I've wrestled over our definition of worship for years, not being educated as these two are, I first came to believe it was something different because of the Word of first mention principle, it's when Abraham was going up the mount to sacrifice his son, he told his servants stay here, me and the lad are going up to worship, he wasn't lying he was going in obedience to perform and act unto God. For me way back in the 90s I seen biblical worship as obedience unto God. This discussion brings more clarity after all these years thank you two.
There's nothing wrong with the church coming to you. :-) The place isn't important, but meeting for mutual support, encouragement, and discipleship is. It sounds like that is what you are doing. May God bless your gatherings.
The Church is not about religious activities, but a relationship with God and His creation! To love God and love others is the sole purpose for why He created us in His image and likeness!
Yes, well said! I just want to add that other human beings are also part of that creation, and we play an important role in their edification, and they in ours. This notion is clearly reflected in the scriptures.
100% agree. Sadly most church meetings seem a waste of time. I'm hearing: ongoing reformation, discipleship & accountability - one with another. And Tom what a blessing that you speak of NOT tearing down people and systems but rather being the bearers of something better, based on unfolding (revealed, discovered, sought for) scriptural truths. OK got it, not condemning, but to edify! I'll go on to Tom's # 6.
One of the reasons why the current churches have gone wrong is mixing the activities of the old testament with those of the new testament hence they come up with a blend of activities.
Tom, God is using you in HIS TIME! What a blessing covid was to bring such clarity to us now and you are part of this. It is like HE is bringing us together in A FRESH and RIGHT way….. Thank you, thank you, thank you!
Hey Eddie, Glad to catch your video , I too happened upon Tom, I've really enjoyed listening to him, I think he has great ideas as to how we should hear from one another. If we don't hear differing opinions how can we shape discernment. I have a view unlike others that I'm sharing. My study reveals that Paul's ministry is in two parts Now and Then as 1st Corinthians 13;12 informs us. I'm on fb blogging for Jesus, I've been sharing this fir about 5 years now as God has revealed. Lord bless you brother
Actually (6:02) the purpose is to give people "head knowledge" so they can overcome objections when out trying to persuade people to become Christians ... or at least church members. Much of my church experience was academic pursuit, and I knew a lot about the Bible. I could play Bible trivia games and prevail. But there was little character development.
It only starts with head knowledge and then is supposed to trickle down into heart knowledge. Digging deeper and asking questions and discovering possible answers. There is a bunch of Bible stuff that is not actually on target that gets passed down from teacher to student. But by asking ourselves "Is that REALLY what happened?" Do I believe it just b/c my teacher in seminary said it? OR is the Bible saying something more profound? Having exchanges with other believers and going back over the scriptures in private study is when things can get really electrifying! (and fun!)
I just consulted my Strong's Concordance and I think I counted 8 different Greek words translated "worship" in the AV. Wow! Really?? I'll have to do my own deep dive on these and see if this usage of "worship" is justified for all these translations.
Outstanding! This is the Berean attitude at work (Acts 17:11). I encourage you NOT to take my, or Dr. Wadsworth's, word for this. Instead, confirm for yourself that what was said is true. This is the way.
The Apostle Paul was emphatic. He didn't want people going back to the old system with its rules and regulations. It was hard indeed for the Jews who believed that Jesus was the Messiah to break away from that thinking. Then, there were gentiles who had embraced Judaism that were being told they had to keep the law and the other rituals. And then there were pagan converts among the Greeks and Romans (and other people groups). Church buildings keep getting bigger and bigger and become more elaborate. It's been said that the devil can't un-do the work of Christ in a believer, but he CAN prevent believers from growing and maturing, and that right there has weakened the church primarily in the West and U.S. in my humble view.
Interesting. Are you suggesting that the apostles, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, deliberately distanced themselves from temple practices-what we often refer to as "worship"-to reshape the disciples' mindset for the New Testament era? If so, that is an astute observation that I had not considered.
@@r4e I think something like that did happen, and not only via the Holy Spirit, but directly from the presence and spiritual power and instruction of Jesus, too. As you well know, the Pentateuch is full of extreme and elaborately detailed rules and regulations for life. In my recent readings of scripture, I've often marveled at the lengths God went to in order to guide his people, and I've asked myself again and again, why, why so much exacting detail in temple worship and daily life? Obviously, by the time of Jesus, the spiritual value of temple worship was waning, and change was on the way. I've also marveled at Jesus' radically different teachings which seemed to undo (or reorient or redirect?) a great many of these practices, which, of course, confounded the orthodox Jewish authorities.
@@r4e I wish people would go back and read their Bibles. Along with that, they need to consult some Bible helps, concordances, dictionaries, and commentaries, including study of the customs and manners of Biblical and Greco-Roman culture. There are some excellent dictionaries, commentaries, and other books that cover this stuff in great detail. I think this is where a LOT of Christians get mixed up and confused.
I see a like for the video, maybe that one is yours. Thank you. I am persuaded that Tom's research and conclusions are exactly correct. In fact, I had reached some of the same conclusions years ago and I was gratified that his extensive research validated my own conclusions. Let's pray his research is widely disseminated.
I am with you- I have felt for years the church building scenario doesn’t fit. For one thing it is a burden to people financially to have to pay a mortgage for a building that is rarely used.
Yes ... and finally fighting over the property ... filing court cases against each other ... it's all happening in India .... for the last 15 years the Church gathers in our home ...
@@wendywalker35 An elder at my former church strongly agrees with you, here. He always felt that the building took too much energy and funds. Too much time over city code requirements, landscaping, roof repair, traffic control (for mega churches) etc. Instead, a house church would save up tithes and offerings to help members in time of need. Maybe someone lost a job and needs help temporarily to pay electric bill, maybe another member needs a minor car repair. Maybe someone else needs a minor home repair. And of course we would all be able to jump in and help where we are gifted. And such is the WITNESS to the lost! In the book of Acts, the unbelievers said of the Christians..."Look at how they love each other!" It wasn't how they helped the lost...it was how they helped each other! And sacrificed for each other.
Some people need the prayers/friendsjip of Christians - it brings them strength and courage. But not churches are alike nor do all churches teach Biblical truth. Certainly, there are legitimate complaints about some church services. I have left churches when they became nightclubs.By that I mean; when I was in my early twenty’s I was born again and the first thing I said was Hallelujah, I don’t have to go to night clubs anymore!!! I always hated them - they are places of desperation and sin ;where men are trying to pick up women. So, fast track , to today, I walk into a non-denominational church that has come into town and what do I see : there are strobe lights, there is rock music with people up shaking their booty, there are smoke pots, Dim lights, silly, non-reverential songs. my family and myself wanted no part of this confused church. It was like going back to my pre-born again Friday nights, which I hated back then. WHY, would anyone think this is pleasing to God? This is sooo many of today’s churches, saying they are CHRISTIAN but in reality, are only quasi-Christian in my opinion.
It's challenging to show people that Jesus's way is better when what we offer them is no different from what they can find in the world. What happens in the assembly should appeal to the inner man, not our fleshly senses.
Yep. In a word, it's "worshiptainment" that you are referring to, and it's a sorry irreverent mess unworthy of real Christians. Matthew Everhard has published a book with that title.
Dallas Willard observes that we have developed a form of Christianity that separates being a Christian from being a disciple. Your presentation emphasizes the importance of making disciples, though you never use the term. I shared a bit of the presentation with my wife. Her concern was that if we lose a lot of the “form“ of current church services and move towards lots of small group discussions then we risk the danger of cultic leaders rising, or unorthodox teachings taking root. I thought maybe that’s why Paul had to write all those letters back to churches that were getting off track . How do you maintain orthodoxy?
I wasn’t familiar with Dallas Willard's observation, but he expressed it very well. In our video, we discussed spiritual edification at length. Personally, I see discipleship and spiritual edification as nearly synonymous (I suspect youtube.com/@tomwadsworth would agree). While we may not have explicitly mentioned discipleship in the video, the concepts of edification and discipleship overlap so much that speaking of one inherently suggests the other (or so it seems to me). As for orthodoxy, truth be told, the historical church model has never been effective at preserving doctrinal purity. Orthodoxy isn't maintained through organizational or hierarchical structures. Instead, it comes through cultivating biblical literacy, transparent leadership, and a culture of discipleship where sound doctrine is passed relationally. The early church demonstrates that intimate gatherings can be deeply orthodox when there's mutual accountability, scriptural understanding, and a commitment to spiritual growth. Paul's letters show that theological drift happens in all church models; the antidote is creating communities where truth is lovingly examined and deeply internalized. In short, heresy can arise from any church model.
I agree with the explanation given by @r4e. There are many "celebrity" pastors with mega churches who are way off course. They do not appreciate correction either! Small groups shouldn't have a single "leader" as it were...but have elders (plural) and a few others who are mature believers and solid teachers of the Word. All should be humble and open to correction. I've been a part of a few such groups over the years that were absolutely wonderful! They just didn't endure and eventually would dissolve for one reason or another...sometimes it was people moving, interference with work or an illness or family matter. It goes strong for awhile, and then drops off. But very meaningful, intimate gatherings that everyone very much looked forward to. By comparison, how many people do you suppose actually look forward to going to church?
See Expositor's Bible Commentary (@ eSword): 1 Corinthians 14:1-40-SPIRITUAL GIFTS AND PUBLIC WORSHIP: "No countenance can be found in this chapter to the idea that worship should exclude preaching and become the sole purpose of the assembling together of Christian people. Some temperaments incline towards worship, but resent being preached to or instructed. The reverential and serious feelings which are quickened into life by devotional forms of prayer may be scattered by the buffoonery or ineptitudes of the preacher. Exasperation, unbelief, contempt, in the mind of the hearer may be the only results achieved by some sermons. It may occasionally occur to us that the Christian world would be very much the better of some years of silence, and that results which have not been reached by floods of preaching might be attained if these floods were allowed to ebb and a period of quiet and repose succeed. Unquestionably there is a danger at present of leading men to suppose that religion is a thing which must be ceaselessly talked about, and which perhaps chiefly consists of talk, so that if one only hears enough, and has the right opinions, he may accept himself as a religious person. But it is one thing to say that there is at present too much preaching or too careless and unequal a distribution of preaching, and quite another thing to say there should be none."
The purpose of the Mass is to receive the Eucharist - John 6 we are commanded to feast on the body and blood of Jesus “lest we have no life in us”. Only found at the Catholic Church. ⛪️ God bless you! Praying for the conversion of the whole world 🌎 to the Catholic Church ⛪️
I believe edification is best used as the context of the word would be and Corinthians 13;10 in this verse the term should probably mean instruction, because it's either edification or destruction the idea of building up is just a matter of loving one another, but the importance of understanding Paul's gospel is key. The example Paul gives is this , 2nd Corinthians 4;3 if our gospel be hidden it is hidden to the lost, the only time the word lost appears in Paul's gospel. What gospel speaks of the lost, Luke , even the word gospel doesn't appear in Luke's gospel, no heirs are mentioned in Luke either, the only time heir is mentioned in mark or Matthew they killed him, so understanding that Paul's gospel is exclusive to heirs should be understood. Lord bless, I'm not trying to blow up your comment box, I'm just saying , Paul has a message that hasn't been heard.
Great observation. One that is often missed when looking at the church of the NT. Many were spiritually gifted. As such, they actually could edify/build up one another beyond just studying the Scriptures. This is another area we must seek growth in.
Hey, brother Lawrence. Thank you for your fantastic interview with Tom. A have a question: did you find his dissertation online for free or did you have to pay for it? If it is free, where can I find it?
I wasn't able to find it online. I contacted Tom through his website asking for a copy and he sent it to me. If you contact him I bet he'll send you a copy. www.tomwadsworth.com/contact
I myself studied the Bible in both the Old and Testament about the practice of worship by the brlievers. I found out in the Old Testament that most of the word worship to God was experienced by individuals not by group. In the New Testament, Jesus did not command the disciples or the people whom He preached to go to the temple or a certain place to worship God. Not even Paul.
The thing I disapprove from this message is: everything has to be done for the edification of the saints. Yes, but where does it say that this is the only reason for gathering? So we sing praises to edify others and not first of all to glorify God? So we pray to edify others and not first of all to be heard in heaven ?? Man cannot become the centre of the gathering of the saints. Christ has to be the centre! We are edified to be more like Christ. We contemplate Christ's glory as we gather, and we are transformed in His image. The church is the household of God, the body of Christ, and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit first! Apart from this, it's clear that church building model without house churches is limited, but big gatherings have their place. Do you imagine that Paul went house to house to preach to small groups of 20 people in a town like Ephesus where there were thousands of believers and never gathered them together? Or how did the apostles coordinate the daily distribution of food to the widows if there was no organised system of knowing who is who? Small house churches without coordination and oversight will only result in heresies.
The early church did meet in homes (e.g., Acts 2:46, 12:12; Rom 16:5; 1 Cor 16:19; Phil 1:2; Col 4:15), but they also gathered as larger groups, like in Solomon’s Colonnade (Acts 5:12). Both formats had their place. As for heresy, the issue isn’t the size of the gathering but the need for sound teaching and strong leadership. Paul emphasized the role of elders and overseers in protecting the church from false teaching (Acts 20:28-30, Titus 1:9). Even larger assemblies aren’t immune to heresy, as we see in Paul’s letters to entire churches (e.g., Galatians, Corinthians), where false doctrine had spread despite oversight. Smaller gatherings allow for more personal accountability and discipleship, which are vital for spiritual growth (Hebrews 10:24-25). With godly leadership and unity in Christ, both small and large assemblies can remain faithful to God’s truth.
I'm 30 mins in and there's no mentuon of what meetings did consist of yet.... surely that's a big omission.... so do I keep listening in the hope that it does or forget it! Eg I don't really care about discussing the GREEK words but how we should behave at church. ????
I don't believe the New Testament teaches replacement theology. Instead, the church has joined Israel. Romans 11 illustrates this with the grafting of wild olive branches into the cultivated tree of Israel. The church is now part of Israel, not a replacement.
if the gathering of the saints is solely for the edification of the saints and nothing else, what do you say about Acts 13:1-2, that clearly says these servants of God (includong Paul) had gathered to worship the Lord (or to minister to the Lord, as translated in order versions like KJV)? How can the gathering of the saints be man-centered and not God-centered?
Thank you for your comment! It’s clear that you have given this some thought. Acts 13:2 highlights a common challenge with many English Bible translations. Modern readers often bring two assumptions to this verse. First, the Greek word leitourgeo is translated as “worshiping” in some versions, but is this accurate? If you compare translations (KJV, NKJV, ASV, NASB, HCSB, NET, etc.), most use “serving” or “ministering” instead. The term leitourgeo specifically refers to priestly service, not worship in the way we commonly think of it today. What service were the five prophets and teachers mentioned in verse 1 performing? The text indicates they were fasting and praying as part of the commissioning of Barnabas and Saul to share the good news with the Gentiles. While we might assume they had gathered for worship, the text doesn’t explicitly say that. Second, there’s an assumption that this was an assembly of the church at Antioch. However, verse 1 simply states that the church had prophets and teachers, naming five of them. It does not suggest that the church was assembled for worship, but rather emphasizes that these individuals were engaged in a specific act of service. The English word “worship” is too broad. As Dr. Wadsworth aptly points out: “[When] an English Bible says that someone ‘worshiped,’ what did that person do? Did they offer a prayer or a song? Did they feel a sense of reverence? When a Bible verse says that someone ‘paid homage,’ what exactly constitutes ‘homage?’ Did the person present a gift? Did they offer a sacrifice? Did they say certain words? The reader does not know.” To fully understand what’s happening in the text, it’s crucial to explore the underlying Greek words and their meanings. Tools like a Strong’s concordance and a good Bible dictionary are invaluable for this kind of study. Regarding the claim that the gathering is “man-centered,” the New Testament authors provide a different perspective. They emphasize that the primary purpose of Christian assemblies is mutual edification (1 Corinthians 14; Hebrews 10:24-25). God understands our need for encouragement and strength from one another. When we gather for the reason God has appointed, we honor Him by doing what He desires. This is not to say that our assemblies lack a vertical component-there certainly is one. However, it is not presented as the main purpose. According to the New Testament, the primary goal of Christian gatherings is the spiritual growth and edification of the church.
How is this brother in high demand since the overwhelming numbers of believers think is not good for the “church”? Some would accuse this thinking as not being submissive to the church or pastor shepherd. I guess the ring of truth draws people in. Two of us elders left the institutionalized church because freedom was restricted by the pastor. The other elders circled the wagons around the “anointed” one man show and developed an authoritative system that was building a legalistic guilt based, performance driven gospel which was not good news. The organized church method is a priest that stands above all others. Little to know interaction. In charismatic circles they use a shepherd method but it’s basically the same priest thing. Home churches have their own challenges but at least there is fellowship and shared leadership. After we left the organized church the scales started falling off and we saw how the congregation was frozen in place under the pastor.
As far as the word worship goes. I think that God has given us the 1611 kjv, it has been proven that it supersedes the Hebrew and the Greek I point you to Truth in Christ on utube, probably the most incredible discover about how the kjv is God's undefiled word made perfect. It not anything I would argue after watching and testing Brandon's research.
What you are talking about is the true worship though. Unlike the “worship” they call in “church” theres a difference. My mom for example believes singing gospel songs in “church” is the actual “worship”. That is not true. Worship is done in the Spirit as it says in John 4. Therefore worship can be done everywhere.
Jesus gave to the Apostles the Authority to preach & teach the truth. Does Authority, therefore, matter to be able to preach & teach the truth, and to ensure that it continues that the preaching and teaching is done correctly should not that Authority be passed on by those who had/have the Authority to preach and teach the truth or can anyone preach & teach, whatever they like without that Authority??? Would anyone allow someone to teach their children if that person has no authority to teach children??? Why is this so difficult to understand.
See: Expositor's Bible Commentary: 1 Corinthians 14:1-40; SPIRITUAL GIFTS AND PUBLIC WORSHIP (source: e-Sword): We lose much of what would interest and much that would edify by enjoining silence upon the membership of the Church. And yet, as Paul observes, there was much to be desired in those Corinthian services. Had there been some authorised official presiding over them, the abuses of which this letter speaks could not have arisen. To appeal to this chapter or to any part of this letter in proof that there should be no distinction between clergy and laity would be very bad policy. It is indeed obvious that at this time there were neither elders nor deacons, bishops nor rulers of any kind, in the Church of Corinth; but then it is quite as obvious that there was great need of them, and that the want of them had given rise to some scandalous abuses and to much disorder. The ideal condition would be one in which authority should be lodged in certain elected office bearers, while the faculty and gift of each member in some way contributed to the good of the whole Church. In most Churches of our own day, efforts are made to utilise the Christian energies of their membership in those various charitable works which are so necessary and so abundant. But probably we should all be the better of a much freer ventilation of opinion within the Church and of listening to men who have not been educated in any particular school of theology and hold their minds closely to the realities of experience. "While Paul abstains from appointing office bearers to preside at their meetings, he is careful to lay down two principles which should regulate their procedure. First, "let everything be done decently and in order." This advice was greatly needed in a Church in which the public services were sometimes turned into tumultuous exhibitions of rival gifts, each man trying to make himself heard above the din of voices, one speaking with tongues, another singing a hymn, a third loudly addressing the congregation, so that any stranger who might be attracted by the noise and step into the house could think this Christian meeting nothing else than Bedlam broke loose. Above all things, then, says Paul, conduct your meetings in a seemly fashion. Observe the rules of common decency and order. I do not prescribe any particular forms you must observe nor any special order you must follow in your services. I do not pronounce what portion of time should be devoted to prayer nor what to praise or exhortation: nor do I require that you should in all cases begin your service in the same stereotyped manner and carry it through in the same routine. Your services must vary both in form and in substance from week to week, according to the equipment of the individual members of your Church; sometimes there may be many who wish to exhort, sometimes there may be none. But in all this freedom and variety, spontaneity must not run into obtrusiveness, and variety must be saved from disorder.
The word "worship" is not used in the New Testament hence Christians should not worship during their services, is like the Muslims asking Christians "Where in the Bible did Jesus say I am God, worship me?" Sola Scriptura is going to wreck your faith, come out of Protestantism.
Thanks for watching. If you gave it a fair listen, you heard we weren't saying there should be no worship when the church gathers, but that there is no evidence in the NT that worship was the *purpose* for gathering.
Salvation is not a one time prayer. It is Salvationship Baptism is not a ritual, it is a covenant. Holy Spirit is a revelationship, He reveals Jesus (truth) to us. We are not going to the Heaven our Father resides in. We will meet Jesus in the air and come back to earth. It's all about being in salvationship with Jesus led by Holy Spirit everyday. We should never be born again out of fear. We should be born again out of love and appreciation for Jesus.
I've wrestled over our definition of worship for years, not being educated as these two are, I first came to believe it was something different because of the Word of first mention principle, it's when Abraham was going up the mount to sacrifice his son, he told his servants stay here, me and the lad are going up to worship, he wasn't lying he was going in obedience to perform and act unto God.
For me way back in the 90s I seen biblical worship as obedience unto God. This discussion brings more clarity after all these years thank you two.
We’ve given away ‘going’ to church.
I’m too sick too old to be bothered so five of us meet at our home each fortnight.
There's nothing wrong with the church coming to you. :-) The place isn't important, but meeting for mutual support, encouragement, and discipleship is. It sounds like that is what you are doing. May God bless your gatherings.
The religious system has deceptively redefined almost every important biblical word in the bible. Thank you for your work.
The Church is not about religious activities, but a relationship with God and His creation! To love God and love others is the sole purpose for why He created us in His image and likeness!
Yes, well said! I just want to add that other human beings are also part of that creation, and we play an important role in their edification, and they in ours. This notion is clearly reflected in the scriptures.
100% agree. Sadly most church meetings seem a waste of time. I'm hearing: ongoing reformation, discipleship & accountability - one with another. And Tom what a blessing that you speak of NOT tearing down people and systems but rather being the bearers of something better, based on unfolding (revealed, discovered, sought for) scriptural truths. OK got it, not condemning, but to edify! I'll go on to Tom's # 6.
Tom’s studies and teaching about these topics are revolutionary and edifying to the body.
One of the reasons why the current churches have gone wrong is mixing the activities of the old testament with those of the new testament hence they come up with a blend of activities.
Absolutely true!😢
100%wrong.
Tom, God is using you in HIS TIME! What a blessing covid was to bring such clarity to us now and you are part of this. It is like HE is bringing us together in A FRESH and RIGHT way….. Thank you, thank you, thank you!
Hey Eddie, Glad to catch your video , I too happened upon Tom, I've really enjoyed listening to him, I think he has great ideas as to how we should hear from one another. If we don't hear differing opinions how can we shape discernment. I have a view unlike others that I'm sharing. My study reveals that Paul's ministry is in two parts Now and Then as 1st Corinthians 13;12 informs us. I'm on fb blogging for Jesus, I've been sharing this fir about 5 years now as God has revealed. Lord bless you brother
What great questions and answers!
Actually (6:02) the purpose is to give people "head knowledge" so they can overcome objections when out trying to persuade people to become Christians ... or at least church members. Much of my church experience was academic pursuit, and I knew a lot about the Bible. I could play Bible trivia games and prevail. But there was little character development.
It only starts with head knowledge and then is supposed to trickle down into heart knowledge. Digging deeper and asking questions and discovering possible answers. There is a bunch of Bible stuff that is not actually on target that gets passed down from teacher to student. But by asking ourselves "Is that REALLY what happened?" Do I believe it just b/c my teacher in seminary said it? OR is the Bible saying something more profound? Having exchanges with other believers and going back over the scriptures in private study is when things can get really electrifying! (and fun!)
I just consulted my Strong's Concordance and I think I counted 8 different Greek words translated "worship" in the AV. Wow! Really?? I'll have to do my own deep dive on these and see if this usage of "worship" is justified for all these translations.
Outstanding! This is the Berean attitude at work (Acts 17:11). I encourage you NOT to take my, or Dr. Wadsworth's, word for this. Instead, confirm for yourself that what was said is true. This is the way.
"Write your 95 Thesis!" I would love to hear it. 😊
The Apostle Paul was emphatic. He didn't want people going back to the old system with its rules and regulations. It was hard indeed for the Jews who believed that Jesus was the Messiah to break away from that thinking. Then, there were gentiles who had embraced Judaism that were being told they had to keep the law and the other rituals. And then there were pagan converts among the Greeks and Romans (and other people groups). Church buildings keep getting bigger and bigger and become more elaborate. It's been said that the devil can't un-do the work of Christ in a believer, but he CAN prevent believers from growing and maturing, and that right there has weakened the church primarily in the West and U.S. in my humble view.
Interesting. Are you suggesting that the apostles, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, deliberately distanced themselves from temple practices-what we often refer to as "worship"-to reshape the disciples' mindset for the New Testament era? If so, that is an astute observation that I had not considered.
@@r4e I think something like that did happen, and not only via the Holy Spirit, but directly from the presence and spiritual power and instruction of Jesus, too. As you well know, the Pentateuch is full of extreme and elaborately detailed rules and regulations for life. In my recent readings of scripture, I've often marveled at the lengths God went to in order to guide his people, and I've asked myself again and again, why, why so much exacting detail in temple worship and daily life? Obviously, by the time of Jesus, the spiritual value of temple worship was waning, and change was on the way. I've also marveled at Jesus' radically different teachings which seemed to undo (or reorient or redirect?) a great many of these practices, which, of course, confounded the orthodox Jewish authorities.
@@tabletalk33 Even after 2000 years, the way of the New Covenant still confounds people. 🙂
@@r4e So true! May Christian education come to the rescue!
@@r4e I wish people would go back and read their Bibles. Along with that, they need to consult some Bible helps, concordances, dictionaries, and commentaries, including study of the customs and manners of Biblical and Greco-Roman culture. There are some excellent dictionaries, commentaries, and other books that cover this stuff in great detail. I think this is where a LOT of Christians get mixed up and confused.
So many believers are coming to these conclusions …. Thinking we are few….
I clicked the thumbs up button and it still remained at zero. Just FYI. I don’t go to a church because it troubles my soul. I’m with Tom 100%.
I see a like for the video, maybe that one is yours. Thank you.
I am persuaded that Tom's research and conclusions are exactly correct. In fact, I had reached some of the same conclusions years ago and I was gratified that his extensive research validated my own conclusions. Let's pray his research is widely disseminated.
I am with you- I have felt for years the church building scenario doesn’t fit. For one thing it is a burden to people financially to have to pay a mortgage for a building that is rarely used.
Yes ... and finally fighting over the property ... filing court cases against each other ... it's all happening in India .... for the last 15 years the Church gathers in our home ...
@@wendywalker35 An elder at my former church strongly agrees with you, here. He always felt that the building took too much energy and funds. Too much time over city code requirements, landscaping, roof repair, traffic control (for mega churches) etc. Instead, a house church would save up tithes and offerings to help members in time of need. Maybe someone lost a job and needs help temporarily to pay electric bill, maybe another member needs a minor car repair. Maybe someone else needs a minor home repair. And of course we would all be able to jump in and help where we are gifted. And such is the WITNESS to the lost! In the book of Acts, the unbelievers said of the Christians..."Look at how they love each other!" It wasn't how they helped the lost...it was how they helped each other! And sacrificed for each other.
So where do you assemble?
Some people need the prayers/friendsjip of Christians - it brings them strength and courage. But not churches are alike nor do all churches teach Biblical truth. Certainly, there are legitimate complaints about some church services. I have left churches when they became nightclubs.By that I mean; when I was in my early twenty’s I was born again and the first thing I said was Hallelujah, I don’t have to go to night clubs anymore!!! I always hated them - they are places of desperation and sin ;where men are trying to pick up women. So, fast track , to today, I walk into a non-denominational church that has come into town and what do I see : there are strobe lights, there is rock music with people up shaking their booty, there are smoke pots,
Dim lights, silly, non-reverential songs. my family and myself wanted no part of this confused church. It was like going back to my pre-born again Friday nights, which I hated back then. WHY, would anyone think this is pleasing to God? This is sooo many of today’s churches, saying they are CHRISTIAN but in reality, are only quasi-Christian in my opinion.
It's challenging to show people that Jesus's way is better when what we offer them is no different from what they can find in the world. What happens in the assembly should appeal to the inner man, not our fleshly senses.
Yep. In a word, it's "worshiptainment" that you are referring to, and it's a sorry irreverent mess unworthy of real Christians. Matthew Everhard has published a book with that title.
Sound Bible teaching thank you brother
Dallas Willard observes that we have developed a form of Christianity that separates being a Christian from being a disciple. Your presentation emphasizes the importance of making disciples, though you never use the term.
I shared a bit of the presentation with my wife. Her concern was that if we lose a lot of the “form“ of current church services and move towards lots of small group discussions then we risk the danger of cultic leaders rising, or unorthodox teachings taking root. I thought maybe that’s why Paul had to write all those letters back to churches that were getting off track . How do you maintain orthodoxy?
I wasn’t familiar with Dallas Willard's observation, but he expressed it very well. In our video, we discussed spiritual edification at length. Personally, I see discipleship and spiritual edification as nearly synonymous (I suspect youtube.com/@tomwadsworth would agree). While we may not have explicitly mentioned discipleship in the video, the concepts of edification and discipleship overlap so much that speaking of one inherently suggests the other (or so it seems to me).
As for orthodoxy, truth be told, the historical church model has never been effective at preserving doctrinal purity. Orthodoxy isn't maintained through organizational or hierarchical structures. Instead, it comes through cultivating biblical literacy, transparent leadership, and a culture of discipleship where sound doctrine is passed relationally. The early church demonstrates that intimate gatherings can be deeply orthodox when there's mutual accountability, scriptural understanding, and a commitment to spiritual growth. Paul's letters show that theological drift happens in all church models; the antidote is creating communities where truth is lovingly examined and deeply internalized. In short, heresy can arise from any church model.
I agree with the explanation given by @r4e. There are many "celebrity" pastors with mega churches who are way off course. They do not appreciate correction either! Small groups shouldn't have a single "leader" as it were...but have elders (plural) and a few others who are mature believers and solid teachers of the Word. All should be humble and open to correction. I've been a part of a few such groups over the years that were absolutely wonderful! They just didn't endure and eventually would dissolve for one reason or another...sometimes it was people moving, interference with work or an illness or family matter. It goes strong for awhile, and then drops off. But very meaningful, intimate gatherings that everyone very much looked forward to. By comparison, how many people do you suppose actually look forward to going to church?
See Expositor's Bible Commentary (@ eSword): 1 Corinthians 14:1-40-SPIRITUAL GIFTS AND PUBLIC WORSHIP:
"No countenance can be found in this chapter to the idea that worship should exclude preaching and become the sole purpose of the assembling together of Christian people. Some temperaments incline towards worship, but resent being preached to or instructed. The reverential and serious feelings which are quickened into life by devotional forms of prayer may be scattered by the buffoonery or ineptitudes of the preacher. Exasperation, unbelief, contempt, in the mind of the hearer may be the only results achieved by some sermons. It may occasionally occur to us that the Christian world would be very much the better of some years of silence, and that results which have not been reached by floods of preaching might be attained if these floods were allowed to ebb and a period of quiet and repose succeed. Unquestionably there is a danger at present of leading men to suppose that religion is a thing which must be ceaselessly talked about, and which perhaps chiefly consists of talk, so that if one only hears enough, and has the right opinions, he may accept himself as a religious person. But it is one thing to say that there is at present too much preaching or too careless and unequal a distribution of preaching, and quite another thing to say there should be none."
The purpose of the Mass is to receive the Eucharist - John 6 we are commanded to feast on the body and blood of Jesus “lest we have no life in us”. Only found at the Catholic Church. ⛪️ God bless you! Praying for the conversion of the whole world 🌎 to the Catholic Church ⛪️
We are an actual New Creation in Christ that needs to grow😊
I believe edification is best used as the context of the word would be and Corinthians 13;10 in this verse the term should probably mean instruction, because it's either edification or destruction the idea of building up is just a matter of loving one another, but the importance of understanding Paul's gospel is key. The example Paul gives is this , 2nd Corinthians 4;3 if our gospel be hidden it is hidden to the lost, the only time the word lost appears in Paul's gospel.
What gospel speaks of the lost, Luke , even the word gospel doesn't appear in Luke's gospel, no heirs are mentioned in Luke either, the only time heir is mentioned in mark or Matthew they killed him, so understanding that Paul's gospel is exclusive to heirs should be understood. Lord bless, I'm not trying to blow up your comment box, I'm just saying , Paul has a message that hasn't been heard.
Thanks !!
lol Dr Tom stumbled on this topic the year I was born!!😂
They built each other up by the gifts of the Spirit too.
Great observation. One that is often missed when looking at the church of the NT. Many were spiritually gifted. As such, they actually could edify/build up one another beyond just studying the Scriptures. This is another area we must seek growth in.
Hey, brother Lawrence. Thank you for your fantastic interview with Tom. A have a question: did you find his dissertation online for free or did you have to pay for it? If it is free, where can I find it?
I wasn't able to find it online. I contacted Tom through his website asking for a copy and he sent it to me. If you contact him I bet he'll send you a copy.
www.tomwadsworth.com/contact
I myself studied the Bible in both the Old and Testament about the practice of worship by the brlievers. I found out in the Old Testament that most of the word worship to God was experienced by individuals not by group. In the New Testament, Jesus did not command the disciples or the people whom He preached to go to the temple or a certain place to worship God. Not even Paul.
The thing I disapprove from this message is: everything has to be done for the edification of the saints. Yes, but where does it say that this is the only reason for gathering? So we sing praises to edify others and not first of all to glorify God? So we pray to edify others and not first of all to be heard in heaven ??
Man cannot become the centre of the gathering of the saints. Christ has to be the centre! We are edified to be more like Christ. We contemplate Christ's glory as we gather, and we are transformed in His image. The church is the household of God, the body of Christ, and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit first!
Apart from this, it's clear that church building model without house churches is limited, but big gatherings have their place. Do you imagine that Paul went house to house to preach to small groups of 20 people in a town like Ephesus where there were thousands of believers and never gathered them together? Or how did the apostles coordinate the daily distribution of food to the widows if there was no organised system of knowing who is who? Small house churches without coordination and oversight will only result in heresies.
The early church did meet in homes (e.g., Acts 2:46, 12:12; Rom 16:5; 1 Cor 16:19; Phil 1:2; Col 4:15), but they also gathered as larger groups, like in Solomon’s Colonnade (Acts 5:12). Both formats had their place.
As for heresy, the issue isn’t the size of the gathering but the need for sound teaching and strong leadership. Paul emphasized the role of elders and overseers in protecting the church from false teaching (Acts 20:28-30, Titus 1:9). Even larger assemblies aren’t immune to heresy, as we see in Paul’s letters to entire churches (e.g., Galatians, Corinthians), where false doctrine had spread despite oversight. Smaller gatherings allow for more personal accountability and discipleship, which are vital for spiritual growth (Hebrews 10:24-25). With godly leadership and unity in Christ, both small and large assemblies can remain faithful to God’s truth.
One has to wonder how the early church did it without smoke machines and powerful PA systems.
😊
@@r4e Live fire for the smoke and a papyrus megaphone. It was really something to see and God was very impressed.
I'm 30 mins in and there's no mentuon of what meetings did consist of yet.... surely that's a big omission.... so do I keep listening in the hope that it does or forget it! Eg I don't really care about discussing the GREEK words but how we should behave at church. ????
I think the scholar is Nehemia Gordon. He is also an expert in the tetragrammaton YHWH
Do you have a position on replacement theology
I don't believe the New Testament teaches replacement theology. Instead, the church has joined Israel. Romans 11 illustrates this with the grafting of wild olive branches into the cultivated tree of Israel. The church is now part of Israel, not a replacement.
if the gathering of the saints is solely for the edification of the saints and nothing else, what do you say about Acts 13:1-2, that clearly says these servants of God (includong Paul) had gathered to worship the Lord (or to minister to the Lord, as translated in order versions like KJV)? How can the gathering of the saints be man-centered and not God-centered?
Thank you for your comment! It’s clear that you have given this some thought.
Acts 13:2 highlights a common challenge with many English Bible translations. Modern readers often bring two assumptions to this verse.
First, the Greek word leitourgeo is translated as “worshiping” in some versions, but is this accurate? If you compare translations (KJV, NKJV, ASV, NASB, HCSB, NET, etc.), most use “serving” or “ministering” instead. The term leitourgeo specifically refers to priestly service, not worship in the way we commonly think of it today. What service were the five prophets and teachers mentioned in verse 1 performing? The text indicates they were fasting and praying as part of the commissioning of Barnabas and Saul to share the good news with the Gentiles. While we might assume they had gathered for worship, the text doesn’t explicitly say that.
Second, there’s an assumption that this was an assembly of the church at Antioch. However, verse 1 simply states that the church had prophets and teachers, naming five of them. It does not suggest that the church was assembled for worship, but rather emphasizes that these individuals were engaged in a specific act of service.
The English word “worship” is too broad. As Dr. Wadsworth aptly points out:
“[When] an English Bible says that someone ‘worshiped,’ what did that person do? Did they offer a prayer or a song? Did they feel a sense of reverence? When a Bible verse says that someone ‘paid homage,’ what exactly constitutes ‘homage?’ Did the person present a gift? Did they offer a sacrifice? Did they say certain words? The reader does not know.”
To fully understand what’s happening in the text, it’s crucial to explore the underlying Greek words and their meanings. Tools like a Strong’s concordance and a good Bible dictionary are invaluable for this kind of study.
Regarding the claim that the gathering is “man-centered,” the New Testament authors provide a different perspective. They emphasize that the primary purpose of Christian assemblies is mutual edification (1 Corinthians 14; Hebrews 10:24-25). God understands our need for encouragement and strength from one another. When we gather for the reason God has appointed, we honor Him by doing what He desires.
This is not to say that our assemblies lack a vertical component-there certainly is one. However, it is not presented as the main purpose. According to the New Testament, the primary goal of Christian gatherings is the spiritual growth and edification of the church.
How is this brother in high demand since the overwhelming numbers of believers think is not good for the “church”? Some would accuse this thinking as not being submissive to the church or pastor shepherd.
I guess the ring of truth draws people in.
Two of us elders left the institutionalized church because freedom was restricted by the pastor. The other elders circled the wagons around the “anointed” one man show and developed an authoritative system that was building a legalistic guilt based, performance driven gospel which was not good news.
The organized church method is a priest that stands above all others. Little to know interaction. In charismatic circles they use a shepherd method but it’s basically the same priest thing.
Home churches have their own challenges but at least there is fellowship and shared leadership.
After we left the organized church the scales started falling off and we saw how the congregation was frozen in place under the pastor.
it can be whatever people want it to be without your permission.
As far as the word worship goes. I think that God has given us the 1611 kjv, it has been proven that it supersedes the Hebrew and the Greek I point you to Truth in Christ on utube, probably the most incredible discover about how the kjv is God's undefiled word made perfect. It not anything I would argue after watching and testing Brandon's research.
What you are talking about is the true worship though. Unlike the “worship” they call in “church” theres a difference. My mom for example believes singing gospel songs in “church” is the actual “worship”. That is not true. Worship is done in the Spirit as it says in John 4. Therefore worship can be done everywhere.
Our definition of worship is wrong
The Expositor's Bible Commentary, 1 Corinthians 14:1-40; SPIRITUAL GIFTS AND PUBLIC WORSHIP (extracted from e-Sword).
Jesus gave to the Apostles the Authority to preach & teach the truth. Does Authority, therefore, matter to be able to preach & teach the truth, and to ensure that it continues that the preaching and teaching is done correctly should not that Authority be passed on by those who had/have the Authority to preach and teach the truth or can anyone preach & teach, whatever they like without that Authority??? Would anyone allow someone to teach their children if that person has no authority to teach children??? Why is this so difficult to understand.
See: Expositor's Bible Commentary: 1 Corinthians 14:1-40; SPIRITUAL GIFTS AND PUBLIC WORSHIP (source: e-Sword):
We lose much of what would interest and much that would edify by enjoining silence upon the membership of the Church.
And yet, as Paul observes, there was much to be desired in those Corinthian services. Had there been some authorised official presiding over them, the abuses of which this letter speaks could not have arisen. To appeal to this chapter or to any part of this letter in proof that there should be no distinction between clergy and laity would be very bad policy. It is indeed obvious that at this time there were neither elders nor deacons, bishops nor rulers of any kind, in the Church of Corinth; but then it is quite as obvious that there was great need of them, and that the want of them had given rise to some scandalous abuses and to much disorder. The ideal condition would be one in which authority should be lodged in certain elected office bearers, while the faculty and gift of each member in some way contributed to the good of the whole Church. In most Churches of our own day, efforts are made to utilise the Christian energies of their membership in those various charitable works which are so necessary and so abundant. But probably we should all be the better of a much freer ventilation of opinion within the Church and of listening to men who have not been educated in any particular school of theology and hold their minds closely to the realities of experience.
"While Paul abstains from appointing office bearers to preside at their meetings, he is careful to lay down two principles which should regulate their procedure. First, "let everything be done decently and in order." This advice was greatly needed in a Church in which the public services were sometimes turned into tumultuous exhibitions of rival gifts, each man trying to make himself heard above the din of voices, one speaking with tongues, another singing a hymn, a third loudly addressing the congregation, so that any stranger who might be attracted by the noise and step into the house could think this Christian meeting nothing else than Bedlam broke loose. Above all things, then, says Paul, conduct your meetings in a seemly fashion. Observe the rules of common decency and order. I do not prescribe any particular forms you must observe nor any special order you must follow in your services. I do not pronounce what portion of time should be devoted to prayer nor what to praise or exhortation: nor do I require that you should in all cases begin your service in the same stereotyped manner and carry it through in the same routine. Your services must vary both in form and in substance from week to week, according to the equipment of the individual members of your Church; sometimes there may be many who wish to exhort, sometimes there may be none. But in all this freedom and variety, spontaneity must not run into obtrusiveness, and variety must be saved from disorder.
The word "worship" is not used in the New Testament hence Christians should not worship during their services, is like the Muslims asking Christians "Where in the Bible did Jesus say I am God, worship me?"
Sola Scriptura is going to wreck your faith, come out of Protestantism.
Did you watch the video?
@@r4eYes, I have
Yes, I have .
Thanks for watching. If you gave it a fair listen, you heard we weren't saying there should be no worship when the church gathers, but that there is no evidence in the NT that worship was the *purpose* for gathering.
The church has no power since it's departure from the God-given King James Bible.
ruclips.net/video/yS78mFJcvhQ/видео.htmlsi=2s4IzNsQ6_aRKTaY
Hillsong is not worship its obscene.
Salvation is not a one time prayer. It is Salvationship
Baptism is not a ritual, it is a covenant.
Holy Spirit is a revelationship, He reveals Jesus (truth) to us.
We are not going to the Heaven our Father resides in. We will meet Jesus in the air and come back to earth.
It's all about being in salvationship with Jesus led by Holy Spirit everyday.
We should never be born again out of fear. We should be born again out of love and appreciation for Jesus.