Progress is upwards to elevate the human condition, not merely forwards, and ethics, properly defined, are exactly those values which achieve that in accordance with natural truth. Butchering your twin to defeat the wall isn't progress (and your brain still ages). Stop pretending lofty values. This is just sociopathic self interest trying to circumvent social retaliation.
@@NoiZze_ Neither are clones, mutations always occur. But still, we're talking about a few differences in 6 billion genomic base pairs. They're the closest to genetically identical you can get.
The terrifying part is... that Lumi is actually incredibly smart and will absolutely destroy you if you let your guard down. She is in fact my favorite tard... but by no means is she actually one.
Why is this so attractive? Christmas cakes have felt less attractive after I decided I wanted many kids, despite knowing personality matters more to me. But I was not expecting a rant like this of all things to make me think, "A cake like this would be fine."
I think Lumi is mistaking people engaging the experiment for disapproval. Sure maybe some of them are but half the point of a thought experiment is to bring up counterpoints such as ethics and thinking of some way of navigating them.
NGL this actually makes me think. I wonder about the ethics of genetically modifying an embryo to have no higher brain functions then using it for whatever. On one hand it is technically human, on the other it has no more intelligence than a piece of toast.
Applies to someone in a vegetative state too right? On the other hand, if we should give rights based on what they were, surely we should consider what they will be as well?
Well that answer get answered in the OMS reunion about ethics and genetics, thats why you would get arrested if any healt organization know that you modify genetically a human and animal.
The real thing is it's all incredibly impractical on top of being an ethics nightmare. What they are actually working on with stem cells is forcing those to become the parts they want, without having to go through the process of making a full human. I'm not aware of how far they are into these experiments but I know they were already able to make a lot of different simple tissues 10 years ago, not at scale at all, but in lab as experiments.
I blame fiction for rotting people's brains on this. Sci-fi has given people a twisted idea of what a "clone" is. Biologicially speaking, a clone is an identical twin. That's it. There's no difference. Anything you claim would be fine to do to a clone, would also apply to one of a pair of identical twins.
Uh, you do realize that even sci-fi clones are basically twins as well. Even perfect clones with the same memories are their own distinct person, so all of the ethical problems discussed would be the exact same sci-fi clone or realistic clone.
To answer the "replacement parts" approach. On-going trials are being conducted for various organs but external body parts have been successfully "grown" but its still a cost-effectivity issue. For the "no-womb" or "artificial womb" clones, that was allegedly attempted but was unsuccessful. Cloning will still require a womb/surrogate mother as a proper host and "allegedly" gene-pollution from the surrogates was an issue. For the "imparting genetic defects," gene-splicing has been in-practice as part of gene-therapy methods but as a "human-modding" approach to eventual clone production, this has allegedly been a practice that is strictly discouraged by medical ethics.
She's just saying what's on other people's minds. They castigate her while sighing a breath of relief that its not just them who thinks like that, while hiding behind the veneer of ethical civility.
Growing a whole clone just for a few cells seems so inefficient. The obvious trick is to grow a clone for the whole body, then just plop your brain in there. But, that still leaves a major barrier between you and immortality: your brain. Until we find a way to prevent all brain degradation, we’ll never become immortal. If one were to become immortal in that way, how risk averse might you become? Currently a car accident might shave 50 years off your life. But if you were biologically immortal, such an accident might prevent you from living for millennia or longer
It really is not, think about transferring data between phone, even if the phone have the same specs, and the same data, both are still different phones
Atheist Moralist is an oxymoron with an emphasis on the moron. “I believe in a purely materialistic universe where the only visible law concerning biological life is survival of the fittest. But ephemeral concepts like Justice, Mercy, Love, Goodness, etc definitely exist and we should follow (my interpretation of) these things. Trust me.” It’s the most moronic position one could hold. Either we are made in the image of God and have intrinsic value by proxy or we’re meat puppets existing in a universe with no grand designs. You can’t have it both ways.
Objective progress produces a higher prevalence of virtue, and perceives strong family ties as a status symbol. Objective, actual progress introduces higer rates of happiness, and contentment. Our current society, or modernity, if you prefer, is cultural *regression* with a bedrock of anti-human corporatism. It turns out success is damaging to humanity.
Many people spend their whole life searching for meaning, never knowing why they’re alive. What cruelty. Might it be a kindness to give your clone such a clear answer? Should automation improve further, you might even be able to afford to give them a life far better than what most people living today get to have. You’d ofc ensure they’re free range so they can get plenty of exercise, with the best food and medicine. They get to live the happiest ages in an ideal environment. How could a utilitarian object to the ethics of that?
Today's word is Eugenics: the study of how to arrange reproduction within a human population to increase the occurrence of heritable characteristics regarded as desirable.
I did a bit of thinking about Lumi's premise: A clone is functionally the same as a child. Only it is genetically identical to someone else; the clone template. There is nothing inherently special about birth over cloning that would grant special value to a natural child. The value of birth lay in the creation of a child, not the act of birth itself. Also, this clone baby is only as valuable as its creator decides (subjective theory of value) yet still has free will. Free will is a uniquely human part of the brain and a genetically identical clone would have free will just the same as its template since it has a similar brain. Because the clone has free will, it may choose for itself what should happen to it. It has property rights over its own body, excepting, of course, its parents'/creator's nurture. The harvesting, then, of this hypothetical clone child is a crime against natural law and voids the harvester's right over their own life (execution). If the clone is modified to have a distinctly inhuman brain, without free will, then it cannot be said that it owns itself; much like plants and animals do not own themselves. The creator would then own that clone wholly and fully without contention and be free do with the clone to their heart's content. TL;DR Clones should have rights since they are human. Clones shouldn't have rights if they have no human brain and would then be able to be ethically harvested (in Minecraft, of course). Lemon Woman is correct (for once).
Brain activity is not a precondition for having human rights. Coma, cerebral palsy, alzheimers, rabies, hydrocephalus, ALS, etc. There's a myriad of conditions that affect the human brain, none of them makes it ethical or legal to be experimented with, which is why human cloning is banned wholesale and illegal worldwide; even China sent a scientist to prison for it.
Widening the scope of the thought exercise, the problem then becomes the ethical cost opportunity of deliberately creating them like that. In order to get passed that ethical issue, we would likely need the technology to grow isolated parts of human clones, such as growing a new heart by itself. Unfortunately, that technology is unlikely to be developed without the experience of cloning whole bodies to study the processes.
@@Deadgye Nice thought, would a clone without its mental faculties be worth the cost to create? Clones are already possible with current technology (Dolly the Sheep), though it hasn't been tried on humans to my knowledge. Removing the potential of free will is one matter, creating human clones would be costly. Time and resources are needed to nurture the clone into an adult for harvest. The return on investment for their organs (sold through the black market perhaps?) would be nice, but medical biotechnology is seeing great advancement towards creating organs without these problems. The use of a 'stupid' clone would be limited. A clone with free will would be, comparatively, extremely profitable. The incentives to create one would be similar to the incentives to having a child. Maybe clones are just more trouble than they're worth? If you want organs, make an organ by itself or get an organ donor. If you want a child, make a child conventionally. The only thing I can see to make up for the cost of clones is use as experimental lab rats replacing volunteers. Of course, that experimentation would be inexhaustive and useless without including the variable of human will. That would exclude the use of 'stupid' clones and require the participants' consent to do without breaking natural law.
ETHICS IS THE ENEMY OF PROGRESS
Thank you, blonde haired blue eyed woman.
Lumi, play Bioshock, I think you'll like it lol.
Pinko nonsense
Progress is upwards to elevate the human condition, not merely forwards, and ethics, properly defined, are exactly those values which achieve that in accordance with natural truth. Butchering your twin to defeat the wall isn't progress (and your brain still ages). Stop pretending lofty values. This is just sociopathic self interest trying to circumvent social retaliation.
Loomi, life extension is going to be eas
All this is discussed in her book "My Struggle" by Kaneko Lumi
Lumengele
Actually i really want a Parody song of this "Lemon Woman" great idea right?
@@BeldansFireonly if you’re parodying American woman
@@asdasd-ty9seno, pretty woman
I loved the chapter on selective breeding in penguin populations
"I do not let ethics get in the way of curiosity"
Kaneko Loomie at the Nuremberg Trials, restored.
we reached a point that pippa is the most morally ethical of phase connect
Pippa can be a little unhinged at times, but actually has based values.
Walmart customers are kind of like clones.
@@Atownforevilones The Yankee morality and Southron morality of a century ago somehow reincarnated in two chuubas.
"Ethics don't matter"
.... yeah, I can see why she's so into 40k
Lumi "Clones are only 3/5ths of a person" Kaneko
"I'm not a scientist"
Thank god.
She’s an engineer
@@norad_clips Eugenist?
@@ArthurD that too, probably
@@norad_clips Wait for real?
New Yorker doesn't eat, morally questionable, it tracks.
You're not you when you're hungry. Lumi eat a snickers.
She's a New Yorker it's second nature to her.
>(((russian)))
>(((new yorker)))
Lumi , Why did you commit the war crimes and Crimes against humanity ???
" I was curious "
Why else?
I get the feeling she would love rimworld!
Unit 731 did nothing wrong. -Lumi probably
@@MASJYT Also McArthur apparently
Lumi's clones wouldn't have souls because they'd have nothing to copy from.
in another time and alternate history: lumi the soviet geneticist
Or japanese
Alright Mengela Lumi, calm down
I think there was a movie called The Island or something where rich people grew clones to harvest later when they needed it.
Altered Carbon the ultra rich grew clones and tranfered consciousness into it once they got old enough
The Clonus Horror
House of the scorpions plays with the concept as well.
@@friedrichwilhelmvonsteuben7952 so that's where that rimworld mod got it's name!
Good movie
Lumi has the same mindset as an insane scientist
Not mad, INSANE
Lumi looks like she's about to start conducting experiments in space, beyond any & all oversight 🚀
Now I want Lumi to play through Prey
"Hello, witchhunters? Yes there she is, right there."
Don’t let this woman cook
Or get pregnant for that matter.
I've laughed in the face of some pretty horrific stuff... but if Lumi isn't doing a bit, she scares me.
Mad Scientist Lumi Arc?
1812 Overture by Tchaikovsky fits a little too well lol
1:09 Got to this part and thought she was going to reinvent Brave New World
Orgy-porgy orgy-porgy!!!
Lumi is The Ilusive Man, confirmed.
Cloned baby orchards are close if not already a reality.
Twins are devalued souls … -Lumi 2024
Fuwamoco in shambles
"Les Enfants Terribles"
Twins are not exact copies...
@@NoiZze_ Neither are clones, mutations always occur. But still, we're talking about a few differences in 6 billion genomic base pairs. They're the closest to genetically identical you can get.
Remember - never trust lemon woman.
Who put Lumi on a Logan's Run arc?!?
She went full flying head of Zardoz with this line of thought... smh.
This is my preferred way to listen to Tchaikovsky's 1812 Overture
Damn Lumi isn't a based scientist, but a Hojo/Bonedrewd type.
Lumi, the greatest eugenecist of the 21st century
I think we have quite a few works of fiction, where the protagonist is a clone of the "ethics exist to be challenged" antagonist
The clones would still have a different experience, however slight.
Kaneko "I don't like Academia politics" Lumi. One seriously begins to question if the word "politics" is just an euphemism for ethics.
The terrifying part is... that Lumi is actually incredibly smart and will absolutely destroy you if you let your guard down.
She is in fact my favorite tard... but by no means is she actually one.
[Lesser known Tzimisce kine Kaneko Lumi discusses obscure flesh crafting techniques]
Every day I worry Lumi and friends are drifting further and further from God.
And Lord knows that worries me.
man, I wish more people were smart like limon woman
Why is this so attractive?
Christmas cakes have felt less attractive after I decided I wanted many kids, despite knowing personality matters more to me. But I was not expecting a rant like this of all things to make me think, "A cake like this would be fine."
I think Lumi is mistaking people engaging the experiment for disapproval.
Sure maybe some of them are but half the point of a thought experiment is to bring up counterpoints such as ethics and thinking of some way of navigating them.
Discussions like that is why I’m glad Lumi is just a vtuber.
NGL this actually makes me think. I wonder about the ethics of genetically modifying an embryo to have no higher brain functions then using it for whatever. On one hand it is technically human, on the other it has no more intelligence than a piece of toast.
Applies to someone in a vegetative state too right?
On the other hand, if we should give rights based on what they were, surely we should consider what they will be as well?
Well that answer get answered in the OMS reunion about ethics and genetics, thats why you would get arrested if any healt organization know that you modify genetically a human and animal.
@@lordpisces5019that is actually an argument used for embryos as well. Depending on your personal views on that said argument could be good or bad.
Loomi describing the plot of The House Of The Scorpion
I like that she thinks about this kinda shit tho. Shes a bold one.
Mad scientist Lumi is Law-Dark aligned
This woman is a menace lmao
Why kill the clones when you could sell them as merch?
Dr. Lumengele
Okay, Is there any peeps in the community that can make Parody songs? I'm thinking ELO's "Evil Woman" but as "Lemon Woman".
LET LUMI COOK!
3:25
Lumi is developing the plug system for the Evangelions.
God she would make such a perfect drunk aunt
I blame the New Yorker, seriously my math teacher was a New Yorker.
wait 'til she discovers Horcruxes..
She basically described the story The Island…
The real thing is it's all incredibly impractical on top of being an ethics nightmare.
What they are actually working on with stem cells is forcing those to become the parts they want, without having to go through the process of making a full human.
I'm not aware of how far they are into these experiments but I know they were already able to make a lot of different simple tissues 10 years ago, not at scale at all, but in lab as experiments.
Calm down Lumi DiCaprio.
I'm surprised she didn't bring up cannibalism. 😂
Looks like lumi has been reading house of the scorpion
I blame fiction for rotting people's brains on this. Sci-fi has given people a twisted idea of what a "clone" is.
Biologicially speaking, a clone is an identical twin. That's it. There's no difference. Anything you claim would be fine to do to a clone, would also apply to one of a pair of identical twins.
Uh, you do realize that even sci-fi clones are basically twins as well. Even perfect clones with the same memories are their own distinct person, so all of the ethical problems discussed would be the exact same sci-fi clone or realistic clone.
That's how Rau Le Creusent came to be...
To answer the "replacement parts" approach.
On-going trials are being conducted for various organs but external body parts have been successfully "grown" but its still a cost-effectivity issue.
For the "no-womb" or "artificial womb" clones, that was allegedly attempted but was unsuccessful.
Cloning will still require a womb/surrogate mother as a proper host and "allegedly" gene-pollution from the surrogates was an issue.
For the "imparting genetic defects," gene-splicing has been in-practice as part of gene-therapy methods but as a "human-modding" approach to eventual clone production, this has allegedly been a practice that is strictly discouraged by medical ethics.
The Island (2005) with Dr. Lumi
I swear Lumi will make fast friends with Nerou twins talking about human experiments. Test subject Vedal.
Please be a bit, please be a bit, please be a bit!
Lumi discovers the house of the scorpion
Lumi talking about some 6th Day movie stuff. WHOA O_O!
somebody needs to create a real life Rapture from Bioshock and just let Lumi go wild and see what she creates.
How dare you not allow me to make crimes against humanity lol
It's only a crime if you lose
It all seems reasonable to me, I'm not sure why you all think this is odd to discuss.
Just build a robot body and put your brain in it
Lumi is truly a strategy gamer with that mindset of hers.
shrimping her way to hell lol
I love this yap queen
She's just saying what's on other people's minds. They castigate her while sighing a breath of relief that its not just them who thinks like that, while hiding behind the veneer of ethical civility.
Growing a whole clone just for a few cells seems so inefficient. The obvious trick is to grow a clone for the whole body, then just plop your brain in there.
But, that still leaves a major barrier between you and immortality: your brain. Until we find a way to prevent all brain degradation, we’ll never become immortal.
If one were to become immortal in that way, how risk averse might you become? Currently a car accident might shave 50 years off your life. But if you were biologically immortal, such an accident might prevent you from living for millennia or longer
Wait, isn't this just the plot to "Parts: the clonus horror"?
Lumi should watch the movie "the island", sounds like she'd find it interesting
Nice try Lumi, but I've played Bioshock, and know how this ends up.
also cloning is literally immortality, unless you think the clone of you is not you
Clones are literally not you.
It really is not, think about transferring data between phone, even if the phone have the same specs, and the same data, both are still different phones
lemon
Is Lumi constructing an undersea city in secret by any chance?
"Having an exact copy of yourself reduces the value of your soul" is such a capitalistic way of putting it lmao
Oh no!
I'm falling in love with Lumi.
Thats okay Loomi. Us good people don't like you either.
Based Loomie!
The Cringe Atheist Moralist vs The Based Believer (Me) that would exchange the entirety of humanity for ascension to pseudo-godhood.
GRIFFITH!!!
Techgnosis
Atheist Moralist is an oxymoron with an emphasis on the moron.
“I believe in a purely materialistic universe where the only visible law concerning biological life is survival of the fittest. But ephemeral concepts like Justice, Mercy, Love, Goodness, etc definitely exist and we should follow (my interpretation of) these things. Trust me.”
It’s the most moronic position one could hold. Either we are made in the image of God and have intrinsic value by proxy or we’re meat puppets existing in a universe with no grand designs. You can’t have it both ways.
Les Enfants Terribles
I'm so glad she chose to be a Vtuber instead of becoming a scientist.
Let her be free
Objective progress produces a higher prevalence of virtue, and perceives strong family ties as a status symbol.
Objective, actual progress introduces higer rates of happiness, and contentment.
Our current society, or modernity, if you prefer, is cultural *regression* with a bedrock of anti-human corporatism. It turns out success is damaging to humanity.
Many people spend their whole life searching for meaning, never knowing why they’re alive. What cruelty. Might it be a kindness to give your clone such a clear answer?
Should automation improve further, you might even be able to afford to give them a life far better than what most people living today get to have. You’d ofc ensure they’re free range so they can get plenty of exercise, with the best food and medicine.
They get to live the happiest ages in an ideal environment. How could a utilitarian object to the ethics of that?
Weird how the ex jebus lover kept the repressed virgin morals but thinks using clones for organs and stealing is ok
if you had a tiny clone of Hittler, would you kill it?
Did the funny mustache painter even have good genes to begin with?
Today's word is Eugenics:
the study of how to arrange reproduction within a human population to increase the occurrence of heritable characteristics regarded as desirable.
I did a bit of thinking about Lumi's premise:
A clone is functionally the same as a child. Only it is genetically identical to someone else; the clone template. There is nothing inherently special about birth over cloning that would grant special value to a natural child. The value of birth lay in the creation of a child, not the act of birth itself. Also, this clone baby is only as valuable as its creator decides (subjective theory of value) yet still has free will. Free will is a uniquely human part of the brain and a genetically identical clone would have free will just the same as its template since it has a similar brain.
Because the clone has free will, it may choose for itself what should happen to it. It has property rights over its own body, excepting, of course, its parents'/creator's nurture. The harvesting, then, of this hypothetical clone child is a crime against natural law and voids the harvester's right over their own life (execution). If the clone is modified to have a distinctly inhuman brain, without free will, then it cannot be said that it owns itself; much like plants and animals do not own themselves. The creator would then own that clone wholly and fully without contention and be free do with the clone to their heart's content.
TL;DR Clones should have rights since they are human. Clones shouldn't have rights if they have no human brain and would then be able to be ethically harvested (in Minecraft, of course). Lemon Woman is correct (for once).
Brain activity is not a precondition for having human rights. Coma, cerebral palsy, alzheimers, rabies, hydrocephalus, ALS, etc. There's a myriad of conditions that affect the human brain, none of them makes it ethical or legal to be experimented with, which is why human cloning is banned wholesale and illegal worldwide; even China sent a scientist to prison for it.
Widening the scope of the thought exercise, the problem then becomes the ethical cost opportunity of deliberately creating them like that.
In order to get passed that ethical issue, we would likely need the technology to grow isolated parts of human clones, such as growing a new heart by itself. Unfortunately, that technology is unlikely to be developed without the experience of cloning whole bodies to study the processes.
@@Deadgye Nice thought, would a clone without its mental faculties be worth the cost to create?
Clones are already possible with current technology (Dolly the Sheep), though it hasn't been tried on humans to my knowledge. Removing the potential of free will is one matter, creating human clones would be costly. Time and resources are needed to nurture the clone into an adult for harvest. The return on investment for their organs (sold through the black market perhaps?) would be nice, but medical biotechnology is seeing great advancement towards creating organs without these problems. The use of a 'stupid' clone would be limited.
A clone with free will would be, comparatively, extremely profitable. The incentives to create one would be similar to the incentives to having a child.
Maybe clones are just more trouble than they're worth? If you want organs, make an organ by itself or get an organ donor. If you want a child, make a child conventionally.
The only thing I can see to make up for the cost of clones is use as experimental lab rats replacing volunteers. Of course, that experimentation would be inexhaustive and useless without including the variable of human will. That would exclude the use of 'stupid' clones and require the participants' consent to do without breaking natural law.
Jesus fucking Christ
Shes kinda right tho
I totally agree with lumi :3
Is she pro-life or pro-choice? I bet most vtubers would have intresting opinions on the debate.
half of PC are pro-life
half of PC are pro-choice
Lumi is like, "what race is it"
Lumi is pro-organ-harvesting
@@friedrichwilhelmvonsteuben7952Lumi is the Google search equivalent of "my cat wants me to get an abortion".
she so real for this
B-but Loomieeee! Baby clones have souls too crying emoji crying emoji
Nothing is a bit, also arent eugenics more of a Dizzy thing?