I had played with emulators primarily for retro gaming since 2001... I didn't think input lag was a thing. Then I plugged in my Sega Genesis for the first time in like 15 years. Holy god, was it there. We just acclimate. It's like the sound discrepancies, I can't hear them even with comparisons a lot of the time. My ear isn't exactly trained though, I'm no audiophile.
Same happened to me. I sold my nes and snes in 1996 to get the n64, sold the n64 around 2000. Played with emulators till 2015 when a cousin gave me his NES that have been inside a box for the past 20 years so I could fix it. Fortunately I had a CRT Triniton still. Fixed and pugged the damned thing... a couple of hours later and like 5 people that were just passing by but stopped to play mario bros and duck hunt made me realize how much different the gameplay felt compared to ANYTHING else, emulators, clones, raspberry pi, hdtv screens, etc... It was just SO RIGHT and the games where fun and responsive again. It was not me that got older and slower, it was the tech! Input Lag is so real. Actually I played the games even better than when I was a kid. Outcome: I spent the next following year on getting all those retro consoles back on ebay and now treasure CRTs.
I remember thinking my skills at games got rusty which could be true to a extent but about 7 years ago I was at parents and forgot my laptop charger so played my old Sega, no matter if it was Sonic or Street Fighter suddenly I was better at it. Then a few weeks back I started using real hardware again and same results, I think though as both times I was using crts that helps too but I think input lag is there.
@@keiyakins Agree, but sometimes I think too that It´s that thing that it´s a commodity, a luxury and a privilege to have these days (huge and heavy crt plus old tech that is expensive to get, mod and maintain). So most people just prefer to think that there are better (cheaper, easier to use) options, and maybe there are for some other things (like the super nt or mega sg on an 720p hdtv with minimal lag or so). But in my opinion, for games, what matters the most is the gameplay, how it plays, and for that there´s nothing better overall than the real original hardware on a CRT. But again, that´s the deluxe, expensive and complicated version. We are fortunate to have the fpga and flashcarts with hdtvs today. It is crazy.
I just thought I was getting old and slow, since I know back in the late 80s and early 90s I was a hell of a lot better at the games than when I was trying stuff via emulation. So after like 25 years I finally broke out the old Sega Genesis/CD/32X tower of power last year, booted it up and was surprised it still worked fine - and wow, I didn't totally suck. Input lag is a very real thing, in particular for us who grew up playing them with no lag. For the boring kiddos to tell us input lag isn't a big deal, well that's just your classic millennial d-bag who thinks they know everything because they were always given a trophy no matter how stupid they were.
Sound delays are created because the original 16-bit consoles would write sound data to their buffers during frame draws (such as every other line or blanking interval). Where as emulation processes the frame(s) first, then processes the sound data. To completely eliminate the delay, you would need a very fast processor, or a parallel design (i.e. VHDL).
@@nickwallette6201 The software emulator is probably already running multi-threaded. But it doesn't solve the timing issues. The sound hardware (S-SMP in this example) must also be emulated. So creating a virtual sound buffer will also create a delay, as when data is moved in, it must also be decoded in a less efficient way than what a real sound chip would do. For follow up, I recommend you watch the GameHut video when he describes his method of implementing sound: ruclips.net/video/x3m3JrVImmU/видео.html and if you are a programmer, try and think of how you would emulate that in c/c++.
I believe the reason why pseudo-high res mode is used for water is the same reason Super Mario World uses dither patterns for water, IIRC doing full screen transparency like that uses an entire background layer to itself and prevents you from having other layers. SMW has a transparent water mode in the code that mostly goes unused due to the loss of background when it’s in effect, I believe it was only used for one stage, if at all, as a result.
You know, I would absolutely listen to a podcast. I know you guys put the livestream archives as a podcast, but I would listen to something just like this every week.
if they made a podcast and were able to converse as clearly as this all the time, it would be one of the finest podcasts around. there's some big podcasts where it's actually kind of a mess, usually because there's too many people in the room talking over each other (YKWD, LoS even though I'm a fan of Dave Smith), or it's one guy just talking to himself (MMP even though I'm a fan of Bill Burr). or you have NPR-style sterility, either from actual NPR or people who want to seem like smarty pants. what's really underrated in podcasting is focus, structure, variety, and speaking clearly.
Mind was blown when i first got my Switch and saw there was a SNES app, i think its great to dive into every now and then. It loos and plays amazing imo and has some of the best titles i played growing up, would really like to see a N64 app too! Great video
[Try4ce] I screwed up my first attempt, protector wasn't really reusable. Got another and nailed it so hard I honestly couldn't believe it. It's one of those glass ones and I hope to never need to remove it.
@@infasis I 've used the feature since it came out, and have thoroughly playtested it. For some cores the feature it is not supported, but for the ones that do support it (most popular cores) the feature is extremely smooth and downright amazing. Most people who say it has problems are probably not setting it up correctly. This is the interenet though, so misinformation is spread when it s convenient for people who dislike emulators to try and downplay how powerful the feature is.
@@TheElectricUnderground Is this only for PC or is it available for something cheaper and smaller than you can connect to your tv and maybe use original controllers with usb adapters, like the Raspberry pi?
@@TheElectricUnderground I'll have to try it myself sometime, but it really would be nice if they would make a video analyzing things like this though. Misinformation is rampant online for emulation related things and I'd like to see things really scrutinized.
@@h0laPlaneta Good news my dude. The raspberry pi 4 actually has enough power to run most cores (especially 16 bit ones) with enough power to use run ahead comfortably. If you are interested in shmups in particular, I'd say keep an eye out because I am going to release shmuparch for raspberrry pi 4 this weekend :-D
Except for rewind, that (and much more) is possible on original hardware by using a device called "FXPAK Pro". And even then, if the games were not supposed to be played with Savestates, why using them in the first place? I'd dare to say tat playing games the way they were intended to be played is the point, when reminiscing over the past.
I would guess the KDL3 effect is just a product of how late that game released for the system; '97 along with DKC3. Always interesting to see features like that pop up in games near (or at, in this case) the end of a system's life span when the developers know every tick and can milk it for all it's worth. Also from what I've read aspect ratio (in terms of 4:3 and Pixel Perfect) is a bit of a case by case on the SNES in terms of how they were designed (although probably leaning more towards 4:3 overall). I remember looking up the optimal/preferable aspect ratio to play a Super Metroid x LttP randomizer on bsnes and found people saying that in Super Metroid the morph ball is only a perfect sphere like it should be in Pixel Perfect, but the Triforce in LttP is too skinny and only proper width in 4:3, which is strange if true because those games were obviously both developed by Nintendo, although a few years apart.
They were developed by separate divisions though which was like basically different companies back then. R&D4 made LTTP but R&D1 with some Intelligent Systems people made Super Metroid.
I had no idea that input lag existed until I watched this video. I believe you, though. Maybe I've always adjusted to it "on the fly" for lack of a better phrase? Love your content! I'm having fun and learning new things. Thanks!
@@90sarcadefighter5 stop your whining, I couldnt care less if they added different libraries to the switch online. I'd rather they make a n64 mini instead.
@@nintendo1889x pseudo high resolution can be used in various modes, but mode 7 isn't one of them. Mode 5 and 6 anables the real high resolution. This game uses the normal Mode 1, so it just streches the low resolution image. But you can select just the even or odd pixels to show, creating this KDL3 effect.
Due to a mentioning of your channel in RetroGamer I came across your stuff by accident. And I have to say: the stuff you”re doing is simply awesome! 🤪 I almost watched everything in one session just like binge watching. Keep it that way. I learned so much and love it. 👍
Thank you gentlemen! Excellent video as always and a welcome follow up to the Genesis mini video. I appreciated everything that was brought up and that all topics were detailed/discussed. Can't wait for the next installment.
Very nice. You ask some excellent questions that I'm sure others have to have asked. It would be great to get an official response to these from Nintendo
The emulation is for sure improved. They fixed the background blinking SuperFX glitch in Super Mario World 2 that was present on the SNES Classic. Now when you play W1-7: Touch Fuzzy Get Dizzy and hit Fuzzy, the background stays like it should.
OMG I LOVE these little Mini video's you guys are doing now! Because we get more in depth technical type info more often now! More coverage for more things is NEVER a bad thing when it comes from informed ppl! The more quality info laden content you guys produce the better, even if it is in a more laid back less scripted format. The info is still coming from two technically minded ppl and will still be accurate which is why I love watching you guys as I am a tech nerd and thus love the video's that look into the more minute techy details of things.
The thing I like about the rewind is you can redo jumps or whatever to get better. I like that in Mario you can rewind and redo a jump you messed up, it makes you a better Mario player. I know most people won't use it that way but I really like it. I would love if Mario rom hacks had a rewind haha.
I'm glad you guys did this video. I know the service looks identical but I really wanted to see your input on how good/faithful the emulation actually is
Great episode! I think you two should do this weekly! The my life in gaming talk show, where you discuss gaming stuff that's important to you. Maybe news about mods, or games you've been playing. 20 minutes is the perfect length. It can be like a Dev blog, but for the channel!
Rewind feature is really handy. I do not have time to play those games as I used to. So the fact that I can rewind is a god send. I feel like it ruins the experience in some way, as it was not meant to be played that way, but the fact that it helped me finish Super Metroid in about 6h was really gratifying knowing that I would never have found the time and the patience to go through the whole game if I didn't have the option to fix my mistakes with rewind.
All right, now it's time for you guys to talk about the N64 and GBA emulation on the Nintendo switch. Be thorough, maybe find a way to get soccer to test input lag and all will be cake. I look forward to this and so do many of us retro fans.
The quality of the collections is so much better than these subscriptions. I found little to no input lag on the Castlevania and Contra collections. They cost money but the jump in quality is SOOO worth it.
I don't know what they did but i'm pretty sure the online functionality is build differently in the snes and the nes services. For one the low latency option is not even available, when i saw that i was very dissapointed since that was the only way i could play nes online somewhat decently. But when i tried it... i was very surprised by how smoothly it ran. I was able to lay super mario world and joe and mac with my brother in germany with no noticeable lag at all, not even in tricky platforming sections. I really hope that they upgrade the nes service to this new system.
[Try4ce] I feel like Super Star is a shoe-in for a future release, so it's nice to see Dream Land 3 up front (with its nifty blending feature too). But yeah Super Star is a way way way more fun game.
I love when people use logical fallacies like trying to pass off subjective opinions as objective facts. "There is no input lag" vs "I don't notice any input lag."
I've been really impressed with it. Mostly cos it marks the end of Nintendo putting PAL versions of SNES games out in the UK. Even Super Metroid on Wii U still had the German subtitles on it. It's being able to play that how it is meant to be officially in the UK for the first time. Played some Super Mario Kart online the other day and while there was a little feeling of lag it was so minimal I adjusted to it pretty quickly. Playing that game's battle mode online is just amazing.
Now the SNES games with the CRT filter looks very blurry when there's no retention :0 That flickering made the games looking way sharper but at the same time defective.
I think the audio delay you guys are talking about actually makes the audio hit at a realistically more accurate time even if it's not exactly true to the original. I can see how people would fall into different camps on that though.
My estimates (docked, wired controller, 14.2ms flatscreen) are 5-6 frames in 4:3, 2-3 frames in pixel perfect. In comparison, the Konami collections and Disney Afternoon collections, its 1-2 (I was able to effectively speedrun games in these collections). Take these measurements with a grain of salt, but my reference has always been CRT with original hardware. Once that input delay is on, it's like putting shackles on the game.
I've noticed a few other audio issues with the SNES App. For example, in EarthBound, when the 'You Won!' jingle plays, the notes sometimes seem to shift or distort. It's a strange issue, but it was also present in earlier versions of SNES9x.
Do you guy film in same studio or do you both shoot separately and edit together? Only found this channel the other day and love your videos, keep it up!
[Try4ce] We shoot separately. This video is a "Mini," which is a more casual conversation where we were talking on Discord while shooting with our own cameras. Most of our videos are scripted, though. But yes, we live in different states so usually we shoot separately and share our files for editing.
The blending of hi-res interlaced sprites on SNES has been available in SNES9X for like a decade. I guess Nintendo must've felt compelled to include it seeing as how clone consoles are implementing it.
I actually sold my Super NT to move to original hardware because of the popping I was getting in multiple games. The sound would pop anytime I used Rambi's attack in DKC2. It was driving me nuts.
The High Res blend used in Kirby is also supported by SNES9x at least with the Libretro core. Some other things in Kirby look too blurry with that though and Higan now has a high res mode. If you enable it all the time it creates really bad effects in some games.
[Try4ce] There is no downside to it the way it is implemented in the Super Nt to my knowledge. I believe it specifically only blends the layer with the high res mode and doesn't affect other games at all.
I have noticed you don't have the option of picking a screen resolution that would fill your actual screen I do think that's a slight downside but when it comes to NES online and I notice that there is no option to customise your button setup and that was a pain especially with the SMB series
Awesome video! Like Coury, I am wondering how the SNES controllers from Nintendo will stack up to the Sn30Pro+ from 8Bitdo. I have two and love using them on Switch or PC.
Great video, guys! You both seem a lot more relaxed and comfortable this time! Probably helps that Try actually had some experience with the topic rather than just "interviewing" Coury like the last one kinda was lol
I actually love the NES lineup. it's pretty interesting. Also, for a slightly different lineup, you can log in with a different region and download the titles from that region.
I personally think that it's probably more worth it to just cfw the switch and use RetroArch for running SNES, NES, GBC, GBA and ps1 games. I'm just saying that those Switch servers won't be up forever and as soon as you just rip your physical cartridges to the MicroSD Card and as soon you modify your Switch, you'll have a lot of advantages in comparison to the OFW Switch users. Before anyone starts with the whole piracy BS.. In the long run you'll pay way more than the original release of the games was worth it and if you're an "Die Hard Diablo Fan", you'll be able to even run Diablo 1 port on the Switch and with the community hosted DNS Servers, you'll be enjoying the "local multiplayer" gameplay which isn't even local at all since you're connecting to an remote server, which let's you connect with other players. Same goes for older games. There're a lot of PC ported games like CS 1.6 (Currently only in Russian language), RTC Wolfenstein and somewhat working Half Life 1 port which is currently in Alpha but it works very well. Also, remember that with emulating the retro games, you actually OWN THEM! This means if Nintendo decides to remove some games from the library, you'll not be affected
@@mylifeingaming John Linnenman, your penpal from Germany, mentioned this in his SNES Classic DF Retro review: when you touch a fuzzy, the background disappears. [Source] ruclips.net/video/nOObbaqOaUQ/видео.html
Super metroid audio pop is emulation based and other then that and the border that's really the only issue I had with the emulation Nintendo created. It's pretty solid, no not higan or bsnes levels of accuracy but higan in accuracy mode has noticeable input lag so Nintendo's offering is a solid and balanced solution.
One change I've noticed is in flashing/blinking animations in Breath of Fire. The enemy highlighting in battle has a much slower blinking animation and the sprite of the transparent Gloom enemy / Ross's wife's ghost in Auria also blink/flash less quickly which sorta results in them going invisible every now and then. I'm sure it was altered due to epilepsy concerns. Not sure if these alterations were in the Wii U/New 3DS versions, as well.
The sounds are good IMO, I've never noticed an issue with it till you guys pointed them out. I don't doubt there is input lag, but I haven't experienced it yet with the few games I've played sorry. Also, if you have the SN30 you can hit Start and Select to get the ZL+ZR function.
Great vid fellas. Can you do a follow up on those controllers, the dpads, and input lag? I'd be interested to see docked vs undocked, I assume undocked will be lower but who knows.
Another incorrect audio issue is with Super Mario World when you start the first level and throw the turtle shell at the line of Koopa's, the sound is different vs real hardware.
Grew up with nes and snes in the 90s, I play switch on pixel perfect then I utilize the zoom of my Sharp 50inch and it looks fantastic and only cuts off a little bit of overscan
[Try4ce] Nah. Someone from my old job wanted me to hack his SNES Classic so I tested it on mine first. No real interest in doing more with it. I may even flash it back to its original state.
Being a huge fan of the really classic NES (Black Boxes), I am happy to see 15 of the 30 games there. I'd also be fine with them adding the Zapper light gun games too, maybe with analog stick option / touch screen emulation. I'm guessing we won't see Slalom (being a Rare owned game), or Popeye (licensed by King Features), and possibly not Kung Fu or 10-Yard Fight (Irem games).
I, personally, am probably not going to use these classic libraries too much, since I've already hacked my classic editions with the library I wanted. But I will definitely try out the games I may have overlooked or games I've never heard of before. There's also the online multiplayer, so I could see a friend and myself putting some hours in Kirby's Dream Course. XD
In my honest opinion, there is not one bad game in the SNES switch collection. They did very, very well for an initial release, and it's delightful playing these handheld. Ordered 2 SNES controllers from Nintendo so can't wait to get them too!
Demon's Crest being there was a huge surprise to me. Was super happy. And I've been playing a lot of A Link to the Past. I just want them to add Super Punch Out, which I'm sure they will.
I use pixel perfect aka 8:7 mode for games like Super Metroid, A Link to the Past and Super Mario World because they have clearly been made for that aspect ratio. Fat Mario and Link or egg shaped Morph Ball just looks bad.
The transparency thing was made that way because you need to do alpha composition(en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alpha_compositing) which is kinda a big formula and doing this with the SNES processor isn't fast, so it isn't worthy. Another thing is that on your computer this calculation is done by GPU but the GPU/VPU of SNES can't generate any RGB color that they want which makes possible that when you do an alpha composition on the SNES it's GPU can't render the color because it doesn't know which one it is and to make an VPU that could do that would be a lot expensive. And the last thing that made they do the pattern thing. They weren't expecting that people would want to emulate or mod their console to get the best picture.
The interpolation of varying pixel ratios is _incredibly_ important to me. Nearest neighbor style filtering drives me nuts (NES Classic), and overly blurred filtering (Playstation Classic) gives me a headache as my eyes keep trying to focus on it. (also see awful background filtering in final Fantasy 7, 8, & 9 remasters)
[Try4ce] Almost certainly, in some capacity. Maybe it's not something you notice, which is great! I am not especially sensitive to it myself. But technically it is there.
![I.N "HALLUCINATION" | [Stray Kids : SKZ-PLAYER]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/n5B5q1Hwt_U/mqdefault.jpg)
>mini episode
>23 minutes
God I love you guys, also the pixel perfect skinniness reminds me of playing snes on the Retron5
I had played with emulators primarily for retro gaming since 2001... I didn't think input lag was a thing.
Then I plugged in my Sega Genesis for the first time in like 15 years.
Holy god, was it there. We just acclimate.
It's like the sound discrepancies, I can't hear them even with comparisons a lot of the time.
My ear isn't exactly trained though, I'm no audiophile.
Same happened to me. I sold my nes and snes in 1996 to get the n64, sold the n64 around 2000. Played with emulators till 2015 when a cousin gave me his NES that have been inside a box for the past 20 years so I could fix it. Fortunately I had a CRT Triniton still. Fixed and pugged the damned thing... a couple of hours later and like 5 people that were just passing by but stopped to play mario bros and duck hunt made me realize how much different the gameplay felt compared to ANYTHING else, emulators, clones, raspberry pi, hdtv screens, etc... It was just SO RIGHT and the games where fun and responsive again. It was not me that got older and slower, it was the tech! Input Lag is so real. Actually I played the games even better than when I was a kid. Outcome: I spent the next following year on getting all those retro consoles back on ebay and now treasure CRTs.
They do exist, but they're *way* overblown a lot of the time.
I remember thinking my skills at games got rusty which could be true to a extent but about 7 years ago I was at parents and forgot my laptop charger so played my old Sega, no matter if it was Sonic or Street Fighter suddenly I was better at it. Then a few weeks back I started using real hardware again and same results, I think though as both times I was using crts that helps too but I think input lag is there.
@@keiyakins Agree, but sometimes I think too that It´s that thing that it´s a commodity, a luxury and a privilege to have these days (huge and heavy crt plus old tech that is expensive to get, mod and maintain). So most people just prefer to think that there are better (cheaper, easier to use) options, and maybe there are for some other things (like the super nt or mega sg on an 720p hdtv with minimal lag or so). But in my opinion, for games, what matters the most is the gameplay, how it plays, and for that there´s nothing better overall than the real original hardware on a CRT. But again, that´s the deluxe, expensive and complicated version. We are fortunate to have the fpga and flashcarts with hdtvs today. It is crazy.
I just thought I was getting old and slow, since I know back in the late 80s and early 90s I was a hell of a lot better at the games than when I was trying stuff via emulation. So after like 25 years I finally broke out the old Sega Genesis/CD/32X tower of power last year, booted it up and was surprised it still worked fine - and wow, I didn't totally suck. Input lag is a very real thing, in particular for us who grew up playing them with no lag. For the boring kiddos to tell us input lag isn't a big deal, well that's just your classic millennial d-bag who thinks they know everything because they were always given a trophy no matter how stupid they were.
Sound delays are created because the original 16-bit consoles would write sound data to their buffers during frame draws (such as every other line or blanking interval). Where as emulation processes the frame(s) first, then processes the sound data. To completely eliminate the delay, you would need a very fast processor, or a parallel design (i.e. VHDL).
You know your stuff mate.
There's a sound delay?
I'm not sure I see why this couldn't be done in a second thread in multicore systems...
@@nickwallette6201 The software emulator is probably already running multi-threaded. But it doesn't solve the timing issues. The sound hardware (S-SMP in this example) must also be emulated. So creating a virtual sound buffer will also create a delay, as when data is moved in, it must also be decoded in a less efficient way than what a real sound chip would do. For follow up, I recommend you watch the GameHut video when he describes his method of implementing sound: ruclips.net/video/x3m3JrVImmU/видео.html and if you are a programmer, try and think of how you would emulate that in c/c++.
@@blackhatfreak Only with Bluetooth honestly.
I like to close my eyes and enjoy the silky smooth delivery of Tom Hanks.
What?
@@eymed2023 he sounds like tom hanks
I believe the reason why pseudo-high res mode is used for water is the same reason Super Mario World uses dither patterns for water, IIRC doing full screen transparency like that uses an entire background layer to itself and prevents you from having other layers. SMW has a transparent water mode in the code that mostly goes unused due to the loss of background when it’s in effect, I believe it was only used for one stage, if at all, as a result.
You know, I would absolutely listen to a podcast. I know you guys put the livestream archives as a podcast, but I would listen to something just like this every week.
NGL I might dig a podcast from these guys
Bring them to the Spawncast
if they made a podcast and were able to converse as clearly as this all the time, it would be one of the finest podcasts around. there's some big podcasts where it's actually kind of a mess, usually because there's too many people in the room talking over each other (YKWD, LoS even though I'm a fan of Dave Smith), or it's one guy just talking to himself (MMP even though I'm a fan of Bill Burr). or you have NPR-style sterility, either from actual NPR or people who want to seem like smarty pants.
what's really underrated in podcasting is focus, structure, variety, and speaking clearly.
@@craigluft2373 I recommend checking out the video game podcasts, Cane and Rinse, as well as Retronauts.
Subscribe to Patreon, they do audio shows.
Mind was blown when i first got my Switch and saw there was a SNES app, i think its great to dive into every now and then. It loos and plays amazing imo and has some of the best titles i played growing up, would really like to see a N64 app too! Great video
7:34 look at how perfect that screen protector is on, I wish I could get mine that perfect
[Try4ce] I screwed up my first attempt, protector wasn't really reusable. Got another and nailed it so hard I honestly couldn't believe it. It's one of those glass ones and I hope to never need to remove it.
RetroArch run ahead mode is amazing, you can get console speed input lag
It sounds like it introduces all types of new problems though. Would be nice to have them analyze it for an episode.
@@infasis I 've used the feature since it came out, and have thoroughly playtested it. For some cores the feature it is not supported, but for the ones that do support it (most popular cores) the feature is extremely smooth and downright amazing. Most people who say it has problems are probably not setting it up correctly. This is the interenet though, so misinformation is spread when it s convenient for people who dislike emulators to try and downplay how powerful the feature is.
@@TheElectricUnderground Is this only for PC or is it available for something cheaper and smaller than you can connect to your tv and maybe use original controllers with usb adapters, like the Raspberry pi?
@@TheElectricUnderground I'll have to try it myself sometime, but it really would be nice if they would make a video analyzing things like this though. Misinformation is rampant online for emulation related things and I'd like to see things really scrutinized.
@@h0laPlaneta Good news my dude. The raspberry pi 4 actually has enough power to run most cores (especially 16 bit ones) with enough power to use run ahead comfortably. If you are interested in shmups in particular, I'd say keep an eye out because I am going to release shmuparch for raspberrry pi 4 this weekend :-D
I played some of the SNES games on the Switch this past weekend and loved every second of it. Save states help and the rewind feature is great too.
Except for rewind, that (and much more) is possible on original hardware by using a device called "FXPAK Pro".
And even then, if the games were not supposed to be played with Savestates, why using them in the first place?
I'd dare to say tat playing games the way they were intended to be played is the point, when reminiscing over the past.
I can confirm that the DPad is better on the SN30 Pro+. I have the GB style one and it is wonderful. :)
I honestly have no clue what you guys are talking about they all feel the same to me.
I would guess the KDL3 effect is just a product of how late that game released for the system; '97 along with DKC3. Always interesting to see features like that pop up in games near (or at, in this case) the end of a system's life span when the developers know every tick and can milk it for all it's worth.
Also from what I've read aspect ratio (in terms of 4:3 and Pixel Perfect) is a bit of a case by case on the SNES in terms of how they were designed (although probably leaning more towards 4:3 overall). I remember looking up the optimal/preferable aspect ratio to play a Super Metroid x LttP randomizer on bsnes and found people saying that in Super Metroid the morph ball is only a perfect sphere like it should be in Pixel Perfect, but the Triforce in LttP is too skinny and only proper width in 4:3, which is strange if true because those games were obviously both developed by Nintendo, although a few years apart.
They were developed by separate divisions though which was like basically different companies back then. R&D4 made LTTP but R&D1 with some Intelligent Systems people made Super Metroid.
for a second i looked at KDL3 and my brain told me: Konkey Dong Land 3
I had no idea that input lag existed until I watched this video. I believe you, though. Maybe I've always adjusted to it "on the fly" for lack of a better phrase?
Love your content! I'm having fun and learning new things. Thanks!
16:20 THANK YOU! I thought I was crazy! It caught me off guard as I did not expect Nintendo to miss something like that.
I just hope Nintendo consistently upload more games. Good games.
Then N64 quicker than SNES has taken!! - Useless!
Earthbound is what i really want, megaman x is also a priority
@@90sarcadefighter5 stop your whining, I couldnt care less if they added different libraries to the switch online. I'd rather they make a n64 mini instead.
If they bring Prince of Persia for SNES, I will shut up and play it
@@HylianMaster-ls2ps
Yeah, MMX1-X3 would be nice. Either that or Capcom should fix the input lag.
I love it when they put comparison of the sound delay and nobody can notice a single thing x)
First thing I checked when i downloaded the app wasthe transparency effect in Kirby 3.
Was shocked to see it done like the NT.
Pseudo hi-res mode 7 is tricky to emulate, and uses unusual resolutions like 512 x 244, 512 x 256 or something like that
@@nintendo1889x pseudo high resolution can be used in various modes, but mode 7 isn't one of them.
Mode 5 and 6 anables the real high resolution.
This game uses the normal Mode 1, so it just streches the low resolution image. But you can select just the even or odd pixels to show, creating this KDL3 effect.
@@MaxwelThuThu It's still a weird effect
Due to a mentioning of your channel in RetroGamer I came across your stuff by accident. And I have to say: the stuff you”re doing is simply awesome! 🤪 I almost watched everything in one session just like binge watching. Keep it that way. I learned so much and love it. 👍
Thank you gentlemen! Excellent video as always and a welcome follow up to the Genesis mini video. I appreciated everything that was brought up and that all topics were detailed/discussed. Can't wait for the next installment.
I loved this non-scripted view on this. I hope you guys do more videos like this. Also, the longer episodes are fantastic too. Keep it up!!
Thank you for another great mini episode! I love the chill presentation.
Finally someone analyzing this! Thanks!! :D
I personally prefer pixel perfect mode. ^^
First mini was good, this one was notably better! Thanks for your videos
Very nice. You ask some excellent questions that I'm sure others have to have asked. It would be great to get an official response to these from Nintendo
The emulation is for sure improved. They fixed the background blinking SuperFX glitch in Super Mario World 2 that was present on the SNES Classic. Now when you play W1-7: Touch Fuzzy Get Dizzy and hit Fuzzy, the background stays like it should.
OMG I LOVE these little Mini video's you guys are doing now! Because we get more in depth technical type info more often now! More coverage for more things is NEVER a bad thing when it comes from informed ppl! The more quality info laden content you guys produce the better, even if it is in a more laid back less scripted format. The info is still coming from two technically minded ppl and will still be accurate which is why I love watching you guys as I am a tech nerd and thus love the video's that look into the more minute techy details of things.
I love how y’all bounce off of each other’s ideas! :)
Great to hear. Thank u guys for ur time and effort
The thing I like about the rewind is you can redo jumps or whatever to get better. I like that in Mario you can rewind and redo a jump you messed up, it makes you a better Mario player. I know most people won't use it that way but I really like it. I would love if Mario rom hacks had a rewind haha.
I'm glad you guys did this video. I know the service looks identical but I really wanted to see your input on how good/faithful the emulation actually is
Did you ever try connecting a CRT to play these games on the switch; would be a pretty useful video
Love the content guys!
Great episode! I think you two should do this weekly! The my life in gaming talk show, where you discuss gaming stuff that's important to you. Maybe news about mods, or games you've been playing. 20 minutes is the perfect length. It can be like a Dev blog, but for the channel!
It's great to see this service works fairly well. I was surprised the most at how well the online component functions.
I love these mini episodes!! Thanks guys! :) Also, Try4ce definitely needs a shave!
He can keep the beard as long as he saves some of the ladies for the rest of us!
YO! This mini episode feels a lot better than the first one you did. I don't know what you did different (if anything) but keep it up!
Rewind feature is really handy. I do not have time to play those games as I used to. So the fact that I can rewind is a god send. I feel like it ruins the experience in some way, as it was not meant to be played that way, but the fact that it helped me finish Super Metroid in about 6h was really gratifying knowing that I would never have found the time and the patience to go through the whole game if I didn't have the option to fix my mistakes with rewind.
All right, now it's time for you guys to talk about the N64 and GBA emulation on the Nintendo switch. Be thorough, maybe find a way to get soccer to test input lag and all will be cake. I look forward to this and so do many of us retro fans.
The quality of the collections is so much better than these subscriptions. I found little to no input lag on the Castlevania and Contra collections. They cost money but the jump in quality is SOOO worth it.
I don't know what they did but i'm pretty sure the online functionality is build differently in the snes and the nes services. For one the low latency option is not even available, when i saw that i was very dissapointed since that was the only way i could play nes online somewhat decently. But when i tried it... i was very surprised by how smoothly it ran. I was able to lay super mario world and joe and mac with my brother in germany with no noticeable lag at all, not even in tricky platforming sections. I really hope that they upgrade the nes service to this new system.
2:25 Ahh, Light Plane. Such an awesome track.
"Da dada deee-yah"
@@alfiehicks1 The Smash Ultimate Remix is amazing as well
Shorter episodes are fine as long as you stay the way you are... meaning you pay Super™️ attention to detail. :D
The biggest omission for me is Kirby Super Star. Like how are you gonna have Kirby’s Dreamland 3 but not Super Star?
[Try4ce] I feel like Super Star is a shoe-in for a future release, so it's nice to see Dream Land 3 up front (with its nifty blending feature too). But yeah Super Star is a way way way more fun game.
When ds games finaly come I'm sure it will be here
Same. I want to play Kirby Super Star online so bad!!
It's there
Heck yeah! I've been waiting for this!
This video dropping. Well. I dont mind saying I was VERY happy. Another excellent episode.
I love when people use logical fallacies like trying to pass off subjective opinions as objective facts. "There is no input lag" vs "I don't notice any input lag."
So, everybody, then?
I know a lot of people that don't try to pass off opinion as fact.
@@TheGameBench That's really impressive. I kinda envy you
I've been really impressed with it. Mostly cos it marks the end of Nintendo putting PAL versions of SNES games out in the UK. Even Super Metroid on Wii U still had the German subtitles on it. It's being able to play that how it is meant to be officially in the UK for the first time.
Played some Super Mario Kart online the other day and while there was a little feeling of lag it was so minimal I adjusted to it pretty quickly. Playing that game's battle mode online is just amazing.
Now the SNES games with the CRT filter looks very blurry when there's no retention :0
That flickering made the games looking way sharper but at the same time defective.
I think the audio delay you guys are talking about actually makes the audio hit at a realistically more accurate time even if it's not exactly true to the original. I can see how people would fall into different camps on that though.
Shout out to the sub pop shirt! I love early nirvana and soundgarden
My estimates (docked, wired controller, 14.2ms flatscreen) are 5-6 frames in 4:3, 2-3 frames in pixel perfect. In comparison, the Konami collections and Disney Afternoon collections, its 1-2 (I was able to effectively speedrun games in these collections). Take these measurements with a grain of salt, but my reference has always been CRT with original hardware. Once that input delay is on, it's like putting shackles on the game.
Try the netplay in supported RetroArch cores. It's pretty close to perfect and blows the Switch NES/SNES online out of the water.
How is netplay on Switch? My framerate always get a mess while playing on this
Stop being a welfare slob and stealing stuff.
You guys are really the best, thanks for all you do.
I've noticed a few other audio issues with the SNES App. For example, in EarthBound, when the 'You Won!' jingle plays, the notes sometimes seem to shift or distort. It's a strange issue, but it was also present in earlier versions of SNES9x.
Do you guy film in same studio or do you both shoot separately and edit together? Only found this channel the other day and love your videos, keep it up!
[Try4ce] We shoot separately. This video is a "Mini," which is a more casual conversation where we were talking on Discord while shooting with our own cameras. Most of our videos are scripted, though. But yes, we live in different states so usually we shoot separately and share our files for editing.
The blending of hi-res interlaced sprites on SNES has been available in SNES9X for like a decade. I guess Nintendo must've felt compelled to include it seeing as how clone consoles are implementing it.
I actually sold my Super NT to move to original hardware because of the popping I was getting in multiple games. The sound would pop anytime I used Rambi's attack in DKC2. It was driving me nuts.
One thing I noticed once I started playing SNES games on my Switch is that the volume of SNES games appears to be softer than other games.
I have to turn up my tv to 23-25 ish where as normal games and everything else is around 10 to 12 ish
@@bland9876 That's quite significant. I hardly play my Switch on the TV, but I found that I had the volume on my Switch set to full at one point.
I was waiting on this! Thanks guys n
The High Res blend used in Kirby is also supported by SNES9x at least with the Libretro core. Some other things in Kirby look too blurry with that though and Higan now has a high res mode. If you enable it all the time it creates really bad effects in some games.
[Try4ce] There is no downside to it the way it is implemented in the Super Nt to my knowledge. I believe it specifically only blends the layer with the high res mode and doesn't affect other games at all.
I love the rewind feature it's necessary For some of these extremely hard games. I just would not play them ever again With out it
Can you make a light gun episode going over all the light guns up tot he guncon 3? Your Time Crisis was amazing
I have noticed you don't have the option of picking a screen resolution that would fill your actual screen I do think that's a slight downside but when it comes to NES online and I notice that there is no option to customise your button setup and that was a pain especially with the SMB series
[Try4ce] Some SNES games use less of the screen, some use more. They just picked a good scale that would be safe for all games.
@@mylifeingaming Its 09:51 in this video but thanks all the same
Awesome video!
Like Coury, I am wondering how the SNES controllers from Nintendo will stack up to the Sn30Pro+ from 8Bitdo. I have two and love using them on Switch or PC.
I would compare it to the 8bitdo modkit
Great video, guys! You both seem a lot more relaxed and comfortable this time! Probably helps that Try actually had some experience with the topic rather than just "interviewing" Coury like the last one kinda was lol
[Try4ce] Thanks again for the feedback!
I actually love the NES lineup. it's pretty interesting. Also, for a slightly different lineup, you can log in with a different region and download the titles from that region.
I personally think that it's probably more worth it to just cfw the switch and use RetroArch for running SNES, NES, GBC, GBA and ps1 games.
I'm just saying that those Switch servers won't be up forever and as soon as you just rip your physical cartridges to the MicroSD Card and as soon you modify your Switch, you'll have a lot of advantages in comparison to the OFW Switch users.
Before anyone starts with the whole piracy BS..
In the long run you'll pay way more than the original release of the games was worth it and if you're an "Die Hard Diablo Fan", you'll be able to even run Diablo 1 port on the Switch and with the community hosted DNS Servers, you'll be enjoying the "local multiplayer" gameplay which isn't even local at all since you're connecting to an remote server, which let's you connect with other players.
Same goes for older games. There're a lot of PC ported games like CS 1.6 (Currently only in Russian language), RTC Wolfenstein and somewhat working Half Life 1 port which is currently in Alpha but it works very well.
Also, remember that with emulating the retro games, you actually OWN THEM! This means if Nintendo decides to remove some games from the library, you'll not be affected
No confirmation that the Yoshi's Island graphic glitch from SNES Classic is fixed for the SNES on Switch app?
GameXplain had a video in it, no glitches on the snes online collection.
[Try4ce] Which glitch was it? I've played very little Yoshi's Island on the Classic.
@@mylifeingaming if you touched a fuzzy the background would flash or something like that
@@mylifeingaming John Linnenman, your penpal from Germany, mentioned this in his SNES Classic DF Retro review: when you touch a fuzzy, the background disappears. [Source]
ruclips.net/video/nOObbaqOaUQ/видео.html
It's gone
MLiG Mini episode. Still 22 minutes long......
I love this channel.
We didn't get Tetris on NES online, I swear to god if we don't get *Tetris & Dr Mario* on snes
Just play tetris 99
@@bland9876 That's not real tetris unless you buy the dlc
@@XenithLive it is real tetris the tetris company gave nintendo the right to have this game made.
@@bland9876 *facepalm*
@@bland9876 He means single player bud
i would like to have "Joycons" where the D-Pad is at the same High as the Buttons on the right Site.
Plus it coulnt drift
Super metroid audio pop is emulation based and other then that and the border that's really the only issue I had with the emulation Nintendo created. It's pretty solid, no not higan or bsnes levels of accuracy but higan in accuracy mode has noticeable input lag so Nintendo's offering is a solid and balanced solution.
One change I've noticed is in flashing/blinking animations in Breath of Fire. The enemy highlighting in battle has a much slower blinking animation and the sprite of the transparent Gloom enemy / Ross's wife's ghost in Auria also blink/flash less quickly which sorta results in them going invisible every now and then. I'm sure it was altered due to epilepsy concerns. Not sure if these alterations were in the Wii U/New 3DS versions, as well.
7 months later and they only added 2 games. I would like to see DKC2
@06:03 Is this menu for NES games only or is there a way to create save states for SNES titles too?
[Try4ce] You can do it with the NES games too.
Thank you Try4ce :)
The sounds are good IMO, I've never noticed an issue with it till you guys pointed them out. I don't doubt there is input lag, but I haven't experienced it yet with the few games I've played sorry. Also, if you have the SN30 you can hit Start and Select to get the ZL+ZR function.
Great vid fellas. Can you do a follow up on those controllers, the dpads, and input lag?
I'd be interested to see docked vs undocked, I assume undocked will be lower but who knows.
Another incorrect audio issue is with Super Mario World when you start the first level and throw the turtle shell at the line of Koopa's, the sound is different vs real hardware.
Grew up with nes and snes in the 90s, I play switch on pixel perfect then I utilize the zoom of my Sharp 50inch and it looks fantastic and only cuts off a little bit of overscan
As for lag, my imperfect testing methods suggest about 2 frames overall. Not terrible, but enough to make me still prefer original hardware on a CRT.
Did that sn30+ pro have an ASAP Connect adapter plugged into it? I love those things
6:15 I see that back button in the thumbnails for the snes classic. Video on the homebrew and hacking scene for the snes classic in the works?
[Try4ce] Nah. Someone from my old job wanted me to hack his SNES Classic so I tested it on mine first. No real interest in doing more with it. I may even flash it back to its original state.
Analogue is also a Seattle area company, so it's entirely possible Christopher Taber helped Nintendo of North America with the SNES emulation.
@@rokej2 He said it's possible, why you gotta resort to petty insults?
@@rokej2 I'm sure you would talk to him like that in person. 😊
I'm loving these mini "opinion share" episodes. Much love to the best duo on RUclips.
And let that beard grow out, Try!
I won't use a rewind feature myself, but I do enjoy using fast forward. Especially when playing a grind-heavy RPG.
Being a huge fan of the really classic NES (Black Boxes), I am happy to see 15 of the 30 games there. I'd also be fine with them adding the Zapper light gun games too, maybe with analog stick option / touch screen emulation. I'm guessing we won't see Slalom (being a Rare owned game), or Popeye (licensed by King Features), and possibly not Kung Fu or 10-Yard Fight (Irem games).
The Genesis Mini has no interpolation? Glad I have the Mega SG then
Not everyone can afford to shell out $200 smart ass.
Marc's mannerism and voice is greatly more pleasant in this video,, please continue that.
I, personally, am probably not going to use these classic libraries too much, since I've already hacked my classic editions with the library I wanted. But I will definitely try out the games I may have overlooked or games I've never heard of before. There's also the online multiplayer, so I could see a friend and myself putting some hours in Kirby's Dream Course. XD
I enjoy this off the cuff style video
In my honest opinion, there is not one bad game in the SNES switch collection. They did very, very well for an initial release, and it's delightful playing these handheld. Ordered 2 SNES controllers from Nintendo so can't wait to get them too!
Very useful vid. Thanks, what is ‘look ahead’ mode?
Demon's Crest being there was a huge surprise to me. Was super happy. And I've been playing a lot of A Link to the Past. I just want them to add Super Punch Out, which I'm sure they will.
I use pixel perfect aka 8:7 mode for games like Super Metroid, A Link to the Past and Super Mario World because they have clearly been made for that aspect ratio. Fat Mario and Link or egg shaped Morph Ball just looks bad.
On a big screen TV pixel perfect is awesome except for Donkey Kong Country that needs scanlines
The transparency thing was made that way because you need to do alpha composition(en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alpha_compositing) which is kinda a big formula and doing this with the SNES processor isn't fast, so it isn't worthy.
Another thing is that on your computer this calculation is done by GPU but the GPU/VPU of SNES can't generate any RGB color that they want which makes possible that when you do an alpha composition on the SNES it's GPU can't render the color because it doesn't know which one it is and to make an VPU that could do that would be a lot expensive.
And the last thing that made they do the pattern thing. They weren't expecting that people would want to emulate or mod their console to get the best picture.
21:00 What is that silver bit on top of the SN30 Pro+?
[Try4ce] Those are magnetic dongles we've put in for attaching to magnetic charging cables. Just makes them easy to charge.
It's a magnetic charger. They talked about those in their charging and docks episode.
4:36 well there are also no mother/earthbound games for the subscribtion service so
:)
Keep up the good work guys.
The interpolation of varying pixel ratios is _incredibly_ important to me. Nearest neighbor style filtering drives me nuts (NES Classic), and overly blurred filtering (Playstation Classic) gives me a headache as my eyes keep trying to focus on it. (also see awful background filtering in final Fantasy 7, 8, & 9 remasters)
So are you telling me that games like Sonic Mega Collection Plus and Street Fighter Alpha Anthology also have lag?
[Try4ce] Almost certainly, in some capacity. Maybe it's not something you notice, which is great! I am not especially sensitive to it myself. But technically it is there.
Interesting.