. I believe it will lead you to some different conclusions.
@@jdm8419election is never to salvation. Nobody was elect to be saved.
Christ DID die for every person. Salvation is available for ALL.
'ALL we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us ALL. (Isaiah 53:6, KJV). Calvinists would certainly say the first 'all' in that scripture means all people, total depravity and all. But the second 'all' is the same word in the same context. But they say that doesn't mean all people. Because, you know, calvinism says it can't mean what it says because it's not compatible with calvinism. Jesus did die for everyone, and that doesn't mean everyone is saved. That's just a calvinist lens being applied. There is a requirement on people - 'For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.” (John 6:40, NASB). Of course calvinists think God regenerates you then you have faith. But again the bible says 'So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ. (Romans 10:17, NASB). Here's the order - In Him, you also, AFTER listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation-having also BELIEVED, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, (Ephesians 1:13, NASB) So who is saved ? - 'But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who BELIEVE. (Galatians 3:22, NASB)
That is self-righteous doctrine. Pride. Renounce it now. Renounce it.
Wow there is no faithful exegesis in what you just sent
No. Jesus is a perfect savior. He saves *EVERYONE* that he died for to the uttermost.
Jesus did not fail to save, the position you posit.
How so? How is what Keith3362 said, a direct quote from the Bible btw, a self-righteous doctrine? explain yourself please. @@andriesquinton1555
@@andriesquinton1555 Seriously? Faith is not a work and I quoted a bunch of scriptures. Give me one.
Your argument is based on your own reasoning. The scripture is clear. Jesus died for our sins not only ours but for the whole world. He died for our sins ( believers) and those who are not believers. You just don’t like what it says in first john. It says what it means the whole world. A person who is saved does so by faith. I am not a universalist or a heretic. You are trying to make the scriptures say what you want it to. The real question is will God turn away anyone from believing the good news? Don’t be an exclusivist. No, everyone will not be saved but that is the free will choice we all must face. God wrote a blank check on salvation all we need to do is write our name on it. John 3:16.
Christs death is all about the sufficiency of his death and the scope of his death. Christ’s death was sufficient for every sin of every person so no one can on judgement day say my sin was so great Jesus death was not sufficient - it was but in it’s scope-for the members of his bride - who the Father alone knew - Eph 1:4 - in John Jesus said
“My sheep hear my voice - you do not hear because you are not my sheep” He was dividing those for whom He would die - sufficiency / scope - the difference must be understood
No. That's a rationale predicated on the basis of Penal Substitution. The Penal Substitution idea is actually false.
Christ's death was rather to prove to the Spirit that He would not hold the law over His bride: it was death to self, not punishment by the Father.
This is why He had to come to the Jews, for the Jews were the custodians of the law, which law Christ who is God gave them.
That is, in order to prove to the Spirit that He (Christ) would not hold the demands of the law over His wife (i.e. that He would not demand anything of her but would love her as Himself) He had to go under the hammer of the very law which had otherwise constituted those demands and which He had written.
So the atonement was not limited synthetically (as traditional Calvinism asserts) but organically and this by virtue of what it actually was, namely, death to self with respect to His wife. That is, He actually couldn't die for anyone but His wife, for a husband can't die to self for a woman that is not his: there is no opportunity to express death to self with a woman with whom one is not in the bond of marriage.
"He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole WORLD" 1 John 2:2 ESV, The L in tulip is demonstrably false. Why would we preach the gospel of grace to anyone. If we are honest then according to Calvinist theology then God might have died for you, but probably not because there is only a very small amount of people who Christ died for so you probably aren't them. So sorry to tell you that God doesn't actually love you.
Sick....and NOT the Gospel. This isn't good news. This is terrible news. The arrogance oozes from this character.
I agree what's your take on calvinism
Lol Pastor Joel in the thumbnail ready to "hadouken" his congregation 😅
I can hear Self Determinist, Leighton Flowers, right now...."How dare you say Gods Sovereighn effectual grace gifted you the salvific faith OF Jesus Christ!"
Leighton is Theistically Determined to be a Self Determinist and to reject the power of Gods effectual grace.
Why do I bring up Leighton? Because he certainly is going to attack this preaching of the Gospel of Gods effectual grace. He is unable to resist.
@ManassehJones It's not a very effectual Grace/Gospel if you have to be forced to accept it/believe it, and is not persuasive in itself. The Bible says:
Romans 1:16
"16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes: first to the Jew, then to the Gentile. 17 For in the gospel the righteousness of God is revealed-a righteousness that is by faith from first to last,[e] just as it is written: “The righteous will live by faith.”[f]
18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities-his eternal power and divine nature-have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse."
Why are peopel without excuse? Because they have a choice to believe and the evidence is convincing.
@mccaski2 Amen to those texts. Are you a born again son of God? If so, it was effectual for you, wasn't it? Is it for everyone? No.
Gods effectual grace is when he gifts you the salvific faith of Jesus Christ. Your faith alone, if unregenerate, will not save you.
No, they are without excuse because they have been given the truth but suppress it in unrighteousness by following after the sinful intent of their hearts.
@aaronreale67 So they deserve to be eternally condemned because they didn't utilize their autonomous free will and choose to go from a unbeliever to a believer. Right?
@@ManassehJones agreed, it is WHO we put our trust/faith in, not our faith that saves us (faith is not a work). The chair is available to anyone to sit on (trust in), but some will trust in their own ability to sit down on "nothing." It was effectual for them, they just didn't use it effectively (at all).
IF you believe that God chooses his elect ( elect means to choose by the way ) then it makes sense that Christ pays the penalty for only the elect, for why would Christ die for those whom he does not choose ? but...we as Christians invite all to believe, for only God knows who his elect are....we sow the seed...and God causes the growth...I don't understand why so many get upset with this Biblical Doctrine, for it honors God to the Nth degree...which is why I became a believer in Reformed Theology...for God is honored with providing all saving grace....now if you believe that we choose salvation ourselves then you are left with God unfairly placing people in history with better chances to believe the gospel than others....example...a person born in So Cal USA in 1960 with all the ubiquitous Jesus movement preaching....or a person born in Borneo in 500 AD with no chance of hearing the gospel......but as Romans states...that they are all with out excuse.....for God has placed his knowledge in all men....so the "Arminian" God still chooses....you can't get away from that....
Aptly stated. The other side's arguments completely crumble upon closer inspection of the claims. God has put MANY humans in places and times where there would have been absolutely no chance of contact with the gospel or the nation of Israel and have perished without ever being given the "opportunity" to believe. I love when they incite the idea that "Well God can do anything, including sending messages to people in dreams or visions who are in those situations" but do not give any Scriptural support for such ideas. I'm not saying this is not possible, but what I am saying is that if God doesn't do this for EVERY SINGLE INDIVIDUAL who has ever lived who has never had contact with His people or His Word, you are left with the same problem.
There is no such thing as an 'Arminian' God.
God is Sovereign. Deal with it
Or not. According to you, it IS up to you 😏
@@douglasmcnay644 This whole thing about what about the people that won't hear (even none can be named for sure) is the EXACT argument atheists use. Stick with scripture.
@@toolegittoquit_001 calvinists have their own definition of sovereign. And it's ridiculous.
2Peter 2:1 But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even DENYING THE SOVEREIGN LORD WHO BOUGHT THEM --bringing swift destruction on themselves.
So Jesus bought them, but they will still be destroyed? Sounds like free will and consequences of rejecting Christ to me.
If Jesus did not die for everyone you have no objective way of knowing if He died for you. Just subjective appeals to experience. It's a horribly false and incoherent doctrine of demons.
You have it backwards. If he died for people who go to hell, YOU have no way of knowing if you'll be redeemed or not
You would qualify trusting in your own personal profession of faith as the "objective" way of knowing you are saved? I'm sure you could probably list a bunch of people in your own experience who gave a profession of faith, only to have gone completely off the rails and apostatize, so it sounds like trusting in your own decision isn't as trustworthy or objective as you would purport.
By faith you know that he died for you. That you are elect. So your argument is dismissed.
@Eloign I toally agree. God is actually good. If we don't beleive that Christ died for all we have no way of knowing that Christ actually died for us. There is no security in Calvinism. Keep spreading the truth.
"If not every pie is an apple pie, then you have no objective way of knowing if you have an apple pie or a pecan pie."
You cannot discern between A and B, and so give up on discerning and declare that all is A. This is not the righteous way.
Jesus told us who he died for - those who repent and follow him. Ultimately, everyone must choose either to always follow God or always reject him. There will come a fork in the road where you must pick one or the other, to eternal life or death.
If Post Mil is correct, why did Jesus pose the question "when I come, will I find faith on the Earth?" And also why did Jesus say that because sin shall ABOUND the love of many will wax cold? And birth paigns shall get worse, and the Beast will be worshipped by the Whole World except those whos names are written in the Book of Life? None of this sounds like the world coming to Christ. Im sure ill get some preterist type response.
Joel called Rohan from Lord of the Rings Rodan… I think this would be cause for us to pause and examine his theology
The, "particular" in Particular Baptist
Scripture clearly teaches He did brother. I use to hold the same reformer, Calvinistic worldview you do. Please let scripture speak for itself over your allegiance to a philosophical system. The way you interpret passages that obviously contradict the thesis is misleading.
“The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some men count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.”
2 Peter 3:9
It is not logically possible that the Lord chose those who will perish and those who will not from the beginning of the world without their collaboration and ALSO is unwilling that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.
This violates the law of non contradiction which says “contradictory propositions cannot both be true in the same sense at the same time.”
God cannot will some people perish and not will those people perish in the same way at the same time. The only possible logical way you can reconcile these apparent contradictory scripture from a Calvinistic worldview is to say that the way He decrees them to perish before the foundation of the world is different in some sense then the way He does not wish them to perish.
Please explain the distinction.
Was leighton flowers helpful or just personal study to come to your conclusion
Good morning. I have actually never seen one of his videos or read anything from him, though I have seen his videos suggested many times.
This has come from me being led by the Spirit to the traditional churches of Eastern Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism. The unanimous consensus of the ancient churches-not to mention the church of the east and the orientalist orthodox which hold similar, if not the same, soteriological views if I remember correctly-should at least be incredibly compelling for sincere study. Is it really likely that all of the other traditional churches claiming to be handed down from the apostles and holding said handed down tradition up with the same weight as sacred scripture got it wrong and reformers in the 1500s finally got it right?
That is compelling based off of authority, history, and tradition alone though. Scripture itself, I suggest, is clear on its own. There is scripture in the old and New Testament asserting the Lord does not desire the destruction of the wicked.
“‘I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that the wicked person should turn from his way and live. Repent, repent of your evil ways! Why will you die, house of Israel?’”
Ezekiel 33:11
“‘Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked?’ declares the Sovereign LORD. ‘Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live?”
Ezekiel 18:23
“Again, when a righteous person turns from their righteousness and does evil, and I put a stumbling block before them, they will die. Since you did not warn them, they will die for their sin. The righteous things that person did will not be remembered, and I will hold you accountable for their blood.”
Ezekiel 3:20
So, it is the Lords will all come to a knowledge of the truth, he does not desire the wicked perish, and he is patiently waiting, affording as much time to sinners as is possible. But, it is the choice of the creature if he or she will turn to the Lord and accept His mercy, grace, and submit to His will.
@AlixPrappas oh yea I don't hold to calvinism and think at best it's wrong and worst with limited atonement is heresy, I can't accept eastern orthodoxy because of the images and Marian theology but I do think that logic even if it's not been used by the original church has to be a means by how we understand truth. Using that we can run in a plethora of different contradictions in calvinism
If you accept the bridge analogy (I do) universal atonement makes believers into Pelagians. If a natural man has to use his autonomous, unregenerate mind to make that leap of faith, he's accomplishing what is stated unequivocally in Romans that he cannot do. Even if it is stipulated that the atonement was potential, as non-Calvinists do, it still comes down to the elect being the only persons with the potential and actual. Without the election by God, the natural man has no potential whatsoever. Jesus told Nicodemas, unless you are born from above you cannot perceive the kingdom of God. He told the pharisees they have heard the truth from him and they did not believe because they were not his sheep. Not because they were stupid or unaware, but they were not his sheep. In Romans Paul writes that it is impossible for the natural man to please God. It is impossible for him to subject himself to God's law. But Arminianism wants us to believe that none of that matters when it comes to man's faith-before-regeration soteriology.
If Jesus died for everyone, God is just a big cosmic gambler, throwing the dice and hoping for the best outcome.
I say not a chance.
Really? Because you human, a person who is in a fallen world can understand what God knows, how He knows it and all His ways? It's actually laughable. You act like it's all this big huge gamble for an eternal God. God wasn't just here before us, He is and has been here for eternity. You do realize we are on a planet, in a solar system, that is in a galaxy with billions of solar systems, that is in a universe with billions of galaxies, and that's all that's known by humans so far? Do you really think you have full 100% understanding off all that God can see and know?
Wait... is that not what calvinism says?
God throws the dice on who gets saved and damns the unlucky losers?
Calvinism is full of piety and makes God to be unmerciful to the image bearers he created and died for. Faith is NOT a work, its trusting in the free gift provided, its just that men do reject Christs blood.
Hebrews 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
That makes no sense, try again
Say it louder forfor the the 94% of professing Christians who aren't born again!
(result of Barna study sept 2021)
Why say it louder if Christ didn't die for them? Forget those people.
I liked the part about Theoden and Aragon. I now want a sermon about Gandalf at the gate: "You are men of Gondor! Whatever comes through that gate, you will stand your ground -- Gasp"
You try sooo hard to discourage God's gospel of grace. Guru mumbo jumbo speak.
What a load of nonsense. Is that simple.
Very fancy but, nah.
Excellent, clear, true preaching. Nice work.
Who then can be saved?
How do you know if you are elect. Am i better than my follow traveler. So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God. I though faith comes by hearing. I know God is Sovereign but God also told me to believe so i believe. @@michellebmouton
Jiel is one of the special ones , Apostle Paul said hrust Jesus came into the WORLD to save Sinners
Then why is everybody going to be resurrected?
If there's anyone Christ wouldn't die for, and the entire world would understand, it's the Roman Soldiers who scourged and crucified Him, yet He asked the Father to forgive them for they know not what they do. Couple that with; "For God so loved the world that He gave His Only Begotten Son, that whosoever believes in Him will not perish but have everlasting life. Also there's the thief on the Cross, acknowledged he was an arch criminal, and having been one myself before I came to Christ, I can surmise he never performed a so-called required ritual or gave God a second thought in his life, yet simply for acknowledging Christ upon his death and asking Jesus to remember him when He comes into His kingdom, Jesus promised Him "today you will be with me in paradise." I can keep typing examples of God's desire for THE WORLD to be saved until my fingers fall off. That doesn't mean everyone is saved. I've known too many people who rejected Christ.
This goes against what many people were raised up believing, it does make sense, how can people argue this when biblically it is true🤔
Is it God's will for all to be saved?
You are deluded. DELUDED.
@@tomtemple69 YES, but it's not everyones will to serve Jesus and be saved. Some are perfectly content to serve the devil, pure evil, and some just take the Faustian bargain Jesus refused, essentially offering all the money, beautiful women, material riches etc., their hearts desire, and they take it. I personally know a lot of them. They're called gangsters and I know how they think, cause I was one.
@@tomtemple69 Anyway, if you want a scripture to answer your question: "God is long suffering, not willing that any should perish, but that ALL should come into repentance."
This is such an indefensible position anymore. This is what happens when your more dedicated to your Augustinian beliefs than the clear teaching of the Bible. You either end up with such a clouded lense through which you read the Bible you can no longer allow it to clearly speak or you knowingly alter meanings to make it fit your doctrines. We need to drop the pride. God is greater and man is more responsible than these so called "Doctrines of Grace" allow.
If Jesus' death on the Cross was effective for all, then all would be saved. But all people are not saved so His death cannot be for all; unless God's will can be resisted by some
It is you that has a distorted view of God's Sovereignty if you think man can interfere with God's operation in HIS world.
There is nothing more pride crushing than Reformed theology. It specifically outlines how we are but sinful and wicked worms before a holy God, worthy of only being thrown into the eternal flames. It is only by God's grace and mercy upon us that ANYONE is allowed to be with Him in eternity.
On the other hand, we have pretty much any synergistic system (Roman Catholicism, Mormonism, JWs, Provisionists, Arminians, etc.) who all hold to the free will of man, that God provided salvation for all and that the choice is up to us. So if you were to boil everything down between why you go to heaven and your neighbor goes to hell, if God is equally loving to both of you and has provided salvation equally and everything else between you two is completely equal, what is the true determining factor between you two? You would have to say that it was you. Whether you were smarter than they were or more pious or humble or whatever other justification you come up with, you would have to say that YOU made the better choice, YOU worked harder, it is all about YOU YOU YOU. How is this not grounds to boast? I'm not saying you would actually boast, but in a logical/hypothetical scenario, how would this not be grounds to boast? Ultimately your good decision is what saved you. I couldn't think of a more pride-stoking system of belief than any that purports the concept of "free will", which as you stated is the actual "clouded lense" through which you are looking. It is a concept purely born from man's arrogance and is not derived from faithful exegesis of Scripture.
@@toolegittoquit_001amen, preaching brother. Like you, I will side with Scripture over what I would like to be true or how I feel.
God Bless
@@toolegittoquit_001 Well apparently God's Spirit can be resisted - '“You men who are stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears are always RESISTING the Holy Spirit; you are doing just as your fathers did. (Acts 7:51, NASB) The bible says so. Take your calvinist glasses off and read the bible.
@@keith3362Have you read anyone else except the Bible. Is the Bible the only thing you read?????? That is more pride. Do you not honour your fore fathers who have explained to us the Scriptures accurately and truly. Or do you shamelessly reject Church History for your own shameless interpretation of the bible. Which is no true interpretation, but you have utterly deceived yourself. You are shameless. You are shameless. Examine yourself.
Heretic
Herecy
"Those go to hell because God is not their father, their father is the Devil." But "father" in this context means "creator," so am I understanding correctly that The Devil creates some human beings and Yahweh others?
Sounds like Joel conflated two terms, one being "Our Father The Creator" and the other being "the devil the father of lies?" He used the term "father" synonymously, but they're not actually synonnymous? Well if that's the case, then he didn't actyally say anything, he just mumbled a bunch of things at the end there but didn't make any cohesive sentence.@kjbiblestudy2603
This... is not a sermon. This is the rhetoric of a spiritual bully. Joels body language shows cowardice, as he "barrows" power from God(Credit-DG), using it to diminish the Cross of Christ. _Lord, Please be it your will. Show Joel on his journey the power of your spirit. May it melt away his addiction and may he work to repair what he's done in his home. Amen_
I like most Calvinists, but this is just straight blasphemy. Jesus died for everyone, everyone in hell and whoever will go to hell couldn’t just accepted Christ and repented and gone to heaven. Everyone who is in heaven or ever will go to heaven could just as easily have gone to hell if they had not ACCEPTED Christ. He died for everyone so everyone had a chance. He doesn’t play some dumb game of “oh let me look into the future and see exactly how many people will eventually accept me so I only have to suffer for them.” No he looked into eternity and said I’m gonna die for all these fools regardless just so they have a shot even if they never love me back. Calvinists simply don’t understand the love of God or the heart of Christ. P.s. John Calvin was a murderer and a liar :)
"So that they have a shot"? That makes it sound like salvation is a game of chance or merit based. I posed a question above about the capacity of Noah's ark ☝️. How does 'having a shot' square with that?
100% agree. God is actually good.
@@solideomusical FAITH IS NOT A WORK READ THE BIBLE
@@keith3362 I never said it was, don't yell.
This is just honest Calvinism lol (not that I agree).
Spoken like a true Calvinist.
This guy creates his own world by creating false hypothesis, known as a fallacy, inventing word scenarios or questions to frame an unsound idea/argument.
For example, he states, “you don’t pay for the same sin twice” no bible verse.
“Jesus did not die for all” no bible verse.
Theses statements are useless and for what’s it worth, the bible calls them vain philosophies.
For example, when using the word “sovereignty” a Calvinist will introduce a man-made philosophy calling on God to predetermine before birth, the eternal worth of an individual whether dammed to hell or saved for heaven. Calvinist will state the sovereignty of God is unlimited, thus God MUST determine everyone’s fate before birth.
Does a driver’s ed instructor fail you before you get on the road because they can?
That’s like being heired for a company and fired 3 days later because it’s the company’s policy to predetermine employees worth before they get their feet wet. In other words, the company is sovereign over your ability to do your job, and thus they knew when they hired you, you would be fired for no apparent reason and sent home packing.
While it’s obvious that God is sovereign, the problem lies in how the Calvinist uses God’s sovereignty.
If you ever over extended your finances (not enough income to ratio borrowed), then you’ll understand what a Calvinist does to God’s sovereignty. Same here, a Calvinist will over-extend God’s sovereignty and stretch it beyond the scriptures by using false analogies and miss-aliening scripture.
As a Dad I am capable of beating my family members at golf. Should I therefore drag them to the golf course and prove how bad at golf they are just because I can beat them? While it’s possible in me doing so, it will never happen because if I did, I would not be much of a father, would I?
Do you see it? The possibility is always there. However, the implementation of the idea does not coincide with the description already given to us in the bible, or in my respect as a father.
When it says in the N.T that Jesus was slain before the foundation of the world, does that mean that Jesus did not have a will? Could Jesus have passed the cup back to the Father and denied himself the road to the cross while dying for all mankind? Yes.
Jesus stated, “not my will but yours be done”. Twice Jesus went before the Father and ask if this cup could be passed by. This alone shows us the viability of the will of Christ. The possibility was always there to deny himself going to the cross, however in obedience he did and provided to us the final sacrifice for all mankind, not to “some” individuals as your Calvinist would have you believe.
“And not only so, but also when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad-in order that God’s purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls- she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.””
Romans 9:10-13 ESV
@@lizantelo9349 gee whiz Liz,
ever heard of prophesy, foreknowledge?
@@lizantelo9349God has always hated esau because of foreknowledge of the things he'd do, esau was selfish and did not provide for his brother and rejected the hierarchy of responsibility therefore it was said
so stupid sermons
Let's see what kinda mental gymnastics he works up today
He didn't die for the servants of satan.
Or should I say eisegesis gymnastics
@nohomo4774 hmmm, he didn't?
2Peter 2 1But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even DENYING THE SOVEREIGN LORD WHO BOUGHT THEM --bringing swift destruction on themselves.
The Bible is mental gymnastics? To not believe this is to advocate for universalism
@nohomo4774 by that logic you can conclude that any professing christian that used to be satanist is a false Christian
The more I think about it, this is madness what was said in this video. For example, the question that if Christ died for all sins he must also have died for the sin of unbelief is a stupid question, because simply put unbelief is the failure to apply Christ who is the remedy for sin. Christ has in fact atoned for all sins, Roman’s 3:25 states that Christ was set forth as a propitiation through faith in his blood, now explain to me how the hell Christ made a propitiation for the sin of lack of faith or rejecting him, for that sin there is no atonement. And then the speaker concludes that if Christ atones for all the sins of all people except for the sin of rejecting Christ, then people can only be condemned for rejecting Christ but not for murder, adultery, etc. what a bunch of baloney, Christ is the remedy for sin, if you reject him you are rejecting the atonement he made for all your sins, including murder, adultery etc. Calvinists are either idiots or think we are fools to believe this garbage. Sorry I do not mean to be disrespectful, but I am fed up of false Calvinists logic that is used as an excuse to pervert the gospel, either out of ignorance or deliberate deception.
Calvinism is a damnable heresy.
Yes He did!!!
Did you watch the sermon?
I agree. The Bible is clear that Christ died for all.
@@johnnyjohnsonston2581 unfortunately yes. It's just a steaming pile of Calvinistic/Augustinian nonsense that is antithetical in every way to the character of God and Biblical revelation. I'm really sad that you can not see that. It spouts such a low view of God and such a high view of man.
In what way? Please explain your conclusions
@@joshcarz Which Bible are you reading?? The one which says what you want it to say I suppose.
This is such a distortion of God's love for us. He's skirting the line of heresy here.
In what way? Explain
Have you ever read the verse that says "for the transgression of my people was he stricken." Case Closed. Do not speak a word against the Scripture!!
If 'God so loved the world' then he is actually maligning the very character of God Himself.
@@keith3362 The world means Jew and Gentile, every elect person. Which is a great multitude that no man can number. A great many elect persons. Combine this with postmil eschatology, the world is going to be converted and become more and more Christian. Christ did NOT die for each and every person.
@@andriesquinton1555 it doesn't say that. it says world! you are reading in your theology.
@soteiriology101
@leightonflowers
Joel thinks Provisionism is not real...looking forward to the response and quality rebutals to this sermon.
Joel briefly mentions Provisionism, but seemed to dismiss it due to its similarity to Arminianism.
Provisionists believe people are Destroyed (sent to Hell) For unbelief and resisting the Holy Spirit. Pastor Joel said that Arminians believe there's only 1 unforgivable sin (unbelief). So Provionsists think that there are 2 unforgivable sins. But aren't they similar? Are they an unbeliever because they resisted the Holy Spirit, or did they resist the Holy Spirit because they are an unbeliever?
@@maxmustermann1206 There are NO forgiveable sins against God. Jesus is the reason that anyone can have right relationship with God, and that is not a "balanced/just/fair payment/propitiation/transaction" in any way. Not sure why we cannot appeal to mystery regarding how God's justice works in regards to his great mercy.
@@mccaski2 Those in Hell, received justice. Those in Heaven received grace.
@@maxmustermann1206 no disagreement on my end. except that God is powerful enough (and generous enough) have provided Grace to those who when to hell in the end.
@@maxmustermann1206no both received justice, in hell they chose justice against them and in Christ they used Christ as their savior, both justice