Where to Start with Shmups? Setting Expectations, Scoring vs Survival || Patreon vid for Nathaniel
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- Опубликовано: 8 сен 2024
- This is a $5 patreon topic video for Nathaniel Davis
/ electricunderground
Gameplay is Dodonpachi DFK Black Label Arrange (Ketsupatchi)
STG Revision 2020 Discord:
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My wife has never been impressed by my survival skills OR my high scores. I keep telling her how good I am at bubble bobble now and she doesn't seem to be as impressed with me as when I fix the furnace or take out the trash.
first of all you play because its fun.
its fun to get overwhelmed by the bullet patterns its fun to explore the mechanics.
second step is to live long enough.
and the third step is to play for score 😎
Nailed it! Ha for sure, if you're not having fun with the game, there isn't going to be that sustained motivation to keep coming back after getting destroyed over and over.
An important thing to highlight is that not only should you play the games that pull you in the most, but you should also not play the games that don't pull you in. I think a lot of newer players can easily get trapped in the 'oh these are the voted objectively best shmups so I should play those' mentality, and it's probably something not limited to new players either. Play games that are enjoyable to you, don't play games that you don't enjoy just because you need X goal in a game everyone ranks highly on the shmup of the year poll. (Of course, there is a caveat to this - some games do require you to sink your teeth into somewhat to actually experience the game as intended, so when I say 'play' I mean dedicating more than just a few credits to the game along the lines of 15+ hours.)
It's just something that sprang to mind since I saw a player who got a decently high level goal in a game who's comments on getting this run were that they were glad they didn't have to play the game anymore.
Yeah for sure man! Even amazing shmups like DDP are not going to be the right fit for everyone! I do think that finding that right game is a super important part of getting into the genre :-) That's funny you mention that you've seen players saying they were glad they didn't have to play a certain shmup anymore, I felt that way with DDP after the 2-all, just because the grind was so brutal. A week or two later though, I was like, "man, I'm not even close to being finished with DDP." Ha the same holds true with Dan 3, which most people in shmups tend to write off as not a great game, but it really appeals to my taste. Thanks for watching my dude!
omg your intro was too real, I historically have been only learning fighting games at a lets call it *hardcore* level compared to mainstream, literally discovered Shmups this year and at some point I realized - oh man this is basically like fighting game level stuff but on a single player playing field
Yeah I think it s a great comparison
Really nice to hear it affirmed that it's all good to play for survival. I'm just getting into these games. 1ccing is just a more tangible goal to set than "get a high score". A high score requires so much more context than a 1cc. I can go from a 3cc to a 2cc, to a 1cc, and I can explain all of this to friends when talking about the games I'm playing. For me, even considering 1ccs for arcade games was revolutionary! Playing for high score is obvious, every cabinet put it front and center when I got the game over, but when you suck at arcade games do you even care to interact with that screen unless you're high on the screen? I didn't...
Great topic because I find myself in the middle. I lean towards 1CC/Survival however I love games with scoring mechanics that nudges you into playing in an interesting way like Ikaruga/Radiant Silvergun, Ketsui, Super Fantasy Zone and Battle Garegga to name a few.
I think playing for score alone has very limited appeal but I think more games should find more unique ways for players to engage with the game on a mechanical level. I like the non linear progression and beam clashing of Darius games, the sheer amount of weapons in Ginga Force/Natsuki Chronicles, the ShotTriggers various Arrange modes or the variety of ships Batrider offers.
Imperishable Night is a really good score game but also incredibly complicated.
Anyway I'd say play for survival first then score, because good survival is basically a requirement for good scoring in every game.
Yeah for sure me too! My goal is to be good enough one day to learn them both at the same time very quickly, but I'm not quiet there yet ha.
Same reasons here for playing Shmups. I was playing a ton of fighting games and was so burned out on Street Fighter 5. I have always liked shmups since Gunsmoke was my "its not my turn" game at the arcade. Right now I'm addicted to Giga Wing 2, ESP1, and DodonPachi. Only playing them for survival now.
Looking forward to trying Garegga later this week. Never tried it at all.
Man these videos have so much meat on the bone. I’ve been perusing for a few weeks now and you hit every topic I start thinking about whenever I hit a wall. Playing Danmaku on switch now✊
Really depends on the type of shooter a person picks up though. If you're into old school shmups, scoring sometimes isn't nearly as cool of a goal. Old school scoring systems CAN be rather dull.
If a game has interesting/fun scoring mechanics then I often dive into scoring straight away. For some shmups I think this is where the most value lies.
Overall I'm a big fan of shmups where scoring and survival are directly compatible goals, even if it's just a case of score being linked to extends. In my recent esprade clear i took a kind of hybrid approach - I learned enough scoring to make sure I get both extends, and then routed for the clear. This ended up being a really satisfying learning curve for me!
I dig it man! I do the same with DOJ ha. I think that games that reward score play with survival rewards (like extends) are really smart design because they give the player a taste of the points and how delicious they are.
that was very inspirational. thanks, dude.
I'm really glad to hear that my dude!! Yeah, I'm hoping that this perspective will resonate with people, so it doesn't feel like players have to learn the genre all at once.
I always feel very caught on whether to play for score or survival. Often, you're rewarded with more lives if you score better, so I try to do both. But honestly, I've yet to 1CC a danmaku shooter, even the easy ones, because it feels "frowned upon" or "shameful" to play on a lower difficulty, or even panic-bomb.
I just found your channel, by the way. I recently reignited my love for the genre and I really love your content. I wish there were resources and views like this when I started my journey as a teen in the 360 era. Keep up the awesome content, dude.
My evolution in shmups went Space Invaders -> Asteroids -> Galaxian -> Galaga -> Moon Cresta -> Xevious -> Terra Cresta -> Slap Fight / Alcon -> Twin Cobra -> Raiden and then into the more modern bullet hell type shmups from there. I've always loved the genre and my love has grown as it's grown and diversified. I still righteously suck at shmups just like I suck at most game genres, but I absolutely love playing them. The background and enemy designs have always held my attention, particularly in the pixel art side of things. 3D shmups don't really grab me that much.
Hello there Ketsupachi! I remember when I got yelled at by my big brother for getting a 360 instead of a One. (from before DFK Steam was a thing)
I tend to play for score subconsciously as soon as i start. I feel better admittedly Game Over-ing to a low area count but a respectable enough score that is parallel to that point in the game for superplayers.
Mushi Futari is a good surviving=scoring deal for Original/Ultra since it uses a Takumi (Giga Wang/Go Play Mars Matrix) style multiplier that changes colors to tell you which shot to use.
Another thing about scoring to me is that i'm absolutely terrible at using sticks. I'm a keyboard virgin. Not a stick chad. Here in the Philippines, shmups are extremely rare to come by in Arcades. But when i do find one. I want to leave my initials on the top.
Thank you Mr. Electrix
360 has a bunch of great shmups that never saw a newer release, so as a shmup fan the 360 is way more worth than the One.
Also, if you want to leave a high score in the arcade, won't you need to learn to play with the stick?
Yeah. Shmups here are incredibly rare. I'm not done with high school yet and the country i'm in doesn't really permit me the luxuries of travelling to that far off place with the Strikers cab. So my practice with the stick is incredibly limited. Thanks for assuring my purchase of the 360. 'ppreciate it.
@@handlessuck589 This is why I bought a modded X360(and ps2).
Modded retro consoles are the way to go nowadays, I can really recommend it
Ha joke is on your big bro now X-D the 360 is a much better console than the one ha :-D Yeah that style of playing for score and gradually learning the stages that way is also a great approach. I actually will do that now with certain shmups as well. So I do take a mix and match approach these days, depending on the game and how I think I want to learn the game. Like I'm using the method you describe with ZeroRanger, but using survival first with SDOJ. I think both approaches are solid.
@@TheElectricUnderground How is SDOJ doing with the lower resolution?
thats why i play arcade games 😅
all sorts rhythm ,shmup, run&gun, puzzle, even highscore vr arcade titles! also its nice to pull of some tricks when someone is watching :) i build a little kinda arcade in my cellar
playing with people is why i love arcade games the most !!
I play a kind of hybrid.
My true objective is survival since I'm kind of a beginner, but I try to score, it not only trains my skills better, it also helps with extends and is fun by itself, I grab the bees in all the ddp games, I try to grab as many pickups as I can and I do the 8chain in br. It can put me in dangerous situations but people only learn when out of their comfort zone.
Yes, I definitely know what you mean, I do this for garegga as well, since knowing how the scoring works will actually help with survival in a big way :-)
Survival first but once you get better and have early levels mastered you can play those for score to keep them interesting....so you can be playing score/survival depending on the level in one game.
For me it's been a mix of both. I started "seriously" with Ikaruga. First I was basically trying not to die. Then getting better, more consistent, further in each chapter until all of them seemed manageable to go for 1CC. But while doing this some sections became easier and I started to chain enemies. First some low risk/reward chains, then higher and higher... It was harder than just going for survival but more fun. (Finally I got my 1cc with 15M points, so rewarding! all of this on EASY of course)
For a survival run you get a ton of bombs and lives to get you through the game. Score runs require you to use those resources wisely or perhaps not even use them at all. And you also have to contend with the riskier play that comes from optimising your route for score. Without getting familiar with the basic mechanics, it also becomes harder to understand the in-depth scoring mechanics in some shmups. Doing survival first before going for score is a natural process and makes more sense to me.
Thanks a lot for these videos! Looking extra swag today as well 👌
Thanks for watching! Yeah, I love bomber jackets man :-D
For me focusing on scoring only making me hates the genre/burn out, so I only play for survival
I'd like to get into serious shmup play and I feel like having a go at Truxton on a single credit. Man that game kicks my ass but I still have my original copy and my Megadrive so I have a soft spot for this game in particular. My reason for getting into it is entirely nostalgia.
I don’t want to sound like a broken record but if you are new or intermediate play novice modes for score. The games are so much more enjoyable when you are Aiming for a goal. Once you start scoring well the difficulty will increase in most games , for example Mushihimesama futari novice mode with over 50,000 hits on the counter is not a cake walk!.
So the important thing is what keeps me to pull back? So I guess I already have a game for that.
imo survival first then scoring. but if its scoring that help you to gain rescources. understand the scoring. use scoring as survival tools. and after you beat survival. try master the scoring.
because new people saw STG peak performance as survival than scoring. and then new people jump to survival without care about scoring. i was like that before when i was 12 years old. after saw 1CC/ no miss no bomb run in almost cave games. i was impressed how they can survive the brutal pattern. but after i found your channel my prespective was change. im understand how crucial scoring system in STG. how useful scoring for survival. because i think people nowadays really don't care about score in video game....
so in conclusion, in order to success survival. player need to understand scoring/system how to gain rescource. and then after finished survival. try for scoring like i said before. because i think without survival record run for scoring is not maximal. imagine you only beat 1CC until stage 3 that you cannot going through the rest of stages that have a potential to make score higher. Survival is actually the practice to maximize your scoring performance.
yeah it's really interesting how depending on the shmup knowing scoring either really helps for survival (like garegga) or doesn't really matter at all (like ddp)
@@TheElectricUnderground luckily Garegga score extend wasn't that brutal like Batrider/Bakraid. (Even tho stage 6 was my longest run so far)
Hey don't know if you'll see this since it's an old video, but what you said about how you got into shmups got me thinking... have you ever been into rhythm games? The more I play and learn about shmups the more I see parallels between the two genres.
I started recently playing this genre and
I really fell in love then with the strikers 1945 games, generally the psikyo games to be precise, but i find that at difficulty 1 i can complete the full route for example in strikers 1945-3 but when I start with dif.2 it's a miracle to reach level 4, the difficulty level just spikes up really too much! i can't even imagine playing at dif.3 or more 🤯 it's too common that even normal enemies just walls you of not dodgeable bullets in first levels :/ for the experts, is it just me or is it a known thing? are there games like the piskyo ones but with a more balanced difficulty spike? I play on switch every suggestion is well accepted even if you don't know if the game is on the console, I'll search it ^^ thanks everyone who will read and help me!
Ps. Loving the channel!
Psikyo is a beast! So one bit of advice I can give is use the dodging method that I outline in my raiden vid, as regular bullet hell style dodging doesn't seem to work as well ruclips.net/video/zVRaolZ6jD4/видео.html
Thank you very much ^^ i watched it. I kind of intuitively ended up doing the walls/ corners covering but I'll do it more consciously and with the suggested premptive bombing, sometimes i tend to get greedy with the bombs and i end up using them too late 👀 I'll improve.
(especially after all this time that these games have been taken out of the arcades to been put on consoles etc)
I have to say that is understandable for their coinsgrabbing purpose at the time, but at the meantime it's sad that such amazing games present such an unfair difficulty level scaling/bullet patterns/enemy waves where sometimes you can't do anything and just have to die or pray for the rng that the wave started with you on the right position for the oncoming bullet pattern :/ that's a thing that I've seen improved in more recent bullethell games, at least for the bit that i have experienced :/ maybe I'm wrong
Ya, play survival first. There shouldn't be such a stigma against playing for survival. For games that are truly good you will want to come back to score after your clear (though maybe not immediately.) Such was my experience after clearing Garegga and Dan3.
I wouldn't recomend Garegga for people coming into shmups though. If you're interested in Garegga's style, consider playing Battle Bakraid first. Bakraid is less popular and has its flaws, but it teaches much the same lessons that Garegga does: managing rank, score, medals. It's much less brutal for getting a clear, at least for normal mode. Unfortunately it will require emulation, as it never saw a home release.
Great insight my dude! Yeah I agree about Garegga, as much as I love the game. Also, now I want to check out some Bakraid!
I find sometimes I get a better score when I play for survival!
That's always a really cool feeling. Yeah in some cases where you have a max bonus or something, solid survival play can translate into a really spicy score! :-)
I bought Hellsinker and just can't put it down, I dread the day I start playing for score
That s great!
Is there like a hub similar to SRC where leaderboards are kept for shmups?
it sounds kinda silly but i enjoy Tentashooter of all my shmups the most the cancel system and stuff is just cool also got some hidden bees like ddp:) ( but i play only casual dont realy know how good it is for actual scoring)
Nothing wrong with that man! Yeah playing lesser-known or played shmups is really cool, like I want to start spending more time with Ring 27 in the future.
Que personaje. Aguante aerofighters 2 amigo
Snake says stonks are up.
MGS3 man ... I love that game so much. Definitely am going to do a video on it in the future.
The Electric Underground nice! looking forward to that. It’s is definitely on my list of favorite games of all time.
You wouldn't happen to be a fan of riding motorcycles on airplane runways would you?
Ha I would indeed! Jake I need you ... I can't fly the airplane by myself. (Props if you recognize that reference). X-D
I think first and addict the games need to survive with complete about setups.
Hi G3!! Really happy you checked out the video! I don't know if you remember (it's been a long time), but I used to tune in and watch your Gradius runs on and off a year and a half ago. Killer stuff my dude!!
@@TheElectricUndergroundThanks and I am fine.
Wait a next medicine and buy a new pc.
Retry of Gradius III is maybe may 3rd week or June 1st.