Rogue One vs. The Force Awakens - The Fault in Our Star Wars
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- Опубликовано: 10 сен 2024
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I recommend the audiobook "The Hero with a Thousand Faces" by Joseph Campbell as its the book that inspired George Lucas when he was writing the original Star Wars.
In this video I examine some of the flaws and imperfections in Rogue One and The Force Awakens to extract the lessons we can learn about showing vs. telling, active protagonists, and meaningful consequences.
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Hey guys! I just couldn't not do a Star Wars video. Hope you enjoy! What films should I do in a future video? Comment below to let me know your thoughts!
the room
I'm working on a video about The Tree of Life right now and the original screenplay is absolutely phenomenal, you should definitely check that out, especially if you want to compare how Malick puts stuff into words and how he ends up showing it on screen :)
Lessons from the Screenplay
Children of Men
Life of Pi
Under the skin
The good, the bad and the ugly
Tear into the star wars prequels ;)
Lessons from the Screenplay PLEASE DO HER
I work at a gas station, so I see a lot of crazy homeless people, but one of my absolute favorites was this old guy yelling in the parking lot about how Star Wars was inspired by the Hero's Journey as explained in The Hero with a Thousand Faces. And I mean literally shrieking about it.
Most well-read homeless guy I've ever met. I was beyond impressed.
TimeandMonotony :-D
TimeandMonotony the path of the hero is in many stories and franchises, The legend of zelda,Batman, LOTR books and movies, Game of thrones also both, and of course star wars is a formula that works almost every time
Pretty much any escapist story that involves stopping some sort of evil uses the Hero's Journey.
The Hero's Journey isn't really about escapism as far as I know... Everything I read from Campbell is about how the myths and rituals that we so quickly dismiss as irrational can still play an important role in our lives, even if it's external shapes have changed.
I say it's escapism because the typically hero goes beyond what any normal person is capable of. They do very unrealistic things and go on journeys not found in real life.
Right now, "Rogue One" is the only Disney SW movie that I actually like.
Dee Rush me too... Solo was meh
JCRivera98 so people are dumb because they have an opinion?
What's wrong with force awakens?
Marc RoselloWolder ok well first off I don't really care about the deeper lore. And this movie definitely didn't ruin the lore. That would be phantom menace when they introduced mediclorians. And in my personal opinion, I really liked Rey's character in TFA(TLJ is another story) and it's not that big of a deal that it copies a new hope, is it? As long as they introduce enough new elements into a familiar story, I think it's fine, even if it takes it a bit too far. It's better than the opposite extreme option of trying so hard to be original that the film suffers because of it(*cough**cough* Last Jedi*cough*).
I walked out halfway through Rogue One, garbage.
Before I start sharing my drastically different opinion, it is important that I make clear the fact that I absolutely adore your channel. Okay, allow me to differ...
I think the point of Rogue One is totally missed by so many. Jyn is written to be a passive protagonist - it's not a mistake. Much less is it a problem. The overall goal of Rogue One is to establish what is going on in the background of the Galactic Civil War. In order to do that, we are introduced to the character of Jyn Erso, the woman who makes none of her own choices due to the choices of others, due to the circumstance. The entire point of the film is to show how the war affected the lives of bystanders. It's also important to notice that, due to Jyn's choice to partake in the war, she helps in the Battle of Scarif and becomes the ultimate active protagonist. She shares the plans to the Death Star itself. Her character has entirely evolved thanks to her own choice, in turn finally becoming an active protagonist, active in the war.
(heavy breathing) Okay, there we go. I hope you see this, because I'm proud of myself for it.
I agree my friend!
I was thinking the same thing during the video. There is such a thing as being too faithful to formula, and Rogue One was a good example of violating the formulaic expectation of an active protagonist. I personally like stories where the protagonist has a shift like this; it's a real shift of character and a sign of true investment and bravery when someone who goes with the flow says "no, not this time" and takes action. And I've seen the inverse; people of action fighting against something and having to learn to let someone else take the initiative, leaders becoming followers. This is what they tried to do in Last Jedi with the hotrod pilot guy, whatever his name is; didn't work too well, but it CAN work well.
Well said
Was thinking the exact same thing. The entire sequence in Eadu gives us an understanding of the Empire.
I could not agree more. To add to your excellent points, Rogue One is a war movie, and in war movies, themes like inevitability, hopelessness, and tragedy play a much greater role than in other movies. That is why it makes so much sense for Jyn to start out as a passive, powerless and ultimately hopeless character. She is not a superhero that can forge reality to fit her needs, instead, she has the war thrust upon her, and she does not know how to deal with that. However, as the movie progresses and she starts to believe there is hope (which, by the way, is the main theme in my opinion), she becomes more proactive, until at the end she breaks away on her own to attack Scarif.
I also want to add that despite all the "telling", I do feel like Jyn conveys a lot more emotion than Ray, and I am not sure that "showing" would have been better. When she finally hears her Dads message, I can very much empathize with her. I cannot, however, empathize with Ray.
If you ask me, Rogue One’s characters felt more earnest. It’s actually a very simple story, a suicide mission. Is it perfect? Nope but the themes feel much more clear than in TFA and TLJ. Still, a great video.
I agree it’s themes are clearer than TFA but TLJ? I still see that film as having the most depth maybe out of any Star Wars episode... at least on par with bits of episode 5 and 6
R1 is SW without plot armor.
also, it's like the only suicide mission in film history that actually is a suicide mission
Krennic was the only character I liked or cared about in the whole thing, Cassian and Jynn were so bloody annoying.
Wait what actually are the themes of Rogue One?
the problem i have with TFA is that it makes the events of the original trilogy feel ultimatly pointless. We're right back were we started there's an evil empire led by the sith trying to take over the galaxy with planet destroying weapons, the group who stands in there way are out numbered and out gunned and the jedi are practicaly non existent and are basicly just legends. Nothings changed everything that luke,Leia,Han and everyone else did was all meaning less in the long term.
That's my biggest problem too. The "reboot" aspect of it.
thats exactly how i feel.. it honestly made the original trilogy not as good to me..knowing that the empire takes over again
shadows colossus That's my biggest gripe. "Back to Square one."
If the setting was more like on the lines of Knights of the Old Republic and a New an sprouting Jedi Order was growing while trying to stop a rising Sith movement I would have been more invested.
Think like "The Legend of Korra," after what happened in "The Last Airbender." A distinct setting different from the last story with a more complex plot and grey lines.
shadows colossus yeah it takes away from the impact of rotj, I wish there was an actual NEW threat/faction instead of the empire 2.0
thats what i always wondered too, like if the rebellion won wouldnt that make the first order the new rebellion? and if so how did they get all the money for a planet-sized weapon? and why are the "old rebels" as broke as rebels again?
Rogue One is my favorite of them all. None survive, they do what they must. Perfect.
It’s my 6th fave Star Wars film
The problem is the ones doing what they must are paper thin characters.
I liked Rogue One, too, but I really enjoyed the homey feeling of the Sequels. The standalones and the sequels both emerge as rich and entertaining installments in the franchise in their own unique way.
For me, originals, sequels = standalone, then prequels.
@@johnnymittle Mads?, Ben? …..Alan Tudyk even. Paper thin?
@@kellyharper8072 You named the villain, a minor character and the comic relief.
Like 8(!) heroes go unmentioned.
I think Jyn and Rey show two different outcomes to women who have had fight to survive their whole lives, and have been through the rough of it. Personally, I was able to relate to the grim, emotionally hardened, hopeless, and ultimately distant character that was Jyn Erso, more than the proactive and hopeful Rey. Like Rey, Jyn has had to claw for her survival since she was a child, however where Rey was able to hold onto an intact sense of hope that things will get better as long as she keeps going, Jyn has abandoned that hope and energy in favour of grim survival. She has nothing to latch onto that gives her anything to look forward to, her whole life has just been going from one moment of survival to the other, and to do this she has accepted that this is what her life is, and has abandoned the concepts of fighting for anything more than purely staying alive. And with this beaten sense of hopelessness, of emotional detachment, and fighting only to keep herself alive, the movie sets her up perfectly for a story about finding hope and fighting for causes more than yourself. Her starting the movie as a passive protagonist is a character development point, it is the start of her journey into becoming a character that sacrifices herself in the name of hope - the exact opposite mindset to how she started.
You see I think Rey’e hopefulness is also a survival mechanism. Jyn at least had people who looked after her, taught her things, she at least had the knowledge that her parents loved her, whilst Rey had nothing. Rey probably wouldn’t survive if she didn’t have hope to reunite with her parents and leave Jakku someday. I do relate to Jyn more too, but I think Rey’s hopefulness makes her such a vibrant character and I do love her for that, because she has something I lack and watching her gives me hope too. I personally love both characters and think they both have tragic stories which shaped them into strong and skillful protagonists, and don’t understand why people hate one or the other when both are written for different storytelling purposes.
@@lordofchaos1502 No offense, but I personally found Rey’s hopeful attitude generic. She doesn’t have a reason to be so hopeful in hard times or constantly being nice. It’s no different than any other by-the-book hero that we’ve seen all the time. That’s why I liked Jyn. She wasn’t nihilistic, but she wasn’t exactly a beacon of hope either.
Plus, Rey always winning and having her wishes fulfilled made it hard for me to relate to her. How can I relate to someone who’s never lost a fight? Who’s always a pyramid of virtue and optimism? Who knows what to do and how to do it? Jyn didn’t have that. And that’s what made her, in my opinion, so special
@@knightmare5097 actually, rey had a reason to be hopeful. We could see that in the scratches she made in her home's wall. She is waiting for her parents. In the film we saw how she rejected every opportunity of a new life outside jakku. Cause she was waiting for her parents. Therefore, is easy to assume she isolated herself in jakku in order to wait for her parents while working for unkar plutt. When she first met bb8, she could relate to his situation and that's why she helped him. But she initially rejected him as well. Then he begged her once more, and she agreed for him to stick around. As they spended more time togheter she even told him that she understand how waiting feels like. Then finn showed up, and we know the rest.
She helped them cause she was exited for the fact that she met a "resistance soldier" like finn and because bb8 had a map that kead to luke skywalker. We were given hints in the film that despite rey wanted to stay to wait for her parents, she was curious about a life out there in the galaxy (when she sees the ship take off on the horizon while eating her food) and also worried for how long she would have to wait for her parents (when she stares at that old lady while she was washing her scrap). So these two wishes in her constantly crash in the film.
The key moment where rey can't handle her conflict is when she found anakin's lightsaber. Maz told her the truth: her parents weren't coming back and deep down she knew it. This destroys her emotionally cause rey knows maz is right, but she is not willing to accept it and runs away. Then kylo kidnapped her. Finn, han and chewie went to rescue her. And han solo died... because of rey. If she hadn't rejected her future in the galaxy represented in taht lightsaber, then han wouldn't had gone to save her and therefore wouldn't had died. Rey made a mistake because of her flaw. Seeing the death of the first father figure she ever had because of the fact that she didn't want to let of hee blood family changed her. That is why she doesn't return to jakku by the end of the film. So this hole "rey is flawless and make no mistakes" doesn't makes sense at all.
@@alexheisenberg8709 But it ultimately makes her flaw pointless, as by TLJ, it’s gone and buried, and she’s back to “perfect beacon of hope”. She gets captured in TFA, but not only withstands Kylo’s torture, but also frees herself, on her own, making the whole rescue almost pointless.
And by the end of the trilogy, all of Rey’s wishes are fulfilled. Instead of living with the fact that her parents were bastards that left her, she’s content with knowing that they were just protecting her. She becomes a Jedi. She saves Kylo. She destroys Palpatine. The list goes on. And she loses nothing but a couple parental figures
Jyn lost a lot. She never knew exactly what to do. And when she did, she suffered for it. And died for the Rebellion. Rey knows exactly what to do, almost every time. And besides Leia and Han, she loses nothing.
TFA had a good idea with making her unable to handle the conflict. But it never hurts her again for the rest of the trilogy
@@knightmare5097 maybe she resisted kylo's mind probe and ultimately defeated him, but the fact that she made a mistake that moved the plot massively is still there. I agree that the mind trick might have been a bit exagerated, but her resisting the mind probe and defeating kylo makes total sense. More than that, it works for the plot in both cases. On one hand, kylo losing was the perfect way to stablish his conflict concerning the light. He thought killing his father would erradicate that conflict, but only increased it. That's why he couldn't use the dark side. On the other hand, rey winning was the perfect way to stablish her growth in the film. While she initially rejected every new opportunity, every new person that cared about her, and even anakin's lightsaber and the force, here rey grabs the lightsaber accepting the force, her future, defeated kylo the same way (she remembered maz's advice about closing her eyes and feel the force) but most importantly, she did all of that to protect finn. This is extremely important cause finn did what her parents didn't: he came back for her. She finally cared and protected someone who was there for her. So the hole rescue was the opposite of pointless.
And i extremely disagree on the "perfect beacon of hope". Yeah, she understood that her parents weren't coming back. But she had NO CLUE of what to do next. That's why she wanted to find luke. Not just for the resistance, but to ask for his help. Not just to understand her powers, but her past, origins and place in that story. She needs external validation and help to do something now that her life changed massively. And she fails at that, but of course nobody cares.
Luke didn't helped her the way she wanted to, and that lead her to trust kylo who was only manipulating her. Luke did taught her important lessons but she didn't want to see it cause she was obssesed with her parents identities. That's why she ignores luke's warning about that dark place in ahch-to that called to her, and went there. Only to find nothing and get disappointed once again. This is a foreshadowing of what happened after: she thought kylo could be redeem so she went to him, ignoring luke's warning (again) and she turns herself to the first order (a dark place). But she ends up with nothing since everything was a trap settled by snoke, and even after he was killed by kylo... he didn't turn.
This resembled perfectly how kylo was far from being like darth vader, and also how everything rey did was for nothing other than kylo's benefit. So i don't really see the "perfect beacon of hope". As if that weren't enough, kylo told her a much crueler truth than maz's: her parents were nobody, she was nobody, ad had no place in that story. In that moment, rey could've easily accept kylo's hand cause he was offering her everything she ever wanted: to belong to something and be important. But she didn't cause she finally understood that luke was right and if she joined kylo she wouldn't be any different than the man who killed han solo. Once again... she changed for the better and had to suffer for that. She basically lost everything she wanted in the first place when she went to find luke. And then she lost luke, being leia and the sacred jedi texts her only options to understand her powers now.
After this, it would have been amazing to see how rey struggles to have her own family and porpuse in the resistance, instead of being obssesed with her parents again. And that's one of the reasons i didn't like ep 9.
I feel this video mostly proves great artists know when to ignore theory. Rogue One follows none of the rules you shared and yet is so much better than Force awakens.
That characters suck though.
@@gbrow1604Yet the trilogy characters suck even more. Rogue One is only better COMPARATIVELY lol
Many of his criticisms do land tho. Rogue One is pretty good, but it could have been much better if many of those flaws brought up weren't there (like the inconsequential events like pilot being mentally assaulted).
@@chinguunerdenebadrakh7022 Unfortunately, the common pleb doesn’t care about blatant missed potential. Its why sh*t games keep getting goty
Agreed!
This was basically a WAY better version of Chris Stuckmann's "Analysed review". This video actually got the point across without seeming like they were saying 'anyone who likes this movie needs to have my opinion'. Great video, I've been waiting for something like this.
I hated Stuckmann's video. He basically told everyone who disagreed with him they don't know shit
I like Stuckmann but he isn't very good... kinda terrible even at making analysis videos. He's in the same league as JeremyJahns. Most of their reviews follow the structure of "This happened and it was cool. That happened, it wasn't very cool but then this happened and it was cool". You notice that Stuckmann really isn't able to break out of that style of writing in his "Analysed reviews" turning it from an Analysis video into an extended movie review.
@Garowice I agree, I unsubscribed to Chris for that reason. JeremyJahns is the same way, but he doesn't try to act more sophisticated than he is - he reviews things from a casual moviegoer perspective and doesn't hide it. Chris acts like he's some master of film study when he basically gives the exact same points as Jeremy, but more drawn out to sound insightful.
William Seamon Stuckmann repeats himself and doesn't edit it out, that annoys me. I like his enthusiasm for film but I don't go to him for analysis. Actually I mostly stopped watching him, though I am still subbed. Channel Criswell has some excellent analysis, and Chez Linsey, formerly The Nostalgia Chick, also really impresses me with her well-thought out arguments and how easily she discusses her points on camera. It's like she's not even using notes, tho she likely is somewhat. It makes me as a viewer feel like we're having a conversation, so I'm more engaged.
I still really like Stuckmann because he's one of the few reviewers with mainstream succes that pay attention to the craft and art of film. He actually takes the time to make reviews about smaller movies while Jeremy(Who I also like) is more directed to a mainstream audience.
You can tell that he has a deeper understanding of film as an artform but he has a hard time and is kind of awful at articulating and communicating his ideas beyond a mainstream style review.
just some thoughts here regarding rogue one:
Jyn's character arc IS the fact that she lets things happen to her, and finally she does something about it.
She finally faces the Empire that has killed her mother, taken her father and somewhat dictated her life.
They go to rescue her dad because Cassian is really there to kill him (and hide it as 'we need him to convince the rebel leaders', which is a fair point since they don't actually believe her when she tells them)
Bor Gullet doesn't always make people go insane, he says "it tends" which isn't 100%.
The reason for Bor Gullet is to show how paranoid and delusional Saw Gerrera has become, when he doesn't even trust the things that are proven to be true anymore.
The fact that she teams up with them to face the Empire is because she realizes her father gave his life to give the death star this one flaw, and his life would have been for nothing if the rebellion fails to exploit it.
(She also probably realizes that what Cassian said earlier was true, he changed his mind and actually didn't kill her father. In fact, he tried to help save him and actually saved her.)
Rey, however, goes through no such change. She is the same even throughout the eighth movie.
Naive, good and all-powerful (lol).
That intro with Rey, alongside the intro to Kylo Ren as well as Han Solo's death are the only really well made parts of TFA, great parts imo.
Jyn is the same from beginning to end. Bland af. I wished she got murdered by darth vader. At least something interesting would have happened to her.
@@bananian you make a fine contribution to the illiteracy rate
@@murph8907 why is it a “bro movie”. Explain.
@@murph8907 ye
Yup this!! I will always be SO freaking angry about the new star wars saga. Like... The first movie started kind of basic. "You're the last jedi.. you must step up to the plate and become our hero!" Versus by the last movie, it has so much to do with identity. Like, why couldn't you have had the whole identity theme going on for All three movies? Was it forbidden to do an identity arc for Rey too just cause they speed ran one for Finn?
Rogue One - No Opening crawl, no John William's score, no Jedi/focal point, a new SW formula/perspective/darker tone, etc, etc, etc. And still was better than TFA & TLJ, period!!! Ironic how Rogue One was more traditional SW than TFA, despite all the disadvantages and risks, taken.
RO was not suppose to be focused around the Jedi or the force. And still a better movie than TFA and light years better than TLJ
Idk man
RO can be really messy.
I still liked it quite a lot, but in my opinion TFA was on the whole a more consistent film.
Ram TFA was very lazy as a story, but I feel bad for the cast. So much talent, but so many bad decisions creatively and missed opportunities like TLJ. I think TFA should of started during Luke's Jedi Academy or prior to its destruction. Or They should of had Luke catching the Light Saber in the forest, instead of Rey. Mark Hamil even agreed, but we only see Luke for a brief moment. What a waist for Luke's character. Also the Villain shouldn't of been another Skywalker or relative in my opinion, that's lazy. Star Killer Base was an atrocious parallel to the OT, and a horrible idea for the story. TFA should of been what Rogue One was. Watch how the future of SW cinema becomes the standalone stories, While Rian's trilogy and Ep9 disappoint again & again.
The Force Awakens is a much better movie. Even if you think it doesn't meets some subjective list of "Star Warsy" things, it's still a better film.
SwaggerLikeUz
Idk,
But I have some thoughts
I liked em both. There’s this wall that RO fans keep wanting to build between the films
And I just don’t see it, (and I’m lore obsessed fan Sun guard RIP) it’s not that any of the films are flawless Star Wars movies are all a little dumb in one way or another.
It’s just what your looking for I guess. I never cared that much about Luke, crazy I now but growing up I was a bigger fan of the big picture characters; Old man Kenobi, Vader, Lando, Solo, Qui Gon (he believes in science) Marks role was kinda flat for me (as a youngling) his acting was solid most of the time but that’s not the point.
I think the reason I don’t necessarily agree with RO evangelists.
Is because I didn’t worship the legacy as much
I played Star Wars RPG’s and did all sorts of nonsense in the galaxy far far away
It’s not as untouchable to me
So a story with a predetermined ending and transcendental characters didn’t hook me personally as much as a entirely new solid cast pushing the lore past the known.
I’m disenchanted but still very much engaged
So RO and solo and kenobi (if that gets done) are all kinda less interesting and less engaging because we don’t have any skin in a the game it’s like the prequels but we know both the before and after so nothing all that big can actually happen.
I still like the films but the state of the medium is constrained. And the actual story told in RO wasn’t really necessary. I loved the ending I loved K2SO I Loved Vader but no Rey Finn and Poe are just more important.
There building the NEXT chapter and my focus is on them.
Honestly none of this really bothered me about the characters in Rogue One. Can the same things be said about most of the characters in Dunkirk? Yes. Do people ever criticize Dunkirk because of this? No. This is basically what RO is to me, a film like Dunkirk in space.
Yeah its because the character in dunkirk is the event that took place
Keep in mind its a historical film that follows unimportant and random characters that experiences the real event
Unlike rogue one its following and focusing a group of very important characters that which cause the main events
Requiring the audience to invest in the characters unlike in dunkirk
You dont need to remember any named person in dunkirk, you only need to remember the moments, the things that are happening
You are comparing two completely differrent movies, you know isnt fair right?
Why dont you compare rogue one with something more similar like lord of the rings fellowship of the ring?
I felt a stronger emotional attachment to the protagonists of Dunkirk than I did Jyn and Andor. It helped that when we see the most of Dunkirk's protagonists, they're trying to help others. Andor was introduced by murdering someone who'd been trying to help him, losing sympathy for Andor quickly. It's made worse that the film doesn't even focus much on Andor's victim, he's just used to show what evil Andor is capable of committing for the Rebellion. Unlike in Dunkirk when in two narratives, one when a Frenchman steals a British soldier's identity to escape, and Cilian Murphy's character who tries to prevent a ship's crew from saving others like him. We've followed the Frenchman with the British soldier for a while when we found out he stole the identity, and it's likely he didn't kill the person he stole from, he just wants to survive. Whereas with C Murphy's character, we get the sense he is in the wrong and an obstacle for the ship's crew to overcome, especially when he commits a wrong against the well-meaning crew. With both characters, we can sympathize with their terror even if we don't agree with their actions, and with Murphy's character, we're meant to truly be hit with the weight of his actions, because he committed wrong against another man, whereas Andor's murder victim isn't focused on after getting blasted.
@@MegaKnight2012
Jyn ignores Cassian and runs out to save a kid (she cares about other people's lives) in the movie
Andor shot the person to save him from being killed by the empire
and in andor's television series we literally see to get his perspective
@@kafukwamekemeh The fact I had to be reminded Jynn saved a kid indicates how forgettable it was, and that's one moment. It's not her main passive character arc.
Andor was saving his own skin more than that man who'd risked his life. If it had been a Lucas Star Wars protagonist, he would have put his own life on the line, maybe even bumping into the imperial agents to distract long enough for the ally to escape. Andor's self-serving brutality indicates a severe lack of imagination. Stunning people is an option with blasters. Andor could have stunned him to stop panicking before getting him out.
We weren't discussing the show, Andor, we were discussing comparisons between the films, Rogue One and Dunkirk.
I only saw Andor's first two episodes, which were too boring to get invested, and once again, Andor's introductory scene made me uninterested in him as a character, given how they framed his killing people. Why can't he just stun people?
or maybe just watch the movie again if u missed those details instead of whining@@MegaKnight2012
Still perfered rogue one.
Your opinion doesn't matter. (Not serious)
I perfer too! Finally, a fellow perferer!
I slept during Rogue One
Every Star Wars Fan i know says the same: Rogue One was amazing, TFA was okay, TLJ was shit. The Sequels are horrible, the Star Wars Story movies were at least entertaining.
I think Rogue One is one of their top Star Wars movies. I definitely enjoyed it and that Vader scene at the end was awesome. But that is just my opinion.
My biggest problem with TFA was that it was an opportunity with a huge blank canvas to explore a rich universe, but they threw that away with making a big bad super death star. Really a disappointment that I cannot forgive.
I can not forgive Rogue One extremely boring characters and uninteresting story. I fell asleep during the movie. It was that much of a snore fest
I mean think of all the directions they could have gone with. A universe was in split in two and the force is unbalanced with the Sith lords dead. There could have been a real good story following new characters trying to make peace in a universe at unrest. The setting was there; people trying to fill in the void for the empire leaders and follow the path of the Sith vs people trying to bring back the Senate and make amends between warring groups. It is just sad that it wasn't taken to the next level that Star Was stands at.
Charles Baylor really you'd prefer to watch a retarded remake of episode four
I mean theres only so much you can do to a movie while trying to introduce new characters. Besides wtf do you want them to do. granted they could have not done a death star.
My biggest problem with TFA is that it's shit.
I was studying, but this is a video worthy of a break.
Awesome! Now back to studying!
Lessons from the Screenplay Well, if she's studying English or Film, she's going to be unemployed anyway! So it doesn't really matter!
I am studying Physics, Mr Robot. But it would be awesome if I were studying Film.
Funny I was also studyin for test tomorrow but this vid caught my attention
+Julia Silva you don't want to study film. it makes you jaded over your childhood movies
Rogue One is my favorite out of all the Star Wars movies. There's something different about it... more raw, almost. I kinda knew what was gonna happen in The Force Awakens (the only plot twist being Solo's death), because they practically used the same old recipe. We knew the heroes were gonna triumph, Rey was gonna find her power and everything was gonna be alright. But Rogue One truly made me believe it was a heroic story. I agree with what I've been reading in the comments, it's a much more mature film and it felt real. Personally, I felt the characters' sacrifice, their fear, their commitment. I connected with their motives. I'm not saying TFA is bad, it's just... familiar, conventional, but Rogue One took risks. And that's why I love it so much!
The cinematography is absolutely stunning and it's a nice, self contained story with a beginning and end. The rest of Star Wars just goes on and on.
If you enjoy Rogue One more than the other Star Wars movies, then you never really liked SW in the first place.
@@viniciusmotta13 bruh wtf lol
Well let's see.... this video is worth....
ONE QUARTER PORTION!
It's not enough to get that stolen Millennium Falcon back.
Wakka's Al Bhed Potion don't complain it was worth one eighth portion last week
Joop Vanhengelen Don't read my channel name
Joop Vanhengelen LOL yes, it makes you believe there are hard and fast rules to making an effective screenplay. We're told, show don't tell, but how do you account for the great characters in Jaws? What do we know of the motivation and backstory of Quint? Spielberg tells us via a monologue brilliantly written by John Milius. What is Hooper's arc? He pretty much stays the same throughout the film. And yet we love the characters!
Begun... the Fan wars has
San Guine Someone else used that joke, not sure if you're Stole it or not.
But still funny!
@@clark5317 Someone else used that joke, not sure if you're Stole it or not.
But still funny!
I disagree that the action vs reaction dichotomy has anything to do with how good a character is. Bilbo is deeply reactionary and he's among the best characters of all time.
I loved rogue one, but I agree the Jyn's character ark was... wonky, but it could easily have resolved by swapping around the scenes on Eadu and Jedha.
The main mission at the beginning of the story is that the rebellion heard that Galen is part of a superweapon program, and they want him to testify in front of the senate. However, they believe that he will resist (they don't know at this point of the sabotage), so they ask Jyn to come along to convince him to testify in exchange for her freedom. Same plot, etc. Jyn has nothing to lose, so she accepts.
After they crash on Eadu, Jyn convinces Cassian to rescue Galen instead of killing him, however in the attempt Galen is killed by the rebel strike force. Jyn comes to hate the Rebellion since they wanted to assassinate her father (and eventually killed him). However, news about the pilot arrives to the rebels, so the original deal stays the same, but this time Jyn is forced to come to Jedha. However, upon arrival she begins to see the brutality of the empire (beating people in the streets, destroying religious buildings, etc). Then she receives her fathers message (making her reaction more believable because she had seen her father die), but also witnesses the destruction of Jedha. She decides to carry out her fathers wish to destroy the Death star, as well as begin to understand the rebellions cause.
When she arrives at Yavin, the same thing happens. The leaders are too afraid of the deathstar to fight, so she forms the suicide squad etc etc etc, same ending. I feel that would have made Jyn's character way more believable and fleshed out than the "those were alliance bombs that killed him.... Lets kill the empire" change that felt really rough.
This sounds like a much more cohesive character arc
That would of make more sense and makes the whole movie better.
This is excellent. A bit of tweeking of the film we were given shows the great yet failed potiential for a well made emotional story Rogue One could have been.
JDMonster I think she needed more personality. An emotionless stone face doesn’t make for an entertaining character to watch
Thank you I’ve been trying to articulate this since seeing the movie! Much better arc.
The thing about Rogue One is that because Jyn doesn't make the big decisions, (to me at least,) it makes the movie feel less about a hero doing hero actions, but a regular person with regular person abilities. Rey is clearly the hero. Meanwhile, Jyn isn't making her choices to get involved in the Rebel Alliance, she's getting caught up in something out of her control, which is also why I find the Darth Vader scene at the end of Rogue One to be amazing. It demonstrates are more real (and slightly darker) side to the Star Wars Universe which shows how life is for the people that aren't the heroes, but are still doing important things. People who can't change the fate of the galaxy by themselves, but who can contribute to the change, piece by piece.
Ailuridaek3k「a0z.universe 」 👏👏
Ailuridaek3k「a0z.universe 」 completely agree
I fell asleep the first 2 times trying to watch tfa (I wasn't even sleepy) and the 3rd time I had to actually pay attention but I was bored the whole time. Rogue one kept me awake at the theaters
Ailuridaek3k「a0z.universe 」 Yes, but in any narrative, that makes her journey very passive and not one that inspires the audience.
You'd have to remember that in the OT, only Luke was Force sensitive, and we only learn about Leia's lineage in ROTJ.
But they still made active decisions in the fight that they committed themselves to fighting.
Jynn was more like a disinterested bystander, which makes her a bad example to follow for an audience. An actual person disinterested in the rebellion would really not involve themselves at all.
Also, she's not even a normal person. She is the daughter of a very important figure in the Empire, which makes her doubly passive via making her mission something she was just born with.
Given all those points, that makes for a VERY mediocre person, thus a very mediocre character.
I have to be honest here. I fell asleep watching Rogue one. The Darth Vader Scene was the best part of that snore fest and gave zero shits about any of the main characters dying. Well! I cared about the Robot lol
could you do Kaufman's eternal sunshine of the spotless mind? thanks!
On my list!
Luke Chen I really do believe that Kaufman is the greatest writer we have today
You definitely have to make a video about Kaufman's Adaptation. It'd be weird if a channel like this doesn't do one
Barney Os, kaufman is 100% the best screenwriter at least living, and top 5 of all time for me, he`s just incredible, i think that lessons from the screenplay should do a video about him more than one movie in specific, he has ESOTSM, adaptation, being john malkovich, anomalisa and now his new movie is coming out, chaos walking, he could wait until that movie is out to make a video in honor of him.
+Mauricio Soares hey random guy with the same avatar
I was 8 yrs old when my mother took my brother and I to see A New Hope, I've seen every SW film ever made at the Theater. SW has always been my favorite sci-fi saga. When I went to see Rogue One it felt like watching the original trilogy on film. TFA and TLJ to just didn't have that deep SW feel. Just my opinion...
I appreciate your videos, but I have to totally disagree on your statement that TFA “continues OT storylines”. As a lot of people already said, it completely nullifies them, as the main three characters are rebooted to what they were doing 30 years ago: Leia is still leading an underdog army, Han is still a smuggler who gets into trouble for not paying his debts and Luke once again is in a far place of the Galaxy and has no involvement in the conflict.
Javier Romo you got it right man!!
I disagree:
- Who knows what Leia was doing before the first order rose. According to backstory, we know that Leia and Han were living a peaceful life. Leia is still leading an underdog army: the battle of good and evil is never done. In their complacency, the good allowed the evil to rise up again, and with the power of Snoke and Kylo Ren they were able to create the first order. And also, what you're saying is that Leia is still a strong leader. Of course she would be.
- Han, broken up about the loss of his son to the dark side, goes back to doing the only thing he knows how to do. After their son's turn to the dark side, Han and Leia were devastated. Something like that would absolutely break up a marriage. Han's return to smuggling at its core is a tragic tale.
- Luke, due to plot points in the last jedi, is now far removed from the conflict after placing himself in self exile. He is so ashamed of his actions that he has committed himself to isolation. Again, this is a tragic place for his journey in tfa to begin.
I think you are confusing rebooted storylines with "thematic" storylines. These characters are in very different places than they were before, and they are very different people. Leia and Han at their core are still the same, but over the years Leia has become wiser. If Han's character arc feels nullified, than it's because his story is one of tragedy. And Luke is someone who for the first time, made a mistake so horrible that he can't forgive himself. He is at an all time low, a character arc that is beautifully developed in the last jedi.
Agreed. When I was watching TFA the 1st time I couldn't understand why the good guys were still a rebellion and not a new republic if they totally destroyed the empire in the 6th ep. You call that staying true to the OT? And the things they come up with later and with TLJ they killed it for me
Daniel Ramirez what's off-screen doesn't matter. You could apply the same logic to literally any movie. We don't know Edward's backstory before he met Bella, maybe he had an active part in killing Hitler. Doesn't change the fact that his character in the cut of twilight, that we get to see, is dull and one-dimensional.
That's because there wasn't anywhere to go after ROTJ but a new Empire.
The way I see it, Star Wars has always come from two sources- the Western pulp serial (Flash Gordon, cowboy westerns) and the Eastern samurai adventure (Hidden Fortress, Seven Samurai).
Western: Escapism, action heroes, cliffhangers
Eastern: Philosophy, zen masters, weighty despair
Force Awakens captured the fun heroes and pulp escapism.
Rogue One has the Force philosophy and heavy war themes.
They're halves to the Star Wars formula- the Originals successfully merged both.
So your mileage on the new films varies based on which half you prefer.
That is quite an interesting way to look at it.
Brilliant. That is a really good way to put it, and I think captures why I found RO far more compelling than TFA. I had fun watching TFA, but it was "just" fun, the way that Saturday morning cartoons are fun. The story falls apart pretty quickly if you analyze it closely.
On the other hand, despite the lack of character development in RO, the movie had great character interactions, moral quandaries, ethical issues, and emotional beats. I felt far more invested in RO because I thought it was demanding more of me, asking me to really pay attention and think. Each character, even Krennic, has an arc, but a subtle one.
What's really great though is that Star Wars is big enough to encompass both types of films. I'm glad Lucasfilm isn't shying away from the philosophy and mysticism of the OT (something that worried me about TFA).
TheStanishStudios and Dom beautifully put.
MVP
Oooooh now it makes sense!
I rebel is a terrible line, i am glad that they removed it
It does show that they did change her character though. Like the video stated, both lines he showed, although not very good, does show that she enjoys rebelling. Granted, while I liked Jyn the way she was in the movie, and I don't know that Felicity Jones could pull of a rebellious criminal, I would have loved to see her being that way as well.
What are we? Some kind of Rogue One: A Star Wars Story?
crapvile there was loads of reshoots. In the original she wanted to be part of the rebellion. If i remember correctly
Movie explains it pretty well...she spent many a years living with Saw....a rebel extremist. She loses both father figures in her life, who both died to fight the empire. She redeems them both by dieing for the plans--eventually bringing victory for the rebellion and redemption for both her father figures. Does that seem sound familiar? Rogue One was brilliant.
Lord Fran explain yourself
I thought we saw Jyn making choices through the first half. Just a few...
- She makes a choice to attempt to flee during her rescue attempt (tells us she doesn't see it as a rescue).
- Leaving the rebel base, she finds and keeps a blaster (she's someone who wants to be prepared and expects the worst).
- On Jedha, in the ambush fight, she ignores Cassian and runs out to save a kid (she cares about other people's lives).
- And it's her running out that puts her in danger from the grenade, that forces Cassian to shoot the rebel, which in turn gets them captured by the Rebels and puts Cassian in place to find Bohdi.
In fact, we do see her pretending to be passive and uninterested, but by her actions and choices, revealing that she's active and engaged... which helps explain why she can inspire and lead the team.
Another thing is that in TFA, we get bombarded with the backstory of Rey, but we get absolutely no information at all on how the "empire" is still around in the first order. The empire was supposed to be in the past. Where did it come from? It breaks any sense of continuity with the story line of the first movies. Why is Han Solo still a lowly smuggler in his old age, forty years later?
The first time I watched TFA I enjoyed it. The next time I seen it, it was kind of annoying seeing how similar it was to the first Star Wars movies, blowing up the death star and all that. I kind of wanted to see a new story, not a rehash of the old plot line. I wanted to see some originality, like the first Star Wars movie was. Now thinking back on it, it was also annoying seeing Rey start up the Millenium Falcon in a junk yard, and then fly it like nobody ever could before. She does everything flawlessly without any training or experience or even knowledge. Since the second movie came out, it now takes out the suspense of the movie, knowing she is going to win every time. I much prefer to see a flawed and less than perfect character facing a real danger of failing against insurmountable odds. Rogue One was a much better movie, with more likeable characters.
@Sir Handel Yes. Knowing the history of JJ Abrams, I have no desire to watch the new movie.
Yes, I feel like this video is a product of decision-based evidence making. At least where Rogue One is concerned. I'm starting to understand, though, why some people disagree, and what kind of people they are.
I like the video very much and hope to discuss it with the fans in the comments.
*Scrolls through*
ABORT ABORT!!!
"Sector is clear"
*Scrolls through comments*
"NOT CLEAR! NOT CLEAR!"
Jia En Khoo That changes plans.
Jia En Khoo ARE WE NOT GOOD ENOUGH FOR YOU, KIM CHONG UN?!?!
Jia En Khoo your comment reminds me of Dustin (stranger things)
IT'S A TRAP!!!
Are you kidding me? The trip to Eadu was super important, it built Cassian a bunch, showed us how much Jyn really cares about her dad, and in the end, connected Jyn and Cassian
Orly? How did it "connect" Jyn and Cassian? All they did there before leaving was Jyn's angrily accusing Cassian and Cassian shooting her quip down when he pretty much said something along the lines of "tough luck, Rebels get dirty when they need to, naive child." How is this supposed to make Jyn believe so strongly in the Rebel cause? If anything she should be so angry she should be even more uncooperative.
Besides, there was no need to go to Scarif anyway. If the rebels could read the plans and boil down the fighting plan down to "go to these coordinates and drop bombs" which was so simple Xwing pilots could understand what to do in a very short urgent meeting before Battle of Yavin. Couldn't Jyn's father just write a short memo and pass it on? :P
@pyropulse Eventually, people on the internet are going to have to learn what "objectively" means.
How is "showing how much Jyn really cares about her dad" of any importance? It doesn't affect the story or her character at all.
I can't agree that Jyn being a "passive" protagonist is a bad thing. It's not that she's simply indifferent to her environment, rather she's one individual in the middle of a huge, and complex, conflict, involving, presumably, trillions of people. I'd say that makes her a lot more relatable, as well as making the setting feel bigger and more dangerous.
I would argue that when we see Jyn being forced to help the rebellion, this isn't about Jyn as much as it is about the rebellion and how they work. One of my favorite things about Rogue One is how it shows that the Rebellion doesn't operate very differently from the Empire. The rebellion imprisoned her and forced her to work for them, not too different from the Empire forcing her father to work for them. And Cassian's character really expands on that idea too. This idea goes hand in hand with The Last Jedi and I think it really exposes the faults that perpetuate the war.
I think the first half of Rogue One is intentional. We have passive and meaningless actions convey a sense of hopelessness... until they make a choice to be hopeful and take positive control over their lives. We are also rewarded pacing wise with this. The second half is much more fast-paced and filled with what we want from Star Wars... I.E. the wars part. I think instead of looking at show vs tell as a good/bad thing you should look at them as tools in a toolbox. They should be applied for specific reasons. Basically, we should ask what does it do to service the narrative.
I think the problem is that we never do feel hopeless anyway, or at least I didn’t.
Finally a video that talks objectively about the new Star Wars movie without being so extremist with "they're the worst thing in the world" or "they're the fucking best wow so perfect"
Which order should I watch the older star war movies ? I remember watching only clone wars.
Varun Govind Watch 4, 5, 6, 1, 2, 3. Just make sure to cut 4, 5 and 6 some slack as the Visuals aren't as great as the newer ones.
Benjamin George Thanks, Will get on with it this weekend.
jesudarklink h
"Only a Sith deals in absolutes"
To quote the nostalgia critic's review of rouge one:
"Remember how the force awakens was an awesome movie with an ok climax? Well, Rogue one is an ok movie with an awesome climax"
MisterChips 2 out of 3 vs 1 out of 3. TFA or me
ask any women. and she'll say. she rather have ok sex and an awesome climax over awesome sex but an ok climax
tfa was a meh movie with an awful climax
MisterChips so true, for me, what irked me the most of TFA, was the climax
It was not as exciting as I thought it would be
I thought the saber fights were going to be more prequel like, I thought the climax was going to be like a modern action movie but no
The movie's climax suffered so much because it felt old, it didnt feel modern in style
I really liked the climax i thought the saber duel was incredibly emotional and brutal for the characters respective skills. I wasnt anticipating prequel fights since my guess is Kylo isnt as well trained/experienced as prequel jedis.
The whole point of Jyn being a passive character at the start of the film is to show her development throughout the movie. It's so at the end they can show us her decision to fight for the rebellion, and eventually give her life for it. At least she has some sort of development in the movie. Rey isn't developed at all. She's already the character who can do everything.
Oh boy.. you're about to have a lot of "constructive criticism."
Bless.
Rob N, ROFLOL!
I actually don't think Rey is a flawless character - there were a few moments in the film where I saw that the she was overconfident in her abilities and that that overconfidence actually backfires on her.
When Han hands her the blaster and asks if she knows how to use it she responds with a really cocky attitude, like she's trying to show off how tough she is, and says "yeah, you pull the trigger". Han's response felt humbling to her, he pushed her hand down gently and said "There's more to it than that. You still have a lot to learn." The look on Rey's face in that moment was (to me) one of realization, that she isn't as strong as she thinks she is.
There was also the moment on Han's larger ship where she resets the fuses in attempt to lock the rival gangs in their corridors - away from Han and Chewie (as well as BB8) - but she messes up and hits the wrong fuses, releasing the Rathtars. The way I saw this moment was that Rey was trying to show off how good she was to Finn and Han and didn't pay enough attention to the fuses she was supposed to be resetting, and that's how she made the mistake. She felt she knew the technology perfectly because of her life as a scavenger and wanted to show off - not realizing that working with obsolete and dead technology isn't quite the same as working with properly functioning hardware. Her mistake almost got everyone killed.
Aboard the Falcon she and Finn are trying to identify who Han Solo was, Finn remarks about Han's role as a War Hero and General while Rey identifies with Han's smuggling career. The recognition is a fun moment for the audience since we already know that both stories are true - but they don't (yet). But there was a really short exchange between Rey and Fin in that moment that also showed off Rey's arrogance - she doesn't calmly or curiously remark that she simply heard he was a only a famous smuggler and didn't know what he was referring to by "War Hero". No, instead she turns her head and snaps Finn with a bit of irritation and a condescending attitude saying "No, the smuggler!" - she was clearly annoyed that Finn didn't recognize Han for the same reason that she did and it wasn't until Han mentioned Luke that Finn got to affirm his suspicion that Han was "the Han Solo who fought in the Rebellion", to Rey's obvious surprise and silence.
Overall I saw Rey as very talented and experienced, through her rough upbringing, but overconfident in her abilities due to the fact that she had never truly met other talented or skilled individuals before. So, there ya go - a character flaw!
just me at home
Great analysis! Hopefully that can shut up all the sexist, biased haters that claim to be Star Wars fans!
Thanks, I'm glad you liked my analysis. :)
But (at least on this video) I don't think sexism or bias played a role in the criticisms against Rey. Her flaws are subtle and frankly easy to miss or explain away. I think her character was designed to be a reflection of how talented people view themselves - even if that view is slightly distorted from reality. So it's easy to get mad at her for simply being too perfect.
just me at home Excellent character sketch right here. The people screaming "Mary Sue this and Mary Sue that" aren't just sexist, but they mistake powers for character traits. Rey's pride is her flaw. And pride is a biggie.
Polyhymnia
Exactly! 👍🏻
Finn goes from horrified by violence to cheering the murder of countless storm troopers in the span of about 5 minutes. Talk about poor character development. I like him as a character and he raises a lot of interesting questions, but that cognitive dissonance was really off-putting.
I agree with the show don't tell approach, but I disagree that protagonists have to be active. The fact that Jyn started off as passive is exactly what made her compelling. If anything, it's more true to life as your average individual needs to be nudged into action. A big part of what hurts The Force Awakens are all the contrivances. The movie is littered with characters who happen to be at the right place, at the right time and conveniently make critical decisions. In Rogue One, the protagonists are dragged into an existing situation and led to their eventual choice. That's not to say the execution is perfect, but simply that it's more convincing than anything that happens in Force Awakens.
bingo
finns issue was with the morality of the first order. he saw that the people the stormtroopers were killing were peaceful. he seems to be ok with fighting if it is necessary but dislikes killing for no reason
Also Finn was not in any danger on Jakku as FN-2187 or whatever. He was fighting for his life while flying with Poe. Adrenaline and emotions work differently then.
nathaniel roberts The catalyst for Finn's desertion was clearly shown to be the brutal death of another stormtrooper. Thus, him cheering the brutal deaths of countless more Stormtroopers later in the film is a massive problem.
Fools. You know why he's really horrified ?
Because the guy who died was a close friend... who got shot in the left side of his chest but BLEED FROM HIS RIGHT HAND !!!! You really can't imagine how confusing it is for a stormtrooper.
I can only imagine how much harsher the comments would have been if you had used The Last Jedi instead of The Force Awakens.
And while I can appreciate this analysis and The Force Awakens does have a few moments I liked, Rogue One was a way more satisfying movie to me
I agree. Also TLJ is such a mess that I don’t know how one could analyze it. TFA is a rehash but at least it was somewhat promising
@Tom Ffrench Solid? It was shit
@Tom Ffrench HAHAHAHH
Flash forward a couple years, and now imagine if it was The Rise of Skywalker instead...
@Tom Ffrench rogue one is a great movie but the TLJ is awful in literally every way.
Really? I think Jyn has an amazingly better introduction. Her mother dies, her father was "captured", she was adopted by an extremist rebel, felt betrayed by her adopter, became some kind of criminal (all she learned to do in her infancy), was brought back to the rebelion and to both "fathers", to understand their failures, forgive them, the alliance, and finish their job (pretty bravely). She is a rebel, she has some past issues, felt abandoned, she is brave, she loves her family, she doesn't trust blindly on anyone or anything...
Rey is a scanvenger and she is "good", aparently, or the film wants us to buy this (but she kind of steal the captured droid, but thinks about selling it later, and hits Finn with no evidence of he doing nothing wrong). She waits for her family, and is the most OP force user ever. We know nothing else about her, she has 0 personality. All the characters relationships on the movie are forced. The most forced being Kyle Ren saying Rey fells han solo is the father she never had... She had like, only some minutes with him, they barely talked... wtf? And Leia Hugging her? Ignoring chewbaca? A girl she dont even know? What?
Rogue one has problems, but ep 7 is crazy dumb...
Rey is like an RPG character of a bad player... Just skills, powers and some superficial background, but no deeper personality, relations, dreams, flaws...
Finn is the same... He is "the good storm trooper"... because of reasons.. and nothing more. This movie sucked. Rogue one is the best by far, from the new ones.
This right here... well said and ty
pyropulse But the whole opening on Rey shows us everything about her character on Jakku. I’m very confused how you believe it shows absolutely nothing. He explains it in the video.
Agreed, Rey’s lack of effort in her growth make her character feel superficial, and TFA feels more like video game than a movie
Which is why it is the only Disney Star Wars film that deserves to be canon. Gareth did a great job.
@Tom Ffrench yep I couldn’t get invested in any character in rouge one not even Jyn the third act is probably the one part of the film I would rewatch but yeah the biggest reason I haven’t brought myself to rewatch rouge one
id like to bring out jin's passivity in another way: by being passive most of the time, the few times she takes action (saving a child during combat, her ultimate decision to fulfill her fathers plans, etc.) stand out way more and are shown as very important
Would love a look at Memento
Yes!
Chris Nolan is one director who could benefit from the adage "Show, don't tell"; especially with his Batman movies. They suffer from a overabundance of exposition in the dialogue, characters constantly explaining the plot and their motivations, instead of allowing the actors to convey their emotions between the lines. The pacing in those movies suffers too as they are comprised of rushed, brief scenes much like the beginning of Rogue One
God, Memento was great.
Never understood that complaint. There's no way any movie in TDK trilogy has more exposition than Inception (though it's fun, interesting exposition)
This is the difference between a character driven story and a plot driven story. And both can be executed either well or poorly. The best movies are the ones that balance both aspects and are executed very well.
A character driven tale will make you concerned about the well being of the protagonist and a plot driven tale will make you curious about what happens next. Both of these techniques have one end goal in mind which is to get you, the audience, to care about what you are watching or to at least be interested in it.
Good character driven story:
There will be blood
Good plot driven story:
Inception
Bad character driven story:
Daredevil
Bad plot driven story:
Now you see me
Good balanced story:
The count of monte cristo
I would consider Rogue One to be a pretty good plot driven movie while The Force Awakens is a character driven movie that needs improvement. Rey might be an active character, but she is neither believable nor likable
So basically i agree with all the points this video made except that i think Rogue One is still the better film despite all that. The flaws in Force Awakens are much less forgivable compared to Rogue One's
Agreed
You said daredevil. The movie or show. Because the show is masterpiece.
@Tom Ffrench I am pretty sure almost every heist movie doesn't pull off the heist until the last half hour. The heist is almost always the climax of the film, so it obviously will happen towards the end of the film.
I'm in the intro. This is the high point in my life.
:P Thanks for the suggestion ;)
First of all, great summary of both protagonists character arcs!
Secondly, I would say the passivity of the entire main cast of RO is delibirate because the audience have to watch them all die for the cause. The movie in itself is a study of the physical manifestation of hope, so scenes of the Bor Gullet and the sequense at Eadu are character building as more and more of the cast put their hope in Jyn. Through Bor Gullet we discover the irrational paranoia of G Saw, whom in the end gives up his brand of rebellion in favour of Jyns, and we see Cassian starts trusting Jyn as he directly disobeys the orders of the alliance to kill Galen.
I can agree, the sequence at Eadu is way to long for its purpose, as our main cast has no meaningful impact on the outcome, but it doesn't invalidate it. We learned more about Cassians hopefulness through his resolve to trust - trust Jyn, and it is worth the wait.
Personally I loved both RO and TFA, and for completely different reasons. An active protagonist was right for TFA, Rey was our surrogate, our motivation. Jyn was a cog in a somber universe, and others putting their hope in Jyn throughout the movie IS the plot, so I have to disagree with you; I think the first half of RO was great! :)
This video completely overlooked some of the huge glaring structural issues in TFA. You say that Rey is an active protagonist from the outset in TFA. This is true but what’s lacking here is context as is the case overall in TFA. Why does Rey help BB8 and agree to take him to the resistance base? In the OT and R1 Luke and Jynn are given motivation for risking their lives to fight the Empire. What’s Rey’s motivation? That she’s just a nice person? Did Rey even know what the First Order are before the events of the film? Also, I disagree with the claim that a protagonist’s actions have to be motivated by their own free will rather than necessity. By that logic Rey is a better character than Luke because he only started his Hero’s Journey because there was nothing left for him on Tatooine once his aunt and uncle were killed. Frankly, I’d say that having necessity drive a protagonists actions is a lot more dramatic. I don’t understand the rationale behind your claim.
“She considers androids sentient individuals” - Where is that said in the film? None of the characters in Eps1-6 every expressed this attitude towards Droids(e.g. Leia isn’t that shocked when she see’s 3p0 in pieces and uncle Owen asks Luke to erase R2’s memory). Added to this Rey grew up in an isolated settlement full of scrap dealers. Where would she have gotten this attitude from? This is what I mean by lack of context.
“Rey "joining the resistance" in my opinion is Rey being adventurous and romantic, I'd say. In TFA, the resistance has apparently become some kind of myth about heroes fighting the Empire.” - Here again is the lack of context though. How would Rey even know about the tiny resistance when she doesn’t appear to have any social relationships. Luke had a family and friends so him knowing about the rebellion made sense, but who would have even told Rey? Also, there’s a difference between having an adventurous spirit and actually be willing to kill and die for a cause.
Mariela A.@ “Presumably she has had social interactions in her life” - Based on what though? With Anakin and Luke we didn’t have to presume. We saw/heard about the relationships they had on Tatooine. Nothing we see or hear in TFA suggests that Rey has any positive relationships on Jakku. The only people we see her talk to are Teedo and Unker Plott and those are both hostile/impersonal interactions.
“Causes find adepts among lonely young people all the time” - Generally those young people have some kind of personal stake in those causes though, especially if they involve killing/being killed. There are also people who join causes like that because they’re just mentally disturbed. I don’t think Rey’s supposed to be mentally disturbed.
Mariela A. You're full of shit and have failed to convincingly argued against any of his points.
DeCipher I'm in agreement with you, but you forget Anakin and Luke both saw droids as sentient beings. It separated them from the rest. Anakin's best friend was R2, as was Luke's. In fact, Anakin risks his life for R2 in The Clone Wars, against the advice of Obi-Wan.
Necessity driving a character's actions is good and does help put their previous beleifs to a test but in the start of a movie it can be interesting to see what a protagonist does with an empty plate. Although Luke didnt have any other choice in the end of leaving with Ben. Not saying Luke is a shitty character btw but we have 3 movies that fleshes out his struggles very well. Although i think that after Luke leaves Tatooine in 4 that he doesnt really face that difficult of hardships until 5.
Personality I think Rogue One was a much better movie. It was meant to be a Classic War Movie. I knew enough of their motivations to care for the characters. Where as TFA, I couldn't get behind any of the new characters. Granted I have been an Imperial since 1977, I still could not get behind any of the First Order characters. Something in The Force Awakens got displaced for me, it felt more like I was watching a TV Sci-fi show. The Last Jedi, destroyed what little I liked in the first one. I can't put a finger on those two movies as to why they both seem broken and missing. Rogue One though I really did enjoy.
I agree with many of your points, but Jyn wasn't supposed to be an active character. She's one person. Not one of the Rogue One team members is anything more than a human (or droid). She seems powerless because she is. Because she's meant to be.
+Bryant's Sunday Brunch
speak for yourself
+Bryant's Sunday Brunch
you said "we didn't", as if you were speaking for everyone. thus, my response: "speak for yourself"
It was a statement. He was stating you were speaking for yourself and that others may have other opinions. It's a common expression. No idea why you didn't understand.
In general the "show, don't tell" is the better way to do it. However, it can also be something of a cliche... and Rogue One's choice to make her more passive is both deliberate and vastly more successful, both matching the tone of the film. "Telling" her grown up history worked marvellously - and after showing her young history - it creates a much deeper character in a much more interesting way. The "show" of Rey is much like everything else in Force Awakens: cliched, boring and lacking any kind of believable depth. And believe me, Rey is still the best thing about Force Awakens by a mile. I've been able to rewatch every star wars film over the canon and enjoy them despite the many flaws and how many times I've seen them, but with Force Awakens - I cannot even make it through the movie already as it's just fucking embarrassingly bad. It does "Look" great, but that doesn't compensate for how terrible the screenplay is. Even the prequel trilogy - with all it's tacky flaws, bad acting and cringy lines - holds up better as at least the overall plot idea is strong. Fuck Force Awakens so much.... and although the guy making this video has clearly paid great attention in film writing school - I've never heard of him and probably never will as he doesn't seem to have a creative streak in his body.... the textbook Aristotle "reader" completely devoid of "quality"!
Rogue One was as fucking awesome as TFA was piss-poor.
Can you do a video on Arrival?
JAXmudge I second this.
Listen to this man!! he is wise (or she, if given the case :D )
Why, yes I can.
Yeah boy! Arrival's one of my three favorite movies.
I did like Arrival, but unfortunately, I saw it right after reading the short story it was based on. Some of the changes that the film made were just completely unnecessary.
My review as you go. I found this video gave me much to think about, which is always a good thing. 2m22s I completely understood who Jyn Erso was. She is a prisoner of the Empire, and I know the Empire is bad. You can hear screaming the cells nearby. The connection from child who saw her parents murdered to a person who hates the Empire enough to get arrested is clearly established without the need for added scene.
The comment that she gives no reaction in the briefing on Yavin 4 seems wrong to me. If you are not reacting to what the others around you are doing, THAT is your reaction. She is not oblivious - you can see her looking from speaker to speaker. Surrounded by people who are obviously heavily armed and are sitting in judgement of her she shows neither anxiety not fear. That tells me something about her as well. Dialogue to indicate she is not bowed by authority would be superfluous as this point. I don't need her to TELL me she as rebel. It is shown to me very clearly.
In contrast, while the sequence with Ray clearly establishes who she is now, it doesn't give me anything about how she got here. So I would say I connected with Jynn more than Ray in those opening sequences. Had they used the dream sequence trick from R1, the part we see later in the movie with the Jedi vision, I would have had some better grounding for her character. It's now how much you show but what you show that is important.
5:34
Again, I question the reasoning here that Jynn is not an active protagonist. First, she is not entirely without action. The second she is freed on the prison transport her first ACTION is to smash the guy helping her in the face and try to escape. Again, his is a powerful statement that she is not some wilting lily but a dangerous person.
Second, you cannot have a non-choice choice. You always have a choice. See the Buffy 2nd season episode "Lie to me."
I question the reasoning about the capture on Jedda as well. They are captured because Jynn makes a choice to intervene in the battle, and act to save civilian lives. Saying she doesn't take action here is like saying Superman is not active when he saves Lois Lane from the helicopter crash in the Richard Donner Superman movie. He didn't cause the crash, so he is not active but
reactive? No, I don't agree at all. Especially since a fundamental principle of acting is that is also about reacting. You cannot act in isolation - you nee something to act against or react to.
9:22
Another assessment I disagree with is regarding the trip to Edu. This IS necessary and important for Jynn's character arc, and therefore helps move the plot. Through her fathers death [which we have to see, not be told about] she is motivated to abandon her position as loner and actually do something for the rebellion.
Another point of the Edu mission - It establishes in the briefing immediately after on Yavin that this is an drastic escalation of
hostilities between Rebel Alliance and Empire. Darth Vader even comments on this on Mustafa. It is also a part of the ongoing side story of the power struggle between Tarkin and Krennic.
Had Jynns father lived he could have delivered the information in person to the Alliance. As it is the lack of concrete proof is what causes them do delay, allowing Jynn to become proactive.
Saying that her comments to Kassian are without real purpose also ignores the power of his own story arc which is happening in parallel to hers. Jynn is a conflicted hero who needs to make a choice about who she supports, or does she simply remain idle. Meanwhile he is growing to question his own choices and who he is?
Finally, I certainly felt an emotional connection to the characters in the final act as they drop one by one. Even the mostly nameless troopers on the beach getting gunned down felt like real people to me, in a way that, for example, the rebel soldiers who fell in the battle of Hoth did not. The deaths of the various characters in R1 was, for me, every bit as powerful as the death of Han Solo, a character with much more history invested in him.
Clearly you have given this much thought. I don't know if I agree with everything but you did a good job of explaining your thoughts with clarity and interesting perspective. I think for me, and I am not an expert, I did not feel any emotional reaction to the deaths at the end of R!. It was clear it was a necessary part to lead in to episode - IV and it did delight me that it really set up the story for that episode.
Completely agree with you. I just don't see the blank Jynn that Michael sees.
brettc001 applause sir!!
Bryant Nelson if you felt rogue one had too many winks to the past what was TFA in your opinion in that regard FYI I hated it and I love SW.
brettc001 Perfectly stated. Agree completely with you. 👍
I stood in line for "Star Wars" when I was 6 in 1977, and I loved Rogue One! And you can go right into the first film seamlessly! I had hopes for The Force Awakens but it forgot too much and changed even more and not for the better. Don't ask me about The Last Jedi..............just no lol
alvin and the chipmunks road chip analysis when
Force Awakens Flaw #1. When Death Star 1 is destroyed ... the empire builds another death star. Isn't that just stupid. I mean won't you use your brains to design something else? perhaps learn from your failures?
Abhishek Srivastava I remember seeing something that said the empire doesn't actually need the Death Star to destroy planets. Several Super star destroyers would be able to make the planet inhabitable (while not blowing the planet to pieces)
You'd be correct in that. Even the Imperial-class Star Destroyers were more than capable of Base Delta Zero operations. An Executor would speed it up.
This annoys me with a lot of sequels, the need to take whatever cool shit they had in the first one and somehow top that. The lazy way of doing that is to just take the old gimmick and dial it up to 11 -- like having a new gang of space nazis building a BIGGER, BADDER Death Star! That can kill not only a whole planet, but a whole system at once! And in such a throwaway fashion, as well: we never hear about it again, whereas destroying Alderaan in A New Hope was treated as a big freaking deal as it should be.
Actually, it's the third death star. Apparently the Empire has something to compensate for, it is pretty much an obsession at this point...
>Full fledged fleet...
Yea don't get your hopes up. There will be a deus ex mashinima to stop said fleet. And as we saw in the trailer, the space fights will go back to being Small rebellion ships fighting huge ass star destroyers and finding convenient ways to overcome it.
Remember that republic? That new republic? The government that formed anf flourished next to the new order, built its own military and fleet and could have had a major impact on the story or even act as a whole other plot device like the Senate did in the prequels?
Well the destroyed all possibilities, explenations and exciting action in less than one minute by literally blowing every single person related to it up. This was the last straw for me personally.
Even the prequels build tension better than that. At least the republic got dismantled from the inside in a political thriller fashion. Imagine Palpentine instead of building this elaborate plan with plageius just builds a death star and blows up Corcuscant. It would be absolute Bullshit, and is IS absolute bullshit in the 7th star wars.
TFA was nothing more than a rehash of Episode 4 but not executed as well. R1, while having some flaws in the first act with pacing and gathering interest in the characters, at least told a more original, darker, grittier and a bit more realistic story and developed a group of characters enough with a common goal that you could get behind and cheer for. R1 is about hope even in the darkest of times, it's about not giving in nor standing by, but sacrificing yourself for something greater, for a better future for all.
TFA had so many poorly explained characters and copy paste plot I don't really understand why people would like it more.
If TFA was a reboot or it's own thing you might have a point, but it wasn't. It was Episode 7 of a saga, it should logically follow the events of previous episodes, not rehash them. Telling the same story again is bad writing. I don't really think that TFA trying to get old fans happy with Starwars again should be an excuse to rehash the same story. And yeah I think even within that story TFA had some pretty poorly developed/explained characters, such as Finn and Rey.
Also I didn't say R1 was only good because it's original, I also pointed out its theme of hope and sacrifice in the darkest of times, and banding together for the common goal of freedom against oppression, which I thought was executed pretty well.
@Connor Devitt , it makes it a crap. It is horrible and thus remakes are generally horrible. This is plagiarized shit. It is OK, Hollywood makes a lot of shit and FA is just another one.
Who cares that they showed us 6 minutes of her (reys) life... in the end we still knew almost nothing about her .... and two films in, we still know nothing much. Jynn was a more complete and interesting character IMO.
"The Fault in Our Star......Wars"
*badum tsss*
#Pun
Punny, indeed.
F*cking hated Force Awakens.Loved Rogue One
Did you see Moonlight? I thought that film had a lot of great things you could breakdown
Yes! I really liked it. That's one I've been thinking about for sure.
Ricky Rushton plot twist: he ends up making an analysis on La La Land
lol
Lessons from the Screenplay I thought the acting was really good, but the story itself wasn't.
Lessons from the Screenplay Moonlight is a bittersweet thing for me, I understand why people liked it (It's an "all the Oscars" movie as Screen Junkies pointed out), but the pacing is an atrocity imo in that movie, hence the direction has a lot of problems as well.
Rogue One wipes the floor with The Force Awakens
The Rogue One trip to Eadu had a lot of consequences.
Galen Erso was killed, that was the main reason for the rebels going there.
It shows that good/bad isn't black and white, even the rebels have a dark side.
They stole shuttle SW0608, a ship which would become crucial to the story.
I mean... I liked both movies, I don't get all the hate even though I can see the flaws and understand them
Hawkeye Plerce Exactly, I really loved both but I just dont understand all the shit being thrown onto Rogue One and The Force Awakens especially.
I really liked Force Awakens, but Rouge One wasn't as good for me. Neither are perfect, but I can't call them bad. Still, you're opinion, and I respect that. See comment section, that wasn't so hard know was it?
Not disagreeing, but ... .still Rouge One was the only decent SW movie recently.
It was the best out of all of them, because it doesnt really tarnish old Stat Wars but still felt familiar and new enough to be a worthwhile addition. The others definitely didn't, besides maybe Solo a little.
A lot of people don’t know how to spell rogue
Yep. I know the whole force and jeddi fantisy is a big part of Star Wars but I like it when it's more realistic and we sea the non force wielders and space navy battles.
it was a waste of my money and time
TheOmegazerox, you explained it better than I ever could. Thanks!
Rogue One was the best Star-Wars movie outside the original Trilogy, period.
To you, not to me. Rogue One is just for edgy teenagers.
I appreciate that your criticism of Rey wasn't that she's a Mary Sue.
Absolutely I did too. I don't think her being extraordinarily gifted is a problem with her character. Heroes having special talents is a well-established trope and "Mary Sue" is a construction to criticize specifically female characters for daring to be as unrealistically capable and plot-important as men.
Rey could have been better written. Perhaps this problem will be addressed in The Last Jedi, perhaps we will see aspects of her personality holding her back. For now, I think she's definitely more likable and entertaining than Jyn, and I don't begrudge her being as talented with flying ships and using the Force as she is.
Does reality hurt?
Thank you. I get why people say that, but I think it's missing the mark as a critique.
It's a weak and lazy criticism that salty people throw around. It's just an easy buzzword to dismiss people's arguments with no thought or effort put into a proper argument against the character.
Rey is perfect and has no flaws. Flies the Falcon better than Han with no experience, defeats Luke's AND Snoke's pupil after just realizing she had the Force. There are dozens of examples. Care to explain how she pilots the Falcon better than Han and knows all the mechanics? Even Luke didn't..."what's that flashing!?!"
Great video! :) Personally, I think it is perfectly fine to have a passive protagonist and I believe that Rogue One is much better than The Force Awakens and ESPECIALLY The Last Jedi. We all knew the Squad of Rogue One had to die and I would have been mad if they hadn't, honestly. That's why the setup of these characters is perfectly fine, I think. In this movie, the rebels feel like soldiers and they know they are on a suicide mission. And to be honest, no moment in the new trilogy feels as tense as the last battle in Rogue One, because you know that the characters can actually die and the stakes are as high as never before. I can't remember one intense moment in the new trilogy. It's all chaotic MARVEL-esque filmmaking and while I enjoyed The Force Awakens in the cinema - exactly for reasons such as the great introduction of Rey and scenes like Poe and FInn's escape - I honestly hated The Last Jedi. I watched all of those movies with my brother who is very picky about movies and - like me - doesn't consider the majority of Hollywood productions particularly good and the reactions during the movie were like this: Rogue One - Smiling, getting excited | TFA - Mostly bored, a few laughs | TLJ - Facepalming and looking at each other with disbelief. Rogue One did an amazing job at being a standalone movie, perfectly capturing the aesthetics of Star Wars and engaging the viewer 100% in what is happening and the fact that you know how things must end only made everything better IMO. :)
I agree, we already knew they were going to die, and that the Rebels were going to get the plans, but it's the show and thought of them fighting until death that gave the bit, you know that they know they probably would not make it and they gave the ultimate sacrifice to give the Rebellion a fighting chance.
Just so you know, I didn't know they were all going to die. I didn't even realize they were all going to die until about five minutes before the end of the movie.
Heavy losses? Sure. Suicide mission? Nope. Didn't see it coming.
I couldn't agree more, in Rouge one it is about the team and their sacrifice.
It just wouldn't make sense for the caracters to be in control of the story and loosing it, thing of characters having always solutions and are in a certain amount of control. You then need some deux ex machina destroying their options. Hugely disappointing. Instead Rouge one starts at depression and without control and builds up to "a new hope". If you get it , that is , of course.
The guy making this video, probably thought there is only one recipe for screenplay.
Here is the thing: Wich scene should be replaced? Jin rescueing herself, becoming independing from the team?? Ok, wich scene to replace next to show why she integrates into a team? And so on.
Better to have a good story then the perfect hero. I like the female lead in tfa more, but the movie itself is shitty.
Original, creative things are fuel for EVERYTHING.
Copies are copies, there are thousands of them, nobody counts them.
People shit on prequels, but even 12 years later people remember everything from them, even haters. The same way people will remember Rogue One, at least for Vader scene.
But who will remember new trilogy 10 years later? And for what? For being a rehash with a ton of fanservice? Episode 7 will disappear in history, and if 8-9 will follow same path, they are gonna die too. There are too many copies of Star Wars, to remember another one.
Daniel Kiran My thoughts exacly. People seeing episode IV poster will ask "whats's that movie about?" and you would tell that it's about Han, Leia and Luke fighting with Empire, blah, blah. But if someone asks about episode VII, all you could say is "it's like an episode IV but worse".
The new trilogy isn't even done yet, we're 1/3 of the way through. There may still be great things to come. That being said, I'd take Rogue One over TFA any day.
Steven Irizarry, compared to main trio of TFA (and new trilogy) both Anakin and Jar-Jar are developed, deep characters.
1. Garbage collector, that for some reason is amazing at everything and can beat sith lord.
2. Stormtrooper, that was training his whole life, but still cant fight for shit and is a total coward.
3. 30 years old Vader fanboy, that is throwing a tantrum for every fail, and didnt even had much reasons to go full dark side.
And we have to watch those 3 idiots for the whole trilogy....
@Dantess: 2/3rd now, things got much much worse rather than better. IX is set up to be a trainwreck. No "great things" ever came. Just even worse drivel, wow.
But Rogue One was way more entertaining than TFA.
No, it's not
Look at the rest of the comments. Same reason.
Entertaining? The movie was borderline boring until Scariff
No way
@@marleneg7794 look at the rest of the comments
Another fantastic video! It's rare to find a nuanced reflection on films like these that tend to be either hated or loved. You did a great job at pointing out the weak spots, I wonder though how much of Jyn's backstory was deleted; there was so much footage in the trailer that didn't end up in the final film.
Thank you! I tried to thread that needle best I could. I have a feeling that every Saw Gerrera scene was re-written and re-shot, so I think it was probably pretty different before.
Like Stories of Old Really kind of sad that they decided to dumb down Jyn's character. She had a lot of potential to be a great character, honestly. If they only removed the 32 minute sequence of them saving Gaden Erso and used that time to make a much better background story, we could've get a better film.
Very interesting points Michael. I admire the way you portray the constructive criticism.
I do think there is a difference between comparing a character in a stand-alone film, and a trilogy; I think it was elemental for the audience to have empathy for Rey when the audience is going to follow her for three movies, in comparison to Jyn who was going to be only in one and she was going to die in the end.
Also, I think Rogue One is more about the rebellion than Jyn's story; although it centers around her, all the characters have an equal motif to rebel, making the plot of the movie about the rebellion, not Jyn's arc. If Jyn would have had more emphasis and backstory, the other characters would have fallen in the background, and the rebellion would not have been as important. I believe they made it this way to portray how the rebellion is more important than any individual's story, including Jyn's. In contrast to Rey, who is in fact, the center of the new face of the star wars story, the connection to Skywalker, and her journey emphasizes about discovering the force; she has more to deliver to the audience hence it requires more depth; she's the one who carries the story forward with the audience experiencing her journey.
Although I enjoyed the video and the analysis, I do not think it's fair to compare two characters from different kinds of plots. I do not see them as faults but as very different approaches to protagonists. Nevertheless, this is very informative about writing; very well done.
Both have bad issues on screen and off screen but I prefer Rogue One. You overlooked so many things about Rey that made her disliked,Jin may be boring but the story of Rogue One is not just about her but how the entire crew got together who later sacrificed themselves to get the Death Star blueprints.
What things did u dislike about Rey?
Regardless of the over analysis, Rogue One is still a far better film.
Nope
@@aj_7608 Yep
which doesn't really say much does it
I respectfully disagree.
Maybe if you enjoy zero character development and being bored to death
TFA and rogue one are two very different kinds of movies with different themes, and I think one fails and one succeeds in the job they are allotted to do. Comparing them with a single standard is a little erroneous. TFA is supposed to be the grand hero journey with high drama and deep emotionality following strong, well-definred characters- a space opera. Rogue one is a war movie- essentially a 'realistic' portrayal of military conflict about the sacrifice of NAMELESS nobodies for the greater good. TFA fails to deliver because there is no discernible weight to the hero journey.
Contrary to your criticism, what's great about Jyn Urso is precisely her 'everyman' quality, which refreshingly (as opposed to the in your face 'women can be strong heroes too ' of TFA), more passively (?) subverts gender expectation by making our identification with this everyman, be, with a woman (I would arguably way more effectively dissolving gender barriers by ignoring them altogether).
But what's the most memorable scene in Rogue One? It's not some cathartic moment of drama, its the BAD GUY mowing through nameless characters you've never seen the faces of, and your in awe and terror, still hoping nameless guy 7 is able to pass on the thingy to nameless guy 8. It's one of the few movies that elevates the ANONYMOUS struggle of people for what is right; rogue one throws a rose on the grave of the unknown soldier.
On the other hand, the characters in TFA, while shown to BEGIN in grave and pitiable circumstances, are far too coddled and never really, truly SUFFER, or fail catastrophically and surprisingly. It feels as if the whole movie is on 'safe mode' and it makes the viewer never care, or want to care about the characters, because they getting away with too much and seem ENTITLED to proceed on to the next stage of the plot without having earned it.
Well said.
I know you posted this 2 years ago, but this should have been higher upvoted. A great analysis that nails it to a T
Seriously? Being taken away from your family and getting brainwashed into killing, not even knowing who you are is not ENOUGH suffering? Or growing up all alone, afraid, feeling abandoned, worthless, working all day and not getting anything in return is not ENOUGH suffering? or being manipulated all your life while your parents treat you like ticking-bomb and send you off to your uncle who almost kills you is not ENOUGH suffering?
@@lordofchaos1502 Of course it is, but ALL of that is covered in the first 5 minutes of the first movie and never has any visible impact on the characters in anyway ON SCREEN. You cant just say "oh yeah this guy here has suffered super alot in his life, ok? but don't worry about that, now he's riding a horsey thing through a space Casino and wooping it up as he kills his ex-stormtrooper buddies with zero sympathy. Enjoy!"
NONE of their supposed trauma comes through on screen, and, for the purposes of every STORY, the struggles and suffering must occur within the context of actual story your'e watching, or very well implied. Do these characters seemed deeply traumatized to you? Have you been around people who are actually traumatized? I would love to see movie where this comes though, but everything is so emotionally flat and 2-dimensional.
DAMN there's a war in the comments...
Comment Wars.
Have you felt it?
Episode 7: The Butthurt Awakens
Snore One : A Butt-hurt story
Different opinions all over... :) I love TFA, and if you do not that's fine. At some point people need to agree to disagree, and just love star wars! :D :)
SlashFilm wrote an article proving they did not watch your full video, lol. Its kind of obnoxious.
I've been a subscriber for a while and I'm a big fan of your work. And, in this case, my film nerd friends and I have come to a similar conclusion: that the first half of Force Awakens is great but the character arcs start off great but quickly fall apart when they just sort of coast through the rest of the film with minimal impact or challenge. While Rogue One has a messy first half, but man, from the Eadu sequence on, it really starts to move and just has such a fantastic act 2b and act 3. And that ending!
Personally I'd much rather a film end well than start well and lose steam, but I'm hoping Lucasfilm learns from both and, as they continue to gain their footing in this VERY difficult task of continuing Star Wars, deliver those great dramatic elements WITH fantastic characters. I'm excited to see where they go as they learn and grow the franchise.
The one element of Rogue One that annoys me is the needless jumping-around between locations, complete with titles, in the beginning of the movie. It's just so unnecessary, and the location titles essentially telling people that this is important information... when it really isn't. I can forgive that though, and you're right -- from Eadu on it was fucking fantastic.
I completely agree. TFA is very enjoyable up until it's about another Death Star. Starkiller Base infuriates me to no end because its fake science is too fake science to make any sense in my eye, but that's not important for the actual story taking place. Once everyone leaves Takodana, the movie starts to fall apart for me. Meanwhile Rogue One starts off shaky, but it ends with me being really satisfied with where the movie went because the ending was strong. I'm also not too opposed to fan service, except for that blatant R2 and 3PO cameo that could have been done better, so that makes a lot of moments in the first half fun.
You're talking about a series where sound being carried in space happens all the time. If you can suspend your disbelief with that, then why can't you with what you claim to be Starkiller Base's "fake science"?
That is to enhance storytelling. We all know they would not make sound, but they aren't reacting to the sounds of a ship or an explosion, they are reacting to what they are seeing and what their ships' sensors are picking up. There is one moment in Star Wars: The Clone Wars where droids are talking to one another and Plo Koon is talking to his clones, all of whom are out in space, but he wears a mask to help him breath in atmosphere anyway and it's possible there could be something added inside so he can relay orders to his men via their helmets, and droids can also have wireless connection to one another. I admit that is flimsy, but it doesn't feel out of the realm of possibility for Star Wars, the episode is still loads of fun, but I do feel it is one of those ones that is on the edge for me in how possible it really is. Star Wars has a lot of liberties with science but it still feels grounded. There's artificial gravity that is added to weightless environments, there's beams of light that stop to create a sword, there are tractor beams, and light speed, and instantaneous communication, and then there's the Force (Ultimately making Star Wars science fantasy than fiction), but it all feels pretty contained outside of the Force and it is all for the story to continue. Seeing people float around or having grandchildren interact because it took 100 years to get from A to B isn't going to help the story. And with it's groundedness, there's no time travel, there's no teleportation, there's no alternate universes, unlike a number of other science fiction franchises. Those aren't bad things, but things get really complicated really quickly. If those existed, you should have a pretty utopian society in the Galaxy, but that's not Star Wars, that's more Star Trek (And that's fine by the way, it works for Trek and its story.). And if you really want to go nuts, there are cosmic entities in comic books where they have such stupid amount of power that even through science, it's a long shot, but that's comic logic and comic logic is nuts, and the closest you get to that in Star Wars is the Force, but even it appears to have its limits. There are more grandiose stories like the Mortis arc and the Yoda arc in Clone Wars or the character of Bendu in Rebels, but there's something about it being the Force that makes them work more, although at times hard for me to wrap my head around, but back to the science.
Starkiller Base uses gravity to absorb a star that would affect the entire planet. The gravity needed to absorb a star and compress its mass into the core of the planet would be too much for anything to last on the surface. The energy should be affecting all the weather, it should be hot, not snowy, people should be lying on the ground because the gravity would be so intense that nothing can ever happen once it is activated. The entire planet was already collapsing in on itself because it had no core or then the gravity with a star was trying to pull in the crust. Not only that, when it fires, unlike the Death Star where a bunch of beams come together at just the right angles to combine and fire as one, which could be calculated, this thing shoots a singular beam that then splits into multiple beams and all the while curving in space. Again, gravity can do the curving, but it still is bothersome that it splits into multiple beams to destroy all those planets. Now, there are the gravity projectors from certain Imperial ships that can pull ships out of hyperspace, that's just a massive tractor beam, something we've seen and as it is not really massive, it can be believable enough, they're not pulling stars apart despite the name Star Destroyer.
And if the First Order is supposed to be a fledgling of the Empire, where are they getting the funds? Unless the Empire was already working on creating Starkiller Base, how did the First Order get the funds to make this thing as well as all the other massive crafts that aren't just repurposed Imperial craft, but larger and "improved" versions? And Starkiller Base would ultimately be a failure anyway. They destroyed one system (a strategic one, so they have that going for them) and then while absorbing the star, the planet was unstable because it had no core and then had more gravity than it originally had trying to absorb the outer layers, it couldn't have lasted much longer. Although being more believable by falling apart with each use, it makes it still inferior to the Death Star which would have had the capability of being used multiple times if it weren't for a flaw that was purposefully made (and even before the retcon, a heat exhaust vent still makes sense, and the destruction was a chain reaction, so even with a cover or a bend it still would have been a crippling blow.). The economics and science behind Starkiller Base doesn't work, and if they hadn't killed it in the movie, I would have at least tried more to accept it because then there would be this overlying threat in the next movies like how the Death Star was originally meant to be from George Lucas' plan with the earlier drafts of Star Wars, but now it's gone and I can't see how the First Order can make another (even a normal Death Star) which would only infuriate me and a number of other fans even more. A second Death Star makes sense because of course you would build another one. You are a galactic entity that can acquire the materials and you already have the plans, and it was all a trap for the Rebellion. Starkiller Base is a knockoff trying to be a bigger threat, but with it being so implausible in my eyes, it only makes it more inferior and any other new super weapons would just be overdone at this point.
To counter all of this, the Death Stars used kyber crystals which do have a connection with the Force, so it is also pretty ridiculous, but I like their size as they are massive, but no bigger than a moon, and really it's the weapon that's important and not so much the surrounding, but that's where Starkiller fails as it is the whole planet. Now there is a theory that Ilum is the planet that became Starkiller Base, and with kyber crystals having had an abundance on the planet, there may be some Force ex machina bull crap that could try to explain away it's logic, but I still find that dubious and rather lazy.
There's actually a real world corollary to how the First Order got the funding: ISIS. It's not a state but it acts like one. The way ISIS funds itself is through taxation and seizure of assets from controlled territories. In the same way, think of Bespin and Lando's "deal" with Vader that, presumably, included them not seizing Bespin's assets.
It's pretty safe to say that not all of the Empire was liberated (it held pretty sizable territories when the Emperor died) so there would still be a sizable base to draw from. Add in that, by the time TFA starts, you have an ascendant First Order (the opening crawl implies the First Order is notorious). In fact, a secondary benefit of destroying the Hosnian System is that they could now easily expand their tax base. Systems paying tax to the First Order would not face their wrath.
You've perfectly pointed out the reason I couldn't quite get into Rogue One the same way I got into The Force Awakens. And it's not just that Jyn is passive - it's that we don't see her wanting any different or wanting anything at all.
I always thought the main character in rouge 1 was the Death Star... everyone else in the film just tells its story.
cdw442
Exactly!!!!!
cdw442 no that is TFA
I can't shake the feeling that character development in R.O. took a backseat due to them dying anyway.
It's a heist / war movie. It has a cast of characters. Everyone whines, "I can't even remember the names of all the characters!" Yeah? Do you remember the names of every character in "Ocean's Eleven," or "The Magnificent Seven," or "The Dirty Dozen"? No, and you're not supposed to. It's like the "Rogue One" haters have never seen a film that didn't have "Star Wars" in the title and they think that the first two trilogies are just how all movies are supposed to be.
Wolfie Inu they are too focused on the hero’s journey but they forget that not every single story needs to follow that template. There’s also Saving Private Ryan, Inglorious Basterds, The Italian Job, etc.
@@wolfieinu
Everyone in Ocean's Eleven plays a critical role to the heist. In Rogue One, all the roles at the final act were manufactured to give each bland forgettable character something to do.
Space Ip Man dies like a chump even though he took out a dozen stormtroopers by himself earlier in the film. In fact, everyone dies because the script said so. Everything is forced and manufactured garbage.
e a r l y b o i s
w e l l d o n e!
p u n c t u a l
c a n y o u s a y j o y l a n e ?
too bad they didnt show or tell why rey is an expert pilot, marksman, mechanic, or why although she thinks the force is a myth, she has jedi master levels of prowess.
That's just because she is... wait for it... a wahman.
@@jjkhawaiian
Whiny boys like you are the reason why they pulled the "Rey Palpatine" plot out of their ass.
@@cometmoon4485 cause I want better-written movies than this tripe? Guilty. But they wrote this garbage, not me.
It’s all tied with her upbringing as a ship scavenger
That’s how she knows how to fix and fly ships
She’s good with a lightsaber because she already knows how to use melee weapons(her staff) which is required because in this difficult life she needs to defend herself
Also I know in a fair fight she wouldn’t beat Kylo even if she’s good with melee weapons
But the fight isn’t fair because Kylo is severely injured from when he got shot in his side by Chewbacca
That is actually why in the film he gets shot so that Rey can beat him
(You can see him limping through the fight)
I disagree with you where the trip to Eadu in Rogue One is concerned. While the movie did not 100% need it, in my view, it certainly helped strengthen Jyn's resolve in destroying the Death Star. Seeing her father die is one of the movie's few "show, don't tell" actions. As the death of Jyn's father encourages her further to take on the task of obtaining the plans to the DS. Other than that, the journey to Eadu had a purpose, as they understood bringing Galen to the Rebellion would convince them better about the Death Star's danger. Of course, the mission is a failure; Galen dies, and the squad is then left with no support from the majority of the Rebellion save for Admiral Raddus, which brings us to Act III.
All in all, brilliant video. It really makes you think deeper about what these movies do right and what they do wrong beyond the basic criticism many people say about TFA.
Now this is good, legitimate criticism against these movies. Could you do these with the prequels & original trilogy as well?
Thank you, I tried! Ands perhaps I will revisit Star Wars one day. It takes a lot of energy to navigate such a big franchise...
@@LessonsfromtheScreenplay I think a critic's purpose is to correct the wrongs in a filmmaker's attempt to create cinematic achievements. LFTS is really taking a great approach to filmmaking and his criticism is very good. This helps you learn not just filmmaking but understand storytelling and its various mechanics. And yeah, I think he is very dedicated to what he does. What he does is better than most critics write today and will help filmmakers understand more efficiently towards the combination of plot and character. Really great work.
@@LessonsfromtheScreenplay You should make a video on zack snyder's justice league. How more can be good and how character development can change the movie.
You make a lot of good points in regard to the storytelling in these two films. That said I think one of your assumptions is wrong: That Jyn is the protagonist. Yes, she's the main character, but this movie isn't about her. This movie is about the rebels as a whole. I think that changes a lot of your points when you open that focus.
This could also be because, like everyone I've talked to in person on the matter, I felt that Rogue One is the strongest Star Wars film to come out in my life time (born after episode VI and before I). It didn't make a mockery of the universe created by George Lucas and countless others. It wasn't packed with cartoonish characters that's only purpose is to be sold to children.
So was the character development worse than episode VII? Probably, and to that end I can't argue. But the point of this film isn't character development. It's telling a legend that was hinted at years ago in Episode IV and getting you to empathize with the rebels which until this point we only cared about because the protagonists did. I'm not saying that's definitively right, but that's my 2 cents on the matter. Side bar: Agree 100% on the diversity in casting, long overdue.
However, the diversity in casting did not matter a single bit to me, and for a good reason. I completely lost track of any group identity of any of them. Because the actors worked as a fascinating ensemble to portray many different kinds of rebels. And each character was so distinct and so important in their own way. But the fact that they were different was not at all the point, it was not important; the point was that their common enemy was the Empire. It was brilliantly directed. And also, the Force itself had a positive importance that hasn't been found in any other SW since the OT. Rogue One is second only to the first SW movie (1977), to me.
Star Wars has always been diverse.
Man I wrote a whole long segment about how Jyn isn’t the protagonist, that the Rebellion is and now I see yours and I know people are gonna accuse me of copying
Great vid, I really love your analysis! However I disagree with some of your take on Rogue one. I think Jin's passive ride in the first half is reinforcing her characters passive approach to 'the cause' (as her conversation with Saw finally voices)...it's not until her father's goal is passed on to her that she becomes active and makes the 180 degree turn in commitment, leading to the second half of the film. The Edu scene is crucial for two reasons: 1) she experiences her fathers death which is key to actually accepting his mission - just as many young hero's require their mentor's death to fully grow into their role (Saw's death doesn't serve in this because she broke from Saw, but never broke from her father), and 2) it illustrates the depths to which the hard-core elements in the rebellion will stoop in favor of their cause, the ends justifying the means behavior that Cassian refer's to in his speech before the final mission. The weight of that fact/speech is significant in the SW universe because we have previously seen only black and white, good and evil in the forms of the empire and rebellion. Edu shows us instead of telling us...Edu also shows Jin what commitment costs right as she's making the decision to commit, and challenges us, the viewer, to take sides in the argument she has with Cassian about what are acceptable behaviors for the 'good guys'...and Cassian brings us all around by pointing out that such commitment is only worth the sacrifices if you take it all the way to the end...which is where this story, unlike so many others, will ultimately take these characters: to their very end.
Rogue One is lightyears better than Star Wars: The Force Awakens (Badly). Honestly, neither of these films are as good as they 'could' be; however, Rogue One at least attempted to make a new, compelling story. T.F.A. is just a (poor) rendition of A New Hope; Luke is Rey; The Starkiller base is the Deathstar, etc. Prosaic, prosaic, prosaic
mdg140 but he has a point rogue ones character arc doesnt pay off.
Something that occurs to me regarding the passive vs active protagonist is that until the very end of The Shawshank Redemption, Andy Dufresne is a completely passive protagonist. He doesn't cause anything to happen in the story, things just happen to him (getting convicted of murder, thrown in jail, beaten, etc.). Yet, this is a great movie. Why can some movies succeed with passive protagonists while some cannot?
because in The Shawshank Redemption, it isn't set up so that the audience is supposed to follow Andy with all the other characters being supporting roles, in fact Red is as much of a protagonist as Andy is and he is active.
I actually think Jyn and Cassian's relationship in Rogue One works akin to Andy and Red's in Shawshank. It doesn't have the time span that Andy and Red's has, but it worked very well imho. I actually think Jyn being more passive initially strengthened Rogue One. Andy being more passive also worked, because it hid how active he was under the surface.
Andy Dufresne is not a passive protagonist. You are mistaking a character having control over their sources of conflict with a character being active.
The story follows the various small actions he does to change his own destiny. The point of his character is that every small action and decision that he makes over many years in prison all built into his final escape and revenge against the corrupt prison.
If you think the only thing he does in the film is dig a hole at the end, then you haven't been paying attention to the film. He's been digging that hole during the entire movie.
This is the difference between a character driven story and a plot driven story. And both can be executed either well or poorly. The best movies are the ones that balance both aspects and are executed very well.
A character driven tale will make you concerned about the well being of the protagonist and a plot driven tale will make you curious about what happens next. Both of these techniques have one end goal in mind which is to get you, the audience, to care about what you are watching or to at least be interested in it.
Good character driven story:
There will be blood
Good plot driven story:
Inception
Bad character driven story:
Daredevil
Bad plot driven story:
Now you see me
Good balanced movie:
The count of monte cristo
Thanks for the thoughtful critique in what has become an otherwise very annoying discourse. I understand the strengths and weaknesses of both films-- interestingly I think the two movies kind of complement each other in this regard. TFA stronger characters weaker/safer story. R1 stronger/riskier film, weaker characters. i suppose I gravitate towards R1 because TFA had by the book character building to the point where it felt like they were cliche. R1 was riskier and it showed us a different side of the SW universe that we havent seen before, with its grittier darker elements -- while still feeling fundamentally like a star wars film.
I definitely agree. TFA had stronger characters because they had the time to invest in them. RO had to tell a coherent narrative in only one movie, and I think I appreciated that part of RO. It felt different by showing the consequence of war and that heroes are not always so clearly defined.
Whereas TFA took the time to explore each character a bit about their back story, but they used a safer story to complete the movie so that their characters are more compelling but the story is not.
sumsriv well said, I definitely agree they were sort of each other's inverse in terms of pros/cons. Rogue One is definitely my favorite as well for similar reasons.
I personally think that Rouge One didnt take much risks either. Outside of killing them all we knew what was bound to happen in terms of the plans being stolen. Heck people are annoyed by Starkiller but wont mind a movie based solely about the death star AGAIN.
well the mcguffin might be very overdone (death star, stolen plans [this is now the 4th such movie]) the tone, themes, relationships, style were all very different. TFA seems like such a disney film in its cliche arcs-- i felt like i was watching alladin.
sumsriv the force awakens characters are stronger but they're not likable, I'd take K2SO over all of force awakens. This is a bad review, Awakens is Garbage
For the show and don't tell part about the introduction of the main protagonist, I have to disagree… I think that the sequel (with 3 movies) was essentially the main protagonist's jedi journey, hence they had the luxury of spending much of TFA to introduce the main protagonist via "showing" to portray a concrete, compelling idea of her as a person, which is perfectly ideal to me.
On the other hand, the introduction of the main protagonist (or more fitting, the main character) in Rogue One was grossly skimmed over by just "telling" because it wasn't really her story in the first place. She was just a part of something much bigger, so logically her own introduction didn't have or even need the luxury of "showing" which typically requires more screen time. They already "showed" and laid ground of how the death star came about and the relationship of the pivotal characters at the start. I believe they had to dive right into the true motive of the movie (the death star) and they did that by "showing" how the true motive of the movie came about, instead of just displaying a bunch of yellow words floating in space and then cutting into the actions of the rebel army planning to infiltrate the imperial database to obtain the blueprint (the part which is rightfully praised in the video).
The backstory of the main protagonist in Rogue One merely was a just cherry on top, which in its core only to serve as the relatable tool to push the story forward at a personal level (her story) instead of a whole (the rebel army). Notice how they spend much of the time in the first half of Rogue One introducing the main characters and their relationships, instead of just one? That's the "showing" part of the introduction to the true core of the story, which was about how a whole cast of people came to sacrificing themselves for a greater good. If not, it can be just the main character sacrificing herself with the help of a bunch of other side characters who didn't really need to sacrifice themselves, for sake of the grandiose in portraying the main character's story.
So for me, Rogue One did "show" its main protagonist (i.e. the people and their identities which motivates them). And likewise, TFA also did "show" the main protagonist and his motivation (i.e. the girl jedi and her identity which motivates her).
Maybe I didn't word this right. I'm not a film major person. I just think it's a bit unwise to compare the introduction of the main characters like this, considering the cores of the two movies were fundamentally different.
Oh and btw, Rogue One is the superior disney SW movie because it showed different facets of the rebel army and the imperial army in a tasteful, short, efficient way without needing some unnecessary story arc for the side characters to "cross over" from the evil side. That the "good guys" can be selfish and self serving at times and the "bad guys" have reasonable or relatable motives of their own.
"Making us eager to see what lies waiting for them, in episode VIII". Well, that ship has sailed.
Sailed, and ran out of fuel. ;)
Don't you dare say the Force Awakens was better than Rogue One.
Good video, but I think you totally skip the point that Jyn's character arc is exactly this: growing from her passive/hidden/rebellious state to concretely taking action and channeling her skills for the greater good. When speaking with Saw, her line "It's not a problem if you don't look up" regarding the growth of the evil Empire absolutely characterizes this, a view that she has definitely discarded by the end of the movie.
She's our guide through Rogue One's events, so a lot of the plot is explained through her (especially in the beginning). While this is happening, she's shifts from "well, this is the world" to "lets make our part and change things". By the end of the movie, there's nothing passive about her anymore, and that shows intent from the filmmakers regarding that aspect.
Okay that last part with the lightsaber and the force was awesome
I rarher watch Rogue One 1000 times than having to see TLJ one more time.
Please do one about Get Out, I think its a really great movie and if you can explain why that would be amazing. Love your vids x
It's so good! Yeah, I may do one on that.
Even though the outcome of Rogue One was already established through the lore, the second half of the film managed to have me on the edge of my seat. Something that I can't say about TFA. Sure, the characters of RO might have been weaker, but at least they managed to make them true war heroes who reached their goals through sacrifice and hard work. Rey, I mean, she just does the force thing, abracadabra, problem solved. Because of that, she is one of the least engaging characters in the SW universe.
This videos shows the dangers of applying principles in isolation. Maybe there was more "showing" and lead character "agency" in TFA, but Rogue One still felt superior. But those differences may have been marginal and some other guiding principle may have been at work: Such as respect for the Star Wars universe.
Sometimes, a passive character IS the storyline. The character innocently and unexpectedly gets caught up in circumstances that are beyond their control. That is the story arc of Rogue One and it’s not a bad thing. Erso is dragged into the rebellion, the same way Luke is dragged into the rebellion.
Would you not say Luke is a passive protagonist for most of Star Wars?
He's definitely pretty passive. He makes a few decisions along the way, but he's also not a particularly strong character. I don't think people love Star Wars because they love Luke. I think we do have a clear sense of who he is and what he wants, and so when he is along for the ride he have a better idea of the point of view he's using to look at the world through. But the original films are certainly not without their own flaws.
Lessons from the Screenplay I suppose he is being taught by obi wan throughout the movie, and kind of grows into a direct narrative force as the movie progresses, and remains the solid protagonist for the rest of the trilogy.
thats the point tho, i think. people werent supposed to love rogue one because they love jyn either. rogue one is not a hero driven adventure story like most star wars films are, but rather a black hawk down or saving private ryan type gritty war movie within the star wars setting. which is something i really appreciate cause it adds a sense of maturity back to the franchise after the prequels.
movies like that almost always have fairly passive protagonists as theyre all about scrambling against all odds to deal with circumstances beyond the characters control. theyre not supposed to be in a position to make things happen, necessarily.
i agree that the saw guerrera part didnt really work tho, at least not the way it was presented in the final cut.
eadu on the other hand - although it couldve been executed a little better as well, no doubt - does serve a purpose in the story. youre right in that the 2nd half of the movie is where rogue one truly shines tho
I'd never say Luke was reluctant to be a hero, I'd say the story never allowed him to be. He wanted to be the hero, but his aunt and uncle wouldn't let him, then the empire killed his aunt and uncle, and that obstacle was removed for him. Until the space battle, the story and the other characters just dragged him along.
Plus, the goal of episode 4 is to destroy the death, not for Luke to learn the ways of the force and become a Jedi like his father. He barely does any of this in episode 4 and its not until Empire Strikes Back that we see a real journey towards that, Yes, Luke is the one who destroys the death star, but he is dragged along until that point. Which is why he is passive "for most of Star wars"
Weirdly I much preferred rogue 1
Same here, not even in the same league.
That's not weird, that's just good taste.
most people did (mainly due to the fact Jyn managed to avoid falling into the Mary-Sue trap that Rey dived into)
Totally agree with the passive nature of Jyn's character. That said, I don't agree that Rey is an active character in her story - she just gets caught up in it all in the same way. She doesn't have the agency that Luke had in A New Hope. She certainly isn't as likable or relatable as either Jyn or Luke as well, which for me made The Force Awakens really miss the mark.