BabelFilm:#1 In fact the agencies DO TEACH TO DIVE DEEP ON AIR. I was trained by TDI, all my TDI instructors were and some still are deep air divers. I was trained to dive down to 60 m for 20 minutes (Extended Range class, (ER) within the course and dove on air on a regular basis with TDI course directors , i.e. did my 111 meters air dive (one hundred and eleven meters) with my instructor. That time an "Instructor" represented a "dive training system" for me.
ernestridge: That's really interesting! Did you watch our new doc. "The Idyinsyncrasies of Russian National diving"? I deleted the "drinking episode" from the film,and I awfully regret that I did... I'm Russian, but I couldn't believe in it, may be because I've never done it and never seen anyone around me who did drink before the dive..
Elena Konstantinou Great documentary... I wonder if the apparent phenomenon of technical diving deaths of Russian males could be attributed somewhat to the country being relatively landlocked with a climate not really suited for the development of recreational swimming/beach culture in the way such a culture exists as a way of life in other countries, like Australia for example. If so it could help to explain the apparent increased overtly risky behavior and inflated perception of ability common among technical diving drowning victims. And can a corollary be drawn between technical and scuba diving deaths involving Russian males, or not?
Buceoloco: I completely agree with you.That's why I made that documentary. They should have cancelled the dive but they didn't cancel it. Everyone who died in the BH (or anywhere esle) should have cancelled their dives t be honest with you. If everyone thinks the same way like you do, there would be no accidents.
So when we say there is the limit for 30 m in regards of air diving we mostly mean "a recreational" (one tank) diving. In tech diving (diving on mixed gases) they use 30 m as an "Equivalent Narcotic Depth" to calculate an optimal gas mix for a deep dive. BabelFilm #3 In other words, diving 100 m deep on mixed gases you're "narced" as if you are at 30 m. deep (i.e. much less!)
um... It says they found some equipment at 170 m... What is exactly the depth of the blue hole? I thought it was 130 m at the most. And how is it possible to simply disappear? like the other guy who turned off his torch (that one was really insane)... The current that flows into the hole is so powerful or what? And please, i'd like to know if there is a link to the whole documentary? These tiny episodes have already kept me glued to the chair.
true. But as you can imagine it is hard to look at your bubbles when it's completely dark. And when you turn on your lights it will take some time to regain orientation once you've lost it. Especially at bigger depths. And maybe you lost boyancy while you tried to find out which way is up and it's already too late. What i try to say is that the reasons for diving accidents may seem small from the surface. But they are big enough to kill you when you are down there.
2nd try: Hi Overseasmedia. Yes, you do make a point. Still, I think an experienced buddy team cancles the plan for such a dive when they note that visibility is much poorer than expected. At the very least, they should stuck together closely. Diving on trimix is not a life insurance, especially if you cannot directly ascend to the surface (like in the Blue Hole), no matter what´s the maximum depth in your logbook (this does not prove "experience" or "professional diver", anyway).
GOneScUBA:#2 The Egyptian guide and Andrey's buddy stayed between 50-60 m deep and Andrey went deeper.(76 + m?) You know the rest of the story, bad vis., Andrey was lost and his ody was never found. The most weird thing is that the guys were supposed to leave to Moscow the next day, that was there first dive in the BH (for me sounds exaclty like Yuri L.'s story!)
BabelFilm#2 so for me that was "a training agency" (TDI) that was promoting deep air dives if they agency didn't support that "idea" they would have desqualified those instructors. The same is related to SDI, SSI, IANTD, etc. Hall Watts (PSI agency) - deep air diving agency. It literally teaches you to dive "deep on air".
Buceoloco: Sorry!!! I have just lost your comment, (I assume that I pressed the "remove" instead of "reply" by mistake!) could you send it to me once again please? You were talking aout trimix dives and thay he should have cancelled the dive..Thanks a lot, and sorry once again
GOneScUBA:#1 Thank you very much once again for your comment! About Andrey's dive I can only say what I learned from his buddy: they had 2 different dive plans: smth like 78 m for 15min for Andrey and his buddy planned 60 m for 20 min(he was less experienced) There was one more guy (Egyptian Instructor or a dive master) who was supposed to guide the guys through the Arch...
It was very chilling to hear his buddy talk about how well prepared they were for this dive. Over and over, when there is an accident, I hear divers claim that it had to be stupidity, lack of training, etc. I don't think we can write it all off that easily. Diving is risky. Deep diving is riskier. The Blue Hole is too risky for me.
Hi there, Andrey didn't consider the 60 m dive in the BH as "a walk in the park", that was just the way he explained it to his wife, so she wouldn't worry about that dive, he spent a week diving in Sharm down to 120 m on tmx. That was not what he "thought", that was just what he said to his wife. Did I make a sense?
BabelFilm #7 Anyway, the deep air was ONE of the problems that caused Andrey's death. Another BIG problem was his "solo dive". I don't mention it in the film but I KNOW that Andrey and his buddy had different "dive plans" that means they were supposed to "separate" during their dive, that ultimately killed him. BTW it's also something that unfortunately you're encouraged to do by TDI.
BabelFilm #5: So he learned "that was OK to to dive deep on air within a week, than you get "use to N2" so you can "stretch the limits". Like I did a long time ago and many others. E.g. right now I am diving trimix below 30 m and I have a different mentality that I used to have since I had the classes with GUE. There is NO way I'll do the same mistakes, like Andrey and his buddy did. And believe me I was in a very similar situation when I had my accident in Blue Hole.
You have some very interesting videos. Maybe some of these deaths where one dies and others do not could be attributed to simply different physiologies. I'm not sure if high altitude mountaineering is the same but when I was at high altitude, some people are doing exactly what one is told should not be done, ie smoking and drinking alcohol but seemingly ok? Well for a bit but others who train hard and are very fit can not reach the same altitude. Is it possible to become narced (if on an air dive) at depths that you have dived many times before but this one time you do become narced because of some physiological idiosyncrasy of the day of diving? I've also been diving with heavy smokers but their air consumption was generally better than everyone elses, which was not only frustrating for everyone else but very puzzling. Of course she was very pleased that no one could argue about the disadvantages of smoking (at least not in that group). A guy I used to cave and climb with perished during a cave diving trip- no one truly knows why either to this day.
ernestridge: But I want that episode back, I've been told several times that Russian do drink vodka straight before their dives...! I just couldn't believe it. Dr Adel Tahir also mentioned it in his interview!
hollywoodartchick: That's what the film is all about. This dive site is definitely for tech trained divers but to be a tech diver"is not enough to dive it safe. Deep air and solo dives killed over 100 people there. Andrey was diving deep air and he was separated with his buddies, that was a typical invitation for a disaster
Buceoloco, I agree with you. That's what they should do, but that's what they don't do for some reason. I blame the training agencies (systems) on teaching the divers to dive "deep air" and on allowing the "solo dives" months ago an Israeli (tmx) diver died in BH. Solo dive. These guys (Andrey and his buddy) were supposed to be "buddies", in fact they were not. Because they got separated underwater, and that should have happened.
Basics of post war military diving that was particularly well cascaded in UK through BSAC and only some other european orgs at the time - buddys don't swim at limit of visibility and when in doubt use a line(s)accordingly the reason DIR has come about is because of the the PADI non club vacation diving syndrome, and regrettably with Russians what I call the VLADI syndrome (some divers best in world too many of rest are unacceptably dangerous and cowboy)
BabelFilm #7 In other words that was Andrey's insufficient dive training that caused the fatal accident. So this is TDI that should be blamed. Sorry for the long email, I hope I made sense.
a good ammount of nitrogen narcosis...and you pretty much think youre having the best time of your life while almost dying or you panic so bad you even pull the air out of your mouth to breathe water... common sense such as bubbles always going up sadly do not apply
BabelFilm #4 But this is " in theory", on practice TDI (a leading tech diving agency!) teaches that you "can tolerate N2" (or you can "adapt to N2 narcosis")that's an accomplished bullshit in accordence with the latest scientific research there is no way to "become imune" to the impact of nitrogen. Andrey Nikitin is not Israeli. He was Russian lawyer and a certified advanced tri mix TDI diver.
@meYry12thofMay87 The bottom of the BH is a SLOPE (watch my 3d computer graphics Andrey died outside of the Arch, so the depth could vary from 130- 200 m deep, please email me your postal address and I will get you the DVD Elena
BabelFilm #9 About Russian Divers: I would recommend you to watch my latest documentary: the "Idiosyncrasies of Russian National Diving" on youtube. I'm Russian. And being "a good diver" has nothing to do with diver's with "nationality", E.g.the Russian divers trained by GUE are much better divers than many divers of different "nationalities", disregarding whether they "work in dive industry" or not.
Don't also forget that those guys were trained by TDI, does TDI teach you "the team work skills"? You may say: "that's something obvious and every wise diver should know the importance of the team work ", but I disagree with you, because unfortunately, if that was obvious for "mindful divers" they wouldn't do these mistakes!
My dutch friend doing a PADI open water course in Hurghada - Russian women instructor who fancied him took him down to 60m on his 4th dive I'm sorry but stand at Travco in Sharm in the morning and watch the Russian tourist divers drinking beer and vodka just before they hit the boat and thats what I mean by VLADI divers
oneiropagides: Hi there, I can get you the DVD copy, please email me your postal address and phone number to elnkonstantinou@aolcom Best, Elena Konstantinou
Somebody who calls a technical dive to 60 meters "a walk in the park, easy, not dangerous" is NOT experienced, whatever certificate he or she may have. Russians, by the way, are over-represented in such fatal diving accidents. I know quite a few diving centers that do not accept Russians, for good reasons.
BabelFilm:#1 In fact the agencies DO TEACH TO DIVE DEEP ON AIR. I was trained by TDI, all my TDI instructors were and some still are deep air divers. I was trained to dive down to 60 m for 20 minutes (Extended Range class, (ER) within the course and dove on air on a regular basis with TDI course directors , i.e. did my 111 meters air dive (one hundred and eleven meters) with my instructor. That time an "Instructor" represented a "dive training system" for me.
ernestridge: That's really interesting! Did you watch our new doc. "The Idyinsyncrasies of Russian National diving"? I deleted the "drinking episode" from the film,and I awfully regret that I did... I'm Russian, but I couldn't believe in it, may be because I've never done it and never seen anyone around me who did drink before the dive..
Elena Konstantinou Great documentary... I wonder if the apparent phenomenon of technical diving deaths of Russian males could be attributed somewhat to the country being relatively landlocked with a climate not really suited for the development of recreational swimming/beach culture in the way such a culture exists as a way of life in other countries, like Australia for example. If so it could help to explain the apparent increased overtly risky behavior and inflated perception of ability common among technical diving drowning victims. And can a corollary be drawn between technical and scuba diving deaths involving Russian males, or not?
Buceoloco: I completely agree with you.That's why I made that documentary. They should have cancelled the dive but they didn't cancel it. Everyone who died in the BH (or anywhere esle) should have cancelled their dives t be honest with you. If everyone thinks the same way like you do, there would be no accidents.
So when we say there is the limit for 30 m in regards of air diving we mostly mean "a recreational" (one tank) diving. In tech diving (diving on mixed gases) they use 30 m as an "Equivalent Narcotic Depth" to calculate an optimal gas mix for a deep dive. BabelFilm #3 In other words, diving 100 m deep on mixed gases you're "narced" as if you are at 30 m. deep (i.e. much less!)
um... It says they found some equipment at 170 m... What is exactly the depth of the blue hole? I thought it was 130 m at the most. And how is it possible to simply disappear? like the other guy who turned off his torch (that one was really insane)... The current that flows into the hole is so powerful or what?
And please, i'd like to know if there is a link to the whole documentary? These tiny episodes have already kept me glued to the chair.
true. But as you can imagine it is hard to look at your bubbles when it's completely dark. And when you turn on your lights it will take some time to regain orientation once you've lost it. Especially at bigger depths. And maybe you lost boyancy while you tried to find out which way is up and it's already too late.
What i try to say is that the reasons for diving accidents may seem small from the surface. But they are big enough to kill you when you are down there.
Is there an episode 5? I can't find it anywhere. Or does it go right from 4 to episode 6?
2nd try: Hi Overseasmedia. Yes, you do make a point. Still, I think an experienced buddy team cancles the plan for such a dive when they note that visibility is much poorer than expected. At the very least, they should stuck together closely. Diving on trimix is not a life insurance, especially if you cannot directly ascend to the surface (like in the Blue Hole), no matter what´s the maximum depth
in your logbook (this does not prove "experience" or "professional diver", anyway).
@TheShaggedelic Did you do your first dive in the Dahab's Blue Hole??
GOneScUBA:#2 The Egyptian guide and Andrey's buddy stayed between 50-60 m deep and Andrey went deeper.(76 + m?) You know the rest of the story, bad vis., Andrey was lost and his ody was never found. The most weird thing is that the guys were supposed to leave to Moscow the next day, that was there first dive in the BH (for me sounds exaclty like Yuri L.'s story!)
What is that poem recited at the start, "look into me/who art thou"? Please tell me
BabelFilm#2 so for me that was "a training agency" (TDI) that was promoting deep air dives if they agency didn't support that "idea" they would have desqualified those instructors. The same is related to SDI, SSI, IANTD, etc. Hall Watts (PSI agency) - deep air diving agency. It literally teaches you to dive "deep on air".
Buceoloco: Sorry!!! I have just lost your comment, (I assume that I pressed the "remove" instead of "reply" by mistake!) could you send it to me once again please? You were talking aout trimix dives and thay he should have cancelled the dive..Thanks a lot, and sorry once again
GOneScUBA:#1 Thank you very much once again for your comment! About Andrey's dive I can only say what I learned from his buddy: they had 2 different dive plans: smth like 78 m for 15min for Andrey and his buddy planned 60 m for 20 min(he was less experienced) There was one more guy (Egyptian Instructor or a dive master) who was supposed to guide the guys through the Arch...
babelfilm, lots of them really are sestructive but many of them are pretty nice.
It was very chilling to hear his buddy talk about how well prepared they were for this dive. Over and over, when there is an accident, I hear divers claim that it had to be stupidity, lack of training, etc. I don't think we can write it all off that easily. Diving is risky. Deep diving is riskier. The Blue Hole is too risky for me.
Hi there, Andrey didn't consider the 60 m dive in the BH as "a walk in the park", that was just the way he explained it to his wife, so she wouldn't worry about that dive, he spent a week diving in Sharm down to 120 m on tmx. That was not what he "thought", that was just what he said to his wife. Did I make a sense?
BabelFilm #7 Anyway, the deep air was ONE of the problems that caused Andrey's death. Another BIG problem was his "solo dive". I don't mention it in the film but I KNOW that Andrey and his buddy had different "dive plans" that means they were supposed to "separate" during their dive, that ultimately killed him. BTW it's also something that unfortunately you're encouraged to do by TDI.
BabelFilm #5: So he learned "that was OK to to dive deep on air within a week, than you get "use to N2" so you can "stretch the limits". Like I did a long time ago and many others. E.g. right now I am diving trimix below 30 m and I have a different mentality that I used to have since I had the classes with GUE. There is NO way I'll do the same mistakes, like Andrey and his buddy did. And believe me I was in a very similar situation when I had my accident in Blue Hole.
Hi, Can you tell more about what happens with you on your accident ?
You have some very interesting videos. Maybe some of these deaths where one dies and others do not could be attributed to simply different physiologies. I'm not sure if high altitude mountaineering is the same but when I was at high altitude, some people are doing exactly what one is told should not be done, ie smoking and drinking alcohol but seemingly ok? Well for a bit but others who train hard and are very fit can not reach the same altitude. Is it possible to become narced (if on an air dive) at depths that you have dived many times before but this one time you do become narced because of some physiological idiosyncrasy of the day of diving? I've also been diving with heavy smokers but their air consumption was generally better than everyone elses, which was not only frustrating for everyone else but very puzzling. Of course she was very pleased that no one could argue about the disadvantages of smoking (at least not in that group). A guy I used to cave and climb with perished during a cave diving trip- no one truly knows why either to this day.
ernestridge: But I want that episode back, I've been told several times that Russian do drink vodka straight before their dives...! I just couldn't believe it. Dr Adel Tahir also mentioned it in his interview!
heckaman123 : You misunderstood Russian translation: his buddy s saying "they coud spot Andrey's movements only relying to his bubbles"...
Samurailord: very true! So take care to be sure you are not :on your own" with the "abyss"
hollywoodartchick: That's what the film is all about. This dive site is definitely for tech trained divers but to be a tech diver"is not enough to dive it safe. Deep air and solo dives killed over 100 people there. Andrey was diving deep air and he was separated with his buddies, that was a typical invitation for a disaster
Please I a need copy, I am going to do the blue hole this year, but freediving 50 meters.
Buceoloco, I agree with you. That's what they should do, but that's what they don't do for some reason. I blame the training agencies (systems) on teaching the divers to dive "deep air" and on allowing the "solo dives" months ago an Israeli (tmx) diver died in BH. Solo dive. These guys (Andrey and his buddy) were supposed to be "buddies", in fact they were not. Because they got separated underwater, and that should have happened.
Awesome!
Basics of post war military diving that was particularly well cascaded in UK through BSAC and only some other european orgs at the time - buddys don't swim at limit of visibility and when in doubt use a line(s)accordingly the reason DIR has come about is because of the the PADI non club vacation diving syndrome, and regrettably with Russians what I call the VLADI syndrome (some divers best in world too many of rest are unacceptably dangerous and cowboy)
You can fin the link to the Blue Hole 3d graphic in my videos.
TomTIGER69, I think that was just another deep air dive. It normally happens to people diving deep air.
BabelFilm #7 In other words that was Andrey's insufficient dive training that caused the fatal accident. So this is TDI that should be blamed. Sorry for the long email, I hope I made sense.
iv went done there is looks so cool i
VpVanja: Sure. Whn you are not that "narced".
5 is not bad visiblity! I did my first dive in 1 m visiblity!!
a good ammount of nitrogen narcosis...and you pretty much think youre having the best time of your life while almost dying or you panic so bad you even pull the air out of your mouth to breathe water...
common sense such as bubbles always going up sadly do not apply
BabelFilm #4 But this is " in theory", on practice TDI (a leading tech diving agency!) teaches that you "can tolerate N2" (or you can "adapt to N2 narcosis")that's an accomplished bullshit in accordence with the latest scientific research there is no way to "become imune" to the impact of nitrogen. Andrey Nikitin is not Israeli. He was Russian lawyer and a certified advanced tri mix TDI diver.
TomTIGER69: I wouldn't do it again either!
@meYry12thofMay87 The bottom of the BH is a SLOPE (watch my 3d computer graphics Andrey died outside of the Arch, so the depth could vary from 130- 200 m deep, please email me your postal address and I will get you the DVD
Elena
BabelFilm #9 About Russian Divers: I would recommend you to watch my latest documentary: the "Idiosyncrasies of Russian National Diving" on youtube. I'm Russian. And being "a good diver" has nothing to do with diver's with "nationality", E.g.the Russian divers trained by GUE are much better divers than many divers of different "nationalities", disregarding whether they "work in dive industry" or not.
RIP
Don't also forget that those guys were trained by TDI, does TDI teach you "the team work skills"? You may say: "that's something obvious and every wise diver should know the importance of the team work ", but I disagree with you, because unfortunately, if that was obvious for "mindful divers" they wouldn't do these mistakes!
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Hi there, please contact me at info@hwll.tv I'll get the dvd copy to you. Blue Hole literally has "no bottom", it's a "funnel".
@overseasmedia
goa suzie's wreck :)
@LLS32 Please emnail me your postal address and phone number, I will try to get you the DVD when I am back to USA
My dutch friend doing a PADI open water course in Hurghada - Russian women instructor who fancied him took him down to 60m on his 4th dive
I'm sorry but stand at Travco in Sharm in the morning and watch the Russian tourist divers drinking beer and vodka just before they hit the boat and thats what I mean by VLADI divers
oneiropagides: Hi there, I can get you the DVD copy, please email me your postal address and phone number to elnkonstantinou@aolcom
Best, Elena Konstantinou
I know the Russians drink vodka before their dives and after their dives for sure!!!!
Somebody who calls a technical dive to 60 meters "a walk in the park, easy, not dangerous" is NOT experienced, whatever certificate he or she may have. Russians, by the way, are over-represented in such fatal diving accidents. I know quite a few diving centers that do not accept Russians, for good reasons.