If Sega's North American and Japanese branches learned to work together as a team instead of having creative differences that made them compete against each other, the Saturn could have been as successful in North America as it was in Japan, if not more. Sega could have still been in steady competition with Sony, Nintendo, and possibly Microsoft as well.
I don't know if SEGA would have been as successful in the US and in Europe as they were in Japan with the Saturn even if we got both US and JPN branches of Sega were pulling the same direction and even if we help them further by also giving Yuji Naka the boot out the door to prevent more of the in-fighting he kept causing! The main reasons we are going to still be in trouble are first that it was far harder to develop for the SEGA 🪐 than it was for the PlayStation due to the more complicated architecture of the 🪐 plus Sony giving ridiculously good deals to publishers to work with them plus most of our own in house developers kept releasing Arcade ports when the Market desire for such games was shrinking not mention the PR disasters we have already caused with gamers and retailers of releasing then promising to keep developing games for the SEGA 32X add-on and then failing to do so breaking all the goodwill we had built up with customer's over the past 4-5 years and also burning bridges with retailers by releasing the 🪐 to immediately at E3 rather than the original September 1995 release date preventing them from getting the consoles in and not getting the nearly enough time for marketing to get ready promote the system to sell them. Hell I think if I remember correctly that SEGA even made the problem so much worse by signing a exclusive deal with one of the toy stores at the time. So in summary even if we give SEGA all these advantages of a more functional company all pulling towards the same goal the fact remains due to all others issues such as poor hardware and software choices, Bad PR, Sony being a FAR, FAR LARGER COMPANY THAN US so they can sell both sell hardware at a lost and can give Publishers really good deals to make game for them and it barely hurting Sony's bottom line at all oh and our console is $100 dollars more than the PlayStation at launch even then with all that against us I still think we would even struggle to beat even the Nintendo and it's N64 to second place even with a years head start in America but that being said releasing a proper 3D Sonic that was good would had help out bottom line a fair bit! 😅
@@shadowopsairman1583That’s a massive simplification and narrative that doesn’t really hold up anymore. We’ve got plenty of evidence in the form of the SoA FY97 leak and interviews that indicate SoA made plenty of its own bad management decisions that put itself in a financial black hole towards the end of the 16-bit era.
I remember reading about Sonic X-treme in GamePro in their coverage of E3 1996. I always wondered why the game never came out. Years later, I discovered videos on RUclips discussing the topic and became fascinated by the topic. I know there’s a rom out there somewhere that I have yet to mess around with. Some part of me almost doesn’t want to check it out since the hype infected my little pea brain when I was 9 and it would be the ultimate letdown 28 years later. This is a great video! Keep up the awesome work.
The Saturn Sonic Adventure project that ended up repurposed for Sonic World was some kind of RPG. Sonic World's gameplay implies it used low-speed platforming when out of battle, and I imagine the battles themselves would've looked like the ones in Sonic Shuffle. As evidenced by Twinkle Park, early Windy Valley, overall character proportions compared to Adventure 2 (the extending quills from Sonic World are still present in Sonic's rig + several animations are reused) and the character models for the Tornado stages, the change in art style wasn't defined as soon as they moved to Dreamcast either.
I suspect this is explains some of the concept renders with Jam models overtop highly detailed environments, they were likely pre rendered environments with the Jam models running around on top. Maybe a few in game platforming segments on top like you mentioned. It was referred to as the “Sonic and Knuckles RPG” so it likely fleshed out the events of Sonic 3 or was directly related to it in some way
@@AuntieAliasing And you know what sucks we still can’t even get an actual decent Sonic RPG after the train wreck that was Chronicles, I’d also like to see another crack at Sonic Shuffle but I guess they insist on copying Fall Guys with Rumble, even though Fall Guys isn’t as popular as it used to be and they it’s only Mobile and PC which won’t do the game any favors, I mainly game on console.
Ehh it likely wouldn't even have had a traditional battle system, "RPG" is very loosely defined in Japan, so the RPG systems likely would have been similar to like Symphony of the Night- defeat enemies for EXP that makes your jump and spin attacks stronger. The slower RPG stuff WAS probably a limitation of the Saturn, but I highly doubt it would have been like Sonic Chronicles.
The push for 3D was much bigger in North America than it was in Japan. The Japanese market still had tons of 2D titles throughout the Saturn's lifetime because people didn't care as much. But I understand your point as Sonic was mostly aimed at the North American audience so going 3D would have been the choice for the era. Also the issue with multiplatform games is that you could tell exactly which hardware they were targeting. If the game was mainly made for the PS1, the Saturn version would have been compromised whereas it's the opposite if the game was mainly made for the Saturn. In terms of 3D capabilities the Saturn was better in my eyes but the difference is quads and difficult programming vs tris and easier programming on the PS1. North American developers especially struggled with the Saturn likely due to development kits not being as good. Hardware wise the Saturn was quite the beast and didn't suffer as much.
The saturn didnt really show what it could do till after the new dev kits with the upgraded software (i cant remember the name right now) which was used to make vf2 and vf remix. Texture quality improved really helped too
Being a "beast" in capabilities doesnt mean much if Saturn difficulty is extremely difficult. Few devs could take advantage of Saturn's potential. In a full blown 3D Sonic game, Saturn would give Sega/Sonic Team the most difficulty. Sonic Adventure is buggy on Dreamcast so chances are a full 3D Sonic game on Saturn would be more broken if given the same dev time
@@joshfacio9379If Sega made a Sonic game for PS1, chances are the game would actually be completed. Even if PS1 is technically not as powerful. If a significant amount of time is spent trying to get something to work instead of working on the game itself
@@guyanesegal3166 I had already mentioned it was difficult to program for. Japanese developers had an easier time because they had better dev kits to assist in the making of their games. There absolutely were games that looked better on Saturn than they did on PS1. Sonic Adventure 1 did originally start as a Saturn game but transitioned to Dreamcast to promote their new console. It had nothing to do with its difficulty to make games. Plus, Sonic Adventure 1 did have quite the rocky development cycle. The game suffered from quite the crunch time and rush to get it out the door. The Dreamcast game did have it's fair share of bugs, it is by far the least buggy version of the game. Most of the more infamous bugs come from the late DX releases of Sonic Adventure.
I've played both Sonic into Dreams and Sonic Jam (if those were what you're comparing) and also every version of Sonic R, and Sonic into Dreams' model looks FREAKING WEIRD compared to all the others, XD. Also: Hi Larry!
I was Surprised Sega didn't make Sonic Playable in Fighters Megamix on the Saturn. They could of used the Sonic the Fighters 3D Model. Instead we got Bark and Bean from Sonic the Fighters and a Stage from Sonic the Fighters, but no Sonic, Tails or Knuckles.
There's probably a reason for that. Fighters Megamix was not supposed to be a "SEGA All-Stars Fighting Game", but a game celebrating fighting games from AM2 and their characters. If you think about it, Bark and Bean are the only characters created for an AM2 game, so that's why they wanted to use them. Maybe they actually didn't even want to use Sonic Team's characters.
@@SMSCovers Takeshi Iizuka headed Fighters Megamix Development. At the time(Mid 1996), There were plans to port Sonic The Fighters to Saturn using a Special 8 MB RAM Saturn X Cartridge. STF ran on Model 2 CRX which was SPECIALLY enhanced Model 2 Arcade hardware that used TT&L and even MIPS Mapping(Which would be incorporated into the Dreamcast) and even Software Anti Aliasing. For unknown reasons, The Port as well as the SATURN X Cartridge were all scrapped and abandoned in Early 1997.
I wonder how well the 32X CD tower of power could have managed Sonic Mania... not that it would have sold on that system even with a 1:1 attach rate. I think while Doom was bad on Saturn, that was an issue with the porting process and John Carmack messing stuff up rather than technical shortfalls. Hexen is a very similar title with the tech it uses and holds up better which makes something like Robo Blast 2 seem more feasible. Also, Doom runs on the frickin' SNES in some way... I think a Sonic game on the Saturn would best work if it was designed like Spyro the Dragon. Fairly big levels with space to run around but exploration focused to work around technical limitations of frame rate and draw distance. Put Tails on the flying levels.
That's an interesting question. After all, it ran Knuckles' Chaotix just fine. I think Sonic Team eventually took the Spyro the Dragon approach with Frontiers, although Sonic's World in Jam also feels a bit Spyro, now I think about it...
@@BeaugosseRiche Correct. It was also Legal in Japan during the 90s. Its why CSK Holdings was able to SWINDLE SEGA and CHEAT Investors. Okawa died March 21,2001 not only leaving SEGA a $3 billion deficit, it was discovered in 2002 that he had been STEALING ROI and scamming shareholders. Its why CSK got shut down and why Sammy Corporation brought SEGA.
I still don't understand why Yuji Naka was so pissed about Sonic running on the NiGHTS Into Dreams engine. Like, imagine if Shigeru Miyamoto quit Nintendo because Ocarina of Time used Mario 64's engine? "But it was _his_ idea to do so!" Yes, it was, and it's a very normal thing to do. Also, just like Shiggy created Mario and Zelda, Yuji created Sonic and Nights... shouldn't be a problem.
I don't think it was the engine the problem, or the fact someone else was working on his creation, I think he just disliked the people of Sega of America, and the thought of them tinkering with his engine must've fused some bulbs in his head. you don't want people you dislike playing with your most precious creation, at least I wouldn't have it.
@@royareyzabal823 Yeah, but... he's taking "not being a team player" to ridiculous new heights. If I worked at the office with him, I'd write "WELCOME TO THE NEXT LEVEL of pettiness" across his desk or cubicle or wherever he worked.
Miyamoto worked on both Mario 64 and Ocarina and in fact ocarina was originally laid out like Mario 64, with that same castle hub to individual levels structure. Naka, on the other hand, had zero involvement in X-Treme because it was being made by a completely different team on the opposite side of the Pacific Ocean. I’m not excusing his behavior, I think he was being extremely arrogant even if X-Treme was clearly fundamentally a poor 3D introduction for Sonic, but that definitely seemed to be his reasoning there
The Saturn is, by far, the most frustrating "what-if" story in gaming for me. What if Bernie Stolar didn't cockblock the Saturn's access to JRPG and strategy titles? What if Sega didn't cannibalize themselves with the 32X and instead diverted all available resources to the Saturn? What if they didn't dump a second processor into the damn thing last minute, and instead had carefully planned the entire thing around two processors right from the beginning? What if it got a dedicated, main-line Sonic title, perhaps even a 3D precursor to Sonic Adventure? What if Shenmue had actually been completed for it, and had served as the catalyst for open-world games a full console generation earlier? The mind boggles. I firmly believe that, had it been better thought out and properly marketed, the Saturn would have utterly thrashed the N64, and at least gone toe-to-toe with the PS1. It might have even better set up the Dreamcast for far more success, and beyond even that, only God knows.
And, biggest of all, what if they didn’t royally screw up its North American launch? It did good in Japan, but that E3 fiasco ruined everything before it ever got started over here. It was the Xbox One of its time basically
I think Yuji was so xeno that he really didn't like that the series was more popular outside of Japan. So much so that he just left the series to die around that time.
The issues with transparencies wasn't that the saturn couldn't do them, it's that they weren't possible in the same way like on the psx without compromise - iirc only one of the vdps had support for transparencies, (the one that did backgrounds) and the bit with sonic r was clever programming on the other vdp
Both could do transparencies just fine, but you could run into problems when what's behind your transparent object isn't drawn by the same VDP that drew that object. VDP1 renders quadrilateral polygons off a display list provided by the CPUs and SCU, and can perform any colour maths that arise from these instructions to create lavish scenes full of transparent shapes overlapping each other just fine. VDP1 is not, however, ever able to touch any of the layers drawn by VDP2. It cannot factor the contents of VDP2's memory into any of its operations. VDP2 meanwhile draws as many as four layers of tile maps (more similar to previous generations of game consoles in this way). It can also do transparencies just fine, though it doesn't draw over a single tile in a single layer twice to do it as would be most comparable to VDP1's operation. VDP2 must employ at least two layers to blend colours (this isn't a problem, just something to note), where the layer on top has all or part of itself rendered non-opaque to allow blending with what is beneath it. Before the final scene is drawn to the screen, VDP2 reads the contents of the part of VDP1's framebuffer that it just drew its current frame to, and composites that as a layer among its own, sorts its layers as instructed by the game program, and applies whatever post-processing effects are asked for at that time, or scanline-based effects as it sends its output to the video encoder and out the wires to the screen. However it does not read (nor could it meaningfully interpret) the display lists that VDP1 used to draw its graphics. It cannot go back into VDP1's rendered image and make changes...at least not in hardware. One could in theory use it to plot pixels over that image in software but god why, just use another layer you have four.
@@fisherdotoggI was going to recommend Low Score Boy’s video, but this is a pretty comprehensive explanation. It’s so weird. Some games have overlapping transparent objects, but most don’t. And there are almost always caveats.
@@opaljk4835 As far as I recall, when VDP2 reads the framebuffer output of VDP1 for final compositing, there is no alpha data transferred- the VDP1's render is considered to be a fully opaque bitmap, and while VDP2 can totally composite that layer as transparent, it can only apply transparency to the entire layer because it has no context for what was supposed to be see-through and what was not.
@@fisherdotogg Isn't that what Sonic R did, though? Portions of the VDP1 render (i.e., the rainbow track) were turned transparent and composited with the VDP2 background, while other portions (the characters, etc.) were left opaque.
I remember in 1996 reading in an Ultra Game Players magazine that Sonic X-treme was "delayed indefinitely." As the only kid in my class with a Sega Saturn, I was pretty disappointed. The whole fiasco about this game in particular (and the "what-ifs" about the Saturn in gereral) is still fascinating to me 28 years later!
Well, I know X-Treme wasn't the focus of this video, but I just wanted to clarify that the level design shown in the Voxel recreation was Incomplete Level design made for a 1997 also canceled PC version of the game, the Level Design for X-Treme was going to be completely different and made by Hirokazu Yasuhara (Level Designer on Sonic 1/2/3K) himself, there are even concepts and files of it here and there
It was an afterthought to add a second chip for 3D capabilities. Saturn was originally designed to battle the Jaguar. The prototype focused on 2D sprite scaling.
@@DontKnowDontCare6.9There is also an anecdote floating around about the Jaguar, where Sega made the devs of the console to shove in a second CPU in the thing to compete with the Jaguar.
@@DontKnowDontCare6.9 Looking at what the VDP1 and VDP2 chip could do in the saturn I doubt it. One of them did background layers, and the one that does 2D sprites is the same that does 3D polygons. If they removed the 3D chip they'd also remove the 2D chip and be stuck with only scaling and rotating backround images. It doesn't make sense to me.
@@DontKnowDontCare6.9Saturn is conceptually a mix of the System32 and the Model1. Saturn was conceived as a 3D console, but less powerful, originally it would have been similar to the 3DO in power. Now Hideki Sato himself specified in interviews that the decision to be a 2D/3D machine was to take advantage of their old equipment and make a smooth transition to 3D, since outside of AM2 and AM3 there were no internal work teams with expertise or experience working in 3D environments. Now the VDP1 together with the second SH2 could do by brute force software much of what the VDP2 ended up doing by hardware. Regarding the double processor, that was the case from the beginning, one SH2 controlled everything and the second working as slaves would help the first SH2 and the VDP(1) for certain tasks. However, Hitashi had problems delivering information to Sega about the operation of the SH2, which delayed the task of making tools for the DevKit a lot.
this is a great video on the state of the saturn's game and great fangames with the same aesthetic! very comprehensive. props for mentioning bug, which sonic even appears in
I was expecting (and looking forward to) a traditional 2d sonic (sonic 4?) on the saturn. More colour, more sprites, faster processing and the inclusion of 3d effects, CD music etc would have made it the game of the year. And then, the special stages would have been something seen in this vid. Sega missed a trick here with something that wasn't broken (sonic 1-3). Any 3D only game could have come later. I think many like me just wanted classic Sonic with 100s of colours onscreen, amazing music and additions to the games framework
I agree i would have loved a sonic 4 on saturn that took advantage of the systems 2D capabilities. But we tend to forgot starting in around 1996 everyone was on the 3D hype train. A lot of really great 2D games got dismissed for being 2D and suffered from poor sales. So while I agree it would have been awesome, when put up against Mario 64 and crash bandicoot i dont think it would have fared well in sales or reviews.
@pranksforall7397 I agree with what you say especially when comparing it against Mario 64 etc. But the fan base for sonic would have resulted in Sonic 4/Saturn selling out very quickly worldwide. I suppose it would received the same anticipated excitement that Sonic CD received.
This comment and those who agree with it (like I do) are exactly why Mania's initial reveal (and Mania Plus's reveal) were met with EXPLOSIVE CHEERING. Mania feels like Sonic Saturn.
Man I remember thinking about an alternative timeline of what if a proper Sonic Saturn game was made, as otherwise that was the start of the downfall, at least for the Sega consoles.
I think the 32X, the surprise launch stunt, the difficulty of developing 3D games for the Saturn, and the infighting between the Japanese and American branches of Sega had more to do with what happened than the lack of a Sonic game.
@@ikagura people often criticize that game for being short and a little unpolished. In my experience it’s a fantastic game…but radiant Silvergun also is very impressive
@@opaljk4835 I love RS. It's more 2D in gameplay but still impressive visually for the hardware. Nights into Dreams is also genuinely graphically good for '96.
Greetings, the truth is that in those years I would have loved to see a Sonic in 3D. Now, the problem of thinking about it 30 years after the appearance of Saturn is that we are contaminated with modern Sonic, but some ideas come to mind thinking of games like Panzer Dragoon, Cyber Speedway, Daytona USA, the remains of Sonic Xtreme, Step Slow Sliders, Winter Heat, Scorcher, Sonic 3D Blast "Bonus Stage" or Sonic R. Although I mention some games from 1997, it is to exemplify that it would take a similar approach to Sonic Unleashed, in its Day version, Sonic moving through an obstacle course just like we saw in Crash Bandicoot, but varying to 2.5D sections or levels like modern Sonic, thus having a fast and dynamic gameplay. It would not be impossible on the system and the Poping could be hidden between Fog and background images that help to hide it.
@@hoobaguy The Internal Documentation as well as the Hitachi SH-2 PDF documentation show SATURN as a 64-bit Console using similar Makeup as Nintendo 64's NECVR4300. With More ICs and a slightly weaker 64-bit Bus. SATURN was heavily overengineered as well. With Over 8 different Processors. Saturn used Brute Force. It was TRULY well ahead of PSX.
A Saturn Sonic game could have worked like this: - Pandemonium-like 2.5D levels using 3D polygons for the foreground and 2D VDP2 backgrounds, mantaining the tried and true 2D gameplay but with some cool camera angles and none of the fidgety gameplay or issues of Sonic Adventure's gameplay - hub map like Mario 64 using an environment like Sonic World - special stages like the Saturn version of Sonic 3D
I'm glad at least a few people out there agree with me that Sonic X-Treme would have been a massive failure even if it were completed and released, but it had a doomed history from the start. I think the ideas planned for it were very cool, but I develop games as a hobby and I can tell you that mismanaging a project is a surefire way to kill it.
The first build of the game was released online in late 1998- before Sonic Adventure was released. It literally is the missing link and the game in between those 2.
Learning about the potentiality of a Sonic game in the Saturn is always so interesting to me because of how much people talk about X-treme. I hope with more fan games and the such we get a better idea of that Saturn game and it would be fun time for a SAGE expo too!
You’re right that a 2d sonic game wouldn’t have gone down well at the time (but probs would have aged well). The hype around moving into the 32-bit generation was all about 3d.
For the record, Naka has personally said that the reason he said no to using the NiGHTs engine was that NiGHTs was programmed in Assembly, and X-treme was being programmed in C, so there was no chance it would be easily applied. The work shown off of X-treme, especially the fish eye stuff, was for sure not using the NiGHTs engine, and the claims that STI even got tools for practicing with the NiGHTs engine are also disputed. With that said, Naka was probably still an ass, and it's fair to give some doubt to his word too, if you give doubt to the word of STI employees. I just figured it was worth mentioning.
I think even if they were granted access to the NiGHTS engine, it wouldn't have been enough. Not only because they would effectively start from scratch, but I also think the STI team were mentally and physically spent by then. Maybe Ofer Alons PC port attempt had a chance. But the level design for that looked rather dull despite some flashy 3d elements
Great video! Wish they released a Sonic game for the Saturn. As a kid I was disappointed when the Saturn didn’t release an official Sonic title. I was happy about Sonic JAM. Even a 2D title would’ve been great
I remember a Gamesack episode mentioning that the Saturn was more powerful than the PS1 on paper but that it tended to come across as worse due to being so tough to program for (I can't remember the exact episode name but it specifically compared the two consoles head-to-head). As neat as a game like Sonic Adventure would have been on the Saturn, I agree that one which was like Robo Blast 2 with 3D Blast's special stages seems more plausible with the tech. I'll admit Sonic Xtreme looks like it would have been too slow to really work as a Sonic game.
Its Simple. Xtreme was NEVER meant for Saturn. It didn't belong on there. It was designed and developed from the ground up on 32X. Robo Blast 2 uses Doom Legacy, a Mid 90s Mapping Engine that utilized Texture Mapping and Bit Map Layering which are Features that are PERFECT 1000% for SATURN hardware.
@@segaunited3855 Looking at how much more advanced Xtreme seemed to be than Sonic Mars, I'd be surprised if the 32X could have handled it to be honest (unless you're referring to Mars and the fact that Xtreme evolved from that).
There was at the very least a potential 3D stopgap game feasible if Sega could have coordinated better. Imagine this: Sonic Jam's Sonic World was a proper hubworld that featured actual stages you could enter. Those stages were the 3D special stages of Sonic 3D Blast- endless runner/platformer stages, with maybe a bit more complexity to some later designs. Not totally free to control as you can't slow down or anything, and the stages are extremely linear, so it'd be clear this isn't trying to be a sequel to Sonic 3 and Knuckles or a predecessor to Adventure, but I can imagine this would be a good way to get somewhat lengthy levels out of a Saturn game by keeping them straightforward and always moving. As another "side game," you have Sonic R. All 5 maps, all the characters. However, rather than having characters unlocked in the racing challenges, you can use the 3D Blast special stages to collect Chaos Emeralds instead, feeding into each other. And the character models in Sonic R are, thus, repurposed into the special stages in some way, so for example, you can actively battle-race Metal Sonic, or smash up Metal Knuckles, Tails Doll, and Egg Robo. Beating the stages and races unlocked various rewards (like perhaps the artwork, commercials and promos, and whatnot you saw in the original Sonic World, if there's still enough space on the disc for it all), and beating all stages, getting all Chaos Emeralds, and getting 1st place in all races gives you the ability to use Super Sonic in the hub world, in the runner stages, and in the races. If this is released late enough (like Q2 1998), this could also theoretically lead to a final unlockable at the very end, a mysterious promo featuring a green-eyed Sonic and his new adventure on Sega's upcoming console. But if it's a 1997 game, consider it the Sonic 3D Blast we should have gotten. There you have it: all three parts in full, but gloriously low-poly 3D. It's not a "full game" per se, as I can't imagine there'd be much of a story. More a collection of stages cobbled together, and the sum of its parts adds up to something that's not going to be on par with Mario 64 or Crash Bandicoot, but if this released in late 1997 or early 1998, it would have been at the very least a fun little stopgap towards Sonic Adventure, and undoubtedly Sonic fans would have retroactively come to appreciate it as the series' first major step into 3D (though I can also imagine the fandom wars over whether this "TRUE Sonic 3D Blast" cuckslapped Adventure 1 deserving that title more, since I can absolutely see some complaining about Sonic's first major foray into 3D being a spinoff loose collection of running and racing stages, which would seem embarrassing against Mario and Crash, and they'd wonder about what if Sonic Adventure instead was the first "real" 3D game). Personally I'd have loved to see this be the first 3D Sonic game if only because that jazzadelic Y2K-meets-Memphis style Genesis/Saturn-era of Sonic is so fascinating to me and seeing it in 3D before Adventure went into its own direction would have been fascinating. Only problem being that there's no way Yuji Naka would have worked with Traveler's Tales in good enough faith to lend them Sonic World as a sort of central hub, and they were already pressed for time as it was.
8:26 The twisters of the 3D Blast Saturn Special Stages also made a comeback in Taxman/Stealth's 2013 RSDK version of Sonic 2 within the secret 8th Special Stage they added through the Level Select!
Fun Fact: 2 Sonic games were actually sabotaged by Yuji Naka. Sonic X-Treme and Sonic Extreme. Whats Sonic Extreme? A prototype (made by outsider game devs) of Sonic Riders introduced to Naka, who never returned their call. Sonic Team then made their own snowboarding game months later.
To be fair most of your transparency examples aren't 3D models. But I suppose the search light from the helicopter in Virtua Fighter counts. (around the 16 min mark)
Well, I must say I've often wondered why there was this bizarre gap between Sonic 3 and Knuckles and Sonic Adventure. This video does a hell of a good job explaining why. There was supposed to be an awesome 3D title inbetwen them that was scrapped and split into 5 or 6 different games on the Sega Saturn.
The Plan B for Saturn Sonic was called "Project Sonic" and Jam, Blast Saturn and R seem to be part of all that. Pandemonium's deep dig on the leaked Sega America 1997 annual report indicates a growing awareness/ frustration that Saturn wasn't really getting anywhere. By late 1997 Sega Japan and Sega America were already working on their proposed successor to Saturn and knew the systems days were numbered after that holiday. Sonic Adventure was announced in the fall of 1998 and enough dev was done to have Windy Valley, Speed Highway and Red Mountain levels ready for the media reveal that year. So they must have switched to early "Katana" dev kits sometime in 1997. I could believe early concepts were for Saturn, but quickly moved to Katana when possible. Very early screenshots of Sonic Adventure feature the Sonic R models - specifically the early Sky Chase stage with the original Egg Carrer transforming into a dragon. To answer the question. I think the only way we would have gotten an acceptable 3D Sonic is if Sega had engaged Travellers Tales immediately after Sonic 3D released on Genesis. Or told Sonic Team to make new Sonic Games - but then NiGHTS and Burning Rangers wouldn't exist. Otherwise I think the only realistic option for a "proper" Sonic on Saturn would have been a 2D release. Anything else wouldn't come out on time before Saturn was internally considered "done"
Honestly, with the reception of the designs in latter 2024 from the obvious Ssturn inspiration styles for: Shadow, Sonic, Knuckles, Tails, Eggman/Ivo in the movie 3 song "Run It" they should just make a Sonic game in the style withiout the limitations that once existed. Honestly think it'd be a big hit.
If only that had released a few weeks earlier, would have really helped my argument. XD Oh well, glad it's out now and very impressed with the results.
“Not the cheapest or easiest thing to get a hold of” I have a tip for those of you looking! You can still get a Japanese Saturn for under $100 (I ordered mine on eBay for $75 including shipping!) and grab yourself an inexpensive Saroo or ODE. I got a Fenrir for mine, but that was before Saroo was an option. Why Saroo/ ODE? Well, Saturn games are quite expensive, hard to find in decent non scratched condition, but most importantly.. English fan translations and dubs!
Would love to have a time machine to back in time and either have certain things release or being able to give some kind of insight for a release to happen
Sonic Galactic is for me what a 32bit 2D Sonic could have looked like. It's 3D bonus stages are not that cool, though. The pressure of jumping to 3D might have been Saturn's Sonic demise. The Saturn was a 2D powerhouse. A 2D game that pushed Saturn's capabilities to its limits would have been amazing. A 2D Sonic Galactic style game with Sonic R style extended bonus stages would be the perfect combination for me. PS: Christmas Nights has a special place in my heart. Gave me A LOT of playing hours for a "demo/bonus disc with all its hidden secrets. Remember that changing the clock/date could reveal more secrets? April 1st, July 20th, August, October , and October 31st for Halloween!!
Saturn was a BEAST for 3D and 2D rendering. The real problem is that it was the PS3 of its generation. We can see in games like Burning Rangers that they had a Real rought time trying to optimize and get it at a somewhat decent framerate. Because of it being a rather complex game visually, the loading of textures struggled a lot. this is more of an issue of ease of development than the hardware itself. 🦈
I loved my sonic games on the saturn, I got sonic jam, sonic 3d blast, I didn't get sonic r for saturn but I had it for pc long ago. I learned to repair my saturn after its disc drive died playing sonic 3d blast. But sonic world could have been expanded on in sonic jam and a game made using this base code and engine. The doom port had a documentry written on it, and its short falls comes from the fact that the person that handled the port handled the port to many other systems and time constraints of it were rushed out. The port of hexen to saturn which uses the doom engine shows this to be the case as hexen saturn is very different than doom saturn. Hexen saturn is very odd it has cut scenes which the original didn't have.
Considering Sonic being grounded wasn't the best idea they could've made him Super Sonic in the Nights game. Giving him the ability to fly & made new stages dedicated for him but similar to Nights gameplay wise
The Yuji Naka NiGHTS code story has never been corroborated, as far as I know. Has anybody backed it up, beyond hearsay and conjecture? Anyway, Sonic The Fighters absolutely should have gotten a Saturn port.
The Saturn needed both a 2D and a proper 3D Sonic game. Knights Into Dreams also needed a sequel and most Arcade conversions for the console needed way more content than what was given. Also Sega should've never stopped making the Sega Genesis, their best selling and still popular console.
YOOOO!!! I wanna let you know about an upcoming sega Saturn fan game that I’m directing! It’s called Sonic Ringworlds, it will be inspired by sonic adventure, featuring the og cast. As well as pc port but we’re aiming to release it on real saturn hardware
I wonder what Knuckles Chaotix Special Stages would look like on the Saturn. Maybe it could have potential if combined with the other concepts you present in this video.
They couldn't handle them well was the argument, not that that they couldn't do them. The problem was it was pretty hard to make it properly run well, and when you are developing a project, you don't want to aim for "It might be okay".
A Sonic game with a mainly 2.5D game, seemless 3D cut scene level transitions, with 3D bonus levels like Sonic R, and 3D boss arenas... Should have been doable
Looks like someone hadn't payd enough attention while collecting chaoes emeralds through Saturn's Sonic 3D: the dash in the middle of some courses is a boost and they are needed to get into some ring gates sooner to get more rings. Sure... you don't need always to have more rings than needed for pass into another section and get the emerald in the end (which can be easy for some - never was for me, specially as teenager back into 1998), BUT it can max out the results of the score when finishing the bonus levels - and let's not forget that play videogames was all about high scores and competition back till some point in the 2000s. And about Sonic R: i could took some ideas wrong due to a too quick comment about it in the video, but the game was really made to put the player to feel and learn how to control the characters, that has different stats each (some accel faster, some reach higher speeds, some more easier, etc) AND despite turning with the directional inputs (doesn't matter if dpad or an analogue stick), the bumpers can make the character took sharper turns.
The Satern could have been a great chance for Sega to get way ahead of the competition. They could have released a game like Robo Blast, and like Mania, in the same year. If they did that, they would cement themselves as a company that will make the jump to 3D, but won't discard their legacy in the process. Then they could release the Adventure games on Dreamcast alongside a new pair of 2d games. Maybe something like the Advance series. If Sega did this, they would have a reputation for retro style games development over a decade before the retro boom, and would be remembered for it when the time came.
Had I been in charge of Sega when the 32 bit era was coming, I’d have made the Saturn a 3D powerhouse, but still with a good amount of 2D functionality, easier to develop for and backwards compatible with Mega Drive and Mega CD games! I’d also ensure a strong 1st party lineup, including a version of Virtua Fighter 2 that includes all of VF1’s content (looking back, it’s still a letdown that VF1 on the Saturn isn’t as big a package as Super Street Fighter 2 on the Mega Drive!) and I’d definitely have a new Sonic game ready for the US and PAL launches! Sonic 4 would have some 2D stages with 3D effects (like Clockwork Knight) and some 4-way stages (like Bug!) while Sonic 5, which I’d aim to have out halfway through 1997, would be a full 3D experience that can rival Mario 64!
It didn't even need to be Sonic Mars, Xtreme, or Adventure. A souped-up port of Sonic 3&K with CD quality music and real-time 3D special stages for a launch title would have moved twice as many units as the Saturn sold in the US over its entire lifespan.
@@fazelfarrokhi1998 Still a bitch move, though. Would it have killed him to let someone else in the company make a game with it? If he just asked for extra royalties...but no he decided to be a petulant turd and sabotage an innocent developer already cruelly overworked.
@@fazelfarrokhi1998Being a coder doesn't make someone an owner of something. I am a programmer myself and I own nothing I made, it's a price for my salary.
Sonic Mania and anything like it was never gonna end up on the Saturn (or even Dreamcast) or really anything at all until maybe 2010 or so. During the Saturn era when games started the jump to 3D most people had little to no interest in 2D anymore cause it was yesterday’s news and 3D is the new thing and blah blah blah. Then in about the early 2000’s with the DC/PS2/GCN/XB era people still weren’t making many 2D games, especially not for most mainline franchises like Sonic, Mario, etc. and definitely not after seeing how much 3D changed series like Metal Gear and Final Fantasy financial. Megaman X4 and Megaman 8 along with Street Fighter Alpha and other high profile 2D games were not received the best for simply not being 3D games. 2000’s most 2D were either from smaller studios or part of a compilation rerelease of 90’s 2D games. Wasn’t till about 2009ish when new releases of 2D games started getting popular again, so I highly doubt you’d ever see something like Sonic mania until mid 2000’s at the earliest and that’s still very far fetched.
Street Fighter Alpha 3 sold 6 million. The highest selling 3D Sonic game from 2000-2024 only sold 3 million. On Sega Saturn, Street Fighter outsold all Sonic games combined. On Sega Saturn. Sonic R, 3D Blast, Sonic Jam combined could not outsell a single a single Street Fighter Alpha game
@@chimericalical In that case thank god for handhelds like the Game Gear, Neo Geo Pocket, Gameboy, GBA and DS where smaller low budget 2D games still had a place to flourish.
The 32X is running a competent in-progress port of Sonic Robo Blast 2... if you blended that pure software SH-2 code with some accelerated 3D (for the water effects especially) and more RAM (maybe even the RAM cart), you'd get improved framerate, draw distance, and better textures. Side note: the port of SRB2 and the new Doom Resurrection (and Fusion) show what 3D on the 32X should have been.
So. I think we ended up on one of the better timelines all things considered. IF Sonic Adventure managed to be a Saturn game with shorter Cutscenes and grainer dialogue/music (maybe it could of been a multidisciplinary game with fewer characters) then we wouldn't of gotten the Sonic Adventure 2 many of us care so much about. IF Sonic Roboblast was essentially made for Saturn and Sonic Adventure 1 and 2 still came-to-be then you'd have a Hard Divide between the Sonic 1/2/3/& Knuckles players, the Roboblast players who'd insist their game was superior due to hybridisation of the 2/3D aspects and Faster (despite optimization issues) and the Sonic Adventure 1+2 (who often have divided opinions anyways despite both games having great Chemistry/sharing DNA with eachother) would take the narrative stance over the 2D and 2.5D titles (and Sonic would lose further appreciation). The slightly better timeline than would not disturb The Balance too much is if the Saturn could actually Load Mega Drive/Genesis games and 32X games (at no extra cost) with a few ports of cancelled Sega CD games (in this timeline) such as a fully realized version of Sonic CD made to run smoothly on the Saturn with higher quality Cutscenes (for each level) with the aid of the Video CD unit.
Now hold on. We dont know the terms of the tech and software created. Back in the 90s, devs had a LOT more control and ownership of the platforms they spents their lifes work creating. They could of been using the nights engine WITHOUT consent, royalties or even credit.
I think not many people talked about this era in SEGA's history simply because of the mere fact that the Saturn wasn't a good sellable console. It didn't sell well and I don't think many people brought it and therefore not many people from that time ownd one. With not many folks purchasing a Saturn and the console having a severely short life span in the mainstream market, a lot of us just like to look at this era when as the final years of SEGA products. When looking back at this decade, the console wars have just proven that SEGA didn't have it in them to fully compete against the likes of Nintendo or the then new PlayStation. The 90s really was a confusing and hectic time for video games since the 16bit era only lasted for about a six years or so until everything went full 3D by the later half of the decade. So in some or most cases, all video game companies back then were really being rushed to push out new and innovative things while SEGA didn't seem to have that kind of momentum. That, and SEGA was just a completely different business compared to Nintendo. Which is why SEGA always struggled and had problems with game development for the foreseeable future. Nintendo I think was more organized and got a grip when it came to making new consoles which is why I think they didn't struggled as much during the 2000s as much as SEGA and Sonic Team did. SEGA's business structure also changed after declaring they would be becoming a third party developer and was riddled with a lot of mismanagement hence how we got the adventure era as I believe all those games during this time had troubled productions especially leading up to Sonic '06. When it comes to SEGA products, people may only fondly remember the 16bit consoles like the Mega drive/Genesis because it really was the only successful product that SEGA eve had back then. I'm afraid that when people look back at history, for the people who never owned or had a personal experience witu the SEGA Saturn, a lot of people will just breeze past Saturn and Dreamcast as the general public will only remember that it was a failed product. Unfortunately it's very hard to find old retro hardware since offical demakes aren't really a thing. If you're not a game reviewer, most people just don't want to put in the extra effort to actually find or hunt down these products of a bygone era because we live in a completely different time now where we can just download or pirate retro games with newer hardware. People are lazy and that's just a fact of our nature as human beings. We shouldn't feel the need to keep on hunting and gathering for old useless media because everything should already be available to us at our finger tips. Instead of daydreaming about an unrealistic perfect alternate reality, we should all just be grateful for what we have right now and just hope that the current state of Sonic games can just try to move forward by learning from the past to make better decisions in the future. After playing Frontiers, I can roughly conclude that in that game, it's Sonic Team seldomly returning back to the hubworlds and 3D platform style long lost since the adventure era being brought back in a new way. We should be more nostalgic for that than just getting more classic Sonic titles. I think it's about time the 2000s era Sonic should have it's well deserved renaissance in the sunlight again.
there are many interesting ponts you raise in this video. I think a realistic example of what a 3d Sonic woul've been like on Saturn would be NinPen Maru. It runs pretty smoothly, handles reasonably well and the movement of the ninja penguin feels fairly parkour focused. The main aim of the game is to navigate the platforms to get to the end of the level. I did read that people thought the engine was based on the one used in Sonic Jam, but I don't think it is. Ninpen maru is well worth a look and I'd be interested to hear what others say. As for Sonic Extreme, I suspect that Naka knew the limits of the hardware and the engine better than STI. Even if Xtreme did come out, it probably woul've been too odd to play. People would've complained about the view point and how it doesn't match what Sonic is about (or something).
It’s a shame what happened with Sega America and Sega Japan it’s always due to some individuals or jealousy instead of working as a team and I remember as a kid here in Australia back then i always wonder why we never got proper Sonic game on Saturn only to found out later as a adult what happened any way great video 👍 mate
It was frustrating to see that an actual 3D Sonic has never been released on Saturn, especially after releasing 3D platforms like Bug! (where Sonic does also appear) and Bug! Too. But didn't know at all about the deveolpment of this.
The reason Naka shook his head and just said "good luck" was probably because the game looks, runs, and plays like hot ass. There are multiple prototypes out there for players to try out, and it's just a really bad experience.
I was never those child’s waiting for a sonic game on Saturn. The sonic ride video clip in sonic jam was exciting . I imagined sonic to play like klonoa 2.5d I ended switching from Saturn to ps1
I would have died if I got a Saturn Sonic Adventure. Saturn sonic from Sonic Jam is the cutest sonic ever! edit - you need to tell us what exact mods you layered to get your recordings, it looks so mint!
![Felix "Unfair" | [Stray Kids : SKZ-PLAYER]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/Oswujxm2Ag0/mqdefault.jpg)
If Sega's North American and Japanese branches learned to work together as a team instead of having creative differences that made them compete against each other, the Saturn could have been as successful in North America as it was in Japan, if not more. Sega could have still been in steady competition with Sony, Nintendo, and possibly Microsoft as well.
It was JPs fault
Yuji Naka seems like a jerk.
I don't know if SEGA would have been as successful in the US and in Europe as they were in Japan with the Saturn even if we got both US and JPN branches of Sega were pulling the same direction and even if we help them further by also giving Yuji Naka the boot out the door to prevent more of the in-fighting he kept causing!
The main reasons we are going to still be in trouble are first that it was far harder to develop for the SEGA 🪐 than it was for the PlayStation due to the more complicated architecture of the 🪐 plus Sony giving ridiculously good deals to publishers to work with them plus most of our own in house developers kept releasing Arcade ports when the Market desire for such games was shrinking not mention the PR disasters we have already caused with gamers and retailers of releasing then promising to keep developing games for the SEGA 32X add-on and then failing to do so breaking all the goodwill we had built up with customer's over the past 4-5 years and also burning bridges with retailers by releasing the 🪐 to immediately at E3 rather than the original September 1995 release date preventing them from getting the consoles in and not getting the nearly enough time for marketing to get ready promote the system to sell them. Hell I think if I remember correctly that SEGA even made the problem so much worse by signing a exclusive deal with one of the toy stores at the time.
So in summary even if we give SEGA all these advantages of a more functional company all pulling towards the same goal the fact remains due to all others issues such as poor hardware and software choices, Bad PR, Sony being a FAR, FAR LARGER COMPANY THAN US so they can sell both sell hardware at a lost and can give Publishers really good deals to make game for them and it barely hurting Sony's bottom line at all oh and our console is $100 dollars more than the PlayStation at launch even then with all that against us I still think we would even struggle to beat even the Nintendo and it's N64 to second place even with a years head start in America but that being said releasing a proper 3D Sonic that was good would had help out bottom line a fair bit! 😅
@@shadowopsairman1583That’s a massive simplification and narrative that doesn’t really hold up anymore. We’ve got plenty of evidence in the form of the SoA FY97 leak and interviews that indicate SoA made plenty of its own bad management decisions that put itself in a financial black hole towards the end of the 16-bit era.
You perfectly summed it all up, it’s a sad shame, imagine how different things would be for Sega as a whole.
19:36 This just got a 32x port by fans and it keeps the scale and draw distance of the original mostly intact.
This makes me want to see how well it would scale to the Saturn, should be possible!
I remember reading about Sonic X-treme in GamePro in their coverage of E3 1996. I always wondered why the game never came out. Years later, I discovered videos on RUclips discussing the topic and became fascinated by the topic. I know there’s a rom out there somewhere that I have yet to mess around with. Some part of me almost doesn’t want to check it out since the hype infected my little pea brain when I was 9 and it would be the ultimate letdown 28 years later.
This is a great video! Keep up the awesome work.
The Saturn Sonic Adventure project that ended up repurposed for Sonic World was some kind of RPG. Sonic World's gameplay implies it used low-speed platforming when out of battle, and I imagine the battles themselves would've looked like the ones in Sonic Shuffle.
As evidenced by Twinkle Park, early Windy Valley, overall character proportions compared to Adventure 2 (the extending quills from Sonic World are still present in Sonic's rig + several animations are reused) and the character models for the Tornado stages, the change in art style wasn't defined as soon as they moved to Dreamcast either.
I suspect this is explains some of the concept renders with Jam models overtop highly detailed environments, they were likely pre rendered environments with the Jam models running around on top. Maybe a few in game platforming segments on top like you mentioned. It was referred to as the “Sonic and Knuckles RPG” so it likely fleshed out the events of Sonic 3 or was directly related to it in some way
@@AuntieAliasing And you know what sucks we still can’t even get an actual decent Sonic RPG after the train wreck that was Chronicles, I’d also like to see another crack at Sonic Shuffle but I guess they insist on copying Fall Guys with Rumble, even though Fall Guys isn’t as popular as it used to be and they it’s only Mobile and PC which won’t do the game any favors, I mainly game on console.
Ehh it likely wouldn't even have had a traditional battle system, "RPG" is very loosely defined in Japan, so the RPG systems likely would have been similar to like Symphony of the Night- defeat enemies for EXP that makes your jump and spin attacks stronger. The slower RPG stuff WAS probably a limitation of the Saturn, but I highly doubt it would have been like Sonic Chronicles.
The true crime is not have a Phantasy Star for Saturn
At least, we have a Shining Force
What about Phantasy Star Collection?
@carlosaugustodinizgarcia3526 you know, the PS Collection is not a original game
The push for 3D was much bigger in North America than it was in Japan. The Japanese market still had tons of 2D titles throughout the Saturn's lifetime because people didn't care as much. But I understand your point as Sonic was mostly aimed at the North American audience so going 3D would have been the choice for the era.
Also the issue with multiplatform games is that you could tell exactly which hardware they were targeting. If the game was mainly made for the PS1, the Saturn version would have been compromised whereas it's the opposite if the game was mainly made for the Saturn. In terms of 3D capabilities the Saturn was better in my eyes but the difference is quads and difficult programming vs tris and easier programming on the PS1. North American developers especially struggled with the Saturn likely due to development kits not being as good. Hardware wise the Saturn was quite the beast and didn't suffer as much.
The saturn didnt really show what it could do till after the new dev kits with the upgraded software (i cant remember the name right now) which was used to make vf2 and vf remix. Texture quality improved really helped too
Being a "beast" in capabilities doesnt mean much if Saturn difficulty is extremely difficult.
Few devs could take advantage of Saturn's potential. In a full blown 3D Sonic game, Saturn would give Sega/Sonic Team the most difficulty.
Sonic Adventure is buggy on Dreamcast so chances are a full 3D Sonic game on Saturn would be more broken if given the same dev time
@@joshfacio9379If Sega made a Sonic game for PS1, chances are the game would actually be completed. Even if PS1 is technically not as powerful.
If a significant amount of time is spent trying to get something to work instead of working on the game itself
@@guyanesegal3166 I had already mentioned it was difficult to program for. Japanese developers had an easier time because they had better dev kits to assist in the making of their games. There absolutely were games that looked better on Saturn than they did on PS1.
Sonic Adventure 1 did originally start as a Saturn game but transitioned to Dreamcast to promote their new console. It had nothing to do with its difficulty to make games.
Plus, Sonic Adventure 1 did have quite the rocky development cycle. The game suffered from quite the crunch time and rush to get it out the door. The Dreamcast game did have it's fair share of bugs, it is by far the least buggy version of the game. Most of the more infamous bugs come from the late DX releases of Sonic Adventure.
@@guyanesegal3166 Sonic Adventure was also Sonic Team's first 3D sonic game as the last game, Sonic R, was made by Traveller's Tales.
Considering how Balan's Wonderland came to be, it's not surprising!
Nights into Dreams should’ve been Sonic Saturn IMO
Out of curiosity, do you know it if they used the same model of Sonic for NiGHTS and Sonic World?
Unsure if it's the same model, but the textures look different to me.
Those are 100% different models. P sure the NiGHTS model is slightly higher poly?
Sonic World is using the 3D Blast Special Stage and R model I think.
Sonic The Hedgehog Into Dreams looks more chibi.
I've played both Sonic into Dreams and Sonic Jam (if those were what you're comparing) and also every version of Sonic R, and Sonic into Dreams' model looks FREAKING WEIRD compared to all the others, XD. Also: Hi Larry!
@Larry
They look similar but different. Notice the ears' shape and the textures used drom each game.
I was Surprised Sega didn't make Sonic Playable in Fighters Megamix on the Saturn. They could of used the Sonic the Fighters 3D Model. Instead we got Bark and Bean from Sonic the Fighters and a Stage from Sonic the Fighters, but no Sonic, Tails or Knuckles.
There's probably a reason for that. Fighters Megamix was not supposed to be a "SEGA All-Stars Fighting Game", but a game celebrating fighting games from AM2 and their characters. If you think about it, Bark and Bean are the only characters created for an AM2 game, so that's why they wanted to use them. Maybe they actually didn't even want to use Sonic Team's characters.
@@SMSCovers Takeshi Iizuka headed Fighters Megamix Development. At the time(Mid 1996), There were plans to port Sonic The Fighters to Saturn using a Special 8 MB RAM Saturn X Cartridge. STF ran on Model 2 CRX which was SPECIALLY enhanced Model 2 Arcade hardware that used TT&L and even MIPS Mapping(Which would be incorporated into the Dreamcast) and even Software Anti Aliasing. For unknown reasons, The Port as well as the SATURN X Cartridge were all scrapped and abandoned in Early 1997.
I wonder how well the 32X CD tower of power could have managed Sonic Mania... not that it would have sold on that system even with a 1:1 attach rate.
I think while Doom was bad on Saturn, that was an issue with the porting process and John Carmack messing stuff up rather than technical shortfalls. Hexen is a very similar title with the tech it uses and holds up better which makes something like Robo Blast 2 seem more feasible. Also, Doom runs on the frickin' SNES in some way...
I think a Sonic game on the Saturn would best work if it was designed like Spyro the Dragon. Fairly big levels with space to run around but exploration focused to work around technical limitations of frame rate and draw distance. Put Tails on the flying levels.
That's an interesting question. After all, it ran Knuckles' Chaotix just fine. I think Sonic Team eventually took the Spyro the Dragon approach with Frontiers, although Sonic's World in Jam also feels a bit Spyro, now I think about it...
I wonder how some of these devs feel about Yuji Naka going to jail for insider trading years later lol. Bet it's cathartic
He's not going to jail.
@@BeaugosseRiche Correct. It was also Legal in Japan during the 90s. Its why CSK Holdings was able to SWINDLE SEGA and CHEAT Investors. Okawa died March 21,2001 not only leaving SEGA a $3 billion deficit, it was discovered in 2002 that he had been STEALING ROI and scamming shareholders. Its why CSK got shut down and why Sammy Corporation brought SEGA.
@@BeaugosseRiche You're right. He's in jail, right now.
@@HighPriestFuneral He was given a suspended sentence in 2023. Try again.
Heh karma funny
I still don't understand why Yuji Naka was so pissed about Sonic running on the NiGHTS Into Dreams engine. Like, imagine if Shigeru Miyamoto quit Nintendo because Ocarina of Time used Mario 64's engine? "But it was _his_ idea to do so!" Yes, it was, and it's a very normal thing to do. Also, just like Shiggy created Mario and Zelda, Yuji created Sonic and Nights... shouldn't be a problem.
I don't think it was the engine the problem, or the fact someone else was working on his creation, I think he just disliked the people of Sega of America, and the thought of them tinkering with his engine must've fused some bulbs in his head. you don't want people you dislike playing with your most precious creation, at least I wouldn't have it.
@@royareyzabal823 Yeah, but... he's taking "not being a team player" to ridiculous new heights. If I worked at the office with him, I'd write "WELCOME TO THE NEXT LEVEL of pettiness" across his desk or cubicle or wherever he worked.
@Wendy_O._Koopa The game looked like shit and he probably didn't want to be associated with it.
Miyamoto worked on both Mario 64 and Ocarina and in fact ocarina was originally laid out like Mario 64, with that same castle hub to individual levels structure. Naka, on the other hand, had zero involvement in X-Treme because it was being made by a completely different team on the opposite side of the Pacific Ocean. I’m not excusing his behavior, I think he was being extremely arrogant even if X-Treme was clearly fundamentally a poor 3D introduction for Sonic, but that definitely seemed to be his reasoning there
The Saturn is, by far, the most frustrating "what-if" story in gaming for me.
What if Bernie Stolar didn't cockblock the Saturn's access to JRPG and strategy titles? What if Sega didn't cannibalize themselves with the 32X and instead diverted all available resources to the Saturn? What if they didn't dump a second processor into the damn thing last minute, and instead had carefully planned the entire thing around two processors right from the beginning? What if it got a dedicated, main-line Sonic title, perhaps even a 3D precursor to Sonic Adventure? What if Shenmue had actually been completed for it, and had served as the catalyst for open-world games a full console generation earlier? The mind boggles.
I firmly believe that, had it been better thought out and properly marketed, the Saturn would have utterly thrashed the N64, and at least gone toe-to-toe with the PS1. It might have even better set up the Dreamcast for far more success, and beyond even that, only God knows.
And, biggest of all, what if they didn’t royally screw up its North American launch? It did good in Japan, but that E3 fiasco ruined everything before it ever got started over here. It was the Xbox One of its time basically
I think Yuji was so xeno that he really didn't like that the series was more popular outside of Japan. So much so that he just left the series to die around that time.
The issues with transparencies wasn't that the saturn couldn't do them, it's that they weren't possible in the same way like on the psx without compromise - iirc only one of the vdps had support for transparencies, (the one that did backgrounds) and the bit with sonic r was clever programming on the other vdp
Both could do transparencies just fine, but you could run into problems when what's behind your transparent object isn't drawn by the same VDP that drew that object.
VDP1 renders quadrilateral polygons off a display list provided by the CPUs and SCU, and can perform any colour maths that arise from these instructions to create lavish scenes full of transparent shapes overlapping each other just fine. VDP1 is not, however, ever able to touch any of the layers drawn by VDP2. It cannot factor the contents of VDP2's memory into any of its operations.
VDP2 meanwhile draws as many as four layers of tile maps (more similar to previous generations of game consoles in this way). It can also do transparencies just fine, though it doesn't draw over a single tile in a single layer twice to do it as would be most comparable to VDP1's operation. VDP2 must employ at least two layers to blend colours (this isn't a problem, just something to note), where the layer on top has all or part of itself rendered non-opaque to allow blending with what is beneath it.
Before the final scene is drawn to the screen, VDP2 reads the contents of the part of VDP1's framebuffer that it just drew its current frame to, and composites that as a layer among its own, sorts its layers as instructed by the game program, and applies whatever post-processing effects are asked for at that time, or scanline-based effects as it sends its output to the video encoder and out the wires to the screen. However it does not read (nor could it meaningfully interpret) the display lists that VDP1 used to draw its graphics. It cannot go back into VDP1's rendered image and make changes...at least not in hardware. One could in theory use it to plot pixels over that image in software but god why, just use another layer you have four.
@@fisherdotoggI was going to recommend Low Score Boy’s video, but this is a pretty comprehensive explanation. It’s so weird. Some games have overlapping transparent objects, but most don’t. And there are almost always caveats.
@@opaljk4835 As far as I recall, when VDP2 reads the framebuffer output of VDP1 for final compositing, there is no alpha data transferred- the VDP1's render is considered to be a fully opaque bitmap, and while VDP2 can totally composite that layer as transparent, it can only apply transparency to the entire layer because it has no context for what was supposed to be see-through and what was not.
@@fisherdotogg Isn't that what Sonic R did, though? Portions of the VDP1 render (i.e., the rainbow track) were turned transparent and composited with the VDP2 background, while other portions (the characters, etc.) were left opaque.
@3dmarth Oh true! Maybe alpha is preserved, it makes the most sense given that
I remember in 1996 reading in an Ultra Game Players magazine that Sonic X-treme was "delayed indefinitely." As the only kid in my class with a Sega Saturn, I was pretty disappointed. The whole fiasco about this game in particular (and the "what-ifs" about the Saturn in gereral) is still fascinating to me 28 years later!
I had similar feelings with the dreamcast!
@@sevbaileyify I became friends with a classmate simply because we were both the only kids in class who had a Dreamcast.
Well, I know X-Treme wasn't the focus of this video, but I just wanted to clarify that the level design shown in the Voxel recreation was Incomplete Level design made for a 1997 also canceled PC version of the game, the Level Design for X-Treme was going to be completely different and made by Hirokazu Yasuhara (Level Designer on Sonic 1/2/3K) himself, there are even concepts and files of it here and there
13:32 "Ha ha ha ha! If it isn't Sonic!" X7 Must be a funny ass hedgehog
"Saturn can't do 3D" is ludicrous, who would even say that? Weren't most games 3D???
It was an afterthought to add a second chip for 3D capabilities. Saturn was originally designed to battle the Jaguar. The prototype focused on 2D sprite scaling.
@@DontKnowDontCare6.9There is also an anecdote floating around about the Jaguar, where Sega made the devs of the console to shove in a second CPU in the thing to compete with the Jaguar.
@@DontKnowDontCare6.9 Looking at what the VDP1 and VDP2 chip could do in the saturn I doubt it. One of them did background layers, and the one that does 2D sprites is the same that does 3D polygons. If they removed the 3D chip they'd also remove the 2D chip and be stuck with only scaling and rotating backround images. It doesn't make sense to me.
@@DontKnowDontCare6.9 That's nice.
It's still a 3D console. "It can't do 3D" is a ridiculous thing to say. Nobody who's ever played it would say that.
@@DontKnowDontCare6.9Saturn is conceptually a mix of the System32 and the Model1.
Saturn was conceived as a 3D console, but less powerful, originally it would have been similar to the 3DO in power.
Now Hideki Sato himself specified in interviews that the decision to be a 2D/3D machine was to take advantage of their old equipment and make a smooth transition to 3D, since outside of AM2 and AM3 there were no internal work teams with expertise or experience working in 3D environments.
Now the VDP1 together with the second SH2 could do by brute force software much of what the VDP2 ended up doing by hardware.
Regarding the double processor, that was the case from the beginning, one SH2 controlled everything and the second working as slaves would help the first SH2 and the VDP(1) for certain tasks.
However, Hitashi had problems delivering information to Sega about the operation of the SH2, which delayed the task of making tools for the DevKit a lot.
That animated avatar really looks like it's from a visual novel game for the Sega Saturn, very good detail!
Thanks, I'm glad you liked it.
this is a great video on the state of the saturn's game and great fangames with the same aesthetic! very comprehensive. props for mentioning bug, which sonic even appears in
I was expecting (and looking forward to) a traditional 2d sonic (sonic 4?) on the saturn.
More colour, more sprites, faster processing and the inclusion of 3d effects, CD music etc would have made it the game of the year. And then, the special stages would have been something seen in this vid.
Sega missed a trick here with something that wasn't broken (sonic 1-3). Any 3D only game could have come later. I think many like me just wanted classic Sonic with 100s of colours onscreen, amazing music and additions to the games framework
I agree i would have loved a sonic 4 on saturn that took advantage of the systems 2D capabilities. But we tend to forgot starting in around 1996 everyone was on the 3D hype train. A lot of really great 2D games got dismissed for being 2D and suffered from poor sales. So while I agree it would have been awesome, when put up against Mario 64 and crash bandicoot i dont think it would have fared well in sales or reviews.
@pranksforall7397 I agree with what you say especially when comparing it against Mario 64 etc. But the fan base for sonic would have resulted in Sonic 4/Saturn selling out very quickly worldwide. I suppose it would received the same anticipated excitement that Sonic CD received.
@pranks4all but a 2D Sonic game would have sold well. Furthermore a 2D Sonic game would actually be completed
The 3D Sonic games never sold as well as Mario or Crash Bandicoot. Not even on Dreamcast. If 3D is necessary, make it 2.5D
This comment and those who agree with it (like I do) are exactly why Mania's initial reveal (and Mania Plus's reveal) were met with EXPLOSIVE CHEERING. Mania feels like Sonic Saturn.
Man I remember thinking about an alternative timeline of what if a proper Sonic Saturn game was made, as otherwise that was the start of the downfall, at least for the Sega consoles.
I feel like this would be a timeline where Nintendo was the one that went down
I think the 32X, the surprise launch stunt, the difficulty of developing 3D games for the Saturn, and the infighting between the Japanese and American branches of Sega had more to do with what happened than the lack of a Sonic game.
When people say that Saturn can't do 3D, show them the Unreal demo for saturn. :)
Even the Sonic Jam level or basically any other of the high quality 3D games should be enough. Just an odd machine.
Burning Rangers is already a counterargument.
@@ikagura people often criticize that game for being short and a little unpolished. In my experience it’s a fantastic game…but radiant Silvergun also is very impressive
@@opaljk4835 I love RS.
It's more 2D in gameplay but still impressive visually for the hardware.
Nights into Dreams is also genuinely graphically good for '96.
The Saturn is my favorite console; I wish Sonic Adventure and Shenmue made their debut on the Saturn...
I think these games may not become as great as they are if they were released on such a limited hardware
Greetings, the truth is that in those years I would have loved to see a Sonic in 3D.
Now, the problem of thinking about it 30 years after the appearance of Saturn is that we are contaminated with modern Sonic, but some ideas come to mind thinking of games like Panzer Dragoon, Cyber Speedway, Daytona USA, the remains of Sonic Xtreme, Step Slow Sliders, Winter Heat, Scorcher, Sonic 3D Blast "Bonus Stage" or Sonic R.
Although I mention some games from 1997, it is to exemplify that it would take a similar approach to Sonic Unleashed, in its Day version, Sonic moving through an obstacle course just like we saw in Crash Bandicoot, but varying to 2.5D sections or levels like modern Sonic, thus having a fast and dynamic gameplay.
It would not be impossible on the system and the Poping could be hidden between Fog and background images that help to hide it.
Sonic R is a fantastic game. Super unique for the racing genre to have exploration so core to the experience. And the sound and art are gorgeous.
The Saturn is more than capable of running Sonic Robo Blast 2 at 60 fps. It's a shame nothing similar came out.
That's because Saturn is actually a 64-bit system.
@segaunited3855 if you really want to get technical, it's 112 bits.
@@hoobaguy The Internal Documentation as well as the Hitachi SH-2 PDF documentation show SATURN as a 64-bit Console using similar Makeup as Nintendo 64's NECVR4300. With More ICs and a slightly weaker 64-bit Bus. SATURN was heavily overengineered as well. With Over 8 different Processors.
Saturn used Brute Force. It was TRULY well ahead of PSX.
A Saturn Sonic game could have worked like this:
- Pandemonium-like 2.5D levels using 3D polygons for the foreground and 2D VDP2 backgrounds, mantaining the tried and true 2D gameplay but with some cool camera angles and none of the fidgety gameplay or issues of Sonic Adventure's gameplay
- hub map like Mario 64 using an environment like Sonic World
- special stages like the Saturn version of Sonic 3D
When i heard Sonic Robo Blast 2 was made on a version of the doom engine, i was like “I thought the art style looked familiar!!” 😂
I'm glad at least a few people out there agree with me that Sonic X-Treme would have been a massive failure even if it were completed and released, but it had a doomed history from the start. I think the ideas planned for it were very cool, but I develop games as a hobby and I can tell you that mismanaging a project is a surefire way to kill it.
If you hunger for a Saturn Sonic game then play Sonic Rono Blast 2 with the 3D models, great game and the "missing link" between StH3 and SA1
Great minds. Keep watching. 😉
The first build of the game was released online in late 1998- before Sonic Adventure was released. It literally is the missing link and the game in between those 2.
That Christmas Nights demo disc was amazing for its time, i played it for sooo many hours back in the day.
It had an insane amount of replay value and unlockables.
Learning about the potentiality of a Sonic game in the Saturn is always so interesting to me because of how much people talk about X-treme. I hope with more fan games and the such we get a better idea of that Saturn game and it would be fun time for a SAGE expo too!
You’re right that a 2d sonic game wouldn’t have gone down well at the time (but probs would have aged well).
The hype around moving into the 32-bit generation was all about 3d.
For the record, Naka has personally said that the reason he said no to using the NiGHTs engine was that NiGHTs was programmed in Assembly, and X-treme was being programmed in C, so there was no chance it would be easily applied.
The work shown off of X-treme, especially the fish eye stuff, was for sure not using the NiGHTs engine, and the claims that STI even got tools for practicing with the NiGHTs engine are also disputed.
With that said, Naka was probably still an ass, and it's fair to give some doubt to his word too, if you give doubt to the word of STI employees. I just figured it was worth mentioning.
I think even if they were granted access to the NiGHTS engine, it wouldn't have been enough. Not only because they would effectively start from scratch, but I also think the STI team were mentally and physically spent by then. Maybe Ofer Alons PC port attempt had a chance. But the level design for that looked rather dull despite some flashy 3d elements
I got gifted a Sega Saturn from a friend. Clockwork Knight is pretty good.
I remember finding Clockwork Knight a tad slow-paced. Maybe I should revisit it sometime?
Thats a good friend!
Great video! Wish they released a Sonic game for the Saturn. As a kid I was disappointed when the Saturn didn’t release an official Sonic title. I was happy about Sonic JAM. Even a 2D title would’ve been great
solid video as always!
Sonic Mania went for the Megadrive nostalgia in marketing, but it felt more like a Saturn game
I recognize that voice! I'm surprised you're still around, Afr0blu3.
I never went away 😉
I remember a Gamesack episode mentioning that the Saturn was more powerful than the PS1 on paper but that it tended to come across as worse due to being so tough to program for (I can't remember the exact episode name but it specifically compared the two consoles head-to-head). As neat as a game like Sonic Adventure would have been on the Saturn, I agree that one which was like Robo Blast 2 with 3D Blast's special stages seems more plausible with the tech. I'll admit Sonic Xtreme looks like it would have been too slow to really work as a Sonic game.
Its Simple. Xtreme was NEVER meant for Saturn. It didn't belong on there. It was designed and developed from the ground up on 32X. Robo Blast 2 uses Doom Legacy, a Mid 90s Mapping Engine that utilized Texture Mapping and Bit Map Layering which are Features that are PERFECT 1000% for SATURN hardware.
@@segaunited3855 Looking at how much more advanced Xtreme seemed to be than Sonic Mars, I'd be surprised if the 32X could have handled it to be honest (unless you're referring to Mars and the fact that Xtreme evolved from that).
@@tempestfennac9687 Xtreme's 32X demos were running on MARS Prototypes instead of 32X itself.
There was at the very least a potential 3D stopgap game feasible if Sega could have coordinated better.
Imagine this: Sonic Jam's Sonic World was a proper hubworld that featured actual stages you could enter. Those stages were the 3D special stages of Sonic 3D Blast- endless runner/platformer stages, with maybe a bit more complexity to some later designs. Not totally free to control as you can't slow down or anything, and the stages are extremely linear, so it'd be clear this isn't trying to be a sequel to Sonic 3 and Knuckles or a predecessor to Adventure, but I can imagine this would be a good way to get somewhat lengthy levels out of a Saturn game by keeping them straightforward and always moving.
As another "side game," you have Sonic R. All 5 maps, all the characters. However, rather than having characters unlocked in the racing challenges, you can use the 3D Blast special stages to collect Chaos Emeralds instead, feeding into each other. And the character models in Sonic R are, thus, repurposed into the special stages in some way, so for example, you can actively battle-race Metal Sonic, or smash up Metal Knuckles, Tails Doll, and Egg Robo.
Beating the stages and races unlocked various rewards (like perhaps the artwork, commercials and promos, and whatnot you saw in the original Sonic World, if there's still enough space on the disc for it all), and beating all stages, getting all Chaos Emeralds, and getting 1st place in all races gives you the ability to use Super Sonic in the hub world, in the runner stages, and in the races. If this is released late enough (like Q2 1998), this could also theoretically lead to a final unlockable at the very end, a mysterious promo featuring a green-eyed Sonic and his new adventure on Sega's upcoming console. But if it's a 1997 game, consider it the Sonic 3D Blast we should have gotten.
There you have it: all three parts in full, but gloriously low-poly 3D. It's not a "full game" per se, as I can't imagine there'd be much of a story. More a collection of stages cobbled together, and the sum of its parts adds up to something that's not going to be on par with Mario 64 or Crash Bandicoot, but if this released in late 1997 or early 1998, it would have been at the very least a fun little stopgap towards Sonic Adventure, and undoubtedly Sonic fans would have retroactively come to appreciate it as the series' first major step into 3D (though I can also imagine the fandom wars over whether this "TRUE Sonic 3D Blast" cuckslapped Adventure 1 deserving that title more, since I can absolutely see some complaining about Sonic's first major foray into 3D being a spinoff loose collection of running and racing stages, which would seem embarrassing against Mario and Crash, and they'd wonder about what if Sonic Adventure instead was the first "real" 3D game).
Personally I'd have loved to see this be the first 3D Sonic game if only because that jazzadelic Y2K-meets-Memphis style Genesis/Saturn-era of Sonic is so fascinating to me and seeing it in 3D before Adventure went into its own direction would have been fascinating.
Only problem being that there's no way Yuji Naka would have worked with Traveler's Tales in good enough faith to lend them Sonic World as a sort of central hub, and they were already pressed for time as it was.
8:26 The twisters of the 3D Blast Saturn Special Stages also made a comeback in Taxman/Stealth's 2013 RSDK version of Sonic 2 within the secret 8th Special Stage they added through the Level Select!
Fun Fact: 2 Sonic games were actually sabotaged by Yuji Naka. Sonic X-Treme and Sonic Extreme.
Whats Sonic Extreme?
A prototype (made by outsider game devs) of Sonic Riders introduced to Naka, who never returned their call. Sonic Team then made their own snowboarding game months later.
This explains how sonic adventure aged way better than other series first 3d entrys
A RUclips channel called Low Poly shows a lot of fake gameplay of sonic adventure running on a saturn. It's like staring into an alternative time line
Sonic world in Sonic Jam is my favorite 3D model of Sonic. I love how his spines stick out further when he hits top speed
To be fair most of your transparency examples aren't 3D models. But I suppose the search light from the helicopter in Virtua Fighter counts. (around the 16 min mark)
Well, I must say I've often wondered why there was this bizarre gap between Sonic 3 and Knuckles and Sonic Adventure. This video does a hell of a good job explaining why. There was supposed to be an awesome 3D title inbetwen them that was scrapped and split into 5 or 6 different games on the Sega Saturn.
The Plan B for Saturn Sonic was called "Project Sonic" and Jam, Blast Saturn and R seem to be part of all that. Pandemonium's deep dig on the leaked Sega America 1997 annual report indicates a growing awareness/ frustration that Saturn wasn't really getting anywhere.
By late 1997 Sega Japan and Sega America were already working on their proposed successor to Saturn and knew the systems days were numbered after that holiday. Sonic Adventure was announced in the fall of 1998 and enough dev was done to have Windy Valley, Speed Highway and Red Mountain levels ready for the media reveal that year. So they must have switched to early "Katana" dev kits sometime in 1997. I could believe early concepts were for Saturn, but quickly moved to Katana when possible. Very early screenshots of Sonic Adventure feature the Sonic R models - specifically the early Sky Chase stage with the original Egg Carrer transforming into a dragon.
To answer the question. I think the only way we would have gotten an acceptable 3D Sonic is if Sega had engaged Travellers Tales immediately after Sonic 3D released on Genesis. Or told Sonic Team to make new Sonic Games - but then NiGHTS and Burning Rangers wouldn't exist. Otherwise I think the only realistic option for a "proper" Sonic on Saturn would have been a 2D release. Anything else wouldn't come out on time before Saturn was internally considered "done"
To this day I am still waiting a sequel to Sega Saturn's Sonic R.
Honestly, with the reception of the designs in latter 2024 from the obvious Ssturn inspiration styles for: Shadow, Sonic, Knuckles, Tails, Eggman/Ivo in the movie 3 song "Run It" they should just make a Sonic game in the style withiout the limitations that once existed. Honestly think it'd be a big hit.
Highly surprised this video played with no ads
I've seem a video today in which they ported Sonic Robo Blast 2 to run nativly on a 32X. Absolutly Impressive.
If only that had released a few weeks earlier, would have really helped my argument. XD Oh well, glad it's out now and very impressed with the results.
“Not the cheapest or easiest thing to get a hold of” I have a tip for those of you looking! You can still get a Japanese Saturn for under $100 (I ordered mine on eBay for $75 including shipping!) and grab yourself an inexpensive Saroo or ODE. I got a Fenrir for mine, but that was before Saroo was an option. Why Saroo/ ODE? Well, Saturn games are quite expensive, hard to find in decent non scratched condition, but most importantly.. English fan translations and dubs!
Was "Christmas nights" unlockable in the nights into dreams game, also could you choose sonic as a secret character?
Christmas NiGHTS was included in the Steam, PS3 and Xbox 360 re-releases of NiGHTS; however, they don't seem to include the Sonic into Dreams mode.
Would love to have a time machine to back in time and either have certain things release or being able to give some kind of insight for a release to happen
I'm kind of torn on that, because it risks losing Sonic R and the Sonic Adventure we did eventually get, and I love those games.
Sonic Galactic is for me what a 32bit 2D Sonic could have looked like. It's 3D bonus stages are not that cool, though. The pressure of jumping to 3D might have been Saturn's Sonic demise. The Saturn was a 2D powerhouse. A 2D game that pushed Saturn's capabilities to its limits would have been amazing. A 2D Sonic Galactic style game with Sonic R style extended bonus stages would be the perfect combination for me.
PS: Christmas Nights has a special place in my heart. Gave me A LOT of playing hours for a "demo/bonus disc with all its hidden secrets. Remember that changing the clock/date could reveal more secrets? April 1st, July 20th, August, October , and October 31st for Halloween!!
Saturn was a BEAST for 3D and 2D rendering. The real problem is that it was the PS3 of its generation. We can see in games like Burning Rangers that they had a Real rought time trying to optimize and get it at a somewhat decent framerate. Because of it being a rather complex game visually, the loading of textures struggled a lot. this is more of an issue of ease of development than the hardware itself. 🦈
I feel like the only way the Sega Saturn could've had a Sonic game was to basically make it a Sega Saturn's Klonoa
I loved my sonic games on the saturn, I got sonic jam, sonic 3d blast, I didn't get sonic r for saturn but I had it for pc long ago. I learned to repair my saturn after its disc drive died playing sonic 3d blast. But sonic world could have been expanded on in sonic jam and a game made using this base code and engine. The doom port had a documentry written on it, and its short falls comes from the fact that the person that handled the port handled the port to many other systems and time constraints of it were rushed out. The port of hexen to saturn which uses the doom engine shows this to be the case as hexen saturn is very different than doom saturn. Hexen saturn is very odd it has cut scenes which the original didn't have.
Considering Sonic being grounded wasn't the best idea they could've made him Super Sonic in the Nights game. Giving him the ability to fly & made new stages dedicated for him but similar to Nights gameplay wise
The Yuji Naka NiGHTS code story has never been corroborated, as far as I know. Has anybody backed it up, beyond hearsay and conjecture?
Anyway, Sonic The Fighters absolutely should have gotten a Saturn port.
The Saturn needed both a 2D and a proper 3D Sonic game. Knights Into Dreams also needed a sequel and most Arcade conversions for the console needed way more content than what was given.
Also Sega should've never stopped making the Sega Genesis, their best selling and still popular console.
I honestly like the dithered look for transparencies lol
YOOOO!!! I wanna let you know about an upcoming sega Saturn fan game that I’m directing! It’s called Sonic Ringworlds, it will be inspired by sonic adventure, featuring the og cast. As well as pc port but we’re aiming to release it on real saturn hardware
Subbed and belled for that comment. I am EXCITE!
as of now, I decided to make a separate channel for the project, search “Team Ringworlds Backup” @TeamRIB
9:18 "Thank you privateye for making this mod." (Shows screenshot of privateye crediting bbayles.) :P
Why couldn't Yuji Naka be perfect like a God? Imagine how'd an altered history have played out if he was?
I wonder what Knuckles Chaotix Special Stages would look like on the Saturn. Maybe it could have potential if combined with the other concepts you present in this video.
sonic 4 being cancelled on the saturn sealed sonics death warrant
They couldn't handle them well was the argument, not that that they couldn't do them. The problem was it was pretty hard to make it properly run well, and when you are developing a project, you don't want to aim for "It might be okay".
A Sonic game with a mainly 2.5D game, seemless 3D cut scene level transitions, with 3D bonus levels like Sonic R, and 3D boss arenas... Should have been doable
Looks like someone hadn't payd enough attention while collecting chaoes emeralds through Saturn's Sonic 3D: the dash in the middle of some courses is a boost and they are needed to get into some ring gates sooner to get more rings.
Sure... you don't need always to have more rings than needed for pass into another section and get the emerald in the end (which can be easy for some - never was for me, specially as teenager back into 1998), BUT it can max out the results of the score when finishing the bonus levels - and let's not forget that play videogames was all about high scores and competition back till some point in the 2000s.
And about Sonic R: i could took some ideas wrong due to a too quick comment about it in the video, but the game was really made to put the player to feel and learn how to control the characters, that has different stats each (some accel faster, some reach higher speeds, some more easier, etc) AND despite turning with the directional inputs (doesn't matter if dpad or an analogue stick), the bumpers can make the character took sharper turns.
>bsky
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The Satern could have been a great chance for Sega to get way ahead of the competition. They could have released a game like Robo Blast, and like Mania, in the same year. If they did that, they would cement themselves as a company that will make the jump to 3D, but won't discard their legacy in the process. Then they could release the Adventure games on Dreamcast alongside a new pair of 2d games. Maybe something like the Advance series. If Sega did this, they would have a reputation for retro style games development over a decade before the retro boom, and would be remembered for it when the time came.
Had I been in charge of Sega when the 32 bit era was coming, I’d have made the Saturn a 3D powerhouse, but still with a good amount of 2D functionality, easier to develop for and backwards compatible with Mega Drive and Mega CD games! I’d also ensure a strong 1st party lineup, including a version of Virtua Fighter 2 that includes all of VF1’s content (looking back, it’s still a letdown that VF1 on the Saturn isn’t as big a package as Super Street Fighter 2 on the Mega Drive!) and I’d definitely have a new Sonic game ready for the US and PAL launches! Sonic 4 would have some 2D stages with 3D effects (like Clockwork Knight) and some 4-way stages (like Bug!) while Sonic 5, which I’d aim to have out halfway through 1997, would be a full 3D experience that can rival Mario 64!
It didn't even need to be Sonic Mars, Xtreme, or Adventure. A souped-up port of Sonic 3&K with CD quality music and real-time 3D special stages for a launch title would have moved twice as many units as the Saturn sold in the US over its entire lifespan.
Thank you for this video
It just pisses me off that Naka threw a hissy fit because someone else was using his engine?
I mean why?
Did he even own the engine?
yes it was his he was a coder and programmer at sega
@@fazelfarrokhi1998 Still a bitch move, though. Would it have killed him to let someone else in the company make a game with it?
If he just asked for extra royalties...but no he decided to be a petulant turd and sabotage an innocent developer already cruelly overworked.
@@fazelfarrokhi1998Being a coder doesn't make someone an owner of something. I am a programmer myself and I own nothing I made, it's a price for my salary.
Sonic Mania and anything like it was never gonna end up on the Saturn (or even Dreamcast) or really anything at all until maybe 2010 or so.
During the Saturn era when games started the jump to 3D most people had little to no interest in 2D anymore cause it was yesterday’s news and 3D is the new thing and blah blah blah.
Then in about the early 2000’s with the DC/PS2/GCN/XB era people still weren’t making many 2D games, especially not for most mainline franchises like Sonic, Mario, etc. and definitely not after seeing how much 3D changed series like Metal Gear and Final Fantasy financial.
Megaman X4 and Megaman 8 along with Street Fighter Alpha and other high profile 2D games were not received the best for simply not being 3D games.
2000’s most 2D were either from smaller studios or part of a compilation rerelease of 90’s 2D games.
Wasn’t till about 2009ish when new releases of 2D games started getting popular again, so I highly doubt you’d ever see something like Sonic mania until mid 2000’s at the earliest and that’s still very far fetched.
Street Fighter Alpha 3 sold 6 million. The highest selling 3D Sonic game from 2000-2024 only sold 3 million. On Sega Saturn, Street Fighter outsold all Sonic games combined.
On Sega Saturn. Sonic R, 3D Blast, Sonic Jam combined could not outsell a single a single Street Fighter Alpha game
@@chimericalical In that case thank god for handhelds like the Game Gear, Neo Geo Pocket, Gameboy, GBA and DS where smaller low budget 2D games still had a place to flourish.
I've been asking myself the same question. I think it would have been a really well-made 2D game if sega saturn had a sonic game
The 32X is running a competent in-progress port of Sonic Robo Blast 2... if you blended that pure software SH-2 code with some accelerated 3D (for the water effects especially) and more RAM (maybe even the RAM cart), you'd get improved framerate, draw distance, and better textures. Side note: the port of SRB2 and the new Doom Resurrection (and Fusion) show what 3D on the 32X should have been.
So. I think we ended up on one of the better timelines all things considered.
IF Sonic Adventure managed to be a Saturn game with shorter Cutscenes and grainer dialogue/music (maybe it could of been a multidisciplinary game with fewer characters) then we wouldn't of gotten the Sonic Adventure 2 many of us care so much about.
IF Sonic Roboblast was essentially made for Saturn and Sonic Adventure 1 and 2 still came-to-be then you'd have a Hard Divide between the Sonic 1/2/3/& Knuckles players, the Roboblast players who'd insist their game was superior due to hybridisation of the 2/3D aspects and Faster (despite optimization issues) and the Sonic Adventure 1+2 (who often have divided opinions anyways despite both games having great Chemistry/sharing DNA with eachother) would take the narrative stance over the 2D and 2.5D titles (and Sonic would lose further appreciation).
The slightly better timeline than would not disturb The Balance too much is if the Saturn could actually Load Mega Drive/Genesis games and 32X games (at no extra cost) with a few ports of cancelled Sega CD games (in this timeline) such as a fully realized version of Sonic CD made to run smoothly on the Saturn with higher quality Cutscenes (for each level) with the aid of the Video CD unit.
love the animated avatar, first time watching and after the conclusion of the video i subscribed
Thank you! I usually do on camera sections with my webcam and wanted to try something different, so I'm really glad people are responding well to it.
The shady ass presents in xmas nights omfg
Now hold on. We dont know the terms of the tech and software created. Back in the 90s, devs had a LOT more control and ownership of the platforms they spents their lifes work creating.
They could of been using the nights engine WITHOUT consent, royalties or even credit.
I think not many people talked about this era in SEGA's history simply because of the mere fact that the Saturn wasn't a good sellable console. It didn't sell well and I don't think many people brought it and therefore not many people from that time ownd one. With not many folks purchasing a Saturn and the console having a severely short life span in the mainstream market, a lot of us just like to look at this era when as the final years of SEGA products.
When looking back at this decade, the console wars have just proven that SEGA didn't have it in them to fully compete against the likes of Nintendo or the then new PlayStation. The 90s really was a confusing and hectic time for video games since the 16bit era only lasted for about a six years or so until everything went full 3D by the later half of the decade. So in some or most cases, all video game companies back then were really being rushed to push out new and innovative things while SEGA didn't seem to have that kind of momentum. That, and SEGA was just a completely different business compared to Nintendo. Which is why SEGA always struggled and had problems with game development for the foreseeable future. Nintendo I think was more organized and got a grip when it came to making new consoles which is why I think they didn't struggled as much during the 2000s as much as SEGA and Sonic Team did.
SEGA's business structure also changed after declaring they would be becoming a third party developer and was riddled with a lot of mismanagement hence how we got the adventure era as I believe all those games during this time had troubled productions especially leading up to Sonic '06.
When it comes to SEGA products, people may only fondly remember the 16bit consoles like the Mega drive/Genesis because it really was the only successful product that SEGA eve had back then. I'm afraid that when people look back at history, for the people who never owned or had a personal experience witu the SEGA Saturn, a lot of people will just breeze past Saturn and Dreamcast as the general public will only remember that it was a failed product. Unfortunately it's very hard to find old retro hardware since offical demakes aren't really a thing. If you're not a game reviewer, most people just don't want to put in the extra effort to actually find or hunt down these products of a bygone era because we live in a completely different time now where we can just download or pirate retro games with newer hardware. People are lazy and that's just a fact of our nature as human beings. We shouldn't feel the need to keep on hunting and gathering for old useless media because everything should already be available to us at our finger tips.
Instead of daydreaming about an unrealistic perfect alternate reality, we should all just be grateful for what we have right now and just hope that the current state of Sonic games can just try to move forward by learning from the past to make better decisions in the future. After playing Frontiers, I can roughly conclude that in that game, it's Sonic Team seldomly returning back to the hubworlds and 3D platform style long lost since the adventure era being brought back in a new way. We should be more nostalgic for that than just getting more classic Sonic titles. I think it's about time the 2000s era Sonic should have it's well deserved renaissance in the sunlight again.
there are many interesting ponts you raise in this video. I think a realistic example of what a 3d Sonic woul've been like on Saturn would be NinPen Maru. It runs pretty smoothly, handles reasonably well and the movement of the ninja penguin feels fairly parkour focused. The main aim of the game is to navigate the platforms to get to the end of the level. I did read that people thought the engine was based on the one used in Sonic Jam, but I don't think it is. Ninpen maru is well worth a look and I'd be interested to hear what others say.
As for Sonic Extreme, I suspect that Naka knew the limits of the hardware and the engine better than STI. Even if Xtreme did come out, it probably woul've been too odd to play. People would've complained about the view point and how it doesn't match what Sonic is about (or something).
I hadn't heard of Ninpen Maru before. I just looked up some gameplay and will be putting that on my Satiator ODE. Thanks for the heads up.
It’s a shame what happened with Sega America and Sega Japan it’s always due to some individuals or jealousy instead of working as a team and I remember as a kid here in Australia back then i always wonder why we never got proper Sonic game on Saturn only to found out later as a adult what happened any way great video 👍 mate
Does that early demo sonic extreme exist somewhere?
It was frustrating to see that an actual 3D Sonic has never been released on Saturn, especially after releasing 3D platforms like Bug! (where Sonic does also appear) and Bug! Too. But didn't know at all about the deveolpment of this.
Final Fantasy on Saturn: What Could Have Been?
The reason Naka shook his head and just said "good luck" was probably because the game looks, runs, and plays like hot ass. There are multiple prototypes out there for players to try out, and it's just a really bad experience.
I was never those child’s waiting for a sonic game on Saturn. The sonic ride video clip in sonic jam was exciting . I imagined sonic to play like klonoa 2.5d I ended switching from Saturn to ps1
Is there a Pc Fangame that allows you play with the hub of Sonic Jam?
I would have died if I got a Saturn Sonic Adventure.
Saturn sonic from Sonic Jam is the cutest sonic ever!
edit - you need to tell us what exact mods you layered to get your recordings, it looks so mint!
Please list the Sonic Adventure mods used in the video to make it look like a Saturn game. I wish to install them as well, they look amazing!
I'm sure all those devs that Naka pissed off are smirking at him now 😂