The Last Jedi - Forcing Change
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Star Wars: The Last Jedi is a strange movie. The things it does well, it does very well, and the things it drops the ball on, it really drops the ball on. In this video I look at the character arcs of Finn and Kylo Ren, comparing what works and what doesn’t. And finally, I collect my thoughts on the idea of letting the past die.
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Hey guys! I recommend checking out Just Write's new video on The Last Jedi: ruclips.net/video/CE7SkcoyVAI/видео.html. It's a great breakdown of the three character arcs in the film, and how each character is being pulled between their want and their need.
It's almost like you guys planed this out ;)
Michael DiCristofano they even uploaded them almost the same time
Lessons from the Screenplay I was hoping you would have talked about luke's arc .I personally felt that his arc was the best and the most effective in the movie. I totally agree with everything you said
I don't know I feel like they could have paid off some of the built up plot threads left dangling. And throwing away snoke, rays parents, and the knights of ren. They could have given us something unexpected if they didn't try to mirror the og trilogy so much. Surprise me but don't tease something over and over then just toss it in the trash to fuck with me. And doing it repeatedly is antagonizing. Seriously the original director that was to follow up on the next film quit because the everything was shredded and he was left with nothing to work with. I understand that rian wanted to seem clever but he's not that's why so much fell flat and felt off. Snoke was boba fett all over again they didn't learn anything from the failings of the og trilogy. And instead took lessons from the prequals, the most hated of star wars movies.
Lessons from the Screenplay could you please make videos about the shape of water, blade runner 2049, three billboards and lady bird
"The Force Awakens ended as a tease, leaving every question unanswered, and building excitement more with the promise of substance rather than substance itself."
Speaking as someone who generally really likes JJ Abrams's output, that's the best description of most of his work I have ever heard.
I completely agree with this quote, I will try and balance that with the fact that JJ knew that Fore Awakens was the first of a trilogy and he didn't need to answer all the questions, just lay the groundwork for the trilogy. Rian Johnson decided to take a bulldozer to that groundwork and wreck pretty much everything
@@thejediofchicago6580 Yes, Rian was very intentional. Have you watched the the documentary the director and the Jedi?
The best description of Abrams work: "Ctrl + C, Ctrl + V".
Only his main character became Mary fucking Sue. And the only mistake of Rian Jonson was, he didn't stop that Mary Sue shit.
JJs good at leaving you with questions but he’s terrible at giving answers or the answers not being worth it or worth the effort of excitement which sucks
hahahahahah
Rian: "Let the past die."
Abrams: "We're bringing back Emperor Palpatine."
I guess he should have killed it when he had to?
In what world is "let the past die" the theme of TLJ?
@@coin3720 one where every WWII movie is promoting fascism.
You might think that the Allies killing Nazies seems pretty Antifa, but we were supposed to sympathize with the antagonists the whole time... or something I guess.
@@NyJoanzy yeah isn't it obvious that the villain is always the character who's right about things?
Yeah, I don't think Rian wanted "the past" to "die". Kylo Ren said it, and he's the villain.
I think Johnson is trying to say that we have to learn from our mistakes and move past them. Yoda and Luke both exemplify this theme.
Movies don't usually don't spend a lot of time criticizing or commenting on other movies in their series. If it seems like they are (in more than a tongue-in-cheek way), you're probably misinterpreting it to some extent.
7:47 One of my favorite things about the film is how Ben has a Sith lightsaber to strike Rey down with, and a Jedi lightsaber to strike Snoke down with. Turning back to the light, even for a moment, he's using his grandfather's lightsaber. Snoke points to Han as the good parent he takes after, but in this moment he's a Skywalker, not a Solo, before he finally destroys the family heirloom that ties the story together... only for Luke to symbolically hold an illusion of it as he steps into the mythical role the Rebels, as well as the audience, see him as.
That is a very astute observation
I didn’t even notice that, thanks for pointing it out
Wow, that's a cool thought. Never even noticed before.
I loved the look on Daisy Ridley's face right after he said, "Yes, I am." It was as if suddenly, she realized she didn't believe him.
"Let the past die" but don't forget to watch Han Solo, Obi Wan and Boba Fett origin stories in your local theater in 5DX IMAXXX
AMEN!!!
More like: let the past die so we can continue to milk this franchise for decades to come, with a slew of new, forgettable characters that make for endless merchandising opportunities.
There are a variety of movie analysis videos you can find on why this isn’t the message they were saying we should follow, but the message we should avoid.
The new prequels have been amazing so far imo
It's the villain that says that. Why would you project his words unto the other then-upcoming films?
It’s great to see someone who likes the last Jedi be still able to point out its flaws.
I've noticed that many of my fellow TLJ lovers were more willing to acknowledge that it had flaws (because yes it did, which I can admit despite loving it) within the first couple months of its premiere, likewise people who hated it would acknowledge some things they liked about it (usually Kylo's arc), but as time went on and the debate became increasingly toxic and personal, people doubled down on their respective sides and refused to admit there was anything bad or good about it, depending which side they were on.
I'll let people draw their own conclusions regarding the real life parallels to increasing tribalism and political polarization in the real world and the current state of discourse in Star Wars fandom.
Daragh McLoughlin Uhhh what??? What planet are you living on? Nearly everyone who likes the film has criticized Canto Bight (even though I love it) ... It's the people who don't like the film who are incredibly toxic and over reactionary.
ed1rko17 No there’s a lot of people who will defend any criticism
TimeandMonotony you are spot on.
ed1rko17 respectfully Though I do agree there are toxic elements amongst the fans that don’t like the film ( and I certainly don’t share there point of view) I do see on the side of the defenders at first shock that anyone could dislike the movie, better then empire was a phrase often used. Then came the defense of “you have to see the movie more then once to really understand it”. When the plot holes and sloppy character arcs where pointed out the defense became “ these movies are really for kids” and if we still don’t like it you’re a man baby of toxic or alt right. Now while I don’t disagree that people like this exist and often their voices are disproportionately loud compared to vast majority of fans that dislike the Last Jedi. However to imply that only one side is “toxic” is disingenuous at worse or a lazy argument at best.
What?? A film can have both good and bad things in it!??? I refuse this conclusion!! The Last Jedi can either be the worst thing that ever happens to Star Wars or the best!! NO INBETWEENS!
Heh, I know the feeling. I really, really liked the movie & think it's really, really good overall, but I don't recall ever saying that was contingent on it lacking flaws, even serious ones. The final execution is more important than individual problems like Canto Bight's poor pacing, or the fact there probably should've been a scene of Luke at the high point of his life at some point to show us just how much he'd lost.
10:25 I come from the future. The answer is: nope nope nope, Abrams failed miserably.
It's sad, but true
Haha, sorry but I have to chuckle whenever anyone expresses hope that Abrams will innovate.
@K Ren It serves a higher purpose beyond shock value? Mary Poppins, Luke drinking milk or Kylo Ren shirtless? Don't get me wrong, I like the movie, but not everything in it was part of some grand plan.
Abrams had to clean up the mess Rian left behind.
I'll wait for it to get to Netlix..thanks.
Just a reminder, if Luke didn’t show up at the end than Rose would have been responsible for killing the resistance by stopping Finn lol
And if Poe wouldn't have sent the bombing run in the beginning, the entire Resistance + Finn would've died because the First ORder would have tracked them through hyperspace. When I say Rian Johnson punted on literally every lesson he wanted characters to have and the audience to witness, I fucking mean it. Literally every subversion and theme was either softballed or undermined later in the movie.
This plot was hanging on a shoestring of contrivances and suspension of belief.
Finn would not have saved anyone. He would've been incenerated.
That's Rose's arc - she goes from tasering people trying to abandon the Resistance, to letting them all die so that she still has a chance with the only boy who's ever gone on a 'mission' (i.e. date) with her.
It's about saving what we love, and Rose loves Finn
Did they even save the Resistance, though? There's like 8 of them on the Falcon. That's all that's left. They even said they have no allies.
Imagine if in WWII they considered it a victory because even though they lost England, Churchill and his aides escaped.
We know what'll happen. In the next one they'll have a fully supplied resistance again. Just like the Empire can just return at full strength after every film. This war is two sides which will never be defeated and never win. So who cares?
They've known each other for a day, her character was so stupid it makes me mad.
You know it is possible to listen to someones opinion and disagree with it, but still like them and the way that they choose to express it.
Wow, congratulations!! Aren't you just the enlightened Buddha himself sitting alone on the top of the mountain, huh?
The point he is making is not to himself, but to those who think that they have to hate everyone who has a different opinion
@
AliceDiableaux
That's not the point you silly goose.
I'm just frustrated that people throw a hissy fit when they hear a dissenting opinion.
+
This is the modern era, the result of algorithms which feed you more of what you want to see, hear, and read instead of those dissenting opinions. As a result people don't know how to respond anymore when someone disagrees with them on something, we also live in an era of celebrity of cults where individuals can make a lot of money by developing cults around them. We also live in an era in which opinions are more important then facts which has given rise to a growing number of pseudo intellectuals and once more growing tribalism.
Great analysis that approaches the film in an objective and constructive way. My biggest issue with The Last Jedi is how it aims to free the franchise of its repetitive nature, only to climax in a status quo reset wherein the Rebellion will have to fight the Evil Empire again next time. I would happily watch an edit of this movie with just the Luke, Kylo and Rey sequences.
Puttin aside the screenplay, I hope the next movie will have a faste pace on space battles. It's a big part not only in the franchise, but in all SYFY and it was a pity to waste so much time on a loooong chase
"to free the franchise of its repetitive nature, only to climax in a status quo reset wherein the Rebellion will have to fight the Evil Empire again next time. I would happily watch an edit of this movie with just the Luke, Kylo and Rey sequences."
Good point actually. I didn't think of that.
That's how Star Wars works look into the Legends Canon this happened over and over again. The balance was brought to the galaxy only for it to be brought to near ruin over and over again. That's why KOTOR 2's story is so important it realizes The Force is controlling people no matter what you do you cannot escape the impact what you do does to others. Which was KOTOR's way of openly mocking its own questing and alignment system.
Most of us realise what went wrong with TLJ and as you say, Samuel, is how Rian Johnson indeed aimed to free the franchise from its roots. To me and a lot of fans, this definitely is the wrong one to pull at the wrong time and in the wrong franchise too. Second, Disney, Kathleen Kennedy and Rian Johnson failed to understand the importance of the fight on the grander scale, ie Rebellion (Resistance) vs The Empire (New Order), to the audience.
We all know that a movie should not hold hands too tight with the audience, but TLJ and foremost its antagonists are in many ways walking conundrums, so many questions go unanswered and are now buried deep.
Yes, of course this trilogy should stand on it own merits, but Star Wars is Star Wars and by this I mean, it should not be shaped into something unfamiliar to the fans, that is called a disservice. If a customer walks into a car dealership to buy a Ford GT and the clerk handels him a Ferrari, the customer is going to think: "-Wow, this is new, it is nimble, a very fast one. No thank you, I will rather have my Ford GT!"
Tho, I am very exited about what J J Abrams might achieve with so little threads available.
Peace Out!
@@micaelh508 JJ has some work to do to fix what happened in ep 8. Since how it ended it could have easily been ep 9 where a new series could have come from a massive opened ended ending. They didn't kill each other, the bigger threat of the resistance and new order are in shambles. They have no real leaders anymore. Yet that's what happened in Star Wars over and over in now deemed "Legends" Lore. Rian trying to be smart played right into the hands of the mythos itself. Where he made it more pure to IP than if it did what fans wanted it would have been more subversive. Since The Force isn't predictable it isn't planned yet one thing it does is cause massive destruction.
I've hesitated to watch this video for a long time. Most critique of The Last Jedi inevitably devolves into political drama or just plain old name-calling and the same tired bickering. I'm happy to say that you made me truly understand why some people felt the way they did about the movie, especially when it comes to Finn's arc. Thank you for the excellent and thoughtful critique!
If there's one piece of comfort about the discourse surrounding The Last Jedi, it will get better with time, not worse. I do honestly believe years from now it will receive a much more appreciated consensus for the directions it took as a Star Wars film.
@@CerealBox64 True but the major issue are still there, especially with Finn, Poe, Rose and holdo
@@CerealBox64 It won't we both know it deep down infact I honestly doubt Star Wars will even be in theaters by then itll be shows and books because I think fans are that soured to it now on the big screen
@@CerealBox64 this type of hopeful optimism may only surround a movie that is structured good.
You can cut 50% of TLJ out and the ending still works. A clear disaster
@@alexb9969 How would TLJ's ending still work if you take away more than an hour of footage?
Something I have not seen many people criticize is how small the world feels in this trilogy. Somehow the galaxy went from being in good hands right back to being controlled by the empire/frist order and we still have no idea how. I mean they are literally wiping out multiple planets at a time, yet all we have is a few dozen rebels? Where is the rest of the galaxy... How is there no armies, alien races, political factions, or anything else in this war except a relatively small first order and an absolutely tiny rebel squad. The prequels had many, many problems, but at least they got scope right.
I think the rest of the galaxy will come as my thoughts are that Lukes death brought hope again so leiahs allies that never showed up at the end will come. I totally agree though that the world is very small.
Well the person that created this First Order which is more powerful and successful than the entire Empire ever was has been made into a complete hack of a character because muh “subversive”. Somehow this new more powerful entity went completely unnoticed and unchecked and was able to dominate the entire galaxy easily. Then the leader was killed just as easily and we are just supposed to be alright with that. Ignore that “the chosen one” and his son defeated the empire and then his son was laughed off screen milking alien tits.
YES YES YES! I think so many of the problems with this trilogy come from a lack of world building - clear, concise - not place in tertiary creative works - world building.
Did the whole galaxy join the rebellion against the empire in the original trilogy?
the issue is, they take the original trilogy and make it a carbon copy and call it "the new order", it's lazy and all these new Disney SW movies are lazy in the exact same way. They take concepts that are well established and they give it a slight twist. There you go! Another SW trilogy!
This is a very even and fair attempt to tackle this movie, and even though I really don’t agree with a lot of your conclusions, I do agree that much of TLJ’s fate in history will probably be decided by the third installment. Thanks for the vid.
Steve J Donahue that's what i think. We have to wait and see this trilogy as a whole
Romano Coombs midichlorians were a part of Star Wars 22 years before The Phantom Menace came out
Thank you for give and actual constructive reply as someone who didn't like the movie, insteed of the manchild stupid complains that i use to see when people express that "hate" to this movie. I really appreciate that.
TFA's fate in history was already waiting for the second/third installments to clear things up, and now we're supposed to wait for Ep 9 to justify what happened in TLJ? These are just as bad as the Alien prequels, if not worse.
Bro it was the same with Empire, dont bullshit me now with an unreachable expectations because the movie clearly will not match it
The relationship between Rey and Kylo was one of the best things I had seen in a Star Wars. I thought it was genius to discard the old light v.s. dark, but in the end, The Last Jedi threw away this part of the movie. Going into episode 9, we are at the same point the movie starts at. Rey is good, Kylo is bad. I wish the two had joined forces and made something surprising and intriguing for episode 9 to build on.
I agree
I feel this comment so, so hard. The film builds a credible thesis that "light versus dark" is hubristically simple, and that the universe is more complex than the simple patterns of good versus evil. Let the past die. And yet the final act of the film subverts its own credible and fascinating message by returning to the Star Wars status quo - light versus dark, good versus evil, the very model of the original trilogy.
I also wish I had any idea what the state of the galaxy was. How much of The First Order have we seen? All of it? Half of it? A fraction of it? Was literally every New Republic ship destroyed in TFA, or just some? Are our Resistance rebels literally all that's left in the galaxy? Are they going to be fighting guerllia-style a vastly superior force, or are we going to end up in something that more closely resembles a galactic civil war? Are both factions essentially decimated?
Episode IX can answer these questions, but this lack of worldbuilding by both JJ Abrams and Rian Johnson makes it harder to get invested in the universe. Without understanding the status quo, it's hard to know what the stakes are. Without knowing what the stakes are, it's hard to comprehend how significant (or not) the events of the plot are. These questions also could have been answered with single lines of dialogue. "The First Order must be serious, that's their entire fleet!" or "What's the point in running, The First Order has a dozen fleets just as big!" "The New Republic was hurt, but it wasn't destroyed. If we can rally their fleet we have a chance!" or "The New Republic is destroyed, they're all gone. We're all that's left." Really simple stuff that could help paint a dramatically clearer picture of the universe and the stakes our heroes face.
They never set it up for that. Maybe because they have different writers? Once they joined forces and killed whats his name, then what is left that can represent the First Order? They would have to introduce a whole new antagonist in the next film that would leave us wondering where he or she was the whole time. It is what it is...
I don't feel the movie ended with Rey/good Kylo/bad. I felt both were way more complicated than that. Rey really was tempted to stay with Kylo and vice versa. They have to grapple with that part of them now.
We're also back to the Empire vs. Rebels. So those bold choices that people say TLJ took led us back to the same dynamic of the OT?
With the whole trilogy out, Last Jedi looks even better in comparison, being the only film trying to push the franchise in new directions. I wish it had been recognized for its risks when it came out.
Me too , i love this movie
Mee too
wait, are you collabing with "Just Write"?
The problem with Finn's arc is that it's a repeat from The Force Awakens. Finn wants to run away from the First Order out of fear of dying, then at the end faces them head on. Both times. He tries to run away at the bar, but then fights back against Kylo. He tries to run away in the escape pod, but then flies his ship at the cannon. It's a stupid character reset. It also makes no sense for Finn to be flying the ship to Canto Bight when it was established constantly in TFA that he can't pilot a ship.
blame rian johnson
It's a shame because I like finn
Kylo also had the same plot - from being conflicted to becoming a fully evil
Rey had the same arc about looking for purpose and finding one
i can't believe people didn't notice that.
Creepy Closet - I agree, Finn is great! In the first film, it's set up that he was taken from his family by the First Order, raised to do terrible things. There's so much material to explore with that origin, and I would have loved to see him fleshed out more in TLJ. Such a great opportunity for character growth, wasted.
Did you even watch the video? It may seem like the beginning and endpoints of Finn's arc are similar, but if you examine his motivations they are very different. In TFA he faces the First Order to protect Rey. In TLJ he faces the First Order to protect the resistance. Finn didn't commit himself to the resistance until he had finished his arc in TLJ. His arc also was not reset because he still cared for Rey in TLJ just as he did at the end of the last movie.
I loved the back and forth between Rey and Kylo, and how it hinted to a moral grey area never explored before in a star wars movie, which is why I found it extra frustrating when Both Rey and Kylo ended up exactly where they started as characters: Good guy and bad guy.
That was kind of disappointing, I'll agree with you.
Gotta somewhat disagree here. The morally grey area has been explored before in a Star Wars movie. Han Solo starts out morally grey, selfish, and out for himself in the first movie, but ends up becoming a hero by the end of it because of his experiences with Luke and Leia.
Daniel F yeah, but at the same time.... I’m curious as to how they’ll be the next time they see each other.... as they’ve both reached out at this moral grey.
Agreed, their Force conversations were great. But I think the way things ended is a great setup for the characters' interactions in Episode IX. They connected with each other to the point that they wanted to turn the other to their side, and they now have a relationship beyond being just enemies on opposite sides of a war. How will they react to seeing each other again? How will they deal with having to fight each other, considering how well they worked together as a team in TLJ? I have no idea what will happen, and I find that exciting.
SpScarletSpider Agreed but I meant specifically for jedi-sith characters. In past movies characters end up aligning perfectly with one side or the other, I'd like a force-wielding character to reject both, like Luke did at the beginning of the movie by pointing out the hypocrisy and corruption in the Jedi order. Best example would be Ahsoka from the Clone wars when she (SPOILERS) leaves the Jedi order and unlike Luke doesn't abandon her moral duties. That'd be, in my personal opinion, a way to properly defy expectations.
This is one of my favorite videos on The Last Jedi. I loved that movie, but I definitely acknowledge that it’s flawed, and I appreciate that this video does too. I had a different interpretation of why Finn’s arc doesn’t really land, though. I think it’s more a problem of Finn not actively learning anything. In that final battle on Crait, when he’s flying into the cannon, that’s not him dying for the Resistance, it’s him dying because he hates the First Order. “I won’t let them win.” So even here, Finn still isn’t fighting for the Resistance. It’s still personal. When Rose stops him from flying into the cannon, she’s teaching him a valid lesson. He shouldn’t kill himself just to destroy something he hates. But the problem is, that lesson comes at the very end of the movie. We don’t get to see Finn use that lesson, and that makes it kind of hard to believe in. If that’s what Finn’s character was going to learn, it needed to happen before the last 20 minutes so he can hear the lesson, then apply it.
Poe was supposed to die in TFA. His character took away quite a lot from Finn's arc. The journey from child soldier of the First Order to leader of the Resistance would have been better developed throughout all three movies. But we all know how the last movie went.
lovepotionsinc I think you’re probably right, and on a surface level I agree with you, but it’s hard to agree completely because I love Oscar Isaac too much to truly wish for his role to be minimized.
There was a post somewhere on Tumblr that argues Poe is better off as a guiding kind of big brother figure for Finn. Many also don't feel like Finn needed to be Force Sensitive since that took away the individual moral choice of deserting the First Order.
His fear and trauma in TFA should've been motivation enough as Finn was essentially running away in the beginning of his arc, while he was learning about society and life beyond being a mindless cog in the FO machine in TLJ. Jannah and Co essentially validated Finn's attributing his defection to the Force by saying they experienced the same thing. Their worldview is unchanged and their actions were explained away by the Force rather than being a choice they make collectively (there must've been some conflict with those who couldn't imagine rebelling or were True Believers). Rose herself heard about Finn's exploits and was inspired by his 'heroism' before she realised he was cowardly trying to escape in an escape pod in TLJ. That could've been expanded upon within the movie itself considering Finn's confrontations with Phasma. I always felt something was missing between those two. There's a load of subtext and Phasma seemed so wasted as a character. Their face-off could've inspired some Stormtroopers to rebel.
Alas, it's all down to the Force. Too clean and easy, and reduces Finn's character depth to just running around trying to get to Rey. It's not a development, it's a circle.
I love Poe too but even though his character was a bit more interesting in TLJ, I don't think it really needed a huge chunk of the movie to explain his insubordination and recklessness and learning to trust the chain of command. Again, time better spent building up Finn's arc. I think because Poe's character lived past TFA, the audience automatically made Rey/Finn/Poe the new trio of the Sequels when in reality it's Rey/Kylo/Finn. That would've resolved a lot of issues throughout the entirety of the sequel trilogy.
lovepotionsinc I totally agree with the Force-sensitivity point. It removes everything that makes a stormtrooper defecting interesting. Also, there’s a deleted scene from The Last Jedi that does almost exactly what you said with Phasma. Finn is talking to Phasma, saying how cowardly she was when he had a gun to her head on Starkiller Base, and when her squadron hears this, they start to lower their blasters and look around at each other. Phasma then shoots her whole squadron, showing us she has done and will continue to do anything to hide her cowardice. It’s a really cool moment, one that I wish wasn’t cut.
Your essay shows perfectly how Kylo Ren's Arc does NOT work. He is forced to choose between Rey and Snoke, and then he supposedly has chosen to betray Snoke .... ONLY to return BACK to the dark side and become a cartoonish villian for the rest of the movie. His decisions have ultimately NO meaningful consequences. Actually every and each character ended exactly at same point where their story began, except with all the tensions and mysteries of TFA left completely destroyed.
TLJ is a wonderful example of how critics try to turn Ryan Johnson's clear lack of consistent vision for the characters and the plot into some sort of genuine reimagining of the original Star Wars. Kylo Ren is not a tragic figure trapped between the light and the dark, its just RJ doesn't have any idea what to do with his character.
They mistake terrible creative decisions for "courage" and bad execution for "subverting expectations".
Delance1 Yeah. Seems like even they can't believe just how screwed up the new trilogy turned out to be. So there must be something profound about it, right? There. must. be. something!
All these desperate TLJ apologist videos make me think of a C.S. Lewis quote:
"For spiritual nature, like bodily nature, will be served; deny it food and it will gobble poison."
People are so desperate for deeper meaning on TLJ's disaster that they try to find something where nothing is.
The whole “let the past die” thing that Kylo Ren says isn’t the theme, it’s the anti-theme. Similarly, Rey’s initial idealization of the Jedi is also an anti-theme. The theme is to learn from failure, and one cannot learn from the past if they ignore it’s failings and put it on a pedestal (such as with Rey, initially) or turn their back on it entirely (as with Kylo, after killing Snoke).
3:35 but Finn isn’t trying to save the resistance. He’s trying to save Rey. He doesn’t want her to come back to the ship, and fall into the First Order’s trap. He tells this to Rose when they first meet
What he's trying to say is after this initial attempt, he doesn't try doing it again.
I love the last jedi but I agree that the FInn plot line left a lot to be desired.
However, DJ was the mirror image of FInn, and when DJ f’d Finn over, Finn finally realizes what his actions mean to the resistance. Finn got f’d over so hard that it made him look in the mirror for once.
Good video. Sadly the ending of the last jedi seems to dismiss everything it tried to build: the good guys are still very good and have to build up the resistance once more and the bad guys are very bad and try to crush them. The contradiction is exemplified in the scene where its revealed the jedi books weren't really burned, it shows the movie pretense of change without really commiting to it
Yeah, that's my main problem with the movie, by way of Kylo Ren, Luke and that other guy, the movie is saying "what if we let the past die, no more jedi, no more sith because it's not that simple". And at the end it's saying "look how bad Kylo Ren is, taking control of this new empire, look how good Rey is, with the good old jedi books. What? Change? I've never said that!"
I think Rian Johnson was trying to introduce the idea of getting rid of the past only to show that, in the end, tradition, myths and heroes are necessary. What doesn't work here is that many of us were really interested in that direction he introduced. Like, imagine Rey joining Kylo, in a sort of grey middle ground, the Resistence is broken, and Poe, Finn and Luke think she betrayed them, when she really is doing what she believes to be the best for the Galaxy. How's that for a cliffhanger?
We are interested because the movie makes a good point, the movie convinces us through various ways and characters that it might be a good thing to let the past die. But then it forgets all about it. There's not a point where it's like "well maybe not, maybe the old ways are better", it just goes there without showing us it changed its mind, so you end up being confused.
If I told you that violence isn't a proper way to end an argument, then proceeded to punch someone in the face because I disagreed with him, you'd end up as confused.
Kévin Le Gall Well, the Yoda scene is kinda that missing piece you say.
Oh god, exactly! I feel the same way. The entire movie just feels pointless as a result because it's major theme is to deconstruct the ideas of good and evil, but by the end the good guys are still good and the bad guys are still bad.
I think if Rey had actually accepted Kylo's offer then that would have actually been both consistent with the themes the movie was setting up and would make for an excellent cliffhanger.
If Kylo and Rey, the dark side and the light worked togheter to create a new order that rejects the past, that reject the black and white favour of the universe in favour of a middle ground to create peace, that would have been fantastic. But instead the movie ends where it began, and the only thing that came out of it was Snoke and Luke dying, with Kylo replacing Snoke entirely and Luke serving almost no purpose.
I hated Finn’s arc... they could have done something very unique with him given the fact that he was a stormtrooper... I feel as though his actions could have inspired a Stormtrooper Revolution... but the films are caught between nostalgia whilst subverting it. The Last Jedi is the Empire Strikes Back but all major twists have simply been subverted.
Great idea. An attempt to cause a Stormtrooper revolution would have been an excellent character development chance for Finn. Maybe an old Garrison not too far away, or better yet, deliberately giving himself up and attempting it from the inside, potentially as a martyr.
Would have been cool if he sacrificed himself and Ep IX opening was some Resistance operatives sticking propaganda wall papers with his face all over a wall.
Finn was really the only new idea in The Force Awakens, and they've hardly used it at all. Are there other stormtroopers who've broken their conditioning and left the First Order? That could provide material for a very different and interesting plot, so instead they spent the whole film sending him on some side-errand that ultimately achieves nothing plot-wise, and results in no discernable character growth, either. Luke's attempt at rescuing his friends in Empire was a failure, as they escape without him and have to then save HIM, but he's incredibly changed by what happens during that failed mission.
The sad thing is that Finn was supposed to be more important originally. But test audiences liked Poe so much that they hastily redid the story and resurrected Poe from the TIE fighter crash which originally killed him. This is exactly why I hate test audiences and why I think Rian Johnson was right to say it's their job to give us the story *they* want, not the story they think *we* want.
Corn Pone Flicks it would have been cool if it was revealed that the only reason why Finn was able to break his conditioning was that he was force sensitive....
Which inspires him to then see if he can track down more stormtroopers that have evidence of breaking conditioning to see if he could recruit them to the new Jedi Order Rey is building once she gets the very special ancient Jedi texts and the legendary Luke Skywalker to teach them too
Would be great character development to see Finn explain to stormtroopers why they should choose the Resistance after Finn was so selfish in TFA. Sparking a rebellion within the first order that’s built on freedom of thought
"Can Episode 9 save the franchise?" Not with JJ Abrams back at the helm.
Bro
well the notion says so. and what's more embarrassing is that the original script is much, much better.
To be fair Rian Johnson derailed the trilogy really badly
He saved the franchise but the studio gave in to the toxic fans and hired a safe choice
@@jamesward3859 hahahah yes and the fans who fucking fawned over TLJ keep that merch from dying and that major drop hey guess what princess if TLJ had leaked like TROS you would have a worse box office then ROS
You know, you completely managed to capture my love-hate relationship with this movie. I hate it because of its meandering plots and its butchering of Finn, but I love it because of its bold choices when it came to Rey, Kylo and Luke. There's so much about it that I absolutely adore, but there are parts that I wish were never included. I've watched breakdowns both praising and attacking the movie and they've all brought up interesting points that have pushed and pulled me toward one side or the other. Maybe that's my character arc!
What is so interesting or unexpected about Kylo's arc in TLJ. It goes pretty much as you'd expect....other than killing Snoke 2nd movie in....was expecting that one in the 3rd movie
I hope you will read this, Michae, and agree with some of this
The biggest problem for me with TLJ is actually this character arcs
Finn's arc in Force Awakens was from being a coward to being brave in a face of Kylo ren (the same is TLJ except he decided to make a sacrifice)
Kylo Ren in TFA was conflicted but became a fully evil after killing his father (the same arc in TLJ ). He even tried force Rey to join him in TFA
Rey 's arc in TFA was searching for purpose and in the end finding one (the same arc in TLJ)
The movie didn't just rehashed the same tropes and didn't achieved anything. The only actual risk it could took when Rey had choice to join Kylo and "kill the past".
But in the end it's Jedi vs Sith, good vs evil, Resistance vs new order.
Nothing changed, no risks were taken.
This video does a great job of articulating my disappointment in Finn's TLJ arc in comparison to the rest of the movie. We're big fans of your channel; keep up the great work!
Ditto. I've been of two minds on the film and this really locks it down.
Him shouting Rey and immediately trying to escape and find her kind of explained his motivation. But I get how that's not good enough.
Boohoo
My friend went to see the Last Jedi and he told me he had mixed feelings about it.
This is a guy who didn't like Force Awakens but still went and saw it three times at the cinema. Because he's that much of a hardcore fan of Star wars.
He really wanted to spoil the movie to me and I told him that "I'll only see the movie if Snoke isn't killed by Kylo." Because it was pretty damned obvious that it was going to happen.
Okay that sponsorship at the end was pretty clever I'm not going to lie
Indeed... but it also gives a hint of a future RUclips problem: Star Wars makes its money by giving out licenses. So enterprises have to pay lots of money to be allowed to advertise the images of the franchise and also have get every commercial officially nodded off by Disney. A YT uses this imagery on the basis of fair use, which makes sense for a critic or feature, as it is easy to see the difference between journalistic content and the franchise shown. However, with the sponsorship both flows together again and we end up with Star Wars imagery in an commercial, which is part of journalistic content but also not, and therefore fair use but also a licensing issue.
I am not standing on any side there, this is just the first time I have become aware of that problem.
Did not see this coming but this is legit fascinating that a quick joke from a youtuber could have really weirdly huge legal ramifications.
Shame it was for skillshare. They have dodgy business practices like billing people for a years membership before their so called free trial even ends. Nevermind if you sign up to pay monthly or not. Anyone who's interested should beware of this company.
I seriously thought you were going to continue talking about Luke's arc even though you obviously had ended the video.
Lewex The smooth transition into it felt awesome.
Watching this knowing how the franchise ultimately did a heel turn on all of the narrative progress only to fall flat on its face is... disappointing.
'Narrative progress' is too much of a praise. You never move a story forward by undoing everything the previous film(s) and entire universe built.
As someone who knows Star Wars like the back of their fingers, this sequel is abhorrent to the most primitive details.
The Republic has no fleet in the entire galaxy -- that they federalized. In a modern space battle you bring in slower ships than Great Hyperspace War-era SW, 5000 BBY. Ramming the Raddus while in hyperspace ANNIHILATES an entire dreadnought fleet. _What exactly is intelligent or praisable about this movie, if you fail so bad from the get-go?_ EDIT: None of the main characters die on the Snoke Command Ship when it's cut in half IN SPACE. Gravity holds, no major explosion, breathe in outer space? Scripts 101, you are needed.
It doesent matter if you're a Star Wars fan, this movie is the Universe killer.
I really liked, the film but yeah... Finn journey didn't work that well. You made me realise why. Very elaborated video, as always.
Now I get out from the comment section before all hell breaks loose. Good luck!
Thanks! I'm going to try to brave the storm!
What journey? He was part of the plan that got everyone killed. They made him regress.
Indeed, but I think is was that way beacuse tge director wants to do all the arks subversive to the SW canon
They did Finn so dirty he deserved so much better
Finn's arc isn't over. They built him up and will continue to do so in the next film. Albeit, in a different way since it's not the same writer/director this time.
What? Another cliche "heroic sacrifice"? That would've made you happy?
TheN1ghtwalker no his entire arc should’ve been different. They destroyed a character who had so much potential.
Finn and Poe should have gone off on an adventure together and we should’ve seen them build and earn a deeper friendship for each other
I think it had the beats of a great arc: Finn witnesses the oppression of The First Order, witnesses the luxury of freedom from the fight, and makes the choice to fight for the Resistance by overcoming the demons of his past. Hitting these beats, however...
Finn’s arc is a bit muddy, but Rian Johnson lays out his view on it pretty well. In TROS, his arc is being “definitely in the movie.” It would’ve been nice, though, to have that deleted scene in the film.
I just came by to say that this is the best film channel on RUclips, and I think your delivery is amazing! THANKS.
10:02
**laughs in The Rise of Skywalker**
I loved the themes in TLJ that we need true balance. Jedi aren't perfect because they don't use the Force in a balanced way and claim to own the Force. The only thing that didn't click was that subverting expectations doesn't have to be disappointing. Look at Infinity War. The heroes lose Infinity stones over and over and finally fail and the viewer is sad, but not underwhelmed.
Subverting expectations can be good but, when its plot twists just to make the plot less compelling that is where it goes wrong.
It really bothers me that they cut out that scene with Finn and Poe while leaving in scenes like Luke milking the space cow.
That satisfied look on Luke's face as he chugged green milk right in Rey's face is what I live for.
@Randy1012 Agreed. Bad editing.
Lmao are fans really still salty about that 5 second joke? Get over it.
What's wrong with him drinking milk?
Wow. It's crazy how cutting two lines of dialogue from a film can affect the entire thing. I hope they release a director's cut.
Drew Cochran There's a guy named Ivan (Ortega?) that's trying to fix the movie so don't worry.
Honestly a DC of this movie would probably be more Canto Bight considering that's mostly what RJ talks about in the commentary of the film while everyone else just bows to him saying "You're a genius!!"
If we get Jar Jar- I mean Canto Bight right.
darkironyoshi Jar Jar is key to this
Yall are wrong. Caravan of Courage: An Ewok Adventure is the best Star Wars film made EVER.
Vince Major I actually like it, both as a kid and an adult. It's really sweet and they really nailed the adventure part.
The movie should've ended with Kylo and Rey on the ship as it explodes with the Rebels escaping unharmed. Killing off 99% of the Rebels really messes with the tone for the end of this movie. Rey, Finn, and Poe should be wracked with guilt in the final scene since their actions led directly or indirectly to the annihilation of their almost all their friends and allies. Instead the end is a celebration.
If the Rebels escape by the skin of their teeth, but Kylo and Rey were left with an uncertain alliance, that would be a truly daring conclusion. The actual conclusion is essentially the same as Empire, just emotionally inconsistent. Good guys are still good, bad guys are still bad, and next time the Rebels are going to come back and blow up the Empire, with Kylo being redeemed at the last moment probably.
This should have been Kylo's "redemption" and Rey's "fall". Finn should have died and Poe would have to bear the weight of it all happening. At the end of TLJ there was nothing more. The first order and resistance are gone. They can't just pull armies and super weapons out the ass it only been what 20-30 years?
Rey should have turned in this movie. They spent the entire film talking about how the darkness is calling Rey without giving us a single example of it. Every time Rey has a choice to make, she doesn't even hesitate in making the right decision.
Luke should not have died. WTF was that?
Finn didn't have to die, but if he didn't then Rose should have. If she had knocked him out of the way and made the sacrifice instead it would've been better. If she made the sacrifice with him telling her not to, it would've been better. In the latter scenario Rose could become inspiration for him to join the Resistance because of her sacrifice. Also, Finn should have been revealed to have force sensitivity. There were some subtle hints about it in TFA, and they should've followed through.
I've always liked the idea of Kylo Ren killing Snoke and taking over even before TLJ came out, but this was very poor execution of that concept. Snoke's character needed to be fleshed out either a little more or a little less before being killed off. If Kylo kills Snoke, then Rey should've joined him. But what if Kylo didn't have the means to kill Snoke, but also decided not to kill Rey. Then you could have Rey turn on Kylo and join Snoke with Kylo barely escaping with his life.
Think about what we would have to look forward to in SW9 with these changes. Rey is now an undefeated villain with unhinged raw force ability being trained in the Dark Side. Luke has yet another powerful young force user slip through his fingers, and really has no choice but to train Finn to fight back. Kylo's future is completely ambiguous. You could still have pretty much the same movie, but different choices by the characters making a much more exciting climax than Rey lifting some rocks, and so much to be talking about and theorizing for the next movie.
Also, yes. The climax of TLJ was Rey lifting some f*cking rocks. That alone is enough to give this movie an F rating.
The "uncertain alliance" part is a great tension-builder for scenes, since it could take the tropes of the rule of two (Kylo secretly conspiring against his equal, and Rey trying to stay one step ahead)
The main strange point, in my opinion, is how the First Order is much larger and as powerful as the Empire; how Snoke went from a sort of terrorist leader hiding somewhere, to putting himself in harm's way gloating and chasing the remnants of Leia's freedom fighters.
If Rey and Kylo were to be Supreme Leaders, integrating a wounded First Order and the few remaining protagonists, the movie could deal with the Aftermath of striking against the New Republic. Both the Resistance and the First Order are in violation of the New Republic's demilitarisation policies, and both are now responsible for the atrocities that took place in TFA.
If Rey were to get political advice and Jedi training from Leia, and if Kylo were on screen with the original cast (minus Han Solo) for at least one scene, the relationship between this family would be more tangible than the simple "Ben Solo was our son" flavour text.
They weren't really responsible. They made mistakes, but it was the First Order being able to track them through light speed which fucked everything up.
@@nlg070301 ... Was that tracking ability ever explained? And how did the FO suddenly get that ability? A central plot point like that should have been resolved or addressed in some way.
That Kylo Ren twist basically made the movie for me. It's rare for me to watch a movie and have my jaw drop at something I truly didn't expect. I also liked Luke's final act.
Oh man. Last Jedi. Some of the highest highs and lowest lows of the franchise.
Can you name 1 of those "highest highs" please? Because I have not been able to find anything even close to such a thing.
All the Rey, Luke, Kylo and Snoke stuff.
Myself and thousands can name these hghs. Throne room fight scene. Lightspeed suicide (did I really need to type this one?) Luke's projection. Some may see that last one as a low. But the other 2 were badass. It wasn't my fav Star Wars movie. But those scenes were indeed amazing ones in the franchise.
Ignacio Ruiz The throne room fight? The part where we finally witness an apprentice overtaking his master Sith's place, but not as a form of redemption like Darth Vader but more in line with Palpatine? The scene where Holdo lightspeeds through the entire fleet?
I think that TLJ's Finn subplot was superfluous and should be cut out and replaced with something else, but without that TLJ would be great.
Yeah some really good Highs but man those lows....they're pretty rough
10-15 years from now, TLJ will be the only film from the sequel trilogy most people will praise even if they still don't love all of it.
Period
I can take or leave TFA. If TROS is ever on TNT or something, I’m not watching. This is a SW movie I would revisit any day of the week.
@@MrYoyoman12345 LOL. I mean, Suicide Squad is a technical disaster and narratively schizophrenic with forced dialogue that spells everything out for it's audience. TLJ is a technically competent film that makes narrative decisions some people don't like. Considering the split in the general reactions of the film, you cannot say definitively that it is bad nor is it even close to the worst film of the decade. Lmao. Stop being overdramatic. Really? The fucking Emoji movie is better than TLJ? Grow up.
Themes = Good. Execution = Not so good...and why the actual f Holdo didn't say anything...
@@elosodelbosque2248 I don't understand what's so hard to understand about why Holdo doesn't give Poe any information about her plan? She spells it out for you, he's impulsive, dangerous, and the last thing they need right now. Look at Poe's actions in the film. The first thing he does is disobey a direct order to take out the Dreadnought and gets Resistance Fighters killed leaving the rest of them vulnerable to attack with less fighters.
When Finn and Rose offer a solution he sends them on a secret mission which ends up revealing their plans and gets even more people killed. When Poe finds out she's fueling transports he freaks out and then starts a mutiny. Poe's actions get people killed and Holdo is trying to save lives. When Poe is in a situation where he's backed into a corner he acts spontaneously without thinking and his arc is to become a leader and think things through. If it hadn't been for Poe a lot more people would be alive. Would you be willing to tell the guy who just got his whole bomber squadron killed after disobeying a direct order the details of your plan? If he's kept in the dark he's less likely to get more people killed.
You honestly summed up my entire feelings for this whole film. While the subplots aren't that bad in this movie they aren't as interesting. Poe's was slightly interesting because I wanted to get to know him more and see how he was as a character since we only got a glimpse of it in The Force Awakens. Finn's and Rose's subplot wasn't as interesting because all I saw it was as a constant frustration. They find the master codebreaker oh no they get captured and oh yeah they also trust a very obvious shady guy to break into the ship. The only plot I was throughly interested in was the stuff involving Luke, Rey and Kylo. I actually liked how they made Luke a cynical old hermit because it means he's still learning despite not being a young man anymore. He made mistakes he's not the paragon of virtue we made him out to be. He makes mistakes like all of us. My favorite line from this movie is "the greatest teacher failure is" which was said by Yoda's ghost. Kylo is the character that absolutely surprised me in this movie and you already stated my exact opinions on his character arc. I had hope he would turn good and maybe help Rey or act on his feelings for her but it absolutely broke my heart how he was so stuck on killing the past he couldn't move forward and ends the movie practically alone despite being supreme leader and with an army. The woman he's in love with gave up on him, his mother gave up hope on him, his father and uncle were gone. He was truly alone. Rey was also good in terms of a character arc. And unpopular opinion I liked the idea of her family being nobodies because why make a big deal about her ancestry. To me she was just Rey of Jakku, an adorable spunky girl wanting to escape from a desert planet and dreams of becoming a Jedi. I didn't care about her family I was interested in Rey. Kylo's and Rey's relationship development was also my favorite parts of this movie. Their force connections were always something I looked forward to when watching the movie. I love how they are forced to confront each other and how their force connections go from anger to understanding and reaching out for a common ground and companionship which leads to the amazing scenes in the throne room. From the death of snoke to their awesome fight in the throne room. Adam and Daisy had such great chemistry and they also showed their amazing talent as actors. It's why I enjoyed this movie despite the subplots being much to be desired.
I hav often wondered why parents, relatives, teachers, mentors etc. who failed you never see their errors and never apologize. Watching and hearing Luke apologizing to his nephew was cathartic.
"parents, relatives, teachers, mentors etc. who failed you"
Failed you how exactly? What metric are we using to determine their failure? How do we know it's a failure on the elder's part and not a failure on the part of the other person to learn and/or understand?
@@Jaslath Everybody makes mistakes. Everybody. But the ones who are supposed to be in the wrong, who must see the errors in their ways, who have to bow down and apologize, in my experience are always the children, the pupils. Authority figures are usually frightened to death of losing their cool. Few are strong and wise enough to realize that treating their children or pupils at eye level is not a sign of failure but of maturity, and on the long run, much more efficient for both sides. The Old Republic Jedi were convinced to be always right. That's what brought their downfall.
@@Pomoscorzo What? I believe what you are trying to talk about is called accountability.
If you’re the student, you have to be accountable to yourself for your success and failure AND you are also accountable to the person attempting to mentor you.
No one OWES you anything, including any apology for your failures.
It’s incredibly narcissistic to think that a mentor has any obligation to mentor you.
As a mentor, if you choose to be a mentor, you are typically the type of person that holds themselves to a higher standard and you blame yourself for you students failures, because you have personal accountability, it’s why you have chosen to become a mentor.
If most of the people you mentor are successful, you don’t owe an apology to the few who fail.
If the few who fail think you owe them an apology, then you know why they failed.
If your Uncle comes in your room late at night while you’re sleeping & attempts to assault you, they should apologize.
The “Luke” who did that in TLJ, is NOT Luke Skywalker.
Rian Johnson does OWE us all an apology for that.
Rian Johnson was trusted with something very important to people and he threw it in a dumpster and lit it on fire for completely selfish reasons.
At the end of the day, it wasn’t his to destroy.
Before the video: PROS. Original. Cool beginning. Looked good.
CONS: Only poorly written new characters. Keeping the mains alive in stupid ways. Felt like it had no purpose in the end.
Doing the opposite and only the opposite of what people expect is exactly the reason the movie is not well written . You can not have a doctrine when crafting a story . If you don’t let things naturally flow you will create a failure . Does that mean you can’t create surprises? Oh course not but the fact that Rian Johnson wrote the film with the doctrines “let the past die” and “do the opposite of what they expect “ did two things: it put the movie in a box and it also is just lazy writing . What’s easier? Pretending the past didn’t happened and creating your own history with no limitations. Or still using the past events and changing how you think about it , while still making sense to what came before . Last Jedi was poorly written . Plain and simple .
Subversion for the sake of subversion, that is about what I would expect from a film director who is only really famous for one other, extremely mediocre time travel movie.
It's little harsh but I do think you have a point on general grounds. I don't think he did quite the opposite of what people expected though.
He did and he hasn't been silent about that fact at all. Hamill also stated that Rian's goal was doing what *they* wanted to do.
He was focused on messing with expectations, not with making an excellent SW movie.
Kyrielsh1 honestly, as a writer I don’t condone saying what I said as harshly as I put it normally . That being said, Rian Johnson has been very egotistical since the backlash. He has said that he doesn’t believe not a single thing said about his film is accurate and that people are being “babies” . He also thinks it’s his best movie . This kind of reaction really makes me mad as an aspiring director and writer and makes it even more clearly why it’s such a bad movie . Ego from the director is cancer for a movie . The best movies are from directors who know it’s not perfect.
Damn. Watching that deleted scene of Finn and Poe made me more than a little annoyed because it felt like such a missed opportunity. He just needed a few tweaks to his story arc and his journey would have been a lot more compelling to watch.
I agree...that was the one that I was surprised wasn't in the final cut.
10:57 "it'd be cool to learn a new ability without my mentor monologuing about how his past failures brought about a new era of darkness in the universe" That was one of the best prompt for Skill Share ad
I'd be able to give these two movies so much more in terms of props if Rey had earned the power she has. It just irks me to see her make minimal mistakes and overcome almost anything with ease, whereas Luke and non kid Anakin struggled at every turn and got their assess handed to them when they failed. Rey is a Mary sue. No other way of putting it.
Last Jedi was so boring, illogical and the humor ruined any suspense there might have been. The characters weren't given enough time to develop or make me care about them and while Luke in a New Hope and Empire, had a clear personality and motivation, Rey is just going along for no reason at all, being awesome at everything while being barely trained by Luke. This movie is such a fail.
After viewing the complete trilogy, I now believe it's true main character is Kylo Ren.
They invested very little thought in fleshing out Rey's character and motivation, and less in setting up conflicts with her personal beliefs that could lead to character resolutions and change.
It all revolves around the Skywalker family.
This last trilogy is all about his nephew, and his struggle between the light and the dark side, before finally doing the right thing and redeeming himself.
And like in all the good operatic tragedies, the main character dies heroically.
He follows more or less Darth Vader's , with the difference he was brainwashed for a dozen of years, and Darth Vader was for more than twenty.
"Forcing Change" - Nice, I see what you did there...
Great video, there are clear flaws with the movie, and I’m sad that some people dismiss this and say this criticism is sexist and racist when it’s really flawed writing. When watching, I did enjoy some of the twists, but the plot holes were too much for me.
TLJ ultimately to me is an insecure movie that never fully commits to its own beliefs - often lacking reason or consequence for decisions that ultimately only happen for their own sake. Nobody really fails, nobody really grows, we are asked to look within but not long enough to learn anything from it.
Just Write also just did a last jedi video. Weird coincidence. lol
yeah, and ive unsubbed from him too.
Randomicus wow
I liked this one better. It was more thoughtful than "Psha, you just don't get it."
Randomicus thinks he's edgy
Randomicus younmust be dumb
I can't wait for your video essay on Episode IX.
But The Last Jedi didn't let the past die. It was an empty sentiment. The trilogy is still going to end in a Jedi battle. It's still rebels vs the empire but with new names. The moment I was excited for something new was after the throne room fight and Kylo reached out his hand and asked Rey to join him. What if she did. Kylo and Rey controlling the First Order or disbanding it. It would have been incredible and no one would know how 9 would end but we all know how 9 is going to end now..... Real bummer.
how did rey know how to swim after living her whole life on Jakku?
Dark Highwayman Cause in Disney's/Kathleen Kennedy's eyes the Force is magic and with the Force as magic, Rey can do it all without any training.
I forgot that the force is female magic. How silly of me.
Because Rey is a "Mary Sue" character. Perfect at everything and no drawbacks
The same way she understand wookie in the movie but Luke doesn´t.
Despite Luke having known Chewy and Han for literal YEARS
Been hoping you'd drop a video on The Last Jedi sooner or later. This is a good day.
I find it really interesting how people read "Let the past die"
Covering it in my Last Jedi video in a few weeks 👍
Breaking Banter Awesome, can't wait for your video!
I love The Last Jedi, but I know it's not perfect. I'm always open to listening to people who can back up their opinions with something better than "TLJ sucked"
DavidtheWavid TLJ sucked
I'm genuinely curious as to what other people saw in this movie. I just couldn't look past the incessant and inescapable plot holes and conveniences that make up the entire plot. For example, Finn specifically discussed the hyperspace tracker with Leia. Then seconds later he and Leia both comment about how it's impossible for the First Order to track them through hyperspace. Then a few minutes later, Finn remembers that he used to be the janitor who worked in the specific room where the hyperspace tracker was kept.
And what about Poe's arc? How does it make sense that destroying the dreadnought was a bad move? The pilots agreed with his decision, at the time. Later, the dreadnought would have killed the Resistance fleet had it not been destroyed, earlier.
And why didn't the First Order have its own bombers? Why didn't they just use their TIE fighters to destroy the Resistance fleet? The script mentions only that the fleet had moved out of range of the First Order ships - but Kylo had already destroyed their hangar so they couldn't launch fighters to counter TIE fighters, and Kylo had just proved that their TIE fighters were a significant threat to the Resistance.
And let's not even get into the travails of Canto Bight, the utter schlock that was the battle on Craight, and the mutiny sub-plot, or the assassination of Luke and Leia's characters.
MasterofOssus people love trash, it’s why there’s a billion transformers and slasher sequels people don’t care about good movies which is why tlj did as well as it did at first
TLJ actually did pretty poorly in the box office after the first week. If you look at the weekly returns, it lost roughly half of the revenue compared to the glorious [/sarcasm] movie that was Force Awakens, after Week 1. TLJ's Blu-Ray sales are down by more than 50% from Force Awakens. Solo was a bomb - largely because of backlash from TLJ. Toy sales aren't reported as revenue and they're across multiple lines (e.g., Hasbro, Hot Wheels, Lego, etc.), but container shipments for Last Jedi toys were down by more than 50% from Force Awakens and are anecdotally known to have sat on shelves for many months.
I'm not trying to argue, though, that TLJ wasn't successful and therefore bad: I don't really care at this point.
The question that I have is for the people who DID enjoy TLJ - what were they seeing in the film? Write Stuff just acknowledged that he couldn't make a positive case for why anyone could have enjoyed it - he could only show that the questions were answerable (sort of?) and so the movie didn't fail at the absolute outset. But... how does anyone think that the film executed properly once that (incredibly low) hurdle was crossed? That is the part that I'm really struggling to understand.
I honestly cannot imagine anyone who watches that movie and thinks that it is good, and so I'm very confused by this perspective.
NinjaTyler i think that's what's so tragic here. People act like star wars fans are toxic. But this was one of the most loyal and hopeful fan bases on history. This is a fan base that stuck around through the prequels. And even after TFA was trash they still shelled out over a billion dollars on this dumpster fire. Disney literally killed the best fan base in the history of Cinema by cash grabbing.
So, a thought on TLJ: everyone I seems to think it's all about letting the past die completely, but I don't think it is. I think the idea of The Last Jedi is to respect the past, but not to be completely defined by it. The movie itself seems to say that as directly as it can - the Yoda scene seems to be all about burning the past down (Yoda destroys the Jedi texts), but it subverts that (turns out Rey took them).
The Yoda scene should have been cut, because it makes Luke's decision to rejoin the battle not comprehendable.
How so? Forgive me if I'm having a bit of trouble remembering.
+thewriter1008 Luke's motivation for rejoining the fight is because Rey shames him and inspires him. This is a lot clearer with the pretty good village scene that they shouldn't have deleted, but you get this impression during their confrontation in the rain, if the viewer is paying close intention and picks it up out of everything that is going on and being said, but it's more vague (and puts more of a stress on him being a potential child murderer without the village scene). But he doesn't go help right away and instead tries to burn the books for very unclear reasons. Then Yoda shows up and talks to him about teaching Rey failure, so it seems like this scene somehow leads him to go to Crait. Maybe the burning of the books somehow releases him from his attachment to the Jedi, but he shows up on Crait in Jedi robes in the form of himself when he was a younger Jedi Master, and since Yoda does it, it robs Luke of agency. It makes Luke's arc a garbled mess and was apparently put in the movie for stupid fan service. This is one scene they definately should have cut, and they shouldn't have taken out the village scene which makes Luke and Rey's story clearer and meaningful. People believe the real reason they took out the village scene is that it makes it clearer that Rey (sort of) has flaws. It shows her unthinkingly going into battle which ties into her rediculous decision to try to save Kylo and Luke and Poe's failures. It's one of the very few times Rey is an interesting character.
+thewriter1008 Also in the Yoda and Luke scene, they make it sound like Luke goes back into action to save and possibly train Rey, but this doesn't happen. Instead Luke goes to save the rebels, and he must know somehow that Rey is safe and will save the rebels. It doesn't fit and is confusing.
Mark J Literally nothing in this mess makes sense lol. The movie has no clue what it's doing.
Daring doesn’t always mean good, though.
Exactly, even though most of the critic reviews seemed to think it does.
Exactly. I could construct a scene where Rey takes a 10 minute long shit halfway through the movie. Nobody would have guessed that scene would be in the movie!! So does that make it good??
Lmao fuck no
this was a great critique. rey and kylo were my favorite part of the movie and overall i liked it, but it left me feeling strange after watching it unlike the force awakens. i agree with most if what you've brought up, especially after listening to the commentary and watching the deleted scenes. thank you for a balanced and good commentary!
I'm still baffled over how Snoke managed to get close enough to manipulate Kylo and turn him to the dark side in the first place. Did he just infiltrate his mind? Was he a former teacher at Luke's school? How did he even know about Kylo?
So many questions we will never have.
My one wish in the amazing scene in the throne room is that I wish Rey didn’t immediately make a move for the lightsaber - what was she going to do with it? She wasn’t going to kill Ben with it, preparing to fight her way out in preparation for how Ben might react to her saying no? Possibly. But I feel she owed Ben more than that. He killed his master and risked his life to save her and yes, offered her a throne of a tyrannical first order, but Ben doesn’t seem to care much at all about the first order - so I’m really excited to see what the hell he is going to do now that he has control. I have a feeling he’s going to try to destroy everything including the first order and the resistance and maybe Rey will change his mind.
Love this. Wonderful video Michael!
Wooh! Both you guy's channels are awesome!
Hey I'd love to see you guys post more regularly!
They forced change so hard that no one watched Solo
+Trey That's the change - Star Wars fans don't care anymore. That's no easy task but they did it.
"let the box office money die" ^^
I did! Me and... the five other people total in my showing...
Pretty much everyone I talk to is in agreement when it comes to one thing about TLJ: the relationship and story between Kylo and Rey is incredible and by far the best part of this new trilogy. I loved other parts of it, but god, the entire throne room scene is so satisfying, both from an action perspective and from the perspective of getting to see two incredibly well-written characters finally interact in a deeply meaningful way.
Finally. A good negative critique that doesn't consist of a cascade of small nitpicks about irrelevant details without connection to the core themes.
Let me emphasize this: you just earned my subscription by bashing my favorite Star Wars film. If that's not a testament to the quality of your channel, I don't know what it is.
Thank you, I truly appreciate hearing that.
LukeTheRebel 18 I don't really have a reason, it just made me so excited in the theater. Me and my friends really connected with it and loved all it was doing. We jumped at every plot twist and trembled with emotion in every action scene. The jokes connected very well too.
I don't know, I guess it just happened to cater for our tastes. It also helped that I was aware that TFA had all this "let the past die" subtext and that helped me understand the themes of the movie.
Admittedly we detected some of the errors within the film and cringed especially at Leia's and Rose's infamous moments. But we interpreted it as "oh they slipped a bit there in this otherwise fantastic movie". It did at no point make us think "oh god please help us end this torture I'd rather commit suicide than continue watching this" like it apparently did for so many people.
PS: what minority are you talking about twitter.com/emrhys129/status/1009826822446616576?s=19
LukeTheRebel 18 I didn't really have a favorite until TLJ. I wasn't even a fan, my feelings for the franchise didn't surpass the mild sympathy level. "Haha it's a fun franchise."
Interestingly enough all the people I've seen who loved TLJ the most had no special reverence for the series beforehand
DoctorXander My friends did.
Videos like this scare me. This is exactly why writing is so hard. there's no rule on what makes something good/bad, no matter what you do - people will criticize it and you can't just write what _you like_ without worrying _what's good_ .
Of course there are rules. Just keep internal logic, maintain characterisation, have scenes serve the story. If these things are sound, the rest is more or less judged subjectively. Rian Johnson fucked all of those up.
@@spenser9908 wow, great argument. Very compelling 🙄
So far, Kylo Ren is the best part part of this new trilogy.
No one can make a video about such a divisive movie, and get the love from close to everyone. Respect. Also make a great video.
Even if I don't like the movies you talk about, I still check out all your videos!
Thanks!
Watched TLJ four times and I hated Finn’s arc more every time :/
I feel sorry for you having to watch that train wreck of a film four times.
haha my lil bro disagrees. pray for me
I agree with this video that Kylo has the strongest arc. Though, I'd argue he's got the only real arc. This movie has so many good ideas in it, powerful and able to be magnified. Yet, the way those ideas are put together is done terribly so.
The plot devices weren't able to hold suspension of disbelief, the tone was very odd and ill-befitting, much of the characters do not even get much development, and while Johnson does have knowledge of Star Wars, he unapologetically used that to poke the eyes of the fans.
Subversion is absolutely okay, and even encouraged at times. I was so happy when Rey's parents were nobody. But subversion at the cost of better writing isn't a good thing.
At 8:42, if Rian truly said that, then his method of subverting expectations is intrinsically flawed. To subvert your audience's expectations in a story you tell, your job is not to give the audience what you, personally, want. In Rian's case, he thought his job was to act in direct opposition towards and sometimes in spite of the audience (as his "Your Snoke theory sucks" tweet clearly shows). The writer's job is to provide the subversion in the form of something new and interesting that the audience never knew they wanted.
Though I wouldn't wish Rian's position on anyone, for the most part, Rian's answer to every question raised in The Force Awakens was, "it was nothing." TLJ was represents his adamant refusal to answer audience expectations, not his attempt to subvert them.
"I dunno lol." -Rian Johnson, 2018 (colorized)
KingKamor2 Yup, well said. Fuck Ruin Johnson 🤢
@@MalcomXlax The Last Rian Johnson Film
He answered the questions that needed to be answered. I don't want every single question to be answered as it takes away the mystery from the movies.
@King7 This
Best TLJ deconstruction I've ever seen. Thank you!
this just reinforces how much i love the last jedi
There's a difference between moving on "letting the past die", and killing the past which is what these films feel like they're doing
I will never forget the feeling I felt while watching TFA. It was the only time as an adult (I’m now 34) where I literally felt like a kid who was swept up into an adventure where I completely and totally forgot about my life outside the movie. I’ve had amazing theater experiences in my adult life such as Casino Royale for example where it rivaled how I felt during and after TFA, but never reaching it. The only feeling I can compare it to was when I was a kid who watched Jurassic Park for the first time in the movies and it was just....magic. And that’s how I’ll always remember TFA. I also loved TLJ and felt it took off from TFA in unexpected but also many ways I expected like Rey and Ben having a deeper relationship. And Ben Solo is one of the best characters in recent memory - and the more I think of it that HE is the legacy character of the new trilogy - just as important as Rey, so where we followed Luke the hero in the OT we are following Ben’s story where he started out on the other side - where his story will end I don’t know. But he IS the Legacy character of this story - he is the culmination of everything Solo and Skywalker and so what happens to him will be the “Skywalker legacy” of the new trilogy.
It really does feel like the whole casino plot was included by a separate writer.
Mayeur000Donz
I think it was there to set up for new plots in future movies. The reason it was so long is also to not risk leaving people in the dark for that new plot and to have enough exposition to make a more meaningful when they start coming up.
that's really assuming that there's a sense of continuity between the movies and not just "ok, I've left enough hooks now, you go finish it."
Jeroz
I think there’s already a sense on where they want this to go and end.
kylo's arc is just a repeat of his arc in the force awakens, though. he struggles between light and dark during the whole movie just to end up on the dark side by the end of it. how's that compelling?
Mackie Messer
If that's all you see in Kylo's arc then I'm not surprised you don't find it compelling, but there is so much more there. Tl;dr at the bottom, but again, there's a lot more to it.
TFA tells the story of a powerful monster who becomes more human as the story progresses. At his weakest, most human point, he attempts to make himself a monster for a master that literally towers over him by cutting his connection to his past. This makes him a monster once more, but a weak one, and is defeated.
TLJ starts with Kylo being weak. He is aggressively shamed by his master, a man who no longer physically dominates him yet clearly holds all the power. He loses the mask to stop pretending to be a monster (as he was throughout TFA) and actually become one. He tries to show Rey that he is a monster, but through their connection he comes to accept the fact that all he is is afraid of his relationship to the past-his grandfather and father, his old and new master. This leads to the throne room scene where, for the first time, he directly stands against the master who had been abusing him, who he had been entirely subservient to. However, he cannot truly kill the past, only seeking to grab the power it offers, the power he has been denied his whole life. Rey sees through this and Kylo, now on a path he believes to be his own but is actually one played out time and time again, tries to take revenge. Luke acts as a symbol of the fact that Kylo is not killing his past, instead striking straight through it, only serving to allow the past to inspire the a genuinely new future as the resistance escapes.
Tl;dr
Powerful monster->submissive student->human->pretend monster->failure and
failure->attempting to be a monster->realising that you aren't->overcoming your submission->failing to follow what you claim to are not the same arc, at all.
Kylo and Ren are by far the best part of the movie. The plot doesnt make much sense and the villain is taken out in such a lame and cheesy way "strike your true opponent".
I liked your video but for me the movie doesnt work at all, subverting expectations is a good thing if done right but I feel like they ruined a lot of things that were set up in ep 7 without adding much of value. Hyperlight ramming was visually stunning but doesnt make any sense in the starwars universe.
Man, you're so good at analyzing movies detailing everything, good or bad, in such an understandable way. 👏✌👊
beautifully stated. Look forward to the next installment, both Star Wars, and your videos.
I'm a bit late here, but just wanted to say that this was written and argued brilliantly. It's pleasant to see a video that looks at both sides of the spectrum, and does not have the words "CINEMATIC FAILURE" in the title.
Thank you.
Adam Driver's Kylo Ren is nothing short of spectacular. Really blown away by him.
You asked such deep questions at the end. Bravo! I have no clue what to expect from this next film
IMO, Kylo Ren's arc doesn't work because we have no idea what is causing his inner conflict. Anakin fell to the dark side because of a series of tragic events in his life and Palpatine's subtle manipulation. Ben Solo apparently had two loving parents and a wise teacher (who was also his uncle) and yet was somehow "manipulated" telepathically by Snoke, someone he had never met and had no reason to trust, into becoming evil. There may be more to explain his progression, but until it's revealed (and I'm not sure it will be) there is nothing realistic about his character.
Before the prequels we didnt know why Vader turned to the darkside. We only know that he was seduced by Palpatine.
I actually think we can infer quite a bit from what we're given, and imo it's quite plausible that Luke, Leia and Han could all fail Ben while remaining consistent as characters. TFA revealed that Han and Leia didn't make it as a couple, which is not only plausible but inevitable. A brilliant, deeply moral political leader and a charismatic quasi-asshole would never last together (I find the EU version of their relationship to be totally unrealistic and too cute by half), and between their bickering and eventual separation, Han's desire to return to his scoundrel days due to his fear of emotional intimacy, and Leia's responsibilities as one of the founders of the New Republic, they could both easily be absentee parents while still genuinely caring about their son (that happens a lot in real life). Meanwhile Luke, who at this point may have bought into his own hype a bit too much based off what he says in TLJ, saw Ben not as his nephew to care for, not as a young boy with emotional needs, but as a student to be molded and essentially the successor to a dynasty. Good people with the best of intentions can still fail others because they are too caught up in the machinations of their own lives. It's safe to assume that Snoke simply stepped into this emotional vacuum around Ben, and manipulated an extremely vulnerable child into thinking that no one else understands him (again, lots of real life examples of adults preying on minors this way). Snoke could tempt him with visions of Vader, and twist it to seem like Ben could fulfill a legacy and a destiny of his own choosing, rather than those others were attempting to thrust upon him. Ben probably saw his confrontation with Luke as the final nail in the coffin, a confirmation of all the resentments Snoke had stoked within him, and decided to fully embrace the Dark Side, because it offered an acceptance that he was desperate to find in his elders, and never quite received.
And if you think I am reading into all this far more than what was put on screen, well, welcome to Star Wars.
Maybe the more powerful in the Force one is, the greater the temptation from the Dark Side? With Luke's own moment of weakness being what sent Ben over the edge.
@@dlein93 Other reason is that he got pressured from being a member of the Skywalker lineage.
@@KingArthur39 that isn't true, we are shown in "a new hope" that he craves power. Recall, "the ability to destroy a planet is insignifigant next to the power of the force." We learn in the prequels, he wanted power to stop his loved ones from dying, it is a very simple motivation.
I dunno what Kylo Ren is motivated by. I thought it was power, but the movie suggested he cared more about emulating vader.
I not sure if this is a perfect comparison, but when I think of "subverting expectations" by trying something new, I think of Casino Royale.
But then I also think of a very underrated movie, Mission impossible 4, a film where it instead of continuing the "action blockbuster" feel of 2 & 3, it decides to be an spy-thriller where teamwork is the answer to the problem (same can be said about 5) like in the original one, not just "Tom Cruise being awesome".
So I'm a little torn, because while rewriting the basics of a series in order to do something unexpected and making a greater film can be great (especially for reboots), the audience sometimes does understands exactly what they want from a film series so returning back to character can still be very well received.
At the end of the day, the movie has to be good, thats how Indiana Jones 4 and Creed can be received so different from their core audiences.
Casino Royale (the third version) was a reboot after the original Bond films had effectively finished. Fans weren't bothered by that. The Mission Impossible films were a complete reboot of the TV series so it could go in whatever direction it wanted. I haven't watched any past the first film but it sounds like the later films are more in line with the TV series.
And Indy 4 wasn't so bad if you played Indiana Jones and the Infernal Machine. (The best Indy game ever.)
These are great comparisons. I don't remember if I've seen Mission Impossible 2 or 3, but 4 and 5 are both excellent. Casino Royale and Creed were different from expectations set up before in a way that made for great films, while still feeling like they were connected to what came before.
On the other hand, Kingdom of the Crystal Skull and The Last Jedi both throw out the rules of the universe for the sake of making something new...At least the new Solo movie was pretty good, and I think that's largely because it follows previously established rules of the universe while expanding on them.
If the message of the film is let the past die it’s a muddled message at best...
Disney would like the audience to let the past die so they can go in new directions but then again they can’t. The past is their cash cow and the plan on milking for all it’s worth.
Something we see in the film. The film constantly tells us to let the past die, but then ends with legend of Luke Skywalker spreading allowing for a new generation to be inspired by his actions and potentially rise up to become the new rebellion.
It’s easy to see Rian Johnson sees himself as the kid with broom at the end.
The new generation of filmmakers all inspired by Star Wars now they get to create it and they want to do something new. But they don’t want you to compare it to the past? Yet they constantly make films that’s derivative of the past? I don’t get it.
The only reason why Disney can go on making Star Wars is because the audience will keep showing up...
If this was another film series, or book series. It would have died. But the Star Wars fan base will watch a bad Star Wars film over and over again trying to understand what went wrong and the fragmented elements of what they liked.
Phantom Menace is a perfect example of this, smash box office run but the most hated Star Wars film...
Until the audience can truly let the past die, and realize that the new films will never be as good and stop watching the new films... Disney will just continue playing on nostalgia offering very little that’s new, inventive and mythic.
Let the Past Die. Also watch Rogue One which is about the exciting past!
Let the Past Die. We canceled The Clone Wars...and then we brought it back.
A lot of people have a problem with how Holdo was written and how she didn’t tell Poe what her plan was. In my opinion, Holdo didn’t tell anyone what her plan was because she planned on sacrificing herself to save them and she knew Poe and especially Leia would not agree with it regardless of it being the greater good.
Watching this movie was really painful for me... Up until TLJ, every Star Wars movie had a selling point in it, including the prequels. TPM had Darth Maul, AoTC had Yoda having a lightsaber duel for the first time ever, and RoTS being about the turning of Anakin to Vader. Those moments kinda balanced out the disappointing aspects for me personally and i was still content with them.
When i left the theater after TLJ, i was really torn because i didn't actually 'hate' a Star Wars movie up until that point, and i thought it was impossible for a Star Wars movie to disappoint me as it did especially after watching the early teasers and trailers which were really deceiving. I was trying to make up reasons to like this movie and the 2 reasons i could scrounge was the Throne Room battle and the lightspeed kamikaze scene. I was initially excited by them but then i realised, is that really the best Rian Johnson could offer? Instead of Rey and Kylo (or Luke) teaming up to battle Snoke, they kill off Snoke with a lame maneuver and went on to fight dispensable red armored guards. And the lightspeed kamikaze was really something that broke the lore for me even though it was a beautiful shot.
It took me a whole week to really come to the conclusion that this movie was really a mess from every angle imaginable. Story was awful and boring, new characters Rose and Holdo were beyond boring and annoying and Luke, the character most of us even went to watch this movie for, was totally wasted. It thoroughly ruined my anticipation and excitement for the next installment as I really have nothing to look forward to. I really wish i could like this movie but i can't.
This comment shows what's wrong with a huge chunk of the Star Wars fanbase. Darth Maul wasn't a good character in any way, he was just badass looking. The battle itself looked badass, but there was no emotional element to it to justify it's epicness. Only in the last minute it becomes emotional due to the direct result of Qui dieing in the battle itself. It does not compare to any of the original battles, which had (emotional) conflict / build up to them. Why were they even fighting in the first place? Who is Darth Maul? What would the fight even accomplish, it felt extremely out of place with the whole battle going on. Darth Maul wasn't the key officer of the invading robots or anything. He was just kinda there, so we could have an 'epic' fight, in which nobody knows what's going on or what the stakes are.
You also mentioned yoda with a lightsaber as a possitive, while it was most certainly one of the worst elements that came from the prequels. It killed Yoda's character completely. Go whatch the Plinket reviews for a very thorough explanation of it.
Star Wars isn't about giving the fans cool shit. Ofcourse, TFA was all about that. It was fan pandering to the extreme. It even made Anakins(and Luke's) lightsaber 'special'. Which shows another horribile element of the fanbase; it's tendency to glorify and/or iconize anything to a sacred status in the Star Wars universe. The problem is that the fact that a saber is owned by some important character isn't really important IN the universe, but it is somehow important to the fans because they love that character. This shows that the lightsaber in TFA was fan pandering. Out of nowhere that lightsaber is super important and has magical force powers, eventhough it didn't have them when Luke got it, the freaking son of Anakin himself. It was only there to make things seems more substantive to the audience, because the audience do think it's relevant, because they are fans of those older movies and everything about them. A cheap trick to make things seem important and deep, by using the fandom and letting it seep into the storyline. That's why R.J. made a joke out of it in TLJ, because it was so dumb and fan pandering.
This really says it all for me. I walked out of the theatre after TLJ feeling really happy because I liked the good parts enough that the lesser parts hadn't really bugged me, and then afterwards I got a better sense of its flaws. Glad to see a review that talks about both.
Probably the most fair TLJ video I have ever seen in a while, great job on this
Agreed. I know it's not a perfect film. But we've been debating it for 6 months. It's that deep
Exactly it’s a real review so many “reviews” for TLJ are just a bunch of annoying nitpicks and angry comments of my fan theory didn’t come true.
if that's what you reallly think, then you haven't watched a lot of TLJ reviews.
People are not debating it because "it's that deep". It's because some people accept the movie's flaws and others don't. But the flaws are there. That's not being deep. That's being a bad movie within a franchise with a huge fanbase with people who will give it more leeway than other movies just because it's SW.
@@EziooAuditore Not really. I'm sure there's the odd person who thinks TLJ is perfect, but most TLJ-supporters I've seen agree that the movie has flaws.
Alex is right. The reason there's so much disagreement over this film is that it has strengths *and* weaknesses, and people disagree over which outweighs the other. Neither side are strawmen who think it's all good or all bad. (Well, mostly...).
Personally I find TLJ an ambitious film that didn't execute its ideas as well as it could have, but was overall one of the better films in the Star Wars franchise...