I think it's great advice to start learning arcade stick on games that don't require advance techniques. Too many of my buddies finally grab an arcade stick for a fighting game they've played for years on d-pad and are instantly turned off by how bad their execution is on them.
Keyboard user here. You actually give a pretty fair view of the keyboard imo. It is really good for precision, but suffers if it comes down to stamina. Even if you use the keyboard for years, there is still the risk of carpal tunnel if you do too exhausting grinding sessions (best example I can think of is when Mino tried to LNN TH6 and grinded for many hours daily. Poor guy couldn't properly play without bad pain for weeks I believe). Thus it is important to take breaks and not strain the hands too much. I use a bit of the weight of my hand to press the keys, so I use my entire hand and not only the fingers. It looks weird, but it works for me. I haven't been able to really use an arcade stick, so I don't know if that suits me personally. Controllers are a bit weird for me with how the controls work, but it's nothing that can't be fixed by practice. I mean, if I could learn Tetris on a controller, why not other games? Though the most bizarre method of control belongs to Creepyninja_. He uses a keyboard, but he plays with his hands crossed! (There are videos with handcam on his channel, but they are few and far between) What surprises me most about it though is that he can somehow perform well with his control method!
@@Klugdeph ayo fellow left handed touhou player hear and I went through a similar thing although i never used the cross hand method and instead just forced myself to play right-handed for a while until I could find a way to do the keyboard binds and play with wasd although I do plan in the future to build myself a custom mix box type of controller
K E Y B O A R D G A N G I used to play on pad, but then I gave keyboard a shot out of necessity and never looked back (at least for shmups). It makes me feel the most in control, and doesn't wear out my hands as quickly. But I have to say, playing Psyvariar really showcased how lacking keyboard is when it comes time to pull off some circular movement. In most shmups this isn't a huge deal-breaker, but circular and arcing movement is huge in Psyvariar, and keyboard feels very clumsy. On the flipside, old-school shmups like Raiden, SameSameSame and perhaps Psikyo really play to the keyboard's strength, it might be the best device for those games. I'm not sure if this is just from me using WASD or a lack of finger dexterity, but another drawback I've noticed is how difficult it can be to quickly switch from W to S in the heat of the moment.
4 years in the future and the WS issue is pretty easy to avoid with an ortholinear layout with light low profile switches like Kailh Choc Pink, you can just rock your middle finger back and forth
4 years from the future and I have a lot of advice when it comes to keyboard play, there's three primary factors to the ergonomics especially when playing game. The actuation force (how hard you need to press), the key travel (how far you can press the key) and the layout of the keyboard. The works keyboards are your standard office keyboards that probably came with your computer, they usually fail on all three metrics, though some newer office keyboards have low profile scissor switch mechanisms from laptops. It doesn't feel as satisfying but you want the lightest mechanical, linear keys in an ortholinear layout, a bowl shape and split. This will also alleviate pretty much all issues with typing. The bowl shape can be sacrificed for cost reasons but ortholinear and split are game changers. Bonus points for low profile switches like Kailh Chocs. Some notable ergonomic keyboards are: Glove 80 Kinesis Advantage Ergodox Dactyl Manuform Corne Iris
As far as the keyboard goes, you should NOT be experiencing any pain. All of that comes down to understanding ergonomics, and sitting at a desk with a keyboard is probably the most discussed, so the information is easy to find. What you are specifically describing seems like your wrists are not up, but are resting on the edge of the keyboard/desk. You generally want your wrist straight (think of throwing a punch), and if anything you want your fingers to naturally curve down, just like if you completely relaxed them. So if that is you and you insist on your wrists resting on something then you should get something that is higher than the keyboard so your wrists are not bent. You said you play instruments, so the same applies: if you can't do it completely relaxed you are doing something wrong. Any pain means you need to stop IMMEDIATELY and figure out what is causing it. I've done music and type on a keyboard for decades without issue and if your ergonomics are on point you will never have to worry about things like carpal tunnel.
The circular movement is an interesting point. As a keyboard primary I found it a lot easier to do circular movements, often getting into slightly curved bullet 'lanes' like in EspRaDe or Espgaluda compared to similar patterns on keyboard. On the topic of buffering, there is an interesting technique you can use. In games in which pressing both left and right *favours* a direction (for example, touhou games after EoSD have you move left if both left and right are activated) you can use this to adjust, say, if you have to make a circular movement but have to stay close to a set of bullets to graze it. While moving rightwards and towards the bullets, instead of watching for 'safe' locations and directing your rightward movement in that manner, you can instead look at if your character is particularly close to the bullet hitboxes and tap the left key to modulate how close you are from dying. It's a very minor technique, but in games which involve you grazing in a circular manner it's a pretty useful technique since you adjust your entire left/right movement via use of 1 key, which allows for some pretty insane precision. Another part of keyboard play that is quite important is that unless I require max speed of my character, I will always tap my way to a location because it allows me to control my velocity, which is a bit harder on stick where tapping seems to be reserved for when it's required due to it being more difficult. Great video as always.
Im D-Pad user as well. I mostly use X360 or Sega Saturn controller. I feel way more comfortable and confident with controller, than on keyboard or Arcade stick. I actually play most (PC) Games with controller, except a few exception. Thats because I have problems playing/using a keyboard, and for Arcade sticks im not sure. I havent really used them much yet, because I dont have one and the only place Im able to use them is at a gaming meetup. Also, the thing with some D-Pads, for example the X360 or Switch Pro controller is, it takes some time to get used to them and if you use them over time more and more, they get less stiff and more smooth. "5h session" I cant play more than 3-4h per day, especially when it comes to shmups where I play like 2-3h per day.
Ha! I think my viewer demographic is like 20% under 21, 50% 21-32, and 30% 33 and above, so the channel has a pretty healthy spread of age demographics I think :-)
Interesting video. A good input method I don't see mention too often is the analog stick on modern controllers, it's surprinzingly effective ! Very good for doing curves and arching movements, and very natural to learn for most modern console gamers. It's really natural imo, and I have no issues doing clean diagonals. Maybe not the most popular method but I enjoy it quite a lot
Also depending on how you code it instead of a cardinal direction being a binary on/off switch you can take advantage of the fact it is analog and get very precise and small movements in every possible direction. Mastery means you can effectively control your speed, and because of this I can't discount it as a viable option for shmups.
I have to say mate, I’m well chuffed to be coming home from work everyday with a new E.U video to watch while I have my tea. If you are gonna keep this up I will probably become a patron.
Ha well good news is that the pace will continue for another week or so, because I m catching up on topics. It s a safe bet to say that my output will remain fairly high for quite a while.
Please do. Mark is the hardest working person I've seen representing the SHMUP scene. If you care about the genre and it's representation it will be hard to find someone else who goes harder for it. He's also helpful and responds to everything.
@@J4k3_Ry4n dude 300% with you. From being a shmup aficionado, flirting in Mame here and there, buying shmups in itch io… to spent in less than 1 month almost £200 In proper shmups. I am remembering why I love video games and this fella is guiding
Great video - your comments on fatigue match my own experience. I moved from keyboard to controller, but my thumb gets tired very quickly. I imagine keyboard fatigue could possibly be alleviated by remapping buttons to use your thumb as well as fingers with your hand in a more natural position, but I've not tried it. Still on the fence about getting an arcade stick - I might have to upgrade my bladder too if I don't want to bottle neck the potential endurance gain of a stick XD
You pick up a really good point about muscle memory and fight sticks. I'm so used to right handed sticks, during pre crash era, that I feel that there is literally no off the shelf controller for me. Which hand you use is important. Your right hand is better for most players. And that's exactly why the Japanese was enforcing left hand stick, to shorten credits to make more money when arcade was the primary economy for games. I find joysticks (and right handed ones) the best is because the mechanisms prevents unwanted diagonals.
Love the Genesis 6 button and the JP style Saturn 6 button. Sticks are fun too of course. Trying to play stick more these days. I play Street Fighter with a HitBox. Wonder if the HitBox could be viable in Shmups. Anyone out there use a HitBox?
Saturn is best dpad by far. I have a hitbox for Tekken and it's top tier for direction input speed. Would take some time commiting the up direction button position to muscle memory for shmups but once you've overcome that hurdle I reckon it'd be very useful. Dragon slay make a fight pad that I think is a rebranded hori product. Cheap feeling pad but dpad is very good and a little like the Saturn and Genesis and works on pc and PS4.
Funny thing, I always played with D-pad and was really fond of circular models (Mega Drive and Saturn). After a long hiatus, I restarted to play shmups but both Nintendo Pro Controller and PlayStation DualShock used to hurt my thumbs after long sessions. Then I tried with Arcade Sticks, but a wrong choice (Mayflash) ultimately doomed the experience (the Seimitsu stick worked like a wonder though). The saviour was the recent 8bitdo M-30, a sort of hybrid between the Mega Drive and the Saturn controllers, its shape is comfy for my hands and the circular D-pad is good. I can play up to two hours without problems with it! Maybe I will give arcade sticks another try, but for now I am still with d-pad team.
Nine months since I got into shmups, and I've only used a stick for the first month and then moved on to a gamepad. I used a Dual Shock 4 for about seven months and then bought an 8BitDo Pro 2 after the Dual Shock 4's D-pad started acting up. My only gripe with gamepads is the potential for inaccurate diagonal inputs. But the overall ease and ergonomic comfort is why I mainly use them. This is especially useful for me in Crimzon Clover where I set the lock-on to a shoulder button. My arcade stick experience hasn't been that very excellent as I started with the Hori Fighting Stick Mini which is too small for my big hands. There is definitely a slower input, but hey my first few novice 1CCs like Mushihimesama were acquired with that stick so it wasn't all too bad. I am trying to borrow a bigger arcade stick from a friend just to see if a bigger stick would be more comfortable for me to play longer on. I do want to try keyboards, but I find it a chore to try to find a way to map keyboard inputs with WASD considering that most shmups' control mapping would default to the arrow keys for movement.
Probably a weird request, but since I got an injury during past year in my left ribs and recovered from it, I switched my traditional way of playing shmups (Regular Analog on Controller) to keyboard (Directional Keys for movement, ASD for actions) so I could evade the pain and slowly recover, but now I play better than I used to in my controller since my right hand is better trained in the ship’s movement Does exist some kind of controller WHERE the main analog/D-Pad are located in the RIGHT side of the controller? Not the left side since it is now my “lazy” hand and just keeps the Shot button pressed
Hi Felipe, I m sorry to hear about your injury. Maybe you could build a custom arcade stick where the lever is on the right side? That should be doable
Arcade stick not being as fatigued is why I love it, but this isn’t very true with super long throws like the Sanwa JLF or the HORI Hayabusa. Problem is you gotta put it in the time and every stick feels different. I’m switching from Sanwa JLF to a Seimitsu LS-40, and I’m encountering a weird issue with dashing to the right and sometimes getting stuck on the microswitch, this is a big problem with KOF 2K2UM MAX Mode combos. It doesn’t happen with other directions.
Do you have the PCB version LS-40-01 or the harness type LS-40? Do you mean the direction get's stuck or that it sort of gets hooked on the switch? Take the actuator in your hands and feel the edge at the wide end? If you feel a sharp edge of extra material, that is where it hooks the microswitch. Remove the extra material carefully and it will work perfectly. If it's an uneven activation issue so that one direction activates earlier than other directions and you have a harness type ls-40 take the harness out and place them carefully so that all of them are in the exact same position because there can be a little play in the angle of the switch. Uneven activation shouldn't happen on a PCB version but resoldering the switches would fix it.
@@voutespancar A throw is the distance to the switches. When you buy an arcade stick it will propably have either a Sanwa JLF or a Hori Hayabusa that are both longer throw joysticks than Seimitsu sticks. A longer throw has more room in the neutral so you don't accidentally hit an opposite direction when returning to neutral during fast movements but you have to work a lot more because the distance to the switches is longer. There really aren't any negatives to a shorter throw stick like the LS-32 or an LS-40. They are both easy to control around the neutral and hitting the switches is fast because they are closer. The LS-32 has a medium/short throw and the LS-40 has a short throw. But it all comes down to preference.
DId the Westernn record holder who used the XBOX 360 controller you mentioned do it using the D-pad on that controller or the analog stick? BTW cool to hear you play guitar as well, I've played my whole life but am pretty new to the Shmups party.
Hey man, great video+topic. I come back to this one often, dealt with the same when it comes to control methods I prefer. Wanted to offer additional subjective reasons why, and perhaps others, prefer keys/keyboard and not just for shmups. You mentioned that some of your physical activities like tennis and playing instruments ties back well to stick, if I understand, as an extension to your body and having greater control of movement. I feel very much the same when it comes to face buttons (finger per key), I just copy this concept to my movement inputs (wasd, finger per key). I play bass, and to achieve the most accurate and economic movement possible, my fretting fingers are usually spread 1 per fret. I could say the same for piano, but even drums in the way because of how spread apart they are. (I dedicate a limb per drum/cymbal, and so the strike will always land where I mean it to). So it's a point of limiting how much movement I have to make to actuate the input. Second is like you say, we have bias to what we grew up with. And my theory is that a LOT of us who grew up in late 90s/early 2000s had but a computer, no consoles! My household didn't actually have a console until I was 13, but we all had desktop PCs. And most games I played were keyboard only! Free-to-play games hosted online flourished, even Flash games. Just thought this part of history of people gaming tends to be forgotten. Also the last opinion's actually one of comfort, I use a mini portable keyboard. My hand posture feels more relaxed on keyboard, than gripping a controller or fight stick. I feel like I can even play on my back, because my hands are just resting on the keyboard, arms either straight or only slightly bent. I don't know why, but I instinctively hold up a controller in the air, elbow bent at like a 90 deg angle, and both my thumb joints get tired. And a fight stick... It's just cumbersome to me, man 😂 it's like if I went back to using one of those flight stick joysticks we used to use on PC for fps games. Like when all PC controllers were just gigantic. It's cool but it takes so much more work vs a light touch in one direction. I understand this is also subjective per one's posture and build. Cheers
I started with gamepad as I didn't play computer games until I bought a laptop last year. Funny thing is that I used the joystick instead of the D-pad, since I didn't know the pad players used D-pad. Not sure how the joystick measures up with the D-pad and arcade stick. Nowadays I'm playing on keyboard, but I only play one run a day since I don't have much time. Maybe once I get more free time I'll need to learn how to use an arcade stick, but until then I'll stick to keyboard. Also, it's nice to see that you are getting so many comments now! It seems like you get at least 20 comments on every video. If you see this before Shmup Slam, good luck on your run!
recently using d pad & flipgrip for my switch , playing 1945 gunbird espdarepsi , btw planning to get a best arcade stick for it , any recommend ? btw me staying at Asia Hong Kong , thanks for the video also , hard to find Shmups youtuber with lot of experience at youtube nowadays , like the way u explain , solid ! 👍🏻
The math doesn't work out because the octo gate is smaller on the diagonals if I remember right, there are charts for that kinda thing if you want to fact check. I'm guessing they want you to ride the gate, which is a bad habit because you're throwing your stick and giving yourself ever so slightly more travel time
I used to play fighters with an arcade stick for years. I thought it would translate well to shmups, but I was trash. I actually just 1cc DDP DFK for the first time yesterday with Xbox One controller on PC. It felt really good and I felt a good level of control over the arcade stick.
Solution to the poor ergonomics of a keyboard: use a split ergo keyboard with lighter switches, tenting, and a proper desk setup so you don't put any stress on your wrists and don't tire out your fingers. This is ultimately a project on the same tier as building your own arcade stick, with a lot of research and work required to get the best result. Most of the popular ergo keyboards don't have dedicated arrow keys, so if you want to play shooting games you'll need to get deep into custom remapping in your game / emulator, hack together an AutoHotKey script, or tweak your keyboard's firmware. Or possibly some combination of all three. This probably makes more sense if you're already a keyboard ninja that likes vim keybindings, since you can also use your keyboard at work to potentially increase your productivity. Does it actually make you better at shmups? No, but it's a lot of fun. For the record, I have movement on IJKL, and my buttons on ASDFG. I've been intending to put bomb on one of my thumb keys. The goal is to never move my hands off of the home row, unless I really need to, and then place my keyboard and arms so that they're as comfortable as possible. I think the real lesson here is to take regular breaks regardless of your input method, just like the safety manuals that come with all of our games say to do. Still, I'm interested in picking up a used arcade stick sometime, especially since I know how to solder now so my repair and mod options have opened up quite a bit.
I've been gaming on controller for over 30 years now, and never really hard arcade, so arcade sticks do feel pretty foreign to me. I've also transitioned to PC gaming about 10 years ago and still haven't been able to adopt the keyboard. I use a hybrid control scheme of a half-controller that fits in one hand and a mouse in my right. I am considering its replacement now as it is starting to wear out and was considering something of a hitbox setup, but for the left hand only, and tilted 30-45 degrees to actually make it more ergonomic. Yeah, gaming keypads do exist but, they don't offer much benefit over a keyboard in terms of comfort. The discomfort you notice from keyboard use is almost entirely attributed to pronating of the hand (facing the palm downwards). You can hold your palm flat on your desk and do nothing else with it and feel strain when compared to resting your hand on the outside edge.
Yeah I ve noticed that even with proper form I tend to get sore hands using keyboard, but I think this might be due to injuries to my hands in the past
@@TheElectricUnderground Nah, it's actually pretty normal.. that's why you see so many efforts to create "ergonomic" keyboards. And there's biological science to back this up. Pronating the hands downwards does put strain on the arm, it actually causes the radius and ulna to cross eachother, press into eachother, and press the nerves and tendons in between. Long story short, avoid it whenever possible. Do not game on keyboards. As for typing, not sure what we can do. Ergo keyboards usually suck for one reason or another.
You mede some really solid points. Especially regarding arcade sticks. I originally switched from controllers to stick because the d-pad was just tearing my thumb apart after 20 minutes. Switching to stick I can play up to 2 hours no problem now. Unfortunately, I learned Dragon Ball fighterz on a sn30 pro pad. So it made the transition over to stick so much harder that I had to quit playing for three months to lose that muscle memory. And now that I rebuilt it on stick, it's just a vastly easier experience. I love d-pad and sick for Platformers, shoot em ups, and Beat'me Up. But im strictly stick for fighting games now. Great job on the video!
Hello, I got a Krom Kumite arcade stick, but I'm new to arcade sticks, is it good, may you point something better and cheap at the same time these days?
I am glad I discovered your channel,you provide alot of great knowledge and insight on the Shmup genre. I come to love playing Shmups on the switch, and i was wondering if you would recommend the hori line that is available for the switch (mini/regular) Or maybe another stick that is switch friendly.
One thing to consider with the Hori is they are wired, and attaching to the dock adds a frame of lag, see electricunderground.io/shmup-input-lag-database. Normally I think wireless is more responsive but the Switch is unique in this case due to the dock. However the RAP V is well made and if you want to follow this guide (ruclips.net/video/31aIbVEwjks/видео.html) and mod it someday you will be set. It also works with PC. You can also throw the Switch in a stand and connect it directly to the Switch with a USB C adapter, however silly that might be (theoretically this should reduce the lag). Steer clear of the 8bitdo wireless stick, even though it gets around the dock being wireless it has much more input lag than the pro controller when connecting to the Switch (it is responsive for PC though, go figure). 8bitdo review: ruclips.net/video/-6LEPTpX5BY/видео.html
For anyone reading this, the Hori mini stick is AWFUL AWFUL AWFUL, if it's the same design as the PS4/3 one which it appears to be. It was my first ever stick, I got it to play BlazBlue casually online with friends several years ago back when I only even played Tager, and even I could tell it was not up to snuff. I paid £35 brand new and still felt ripped off. After a couple weeks the bottom right direction stopped registering entirely. Run, don't walk, to the next cheapest alternative.
Mark.. I Have just realised that I have never seen You talk about what is possibly the most addictive shmup on iOS. Bullet hell Monday. Have you played it!?. It is absolutely Amazing!. Give it a fair go because it REALLY warms up once you upgrade your ship and open Challenge and endless modes .
Super detailed breakdown. Great video. The korean sticks sound interesting with the rubber pad for resistance. As mentioned I now have a rap4 hayabusa stick in a Mayflash F500 base and a Semitsu 62 in the old RAP4 base. Im enjoying swapping between the two and experimenting. I installed some Semitsu buttons and still prefer the super responsive sanwas but thats another topic. Im not a shooter specialist so the feedback is extremely useful. I can tell you really have the skill and experience with this genre. The biggest debate in my head was the shorter throw distance of clicking a Dpad as opposed to having to move a stick to hit that click. I always figured pads were superior for that reason alone as its basically adding input lag. The strange thing is I sometimes do better when I switch over to a stick or at worst play about the same. Even when swapping between pad and stick its so subtle, like you said. Im still trying to nail it down. Of course most of my experience is on a pad, but I challenged myself with a stick years back by learning some very hard console and arcade games on the stick. It saved my hands at the time and allowed me to keep grinding, as you said. The stick definately wins when it comes to long grind and endurance sessions. That was my main reason for using it as an alternative initially. I can even play 2D platformers and other genres pretty well on a stick now, but pad still has a clear edge for me on those. Thats more due to my lack of experience with sticks than anything else. I also prefer the Seimitsu 62 stick to the looser hayabusa I was using, for shooters. It was subtle but I noticed I could really make micro adjustments better with that stick. I think the hayabusa will still have its uses. For some reason Gun.smoke felt better with that stick. That game forces you to switch directions hyper aggressively so the looser stick may suite that particular game better. Appreciate the break down.
@@TheElectricUnderground Nice. I may have to look into those for a third build, ha ha. These controllers are very addictive. Its always satisfying to mod them. Cant say Im even going to use one over the other but its alot of fun.
I feel ya on the "other console games" point... I got the Mega Drive Arcade Power Stick to use with Thunder Force IV (as well as the Mighty Morphin Power Rangers Movie beat em up), and I tried it on Sonic 3 once out of curiousity. Whoof, never again. Pad all the way. You know what, while I'm on the subject, don't get that stick except for the novelty. It's not a proper mechanism, it's basically an overgrown pad and it's mushy as hell lol
@@ChrisStoneinator Appreciate the feedback. I would agree with you when talking about the joysticks released by companies like Nintendo and Sega for thier old consoles. Those were real low quality, mushy like you said. I believe most of those had no click when you moved the stick since they didnt use microswitches the way real arcade sticks from arcades do. The sticks ive been using are the ones used in Japanese arcades like Seimitsu. The buttons are also hyper responsive sanwa buttons. They respond to the slightest touch and are the most responsive buttons Ive used on any controller. There is still a learning curve but when I first tried these sticks I was already able to beat some very hard games. It took some practice to match my proficiency with the pad on certain types of games but that gap is definately closing. I prefer the stick now on certain types of games like shooters. Gun.Smoke was a brutal arcade game where the stick really suited the game. Not just the stick but the overhand button layout since you had to hit those fire buttons instantly and cant really do that using your thumb on the 3 buttons.
@@theconsolekiller7113 yes the bit about the sega stick itself was an aside, I didn't wanna be held responsible in case someone took my comment as an endorsement lol. I took it apart to clean it and lubricate it, and indeed it's just a cap on a ball that pivots to hit a rubber dome in each direction, like a d-pad
Arcade stick seems fun, and challenging but more limited on the techniques you can use. Keyboard can press multiple keys for many different techniques. Keyboard does fatigue you, I assumed arcade stick would fatigue you more because of it being bigger but I guess not because you are using more muscles.
I can't believe I'm on the minority for using a Thumbstick to play shmups it's not even mentioned XD... I can't afford an arcade stick and I've tried playing with d-pad and keyboard but the movements just doesn't feel natural to the point that it's quite unsatisfying to play. So I just stick with the analog stick. Yes it has problems with accuracy and micrododging at first,but ofcourse with practice and getting used to, It works for me...
I had to scroll al this way to find someone else ghehe. I used to play pad on my 8bitdoSNES, but then I switched to playing some ports on PSX and PS2 and I couldn't get used to the dualshock d-pad. Also I have a 360 controller for my pc and that d-pad to me is horrid. So naturally I started gravitating towards the analog stick. It works well for me, apart from the times i slip off. Glad it doesn't happen often. For grip I prefer the 360 controller to the PS2. Both are worn.
Imo, the best option would be the digital tablets, but unfortunately they are exclusive to pc, expensive and it's hard to find games that accepts digital tablets' input
that is exactly why I want to switch to stick! my thumb cant take the beating. back dashing and electrics are killing my thumb. I want a good stick....
this is great insight and i agree hitbox being advertised as ergonomic is bullshit, because pad controllers are way more ergonomic. the problem is we use all 8 or 10 buttons on controller (d-pad and face buttons) with only two thumbs which leads to fatigue buildup. in theory we can alleviate this issue by using only left and right d-pad and move the up and down to L and ZL or back button, the more finger we use the better, i think.
Considering the stamina you need to properly play shmups, I do think arcade sticks the most ideal. playing Battle Garegga 8 hours straight with the Dualshock 4 hurts my left thumb for 2 days.
I got tendon problems playing Guilty Gear Strive on dpad. Millia Rage specifically so I cant imagine Tekken on dpad. New keyboard technology I would think will push it over to the ideal input method. Near instant feedback because of the technology in switches. You also get switches that are less heavy so better for long sessions with input heavy games. Seen a specail keypad for Osu! designed to be played for hours with near instant inputs. I have a wooting 60% keyboard coming so I will feel how this technology works.
I think it also matters which controller you use, I LOVE the saturn pad, but at the same time HATE the Xbox one controller, to me its dpad placement is uncomfortable, and I feel like I don't do as good on the xbox one controller when using the dpad as I do on the Saturn pad, I think something else that matters on the stick is the type of gate you use, I remember when I was playing Ikaruga I could definitely tell there would be a benefit of the octagonal gate when I was in situations where enemies are circling around me and I have to get through circles and circles of enemies, an octagonal gate would definitely be more accurate in certain situations then a square gate would be.
i'm Keyboard user(both STG and fighting games). especially right handed movement(arrow keys fo movement instead WASD) my right hand reflex pretty quick and feels comfrtable for movement). i want to try Saturn pad(i have pre-order it on my country) cuz i heard Junkies and Jaimers like Saturn pad and also Saturn pad seems like Genesis pad which is nostalgic for me when i touching a console controller platform for the first time while i play Raiden Trad on genesis port. it seems i'll try touhou and DFK to make used to the Saturn pad. honestly i want to pick up Arcade stick but Arcade with that kind of game was no longer exist on my country. and also Arcade stick was extremely expensive here.
I love how you cover all the angles. If I was asked this question I would only be thinking in terms of accuracy and top-end performance. Well done! I am currently making the transition to stick myself. I agree that the wrong stick makes the already difficult transition even tougher. My first stick as a kid was the SNES "Super Advantage" and that practically scarred me for life! To be serious though, even the Hori Hayabusa feels like a disadvantage for shmups due to the far engage distance. Hitting the diagonals feels a lot tougher. I am currently using a Seimitus LS-56 with Kowal short throw mod, balltop, and 1.12 lbf spring. Arcade Shock sells a "Seimitsu LS-56-01-AS Multi Tension Joystick" that includes 5 different springs. I tried the 2 lb spring at first and that felt just a little too stiff for feathery micro movements. I also wanted to like a battop becuase I grew up in American arcades but the balltop feels better to me. I considered Korean based on your recommendation but it sounded like it wouldn't be easy to install in a Hori/Japanese box, and I am not yet comfortable with modding. The Seimitus pops right in. The LS-56 has a longer throw than the LS-32 (which is the standard lever on non-fighting Japanese arcades machines I believe), but the Kowal short-throw mod is cheap and easy to install. Keyboards remind me of work and I just don't have interest in playing shmups with them. However, I am wondering if you tried playing with a good mechanical keyboard, and not just some cheap membrane one? BTW, great point on playing as much as you can with arcade sticks to get comfortable, not just fighting/shmup games. I did a play through of Castlevania: SOTN getting comfortable with mine. That game even has some fighting game inputs to play around with!
Solid stuff! I believe this video answers some of the questions I asked in the comments of that other one a little while ago. When you got near the end to the justifications about why you think stick is best, talking about circular motion... It reminded me of a discussion I got in on the shmups forum in 2008 about this same topic (I don't really go to the shmups forum anymore), and then I remembered that at that time, I made a video of myself demonstrating doing circular motions with a keyboard. I guess youtube pulled it over from google video, and I just marked it as unlisted in case you wanna check it out. I recorded this back in 2008 ruclips.net/video/9ZanphZhjgo/видео.html I don't claim to be good at shmups or anything. But I do feel keyboard is a viable input. Come to think of it, I already had an advantage before I started playing shmups with keyboard... I'll explain: Back in the mid 90's, there was a PC game called Hexen. I originally played it with gravis gamepad, but when I started playing modem to modem games with my friend, he would always kick my ass. Then he taught me how to play with keyboard, with fingers positioned on the numpad (8,4, 6, 2) like I mentioned on the other post. After that, Hexen became one of my favorite games ever, and my friend and I played co-operative games of Hexen, finishing the game together multiple times over a period of several years. In that game, the character I played was the cleric, which was mostly melee attacks, so you're having to strafe a lot, back up, side to side, basically circular type of movements... So if you look at muscle memory and motor control stuff, it's like I was already training in the 90's, for what would eventually become my preferred input method for shmups in the late 2000's. :-D With all that being said, my reluctance to want to learn arcade stick because of the learning curve, makes a pretty good parallel to why other people wouldn't really want to learn keyboard because of its learning curve for doing circular movements and stuff. Especially since there's (apparently?) not many other people doing that. (I don't really watch shmup replays or anything like that very often. I'm kind of a casual enthusiast at best). But I guess the point of me posting this now is to let the record be shown that keyboard can definitely be a kickass input method for shmups :) Oh, and also just to give D-Pad a little love... I think D-Pad can be really great for shmups (as long as it's a not shitty D-Pad... and I'm really picky about D-Pads), but yeah, the fatigue is real. Especially if you're playing a lot over some days or weeks. At one point after I started playing bullet hells a lot and was using D-Pad before I went to keyboard, I got the tendonitis thing going, almost like someone was sticking a needle right in the middle of my thumb right above the bottom joint. So yeah, that's just not sustainable. Also, just throwing it out there: Best D-Pad ever is on the Hori Anashin controller for PS2. Although I'd be curious to see how the D-Pad feels on the Hori Fighting commanders, I haven't had a chance to get my hands on one yet. D-Pad still reigns supreme for 2D Platformers, and I will most likely take that statement to the grave :) Anyway, I believe I have spammed your comments section enough for now :) Peace!
Hey my dude, I love detailed comments like this :-D I hope my video didn't seem like I don't think keyboard is a strong input method for shmups, because that is definitely not the case. There are ALOT of top-tier shmup players who use keyboard and it is clear their level of play is just as good as on stick (like Prometheus, Juju, ZPS, and more). I can't remember my exact words in the video, but I do think that the difference between the two is extremely thin and that a player could achieve incredible scores on both. :-)
@@TheElectricUnderground For sure. You definitely didn't trash the keyboard like some stick purists do. I believe you gave it respect, considering that it seems to be the most alien or unfamiliar of the input methods for you. Much respect :)
![Felix "Unfair" | [Stray Kids : SKZ-PLAYER]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/Oswujxm2Ag0/mqdefault.jpg)
Dont care whats most precise stick makes you feel like you own an arcade so for fun factor alone it wins
I think it's great advice to start learning arcade stick on games that don't require advance techniques. Too many of my buddies finally grab an arcade stick for a fighting game they've played for years on d-pad and are instantly turned off by how bad their execution is on them.
Yeah for sure! It s a process to learn stick, not a quick change.
Keyboard user here.
You actually give a pretty fair view of the keyboard imo. It is really good for precision, but suffers if it comes down to stamina.
Even if you use the keyboard for years, there is still the risk of carpal tunnel if you do too exhausting grinding sessions (best example I can think of is when Mino tried to LNN TH6 and grinded for many hours daily. Poor guy couldn't properly play without bad pain for weeks I believe).
Thus it is important to take breaks and not strain the hands too much.
I use a bit of the weight of my hand to press the keys, so I use my entire hand and not only the fingers. It looks weird, but it works for me.
I haven't been able to really use an arcade stick, so I don't know if that suits me personally.
Controllers are a bit weird for me with how the controls work, but it's nothing that can't be fixed by practice. I mean, if I could learn Tetris on a controller, why not other games?
Though the most bizarre method of control belongs to Creepyninja_. He uses a keyboard, but he plays with his hands crossed! (There are videos with handcam on his channel, but they are few and far between)
What surprises me most about it though is that he can somehow perform well with his control method!
Thanks for the feedback and tuning in! I 'll have to check out that cross hand method, sounds interesting ha.
@@TheElectricUnderground What's your opinion on the Hitbox?
@@Klugdeph ayo fellow left handed touhou player hear and I went through a similar thing although i never used the cross hand method and instead just forced myself to play right-handed for a while until I could find a way to do the keyboard binds and play with wasd although I do plan in the future to build myself a custom mix box type of controller
K E Y B O A R D G A N G
I used to play on pad, but then I gave keyboard a shot out of necessity and never looked back (at least for shmups). It makes me feel the most in control, and doesn't wear out my hands as quickly. But I have to say, playing Psyvariar really showcased how lacking keyboard is when it comes time to pull off some circular movement. In most shmups this isn't a huge deal-breaker, but circular and arcing movement is huge in Psyvariar, and keyboard feels very clumsy. On the flipside, old-school shmups like Raiden, SameSameSame and perhaps Psikyo really play to the keyboard's strength, it might be the best device for those games.
I'm not sure if this is just from me using WASD or a lack of finger dexterity, but another drawback I've noticed is how difficult it can be to quickly switch from W to S in the heat of the moment.
4 years in the future and the WS issue is pretty easy to avoid with an ortholinear layout with light low profile switches like Kailh Choc Pink, you can just rock your middle finger back and forth
4 years from the future and I have a lot of advice when it comes to keyboard play, there's three primary factors to the ergonomics especially when playing game. The actuation force (how hard you need to press), the key travel (how far you can press the key) and the layout of the keyboard. The works keyboards are your standard office keyboards that probably came with your computer, they usually fail on all three metrics, though some newer office keyboards have low profile scissor switch mechanisms from laptops.
It doesn't feel as satisfying but you want the lightest mechanical, linear keys in an ortholinear layout, a bowl shape and split. This will also alleviate pretty much all issues with typing. The bowl shape can be sacrificed for cost reasons but ortholinear and split are game changers. Bonus points for low profile switches like Kailh Chocs. Some notable ergonomic keyboards are:
Glove 80
Kinesis Advantage
Ergodox
Dactyl Manuform
Corne
Iris
As far as the keyboard goes, you should NOT be experiencing any pain. All of that comes down to understanding ergonomics, and sitting at a desk with a keyboard is probably the most discussed, so the information is easy to find. What you are specifically describing seems like your wrists are not up, but are resting on the edge of the keyboard/desk. You generally want your wrist straight (think of throwing a punch), and if anything you want your fingers to naturally curve down, just like if you completely relaxed them. So if that is you and you insist on your wrists resting on something then you should get something that is higher than the keyboard so your wrists are not bent.
You said you play instruments, so the same applies: if you can't do it completely relaxed you are doing something wrong. Any pain means you need to stop IMMEDIATELY and figure out what is causing it. I've done music and type on a keyboard for decades without issue and if your ergonomics are on point you will never have to worry about things like carpal tunnel.
The circular movement is an interesting point. As a keyboard primary I found it a lot easier to do circular movements, often getting into slightly curved bullet 'lanes' like in EspRaDe or Espgaluda compared to similar patterns on keyboard.
On the topic of buffering, there is an interesting technique you can use. In games in which pressing both left and right *favours* a direction (for example, touhou games after EoSD have you move left if both left and right are activated) you can use this to adjust, say, if you have to make a circular movement but have to stay close to a set of bullets to graze it. While moving rightwards and towards the bullets, instead of watching for 'safe' locations and directing your rightward movement in that manner, you can instead look at if your character is particularly close to the bullet hitboxes and tap the left key to modulate how close you are from dying. It's a very minor technique, but in games which involve you grazing in a circular manner it's a pretty useful technique since you adjust your entire left/right movement via use of 1 key, which allows for some pretty insane precision.
Another part of keyboard play that is quite important is that unless I require max speed of my character, I will always tap my way to a location because it allows me to control my velocity, which is a bit harder on stick where tapping seems to be reserved for when it's required due to it being more difficult.
Great video as always.
That s cool to hear about the buffering! I came up with an insane input buffering thing that I 'll have to show off in a vid at some point :-)
Im D-Pad user as well. I mostly use X360 or Sega Saturn controller.
I feel way more comfortable and confident with controller, than on keyboard or Arcade stick.
I actually play most (PC) Games with controller, except a few exception. Thats because I have problems playing/using a keyboard, and for Arcade sticks im not sure. I havent really used them much yet, because I dont have one and the only place Im able to use them is at a gaming meetup.
Also, the thing with some D-Pads, for example the X360 or Switch Pro controller is, it takes some time to get used to them and if you use them over time more and more, they get less stiff and more smooth.
"5h session"
I cant play more than 3-4h per day, especially when it comes to shmups where I play like 2-3h per day.
"Maybe if you're younger, N64, PS2"......... ◉_◉ (quietly hiding my NES controller under the carpet) :-D
Ha! I think my viewer demographic is like 20% under 21, 50% 21-32, and 30% 33 and above, so the channel has a pretty healthy spread of age demographics I think :-)
@@TheElectricUnderground I'll be 40 next year, so I'm increasingly the grandpa in online communities and stuff these days ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Interesting video. A good input method I don't see mention too often is the analog stick on modern controllers, it's surprinzingly effective ! Very good for doing curves and arching movements, and very natural to learn for most modern console gamers. It's really natural imo, and I have no issues doing clean diagonals. Maybe not the most popular method but I enjoy it quite a lot
Also depending on how you code it instead of a cardinal direction being a binary on/off switch you can take advantage of the fact it is analog and get very precise and small movements in every possible direction. Mastery means you can effectively control your speed, and because of this I can't discount it as a viable option for shmups.
I have to say mate, I’m well chuffed to be coming home from work everyday with a new E.U video to watch while I have my tea. If you are gonna keep this up I will probably become a patron.
Ha well good news is that the pace will continue for another week or so, because I m catching up on topics. It s a safe bet to say that my output will remain fairly high for quite a while.
Please do. Mark is the hardest working person I've seen representing the SHMUP scene. If you care about the genre and it's representation it will be hard to find someone else who goes harder for it. He's also helpful and responds to everything.
@@J4k3_Ry4n dude 300% with you. From being a shmup aficionado, flirting in Mame here and there, buying shmups in itch io… to spent in less than 1 month almost £200 In proper shmups. I am remembering why I love video games and this fella is guiding
I wonder why you omitted thumb sticks. What's your opinion on thise for shumps?
Glad I found your channel. A true Shmups player. Great video.
Thanks for watching!
vertical shmups = Arcadestick
horizontal shmups = dpad
is my favorite set up
Great video - your comments on fatigue match my own experience. I moved from keyboard to controller, but my thumb gets tired very quickly. I imagine keyboard fatigue could possibly be alleviated by remapping buttons to use your thumb as well as fingers with your hand in a more natural position, but I've not tried it. Still on the fence about getting an arcade stick - I might have to upgrade my bladder too if I don't want to bottle neck the potential endurance gain of a stick XD
Ha awesome :-) cyborg strats
You pick up a really good point about muscle memory and fight sticks. I'm so used to right handed sticks, during pre crash era, that I feel that there is literally no off the shelf controller for me.
Which hand you use is important. Your right hand is better for most players. And that's exactly why the Japanese was enforcing left hand stick, to shorten credits to make more money when arcade was the primary economy for games.
I find joysticks (and right handed ones) the best is because the mechanisms prevents unwanted diagonals.
Love the Genesis 6 button and the JP style Saturn 6 button. Sticks are fun too of course. Trying to play stick more these days. I play Street Fighter with a HitBox. Wonder if the HitBox could be viable in Shmups. Anyone out there use a HitBox?
Saturn is best dpad by far. I have a hitbox for Tekken and it's top tier for direction input speed. Would take some time commiting the up direction button position to muscle memory for shmups but once you've overcome that hurdle I reckon it'd be very useful. Dragon slay make a fight pad that I think is a rebranded hori product. Cheap feeling pad but dpad is very good and a little like the Saturn and Genesis and works on pc and PS4.
Funny thing, I always played with D-pad and was really fond of circular models (Mega Drive and Saturn). After a long hiatus, I restarted to play shmups but both Nintendo Pro Controller and PlayStation DualShock used to hurt my thumbs after long sessions. Then I tried with Arcade Sticks, but a wrong choice (Mayflash) ultimately doomed the experience (the Seimitsu stick worked like a wonder though). The saviour was the recent 8bitdo M-30, a sort of hybrid between the Mega Drive and the Saturn controllers, its shape is comfy for my hands and the circular D-pad is good. I can play up to two hours without problems with it! Maybe I will give arcade sticks another try, but for now I am still with d-pad team.
I like the M-30 as well.
Nine months since I got into shmups, and I've only used a stick for the first month and then moved on to a gamepad. I used a Dual Shock 4 for about seven months and then bought an 8BitDo Pro 2 after the Dual Shock 4's D-pad started acting up.
My only gripe with gamepads is the potential for inaccurate diagonal inputs. But the overall ease and ergonomic comfort is why I mainly use them. This is especially useful for me in Crimzon Clover where I set the lock-on to a shoulder button.
My arcade stick experience hasn't been that very excellent as I started with the Hori Fighting Stick Mini which is too small for my big hands. There is definitely a slower input, but hey my first few novice 1CCs like Mushihimesama were acquired with that stick so it wasn't all too bad. I am trying to borrow a bigger arcade stick from a friend just to see if a bigger stick would be more comfortable for me to play longer on.
I do want to try keyboards, but I find it a chore to try to find a way to map keyboard inputs with WASD considering that most shmups' control mapping would default to the arrow keys for movement.
Probably a weird request, but since I got an injury during past year in my left ribs and recovered from it, I switched my traditional way of playing shmups (Regular Analog on Controller) to keyboard (Directional Keys for movement, ASD for actions) so I could evade the pain and slowly recover, but now I play better than I used to in my controller since my right hand is better trained in the ship’s movement
Does exist some kind of controller WHERE the main analog/D-Pad are located in the RIGHT side of the controller? Not the left side since it is now my “lazy” hand and just keeps the Shot button pressed
Hi Felipe, I m sorry to hear about your injury. Maybe you could build a custom arcade stick where the lever is on the right side? That should be doable
Arcade stick not being as fatigued is why I love it, but this isn’t very true with super long throws like the Sanwa JLF or the HORI Hayabusa.
Problem is you gotta put it in the time and every stick feels different.
I’m switching from Sanwa JLF to a Seimitsu LS-40, and I’m encountering a weird issue with dashing to the right and sometimes getting stuck on the microswitch, this is a big problem with KOF 2K2UM MAX Mode combos.
It doesn’t happen with other directions.
Just curious, what is a long throw?
Do you have the PCB version LS-40-01 or the harness type LS-40?
Do you mean the direction get's stuck or that it sort of gets hooked on the switch?
Take the actuator in your hands and feel the edge at the wide end? If you feel a sharp edge of extra material, that is where it hooks the microswitch. Remove the extra material carefully and it will work perfectly.
If it's an uneven activation issue so that one direction activates earlier than other directions and you have a harness type ls-40 take the harness out and place them carefully so that all of them are in the exact same position because there can be a little play in the angle of the switch.
Uneven activation shouldn't happen on a PCB version but resoldering the switches would fix it.
@@voutespancar A throw is the distance to the switches. When you buy an arcade stick it will propably have either a Sanwa JLF or a Hori Hayabusa that are both longer throw joysticks than Seimitsu sticks.
A longer throw has more room in the neutral so you don't accidentally hit an opposite direction when returning to neutral during fast movements but you have to work a lot more because the distance to the switches is longer.
There really aren't any negatives to a shorter throw stick like the LS-32 or an LS-40. They are both easy to control around the neutral and hitting the switches is fast because they are closer. The LS-32 has a medium/short throw and the LS-40 has a short throw. But it all comes down to preference.
@@arcadedbeast yeah, getting hooked on the switch. It’s my main problem.
It is the Seimitsu LS-40. Non-PCB type.
DId the Westernn record holder who used the XBOX 360 controller you mentioned do it using the D-pad on that controller or the analog stick? BTW cool to hear you play guitar as well, I've played my whole life but am pretty new to the Shmups party.
He used the dpad, pretty crazy ha
thoughts on arcade stick for mortal kombat 1 or 11
Great video! I'm a mostly D-pad guy, but I will sometime try the stick.
Hey man, great video+topic. I come back to this one often, dealt with the same when it comes to control methods I prefer. Wanted to offer additional subjective reasons why, and perhaps others, prefer keys/keyboard and not just for shmups.
You mentioned that some of your physical activities like tennis and playing instruments ties back well to stick, if I understand, as an extension to your body and having greater control of movement. I feel very much the same when it comes to face buttons (finger per key), I just copy this concept to my movement inputs (wasd, finger per key). I play bass, and to achieve the most accurate and economic movement possible, my fretting fingers are usually spread 1 per fret. I could say the same for piano, but even drums in the way because of how spread apart they are. (I dedicate a limb per drum/cymbal, and so the strike will always land where I mean it to). So it's a point of limiting how much movement I have to make to actuate the input.
Second is like you say, we have bias to what we grew up with. And my theory is that a LOT of us who grew up in late 90s/early 2000s had but a computer, no consoles! My household didn't actually have a console until I was 13, but we all had desktop PCs. And most games I played were keyboard only! Free-to-play games hosted online flourished, even Flash games. Just thought this part of history of people gaming tends to be forgotten.
Also the last opinion's actually one of comfort, I use a mini portable keyboard. My hand posture feels more relaxed on keyboard, than gripping a controller or fight stick. I feel like I can even play on my back, because my hands are just resting on the keyboard, arms either straight or only slightly bent. I don't know why, but I instinctively hold up a controller in the air, elbow bent at like a 90 deg angle, and both my thumb joints get tired. And a fight stick... It's just cumbersome to me, man 😂 it's like if I went back to using one of those flight stick joysticks we used to use on PC for fps games. Like when all PC controllers were just gigantic. It's cool but it takes so much more work vs a light touch in one direction. I understand this is also subjective per one's posture and build.
Cheers
I started with gamepad as I didn't play computer games until I bought a laptop last year. Funny thing is that I used the joystick instead of the D-pad, since I didn't know the pad players used D-pad. Not sure how the joystick measures up with the D-pad and arcade stick.
Nowadays I'm playing on keyboard, but I only play one run a day since I don't have much time. Maybe once I get more free time I'll need to learn how to use an arcade stick, but until then I'll stick to keyboard.
Also, it's nice to see that you are getting so many comments now! It seems like you get at least 20 comments on every video.
If you see this before Shmup Slam, good luck on your run!
How can I put Seimitsu joystick on a Steam Deck? thanks!
recently using d pad & flipgrip for my switch , playing 1945 gunbird espdarepsi , btw planning to get a best arcade stick for it , any recommend ? btw me staying at Asia Hong Kong , thanks for the video also , hard to find Shmups youtuber with lot of experience at youtube nowadays , like the way u explain , solid ! 👍🏻
that said, I've seen people rec octogonal gates for shmups. Are they like, "better"?
The math doesn't work out because the octo gate is smaller on the diagonals if I remember right, there are charts for that kinda thing if you want to fact check.
I'm guessing they want you to ride the gate, which is a bad habit because you're throwing your stick and giving yourself ever so slightly more travel time
I used to play fighters with an arcade stick for years. I thought it would translate well to shmups, but I was trash. I actually just 1cc DDP DFK for the first time yesterday with Xbox One controller on PC. It felt really good and I felt a good level of control over the arcade stick.
Solution to the poor ergonomics of a keyboard: use a split ergo keyboard with lighter switches, tenting, and a proper desk setup so you don't put any stress on your wrists and don't tire out your fingers. This is ultimately a project on the same tier as building your own arcade stick, with a lot of research and work required to get the best result. Most of the popular ergo keyboards don't have dedicated arrow keys, so if you want to play shooting games you'll need to get deep into custom remapping in your game / emulator, hack together an AutoHotKey script, or tweak your keyboard's firmware. Or possibly some combination of all three. This probably makes more sense if you're already a keyboard ninja that likes vim keybindings, since you can also use your keyboard at work to potentially increase your productivity. Does it actually make you better at shmups? No, but it's a lot of fun.
For the record, I have movement on IJKL, and my buttons on ASDFG. I've been intending to put bomb on one of my thumb keys. The goal is to never move my hands off of the home row, unless I really need to, and then place my keyboard and arms so that they're as comfortable as possible.
I think the real lesson here is to take regular breaks regardless of your input method, just like the safety manuals that come with all of our games say to do.
Still, I'm interested in picking up a used arcade stick sometime, especially since I know how to solder now so my repair and mod options have opened up quite a bit.
I've been gaming on controller for over 30 years now, and never really hard arcade, so arcade sticks do feel pretty foreign to me. I've also transitioned to PC gaming about 10 years ago and still haven't been able to adopt the keyboard. I use a hybrid control scheme of a half-controller that fits in one hand and a mouse in my right. I am considering its replacement now as it is starting to wear out and was considering something of a hitbox setup, but for the left hand only, and tilted 30-45 degrees to actually make it more ergonomic. Yeah, gaming keypads do exist but, they don't offer much benefit over a keyboard in terms of comfort.
The discomfort you notice from keyboard use is almost entirely attributed to pronating of the hand (facing the palm downwards). You can hold your palm flat on your desk and do nothing else with it and feel strain when compared to resting your hand on the outside edge.
Yeah I ve noticed that even with proper form I tend to get sore hands using keyboard, but I think this might be due to injuries to my hands in the past
@@TheElectricUnderground Nah, it's actually pretty normal.. that's why you see so many efforts to create "ergonomic" keyboards. And there's biological science to back this up.
Pronating the hands downwards does put strain on the arm, it actually causes the radius and ulna to cross eachother, press into eachother, and press the nerves and tendons in between.
Long story short, avoid it whenever possible. Do not game on keyboards. As for typing, not sure what we can do. Ergo keyboards usually suck for one reason or another.
You mede some really solid points. Especially regarding arcade sticks. I originally switched from controllers to stick because the d-pad was just tearing my thumb apart after 20 minutes. Switching to stick I can play up to 2 hours no problem now. Unfortunately, I learned Dragon Ball fighterz on a sn30 pro pad. So it made the transition over to stick so much harder that I had to quit playing for three months to lose that muscle memory. And now that I rebuilt it on stick, it's just a vastly easier experience. I love d-pad and sick for Platformers, shoot em ups, and Beat'me Up. But im strictly stick for fighting games now. Great job on the video!
Hello, I got a Krom Kumite arcade stick, but I'm new to arcade sticks, is it good, may you point something better and cheap at the same time these days?
I am glad I discovered your channel,you provide alot of great knowledge and insight on the Shmup genre. I come to love playing Shmups on the switch, and i was wondering if you would recommend the hori line that is available for the switch (mini/regular) Or maybe another stick that is switch friendly.
Yes I think the regular hori stick is a solid buy :-)
One thing to consider with the Hori is they are wired, and attaching to the dock adds a frame of lag, see electricunderground.io/shmup-input-lag-database. Normally I think wireless is more responsive but the Switch is unique in this case due to the dock. However the RAP V is well made and if you want to follow this guide (ruclips.net/video/31aIbVEwjks/видео.html) and mod it someday you will be set. It also works with PC. You can also throw the Switch in a stand and connect it directly to the Switch with a USB C adapter, however silly that might be (theoretically this should reduce the lag). Steer clear of the 8bitdo wireless stick, even though it gets around the dock being wireless it has much more input lag than the pro controller when connecting to the Switch (it is responsive for PC though, go figure). 8bitdo review: ruclips.net/video/-6LEPTpX5BY/видео.html
For anyone reading this, the Hori mini stick is AWFUL AWFUL AWFUL, if it's the same design as the PS4/3 one which it appears to be. It was my first ever stick, I got it to play BlazBlue casually online with friends several years ago back when I only even played Tager, and even I could tell it was not up to snuff. I paid £35 brand new and still felt ripped off. After a couple weeks the bottom right direction stopped registering entirely. Run, don't walk, to the next cheapest alternative.
Great topic, great vid, thanks for making it.
How do you feel about Linne being top tier now in UNICLR?
I play Linne so I m happy as a clam about it :-D ❤
Images to support your claims would have been nice ;)
Mark.. I Have just realised that I have never seen You talk about what is possibly the most addictive shmup on iOS. Bullet hell Monday. Have you played it!?. It is absolutely Amazing!. Give it a fair go because it REALLY warms up once you upgrade your ship and open Challenge and endless modes .
Super detailed breakdown. Great video. The korean sticks sound interesting with the rubber pad for resistance. As mentioned I now have a rap4 hayabusa stick in a Mayflash F500 base and a Semitsu 62 in the old RAP4 base. Im enjoying swapping between the two and experimenting. I installed some Semitsu buttons and still prefer the super responsive sanwas but thats another topic. Im not a shooter specialist so the feedback is extremely useful. I can tell you really have the skill and experience with this genre. The biggest debate in my head was the shorter throw distance of clicking a Dpad as opposed to having to move a stick to hit that click. I always figured pads were superior for that reason alone as its basically adding input lag. The strange thing is I sometimes do better when I switch over to a stick or at worst play about the same. Even when swapping between pad and stick its so subtle, like you said. Im still trying to nail it down. Of course most of my experience is on a pad, but I challenged myself with a stick years back by learning some very hard console and arcade games on the stick. It saved my hands at the time and allowed me to keep grinding, as you said. The stick definately wins when it comes to long grind and endurance sessions. That was my main reason for using it as an alternative initially. I can even play 2D platformers and other genres pretty well on a stick now, but pad still has a clear edge for me on those. Thats more due to my lack of experience with sticks than anything else. I also prefer the Seimitsu 62 stick to the looser hayabusa I was using, for shooters. It was subtle but I noticed I could really make micro adjustments better with that stick. I think the hayabusa will still have its uses. For some reason Gun.smoke felt better with that stick. That game forces you to switch directions hyper aggressively so the looser stick may suite that particular game better. Appreciate the break down.
Yes I think most shmup players prefer siemitsu sticks, especially Japanese players, but my fav is Korean stick for sure :-)
@@TheElectricUnderground Nice. I may have to look into those for a third build, ha ha. These controllers are very addictive. Its always satisfying to mod them. Cant say Im even going to use one over the other but its alot of fun.
I feel ya on the "other console games" point... I got the Mega Drive Arcade Power Stick to use with Thunder Force IV (as well as the Mighty Morphin Power Rangers Movie beat em up), and I tried it on Sonic 3 once out of curiousity. Whoof, never again. Pad all the way.
You know what, while I'm on the subject, don't get that stick except for the novelty. It's not a proper mechanism, it's basically an overgrown pad and it's mushy as hell lol
@@ChrisStoneinator Appreciate the feedback. I would agree with you when talking about the joysticks released by companies like Nintendo and Sega for thier old consoles. Those were real low quality, mushy like you said. I believe most of those had no click when you moved the stick since they didnt use microswitches the way real arcade sticks from arcades do. The sticks ive been using are the ones used in Japanese arcades like Seimitsu. The buttons are also hyper responsive sanwa buttons. They respond to the slightest touch and are the most responsive buttons Ive used on any controller. There is still a learning curve but when I first tried these sticks I was already able to beat some very hard games. It took some practice to match my proficiency with the pad on certain types of games but that gap is definately closing. I prefer the stick now on certain types of games like shooters. Gun.Smoke was a brutal arcade game where the stick really suited the game. Not just the stick but the overhand button layout since you had to hit those fire buttons instantly and cant really do that using your thumb on the 3 buttons.
@@theconsolekiller7113 yes the bit about the sega stick itself was an aside, I didn't wanna be held responsible in case someone took my comment as an endorsement lol. I took it apart to clean it and lubricate it, and indeed it's just a cap on a ball that pivots to hit a rubber dome in each direction, like a d-pad
I need to work on my endurance on video gaming in general. I run out of energy/interest pretty quick. I play regularly though, pretty much daily.
stick has the X factor of feeling like being in an arcade.
Arcade stick seems fun, and challenging but more limited on the techniques you can use. Keyboard can press multiple keys for many different techniques. Keyboard does fatigue you, I assumed arcade stick would fatigue you more because of it being bigger but I guess not because you are using more muscles.
I can't believe I'm on the minority for using a Thumbstick to play shmups it's not even mentioned XD... I can't afford an arcade stick and I've tried playing with d-pad and keyboard but the movements just doesn't feel natural to the point that it's quite unsatisfying to play. So I just stick with the analog stick. Yes it has problems with accuracy and micrododging at first,but ofcourse with practice and getting used to, It works for me...
I had to scroll al this way to find someone else ghehe. I used to play pad on my 8bitdoSNES, but then I switched to playing some ports on PSX and PS2 and I couldn't get used to the dualshock d-pad. Also I have a 360 controller for my pc and that d-pad to me is horrid. So naturally I started gravitating towards the analog stick. It works well for me, apart from the times i slip off. Glad it doesn't happen often. For grip I prefer the 360 controller to the PS2. Both are worn.
Imo, the best option would be the digital tablets, but unfortunately they are exclusive to pc, expensive and it's hard to find games that accepts digital tablets' input
that is exactly why I want to switch to stick! my thumb cant take the beating. back dashing and electrics are killing my thumb. I want a good stick....
this is great insight and i agree hitbox being advertised as ergonomic is bullshit, because pad controllers are way more ergonomic. the problem is we use all 8 or 10 buttons on controller (d-pad and face buttons) with only two thumbs which leads to fatigue buildup. in theory we can alleviate this issue by using only left and right d-pad and move the up and down to L and ZL or back button, the more finger we use the better, i think.
Last week i played ESP rade on the switch using the joycons, had a horrible time.
yeah no kidding!
Considering the stamina you need to properly play shmups, I do think arcade sticks the most ideal. playing Battle Garegga 8 hours straight with the Dualshock 4 hurts my left thumb for 2 days.
I use all of them depending of the game... but I do play all types of games...
I got tendon problems playing Guilty Gear Strive on dpad. Millia Rage specifically so I cant imagine Tekken on dpad. New keyboard technology I would think will push it over to the ideal input method. Near instant feedback because of the technology in switches. You also get switches that are less heavy so better for long sessions with input heavy games. Seen a specail keypad for Osu! designed to be played for hours with near instant inputs. I have a wooting 60% keyboard coming so I will feel how this technology works.
I think it also matters which controller you use, I LOVE the saturn pad, but at the same time HATE the Xbox one controller, to me its dpad placement is uncomfortable, and I feel like I don't do as good on the xbox one controller when using the dpad as I do on the Saturn pad, I think something else that matters on the stick is the type of gate you use, I remember when I was playing Ikaruga I could definitely tell there would be a benefit of the octagonal gate when I was in situations where enemies are circling around me and I have to get through circles and circles of enemies, an octagonal gate would definitely be more accurate in certain situations then a square gate would be.
Yes fun fact jaimers plays on Saturn pad and he s an absolute beast!
i'm Keyboard user(both STG and fighting games). especially right handed movement(arrow keys fo movement instead WASD) my right hand reflex pretty quick and feels comfrtable for movement). i want to try Saturn pad(i have pre-order it on my country) cuz i heard Junkies and Jaimers like Saturn pad and also Saturn pad seems like Genesis pad which is nostalgic for me when i touching a console controller platform for the first time while i play Raiden Trad on genesis port. it seems i'll try touhou and DFK to make used to the Saturn pad. honestly i want to pick up Arcade stick but Arcade with that kind of game was no longer exist on my country. and also Arcade stick was extremely expensive here.
Oh yes I love the Saturn pad! It s my fav pad for shmups by far
@@TheElectricUnderground glad i pick that up. gonna try make use to it.
Option D: hitbox
Always keyboard for me!
Nothing wrong with that
The neck-beard of justice strikes agaiiiiiiiiin.
keyboard represent!!!!
I love how you cover all the angles. If I was asked this question I would only be thinking in terms of accuracy and top-end performance. Well done!
I am currently making the transition to stick myself. I agree that the wrong stick makes the already difficult transition even tougher. My first stick as a kid was the SNES "Super Advantage" and that practically scarred me for life! To be serious though, even the Hori Hayabusa feels like a disadvantage for shmups due to the far engage distance. Hitting the diagonals feels a lot tougher. I am currently using a Seimitus LS-56 with Kowal short throw mod, balltop, and 1.12 lbf spring. Arcade Shock sells a "Seimitsu LS-56-01-AS Multi Tension Joystick" that includes 5 different springs. I tried the 2 lb spring at first and that felt just a little too stiff for feathery micro movements. I also wanted to like a battop becuase I grew up in American arcades but the balltop feels better to me. I considered Korean based on your recommendation but it sounded like it wouldn't be easy to install in a Hori/Japanese box, and I am not yet comfortable with modding. The Seimitus pops right in. The LS-56 has a longer throw than the LS-32 (which is the standard lever on non-fighting Japanese arcades machines I believe), but the Kowal short-throw mod is cheap and easy to install.
Keyboards remind me of work and I just don't have interest in playing shmups with them. However, I am wondering if you tried playing with a good mechanical keyboard, and not just some cheap membrane one?
BTW, great point on playing as much as you can with arcade sticks to get comfortable, not just fighting/shmup games. I did a play through of Castlevania: SOTN getting comfortable with mine. That game even has some fighting game inputs to play around with!
I'm playing onkeyboard because that's what I've got, but I want to pay for an acrylic laser cutting services and get an arcade stick.
Solid stuff! I believe this video answers some of the questions I asked in the comments of that other one a little while ago. When you got near the end to the justifications about why you think stick is best, talking about circular motion... It reminded me of a discussion I got in on the shmups forum in 2008 about this same topic (I don't really go to the shmups forum anymore), and then I remembered that at that time, I made a video of myself demonstrating doing circular motions with a keyboard. I guess youtube pulled it over from google video, and I just marked it as unlisted in case you wanna check it out. I recorded this back in 2008
ruclips.net/video/9ZanphZhjgo/видео.html
I don't claim to be good at shmups or anything. But I do feel keyboard is a viable input. Come to think of it, I already had an advantage before I started playing shmups with keyboard... I'll explain: Back in the mid 90's, there was a PC game called Hexen. I originally played it with gravis gamepad, but when I started playing modem to modem games with my friend, he would always kick my ass. Then he taught me how to play with keyboard, with fingers positioned on the numpad (8,4, 6, 2) like I mentioned on the other post. After that, Hexen became one of my favorite games ever, and my friend and I played co-operative games of Hexen, finishing the game together multiple times over a period of several years. In that game, the character I played was the cleric, which was mostly melee attacks, so you're having to strafe a lot, back up, side to side, basically circular type of movements... So if you look at muscle memory and motor control stuff, it's like I was already training in the 90's, for what would eventually become my preferred input method for shmups in the late 2000's. :-D
With all that being said, my reluctance to want to learn arcade stick because of the learning curve, makes a pretty good parallel to why other people wouldn't really want to learn keyboard because of its learning curve for doing circular movements and stuff. Especially since there's (apparently?) not many other people doing that. (I don't really watch shmup replays or anything like that very often. I'm kind of a casual enthusiast at best). But I guess the point of me posting this now is to let the record be shown that keyboard can definitely be a kickass input method for shmups :)
Oh, and also just to give D-Pad a little love... I think D-Pad can be really great for shmups (as long as it's a not shitty D-Pad... and I'm really picky about D-Pads), but yeah, the fatigue is real. Especially if you're playing a lot over some days or weeks. At one point after I started playing bullet hells a lot and was using D-Pad before I went to keyboard, I got the tendonitis thing going, almost like someone was sticking a needle right in the middle of my thumb right above the bottom joint. So yeah, that's just not sustainable. Also, just throwing it out there: Best D-Pad ever is on the Hori Anashin controller for PS2. Although I'd be curious to see how the D-Pad feels on the Hori Fighting commanders, I haven't had a chance to get my hands on one yet. D-Pad still reigns supreme for 2D Platformers, and I will most likely take that statement to the grave :)
Anyway, I believe I have spammed your comments section enough for now :) Peace!
Hey my dude, I love detailed comments like this :-D I hope my video didn't seem like I don't think keyboard is a strong input method for shmups, because that is definitely not the case. There are ALOT of top-tier shmup players who use keyboard and it is clear their level of play is just as good as on stick (like Prometheus, Juju, ZPS, and more). I can't remember my exact words in the video, but I do think that the difference between the two is extremely thin and that a player could achieve incredible scores on both. :-)
@@TheElectricUnderground For sure. You definitely didn't trash the keyboard like some stick purists do. I believe you gave it respect, considering that it seems to be the most alien or unfamiliar of the input methods for you. Much respect :)
Fight the game, not the controller
i think gus 360 pad is modded !!
Политика 2.0 сила!