The Return of the Old Gods : The Theology Pugcast Episode 225
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- Опубликовано: 18 сен 2024
- Today’s Pugcast is a discussion of Naomi Wolfe’s Substack piece, “Have the Old Gods Returned?” which is a reflection and development of the ideas in Jonathan Cahn’s The Return of the Gods. The premise is that with the rejection of Christianity, God’s protection over the Western world has been withdrawn and the old gods-demonic entities that were pushed to the margins by Christianity-have now returned. The guys discuss some specifics of the pieces and reflect on the biblical and historic Christian ideas of the demonic and its influence on culture. A resurgence of demonic activity may be the best explanation for the unprecedentedly rapid spread of cultural and social chaos and the way governments, education, media, and big tech are marching in lockstep across the globe to promote these destructive ideologies and practices.
Naomi Wolfe's Substack article: naomiwolf.subs...
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God doesn't "need" angels. He wants angels. Another excellent broadcast. I wish more reformed (and non-reformed) people would take note.
nope... your god needed them. that's why your theology says he created them. they are messengers, warriors, delivers of blessings and curses.... yes, your god "needed" them
Great podcast! Thank you so much!
Yep, you guys are spot on here. Romans 8:38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, 39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. James 4:7 Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.
Wow! I’m only 12min into this and it’s wonderful😃!! Can’t wait to finish this during my morning routine!
Excellent podcast!
In light of the opening of the 2024 Olympic Games prayer to Apollo and Zeus, I think this episode needs a part 2
Oh how interesting… Well, Gaia does not consent to a battle on her lands, Cassandra was born with prophetic sight, The Acacia Wood Tabernacle is a person, and the olympians and titans forgot about the primordials and celestials. I agree, a part two would be great! Or a part three four or five :)
Thank you! I've been sharing with other Christians the origins of the Olympic games. There's a reason why these games were banned in 393ad by Theodosius l. I've learned so much about these religious games, and Christians are falling victim to their own ignorance.
Great podcast guys.
good stuff gentleman
Good conversation! Thank you, gentlemen.
Amazing work guys
I get it and I need to learn more.
It's also interesting to me that we don't want to risk saying someone is possessed because we're trained to see that as offensive toward the individual. But, if anything, it seems the opposite should be true, because if the person is really possessed, then we're in essence saying, "it's not you."
If he's connecting Baal to Jupiter as a storm god, is it possible that a parallel today would be *Climatism*?
It’s boggling that y’all are up for believing in the existence of demons but none of you think the climate crisis is real?! The difference between renewable and nonrenewable fuels is not trivial!!
One God....many fallen powers macerating as gods
a return of the cult of Odin would be sinister. one of the weaknesses of current thinking of demonic influence, is a strong tendency to polarise it; either one is wholly possessed, or completely free. in truth there is a great spectrum of influence, from vaguely unwholesome inclinations or inhibitions, to thoughts and passions, all the way to full possession. one word is 'demonisation' as a description for the whole spectrum. 'temptation' is a big part of this progression.
we never left.... we just stopped hiding and became more known in public
Extrapolating from something Tom said, in Christian schools, ccolleges, universities, and seminaries, why aren't there Christian focused courses rather than secular equivalents (i.e., Biblical biology, Biblical sociology, Biblical economics, etc.)?
The cults rebuild the structures of fragmented aspects of the deities. They assign incorrect names which hold incorrect frequencies. They ultimately conjure the dark aspects into themselves while the light aspects seek balance. Then they project the darkness with intent onto others… but it always has to come back to source… the boomerang ain’t fun
I wonder if there would be an "old god" heading up the environmental movement. Similar uncanny organizational elements going on there.
Baal was the god of the weather. Wikipedia: "Ugaritic records show him as a weather god, with particular power over lightning, wind, rain, and fertility. The dry summers of the area were explained as Baʿal's time in the underworld and his return in autumn was said to cause the storms which revived the land. Thus, the worship of Baʿal in Canaan-where he eventually supplanted El as the leader of the gods and patron of kingship-was connected to the regions' dependence on rainfall for its agriculture, unlike Egypt and Mesopotamia, which focused on irrigation from their major rivers. Anxiety about the availability of water for crops and trees increased the importance of his cult, which focused attention on his role as a rain god."
I believe him it's True.
Timely
This verse came to mind:
13 And I saw, coming out of the mouth of the dragon and out of the mouth of the beast and out of the mouth of the false prophet, three unclean spirits like frogs. 14 For they are demonic spirits, performing signs, who go abroad to the kings of the whole world, to assemble them for battle on the great day of God the Almighty. (Revelation 16:13-14, ESV)
Interesting point about Reformed thinking at 49:34
Monergism/Symergism??
God is gracious to include angels (and us) in his works!
As I pass through my incarnations in every age and race,
I make my proper prostrations to the Gods of the Market Place.
Peering through reverent fingers I watch them flourish and fall,
And the Gods of the Copybook Headings, I notice, outlast them all.
We were living in trees when they met us. They showed us each in turn
That Water would certainly wet us, as Fire would certainly burn:
But we found them lacking in Uplift, Vision and Breadth of Mind,
So we left them to teach the Gorillas while we followed the March of Mankind.
We moved as the Spirit listed. They never altered their pace,
Being neither cloud nor wind-borne like the Gods of the Market Place,
But they always caught up with our progress, and presently word would come
That a tribe had been wiped off its icefield, or the lights had gone out in Rome.
With the Hopes that our World is built on they were utterly out of touch,
They denied that the Moon was Stilton; they denied she was even Dutch;
They denied that Wishes were Horses; they denied that a Pig had Wings;
So we worshipped the Gods of the Market Who promised these beautiful things.
When the Cambrian measures were forming, They promised perpetual peace.
They swore, if we gave them our weapons, that the wars of the tribes would cease.
But when we disarmed They sold us and delivered us bound to our foe,
And the Gods of the Copybook Headings said: "Stick to the Devil you know."
On the first Feminian Sandstones we were promised the Fuller Life
(Which started by loving our neighbour and ended by loving his wife)
Till our women had no more children and the men lost reason and faith,
And the Gods of the Copybook Headings said: "The Wages of Sin is Death."
In the Carboniferous Epoch we were promised abundance for all,
By robbing selected Peter to pay for collective Paul;
But, though we had plenty of money, there was nothing our money could buy,
And the Gods of the Copybook Headings said: "If you don't work you die."
Then the Gods of the Market tumbled, and their smooth-tongued wizards withdrew
And the hearts of the meanest were humbled and began to believe it was true
That All is not Gold that Glitters, and Two and Two make Four
And the Gods of the Copybook Headings limped up to explain it once more.
As it will be in the future, it was at the birth of Man
There are only four things certain since Social Progress began.
That the Dog returns to his Vomit and the Sow returns to her Mire,
And the burnt Fool's bandaged finger goes wabbling back to the Fire;
And that after this is accomplished, and the brave new world begins
When all men are paid for existing and no man must pay for his sins,
As surely as Water will wet us, as surely as Fire will burn,
The Gods of the Copybook Headings with terror and slaughter return!
"The Gods of the Copybook Headings" by Rudyard Kipling
Before I was saved, I liked His Dark Materials until the last book in the series. I thought the ending was blasphemous and even in my unsaved state, it was offensive. I didn't know Pullman was an atheist. I can see my naiveté and lack of knowledge in hindsight. Especially because I am saved now.
Praise Amaterasu!
ROMANS 1:1-32 EXPLAINS THIS
Demonic forces have come in with a vengeance globally at this particular time, because we grow closer daily to the Rapture of believers. Maranatha.
Rapture? Where is this in scripture?
Makes me sick whenever I come across the rapture nonsense
@@albertayunda5521 Makes me sad whenever I come across believers who reject the comfort and encouragement of the prophetic Word of God and even more sad for those who attack other brothers/sisters. Maranatha.
@@albertayunda5521 I think it makes the Lord sick when scoffers reject the promises, encouragement, and comfort of His Word. Maranatha.
"I will bring judgement on the gods of Egypt" .... There were gods of Egypt being judged
Great show once again gentlemen. I'm wondering if you know of or know Steve Deace of the Blaze. He seems to be very insightful and accurate with the observations he makes regarding the spirit of the age perspective. Any thoughts about him and the books he has written?
I haven't read much by him, but it sounds like a great tip. Thanks!
Go and read the book for yourself 'The Return of the Gods' by Jonathan Cahn. There's just simple ABC truth in the book.
I do hope you gentlemen learn more about BTC so that you stay far away from it. That said, I liked a lot of the discussion. You’re spot on about AI. It’s slightly malevolent and does not care about us one way or another. That said, to name your enemy you must be able to find the names and say them out loud
My cousin is a big Bitcoin person these days and lives in Miami. Wonder if she’ll be there
My church falls into the category of acknowledging the Biblicity of demons but does little more. What would you suggest to nudge things in a better direction for the benefit of the flock?
"Supernatural" and "The Unseen Realm" both by Dr. Michael S. Heiser. The former is written for the layman and the latter is a more formal academic treatment with footnotes and sources. It will open up the Bible as never before.
I agree with the suggestion re. Heiser's books. Also, depending on your position in the church, you could do a Bible study on the Gospel accounts of Jesus' miracles and raise the question directly when dealing with Jesus casting out demons. In general, I think the best way to approach this on a personal level and probably with the church as well is to accept by faith that what Scripture says is true and to act on it, whether you see results or not. Pray actively against demonic forces, for example, and pray for discernment. You can also read good books on the subject and do studies on them, something like the Bondage Breaker by Neil Anderson.
another thing is if you are going to attribute war and corruption to belief, I would like to point out that all the warring nations right now are either christian,jewish or muslim .
so maybe abrahamic faith is the problem?
we are certainly seeing spiritual entities gaining power and influence; witness the inexplicable growth of gay pride and trans ideology; if understood as spiritual things, as per Becket Cook (Gay Pride & the Spiritual Realm - The Becket Cook Show Ep. 30), then whole lot seems more intelligible; not exactly reassuring, but intelligible.
Many of the ideas in the Old testament came from Indo-Europeans. Rabbinic Judaism and second temple Judaism is an outgrowth of interactions with indo-europeans. They were ruled by Indo-European Persians and Indo-European Greeks. Most ideas that set up the West for domination of the rest of the world was found in Indo-European thought (Winn, 1995). Ancient Israel was an inferior worthless culture. They benefitted from being colonized by the superior cultures around them. Judea benefitted alot from being colonized by the superior Greek and Roman cultures, i.e. Indo-European cultures. Colonization tends to benefit those being colonized (Sowell, 1998). Jews did not become successful until they were Indo-Europeanized. Logical debate to find truth is one influence, by extension you need some freedom of speech for debates to take place in the first place. Things not found in the Hebrew bible, but found in Indo-European Greco-Roman culture. The gospels have thematic elements from Greco-Roman novels. In the Satyricon there is an anointing of a body before death and cock crowing marking an omen before a death. The Satyricon even says to divide the body to be eaten. The empty tomb motif was a common motif in the Greco-Roman novel, where they assumed empty tomb meant Apotheosis. An empty tomb meant deification in Greco-Roman novels. As demonstrated by Robyn Faith Walsh in her work "The Origins of Early Christian Literature: Contextualizing the New Testament within Greco-Roman Literary Culture."
The inferior authors of the Hebrew Bible tried Indo-Europeanize their inferior worthless god, by giving him an Indo-European chariot, the Indo-European motif of a god killing a serpentine dragon, and even the Biblical Creation Myth and the Mesopotamian Creation Myths both developed from the Indo-European Creation Myth (Wikander, 2017). The Biblical texts even use Indo-European prayer formulas in areas (Bachvarova, 1997). The Talmud is filled with Greco-Roman dialogues and arguments, even "The Passover Seder is a Greco-Roman symposium banquet" (Visotzky, 2016). Besides the biblical texts adopting the Indo-European Creation Myth and Indo-European Formulaic Prayers, the logos, for example, being a god is a very Indo-European concept. It also very interesting that that idea was written in Greek, an Indo-European language. The very same idea is conveyed in the Rig Veda 10.125.7 where "Speech to become identified with the creator" (Doniger, 48). Through the sacrifice of Purusha (Sanskrit: पुरुष, puruṣa), man is given life, Rig Veda 10.90 1700-1200 BCE. Sound like the Christian interpretation of the Jesus story. Josephus suggests Yahweh and Zeus are different names for the Same god. Josephus writes in Jewish Antiquities 12.22, "We call him, and that truly, by the name of Ζηνα, [Zeus] because he breathes life into all men." An "Orphic Hymn to Zeus that says: “Zeus, breath of all things” (Herrero de Jáuregui, 2011). This idea is very Indo-European. The Sky Father breathing life into Man is found in many branches of the Indo-European family tree. In Persian myth, the first mortal couple - Mashya and Mashyanag - into whom Ahura Mazda breathes the spirit of life which becomes their souls. Odin also breaths life into man. Now you know where the inferior biblical authors got the idea from. Since all the end of European Religions come from a common Proto-Indo-European religion, they all share many things in common, even Gods. Many traditions that are found in one branch of the Indo-European religions, will find a parallel in the other branches. The sacrificial rites for Shiva are very similar to those of Jupiter. They are the same god as clearly stated in the Rig veda. Shiva has a lingam, which milk and butter is used to anoint. Jupiter also had a sacred stone which milk and olive oil was used to anoint the stone. The lingam is also adorned with a garland of marigold flowers. Jupiter's sacred stone was also adorned with flowers. Jupiter is associated with a bull and a snake. Shiva is also associated with a bull named Nandi and a Naga, which is a sacred snake (Woodard, 2010). This shows that these shared rituals in the different branches of the Indo-european religions have a common ancestor.
There is evidence of Indo-european Vedic Hindu influence of the biblical god and Sanskrit speakers in the land of Canaan before the bible was written. Vedic Sanskrit words appear cuneiform texts from Tel Leilani in Northern Syria from 1750 BCE. "Indic-speaking peoples (Indo - Aryans) did not arrive in ancient India until the earlier part of the second millennium B.C.E. (Kulke and Rothermund 2010, 12-14). During the latter half of the second millennium, evidence for Indic speaking peoples appears in the ancient Near East: Indic names and vocabulary appear in texts connected with Mittani, particularly literature from these regions on hippiatrics (e.g., the Kikkuli Texts), and Indic linguistic elements also appear in several personal names of Hurrian-influenced areas in southern Syria and Palestine." (Noonan, 2019: 27). Vedic Hinduism even influenced Sumerian religion as shown from Vedic Hindu elements in Sumerian prayers and sumerians adopted Indo-European word for wheel (Bachvarova, 1997). The Vedic Hindu gods attested in cuneiform tablets in Syria, in 1400 BCE, are Mitra, Varuṇa, Indra and the Nāsatyas (Fournet, 2010). It is interesting that Mitra and Varuṇa are invoked in treaties because Mitra is the Vedic Hindu god of covenants, oaths and the morning sun and Varuṇa protects oaths. Indra is the Vedic Hindu King of the gods, God of Lightning, Thunder, storms and Rain. Some of the myths of the biblical god are from an Indo-European Vedic Hindu source (Wikander, 2017). An Indo-Europeanized version of Judaism survived.
Mary Bachvarova Lecture: The Chariot of the Sun-God
ruclips.net/video/YpE61mrs_oA/видео.html
Walsh, R. F. (2021). The origins of early Christian literature: contextualizing the New Testament within Greco-Roman literary culture. Cambridge University Press.
Robyn Faith Walsh, The Origins of Early Christian Literature: Contextualizing the New Testament within Greco-Roman Literary Culture. Cambridge University Press.
Noonan, B. J. (2019). Non-Semitic loanwords in the Hebrew Bible: A lexicon of language contact (Vol. 14). Penn State Press.
Macedo, J. M. (2018). “Wherever You Are”: Near Eastern Influence and Indo-European Heritage in Greek and Hittite Prayer. Numen, 65 (1), 62-87.
Wikander, O. (2017). Unburning fame: horses, dragons, beings of smoke, and other Indo-European motifs in Ugarit and the Hebrew Bible. Winona Lake, Indiana.
Visotzky, B. L. (2016). Aphrodite and the Rabbis: How the Jews Adapted Roman Culture to Create Judaism as We Know It. St. Martin's Press.
Parpola, A. (2015). The roots of Hinduism: the early Aryans and the Indus civilization. Oxford University Press.
de Jáuregui, M. H., San Cristóbal, A. I. J., Martínez, E. R. L., Hernández, R. M., Álvarez, M. A. S., & Tovar, S. T. (Eds.). (2011). Tracing Orpheus: studies of Orphic fragments (Vol. 10). Walter de Gruyter.
Woodard, R. D. (2010). Indo-European sacred space: Vedic and Roman cult. University of Illinois Press.
Fournet, Arnaud, (2010). About the Mitanni-Aryan gods. The Journal of Indo-European Studies 38, 26-40.
West, Martin Litchfield (2007). Indo-European Poetry and Myth. Oxford: Oxford University Press.
Sowell, Thomas (1998). Conquests And Cultures: An International History.
Bachvarova, Mary R. (1997). "The Literary Use of Dialects: Ancient Greek, Indic and Sumerian." CLS 33: 7-22.
Watkins, C. (1995). How to kill a dragon: aspects of Indo-European poetics. Oxford University Press.
Winn, S. M. (1995). Heaven, heroes, and happiness: the Indo-European roots of Western ideology. University Press of America.
Drews, Robert (1994). The Coming of the Greeks: Indo-European Conquests in the Aegean and the Near East. Princeton, NJ: Princeton University Press.
Doniger, W. (Ed.). (1981). The Rig Veda: an anthology: one hundred and eight hymns, selected, translated and annotated (Vol. 402). Penguin.
We need to stop this de-dollarization.
My issue with this stuff would be lack of objectivity. If you say (hypothetically): "I saw an angel" - well, I didn't. It does not mean angels don't exist or that I reject the Bible's testimony about the existence of such beings, but simply that I can not objectively know whether or not you've actually witnessed a presence of an angel. Therefore it is totally unhelpful for you to claim that you have seen one. I can not know if you truly have. I would have to trust you and I've learned not to trust people who make such claims.
From this follows that when someone claims that the current world situation is caused by the increasing influence of the old gods, there is no objective method to quantify whether or not it actually is the case, which again makes such an assertion utterly unhelpful. It is just an opinion. Opinions are like these certain cavities in our bodies (which we don't talk about in civilized conversation) and everyone has one. It could be the case. It could not be. There's not a single thing I will do different in my life in light of this theory.
Please bear in mind that Jonathan Cahn has written all kinds of "we're living in the last days" stuff, which as a category is equally unhelpful. This type of newspaper eschatology lacks objectivity in a similar manner. They say that incident A is a fulfillment of prophecy B but that is just an opinion and there is no corroboration from any objective source, of which there is only one, namely the Scriptures. The Bible nowhere says, for example, that in 1948 a new state of Israel shall be founded. It can be argued that it fits this text here and it can equally be argued that it does not fit that text there, which makes it just another subjective opinion that carries no authority.
So I guess my disagreement in a nutshell would be that I don't share the concern over lack of emphasis on the supernatural. I on the contrary think we emphasize it too much and lack emphasis on objectivity. I'm a radical objectivist. I don't think demons need any attention from us.
Jesus thought demons needed attention. He cast them out and told his followers to do so. If your worldview is shaped by Scripture, you need to recognize the reality of these entities. Our notion of objectivity isn't entirely supported by Scripture either, which shows us that our rational minds are not the only organ we have to discern truth. Just a few things to think about.
@@everysquareinchministries4799 Which other organs do we have then?
Our spirits are also other "organs" by which to discern truth as the Holy Spirit intermingles with us. That's entirely unobjective, I know, but true nonetheless.
@@naomisasse9484 So when you discern "in your spirit" something to be true, how do I know you really did have such a spiritual sensation and that you didn't make it up or imagine it? I don't. I would have to trust you. I don't. Men are masters of self-deception. But if I gave you the benefit of the doubt, against what should I reflect your spiritual discernment to make sure it is correct?
you guys seem like decent guys, I think you should be more open minded and get rid of blind dogma, lots of the old gods preached virtue and good. they are not "demonic" or "Evil" they have been demonized by abrahamic religions in the past , their temples burned, their followers tortured and burned and killed.
why would divine truth need violence and coercion ?
It’s coordinated by humans. Conservatives arnt that good is all
Lol these Jews are like; it's not us stealing your money it's the Pagan Gods lol
There is only one God. Please don't give Satan's fallen angel buddies more elevation than they deserve by calling them " little g gods".
Isaiah 44:6
Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts: “I am the first and I am the last; besides me there is no god.
Deuteronomy 32:17
They sacrificed to demons that were no gods, to gods they had never known, to new gods that had come recently, whom your fathers had never dreaded.
In Hebrew, they are sometimes referred to as "elohim"--the plural of the Hebrew word for [a] god. In Greek, they are "daimones"--a word that is sometimes translated "gods" in the New Testament.
Look into Michael Heiser on RUclips.
Modern man has been around for approx 300,000 years, thats approx 298,000 years without the christian faith, I suspect those from that time frame without christianity did spirituality just fine without it, just like we'll do just fine without it when it slides into mythology. Christianity has a very dark past that has been swept under the carpet for like ever, people are waking up to the harm its done to world and choosing to walk away from it, the faith only has itself to blame. Opening your podcast with a five minute rant on money shows the priorities of the faith, I seem to remember jesus wasnt real cool with money and the accumulation of it, the hypocrisy like this drives people away.
keep thinking someone needs to get these guys some holy water... 39:40 My guy, you need the sign of the Cross and holy water, and the prayers of the Fathers. We're going to lose this battle if we thank we need to reinvent the wheel. The West may have forgotten the face of their fathers through the reformation, but the Saints live and already defeated these forces and we have direct access to them (once you let go of Luther-brain and ask them for their Intercession)
Access to dead people? My bible says something pretty severe about those who try to contact the dead.
Mark 12:26-27