So you wanna put guns in your D&D5e game

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  • Опубликовано: 3 окт 2024

Комментарии • 2,8 тыс.

  • @Zedrinbot
    @Zedrinbot  2 года назад +268

    ey I replied to comments, for that vid check here! ruclips.net/video/Rg4xJ-YliGo/видео.html
    edit: Just to summarize some points people keep bringing up that are also mentioned in the response video:
    This video covered multiple approaches because no one approach is going to work for every table or will adequately capture every single type of theming that exists. It's more meant to get you thinking about how design decisions impact both the fantasy you want and the mechanical balance, picking and choosing what aspects of realism and gameplay best fit your goals. "This is the best way to implement firearms" couldn't be further from the goal of this video.
    I also re-recorded for it 4 times because I kept being unsatisfied with my points and kept starting over, so there's some things that I missed or omitted or ran out of space for.
    -"Just play [Other system]" Systems that already have good firearm rules don't *need* a video like this. 5e kinda does need help though. It's disingenuous to suggest people to learn an entirely new system or move their games to another system entirely just for the sake of one facet of equipment. Trying new systems can be worthwhile but dismissively suggesting it like that does far more harm than good. (I should know, I've played plenty of pathfinder 1 and 2 and know firsthand how evangelical its fans can be, despite how much of a different experience Pathfinder offers over 5e.)
    -"Guns weren't all that lethal" Yeah, but I'm referring to the kind of fantasy people want to implement. Games are an abstraction of reality, so trying to quantify damage like that is kinda moot. No human can survive 40 sword stabs anywhere near as effectively as your adventurer can, for comparison. "High damage, limited use mcguffins" for firearms for instance are _mechanical_ decisions that are meant to embody certain elements that people often want to capture and encourage specific kinds of gameplay. Likewise if you want your guns more reasonable like other weapons, then you tool their strength to give them parity and optionally give them some unique interactions, as described in the latter half of the video. (I personally prefer the latter option, but there's definitely merit in the mcguffin approach.)

    • @user-sv5kt8qz3v
      @user-sv5kt8qz3v 2 года назад

      first repyl

    • @tommothedog
      @tommothedog 2 года назад +1

      Guns arent that lethal.

    • @Rundvelt
      @Rundvelt 2 года назад

      If you really want to use firearms in D&D, you're going to have to consider using a different system to keep it balanced. Unfortunately, it's silly to compare the damage of an arrow or sling pellet to a firearm, it's just not going to work.
      Core Concepts:
      A) Firearms are precision weapons and should reflect this.
      B) Firearms should be bulky and difficult to use when in close combat.
      C) They should be difficult to reload during combat.
      How do we build in firearms to D&D then?
      1) We need to think of a firearm's damage not based on the slug, but rather the shot placement. For this reason, the damage of a firearm should be directly proportional to the hit roll for the weapon. This means that there SHOULD BE NO CRITICAL HITS. It's precision only.
      2) We need to penalize damage based on the distance to the target. Anyone who's shot a firearm can tell you that while you can HIT something that's a good 60 yards away, hitting it in a good spot is sketchy at best, especially if it's moving.
      3) We need to make reloading a move action equivalent. The shooter must be planted and unable to move to use their weapon optimally.
      So, let's take a look at a weapon profile that someone may use!
      Rifle - 30/60
      Hit: 1d20 + Dex
      Damage: Hit Roll - Targets AC
      Reload: Move Action
      Special: You may not shoot the rifle at a target that threatens your square.
      What does this mean? Well, if you have a Dex of 18, roll a nat 20 and are shooting a Goblin with AC 2, you're gonna hit it for 18. Pretty nice.
      However, if you're shooting an Orc, with the same character and roll a 12, you're going to be doing 6 points of damage.
      This means that firearms rarely miss, which is how it should be, but it may not hit the sweet spot you're looking for.
      Now, you can play with the rules, however this is a far more interesting, unique and fairly easy way to incorporate firearms into your campaign.
      That's my off the cuff explanation.

    • @jmd9402
      @jmd9402 Год назад

      I know you already did your response to comments but I just thought of this idea recently and I wanted to ask someone about it. If you make a full auto machine gun, give it multiple extra attacks when in use, that way you could simulate rapid fire in a turn base game. this is probably a bad idea that ruins balance but I thought I'd give the idea

    • @higueraft571
      @higueraft571 Год назад

      Gonna be real...
      That concept for "shitloads of damage in one turn, otherwise useless after" would be PERFECT for a Pirate PC.
      Have 4-6 pistols strapped to your chest, fire them off one after the other (if any of them dont fire, oh well), then draw steel and get in close...

  • @inquisitorkobold6037
    @inquisitorkobold6037 2 года назад +2779

    There's an old saying. "If you want to train a man to use a bow, start with his grandfather. If you want to train him to use a musket, start Tuesday." Guns became popular because they were significantly easier to use than bows were, and also tend to have much greater range.

    • @Zedrinbot
      @Zedrinbot  2 года назад +397

      man that's a good quote.

    • @nevisysbryd7450
      @nevisysbryd7450 2 года назад +139

      Well, they developed a longer range. Early firearms lost half of their power at like sixty feet of travel distance.

    • @AlbinoAxolotl1993
      @AlbinoAxolotl1993 Год назад +29

      Same with crossbows.

    • @inquisitorkobold6037
      @inquisitorkobold6037 Год назад +72

      @@AlbinoAxolotl1993 Crossbows have other issues, like requiring a cocking aid such as a crank or lever to reload with any reasonable speed.

    • @redstonewarrior0152
      @redstonewarrior0152 Год назад +7

      @@inquisitorkobold6037
      You can hold the crossbow down with one foot while you pull the string back and set it with your hands.

  • @oxybe
    @oxybe 2 года назад +1496

    "Firearms and Kevlar doesn't belong in D&D"
    You're right. Let's all use laser blasters and power armour instead, as our 1e Barrier Peak ancestors intended.

    • @orrorsaness5942
      @orrorsaness5942 2 года назад +23

      😂 Lmao

    • @foxyreads
      @foxyreads 2 года назад +32

      I love that module

    • @Stavol2Dual
      @Stavol2Dual 2 года назад +38

      Its true use magic for railguns

    • @milktenders6219
      @milktenders6219 Год назад +16

      For the Emperor, for mankind

    • @getthegoons
      @getthegoons Год назад +18

      I wish freaky SciFi stuff showed up more in modern dnd..

  • @DarkTruth666
    @DarkTruth666 2 года назад +1898

    Guns being lethal always suffers from 1 major misconception. You are not your character. You are a commoner, with 4hp. So something that does 1d10 damage, will on average kill your ass dead. So the idea of making them 'realistic' would mean addressing the fact that some characters could face tank a nuke and then regenerate that damage over a cup of tea.

    • @pinguin4898
      @pinguin4898 2 года назад +266

      people forget that HP in dnd isn't just physical wellbeing but also mental fortitude and straight up stamina, it could be just narrowly dodging a bullet before it hits you, it could be getting talked down to by a bard and lying on the floor crying, it could be just barely getting nicked by an arrow in the neck and the adrenaline keeping you going. don't think that a gun will always be lethal, legit bears irl can take a bullet to the forehead and keep shambling your way

    • @bankasai3120
      @bankasai3120 2 года назад +200

      @@pinguin4898 Poison, Fall Damage, AoE Damage, and damage weaknesses DO NOT work with this kind of thought process. Plus, Meat Points is accurate to real life anyways, the shit people survive and stay conscious through would surprise you: stuff like having a railroad spike go through your skull, getting shot _sixteen_ times, and my personal favorite, getting struck by lightning ing three times in one minute. These are all things that people not only have survived, but stayed conscious and functional through
      EDIT: I feel I should clarify, by 'this' thought process I mean the 'near miss' arguments you see all over the internet. Not exactly what you said, but I see it often enough that I always feel the need to point it out

    • @mrosskne
      @mrosskne 2 года назад +1

      Have you tried not playing garbage systems for idiots?

    • @mrosskne
      @mrosskne 2 года назад +65

      @@bankasai3120 Every damage type you listed works with that thought process.

    • @pinguin4898
      @pinguin4898 2 года назад +27

      @@bankasai3120 I didn't exclude meat points from possibilities, besides, poison and aoe is likely about your pain tolerance as well

  • @VechsDavion
    @VechsDavion 2 года назад +1008

    Hot take on shotguns: SPREAD: This weapon deals double normal damage to creatures that are Swarms, and damage dealt to creatures that are Swarms cannot be reduced by resistances.

    • @Zedrinbot
      @Zedrinbot  2 года назад +359

      I like that idea, that's super specific and niche but it's unique. I'd say limit it to 2x damage though, just cause 3x will quickly trivialize any swarms, and 5e doesn't use '3x' boosts anywhere else.

    • @TheSpookiestSkeleton
      @TheSpookiestSkeleton 2 года назад +4

      veches

    • @KoishiVibin
      @KoishiVibin 2 года назад +40

      @@Zedrinbot
      Shotgun Mastery as a Feat
      Use your entire magazine to attack a projectile!
      If you can cast magic then you can shoot down fireball like some sorta demented flak cannon.
      works against an area of projectiles.
      maybe have your dex bonusin there somehwere

    • @prophetcarason
      @prophetcarason 2 года назад +8

      Woah, I watched the shit out of you like 8-10 years ago back in middle school, I remember semi-recently seeing that you were into roleplaying games but didn't expect to see you here.
      Glad you're still active man, watching super hostile stuff as a kid is a great memory.

    • @himedo1512
      @himedo1512 2 года назад +5

      But that wouldn't really do much considering the effective range of a shotgun is 30-50 yards before spread has a notable effect. In DND terms this is 18-30 5ft tiles. It would be fairly uncommon for you to be fighting swarms or what so be it at more than 30 tiles away

  • @geoffhatch4996
    @geoffhatch4996 2 года назад +401

    People: "Guns in DnD are not realistic!"
    No Mercy Percy: "I miss the part where that's my problem."

    • @hubhikarilives
      @hubhikarilives 11 месяцев назад +5

      A year later and I’m the first to applaud your joke 👏👏👏

    • @DragonKnightJin
      @DragonKnightJin 10 месяцев назад +1

      Even better because Percy doesn't miss very often.

  • @bodkie
    @bodkie 2 года назад +2090

    The sorcerer: guns shouldn't exist, because there's no way to make them realistic without being way too overpowered and deal too much damage.
    Also the sorcerer: I cast fireball (in every situation)

    • @vaulthunterfromterra4053
      @vaulthunterfromterra4053 2 года назад +48

      Barbarian/Monk players:
      *Nervous sweating* 👀

    • @MoonPatch
      @MoonPatch 2 года назад +166

      @@vaulthunterfromterra4053 No but the existence of guns makes monks infinitely more badass by virtue of being able to CATCH BULLETS
      And barbarians by virtue of being able to tank bullets.

    • @mrosskne
      @mrosskne 2 года назад +1

      Doesn't follow. A gun can deal the same damage as other weapons and be realistic. If you can get stabbed six times by a sword and live, you can get shot by a gun six times and live.

    • @foegettergames252
      @foegettergames252 2 года назад

      Its because a GOD in FAERUN said so.
      Are you suggesting that your character is more powerful than the gods just so you can use play MAGA Hero?
      You sick freaks have enough guns in your lives, you don't need to insert them into literally every single fantasy setting as well.
      Seriously, your obsession with guns is a fetish.

    • @brendenhawley2225
      @brendenhawley2225 2 года назад +15

      It is worth noting that fire ball may be one of the weaker things one can do with a sorcerer, sure it does a ton of damage to a group, but it also one of the more common resistances out there and is much less broken than hypnotic pattern, aka that army is now drooling as you slit there throats, or haste aka your barbarian is now 50% more killy, (I often turn fights into a slaughter of defenseless people with this spell.
      This just gets so much worse as one levels up and things like banishment which i use to OHKO boss fights.
      Recently i had a battle where i dealt with a fight by polymorphing into a T-rex biting a manticore until it plead for mercy and than tailslapping it into the air trying to hit his body who dodged, than I dealt with a fleeing manticore by casting hypnotic pattern so it fell to it death.

  • @darienb1127
    @darienb1127 2 года назад +1949

    Other people: "guns don't belong in a fantasy world!"
    Me: (Banging fist on table) MAGIC GUNS! MAGIC GUNS!

    • @hippityhoppityyourvirginit3823
      @hippityhoppityyourvirginit3823 2 года назад +192

      Normal guns: ✋
      Magic guns: 👉

    • @personman8734
      @personman8734 2 года назад +154

      It still amazes me that we canonically can make actual people in dnd but apparently a cannon is one step too far

    • @scottfoster7297
      @scottfoster7297 2 года назад +118

      I just helped my DM with a character that is a warlock with a gun. His gun is the spell casting focus, so all his spells come from the gun. Its called the rune rifle.

    • @indecisivecountdooku1340
      @indecisivecountdooku1340 2 года назад +44

      EXTRACT THE REMNANT SOUL OF MULTIPLE POWERFUL PEOPLE, STITCH THEIR COMPLEMENTARY ASPECTS TOGETHER TO MAKE A CANNON

    • @monday7352
      @monday7352 2 года назад +49

      I CAST BULLET

  • @drahydra
    @drahydra 2 года назад +596

    My favorite use of firearms thematically, is that they're a direct response of commonfolk keeping up with spellcasters. Rather than evolving to defeat plate mail, they were invented to match and even directly hunt magic users. To this end, I treat them a lot like reskinned wands of spells like burning hands, magic missile, etc.

    • @pretzelbomb6105
      @pretzelbomb6105 2 года назад +51

      I’m now imagining an oversized party popper that fires magic missiles.

    • @glassofwater281
      @glassofwater281 Год назад +24

      Un-magics your missile

    • @SuzuXIII
      @SuzuXIII Год назад +17

      guns that are effectively anti-mage weapons is a really cool idea

    • @iCarus_A
      @iCarus_A Год назад +3

      So kind of like Arknight's concept of originium-powered firearms/spellcasting units vs casters who can channel the same power with their body

    • @incrediblyangryskeleton
      @incrediblyangryskeleton 11 месяцев назад +3

      Commoner to sorcerer: I cast alacablam!

  • @yomejjuan
    @yomejjuan 2 года назад +325

    I always wanted to run a Fantasy, old west campaign. It would be cool to see a world where shoot outs between magic slingers and gunslingers are common, as well as how magic would be integrated into an industrializing world.

    • @warhound8496
      @warhound8496 Год назад +18

      Check the lore of the world of the video game "arcanum, of steamwork and magics". The entire game takes this them of tradition against industrial ism.

    • @miguelguedes3411
      @miguelguedes3411 Год назад +4

      west of loathing, look it up

    • @Quincy_Morris
      @Quincy_Morris Год назад

      Old west is quite a bit later than the era described here.

    • @galaloadgundy8653
      @galaloadgundy8653 Год назад +1

      @@miguelguedes3411 or the sequel shadows over loathing

    • @Existential_Robot
      @Existential_Robot 11 месяцев назад +4

      Wizard with a Gun. Arcane Yee-haw.

  • @falkyrie5228
    @falkyrie5228 Год назад +90

    _"D&D 5E isn't my favorite game, I just play it because it's what everybody else plays..."_
    I relate to this on a personal level.

    • @teseutressoldi3972
      @teseutressoldi3972 11 месяцев назад +1

      Me and my friends and kids still play 3.5 , you dont need to play if you dont like

    • @falkyrie5228
      @falkyrie5228 11 месяцев назад +2

      @@teseutressoldi3972 I run BECMI, but I've been in more 5E tables that I would like because... Well, because that's what everybody else plays and - although I would still prefer to play something else - I don't mind playing 5E.

    • @sirlionheart4614
      @sirlionheart4614 11 месяцев назад

      Bashes on dnd, still plays dnd. Typical hasbruh fangurl

  • @brandongalvan6603
    @brandongalvan6603 2 года назад +525

    Zedrin: "The only other weapon that has a d12 for its damage die is the greataxe."
    Me: *glares angrily in **_LANCE_*

    • @JackPhoenixCz
      @JackPhoenixCz 2 года назад

      *laughs in superior 2d6 damage die*

    • @MikePhantom
      @MikePhantom 2 года назад +30

      you think e5 scrubs know about lances?

    • @loadeddice4696
      @loadeddice4696 2 года назад

      @@MikePhantom The Lance is a weapon in the 5e PHB so yes, 5e scrubs absolutely do know about lances.
      Go cry about it, grognard.

    • @llewelynshingler2173
      @llewelynshingler2173 2 года назад +23

      Lances have a really weird limiting factor, where you have Disadvantage against those with five feet.

    • @brandongalvan6603
      @brandongalvan6603 2 года назад +5

      @@llewelynshingler2173 Hardly an issue if you're a Barbarian or have access to flight.

  • @ComicalRealm
    @ComicalRealm 2 года назад +3241

    "The most difficult part of DnD is finding a day when everybody can play. " - Master Oogway

    • @Zedrinbot
      @Zedrinbot  2 года назад +425

      schedules are the highest CR monster in all of D&D

    • @master0fthearts894
      @master0fthearts894 2 года назад +108

      “The second most difficult part is making sure that everyone who has agreed to play can show up.”
      -Master Oogway

    • @thetruegoldenknight
      @thetruegoldenknight 2 года назад +24

      @@Zedrinbot And not just D&D. It also applies to RPGs across the board!

    • @Kaadjoisanavaliwithtoomuchtime
      @Kaadjoisanavaliwithtoomuchtime 2 года назад +12

      i swear to god your everywhere

    • @ConfusdTarz
      @ConfusdTarz 2 года назад +4

      Wise words old turtle person

  • @suspiciouscheese4518
    @suspiciouscheese4518 2 года назад +952

    People always seem to forget that firearms have been around for a *very* long time. Rifling and wheellocks came around during the peak of plate armour, with rifles (not those famously inaccurate muskets) becoming common *before* plate armour went out of fashion.

    • @mrpizzacat8273
      @mrpizzacat8273 2 года назад +229

      Meaning the knight in full plate armour holding a gun saying “parry this you filthy casual” could’ve technically happened in history

    • @suspiciouscheese4518
      @suspiciouscheese4518 2 года назад +186

      @@mrpizzacat8273 It is totally possible that mid fight a knight backed off, whipped out a gun and said "Parry this, thou filthy casual!" And shot then their opponent.

    • @penguinlordalan
      @penguinlordalan 2 года назад +106

      It's also important to note that full plate went out of fashion because of guns! No reason to wear all that armour when it just makes you a easier target to get shot

    • @suspiciouscheese4518
      @suspiciouscheese4518 2 года назад +131

      @@penguinlordalan True, however there was a period where the two coexisted. You can look up "munition armour". Early firearms weren't very powerful so for a while it was still viable to armour against them.

    • @wojciechkolaczkiewicz2881
      @wojciechkolaczkiewicz2881 2 года назад +45

      @@mrpizzacat8273 especially on horse back. First charge and stick Lance through 5 people, then have pistol (s) in left hand(for high profile targets) while using sabre as main weapon.
      That's irl tactic used at end of Calvary age

  • @Potoaster
    @Potoaster 2 года назад +148

    With guns in my steampunk 5e game, I replaced hp with luck. Every “hit” with a gun is a miss/graze, but as your luck runs out, the next shot may just be that fatal blow. So no complaining about realism for tanking 8 bullets to the head or anything. Essentially, guns become flavored bows. The luck idea plays nice with the idea of getting stabbed multiple times, too.

    • @Specter_1125
      @Specter_1125 Год назад +21

      HP is explicitly described as including your luck in 5e (luck, stamina, pain tolerance, will to live). If the attack doesn’t take you below 0 HP, the attack doesn’t cause a significant injury.

    • @Hazel-xl8in
      @Hazel-xl8in Год назад +16

      reminds me of when i heard someone say “HP stands for Hero Points. they’re a measure of how long you can continue being a hero.”

    • @SusCalvin
      @SusCalvin Год назад +9

      The various grit/flesh systems use two layers of hp. Grit which is the more nebulous luck, weariness, pain tolerance, stamina etc. Flesh which is actual wounds cutting into you. Flesh is rapidly capped while grit keeps shooting away.
      Grit is easily recovered, with a cup of tea and a sit-down or some vodka or a group prayer. Flesh requires healing magic, slow bed rest etc.
      Certain things can bypass the grit layer. Sneak attacks, poison, falling off a building, lucky 20 hits. Then characters drop fast.

    • @m0j026
      @m0j026 Год назад +10

      Ooh, isn't this exactly what they did in Uncharted? People were complaining about realism because "how can the protag get shot multiple times and then do parkour and shit" so the devs just told them that his hp is just his luck and when he dies is because someone actually got a clean shot on him

    • @TheReZisTLust
      @TheReZisTLust 11 месяцев назад +2

      Ah the Uncharted solution. Fair enough lol

  • @cr0wnin
    @cr0wnin 2 года назад +273

    For anyone brining up the point of realism, may I remind you that the raven has a flight speed of 50 feet per turn. If each turn is 6 seconds, that translates to about 8.3 feet per second, or 16.6 feet per second, if you're dashing. That translates to about 10 miles per hour when dashing. At max speed.

    • @williamchristy9463
      @williamchristy9463 2 года назад +57

      That's ridiculously slow. They move twice to three times that, for anyone curious.

    • @estoericaferret
      @estoericaferret 2 года назад +17

      That's combat speed, though. D&D rules have always distinguished between combat speeds and travel speeds.

    • @williamchristy9463
      @williamchristy9463 2 года назад +33

      @@estoericaferret But surely, combat speed should be faster, and not twice as slow.

    • @cr0wnin
      @cr0wnin 2 года назад +40

      @@estoericaferret Combat speed is still a speed though. If a raven attempted to fly at this speed in real life, it would fall. Granted, I can see why it's not fair for combat for a raven to fly at ~200 feet per second per turn without dashing, but still.

    • @estoericaferret
      @estoericaferret 2 года назад +17

      @@williamchristy9463 actually combat speed is always slower. It's the careful movement of combatants jockeying for a tactically advantageous position. Even when dashing with your action (or bonus action if you're luck enough to have that ability), you move slower in combat than out of it.

  • @princezuko8100
    @princezuko8100 2 года назад +683

    If you wanna homebrew guns in your game, the most important thing to ask yourself first is: what

    • @MercenaryX21
      @MercenaryX21 2 года назад +61

      From muskets and footlocks all the way to revolvers I think are your best bets in terms of allowing technology eat while still keeping the I'll still keep in the fantasy aspects. I think going as far as revolvers and nothing more makes the best sense because it gives you that reload time disadvantage which balances things

    • @HouseLyrander
      @HouseLyrander 2 года назад +23

      I like to have at least flintlocks available, if only to justify having so many people wearing plate armor

    • @Kaadjoisanavaliwithtoomuchtime
      @Kaadjoisanavaliwithtoomuchtime 2 года назад +11

      id say matchlock muskets is good

    • @mongodroid4842
      @mongodroid4842 2 года назад +8

      @@HouseLyrander I'd say it would be hard to justify wearing plate armor if someone has a once/minute death machine that can pierce plate armor at certain ranges
      if anything, this is a good excuse as to why every adventurer isn't dumping all of their gold in heavy armor, sometimes not being seen in the first place is better

    • @HouseLyrander
      @HouseLyrander 2 года назад +31

      @@mongodroid4842 Actually, plate was fairly good at stopping bullets up until the Napoleonic era. The term "bulletproof" comes from how armorsmiths would shoot the armor they made to leave a dent to act as proof that it could stop bullets. Chain however, while making you pretty much invincible against swords, was far less effective against guns and only persisted because plate was so much more expensive and difficult to make.
      But then, you make a fine point about adventurers. They're not fighting in the open field surrounded by mean with spears like landed knights and only the most successful and famous of heroes have patrons willing to shell out for whatever gear they want, so cheap and discreet linens and leathers would be much more viable for them. And even if they had the cash for it, the fact that they regularly have to hike long distances means they might not go for the hot and sweaty metal armor unless they're specially conditioned for it like a Fighter might be.

  • @johnathonharker266
    @johnathonharker266 2 года назад +95

    The concept of firearms as "martial wands," is a super cool way of representing them

    • @DragonKnightJin
      @DragonKnightJin 10 месяцев назад

      Cue the "Blasting Scepter", which seems to be what people think of shotguns to be.
      (At-will upcasted Thunderwave from a gun-like wand)

  • @mrjellyfish6406
    @mrjellyfish6406 2 года назад +460

    "Goblin Layer" a dream we all strive for.

    • @pinguin4898
      @pinguin4898 2 года назад +25

      look at the rightmost goblin

    • @NathanMarcusSPhua
      @NathanMarcusSPhua 2 года назад +14

      @@pinguin4898 Sweet mother of BAZONGAS...

    • @HellishSpoon
      @HellishSpoon 2 года назад +3

      i like the one in the wizard hat.

    • @HypercomboProduction
      @HypercomboProduction 2 года назад +4

      Goblin F***er vs Goblin Layer, who wins?!

    • @fallout921
      @fallout921 2 года назад +6

      I would be much more excited if they were all buff guy goblins but this is alright too

  • @boomkruncher325zzshred5
    @boomkruncher325zzshred5 2 года назад +76

    A homebrew flavor for the reloading mechanic: make the action the reload, but then have the reloading property be a bonus action to fire the weapon you reloaded. You cannot take this bonus action if you are not proficient in firearms. Thus, you can fire, do a bonus action, next turn reload as your action and fire again. Make a Gunslinger feat that allows you to ignore the reloading property on firearms with the finesse or versatile properties.

    • @hellhound74
      @hellhound74 11 месяцев назад +2

      Just re flavor crossbow expert to be a "gun" expert

  • @saintpatrick7673
    @saintpatrick7673 Год назад +3

    Here's a thing to tell anyone who says "guns aren't Medieval or fantasy" tell them about the Siege of Calais 1346, or the Battle of Kutná Hora in 1421, or Li Ting and his troops in 1287. Guns existed, just not widespread, by the late Medieval blacksmiths had already started making different types of armor for dealing with guns.

  • @danksterdan1682
    @danksterdan1682 2 года назад +589

    "You can just limit how many guns you give your party"
    Literally any party member with Smith's Tools proficiency: I missed the part where that's my problem

    • @kingfail3819
      @kingfail3819 2 года назад +50

      Firearms are expensive, so crafting one will take a long time, 2 months for a single musket using the PHB crafting rules, 1 if you have help. The campaigns where taking even a 1 month sabbatical from the narrative is possible, let alone permissible, are few and far between.

    • @HenriFaust
      @HenriFaust 2 года назад +46

      Making a gun or cannon also requires special metallurgical techniques. The first manufacturers of guns and cannons were bell makers, not regular smiths.

    • @danksterdan1682
      @danksterdan1682 2 года назад +15

      @@kingfail3819 *laughs in Fabricate*

    • @danksterdan1682
      @danksterdan1682 2 года назад +14

      @@HenriFaust Considering that "bellmaker's tools" aren't a thing in 5E, it gets folded into Smith's.

    • @HenriFaust
      @HenriFaust 2 года назад +23

      @@danksterdan1682 It isn't the tools that are different, so much as how the tools are used. Bells must be much more study than swords to withstand daily use and exposure to the elements. It is these special smelting and machining techniques that made bell smiths ideal for creating the first firearms.
      Given a fantasy setting, it's not implausible for regular smiths to build firearms, but it would be beyond the skill of the average smith, unless they were a firearms specialist.

  • @travisgravelle7687
    @travisgravelle7687 2 года назад +147

    I like what I am hearing. One thing people tend to skip over in this discussion is sword and pistol style. With one or the other as a primary weapon.

    • @penguinlordalan
      @penguinlordalan 2 года назад +23

      Historically with early firearms this was pretty much always the case, firearms were always pared with some melee weapon as otherwise short range your near useless. I think the best use of firearms in DnD would be like a opening attack paired with melee after, but even having multiple guns with a sword works great

    • @travisgravelle7687
      @travisgravelle7687 2 года назад +2

      @@penguinlordalan in most game settings you encounter this is rarely the case. It all one or the other. Especially in systems that over emphasize off hand penalties.

    • @francez123456789
      @francez123456789 2 года назад +1

      The one time i played the warhammer fantasy rpg my character trained the noble PC in firearms use and he actually adopted that style... kinda want to play it again but something tells me the GM got super turned off by it because it devolved into PvP by the end...

  • @Zedrinbot
    @Zedrinbot  2 года назад +616

    Maybe I should've made the "maybe try other systems too if you want guns in your game" message less implicit cause it's going way over a lot of commenters heads.

    • @pavelowjohn9167
      @pavelowjohn9167 2 года назад +48

      Yeah, it seems like a lot of people are in the "I play D&D and only D&D" frame of mind these days. In the beginning, if you're still learning the rules, I get it, you don't want to confuse yourself by jumping into another system. But if you are at the point where you're wanting to add advanced technology to your game, you're probably ready to try another game entirely. So just grab one and give it a shot (pun intended), you'll probably enjoy it.
      Honestly, looking back at all the table-top games I've played over the years (D&D and the Pathfinder offshoot, Starfinder, Savage Worlds, Call of Cthulhu, Gamma World, the old Victory Games James Bond 007 RPG, and various historical wargames), the vast majority had firearms in them, so there are plenty of settings and systems to choose from if you're wanting to play something with firearms.

    • @Zedrinbot
      @Zedrinbot  2 года назад +54

      @@pavelowjohn9167 it's more I'm getting a lot of comments of "if you wanna use guns just play a different system" like bruh did you see my conclusion
      but also that'd be a bad and condescending video if i just left it at 'play something else'

    • @suspiciouscheese4518
      @suspiciouscheese4518 2 года назад +13

      I think the big issue is convincing my friends to learn a new system. As a DM it also seems like kind of a pain too. That’s why I want to keep the bulk of 5e in place so I can minimize the new learning. Also, I’m looking to implement them into an existing 5e campaign so there’s that too.

    • @lhtyeehaw1319
      @lhtyeehaw1319 2 года назад +2

      Unrelated but if your fantasy world has guns AND dragons, then AA guns should be commonplace

    • @mrosskne
      @mrosskne 2 года назад +2

      @@Zedrinbot like anyone's gonna sit through a 20 minute fuckin video lmao

  • @officersoulknight6321
    @officersoulknight6321 Год назад +4

    One cool way you could do it is that the guns are extremely powerful but ammo is very hard to come by, having to either buy it for an exorbinant cost or manufacture it themselves to replace rest time. Could work for the “Extremely powerful right out of the box” idea while also having it actually be tactically interesting.

  • @Blast335pokemineblox
    @Blast335pokemineblox 2 года назад +14

    I've always liked the idea of a magic user who uses a break-action pistol or rifle that fires spells contained within bullets. Think Sharla from Xenoblade Chronicles

  • @TITAN_101
    @TITAN_101 2 года назад +77

    If games or anime (like Final Fantasy's medieval-themed ones to anime like Fairy Tail) can pull of guns in a semi-believable & immersive way, from magic-fueled muskets to clockwork Metal Gears, I think anyone can if planed correctly.
    note: I don't play D&D just know someone who does

  • @maxibillion2885
    @maxibillion2885 2 года назад +480

    An interesting bit of firearms history: The 30 years war was when firearms became truly prolific and began serving in Europe-wide conflicts, when bayonets hadn’t yet become a workable concept. The usual combat formation was the “Tercio”, blocks of pikemen supported by smaller blocks of muskets, plus light cavalry and skirmishers with rifled weapons. Arquebusiers would fire, retreat between the pikes, reload, and emerge for another volley. Funnily enough, a battle was won because an entire army just ducked when the enemy fired, then advanced and attacked.
    As for actually topical stuff, I plan to run a hyperrealism campaign with the gang, and plan to include guns for the exact reason you laid out at the start: there aren’t prerequisites for use. Whereas warbows (which don’t necessarily need to be longbows, just high-poundage bows) need a strength minimum and a number of weapons require proficiency to even use, guns are grab-and-go, providing basically single-use ranged firepower to the wielder.

    • @twilightgardenspresentatio6384
      @twilightgardenspresentatio6384 2 года назад

      I make them roll for attack with guns until they gain proficiency.

    • @lukatomas9465
      @lukatomas9465 2 года назад +16

      "The 30 years war was when firearms became truly prolific" Firearms were already the most common weapon on European battlefields for several decades before Thirty Years War.
      "plus light cavalry and skirmishers with rifled weapons" Heavy cavalry, like cuirassiers, were still fielded and almost no skirmishers would have rifles in the Thirty Years Wars.

    • @jonsimpson6240
      @jonsimpson6240 2 года назад +3

      @@lukatomas9465 they had units of marksmen with rifled matchlocks, usually local hunters or poachers. They didn't really see action in field battles, but would be seen in situations like river crossings or sieges.

    • @griffinflyer77
      @griffinflyer77 2 года назад +2

      @@lukatomas9465 wait wait no fact check on the battle that was won by ducking!? did it actually happen?

    • @lukatomas9465
      @lukatomas9465 2 года назад +9

      @@griffinflyer77 I don't believe that any battle was won for that reason but I do remember reading something about a spanish unit ducking during the battle of Nordlingen to avoid a swedish salvo and the battle would ultimately be won by the spanish and imperial armies.

  • @deamonmindgaming2054
    @deamonmindgaming2054 2 года назад +60

    Man I can't wait to take on 50 goblins all at once.

    • @SaberusTerras
      @SaberusTerras 2 года назад +4

      I'll take on 50 goblinas, when Dec 1 rolls around. ;)

    • @sipinosapa
      @sipinosapa 2 года назад +2

      In a fight right?

  • @matheusmoreira9951
    @matheusmoreira9951 2 года назад +17

    Usually in games I've been in with guns, we usually make it an action to reload and they have an amount of ammo that is in the gun at once, so for example, if you have a six shooter revolver, you can shoot it six times before having to take an action to reload it.

  • @FirePrank6
    @FirePrank6 2 года назад +4

    I'll throw in my experience, I created and ran a homebrew for 5e (basically reskinned sections of the PH) designed around late Civil War era firearms (around 4d8 damage per attack). My group also tends to play tactically and to build characters more carefully, so this might not work out with more willy nilly groups. Our sessions very much echoed experiences I've had in high-magic, high level settings in 3.5e. As fighters become more powerful, the more traditional offensive classes (STR-Fighter, Fireballing Sorcerer) become irrelevant and the more wits, utility spell casters, tactics, gear and spell choices win the day. The party now cared far more about the AC bonus from cover or the speed bonus from a horse than a +1 attack bonus. My favorite is how much value they placed on a grease spell or the cunning use of dynamite than any one characters attack. Letting things be dangerous and out of whack can be okay if the group is up for it, but there is a reason D&D has stayed the way it is. The game gives players some leeway to act out their characters in a way that a swarm of commoners unloading heroic levels of damage doesn't.

  • @Counttec
    @Counttec 2 года назад +41

    Comparing guns to wands reminds me that Wizard with a Gun is a game that exists and will be released soon.

    • @insertreferencehere.8066
      @insertreferencehere.8066 2 года назад +1

      I need more information on this.

    • @gumebe4349
      @gumebe4349 2 года назад +3

      When the mage takes out the "Staff of Destruction" except the staff is just an RPG

  • @justas423
    @justas423 2 года назад +191

    I think combining the "Deal 1 damage to enemies withing 5 feet of your target" and "Treat 3/4 cover as 1/2 cover and 1/2 cover as no cover, but enemies count as full cover" is the perfect synthesis necessary to make shotguns both feel realistic but also make them work nicely.

    • @mrosskne
      @mrosskne 2 года назад +3

      But that isn't how shotguns work. They're not nearly inaccurate enough to actually hit multiple targets.

    • @PilotTed
      @PilotTed 2 года назад +12

      @YourDaddy (; *loads blunderbuss with nails, rocks, and tacks with malicious intent.*

    • @Christopher-eq1rn
      @Christopher-eq1rn 2 года назад

      Thats more blunderbuss than shotgun

  • @samiamrg7
    @samiamrg7 2 года назад +405

    I’m sure many of you know about the “peasant rail gun,” but what about Counter Marching, aka the “medieval machine gun?” Unlike the peasant rail gun, this one is actually a real tactic that doesn’t require exploiting game logic. You just get a big line of guys who each have a gun, have the front one fire and then move to the back of the line. Then the next guy fires and goes to the back. And on and on until the first guy is back at the front having reloaded his weapon in the time he was waiting in line, ready to fire again.

    • @harloweboggin2222
      @harloweboggin2222 2 года назад +66

      So just normal kneel fire line infantry tactics

    • @samiamrg7
      @samiamrg7 2 года назад +57

      @@harloweboggin2222 Counter marching was developed a century or two before line infantry tactics when infantry formations still tended to be deeper and had a lot of pikemen. Tactics and training were such that they couldn’t spread out into a line without over-exposing themselves, so they developed counter marching to try and get the most out of their gunmen.

    • @22beesjustvibin67
      @22beesjustvibin67 2 года назад

      I raise you this beast ruclips.net/video/rCuVMx5h1x0/видео.html

    • @mennoltvanalten7260
      @mennoltvanalten7260 2 года назад +18

      @@harloweboggin2222 No because when it was designed reloading still took a lot longer, so you needed much more ranks than the 3 ranks that system uses. Which means marching around to not impede others firing line.

    • @cooperdavis9663
      @cooperdavis9663 2 года назад +7

      @@mennoltvanalten7260 which is why the first row has to kneel to reload while the second row fires

  • @ericadams1446
    @ericadams1446 10 месяцев назад +1

    Love the idea of using movement as the reload requirement. One shot per round and movement to reload. Add bayonets and you get a spear that shoots pretty cool weapon.

  • @daltooinewestwood6380
    @daltooinewestwood6380 11 месяцев назад

    Between the 1500-1700s there was a brief period where Calvary had pistols and pike lines were flanked by riflemen. Japanese fudalism had a brief period where guns were used as well. I’m cool with stuff like matchlocks, flintlocks, blunderbusses, and canons, they have a reload time that makes them functionally the same as using a bow by game mechanic standards

  • @pavelowjohn9167
    @pavelowjohn9167 2 года назад +70

    So far (knock on wood), I've had really good luck with the firearm-using characters that people have played in my home games. In fact, my wife is playing a musket master gunslinger in the Pathfinder AP we're currently playing. She's effective, but not OP and definitely has situations where she has to switch to a crossbow (musket is broken, fight is underwater, party is trying to be stealthy, etc...) Back when I was a PFS organized play GM, I do remember some players trying to make that 'broken' gunslinger that would kill everything in 1 or 2 rounds, but they usually got clobbered with a well-timed confusion spell or whatnot and then never came back (problem solved!)

    • @justas423
      @justas423 2 года назад +5

      First Rule of Pathfinder 1e/D&D 3.5e/D&D 5e character builds: Doesn't matter if your martial build can two shot everything if it can't counter Spellcasters just turning your character off with No-Save or Save-Or-Suck spells.

    • @nohi3619
      @nohi3619 2 года назад

      @@justas423 What about PF2e?

  • @ENCHANTMEN_
    @ENCHANTMEN_ 2 года назад +311

    I think it's important to take into consideration what the *players* want out of guns. Do they want realism? Do they want slow shooting? Do they want reflavored crossbows?
    Realism always takes a backseat to fun imo. If players want to be a gunslinger with a fancy clockwork gun they can reload quickly, let them. Just find a way to balance it.
    You could even have it both ways. Maybe regular firearms take a long time to reload and are basic weapons, but there are also fancy magitech guns that require special training and fire quickly but do less damage.

    • @KoishiVibin
      @KoishiVibin 2 года назад +8

      ok but
      what if i want to tactically reload magic crystals into my magic gunwand
      dZIW dZIW

    • @mickyflint
      @mickyflint 2 года назад +8

      So like jakobs vs maliwan.

    • @glassofwater281
      @glassofwater281 Год назад +2

      @@mickyflintLmao perfect

    • @sethmays8309
      @sethmays8309 11 месяцев назад +3

      Guns fired about a quickly as heavy crossbows(windlass/cranequin) but had an option(if you were rich) to be breechloading with preloaded cartridges. Henry VIII had a breechloading matchlock around 1500 with the technology predating that by a few decades. Wheellocks will appear fairly close to 1500 as will rifling (straight and twist). So it would not be out of setting for a Renaissance inspired campaign to have breechloading wheellock rifles alongside full plate armor and rapiers.

    • @Pain_train_wielder
      @Pain_train_wielder 10 месяцев назад

      @@sethmays8309so, they had rolling block rifles, but just refused to give them to people because they were considered a luxury? What a world people used to live in

  • @SergioLeonardoCornejo
    @SergioLeonardoCornejo 2 года назад +437

    Firearms belong in a fantasy setting. So does high tech in general.
    Why? Because when you got literal barriers, magic missile, and world destroying creatures, anything goes.
    Just remember that magical sword might turn the normie level six shooter quite redundant.

    • @Zedrinbot
      @Zedrinbot  2 года назад +80

      Thematically yes, though most magic bonuses are only like a +1 bonus etc

    • @SergioLeonardoCornejo
      @SergioLeonardoCornejo 2 года назад +44

      @@Zedrinbot well. I was thinking more precisely of the "Sword capable of releasing magic beams and work as ranged weapon" kind of magical sword.
      Any fantasy setting with such a thing is entirely compatible with firearms.
      Actually things like magic missile make them somewhat redundant.

    • @Zedrinbot
      @Zedrinbot  2 года назад +40

      @@SergioLeonardoCornejo the rough spot is magic item accessibility.
      5e REALLY doesn't want players to be able to buy magic items. They give vague price ranges and leave it up entirely to the DM; and whatever they choose, guns would sorta need to be handled the same way, despite being mundane.
      If it were like other systems where you can just buy said enchantment for your sword, then guns have a lot more parity.

    • @SergioLeonardoCornejo
      @SergioLeonardoCornejo 2 года назад +6

      @@Zedrinbot there are ways, as you outlined in the video. But, yes, some systems make it easier than others.

    • @lostbutfreesoul
      @lostbutfreesoul 2 года назад +14

      Pathfinder handled it very well - Technology is just another form of Magic.
      If I grafted some sort of tech-tech arm to myself, good chance I would be using a 'Ray of X' spell to calculate.

  • @taylorbednarz2972
    @taylorbednarz2972 2 года назад +2

    For shotguns and blunderbusses, I always make it a DC dex save for the target(s) within the cone. With the target having disadvantage on this check at melee range, straight check at medium, and advantage on long range, on success they take half. The shotgun in my campaign at level 6 is 3d6+dex, but does need an action to reload. It has worked really really well.

  • @alchemispark7751
    @alchemispark7751 10 месяцев назад +9

    If anyone ever tells you guns dont belong in a fantasy setting, litteraly just point at warhammer fantasy and watch them cope and seethe

    • @Thurmanation2011s
      @Thurmanation2011s 4 месяца назад +2

      Or point to the robots and aliens in DnD.

    • @bradley4465
      @bradley4465 18 дней назад

      Warhammer is about armies, not peasants. The only guns that are commonplace are rifles, that do diddly-squat against an average enemy. (Chaos). The dwarves have the most powerful guns, which are double barrel shotguns. Double barrels are the best, and they barely fare well against anything more well prepared than a skaven-slave.

    • @alchemispark7751
      @alchemispark7751 18 дней назад

      @@bradley4465 "do diddly squat against an average enemy" you are not a clown, you are the entire circus, sincerely, someone who has played total war warhammer

  • @onlirier2993
    @onlirier2993 2 года назад +67

    "gUnS iN d&d ShOuLd Be SuPeR lEtHaL tO bE rEaLiStIc"
    Me: Uses gun that deals, say, 1d8 damage, which is an OHKO to a peasant with 4 hp 50% of the time and is otherwise a very big wound

    • @kekkres
      @kekkres 2 года назад +17

      The thing that always gets me is, getting shot is way less lethal than an axe blow or what have you

    • @zacheryeckard3051
      @zacheryeckard3051 2 года назад +14

      @@kekkres I think the difference is that it's easier to avoid the axe blow.
      Whether you consider HP to be meat points or stamina, I think it can be a bit of both. More of the Axe's damage represents running down the stamina of your opponent before getting the killing blow. Whereas with the gun, it might be more about actual hits, if only grazing, and accumulated damage.

    • @thekinginyellowmessiahofha6308
      @thekinginyellowmessiahofha6308 2 года назад +2

      I have them use two damage dice so they always roll more damage on average but take an action to reload (promoting blast and smash)

    • @X4Alpha4X
      @X4Alpha4X 2 года назад +6

      the thing with guns is that they are the great equalizer, they allow a peasant to kill a king but can be harder to aim accurately than youd think. My homebrew would simply be:
      flintlock rifle: 2d12 no modifiers to damage, dex to hit with a 15/300 ft range. 1 attack per action reload takes 1 bonus action. if you have proficiency with the weapon you add proficiency to hit, and range goes to 200/400
      flintlock pistol: 3d6 no modifiers to damage or hit with a 10/150 ft range. 1 attack per action reload takes 1 bonus action. if you have proficiency with the weapon you add proficiency + dex to hit, and range goes to 30/200ft
      Bolt Action Rifle: Legendary item; 3d12 no modifiers to damage, dex to hit with a 20/300ft range. +2 to hit. 5 attacks per action, reload takes 1 action. if you have proficiency with the weapon you add proficiency to hit, and range goes to 300/600ft, Crits now also have advantage.

    • @zacheryeckard3051
      @zacheryeckard3051 2 года назад +2

      @@X4Alpha4X The whole point of guns is proficiency is easier than with anything else.

  • @vaulthunterfromterra4053
    @vaulthunterfromterra4053 2 года назад +207

    “But how am I supposed to parry a gun”
    By...blocking the bullets?
    Or by typical club/bat style block if they’re out of ammo.
    Problem solved.

    • @gorillaguerillaDK
      @gorillaguerillaDK 2 года назад

      Catching the bullet between your teeth....

    • @xenogorwraithblade2538
      @xenogorwraithblade2538 2 года назад +13

      *laughs in monk*

    • @loadeddice4696
      @loadeddice4696 2 года назад +31

      Winston Churchill said that the only sure defence against an atom bomb is to be somewhere else when it goes off
      That's actually quite easy when it's a bullet.

    • @SkoomaGodDovahkiin666
      @SkoomaGodDovahkiin666 2 года назад +2

      Cover. The COG would have a field day.

    • @crowsenpai5625
      @crowsenpai5625 2 года назад +8

      “Obviously you grab them out of the air and thrown them back at the gunman.”
      -Party Monk

  • @h4xorzist
    @h4xorzist 2 года назад +117

    Firearms are rater perfect in a timetable from ancient China to Japan, topping off at European Fuse-, Wheel-, and Flintlocks.
    As one might notice, that completely overlaps with the historical equivalent of pretty much any fantasy equivalent. During these times you get firearms with interesting mechanics and that is before you add some warpstone to them yes-yes.

  • @petersmythe6462
    @petersmythe6462 Год назад +1

    Worth mentioning but D&D has heavy crossbows and full plate which were definitely not around yet but the time of the first guns, so anyone saying "no firearms because fantasy setting" is literally forgetting that firearms ranging from firelance to arquebus coexisted with real life settings of equal or lower tech for 600 years.

  • @vernonriedle664
    @vernonriedle664 11 месяцев назад +1

    Muskets and flintlocks or blunderbuss are very fitting with fantasy as it stays to the medieval theme

  • @stokeschristopher
    @stokeschristopher 2 года назад +6

    I do really like the idea of the fatal property. Having lower base damage but more punishing criticals sounds like a good way to add some fun high points to firearms.

    • @Zedrinbot
      @Zedrinbot  2 года назад

      In PF2 it's really neat cause accuracy has a more direct impact on damage, given how higher accuracy means not just more hits, but also more crits.

  • @mollymcallister1671
    @mollymcallister1671 2 года назад +43

    So here was a thought I had while watching the vid....
    Smoothbore firearms (muskets) implement an 'inaccurate' property. What this does is it means you can't use your proficiency modifier with this weapon, even if you should otherwise have proficiency with it. This property would only work with smoothbore, single-projectile weapons like Arquebus and Muskets. Rifles and Shotguns/Blunderbus would use proficiency modifiers as normal (but) rifles would be more expensive/rarer and scatterguns would have reduced range compared to a musket.

    • @Zedrinbot
      @Zedrinbot  2 года назад +20

      That'd probably just have the side effect of just making people never use the weapon.

    • @mollymcallister1671
      @mollymcallister1671 2 года назад +6

      @@Zedrinbot Well, this is assuming it still comes with other advantages like the higher damage-die in RAW or one of the other advantages you spun-up like bonuses to criticals (which would make it still appealing for a line of peasants all firing at once which was what muskets were originally used for anyway.)

    • @rachdarastrix5251
      @rachdarastrix5251 2 года назад +1

      I once knew a few Buccaneers who would disagree. But I'm not them so I wouldn't know.

    • @nathaniellindner313
      @nathaniellindner313 2 года назад

      Inaccuracy caused by windage is a real phenomenon, but probably not much more (if at all more) than loss of accuracy over similar distances by crossbows bolts, arrows fired at long range flopping along an arc, etc., and at the distance that most D&D fights take place at (sub-100 feet/30 meters), a bullet is going to go mostly where you point it, especially within a 5 foot area of accuracy. I'd argue that an "inaccurate" property would better be modelled as doubling range increment penalties, or just isn't needed due to the existing system penalties for long-range shooting.

  • @Quincy_Morris
    @Quincy_Morris Год назад

    A more reasonable saving throw wouldn’t be noise but the kick of the gun.

  • @ironyconfident
    @ironyconfident 2 года назад

    The loud cracks off your flint attract two more patrols of goblins. You will not be able to rest after this encounter.

  • @samiamrg7
    @samiamrg7 2 года назад +30

    The biggest part of training with early firearms was getting faster reload speeds and moving/firing in formation. There was some experience needed to keep the rods and powder and bullets all organized on your person in the middle of battle.

    • @Draeckon
      @Draeckon 2 года назад +4

      Yeah, but that still takes far less time to reach reasonable competence than the years, sometimes decades, of training needed to become reliably competent with a bow.

  • @cartern5471
    @cartern5471 2 года назад +8

    When I played a game with firearms the DM made the ammo incredibly rare, but the guns substantially powerful to make up for it. It essentially became a panic weapon for our artificer if we were in a tough fight.

  • @zackcook5123
    @zackcook5123 2 года назад +40

    For me in my setting I use guns to represent the dawning of technology as well as a bygone era.
    Their are two types of firearms in my setting.
    Powder guns and rivet guns.
    Powder guns are slightly more powerful than traditional weapons, but are limited in range and need an action to reload.
    Some operate like the blunderbuss, others are multi barrel and the masterpieces are closer to revolvers. With simple and martial variant, some stronger guns have a simple extra rule for jamming, these are exotic for thematic purposes.
    They also cost more to get and for ammo.
    But my issue with guns is players, often firearms attract Mary/Marty sue/stue players that want assault rifles that annihilate dragons in one shot. Or to have sniper rifles that can shoot for miles, and heaven forbid an enemy uses any of these weapons
    However for my group I'm going to be redoing 5e weapon system a bit. Simply adding universal traits. I love 5e but it has its faults that could be easily fixed in many cases.

    • @destroyer1667
      @destroyer1667 2 года назад +12

      > want assault rifles that can annihilate dragons in one shot
      Aside from such a weapon realistically being almsot useless against a creature that big, the obvious balancing action is to give the dragons modern weapons too. Good luck parrying that air launched ballistic missile carrying a nuclear warhead.

    • @zackcook5123
      @zackcook5123 2 года назад +7

      @@destroyer1667 yeah I made that point it was never countered with anything of substance "but that's overpowered".
      It was just a crap group "well this is a gun and flintlocks technically fired 50 cal so that means the gun should be instant death"
      Or
      "I made a pirate so I get guns"
      "Flintlocks are gay I want a Magnum"

    • @charlottewalnut3118
      @charlottewalnut3118 2 года назад +8

      Actually given that the scales on most dragons are at least as hard as steel and tend to be multiple inches thick most assault rifle rounds would not just bounce off of them but proceed to shatter exploding on the user and their allies

    • @beywheelzhater8930
      @beywheelzhater8930 2 года назад

      @@zackcook5123 if we were going by realistic stuff like a .50 cal bullet leading to instant death, basically everything should lead to death. Your party member just got stabbed by a rusty, dirty sword from a skeleton in a dungeon, they now gains an infection. Their choices are now getting another party member to amputate the limb with a DC 20 medicine check less you die of blood loss or dying over time as the infection spreads

  • @headlesshunter8435
    @headlesshunter8435 2 года назад +1

    SW5e is a free resource some people are actively working on that makes a pretty good adaptation of 5e to the star wars setting
    it has a great system for guns thats *very* 5e. aka highly moddable and with a good backbone.
    all I changed with the system was decreasing the commonality of ammo (making it harder to find and more expensive for guns) and increasing the damage die to 2 for their respected damage class (d4/6/8/10/12)
    aka a big bolt action rifle thats clunky would have the properties
    *2 handed* , *heavy* , *reload 6* (they need to use a bonus action or action to reload after 6 shots, and *bolt action* (spend a bonus action to fire again)
    its damage is 2d8+dex (rifles being like longswords in favorability by people throughout history) and each bullet is 3gp
    range would be custom depending on what I really need the rifle to be in the setting.

  • @Himitsu420
    @Himitsu420 7 месяцев назад

    This has been the best video on the subject. Absolutely! Thank you.

  • @kevingriffith6011
    @kevingriffith6011 2 года назад +32

    The inclusion of a slow-reloading, high damage weapon adds a bit of a kink in 5e's combat that I don't think a lot of DMs account for in their combats: They make the first turn of combat significantly more deadly. This has all kinds of tactical implications, but in general it gives an even greater advantage to the side that goes first, and makes the already deadly ambushes of 5th edition even deadlier. I don't have a lot of advice to give to counteract this, other than adding more enemies (which is dangerous thanks to action economy) or relying less on powerful singular enemies (which is something that 5e is already bad at, even with legendary actions/resistances)

    • @cryamistellimek9184
      @cryamistellimek9184 2 года назад

      I think if you’re worried about you’re big bad guy getting gatted first then, you could just have his mobs ambush first turn then have him move in once you’ve expended their firearm options.

    • @h3lblad3
      @h3lblad3 2 года назад +4

      D&D table of 9 musket users in infantry square formation.

    • @zacheryeckard3051
      @zacheryeckard3051 2 года назад

      @@h3lblad3 Unironically how cool would that be, though?

  • @Deadsphere
    @Deadsphere 2 года назад +61

    Pathfinder 1e did firearms decently well, the issue was when you could suddenly get a second attack in the form of Rapid Shot. This was of course only something (as far as I know) Gunslingers could take, and it usually came with Deadly Aim to boot. You could do both at the same time, Deadly Aim applied to pretty much both attacks (and if you took 2 levels in bard, you could "juggle" the guns, though this is just a fancy way of saying "dual weilding pistols", therefore giving you three attacks). Depending on level, doing both would put you at like a -2 or -4 to hit, but given the fact you weren't even targeting normal AC, but instead Touch AC, which is usually far lower and with the Gunslinger BABs, is nearly always a hit.
    It made Gunslingers really fucking OP, but I continue to think with some changes to the system, you could make it work a bit better.
    Thank you for this video, Zed. Been trying to figure out how to go about gun rules for a weird west campaign I've been trying to work on.

    • @RockmariomkiZX
      @RockmariomkiZX 2 года назад +4

      Well, Gunslinger as a class itself isn't that OP. But as a dip it's insane due to it not only giving gun proficiency bit also Dex to damage with guns. Its actual class features leave a bit to be desired, otherwise.

    • @Deadsphere
      @Deadsphere 2 года назад +1

      @@RockmariomkiZX With the right combination of classes (hence why I said bard, so you could make three attacks), you could make it really strong.

    • @Zedrinbot
      @Zedrinbot  2 года назад +18

      i feel like a lot of PF1's classes were built in a vacuum, and the unlimited free actions you can take can mean a lot of BS with certain combos if you start combining specific builds.
      PF1 is super fun for how many options you have but there's already so much customization with how it uses archetypes, traits, and feats that I feel that multiclassing (outside of like, prestige class requirements) gets to be way too much.
      Conversely, god I love PF2's archetype system so much.

    • @RockmariomkiZX
      @RockmariomkiZX 2 года назад +1

      @@Zedrinbot It mostly gets that way with purely martial classes (to an extent) and when Gestalt and other systems get involved. The vast majority of classes are highly discouraged from actually engaging from multiclassing due to features being put at strange levels that force a compromise for BAB, saves or similar. 3.5 had it far, far worse with multiclassing since WotC's writers at the time blatantly had no sense of design at all (including a few outright hating Sorcerer for no good reason and thinking literally useless classes were at all comparable to MtG's timmy cards)

    • @durk5331
      @durk5331 2 года назад

      @@Zedrinbot Feck 2e and its Featclassing >_< I never multiclassed more than 2 Classes, and balancing them properly was really fun, but feat classing in 2e really makes me feel like Im taking away from the one class to get the second... I know that's how it always worked but when its replacing class feats, the things I'd be getting with my levels in said class, instead of the levels themselves it just feels Entirely different and wrong to me.

  • @z3r070000
    @z3r070000 2 года назад +60

    I'mma be that guy and say this, as some one who has used the fire arms from the DMG, "Acktually" the Renaissance fire arms in the DMG are pretty fair and maybe even weak in comparison to other options. Sure they bump up one damage die and rival great axes and heavy crossbows, or eldritch blast, but they quickly fall behind in other ways.
    for example if you're a fighter or ranger, the musket or pistol might seem good at level one, but once you reach level 5 or get your first feat the one shot per turn musket falls behind in terms of just about everything including damage since you can make multiple attacks with bows, or take the crossbow expert feat which will give you a bonus action to fire another shot. sure you could take tasha's gunner feat, but you'll still find you're just behind crossbows most days, or have used that feat to take sharp shooter instead. do the math assuming you have a 18 dex for both and a hand crossbow and crossbow expert feat that's 3d6 + 12 or 21 damage on average which is on par if not more than musket with gunner feat 2d12 + 8 which is an average of 20 damage.
    In terms of a rogue which gets one attack anyway. it still falls behind crossbows in terms of range, which will often cost you advantage and sneak attack unless you're absolutely right on them, or take the sharpshooter feat, but even then its still much less than if you just used a crossbow or hand crossbow. This forces you to have closer positioning and can limit your hiding spaces.
    meanwhile the damage you gain is barely noticeable as you stack sneak attack on it. and 2d6+Mod+Mod is more damage than 1d12+mod no matter how you cut it. And you could even argue in terms of roleplay are rogue with a loud musket is much less sneaky. Not to mention switching from crossbow to musket or vice versa, you'll barely notice the difference in damage, but you will feel the range difference.
    Some other problems you might encounter if you live in the Sword Coast like Neverwinter or Waterdeep or storm giants thunder is that guns and ammo are illegal and/or expensive, making them a chore to hide and carry and a huge risk to use without alerting authorities.
    And another thing, while you might be able to retrieve arrows you fired after combat, or loot them off enemies, and easily buy them in town or make them, good luck doing any of that with a gun. If the DM is a nice guy, he'll let you know the recipe for gunpowder/smoke powder or have a black market selling it. But if you run out in the field you're done, and you'll be counting your shots the whole way.
    Honestly if you can go through the effort of character building, in character paying for, and combat positioning yourself in the right place to be in effective range to use your Renaissance pistol or musket you deserve the cool factor and next to negligible and mediocre damage increase if any.

    • @Synetik
      @Synetik 2 года назад +9

      Oddly enough I think monk's make the best use of firearms. With the tasha's optional stuff you can make firearms your dedicated weapon(monk weapon_ and as long a you use 1 ki you can attack with your monk weapon as a bonus action. You basically get the hand crossbow stuff with a higher damage die.

    • @Emohawk707
      @Emohawk707 2 года назад

      Have you ever run the modern weapons?
      I did for a whole campaign, and they were fun, but they were clearly busted since they made cantrips at low levels obsolete and made melee combat pointless (which, I guess is what guns did in real life as well).
      It's fine if everyone is into it, but I had players who also wanted to play modern day wizards, druids and barbarians and I didn't want to nerf the ranger and rogue who already had 2 dice firearms
      I feel like 1 die of damage is fine, I don't think a handgun is necessarily "more lethal" (per shot) than a crossbow, but when it comes to automatic weapons, I've been struggling to think of a way to include them, have them be fun, and not make them be the meta option
      (I think the burst fire mechanic in the DMG that represents automatic fire is pretty lame and my players agree with me. They spent the whole campaign taking single-shots from AKs and it wasn't "action movie" cool)

  • @beywheelzhater8930
    @beywheelzhater8930 2 года назад

    A simple balancing idea is that if you try and use a musket at point blank range, you inact an attack of opportunity since if you slowly pour gunpowder down a tube in front of a goblin, it WILL attack you. This way you can mimic reloading without having people sit down and spend half their time reloading in combat, all the while forcing people to use a ranged weapon as, well a ranged weapon instead of having someone barrel snuff a musket into someone's face. Could have the option to spend an attack action or something to reload and negate the next potential opportunity attack if you want

  • @Sillymonkey-or1zo
    @Sillymonkey-or1zo Год назад

    Fun idea for a gun that players could find or earn. An old, unassuming flintlock pistol that has a faint magical aura, but whatever magic it is cannot be revealed until it is used first. However, if the player play around with it for a bit, they can find out that it reloads a new shot every time the gun is successfuly spun in a circle in the players hand. (use a dexterity check every time this happens.) But, if the player fails the dex check, the gun does not reload and is unusable till the next turn. Base damage could be pretty normal, (think regular arrow from a bow), but if the player decides to do a trick while spinning the weapon, it gets a damage multiplier. However, this will cause the dex check to be much harder to pull off.

  • @Limrasson
    @Limrasson 2 года назад +7

    I have so many quirky ideas for kensei and the Gun Monk is one of them. It's also historically accurate.

  • @willhopkins8210
    @willhopkins8210 2 года назад +4

    I included a blunderbuss in my homebrew game once. Its "spread" basically allowed two adjacent enemies to get hit with a single attack, kind of like the Acid Splash cantrip or the Death Cleric's reaper ability.

  • @obsidiansiriusblackheart
    @obsidiansiriusblackheart 2 года назад +9

    Considering Spelljammer being just announced, I could DEFINITELY see buccaneer-syle combat, ie one pistol shot followed by some sword duelling

    • @SusCalvin
      @SusCalvin Год назад +1

      When the players get their hands on weapons with punishing reload times, that is how they start using them. A weapon that fires every second or third round or more will in practice have a firing rate of once every skirmish. The hobos and their foes shoot once, and are either legging it, clashing or overrun before anyone would have a chance to reload.
      In the old rules, the turn went missile, magic, melee/movement. Anyone with a readied missile weapon acts first. It doesn't matter if you rolled high initiative, you are still going to get shot if you run into three cops holding SMGs.
      Characters have carried braces of pistols. They will strap on one or two pairs of pistols and use them one after another during a running battle. The most ludicrous I have seen was a one-armed wizard with six pistols.
      The PCs currently have access to revolvers, pistols and automatic rifles etc. Even a flame thrower. Things are balanced because so does their opposition.

  • @Earthenfist
    @Earthenfist 2 года назад

    Well... Firearms were INITIALLY exotic because the WERE complicated clockwork mechanisms. Wheel-locks were around for a while before flint-locks, but they were expensive and difficult to get, while also being VERY reliable.
    Also, thanks for a good overview of the purpose of firearms in earlier history. A lot of people just don't seem to understand the paradigm of the early firearm.

  • @thebarefootadventurer8467
    @thebarefootadventurer8467 Год назад

    Funnily enough, almost every property you suggested I've come up with and compiled into a doc

  • @Skymoc4
    @Skymoc4 2 года назад +13

    Zedrin: _Creates Spider-Bayonetta_
    Me: *So spider have gun gun?*
    (Could also look cool on Spiser-girl ngl)

  • @CurlyHairedRogue
    @CurlyHairedRogue 2 года назад +92

    How I do spread on shotguns is that they get extra damage dice, and don’t suffer disadvantage at longer range,
    *BUT,* they have a shorter range than most firearms, and outside of their normal range, within their long range, they deal half damage dice, even on crits.
    Another interesting feature I add is that at long range, the wielder can target 2 creatures standing side by side, relative to the shooter, and attack both at the same time.

    • @darienb1127
      @darienb1127 2 года назад +8

      the Grim Hollow guide has an interested way of doing it, where it's actually a DC save other creatures have to make.

    • @phelps6205
      @phelps6205 2 года назад +2

      At that point, just make it a damage cone effect like burning hands, and like the guy above suggested, the enemy makes a dex save.

    • @CurlyHairedRogue
      @CurlyHairedRogue 2 года назад +4

      @@phelps6205 n-no, I think not. A cone effect is as wide as it is long, and that’s not what I’m aiming for. I’m going for a little bit of spread at long range, not absurd spread at even the closest range.
      If I wanted the cone, I’d make it a cone.

    • @thomastruant8837
      @thomastruant8837 2 года назад

      use 5 balls with a die for each one and make it a higher roll to hit the farther they are, birdshot would just be a cone and slugs would count as a bigger bullet

    • @anonymouspotato7538
      @anonymouspotato7538 2 года назад

      @@CurlyHairedRogue Well that's just silly, they got rid of narrow cones in 5e?

  • @Aerowarrier
    @Aerowarrier 2 года назад +21

    I like how guns are done in Grim Hollow, especially with the highwayman subclass for rogues that’s designed around riding a horse with rifles which is super cool

  • @arsenovadragonov
    @arsenovadragonov 2 года назад +1

    my favorite version of guns that ive used was basically crossbows but they used enchanted ammo. an artificer could imbue little crystal shards with a spell, and that spell would be cast on the target of the projectile. kinda made the guns into even more of a fancy wand, but my party of all martial classes enjoyed the ability to save spells for moments of need. when a scenario came together for them and they had just what they needed, they really got into it.

    • @SusCalvin
      @SusCalvin Год назад

      Enchanted ammo is standard. You can definitely give your PCs some musketballs +2 here and there. It's a nice little magic consumable, same as scrolls and potions.

  • @jacobrispoli4351
    @jacobrispoli4351 11 месяцев назад

    Just the right attention span. You did great, and love the ideas.

  • @johnathanaltizer3333
    @johnathanaltizer3333 2 года назад +42

    Here’s an idea: make reloading have concentration! This works especially well with gunpowder guns, as you’d have to go through the whole rigmarole of pouring powder, putting in the bullet, tamping, etc.

  • @HackMcMack
    @HackMcMack 2 года назад +6

    This was an excellent video, i only wish it had come out earlier in my DMing career so I wouldn't have had so many missteps implementing guns into my own games before arriving at some of these ideas! What ended up working for my group is using firearm rules from the 3rd party books by Mage Hand Press for our wild west/turn of the century era game! I find it interesting that a lot of their ideas are the same as ones you propose here (specifically not adding ability mod to damage but guns all deal an extra die, and shotguns doing upgraded dice of damage at point blank!)

  • @GinLuna
    @GinLuna 2 года назад +14

    I like the guns in 5e, and implement them into all of my campaigns. Having ranged enemies that can murk players quickly can make the combat very dynamic and tense so long as you properly implement cover

  • @SchwarzerWolf1000
    @SchwarzerWolf1000 3 месяца назад

    Landsknecht with pike and shot: come at me you filthy calvary!!!

  • @Kuhmuhnistische_Partei
    @Kuhmuhnistische_Partei 11 месяцев назад

    The Tannenbergbüchse is a medieval handcannon which was found in the ruins of a castle that collapsed 1399. The gun was invented and used before that. At the time of the late medieval age there were entire artillery teams and handcannons were a common alternative to crossbows (like literally, there were often rules what kind of weapons the citizens of a city for example or the members of a knights lance/gleve had to own and crossbows and handcannons were usually listed as interchangeable). And I personally would put DnD more in a similar-to-16th century setting or even later. Rapiers weren't really used much (although they existed since the 1450s) during the medieval age and the way most things (empires, political power, economy, socioeconomics ect) work in DnD are really not medieval but very clearly early modern. And in the 16th and 17th century you had dudes in plate armor fighting with multiple pistols and guns with quite complicated mechanism (wheellock and matchlock ect.) and even early revolvers .

  • @justas423
    @justas423 2 года назад +53

    11:46 Misfire actually outweighs the benefits of Deadly, despite both of them being 1/20 chances,.since you get +dX damage if you score a crit, but if you score a misfire then you miss out on damage AND the potential bonus damage. It also aggressively cuts off your actions in the same way multi-turn reloads do.

    • @Zedrinbot
      @Zedrinbot  2 года назад +13

      Yeah, that's intentional.
      If fixing a jam takes an attack, at base, it's a small difference. You give up roughly 1 attack per 1 critical hit you get, in exchange for that crit having one extra die. You'd be short a bit average damage per round, which you can actually tool from a designer standpoint (use that to justify a slightly higher damage die, for instance). I like using 'attack' for this since it prevents characters like fighters from getting progressively worse the more attacks they can make in a round, and keeps the scaling even.
      Misfire would hurt more if you have any external forms of damage bonuses, though you can also carry a backup gun to sidestep the matter entirely, and there are a few ways to prevent rolling nat 1's (e.g. halfling luck, advantage, etc.) that would look attractive for players; but these all are factoring in external factors too.
      Plus, you could make it a feature for a gun-focused subclass, giving them a means to rapidly clear a weapon jam in exchange for a resource. (Like how Pathfinder does it for gunslingers.)

  • @loganfrandrup6590
    @loganfrandrup6590 2 года назад +15

    Personally, I like how Heavy Arm's hombrew Gunslinger dose their guns, where they can act as normal weapons with a bit more kick with 1d6, 1d8, or 1d10 damage, but they all have the Loud properite which makes a loud sound that can be heard from 300ft away, so it's near imposible to make a stealthy kill with them unless you go full sniper with it. I like it becuase it has a good middle ground where it feels like it's exotic and powerful, but still feeling like it fits with the other weapons. Also shotguns in that game actually deal 1d12 instead of 1d10 if you hit a target from 10ft away making for some fun midline shooting.
    Also, really sorry, that you are just playing dnd becuase that is what everyone else is play. Do feel free to actually try and find groups that play the game you want, or try and introduce some new players. I for one would be curious to see what you preffer to play.

    • @Zedrinbot
      @Zedrinbot  2 года назад +1

      don't listen to animated zed he gets to play Lancer and Pathfinder 1 and 2 all he wants

  • @teamcyeborg
    @teamcyeborg Год назад +1

    I always let my players reflavor crossbows as guns, then I look away for five seconds and I have AT LEAST two cowboys in the party

    • @teamcyeborg
      @teamcyeborg Год назад +1

      (Also, eldrich blast. I CAST GUN)

  • @Quincy_Morris
    @Quincy_Morris Год назад

    Guns were just real magic. Limited magic wands that required a short rest to recharge. They fit the setting perfectly, after all most of what we think comes from the Middle Ages actualky comes from the Renaissance era when guns were starting to hit it big.

  • @thelonelypilot
    @thelonelypilot 2 года назад +34

    I think the best way to balance guns would be to:
    Make them hybrid weapons, like the Polish Cavalry shotgun-axe.
    Remove any stealth property.
    Deal heavier damage than a bow or crossbow, but lack the ability to be enchanted.
    Use early breachloading tech (no auto) and struggle against heavy armor.

    • @gryphonbotha1880
      @gryphonbotha1880 2 года назад

      Real firearms were one of the few reliable ways to punch through heavy armour, even in the early days. Their weakness was that they could only do this from relatively close range. A bow or crossbow had only a tenth of the kinetic energy, but could carry it much further, allowing it to stay lethal at longer ranges against less armoured targets.
      Firearms lost their energy quickly but, unlike arrows which would just bounce off well-made plate, the bullets would go right through at short distances.

  • @Superbug-tf8zy
    @Superbug-tf8zy 2 года назад +112

    "Any game that incorporate firearms goes against everything dnd stands for"
    I'm sorry sir, have you heard of the artificer artillerist class with the tiny size eldritch cannon, WHICH IS LITERALLY A GUN.

    • @KoishiVibin
      @KoishiVibin 2 года назад +5

      Me creating powered armor:

    • @insertnamehere916
      @insertnamehere916 Год назад +1

      There are legit people who say that Artificer itself was a mistake that should have never happened
      I say sic em F-160

  • @MintyVoid
    @MintyVoid 2 года назад +14

    yo seriously feel 100% platonically parasocially proud of you that you finished this despite having that good ol executive dysfunction. I know how painful it can be to get anything done, let alone something that's then recorded,video edited,posted online, and maybe even sharing it on social media. I know that any one of those steps or in between or even before can halt progress indefinitely and It's inspiring and awesome that you were able to work through it all and post this.

  • @Khindrex
    @Khindrex 2 года назад

    I have a postapocalyptic-style game, where firearms are allowed, the rule there is that they do a little bit more damage and range than their non-firearm counterparts, but need to be reloaded. You can use one of your attacks or your bonus-action to reload though. Makes it much more interactive than just losing an action every few turns.

  • @bonzwah1
    @bonzwah1 2 года назад

    I did a sci-fi space campaign where all I did was rename bows and crossbows and removed the loading properties from the crossbows. I then also added a custom "rapid fire" property to the bows that allowed them to be fired again as a bonus action. It's funny how little needed to be done to put blasters in my game.
    -
    it ended up playing out very well too. blasters felt fair but also made their presence known in the game due to the rapid fire property making low level enemies more dangerous.

  • @SomeBody08150
    @SomeBody08150 2 года назад +6

    This was a good an nuanced take.
    I've Seen multiple GMs and Players to try and brew it with similar added weapon properties and so far it seemed to be a Hit for the Players.
    Also in that Last comment about liking 5e is an absolut mood.

  • @VechsDavion
    @VechsDavion 2 года назад +18

    18:27 A simple way to do Touch AC in 5e (but not perfect...) "If the target is wearing medium armor, heavy armor, or using a shield, you have a +3 bonus to the attack roll with this weapon."
    This is... "Touch-lite" AC?

    • @Palitin
      @Palitin 2 года назад

      Or just add touch ac because as the DM you are practically god of your world and bend reality to your will and just do a hot take on their current dex ac modifier +full mod for light armor up to +3 for medium and no bonus for heavy armor if I'm not mistaken. Its a little more complicated but if you're playing with an experienced group they should understand.

    • @Zedrinbot
      @Zedrinbot  2 года назад +4

      That isn't touch ac though. If their armor is 11+dex then suddenly that is significantly more accurate than touch ac.
      Touch ac is literally just 10+dex mod, but it doesn't work in 5es bounded accuracy system and is more skewed than in pf or 3.5

    • @VechsDavion
      @VechsDavion 2 года назад

      @@Zedrinbot how is AC going to be that low with medium armor?

    • @Zedrinbot
      @Zedrinbot  2 года назад

      ​@@VechsDavion If a weapon has a +3 bonus against a target, that technically is the equivalent of reducing the target's AC by 3, for accuracy purposes. If your bonus is normally +6 against a target AC of 16, you need to roll a 10. A +3 bonus, or if the AC is 13, means you only need to roll a 7.
      Given the proposal you made, anything with less than 13+dex for their AC calculation is now more likely to be hit than if they weren't wearing armor at all.
      Unarmored AC is 10+dex. If someone is wearing leather armor, their AC is 11+dex. With your proposal, leather armor is for some reason 8+dex against a gun, WORSE than what technically would be touch AC.
      This is a huge reason why 5e's philosophy for design is "don't add arbitrary incremental bonuses," and is why I stressed that in the section on weapon properties, *especially* when it comes to AC / to-hit.

    • @brendenhawley2225
      @brendenhawley2225 2 года назад

      @@Zedrinbot What medium armor leaves ac that low?

  • @comandantegorrion7271
    @comandantegorrion7271 2 года назад +6

    I think my favorite DND campaign I’ve taken part in in the last few years was one set in approximately the early to mid 1500s, so the initial colonization of the New World, where I played a fire Genasi Cavalier fighter from the setting’s equivalent of France, flavored as a disgraced cuirassier, so medium armor, with a DM‘s guide musket with pistol range, a broadsword (a long sword without the versatile tag), and my mount was a wingless griffin (The DM stole a lot of stuff from Warhammer fantasy). We realize that the DM had forgotten to make a setting equivalent of Spain, so we all just sort of agreed that we were going to head down to fantasy Central/South America and kick it with the Yuan-ti and lizardmen. It was very open world, lots of focus on exploring and survival, unfortunately it ended up falling apart because there was only myself and one other player who could consistently make it to sessions, so it was just us two and a rotating cast of secondary players, which wasn’t helped by the fact that the DM was a new DM and would OK basically every homebrew out in front of him, and, at a few points I had to actually tell him to tone down some of the homebrew gear that he was giving us.

  • @somerandomyoutuber3509
    @somerandomyoutuber3509 11 месяцев назад +1

    What I do for shotguns is I have a “kobold shotgun,” which just sends out a blast of fire in that “shotgun cone,” instead of using bullets. It uses only gunpowder (or in my campaign, spark dust), and large amounts of it, making it expensive to use.

  • @serban031
    @serban031 2 года назад

    "Firearms don't belong in fantasy."
    Meanwhile, Pillars of Eternity kicking all the ass... :D

  • @TheIronArmenianakaGIHaigs
    @TheIronArmenianakaGIHaigs 2 года назад +11

    0:42 can you release this art on your Twitter? :3

    • @Zedrinbot
      @Zedrinbot  2 года назад +5

      ah i knew i was forgetting something

  • @timothymclean
    @timothymclean 2 года назад +16

    4:30: The one thing I'd add for a "realistic flintlock" feeling would be rules for using the gun itself as a melee weapon. It obviously wouldn't be as good as a magic sword, but they should make decent clubs (or shortspears, if you have a bayonet).

    • @Specter_1125
      @Specter_1125 Год назад

      Clubbing your musket was part of British training.

    • @SusCalvin
      @SusCalvin Год назад +1

      We make it simple. If something is shaped like a club and sturdy like a club you use it like a club. Characters can take a baseball bat or a piece of rebar and use as a club.
      I might make a ruling if they want to use a weapon with carefully aligned optics as a club. A scope is not going to stay aligned if you swing your rifle as a club.

  • @EinsamPibroch278
    @EinsamPibroch278 2 года назад +4

    When I introduce guns in my campaign, guns are considered incredibly rare magical artifacts that require complex rituals to craft ammo and parts.
    For example, bullets need to be individually blessed with fire magic for propulsion, plus any additional elemental buffs you want for the enemy you're facing.
    If your magic can't hold your gun together, the gun is basically a pipe bomb unless professionally serviced by a Gunsmith.
    Things like that.
    Once all these requisites are met, the payoff of going full-auto in a shooting spree is definitely worth it.

  • @frankieramos1748
    @frankieramos1748 2 года назад

    I love the firearms discourse in the community because I’m just sat here as the DM working on my thieves guild boss NPC with a magic eyepatch and a 6 shooter he got from another dimension that is now magic because he got his wizard friend to enchant it.
    As the DMG Listings go I don’t see much of a problem especially if guns are rare then ammo is going to be even rarer and of more expensive so it’s gonna drain their resources or just be unavailable. Also proficiency is going to be hard to come by. And if guns are so common in your setting then guns will also be used against your players so then not being ridiculously deadly is a good thing. The DMG has a nice balance between them being deadly and strong vs not being a cheap trick your DM pulls out and just says bang you’re dead

  • @curtismorgan613
    @curtismorgan613 2 года назад

    Cool vid!!! I’m starting a new campaign tomorrow called Curse of the Wampus Cat, it’s set in a fantasy version of Appalachia guns will be present. I went with high cost to acquire in a poor area as a limiting factor and chose high damage die and multi turn reload, I like the idea of a once per combat action but I want to add a bit more realism and flavor to it. I home brewed 8 guns from a pepper box that deals 3d4 +2 in a 10 cone
    with disadvantage on targets beyond 5 feet that costs 300gp, to a double barrel buffalo gun with a range of 150/300 that deals 4d10+8+2xdex, and costs 15,000gp Firing the gun takes a while action to avoid playing with machine guns. Thanks for uploading!

  • @goreobsessed2308
    @goreobsessed2308 2 года назад +6

    I've been on both sides of this argument. You've got to give em a good niche my favorite was my buddies game with muzzleloading muskets their range was less than a crossbow but they did 1d20 damage and took 2 rounds to reload. I liked the huge damage range with short range

  • @Twisted_Logic
    @Twisted_Logic 2 года назад +12

    All this seems pretty reasonable. Something I'd like to add to the conversation is the use of enchanting on firearms. Something I never hear about, but would 1000% be possible with magic is a powderless firearm. Just pull the trigger and a rune or something explodes in the chamber, allowing you to skip arguably the most time consuming part of the loading process. Let's say you're using the system towards the end where loading your weapon eats your movement because you've gotta stop to put the powder in. With the magical powderless firearm you could cut that down to a bonus action to ram a ball in, allowing you to move, load, and fire in the same turn, making you much more of a threat to mobile enemies. Seems like it would make for a pretty cool and flavorful piece of loot for a musketeer/gunslinger when they start falling behind in the party's action economy.

    • @Sillymonkey-or1zo
      @Sillymonkey-or1zo Год назад +4

      Fun idea for a gun that players could find or earn. An old, unassuming flintlock pistol that has a faint magical aura, that reveals that it reloads a new shot every time the gun is successfuly spun in a circle in the players hand. (use a dexterity check every time this happens.) But, if the player fails the dex check, the gun does not reload and is unusable till the next turn. Base damage could be pretty normal, (think regular arrow from a bow), but if the player decides to do a trick while spinning the weapon, it gets a damage multiplier. However, this will cause the dex check to be much harder to pull off.

  • @biasmushroom6311
    @biasmushroom6311 2 года назад +7

    I like the idea of a soft firearm basically being basically another version of bows, crossbows and other ranged weapons. So it doesn’t affect balance to much or terrifying PCs that they can get one shot by a lv1 commoner, but are a threat that needs to be considered carefully

  • @aka_pcfx
    @aka_pcfx 11 месяцев назад

    It's been a while, but here's an idea i just had:
    Make guns reload passively, but it's concentration, so you don't get to have spells and guns, and if you get hit you might not get the reload done for your next turn

  • @ryan_0000
    @ryan_0000 11 месяцев назад

    I can just imagine a group at a boss fight, the gun user goes, “I got this,” then runs up to the enemy, misses their shots and dies

  • @_fedmar_
    @_fedmar_ Год назад +8

    Idea for the reload: To reload a firerm (eg musket) a character has to expend all their movement and a bonus action, and all attacks against them have advantage until the start of their next turn.