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My contrarian opinion on Genesis is that the self-titled one is probably my favorite of theirs for everything past Trick of the Tail. The reason is every single song on the record does something quite different than the others, making all the songs that much more important. You have the brooding Mama, the catchy lovers' angst of That's All, a dynamic prog tale in Home By the Sea/Second Home By the Sea (almost a post-modern Supper's Ready), the satire of Illegal Alien, the sympathetic and calming Taking it All Too Hard, Just a Job to Do which is a hard-driving ode to a hitman, the proggy stomp of Silver Rainbow with lots of metaphor and innuendo, the ethereal philosophy of It's Gonna Get Better. It's like a box of crayons every song bringing in something different.
Duke is my favourite Genesis album. I think has JUST the right blend of progressive and more 'immediate' music. The music is very good and the whole album ties together well conceptually and musically.
Abacab is a great album and, by early 80's standards, of course it is prog. I never do understand those folks that just want re-treads of 1972-1974 albums. Musicians are not likely to want to stay in a time capsule and not change.
I've always listened to Duke and abacab together and they were my intro to Genesis. I've always loved the two and never understood why abacab got a bad wrap its one of there best, in my opinion. Phil's drumming was just stunning. Keep it Dark is one of my favourite Genesis tracks.
May I use this platform to point out how gorgeous the intro of Another Record is? Totally different from the rest of the song in tone, but so ominous and foreboding sounding. And it never repeats
As one of those rare people who loves the entire Genesis discography (yes, even their first and last albums), I have nothing whatsoever against their commercial 80's years. I think both Duke and their self-titled albums are vastly superior to Abacab, but Abacab is still one of their bravest collections of songs. The EWF strings. The short songs mixed with the remnants of their prog days. The strong influence of Phil Collins' newfound fame as a solo artist. I love it all. The second half is definitely weaker than the first, but there's not a bad song on here. Even "Whodunnit" is hilarious. Annoying live, but great here. Just good fun.
I am in Martin's corner. Abacab is my favourite Genesis album, and "Me and Sara Jane" and "Keep It Dark" have always been my favourite songs on the album. They are proggy without being too proggy, and poppy without too poppy. Perfect balance.
I'm with Martin here. What a brave move this was -the cover though for me relates to the modern abstract music within. The title track, Dodo-Lurker, Who Dunnit, and even Keep It Dark are all flipped out songs (in a good way). Genesis took a nod from Rush and scaled it way back and streamlined their sound - but this is a powerful, all caution to the wind album. It almost stands outside Genesis itself as a stand alone album where they never sounded like this again (a shame). Think about the cacophonous off the wall sound of Who Dunnit chugging down to the moody spacious and simple/quiet opening of Man On The Corner - the juxtaposition is brilliance! Along with Duke, this was Genesis entering the modern age- in their maturity, musicality and again, bravery. It's hard to rank one of your fav bands albums but this is where I fully came to Genesis, so there's SOME sentimentality but Abacab is a strong musical statement and it's my number one, too (Duke No.2).
Martin's favourite Rush album is "Signals", so he'll always have my respect. My favourite Genesis album is "The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway", but I love Abacab. The sound is fantastic, Phil's drumming is awesome. "Invisible Touch" was my favourite for a long time. Now that's a contrarian choice.
I collected the studio albums in order of release so heard From Genesis To Revelation as though it was a new band as it was my introduction to a Genesis album. As I progressed through the albums I could hear what the band was trying to achieve. Trespass was in ways their New Testament and Nursery Cryme moving the story forward through Greek mythology and into morality plays on Foxtrot. Selling England was a Revenger's Tragedy and The Lamb pure Shakespeare. Trick and Wuthering was a return to the storybook pages of Trespass and Nursery Cryme. With ATTWT and Duke echoing Selling England and The Lamb. Abacab for me is a fresh start. A new Book Of Genesis. Gone are the Los Endos and Duke's Travels. Instead the Prog entrapment has been replaced by a freed up energy. I found it to be an exciting album and as has been said more Prog than previous albums. The band always sounded trapped on the early Collins albums.
very cool, good points and thank you for comments. I think Martin agrees with you on the progression of the band and Abacab. I didnt hate Abacab, but i thought that general consensus is probably right on the top albums being England and Lamb and even Foxtrot.
Excellent album and this tour was the peak of this lineup. Phil's vocals are amazing. Especially on that breakdown on No reply at all. I often agree with your picks. I cant say this is my fave Genesis album but it sure is great. Keep it dark and me and Sarah jane are highlights.
Thanks for this episode as it helped reveal some things to me. I am a long time old Genesis prog fan and once I realized that the songs from 3 sides live, "Evidence of Autumn", "You might recall" and "Me and Virgil" were originally meant for Abacab, I can see Martin's view...I don't like some of the noisier, punk tracks on Ababac but with Sarah Jane and these 3 live sides B side songs added, that's an album of great prog pop song writing.... By the way if I might offer advice for Martin trying to really get hooked on the older Genesis prog, the song writing and gorgeous melodies and arrangements are all there in the albums "Nursery Cryme", "Foxtrot", "Selling England by the pound", "Trick of the Tail", "Wind and Wuthering" and even "And the there were three" but they each take up to 50 listens for each album to fully reveal all of the beauty so don't give up on them.
@@thecontrarians2438 Thanks to you for all of your great work....Please give some of the Yes "Relayer" parts a chance as well as there are gorgeous melodies in the middle of this album.
@@thecontrarians2438 By the way, I love your work on "Sea of Tranquility" with Pete and watch every episode as that's Pete's best show with you...I'm in Regina, Saskatchewan so another Canadian.
This has long been one of my favorite Genesis albums since hearing it as a kid. I'd argue that it has certainly aged well cementing it's status as progressive music.
While I typically don't agree with Martin's choices, I applaud them. The Contrarians angle, that you like what you like, and that music often hits us the hardest during a particular window in our lives when we feel it the most, very much appeals to me.
Err...what other angle is there? You listen to what you like or you don't listen at all, right? The only other angles I can think of are when people are such hopeless sheep that they listen to whatever's trending at the moment to fit in, or if someone is being forced to listen to something (i.e. torture).
ABACAB was the first Genesis album I heard, as an 11-year old kid. I bought the Paperlate 45 and You Might Recall became my all-time favorite Genesis song, as well. Love to hear you talk about this!
Hey guys, couple of things. First off, funny that Martin picks Abacab, Duke and Lamb as his 3 favs. I listed those 3 on a FB thread 3 days ago as my 3 favs too so we agree! But my main point is that the counter argument seemed to center around if Abacab was “proggy” enough, whatever that really even means. Who cares? The focus on judging any record should be on the quality of the material, the production and whether the artist accomplished what they tired to accomplish. Not whether or not they are fitting into some sort of genre or pleasing their fan base. I agree with all that was said, this is best sounding Genesis record by far, amazing production and engineering. They set out to not make a typical Genesis record and I believe they accomplished this while still sounding like Genesis. I think it would’ve been stronger had Man on the corner and who dunnit been replaced by paperlate and you might recall or submarine but it’s still great and luckily we have iTunes playlists where we can add the extra tunes.
Wow great points! Ya the counter point was brought on by a lot of the slag Martin got for picking Abacab on another program, and most of that was because it wasnt proggy enough, but i agree, i didnt think the record was super offensive so i didnt put Martin's feet to the fire to hard!
not sure if anyone mentioned this but the photo you put up for Genesis's first record was incorrect. Their first record was "From Genesis to Revelation" The one your showing was their 12th Studio album from 1983, it contained "Mama", Home By The Sea, Illegal Alien, That's All, Second Home By The Seas (great instrumental song), Taking it all to Hard and Silver Rainbow. That was a mostly prog record I'd say. "From Genesis to Revelation" had ' Where the Sour Turns to Sweet, Am I very Wrong, etc. That was just an FYI and I enjoyed the discussion as a lifelong Genesis fan. And being a lifelong Genesis fan I've just come to accept that a band with this much talent was going to evolve and spin-off branches, like a family tree and we needed to embrace it all. We can still have favorite eras but it all stems from the love of the band. A while back I read an interview with Phil who was asked about the fan backlash from the direction they were heading after surprisingly Steve had left and the thing he said never left me. He said he never understood what the backlash about the music they were currently making was all about. He continued to say as people grow and as we mature as humans the musical influences and what we listen to hopefully matures as well. He then asked the interviewer if they listen to the same music they listened to 15 years or so ago, she said no and Phil followed by saying "If we as individuals in a band are listening to different music as well, then all of that music we consumed on our own will inevitably show up somehow in the music we collaborate on and eventually create, and because of that it's not going to sound the same as what we did with Steve or Peter, we're human just like you.
.... and great points! Interesting to read Phil's comments! they would have added nicely into the episode to help martin's points. Thank you for the comments!
Great review from both of you guys. I like all the eras of the band but I would have prefer to have Hackett for a longer period. You have to appreciate the band at those particular time frames but they never forgot their prog roots. It's what keep their music always different and on many occasions, refreshing.
I have officially realized that I am truly a contrarian. I often agree with Martin's choices on these but, this one has been my favorite Genesis album since it came out. I honestly didn't listen to the Peter Gabriel era until decades later. I do quite enjoy them but, I'm partial to the Phil Collins era by a lot.
@Martin Popoff /. No way, many many times, when you pick an album, that I always stressed, and others say over the years”. Gary , your crazy “! I say to myself. Yes. Martin is with me. Lol. 👀 Look , the COMBO of you and Mike PORTNOY “ double teaming” PETE , made him come on yesterday showing his CD LONDON CALLING( just purchased). Good stuff 👍💯
Has a 80's kid growing up didn't hear a lot of Peter Gabriel's era on the radio but did hear alot of Phil's era and fell in love with those albums. I didn't hear the Peter Gabriel era for very long time before I got into them
A great dark horse pick I agree with Martin. The members in interviews state it's their most deliberate break from their past, but i still think this was the last truly excellent album as a whole, where as the following albums all had some patchiness/lesser songs. They now had their own studio and more time to explore and experiment than previous albums (like Martin said, there was a double albums worth of a wide variety of songs. If you look at their prog peers like ELP, Jethro Tull, King Crimson, and Yes... all of them streamlined/went more pop with their songs in the 80s for the "MTV" era ...but I think Genesis songwriting strength is what lead them to all of those hit singles, and superstardom... with only YES being somewhat comparable with the success of 90215.
Love these shows as they highlight how subjective art is. Just like if you goto a big art gallery with some friends you will encounter paintings some in your group really like and some do not like much or at all. The same way with pottery, literature, sculpture, etc...the art we are drawn to depends on who we are as people and where we came from.
interesting point Steve, yes sometimes we put up videos and read the range of comments from people either agreeing or disagreeing or in the middle, nothing is ever 100% agreed upon, and thus is the basis of our show!
I have chosen my favourite songs from Duke and Abacab and combined them together to make a best of from the two albums (12 songs in total): 1. Behind the Lines (Duke) 2. Man Of Our Times (Duke) 3. Misunderstanding (Duke) 4. Turn It On Again (Duke) 5. Abacab (Abacab) 6. No Reply At All (Abacab) 7. Me And Sarah Jane (Abacab) 8. Keep It Dark (Abacab) 9. Dodo, Lurker (Abacab) 10. Paperlate (Abacab Sessions) 11. You Might Recall (Abacab Sessions) 12. Me And Virgil (Abacab Sessions)
I recently did a Genesis ranking video on my channel and put Abacab quite high up and got loads of people saying I knew nothing about music! I love all their albums but for me this is a great prog pop record. Keep it dark and man on the corner are my favourites
What a great album! It’s my drum record as well - fantastic sound, Phil plays perfectly just what it needs, no overplaying, great groove. The songs are awesome, the reduced sound is stunning. I‘m completely with Martin.
Always loved this album. Released my senior year in High School. My first Genesis album was Duke, which is my personal favorite. I played that thing to death and consider it one of my favorite “headphones” albums. ABACAB always sounded good to me also. Agree with both of you that Keep It Dark is the best song. Was mystified when I’m seeing people trash this album. Hearing Martin describe his relationship with Kansas music is exactly how I feel about early Genesis - never really got into them and anytime I listen to them it’s like brand new material.
Genesis is one of my favorite bands - ever! I started to listen to them around 1980 and I immediately fell in love with albums like "A Trick of the Tail", "Selling England by the Pound", and even "Duke". And then abacab came out. And I am still angry with them for going in that direction. I get it. They lost their lead guitarist when Steve Hackett left in 1977. They wanted to make some money. But why, oh why, could they just not continue with the direction they were going in with "Duke". I never minded some Pop on a Genesis album - the Pop songs "sell" the album. But abacab onward was a "sell out", pure and simple. (But, kudos to you, because your opinion is certainly "Contrarian". :) )
Do you like Phil Collins? I've been a big Genesis fan ever since the release of their 1980 album, Duke. Before that, I really didn't understand any of their work. Too artsy, too intellectual. It was on Duke where Phil Collins' presence became more apparent. I think Invisible Touch was the group's undisputed masterpiece. It's an epic meditation on intangibility. At the same time, it deepens and enriches the meaning of the preceding three albums. Listen to the brilliant ensemble playing of Banks, Collins and Rutherford. You can practically hear every nuance of every instrument. In terms of lyrical craftsmanship, the sheer songwriting, this album hits a new peak of professionalism. Take the lyrics to Land of Confusion. In this song, Phil Collins addresses the problems of abusive political authority. In Too Deep is the most moving pop song of the 1980s, about monogamy and commitment. The song is extremely uplifting. Their lyrics are as positive and affirmative as anything I've heard in rock. Phil Collins' solo career seems to be more commercial and therefore more satisfying, in a narrower way. Especially songs like In the Air Tonight and Against All Odds. But I also think Phil Collins works best within the confines of the group, than as a solo artist, and I stress the word artist. This is Sussudio, a great, great song, a personal favorite.
wow ya great comment! I dont mind Phil Collins at all, but its pretty clear most genesis fans prefer the era was Gabriel was the front man, I think Martin is in the same kind of boat where the earlier records just really didn't stick with him.
@@thecontrarians2438 haha man, I was joking around. This actually was a quote from Patrick Bateman in the movie american psycho, I found it really appropriate for the occasion... Serious comment now (real opinion): I actually don't like to think of "80s genesis" and "70s genesis" as the same band. I think they both have their own merits, but all in all they are too hard to compare because the styles are totally different. Of course you could kind of say the same about the King Crimson 80s albums for example, but I think it's very different. For one, I'd say pretty much all KC albums are different from the one before, or at least their style is very very varied overall, so the 80s albums having a different style isn't all that strange. Also, KC always tried to "stay" progressive, whereas genesis with ABACAB was actually trying to dissasociate itself from its former prog era, at least that's how I feel about it. Of course I'm not saying ABACAB is devoid of proggy elements... But then again, The police, for example, which isn't prog at all, showcases many proggy elements nonetheless. Overall I like the 70s era better, I just find the songs much more memorable, though I'm not saying 80s era is bad - I love songs like Abacab, Jesus he knows me, etc. If I had to rank the albums it'd be: 1. Selling England by the pound 2. Foxtrot 3. A trick of the tail 4. Nursery cryme 5. Duke (I actually think Duke is very progressive and cool, while adding new poppy elements - still consider it to be 70s style genesis) 6. Tresspass 7. And then there were three Two albums I don't like that much, funnily enough, are Lamb Lies Down and Wind and wuthering (the first one is probably the most polemic opinion). I just don't find them memorable. Quoting Martin, "every time I listen to them it's like something new". In contrast, I know all Selling England songs pretty much by heart. The songwriting on the first few albums on my list is superb, I specially love how they can make a song catchy without adhering to straightforward song structures - The cinema show, for example, is basically two parts that don't really have that much to do with each other, first the actual song part and then the keyboard solo/instrumental. It's a totally asymetrical song, yet it feels really natural and compact, like nothing is missing, nor is there filler. That's just one example - others would be the great Supper's ready or Firth of fifth, just to name a few
@@anti-hermes2541 lol never seen the movie! Patrick Bateman sounds like a nice guy. Sorry that went right over my head, maybe i should be a little more concerned with Martin....
I remember an interview where Phil said (I'm paraphrasing) 'where were all the fans of those records (meaning Nursery.. to Lamb) when we were trying to sell those albums?' and also even Steve Hacket said 'only in Italy did those old record sell at that time, and only in retrospect did they become sellers'. I tend to agree with Tony Banks when talking about 'the lamb..' album describing the music as great, but the story/lyrics as not very strong. I also feel the story of 'the lamb..' is kind of all over the place and people really want to find more meaning in it than there actually is. My favorite is 'A trick of the tail'. As for 'Abacab' I feel it's good but not very consistent, when I think of 'no reply..' I get more of the crazy keyboard riff than the actual horns on it, it is a contrarian pick, but again I love all eras of this band.
Gabriel era Genesis snobs tend to dismiss this album. Yes, this is more poppy, but it is excellent pop/rock music. It has proggy elements but lacks the complex time signatures of early Genesis. This is one of my faves, but I believe that Trick of the Tail is probably my favorite. I love the Gabriel era Genesis music but the audio is subpar on the early records.
Great episode. First album I heard was the self-titled, which is my favourite of the post--Gabriel era but I still like Abacab. Selling England is my all time favorite. Don't know if you realised that the cover of genesis '83 was shown as being of their debut "From Genesis to Relevation".
I have seen a fair amount of times people dismiss Abacab but then praise Genesis '83. I like Abacab far more than Genesis '83. On Abacab for the most part I hear some good pop songs, a few really great prog tracks and tracks that find a sweet spot between the two styles. The only issue I have with Abacab is that I think Who Dunnit should have been a b-side and I would have preferred Submarine to be on Abacab. On Genesis '83 I think there's a few good tracks but I can't get into Home By The Sea which I guess would be the proggy track on that album and I think the straight up pop songs are pretty awful.
Abacab was the band's bravest album since The Lamb. It was a conscious effort to take a new approach and also to experiment. That inevitably led to some inconsistency. I think if they had included the five tracks left off and made it a double album it would have been better as the full variety of their music would have been displayed.
"Abacab" is a great album. It's starker than their earlier stuff, but it's very well produced. I agree, Phil's drum sound is the best of any Genesis studio album. It's was a necessary album for them to flourish on FM and touring during the 80s. I wish they had made "Abacab" it a double album including the more prog stuff to balance it out the pop stuff.
I think Pardo's audience and Pardo himself have this anachronic, no synths just guitars, early Queen manifesto way of thinking about, not just prog but rock in general. Also Pardo doesn't like punk so he never talks about post-punk, new wave, hardcore, goth, synth pop, industrial, ska, I mean a lot of genres which defined the 80's and influenced much of the the 90's and part of the 2000's alternative rock music. So of course no fans of that channel would consider Abacab part of the prog rock cannon. Growing up in the 80's I love Abacab and it was the first Genesis album I listened to, that was my music while Gabriel's Genesis was like "my uncle's music" literally, cause my uncle loved early Genesis, was a Lamb guy. So there is two ways of thinking about prog, Pardo's way "Prog is about recreating the 70's prog band's sound and about virtuosity", and then what Popoff said here "Prog is about moving forward and trying something new". So for me the post punk krautonian bands were like the second wave of prog, and the post-rock (Mogwai, Sigur Ros), post metal (Isis, Russian Circles) and prog metal (Tool and Meshuggah) from the 90's and 00's were then the third wave of prog more than Dream Theatre in the 90's or Marillion in the so called "second wave", bands which were just "trying to be prog".
Pete Pardo likes a lot of bands with keyboards/synths. He likes artists like Bowie and XTC. He's also really into jazz/fusion. I would suggest you have a narrow view of what you think he's into. I can't agree with you at all that Marillion or Dream Theater are just 'trying to be prog'. They're great bands. Marillion merged prog with commercial soft rock and pop sensibilities more successfully in the 1980s than Genesis did, in my opinion. Dream Theater are prog metal just like Tool and Meshuggah, but with more melodic elements.
@@jimmycampbell78 I talked to Pete about XTC and the Police. I joked with him and told him he should cut his hair, dye it green and began an "alternative Pete" channel after the XTC episode, so he told me those two bands were the exception. In another video he admits he only likes the hits from the Police. I listed to him a bunch of classic, even Rock hall of famers New Wave and Post Punk bands and he despies them. So liking just XTC doesn't count. I know prog and jazz fusion bands used keyboards to include long solos like Keith Emerson but that is still the old way for using the keyboard. That "look at me, Im a virtuoso" kind of way, like using guitar for long solos. That is what punk took care off basically. I suggest you watch the BBC documentary "Synth Britannia", it's about those things Im talking about. I like Dream Theatre but you can't compare them to the later prog metal bands. There this book called "Mean Deviation" about prog metal, Great book about the subject. I never got into Marillion but I don't know if merging soft rock with prog looks appealing to me. Outside Steely Dan soft rock is the thing I try to stay away, (not the same as synth pop or power pop). You could argue Rush, Genesis and Yes were trying to be synth pop and New Wave in the 80's, or King Crimson post-punk). So not liking soft rock is my narrow view about music there lol cause I like every other genre from what's consider rock music by say the All Music rock guide which includes all the alternative and black music genres as rock, not a narrow view at all.
@@MsKalachakra Yes, I know the bands you mean. I like a lot of punk/New Wave bands - Television, The Clash, Joy Division, Talking Heads. I like Peter Gabriel, Kate Bush and some Bryan Ferry from the 80s. But I still prefer 1970s Genesis and particularly Gabriel-era to 1980s Genesis. Marillion with Fish were making the type of albums in the 1980s that I would have liked the Gabriel-era Genesis to make in the 1980s, if they had stayed together. I think for Pete Pardo, during the 1980s in particular he was really into NWOBHM bands, classic metal and thrash so he probably didn't ever really get into that side of music. He went from heavier music and being a metal guy, back to prog.
I've become really immersed in these music discussion RUclips channels over the past few months and I really appreciate the content that Pete Pardo puts out, the regularity, the guests (Martin is always good value, no matter how much I'm agreeing or disagreeing) and interviews. I generally prefer to concentrate on things I have in common with people when it comes to music tastes as well. And I do have a lot of classic rock and metal in common with Pete and presumably the majority of his audience. What I don't really understand is when anyone more or less dismisses a whole genre of music, when the term itself (be it 'punk', 'grunge' 'blackgaze' or whatever) is usually music-media created and quite often meaningless. The lines are much more fluid and hazy than that and quite often even the biggest bands in each genre don't sound that much alike, or have a large range of different influences and just happen to have ended up doing a vaguely similar thing at about the same time (or location). Maybe it's just my bad-natured bemusement at the idea that Kansas, Styx, ELP, IQ, Dream Theater or whoever somehow 'kick more ass' than Bad Brains, Husker Du, Minutemen and Fugazi and so on. Tastes though - strange things! And I have actually learned to appreciate a fair bit of progressive rock over the years, for which I should be congratulated because it wasn't easy. If you're coming from the opposite direction (a progger attempting punk shall we say) all I can say is that..well, the songs are a lot shorter so it should..be...easier?? I totally agree that 'prog' should be as much about the actual progressive intent of the artists as much as describing something pristinely produced with tricky time signatures.
@@paulh6673 I think music in general comes in cycles. So prog, punk, post-punk, metal genres, hip hop, soul, krautrock, mod, all had their birth, life and death as "the shit". of course there always will be second or third waves and imitators, or bands that are trying to recreate a sound, a movement or a point in time. I personally like almost all genres and subgenres with very few exceptions. I know there are people that like "just one or two things", they live in tribes and that's ok too. In the case of punk it came with a mission and it was to erase corporate and prog rock from the face of the earth lol. like Nirvana did again in the 90''s, of course that's kind of silly but it's funny at the same time. With punk, it was the first time a youth movement were going against another youth movement, the hippies for example. The idea was to recover rock and make it exiting again and not about what is "easier" to play. Remember this? "there's 3 chords" now let's have a band thing? Ok so the idea is the rock music in not about vrtuosity or skills but more about the feeling, originality and just being alive. So what Pete does and I don't agree is saying "rock is the things I like" (metal, classic rock and prog) and all the rest I don't like is not rock. Of course I can appreciate the time and effort he puts into his channel, he is a very passionate guy but I always like to make fun of his way of thinking.
ABACAB (Verse) A (Chorus) B (Verse) A (Bridge) C (Verse) A (Chorus) B but as pointed out..that isn't how the song ended up. How's this for Contrarian? I love the Peter Gabriel era material, but prefer it sung by Phil Collins. Comparing any songs that were sung by each singer, I have always preferred how Phil delivered them over Peter. The music speaks for itself. "Seconds Out' (1977) is by far my favorite Genesis album followed by "A Trick of the Tail" from 1976. Which brings us to Abacab. I have always preferred the more progressive side of the band and the more commercial they got, the more difficult it was for me to enjoy them. For me Abacab sits very nicely between "Duke" (1980) and "Genesis" (1983). "Duke" has a familiar connection to albums like ""And Then There Were Three" (1978). It has that older style Genesis vibe going on with it while clearly not as progressive as "A Trick of the Tail" was. "Duke" has the signs of where they would be heading in the future. Songs like "Misunderstanding" and "Turn It On Again" could very easily have been on "Abacab" and fit in nicely. But songs like "Man of Our Times", "Behind the Lines", "Heathaze" have a closer connection to their previous releases. "Abacab" takes the direction of "Turn It On Again" and "Misunderstanding" with the songs, "Abacab", "No Reply At All", ""Like It or Not", Me and Sarah Jane", and "Dodo/Lurker" while songs like "Keep It Dark", "Who Dunnit?", and "Man on the Corner" were even more popish and would have fit nicely on the "Genesis" album in 1983. The "Genesis" album released in 1983 carry over from "Abacab" songs like "Home By the Sea", "Second Home By the Sea" and "Mama" but they really go commercial with "That's All", "Illegal Alien", "Taking It All Too Hard". It would really become extreme on 1986's "Invisible Touch". By then, they are full on pop. So while I love half of "Abacab", I prefer all of "Duke" in comparison. But...again my favorite studio album was "A Trick of the Tail".
I like Abacab, but my opinions on the band are a bit weird since i got into Genesis starting with the Collins fronted stuff (Invisible Touch to be exact).
If you are a progressive rock band and never change up your sound,are you truly progressive! I was not too thrilled with the Collins era of the band,but realized these guys are smart and will eventually change it up! Abacab is the best I believe from that time with this band. Great arguments!
Martin , I always enjoy your contrarian opinions , as it pushes me to re-evaluate my opinions on some music . I prefer the Gabriel era of Genesis , but I also like a lot of the post Gabriel albums . However , leaving a song like You Might Recall off of Abacab , and including a song like Whodunnit instead , is about as mystifying as it gets . I also would have included Me & Virgil instead of Dodo / Lurker , and added Paperlate . In my view , the inclusion of these songs would have made it a much stronger album . Anyway , I always enjoy your views.
Abacab is my second-favorite Genesis album - the first is Trespass. A different view, I know. I can relate to Martin saying that the earlier Genesis albums never sink in for him - I’ve had sort of the same experience with everything from Nursery Cryme to And Then There Were Three. And I’m a big prog fan - though to be fair, Genesis was the last of the Big Six that I started delving into. I can also relate somewhat to his statement about liking the stripped-down, poppier later stuff by classic prog acts. I did go to high school in the early ‘80s, so I do have that connection to that sort of thing, though.
Abacab is one of the best produced albums of all time. Lots of Prog albums can get convoluted with so much going on at once, with every instrument almost fighting for your attention. This is a taut and focused record. Everything is laid out in front of the listener without clutter. For example, listen to the percussion accents in Lurker during Banks' lead synth line. Listen to Duke and Abacab back to back to hear the differences. I only wish the "Mama" album sonically sounded as good.
I think the title track is prog as fuck. Insane chord inversions, modulations, a sick extended improv jam in the outro...it's by far my fave Genesis track.
I love it when Martin picks a “way out there” contrarian album. Prog purists may be more vocal in their disdain of Abacab but I bet a huge number of fans would pick Duke as the favorite.
This album is in my top 5 Genesis albums, would probably be top 3 if Who Dunnit wasn't on it and instead Paperlate and You Might Recall were present. Favorite songs include Abacab, Like It Or Not and Keep It Dark. Man On The Corner I really like too, sure it's a ballad but also a very thought provoking one especially in the lyrics. Great episode!
I have only just got round to listening to this episode and I was amused by some of Marco's comments particularly his claim that people think this album is too much like pop and not progressive enough. Generally when people say that what they really mean is that it doesn't sound like Genesis did in 1972! Well of course it doesn't! Why would it? Just because an album doesn't sound like the band did 10 years earlier it doesn't mean it is less progressive. Musically and lyrically ABACAB is just as progressive as the earlier Genesis albums but time, technology and band members had moved on! How can you properly appreciate a band when you want them to remain stuck in time, never changing their sound or experimenting with anything new. That is not being progressive!
yep you are right! I amuse myself sometimes too lol, no but i agree and disagree with some of the comments i do think there are elements of prog rock in abacab but i also would say some of the earlier stuff fits more neatly into the progressive genre better. Its all good though, i didn't mind Abacab!
I love the channel and the concept of not agreeing with the majority, but here it went a little too much against the grain. Genesis is one of my favourite acts in music ( I'm from Brazil and I was at the now historical 1977 tour down here, the first shows without Gabriel, and the first time that lasers were used in a concert in South America). They have three albums that I think are masterpieces of Progressive Rock and will always be at the top of my list and are untouchables: Foxtrot, Nursery Crime and Selling England. The sacred triad of Genesis in my modest opinion. Great, great show as always!
@Martin Popoff very kind of you to reply to my comment! Keep contrarian Martin! Your genuine and passionate antagonism is the rich fuel for endless new and healthy discussions and analysis. For me the most important and necessary quality in being a contrarian is that sheds unprecedented light to rediscover, with your incomparable ( and heartfull) knowledge, semi forgotten or depreciated albums, even despised ones, in most of the times an unfair tag stick upon them, implemented only by the opinion of the majority.
I love Peter Gabriel era Genesis. The Lamb Lies Down On Broadway is one of my favorite prog albums of all time. Love Selling England By The Pound and the albums that came before that as well. When it comes to the Phil Collins era I'm not a big fan. The only album I really like from that era is Duke.
Don't know Genesis well enough to rank albums, and get where fans of earlier stuff would dismiss Abacab. It being first Genesis album I heard means I'm biased- but really dig Abacab. Agree with Martin's sound of drums take. And damn the title track and Keep it Dark are superb!
Again, in 1981 being 18-19 yrs old , i was into “ heavier” stuff. So didn’t purchase this on cassette then. Maybe in 96?/ 97? I bought it on CD because I knew the big hits from radio. I got it cause one day I heard Keep it dark. ( underrated song IMO. So, as years go by, I liked this more. Appreciate it more. 6.5-7.0 on scale 1-10. Great show guys. !!👍💯
I think this view is only contrarian to, as Martin called them "the old prog heads". For many other fans, this was the album that put Genesis on the map in a much larger sense. Great discussion!
Thanks for the comment! I wasnt super offended by Martin's choice so i didnt hold his feet to the fire too much, but im sure quite a few others would have.
Genesis fans often fall into two different camps, 70s Prog era, and latter-day pop era, so it really depends on who you ask. There are probably lots of people who'd tell you Invisible Touch is their best album.
@@thecontrarians2438 Well, lets put it this way. Genesis is supposed to tour later this year. I'm willing to bet those stadiums full of people are not going to be there to hear Supper's Ready, but as soon as the intro to Invisible Touch hits they'll go bonkers. You can't argue that 80s genesis is far more popular than the 70s Prog era. Perhaps those fans are just not as vocal in their views. It may be a more casual fandom whereas old school prog fans are more dedicated.
@@keviniles8748 you might absolutely be right about that! We kind of had a discussion about this with Def Leppard, where their 80's records Pyromania and Hysteria are unbelievably popular records, but hardcore Def Leppard fans will probably go with the early records as their fave like high n dry and on through the night, but go to a live gig and i bet the opening to "pour some sugar" gets the best reaction!
I prefer Gabriel era Genesis, with The Lamb Lies Down On Broadway being my favourite album of all time. But I agree that Abacab is underrated. Especially side A is really good
I think Abacab is proggy enough to be considered for a "favorite prog album list." Some people hear too many hooks and not enough guitar in an album and instantly consider it pop. But that's not always true. That being said, Abacab would come in at #9 on my list of favorite Genesis albums. My most contrarian opinion would be putting the 1983 self-titled album in my top three.
Great point, well said, and ya you probably would be considered Contrarian! I didn't have a huge issue with Abacab that's why i didn't go after Martin as hard as some of the commentators have when he's talked about it in the past.
This late era of Genesis is prog because they progressed to something that isn't prog? Is prog simply progressing to different musical styles? If so, I guess the Bee Gees and Fleetwood Mac might be the greatest prog bands of all time. I do like the Abacab album though. But, they sound more like the Police than anything else at this point. Good video!
Just had another listen to `Abacab` and enjoyed it more than I was expecting to! I can`t stand `No Reply At All` and could live without `Who dunnit` but if you were to take those two off and add `Paperlate`, plus the superb `You Might Recall`and `Me and Virgil` then I`d count it as a pretty decent Genesis album
@@thecontrarians2438 Pleasure. Thank you for doing this one I`m really glad you did. Haven`t played it for years and now have a new found respect for the album!
Abacab is great! It's great proggy fun! Take out Whodunit though, not a fan, but wake up sheeple! Love this choice, even though I would rank other Genesis albums higher.
I am always intrigued by others with different opinions than mine. I would tend to agree with the popular consensus the Selling England... is the best and ABACAB is actually one of my least favorites, so it's very interesting to see someone who loves it. It does make we want to give it another listen though. Perhaps I will hear it with a different perspective. Also, I wanna say that I also very much enjoy Drama by Yes. It's not my favorite, but I do quite enjoy it.
Ya absolutely, i wasnt super offended by abacab so i didn't hold martins feet to the fire too much but i know there is a lot of disdain for the record. England is classic Genesis all the way. When it comes to YES, i say Close to the Edge. We actually did a YES episode if you haven't seen it.
@@thecontrarians2438 Figured as much. Genesis to Revelation was a waste of vinyl and Genesis gave us Mama and a few other gems. (not to mention wood pulp, but this isn't a comment on religion, is it?)
Abacab is genesis's most varied album from the soul of no reply at all to the strange and beatlesque me and Sarah Jane to me 80s Genesis is just excellent
I’m a big fan of this record. Is it prog? I always kinda hate that question. I love prog but I love a lot of not-prog too. Good music is good music, forget the categories. I wouldn’t personally pick this as my favourite Genesis album (that’s probably Selling England), but it’s an excellent album.
Good on you Martin, no it’s not one of the so called classic albums by the band but ABACAB holds up really well. It’s a strong album but for different reasons than the earlier releases and yes, I think it’s still just in the prog camp.
Wow, that's a very contrarian choice. Abacab is a great album. I like it a lot, but it is far from my favorite. As my favorite my brain wants to pick "The Lamb", but "A Trick of the Tail" and "Wind and Wuthering" are the ones I find myself listening to the most.
I could never get into the Peter Gabriel era of Genesis, (I've tried)so I prefer from Trick Of The Tail through Invisible Touch. But I get where early era fans of Genesis are coming from. For me it would be like how I feel towards the 80's Chicago albums, where it is nothing like the horn/guitar driven music of their early albums.
I also prefer the Phil Collins era of Genesis, but try re-listing to the songs "In The Cage", "The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway" and "Anyway." All off of The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway album.
I'll be contrarian by saying that I really don't like or can't get into "Selling England by the Pound", even though I adore Nursery, Foxtrot and Lamb. To me "Selling" has a BIG "POP" feel to it, especially for a "real" prog album. Abacab is fine album imho.
Wind and Wuthering is their best and most creative album. Eleventh Earl of Mar, One for the Vine, Blood on the Rooftops and Your Own special way on the Album are outstanding tracks.
Can I point out that when you were referring to the debut album you were actually showing the cover to the self titled album which was released in 1983. The debut is From Genesis To Revelation which sounds nothing like future Genesis albums, it’s more bee gees type psych pop.
I think Abacab is a good album not my fav but a decent record. My choice is maybe more contrarian, I love the self-titled album from 83 and always have and always will. I actually prefer Peter Gabriel's solo albums more than his Genesis records especially the first 4 albums, genius stuff.
I'm guilty as charged. I am one of those people that said Abacab was not prog on that coment section referred to. I feel that they stopped being prog when And Then They Were Three came out. However, Abacab was the first Genesis album that I listened to. Therefore, I don't have the bias of being attached to the prog era when first hearing it. I don't think I knew what prog was when Abacab came out. I am fond of Abacab. I think it is their best album after Steve Hackett left. I consider it to be a perfect album. I like all the songs. However, once I started listening to the prog material, I found that stuff to be more interesting and creative. By the way, since I never heard the last album, I would put And Then They Were Three as my least favorite with the debut being slightly above it. I have Lamb as #1.
I think Abacab is a great record. Not a bad song on the record - I used to hate Whodunnit, but over the years I finally got what they were trying to do. Kinda like McCartney II from around the same time. My 3 favorite songs on here are Me and Sarah Jane, No Reply at All, and Man on the Corner. Man on the Corner is notable for covering the same ground as Another Day in Paradise, without being preachy. It is also musically superior.
I'm glad Genesis made a ton of money, but I didn't buy any of this stuff from Duke on. Turn It On Again was a nice pop song. Some of the horn arrangements were cool. (Genesis? Phil? Interchangeable) 100 better and way more interesting pop bands in the 80's.
Unique choice, for sure. Abacab is one of my least favourite Genesis albums. Maybe it's a drummer thing? There are some good tracks - Abacab, Dodo/Lurker, No Reply At All. But to my ear, so much of the rest of it is like an active attempt to annoy. Lots of brave choices by the band. But that doesn't mean the content is worthwhile. I"m a bit surprised to hear it lumped in with Duke though, because that album is absolutely incredible. Definitely a top 5 Genesis album for me. Anyway - great conversation here. Thanks.
I also liked this album as a kid. I prefer it over their later material and even above Duke because they were experimental and adventurous in this one, trying to sound fresh for the new decade taking the example of Peter Gabriel 3. It has staying power for me whereas A trick of the tail did not aged well for me. The pop songs in Duke and the latter material were too safe, they failed to be as interesting as the pop tunes in Abacab. I disagree about Whodunnit. Worst song they ever made alongside More Fool Me and most songs in We can dance.
Whodunnit is widely regarded as the most hated Genesis song of all time. I like the rest of the album. Abacab is one of the greatest running songs. There's something about the tempo and keyboard solo. Perfect jogging music.
hmm that would be interesting, we'd have to see if anyone is a contrarian on Whitesnake, I'm a fan of Whitesnake though nd would love to talk about them.
Other than "Who Dunnit" I really don't have any issue with Abacab. While I prefer the Gabriel years, I was introduced to Genesis during their 80s hits years. I worked backwards through the discography so I didn't have that initial connection with Gabriel.
I never cared for Genesis with Peter Gabriel. With Gabriel they were too trippy and prog for my ears. When Collins became the frontman and they became more pop rock than prog rock I enjoyed the records much more.
It's a brave choice by Martin, but I can't get behind it. I grew up in this era of Genesis, but I prefer the material before it. If I had to pick a contrarian album, I'm probably going with "A Trick of the Tail" or "...And Then There Were Three".
Yeah Abacab I’ve come around to; it’s just not my favorite. Definitely Foxtrot topping the list, Selling England, A Trick of the Tail (yeah I prefer Peter up front, but that’s an awesome LP, I don’t care), Lamb, Nursery Chryme, Wind & Wuthering, Trespass, Duke, Abacab . . Whatever’s left, toss around.
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My contrarian opinion on Genesis is that the self-titled one is probably my favorite of theirs for everything past Trick of the Tail. The reason is every single song on the record does something quite different than the others, making all the songs that much more important. You have the brooding Mama, the catchy lovers' angst of That's All, a dynamic prog tale in Home By the Sea/Second Home By the Sea (almost a post-modern Supper's Ready), the satire of Illegal Alien, the sympathetic and calming Taking it All Too Hard, Just a Job to Do which is a hard-driving ode to a hitman, the proggy stomp of Silver Rainbow with lots of metaphor and innuendo, the ethereal philosophy of It's Gonna Get Better. It's like a box of crayons every song bringing in something different.
Just a Job to Do is so much fun, what a great track. That while album, so good. (As you eloquently stated.)
Duke is my favourite Genesis album. I think has JUST the right blend of progressive and more 'immediate' music. The music is very good and the whole album ties together well conceptually and musically.
Abacab is a great album and really showcases Collins’ trademark drumming.
Abacab has ALWAYS been my favorite Genesis album.
Abacab is a great album and, by early 80's standards, of course it is prog. I never do understand those folks that just want re-treads of 1972-1974 albums. Musicians are not likely to want to stay in a time capsule and not change.
The honest musicians think this way.
@@joaod.andradecosme5869💸 😂
I've always listened to Duke and abacab together and they were my intro to Genesis. I've always loved the two and never understood why abacab got a bad wrap its one of there best, in my opinion. Phil's drumming was just stunning. Keep it Dark is one of my favourite Genesis tracks.
May I use this platform to point out how gorgeous the intro of Another Record is? Totally different from the rest of the song in tone, but so ominous and foreboding sounding. And it never repeats
As one of those rare people who loves the entire Genesis discography (yes, even their first and last albums), I have nothing whatsoever against their commercial 80's years.
I think both Duke and their self-titled albums are vastly superior to Abacab, but Abacab is still one of their bravest collections of songs.
The EWF strings. The short songs mixed with the remnants of their prog days. The strong influence of Phil Collins' newfound fame as a solo artist. I love it all.
The second half is definitely weaker than the first, but there's not a bad song on here. Even "Whodunnit" is hilarious. Annoying live, but great here. Just good fun.
Agree with you Space Cat. I even find value in Calling All Stations, although it's definitely their weakest record.
I am in Martin's corner. Abacab is my favourite Genesis album, and "Me and Sara Jane" and "Keep It Dark" have always been my favourite songs on the album. They are proggy without being too proggy, and poppy without too poppy. Perfect balance.
I'm with Martin here. What a brave move this was -the cover though for me relates to the modern abstract music within. The title track, Dodo-Lurker, Who Dunnit, and even Keep It Dark are all flipped out songs (in a good way). Genesis took a nod from Rush and scaled it way back and streamlined their sound - but this is a powerful, all caution to the wind album. It almost stands outside Genesis itself as a stand alone album where they never sounded like this again (a shame). Think about the cacophonous off the wall sound of Who Dunnit chugging down to the moody spacious and simple/quiet opening of Man On The Corner - the juxtaposition is brilliance!
Along with Duke, this was Genesis entering the modern age- in their maturity, musicality and again, bravery. It's hard to rank one of your fav bands albums but this is where I fully came to Genesis, so there's SOME sentimentality but Abacab is a strong musical statement and it's my number one, too (Duke No.2).
Martin's favourite Rush album is "Signals", so he'll always have my respect. My favourite Genesis album is "The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway", but I love Abacab. The sound is fantastic, Phil's drumming is awesome. "Invisible Touch" was my favourite for a long time. Now that's a contrarian choice.
I collected the studio albums in order of release so heard From Genesis To Revelation as though it was a new band as it was my introduction to a Genesis album. As I progressed through the albums I could hear what the band was trying to achieve. Trespass was in ways their New Testament and Nursery Cryme moving the story forward through Greek mythology and into morality plays on Foxtrot. Selling England was a Revenger's Tragedy and The Lamb pure Shakespeare. Trick and Wuthering was a return to the storybook pages of Trespass and Nursery Cryme. With ATTWT and Duke echoing Selling England and The Lamb. Abacab for me is a fresh start. A new Book Of Genesis. Gone are the Los Endos and Duke's Travels. Instead the Prog entrapment has been replaced by a freed up energy. I found it to be an exciting album and as has been said more Prog than previous albums. The band always sounded trapped on the early Collins albums.
very cool, good points and thank you for comments. I think Martin agrees with you on the progression of the band and Abacab. I didnt hate Abacab, but i thought that general consensus is probably right on the top albums being England and Lamb and even Foxtrot.
Excellent album and this tour was the peak of this lineup. Phil's vocals are amazing. Especially on that breakdown on No reply at all.
I often agree with your picks. I cant say this is my fave Genesis album but it sure is great. Keep it dark and me and Sarah jane are highlights.
Thanks for this episode as it helped reveal some things to me. I am a long time old Genesis prog fan and once I realized that the songs from 3 sides live, "Evidence of Autumn", "You might recall" and "Me and Virgil" were originally meant for Abacab, I can see Martin's view...I don't like some of the noisier, punk tracks on Ababac but with Sarah Jane and these 3 live sides B side songs added, that's an album of great prog pop song writing....
By the way if I might offer advice for Martin trying to really get hooked on the older Genesis prog, the song writing and gorgeous melodies and arrangements are all there in the albums "Nursery Cryme", "Foxtrot", "Selling England by the pound", "Trick of the Tail", "Wind and Wuthering" and even "And the there were three" but they each take up to 50 listens for each album to fully reveal all of the beauty so don't give up on them.
hmm good points thanks for the comments and the recommendation
@@thecontrarians2438 Thanks to you for all of your great work....Please give some of the Yes "Relayer" parts a chance as well as there are gorgeous melodies in the middle of this album.
@@thecontrarians2438 By the way, I love your work on "Sea of Tranquility" with Pete and watch every episode as that's Pete's best show with you...I'm in Regina, Saskatchewan so another Canadian.
@@mvancha haha i will!! Gates of Delirium is on the playlist right now!
This has long been one of my favorite Genesis albums since hearing it as a kid. I'd argue that it has certainly aged well cementing it's status as progressive music.
While I typically don't agree with Martin's choices, I applaud them. The Contrarians angle, that you like what you like, and that music often hits us the hardest during a particular window in our lives when we feel it the most, very much appeals to me.
Err...what other angle is there? You listen to what you like or you don't listen at all, right? The only other angles I can think of are when people are such hopeless sheep
that they listen to whatever's trending at the moment to fit in, or if someone is being forced to listen to something (i.e. torture).
@@SpaceCattttt Well, there you go, partner.
ABACAB was the first Genesis album I heard, as an 11-year old kid. I bought the Paperlate 45 and You Might Recall became my all-time favorite Genesis song, as well. Love to hear you talk about this!
Thank you!!
Hey guys, couple of things. First off, funny that Martin picks Abacab, Duke and Lamb as his 3 favs. I listed those 3 on a FB thread 3 days ago as my 3 favs too so we agree! But my main point is that the counter argument seemed to center around if Abacab was “proggy” enough, whatever that really even means. Who cares? The focus on judging any record should be on the quality of the material, the production and whether the artist accomplished what they tired to accomplish. Not whether or not they are fitting into some sort of genre or pleasing their fan base.
I agree with all that was said, this is best sounding Genesis record by far, amazing production and engineering. They set out to not make a typical Genesis record and I believe they accomplished this while still sounding like Genesis. I think it would’ve been stronger had Man on the corner and who dunnit been replaced by paperlate and you might recall or submarine but it’s still great and luckily we have iTunes playlists where we can add the extra tunes.
Wow great points! Ya the counter point was brought on by a lot of the slag Martin got for picking Abacab on another program, and most of that was because it wasnt proggy enough, but i agree, i didnt think the record was super offensive so i didnt put Martin's feet to the fire to hard!
not sure if anyone mentioned this but the photo you put up for Genesis's first record was incorrect. Their first record was "From Genesis to Revelation" The one your showing was their 12th Studio album from 1983, it contained "Mama", Home By The Sea, Illegal Alien, That's All, Second Home By The Seas (great instrumental song), Taking it all to Hard and Silver Rainbow. That was a mostly prog record I'd say. "From Genesis to Revelation" had ' Where the Sour Turns to Sweet, Am I very Wrong, etc. That was just an FYI and I enjoyed the discussion as a lifelong Genesis fan.
And being a lifelong Genesis fan I've just come to accept that a band with this much talent was going to evolve and spin-off branches, like a family tree and we needed to embrace it all. We can still have favorite eras but it all stems from the love of the band.
A while back I read an interview with Phil who was asked about the fan backlash from the direction they were heading after surprisingly Steve had left and the thing he said never left me. He said he never understood what the backlash about the music they were currently making was all about. He continued to say as people grow and as we mature as humans the musical influences and what we listen to hopefully matures as well. He then asked the interviewer if they listen to the same music they listened to 15 years or so ago, she said no and Phil followed by saying "If we as individuals in a band are listening to different music as well, then all of that music we consumed on our own will inevitably show up somehow in the music we collaborate on and eventually create, and because of that it's not going to sound the same as what we did with Steve or Peter, we're human just like you.
You’re right about the photo was a slight oversight!
.... and great points! Interesting to read Phil's comments! they would have added nicely into the episode to help martin's points. Thank you for the comments!
Great review from both of you guys. I like all the eras of the band but I would have prefer to have Hackett for a longer period. You have to appreciate the band at those particular time frames but they never forgot their prog roots. It's what keep their music always different and on many occasions, refreshing.
Thank you for your comments!!
I have officially realized that I am truly a contrarian. I often agree with Martin's choices on these but, this one has been my favorite Genesis album since it came out. I honestly didn't listen to the Peter Gabriel era until decades later. I do quite enjoy them but, I'm partial to the Phil Collins era by a lot.
@Martin Popoff /. No way, many many times, when you pick an album, that I always stressed, and others say over the years”. Gary , your crazy “! I say to myself. Yes. Martin is with me. Lol. 👀 Look , the COMBO of you and Mike PORTNOY “ double teaming” PETE , made him come on yesterday showing his CD LONDON CALLING( just purchased). Good stuff 👍💯
Has a 80's kid growing up didn't hear a lot of Peter Gabriel's era on the radio but did hear alot of Phil's era and fell in love with those albums. I didn't hear the Peter Gabriel era for very long time before I got into them
A great dark horse pick I agree with Martin. The members in interviews state it's their most deliberate break from their past, but i still think this was the last truly excellent album as a whole, where as the following albums all had some patchiness/lesser songs. They now had their own studio and more time to explore and experiment than previous albums (like Martin said, there was a double albums worth of a wide variety of songs. If you look at their prog peers like ELP, Jethro Tull, King Crimson, and Yes... all of them streamlined/went more pop with their songs in the 80s for the "MTV" era ...but I think Genesis songwriting strength is what lead them to all of those hit singles, and superstardom... with only YES being somewhat comparable with the success of 90215.
Love these shows as they highlight how subjective art is. Just like if you goto a big art gallery with some friends you will encounter paintings some in your group really like and some do not like much or at all. The same way with pottery, literature, sculpture, etc...the art we are drawn to depends on who we are as people and where we came from.
interesting point Steve, yes sometimes we put up videos and read the range of comments from people either agreeing or disagreeing or in the middle, nothing is ever 100% agreed upon, and thus is the basis of our show!
I have chosen my favourite songs from Duke and Abacab and combined them together to make a best of from the two albums (12 songs in total):
1. Behind the Lines (Duke)
2. Man Of Our Times (Duke)
3. Misunderstanding (Duke)
4. Turn It On Again (Duke)
5. Abacab (Abacab)
6. No Reply At All (Abacab)
7. Me And Sarah Jane (Abacab)
8. Keep It Dark (Abacab)
9. Dodo, Lurker (Abacab)
10. Paperlate (Abacab Sessions)
11. You Might Recall (Abacab Sessions)
12. Me And Virgil (Abacab Sessions)
great track listing! this album would have been undeniable!
I recently did a Genesis ranking video on my channel and put Abacab quite high up and got loads of people saying I knew nothing about music! I love all their albums but for me this is a great prog pop record. Keep it dark and man on the corner are my favourites
Haha join the club! People have accused me of knowing nothing too! Lol it’s all good music is subjective! Keep doing what you’re doing!
What a great album! It’s my drum record as well - fantastic sound, Phil plays perfectly just what it needs, no overplaying, great groove.
The songs are awesome, the reduced sound is stunning.
I‘m completely with Martin.
I really do think this album is in their top three. It's poppy, but it's art rock at it's finest.
Always loved this album. Released my senior year in High School. My first Genesis album was Duke, which is my personal favorite. I played that thing to death and consider it one of my favorite “headphones” albums. ABACAB always sounded good to me also. Agree with both of you that Keep It Dark is the best song. Was mystified when I’m seeing people trash this album. Hearing Martin describe his relationship with Kansas music is exactly how I feel about early Genesis - never really got into them and anytime I listen to them it’s like brand new material.
Genesis is one of my favorite bands - ever! I started to listen to them around 1980 and I immediately fell in love with albums like "A Trick of the Tail", "Selling England by the Pound", and even "Duke". And then abacab came out. And I am still angry with them for going in that direction. I get it. They lost their lead guitarist when Steve Hackett left in 1977. They wanted to make some money. But why, oh why, could they just not continue with the direction they were going in with "Duke". I never minded some Pop on a Genesis album - the Pop songs "sell" the album. But abacab onward was a "sell out", pure and simple. (But, kudos to you, because your opinion is certainly "Contrarian". :) )
Do you like Phil Collins?
I've been a big Genesis fan ever since the release of their 1980 album, Duke. Before that, I really didn't understand any of their work. Too artsy, too intellectual. It was on Duke where Phil Collins' presence became more apparent. I think Invisible Touch was the group's undisputed masterpiece. It's an epic meditation on intangibility. At the same time, it deepens and enriches the meaning of the preceding three albums. Listen to the brilliant ensemble playing of Banks, Collins and Rutherford. You can practically hear every nuance of every instrument. In terms of lyrical craftsmanship, the sheer songwriting, this album hits a new peak of professionalism.
Take the lyrics to Land of Confusion. In this song, Phil Collins addresses the problems of abusive political authority. In Too Deep is the most moving pop song of the 1980s, about monogamy and commitment. The song is extremely uplifting. Their lyrics are as positive and affirmative as anything I've heard in rock. Phil Collins' solo career seems to be more commercial and therefore more satisfying, in a narrower way. Especially songs like In the Air Tonight and Against All Odds. But I also think Phil Collins works best within the confines of the group, than as a solo artist, and I stress the word artist. This is Sussudio, a great, great song, a personal favorite.
wow ya great comment! I dont mind Phil Collins at all, but its pretty clear most genesis fans prefer the era was Gabriel was the front man, I think Martin is in the same kind of boat where the earlier records just really didn't stick with him.
@@thecontrarians2438 haha man, I was joking around. This actually was a quote from Patrick Bateman in the movie american psycho, I found it really appropriate for the occasion...
Serious comment now (real opinion): I actually don't like to think of "80s genesis" and "70s genesis" as the same band. I think they both have their own merits, but all in all they are too hard to compare because the styles are totally different. Of course you could kind of say the same about the King Crimson 80s albums for example, but I think it's very different. For one, I'd say pretty much all KC albums are different from the one before, or at least their style is very very varied overall, so the 80s albums having a different style isn't all that strange. Also, KC always tried to "stay" progressive, whereas genesis with ABACAB was actually trying to dissasociate itself from its former prog era, at least that's how I feel about it. Of course I'm not saying ABACAB is devoid of proggy elements... But then again, The police, for example, which isn't prog at all, showcases many proggy elements nonetheless. Overall I like the 70s era better, I just find the songs much more memorable, though I'm not saying 80s era is bad - I love songs like Abacab, Jesus he knows me, etc.
If I had to rank the albums it'd be:
1. Selling England by the pound
2. Foxtrot
3. A trick of the tail
4. Nursery cryme
5. Duke (I actually think Duke is very progressive and cool, while adding new poppy elements - still consider it to be 70s style genesis)
6. Tresspass
7. And then there were three
Two albums I don't like that much, funnily enough, are Lamb Lies Down and Wind and wuthering (the first one is probably the most polemic opinion). I just don't find them memorable. Quoting Martin, "every time I listen to them it's like something new". In contrast, I know all Selling England songs pretty much by heart. The songwriting on the first few albums on my list is superb, I specially love how they can make a song catchy without adhering to straightforward song structures - The cinema show, for example, is basically two parts that don't really have that much to do with each other, first the actual song part and then the keyboard solo/instrumental. It's a totally asymetrical song, yet it feels really natural and compact, like nothing is missing, nor is there filler. That's just one example - others would be the great Supper's ready or Firth of fifth, just to name a few
@@anti-hermes2541 lol never seen the movie! Patrick Bateman sounds like a nice guy. Sorry that went right over my head, maybe i should be a little more concerned with Martin....
I remember an interview where Phil said (I'm paraphrasing) 'where were all the fans of those records (meaning Nursery.. to Lamb) when we were trying to sell those albums?' and also even Steve Hacket said 'only in Italy did those old record sell at that time, and only in retrospect did they become sellers'. I tend to agree with Tony Banks when talking about 'the lamb..' album describing the music as great, but the story/lyrics as not very strong. I also feel the story of 'the lamb..' is kind of all over the place and people really want to find more meaning in it than there actually is. My favorite is 'A trick of the tail'. As for 'Abacab' I feel it's good but not very consistent, when I think of 'no reply..' I get more of the crazy keyboard riff than the actual horns on it, it is a contrarian pick, but again I love all eras of this band.
You're absolutely right! Thank you for your comments! Interesting to know the classic albums were popular in Italy!
Gabriel era Genesis snobs tend to dismiss this album. Yes, this is more poppy, but it is excellent pop/rock music. It has proggy elements but lacks the complex time signatures of early Genesis. This is one of my faves, but I believe that Trick of the Tail is probably my favorite. I love the Gabriel era Genesis music but the audio is subpar on the early records.
17:43 Martin was talking about the debut record not the s/t record from the 80s.
Ya you're right! was an oversight!
Great episode. First album I heard was the self-titled, which is my favourite of the post--Gabriel era but I still like Abacab. Selling England is my all time favorite. Don't know if you realised that the cover of genesis '83 was shown as being of their debut "From Genesis to Relevation".
haha ya you're right! slight oversight thanks!
I have seen a fair amount of times people dismiss Abacab but then praise Genesis '83. I like Abacab far more than Genesis '83. On Abacab for the most part I hear some good pop songs, a few really great prog tracks and tracks that find a sweet spot between the two styles. The only issue I have with Abacab is that I think Who Dunnit should have been a b-side and I would have preferred Submarine to be on Abacab. On Genesis '83 I think there's a few good tracks but I can't get into Home By The Sea which I guess would be the proggy track on that album and I think the straight up pop songs are pretty awful.
That was one of the first Genesis albums I heard growing up. My first 3 album I heard were: Abacab, Genesis and invisible touch.
Abacab was the band's bravest album since The Lamb. It was a conscious effort to take a new approach and also to experiment. That inevitably led to some inconsistency. I think if they had included the five tracks left off and made it a double album it would have been better as the full variety of their music would have been displayed.
Always a pleasure to watch Martin on here as well as SoT.
"Abacab" is a great album. It's starker than their earlier stuff, but it's very well produced. I agree, Phil's drum sound is the best of any Genesis studio album. It's was a necessary album for them to flourish on FM and touring during the 80s. I wish they had made "Abacab" it a double album including the more prog stuff to balance it out the pop stuff.
I think Pardo's audience and Pardo himself have this anachronic, no synths just guitars, early Queen manifesto way of thinking about, not just prog but rock in general. Also Pardo doesn't like punk so he never talks about post-punk, new wave, hardcore, goth, synth pop, industrial, ska, I mean a lot of genres which defined the 80's and influenced much of the the 90's and part of the 2000's alternative rock music. So of course no fans of that channel would consider Abacab part of the prog rock cannon. Growing up in the 80's I love Abacab and it was the first Genesis album I listened to, that was my music while Gabriel's Genesis was like "my uncle's music" literally, cause my uncle loved early Genesis, was a Lamb guy. So there is two ways of thinking about prog, Pardo's way "Prog is about recreating the 70's prog band's sound and about virtuosity", and then what Popoff said here "Prog is about moving forward and trying something new". So for me the post punk krautonian bands were like the second wave of prog, and the post-rock (Mogwai, Sigur Ros), post metal (Isis, Russian Circles) and prog metal (Tool and Meshuggah) from the 90's and 00's were then the third wave of prog more than Dream Theatre in the 90's or Marillion in the so called "second wave", bands which were just "trying to be prog".
Pete Pardo likes a lot of bands with keyboards/synths. He likes artists like Bowie and XTC. He's also really into jazz/fusion. I would suggest you have a narrow view of what you think he's into. I can't agree with you at all that Marillion or Dream Theater are just 'trying to be prog'. They're great bands. Marillion merged prog with commercial soft rock and pop sensibilities more successfully in the 1980s than Genesis did, in my opinion. Dream Theater are prog metal just like Tool and Meshuggah, but with more melodic elements.
@@jimmycampbell78 I talked to Pete about XTC and the Police. I joked with him and told him he should cut his hair, dye it green and began an "alternative Pete" channel after the XTC episode, so he told me those two bands were the exception. In another video he admits he only likes the hits from the Police. I listed to him a bunch of classic, even Rock hall of famers New Wave and Post Punk bands and he despies them. So liking just XTC doesn't count. I know prog and jazz fusion bands used keyboards to include long solos like Keith Emerson but that is still the old way for using the keyboard. That "look at me, Im a virtuoso" kind of way, like using guitar for long solos. That is what punk took care off basically. I suggest you watch the BBC documentary "Synth Britannia", it's about those things Im talking about. I like Dream Theatre but you can't compare them to the later prog metal bands. There this book called "Mean Deviation" about prog metal, Great book about the subject. I never got into Marillion but I don't know if merging soft rock with prog looks appealing to me. Outside Steely Dan soft rock is the thing I try to stay away, (not the same as synth pop or power pop). You could argue Rush, Genesis and Yes were trying to be synth pop and New Wave in the 80's, or King Crimson post-punk). So not liking soft rock is my narrow view about music there lol cause I like every other genre from what's consider rock music by say the All Music rock guide which includes all the alternative and black music genres as rock, not a narrow view at all.
@@MsKalachakra Yes, I know the bands you mean. I like a lot of punk/New Wave bands - Television, The Clash, Joy Division, Talking Heads. I like Peter Gabriel, Kate Bush and some Bryan Ferry from the 80s. But I still prefer 1970s Genesis and particularly Gabriel-era to 1980s Genesis.
Marillion with Fish were making the type of albums in the 1980s that I would have liked the Gabriel-era Genesis to make in the 1980s, if they had stayed together.
I think for Pete Pardo, during the 1980s in particular he was really into NWOBHM bands, classic metal and thrash so he probably didn't ever really get into that side of music. He went from heavier music and being a metal guy, back to prog.
I've become really immersed in these music discussion RUclips channels over the past few months and I really appreciate the content that Pete Pardo puts out, the regularity, the guests (Martin is always good value, no matter how much I'm agreeing or disagreeing) and interviews. I generally prefer to concentrate on things I have in common with people when it comes to music tastes as well. And I do have a lot of classic rock and metal in common with Pete and presumably the majority of his audience.
What I don't really understand is when anyone more or less dismisses a whole genre of music, when the term itself (be it 'punk', 'grunge' 'blackgaze' or whatever) is usually music-media created and quite often meaningless. The lines are much more fluid and hazy than that and quite often even the biggest bands in each genre don't sound that much alike, or have a large range of different influences and just happen to have ended up doing a vaguely similar thing at about the same time (or location).
Maybe it's just my bad-natured bemusement at the idea that Kansas, Styx, ELP, IQ, Dream Theater or whoever somehow 'kick more ass' than Bad Brains, Husker Du, Minutemen and Fugazi and so on.
Tastes though - strange things! And I have actually learned to appreciate a fair bit of progressive rock over the years, for which I should be congratulated because it wasn't easy. If you're coming from the opposite direction (a progger attempting punk shall we say) all I can say is that..well, the songs are a lot shorter so it should..be...easier??
I totally agree that 'prog' should be as much about the actual progressive intent of the artists as much as describing something pristinely produced with tricky time signatures.
@@paulh6673 I think music in general comes in cycles. So prog, punk, post-punk, metal genres, hip hop, soul, krautrock, mod, all had their birth, life and death as "the shit". of course there always will be second or third waves and imitators, or bands that are trying to recreate a sound, a movement or a point in time. I personally like almost all genres and subgenres with very few exceptions. I know there are people that like "just one or two things", they live in tribes and that's ok too. In the case of punk it came with a mission and it was to erase corporate and prog rock from the face of the earth lol. like Nirvana did again in the 90''s, of course that's kind of silly but it's funny at the same time. With punk, it was the first time a youth movement were going against another youth movement, the hippies for example. The idea was to recover rock and make it exiting again and not about what is "easier" to play. Remember this? "there's 3 chords" now let's have a band thing? Ok so the idea is the rock music in not about vrtuosity or skills but more about the feeling, originality and just being alive. So what Pete does and I don't agree is saying "rock is the things I like" (metal, classic rock and prog) and all the rest I don't like is not rock. Of course I can appreciate the time and effort he puts into his channel, he is a very passionate guy but I always like to make fun of his way of thinking.
ABACAB
(Verse) A (Chorus) B (Verse) A (Bridge) C (Verse) A (Chorus) B but as pointed out..that isn't how the song ended up.
How's this for Contrarian? I love the Peter Gabriel era material, but prefer it sung by Phil Collins. Comparing any songs that were sung by each singer, I have always preferred how Phil delivered them over Peter. The music speaks for itself. "Seconds Out' (1977) is by far my favorite Genesis album followed by "A Trick of the Tail" from 1976. Which brings us to Abacab.
I have always preferred the more progressive side of the band and the more commercial they got, the more difficult it was for me to enjoy them. For me Abacab sits very nicely between "Duke" (1980) and "Genesis" (1983). "Duke" has a familiar connection to albums like ""And Then There Were Three" (1978). It has that older style Genesis vibe going on with it while clearly not as progressive as "A Trick of the Tail" was. "Duke" has the signs of where they would be heading in the future. Songs like "Misunderstanding" and "Turn It On Again" could very easily have been on "Abacab" and fit in nicely. But songs like "Man of Our Times", "Behind the Lines", "Heathaze" have a closer connection to their previous releases.
"Abacab" takes the direction of "Turn It On Again" and "Misunderstanding" with the songs, "Abacab", "No Reply At All", ""Like It or Not", Me and Sarah Jane", and "Dodo/Lurker" while songs like "Keep It Dark", "Who Dunnit?", and "Man on the Corner" were even more popish and would have fit nicely on the "Genesis" album in 1983.
The "Genesis" album released in 1983 carry over from "Abacab" songs like "Home By the Sea", "Second Home By the Sea" and "Mama" but they really go commercial with "That's All", "Illegal Alien", "Taking It All Too Hard". It would really become extreme on 1986's
"Invisible Touch". By then, they are full on pop.
So while I love half of "Abacab", I prefer all of "Duke" in comparison. But...again my favorite studio album was "A Trick of the Tail".
I like Abacab, but my opinions on the band are a bit weird since i got into Genesis starting with the Collins fronted stuff (Invisible Touch to be exact).
If you are a progressive rock band and never change up your sound,are you truly progressive! I was not too thrilled with the Collins era of the band,but realized these guys are smart and will eventually change it up! Abacab is the best I believe from that time with this band. Great arguments!
Great points and thank you! It’s nice to see respectful disagreements!
Martin , I always enjoy your contrarian opinions , as it pushes me to re-evaluate my opinions on some music . I prefer the Gabriel era of Genesis , but I also like a lot of the post Gabriel albums . However , leaving a song like You Might Recall off of Abacab , and including a song like Whodunnit instead , is about as mystifying as it gets . I also would have included Me & Virgil instead of Dodo / Lurker , and added Paperlate . In my view , the inclusion of these songs would have made it a much stronger album . Anyway , I always enjoy your views.
Excellent show, gentlemen! Thank you for the entertainment 😎
Glad you enjoyed it
Abacab is my second-favorite Genesis album - the first is Trespass. A different view, I know. I can relate to Martin saying that the earlier Genesis albums never sink in for him - I’ve had sort of the same experience with everything from Nursery Cryme to And Then There Were Three. And I’m a big prog fan - though to be fair, Genesis was the last of the Big Six that I started delving into.
I can also relate somewhat to his statement about liking the stripped-down, poppier later stuff by classic prog acts. I did go to high school in the early ‘80s, so I do have that connection to that sort of thing, though.
very cool thank you for the comments!
Abacab was my #1 also when we ranked Genesis on our channel.
Wow very cool! Good to see we’re not alone!
Abacab is one of the best produced albums of all time. Lots of Prog albums can get convoluted with so much going on at once, with every instrument almost fighting for your attention. This is a taut and focused record. Everything is laid out in front of the listener without clutter. For example, listen to the percussion accents in Lurker during Banks' lead synth line. Listen to Duke and Abacab back to back to hear the differences. I only wish the "Mama" album sonically sounded as good.
Absolutely! Great points 👍
Abacab is great as the way it is. IT is like the Bridge passing thru the old stuff to their newer sound at the time.
Love this album, it's only been within the last few years that I discovered it was a contentious release. 3 Sides Live the follow up was also amazing.
I think the title track is prog as fuck. Insane chord inversions, modulations, a sick extended improv jam in the outro...it's by far my fave Genesis track.
Title track sounds like Joy Division cover, like does "Keep it Dark"
I love it when Martin picks a “way out there” contrarian album. Prog purists may be more vocal in their disdain of Abacab but I bet a huge number of fans would pick Duke as the favorite.
This album is in my top 5 Genesis albums, would probably be top 3 if Who Dunnit wasn't on it and instead Paperlate and You Might Recall were present. Favorite songs include Abacab, Like It Or Not and Keep It Dark. Man On The Corner I really like too, sure it's a ballad but also a very thought provoking one especially in the lyrics. Great episode!
Thank you!! Appreciate the comment!
I have only just got round to listening to this episode and I was amused by some of Marco's comments particularly his claim that people think this album is too much like pop and not progressive enough. Generally when people say that what they really mean is that it doesn't sound like Genesis did in 1972! Well of course it doesn't! Why would it? Just because an album doesn't sound like the band did 10 years earlier it doesn't mean it is less progressive. Musically and lyrically ABACAB is just as progressive as the earlier Genesis albums but time, technology and band members had moved on! How can you properly appreciate a band when you want them to remain stuck in time, never changing their sound or experimenting with anything new. That is not being progressive!
yep you are right! I amuse myself sometimes too lol, no but i agree and disagree with some of the comments i do think there are elements of prog rock in abacab but i also would say some of the earlier stuff fits more neatly into the progressive genre better. Its all good though, i didn't mind Abacab!
I love the channel and the concept of not agreeing with the majority, but here it went a little too much against the grain. Genesis is one of my favourite acts in music ( I'm from Brazil and I was at the now historical 1977 tour down here, the first shows without Gabriel, and the first time that lasers were used in a concert in South America). They have three albums that I think are masterpieces of Progressive Rock and will always be at the top of my list and are untouchables: Foxtrot, Nursery Crime and Selling England. The sacred triad of Genesis in my modest opinion. Great, great show as always!
Thank you for the comments!
@Martin Popoff very kind of you to reply to my comment! Keep contrarian Martin! Your genuine and passionate antagonism is the rich fuel for endless new and healthy discussions and analysis. For me the most important and necessary quality in being a contrarian is that sheds unprecedented light to rediscover, with your incomparable ( and heartfull) knowledge, semi forgotten or depreciated albums, even despised ones, in most of the times an unfair tag stick upon them, implemented only by the opinion of the majority.
I love Peter Gabriel era Genesis. The Lamb Lies Down On Broadway is one of my favorite prog albums of all time. Love Selling England By The Pound and the albums that came before that as well. When it comes to the Phil Collins era I'm not a big fan. The only album I really like from that era is Duke.
Don't know Genesis well enough to rank albums, and get where fans of earlier stuff would dismiss Abacab. It being first Genesis album I heard means I'm biased- but really dig Abacab. Agree with Martin's sound of drums take. And damn the title track and Keep it Dark are superb!
This has always been my favourite Genesis album.
I agree with Martin. I just can’t get into Peter Gabriel’s genesis. I do however love abacab. Great album.
Abacab is a really good album. A very decent follow up to Duke (my favourite Genesis album). Only the tracks "Who dun it/Lurker" are so so.
Abacab, the beginning of the end of the prog era for Genesis !! Nonsense Pop took over !!!!
Again, in 1981 being 18-19 yrs old , i was into “ heavier” stuff. So didn’t purchase this on cassette then. Maybe in 96?/ 97? I bought it on CD because I knew the big hits from radio. I got it cause one day I heard Keep it dark. ( underrated song IMO. So, as years go by, I liked this more. Appreciate it more. 6.5-7.0 on scale 1-10. Great show guys. !!👍💯
Thanks Gary!! Keep it dark was one Martin and I both agreed on!
I think this view is only contrarian to, as Martin called them "the old prog heads". For many other fans, this was the album that put Genesis on the map in a much larger sense. Great discussion!
Thanks for the comment! I wasnt super offended by Martin's choice so i didnt hold his feet to the fire too much, but im sure quite a few others would have.
Genesis fans often fall into two different camps, 70s Prog era, and latter-day pop era, so it really depends on who you ask. There are probably lots of people who'd tell you Invisible Touch is their best album.
@@keviniles8748 there could be (about invisible touch), but i haven't met any yet!
@@thecontrarians2438 Well, lets put it this way. Genesis is supposed to tour later this year. I'm willing to bet those stadiums full of people are not going to be there to hear Supper's Ready, but as soon as the intro to Invisible Touch hits they'll go bonkers. You can't argue that 80s genesis is far more popular than the 70s Prog era. Perhaps those fans are just not as vocal in their views. It may be a more casual fandom whereas old school prog fans are more dedicated.
@@keviniles8748 you might absolutely be right about that! We kind of had a discussion about this with Def Leppard, where their 80's records Pyromania and Hysteria are unbelievably popular records, but hardcore Def Leppard fans will probably go with the early records as their fave like high n dry and on through the night, but go to a live gig and i bet the opening to "pour some sugar" gets the best reaction!
Abacab is also my favorite Genesis album with Duke coming in a close 2nd.
I prefer Gabriel era Genesis, with The Lamb Lies Down On Broadway being my favourite album of all time. But I agree that Abacab is underrated. Especially side A is really good
I think Abacab is proggy enough to be considered for a "favorite prog album list." Some people hear too many hooks and not enough guitar in an album and instantly consider it pop. But that's not always true.
That being said, Abacab would come in at #9 on my list of favorite Genesis albums. My most contrarian opinion would be putting the 1983 self-titled album in my top three.
Great point, well said, and ya you probably would be considered Contrarian! I didn't have a huge issue with Abacab that's why i didn't go after Martin as hard as some of the commentators have when he's talked about it in the past.
This late era of Genesis is prog because they progressed to something that isn't prog? Is prog simply progressing to different musical styles? If so, I guess the Bee Gees and Fleetwood Mac might be the greatest prog bands of all time.
I do like the Abacab album though. But, they sound more like the Police than anything else at this point.
Good video!
Just had another listen to `Abacab` and enjoyed it more than I was expecting to! I can`t stand `No Reply At All` and could live without `Who dunnit` but if you were to take those two off and add `Paperlate`, plus the superb `You Might Recall`and `Me and Virgil` then I`d count it as a pretty decent Genesis album
Awesome thanks for the comment! You're probably right about the track listing.
@@thecontrarians2438 Pleasure. Thank you for doing this one I`m really glad you did. Haven`t played it for years and now have a new found respect for the album!
Abacab is great! It's great proggy fun! Take out Whodunit though, not a fan, but wake up sheeple! Love this choice, even though I would rank other Genesis albums higher.
I am always intrigued by others with different opinions than mine. I would tend to agree with the popular consensus the Selling England... is the best and ABACAB is actually one of my least favorites, so it's very interesting to see someone who loves it. It does make we want to give it another listen though. Perhaps I will hear it with a different perspective. Also, I wanna say that I also very much enjoy Drama by Yes. It's not my favorite, but I do quite enjoy it.
Ya absolutely, i wasnt super offended by abacab so i didn't hold martins feet to the fire too much but i know there is a lot of disdain for the record. England is classic Genesis all the way. When it comes to YES, i say Close to the Edge. We actually did a YES episode if you haven't seen it.
Why did you flash the "Genesis" LP when Martin mentioned their debut??? That was, like, 1983 or so.
Simple mistake, i'll yell at the editing guy again!
@@thecontrarians2438 Figured as much. Genesis to Revelation was a waste of vinyl and Genesis gave us Mama and a few other gems. (not to mention wood pulp, but this isn't a comment on religion, is it?)
Abacab is genesis's most varied album from the soul of no reply at all to the strange and beatlesque me and Sarah Jane to me 80s Genesis is just excellent
I’m a big fan of this record. Is it prog? I always kinda hate that question. I love prog but I love a lot of not-prog too. Good music is good music, forget the categories. I wouldn’t personally pick this as my favourite Genesis album (that’s probably Selling England), but it’s an excellent album.
Good on you Martin, no it’s not one of the so called classic albums by the band but ABACAB holds up really well. It’s a strong album but for different reasons than the earlier releases and yes, I think it’s still just in the prog camp.
Wow, that's a very contrarian choice. Abacab is a great album. I like it a lot, but it is far from my favorite. As my favorite my brain wants to pick "The Lamb", but "A Trick of the Tail" and "Wind and Wuthering" are the ones I find myself listening to the most.
Agreed! and your top Genesis albums are all superb picks!
I could never get into the Peter Gabriel era of Genesis, (I've tried)so I prefer from Trick Of The Tail through Invisible Touch. But I get where early era fans of Genesis are coming from. For me it would be like how I feel towards the 80's Chicago albums, where it is nothing like the horn/guitar driven music of their early albums.
I also prefer the Phil Collins era of Genesis, but try re-listing to the songs "In The Cage", "The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway" and "Anyway." All off of The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway album.
I'll be contrarian by saying that I really don't like or can't get into "Selling England by the Pound", even though I adore Nursery, Foxtrot and Lamb. To me "Selling" has a BIG "POP" feel to it, especially for a "real" prog album. Abacab is fine album imho.
Wind and Wuthering is their best and most creative album. Eleventh Earl of Mar, One for the Vine, Blood on the Rooftops and Your Own special way on the Album are outstanding tracks.
Can I point out that when you were referring to the debut album you were actually showing the cover to the self titled album which was released in 1983. The debut is From Genesis To Revelation which sounds nothing like future Genesis albums, it’s more bee gees type psych pop.
you are absolutely correct.
Abacab is post punk album. The influences of Joy Division and PIL are eminent.
I agree the drums sound amazing
I think Abacab is a good album not my fav but a decent record. My choice is maybe more contrarian, I love the self-titled album from 83 and always have and always will. I actually prefer Peter Gabriel's solo albums more than his Genesis records especially the first 4 albums, genius stuff.
I'm guilty as charged. I am one of those people that said Abacab was not prog on that coment section referred to. I feel that they stopped being prog when And Then They Were Three came out. However, Abacab was the first Genesis album that I listened to. Therefore, I don't have the bias of being attached to the prog era when first hearing it. I don't think I knew what prog was when Abacab came out. I am fond of Abacab. I think it is their best album after Steve Hackett left. I consider it to be a perfect album. I like all the songs. However, once I started listening to the prog material, I found that stuff to be more interesting and creative. By the way, since I never heard the last album, I would put And Then They Were Three as my least favorite with the debut being slightly above it. I have Lamb as #1.
I didnt think it sounded very progressive either to be honest, especially when going back and listening to earlier stuff as well.
I think Abacab is a great record. Not a bad song on the record - I used to hate Whodunnit, but over the years I finally got what they were trying to do. Kinda like McCartney II from around the same time. My 3 favorite songs on here are Me and Sarah Jane, No Reply at All, and Man on the Corner. Man on the Corner is notable for covering the same ground as Another Day in Paradise, without being preachy. It is also musically superior.
Duke for my no.1,..but this a close 2nd!
It’s the best Genesis album of the 80s. Duke is fantastic but it was recorded in 1979!
I can't describe what I feel about Abacab in words, so will use this instead: Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaarghhhhhhh!!!!
haha i dontt feel exactly the same but i dont blame you!
@@thecontrarians2438 Lol.
I'm glad Genesis made a ton of money, but I didn't buy any of this stuff from Duke on. Turn It On Again was a nice pop song. Some of the horn arrangements were cool. (Genesis? Phil? Interchangeable) 100 better and way more interesting pop bands in the 80's.
Apparently the classic albums were popular in Italy, so maybe they did make a bit money early on!
Unique choice, for sure. Abacab is one of my least favourite Genesis albums. Maybe it's a drummer thing? There are some good tracks - Abacab, Dodo/Lurker, No Reply At All. But to my ear, so much of the rest of it is like an active attempt to annoy. Lots of brave choices by the band. But that doesn't mean the content is worthwhile.
I"m a bit surprised to hear it lumped in with Duke though, because that album is absolutely incredible. Definitely a top 5 Genesis album for me.
Anyway - great conversation here. Thanks.
Thank you for your comments!!
I also liked this album as a kid. I prefer it over their later material and even above Duke because they were experimental and adventurous in this one, trying to sound fresh for the new decade taking the example of Peter Gabriel 3.
It has staying power for me whereas A trick of the tail did not aged well for me.
The pop songs in Duke and the latter material were too safe, they failed to be as interesting as the pop tunes in Abacab.
I disagree about Whodunnit. Worst song they ever made alongside More Fool Me and most songs in We can dance.
Whodunnit is widely regarded as the most hated Genesis song of all time. I like the rest of the album. Abacab is one of the greatest running songs. There's something about the tempo and keyboard solo. Perfect jogging music.
yep i think youre right!
Can you do a whitesnake contrarian show?
hmm that would be interesting, we'd have to see if anyone is a contrarian on Whitesnake, I'm a fan of Whitesnake though nd would love to talk about them.
Other than "Who Dunnit" I really don't have any issue with Abacab. While I prefer the Gabriel years, I was introduced to Genesis during their 80s hits years. I worked backwards through the discography so I didn't have that initial connection with Gabriel.
offend is a pretty strong word.
Why search past Firth?
I never cared for Genesis with Peter Gabriel. With Gabriel they were too trippy and prog for my ears. When Collins became the frontman and they became more pop rock than prog rock I enjoyed the records much more.
I like ABACAB a lot, but I think my favorite Genesis album is Trick of The Tale.
Front to back Trick of the Tale is my favourite Genesis album as well.
@@Danimal77 At least for posr-Peter Gabriel era. Favorite Gabe era is Foxtrot and Tresspass.
It's a brave choice by Martin, but I can't get behind it. I grew up in this era of Genesis, but I prefer the material before it. If I had to pick a contrarian album, I'm probably going with "A Trick of the Tail" or "...And Then There Were Three".
Yeah Abacab I’ve come around to; it’s just not my favorite. Definitely Foxtrot topping the list, Selling England, A Trick of the Tail (yeah I prefer Peter up front, but that’s an awesome LP, I don’t care), Lamb, Nursery Chryme, Wind & Wuthering, Trespass, Duke, Abacab . . Whatever’s left, toss around.