Midland -- Why the bill of sale is not enough to prove ownership
HTML-код
- Опубликовано: 2 мар 2021
- I share some illustrations and arguments that I have not shared before (along with some that we always use). Hope you find this helpful.
Thanks for watching!
John
John G. Watts
Watts & Herring, LLC
Representing consumers across Alabama
205-879-2447
www.alabamaconsumer.com/
www.alabamaconsumer.com/conta... (to send us a message)
Our free weekly webinar is here -- my.demio.com/ref/ZHxa8NhYRNAp... -- Join us if you can!
"No representation is made that the quality of the legal services to be performed is greater than the quality of legal services performed by other lawyers."
Today at my hearing with LVNV, I argued there was no purchase agreement and therefore I and the court don't know what they purchased or what they can do with it. The lawyer asked me..."so you don't think when you have a bill of sale that means you now own what you bought and you're telling me I can't do whatever I want with it?". I said correct, I can buy property but the purchase agreement may say I can't have a hog farm or a junk yard. She was peeved by my answer and kept repeating it. I kept explaining just because you buy something doesn't mean you are at free will to do whatever you want with it. She gave up after that. I won. She seemed like she was flabbergasted that the judge sided with me. I owe that win to you John.
was it really your debt though? i really do have debt, but they are trying to sue me. they never sent me a validation letter just a summons to appear. i have to represent myself because i'm too poor for a attorney. I also have cripling anxiety when it comes to being on the spot so i'm fucked.
I appreciate you sharing this story. I have a trail date set for January. John's videos have help build my confidence and made me dig deeper into this situation. Thank you both
@@KingShaka_daGreat you can do it. Best of luck to you.
Did you win without conducting discoveries? All you submitted to the court is your answer to the plaintiff's complaint?
@@augiekawase yes. I did not do discovery.
I used to go down to court hearings before Covid-19 just to watch the court system work. One of the things that I came away with when watching DUI and Credit card default was that some judges did not have the time for you if you did not have a lawyer repersenting you. Many DUI's were dropped because you had a lawyer, many of credit card collections were dropped. Very few without a lawyer and most of them did not last more than 5 minutes without a lawyer. Nothing like seeing lawyers having a good time like freinds, and then get before the Judge and go face to face against each other like they dislike each other 5 minutes later.
Thats helpful so maybe I can go to court government website and search for midland credit and look at the court cases and see who won..what lawyers and what judges. Or maybe not
that sucks for those of us who cant afford one
Sounds like some form of discrimination to me but what do I know
Exactly. Sometimes i feel like if you don't have an attorney present it becomes a club and neither party respects you. I certainly can't win a battle of legal knowledge with an attorney
midland tried to sue me. They went so far and some how listed my license plate numbers on my cars on court documents. I was able to get my case dismissed and they agreed to pay court cost my attorney ended up Sueing them and i won a settlement out of court. It pays to know the law and keep your cool
Deets.. how much can you get without proving damages...
Midland is suing me I have gotten all kinds letters from lawyers. What do we do?
In all cases, answer the lawsuits how your state, or municipality wants you to do so...and show up for the hearings. Also remember this...it ain't your job to prove you don't owe anything. It's their job to prove that they own the actual debt, and you owe what they allege.
Yup you don't want default judgements against you and alot of times they don't show up
@@JesseT951 why would they pay to file just to not show up?
@naia-gl2nf they hoping that you don't show up in the first place
@@JesseT951 If we file an answer, doesn't that kinda prove we will? I am hoping to god that they default somehow. They had me served a summons but failed to send me a debt notice letter before hand which I thought they were required to do. So, I'm sending a debt verification request letter along with a copy of the answer via certified mail. i have no problem paying it if they accept my small payments. it is my debt after all, but i dont like that they are being crooked about it.
@naia-gl2nf they filed in masses. Remember? They can't go all of them. So they'll pick the easiest, which is the one that don't answer the summon, and they get judgements.
You are such a great help! My nerves are all over the place, but I feel confident.
Thank you -- its scary going into court and no guarantees but hopefully your research helped you to do the best you could do.
John Watts
I went to nj court armed with your sage advice. I had already paid a few small payments to Midland, (old debt), and had to file small amount of paper work throughout the process to get there. When I got before the judge, she insisted both parties must mediate. The mediator looked at my file, after listening to our sides of the story. He stated from his experience that because I made a few payments to Midland, the judge would not acknowledge the premise/my objection on the grounds of the purchase agreement. My cc bill was 4700 and I shaved 2000 off the bill negotiating so that was a win, but I wanted to say thank you very much for sharing your knowledge.
I've heard the same, "beating a debt collection trial is possible when you HAVE NOT MADE A PAYMENT to the collector' and more difficult when you have made a payment but not impossible.
Thank you John for this great video!
You are very welcome!! Glad it was helpful and have a great day!
John Watts
I had a case opened against me due to a debt. Little did I know that this account was opened with the original creditor to begin with, as soon as I was served I disputed it with the credit bureaus due to identity theft and froze my credit. Recently the debt buyer requested to summary judgement while the only thing they provided was a bill of sale and 4 months of statements,as I am in the process of disputing this fraudulent account. It baffles me that with so little of information they can attempt to bind that debt to you. The only thing I am guilty of is not checking my credit report as often as I should. However that's not a legal matter. 800$ they want from me from an account that was never even mine. So disheartening that there are ppl out there that think this is ok. God bless the work you do to protect consumers!!! And if you are in this situation, FIGHT BACK!!! don't let them think this is ok. Your fight can be another one's victory.
I hear you there. I am being sued right now and have a court date. My biggest problem is I have dementia and cannot recall what I had for breakfast! I only know about my lawsuit because I keep it close so I can remember what is going on and so I do not miss my hearing date and time. I have high blood pressure, and this shoot mine up there. The worst thing is I do not like the idea that I owe money to anyone and have not paid my debt's. but I just cannot remember. My biggest worries are when I do go to court, they ask me questions and I cannot defend myself and maybe say something improper? my debt is a credit card. I cannot even remember what John (the nice man making these videos) says. Ignorance is no excuse. I hope you are able to get your problems solved! Have a nice day!
I would talk to a lawyer. From my understanding you would almost be mentally incompetent & I know there’s something you can do in that defense ! I hope the best of luck for you also.
@@romanstarrtattooshow did your case go?? Well, i hope
I love the enthusiasm you have for what you do. :)
Thanks! I have more fun helping consumers than I would helping the other side. ;)
@@johngwattswhat happens if you do lose, once in court? Do you pay on the spot or payments? Can you tell them only way you pay is with cashier check, so they don't heist your bank account??
Thank you for this helpful information. No matter what, it is good to know about a potential applicable argument to pose if it fits with a civil 3rd party debt collection lawsuit! Really like your comparisons too!
Your HOA analogy helped me understand. Great video.
Thanks for your comment and glad it helped!
John Watts
Thank you this helps people to start at the victorious finish line 💯
Welcome!
Once again thank you
You are very welcome -- hope it helps!
John
thank you so much john. going to court on my own next week. hopefully my research along with this outstanding argument will give me the dub.
Sounds good -- hope you have great success. If you do, remember to check your credit reports in about 30 days and see if the debt buyer is ON or OFF your reports.
If you lose, remember you may have a right to appeal. If you are in AL for example, and sued in Small Claims or District Court, you normally have 14 days to appeal to Circuit Court. You can ask the court to let you know your options if you get a bad ruling.
Best wishes
John Watts
I'm going to court this Friday 4/19/24 for trial against midland credit management, I'm been watching all your videos Mr Watts. I'm gonna fight
@@johngwatts i won my case. they tried only providing like 2 or 3 billing statements and they claimed credit card statute of limitations was 6 years i told them that was for breach of contract. they insisted that bc i signed something that makes it a contract. i said ok, well let's see this contract. case closed in less than 10 minutes unbelievable
@@1andonly_j-rodawesome!!🎉🎉
I tried using this tactic in my last case and I lost. The judge told me that the purchase agreement was between Midland and seller and I nor him was allowed to see it. So far I am 1 for 1. I have a case Nov 2 but in the exhibits LVNV has a bill of sale that list resurgent as the buyer and LVNV is not listed. I know one owns the other but that’s not why the bill of sale states. I just hope the judge is in a good mood he seems to go back and forth. But your videos helped me win my first case. Thank you
Thank you very much John!!!
Very welcome!!
John
Thank you. That purchase agreement and details hold key. They don't want yhe judge to see something...
Court date for midland is on the 5th of next month. If nothing else the judge will at least see that I’m attempting to protect myself from bad actors even if they can produce evidence & I lose. Thanks for the info, very helpful, much appreciated!
Hey, give it your all! I had my hearing rescheduled because when I brought up the arbitration clause the judge said she needed time to review it since I guess they don't deal with many people asking for it, but I have my next hearing on the 4th of may and im just hoping it goes in my favor! If I'm denied I will follow through with the purchase agreement argument from there but I won't give up!
Goodluck to you!
@@DavidM1692 how did your case go?
How did it go?
@@DavidM1692 what ended up happening?
Update?
I love your videos John. I asked a question but I don’t know if you got it anyways, I tried some dispute hacks that RUclipsrs put on RUclips on collections. It seems like those hacks never work. What’s the best way to approach debt collector or collection agency?
THIS VIDEO IS THE TRUTH!!!!!!
Thank you 😉
Welcome!
Owing a debt vs Owning the debt. Thank you.📌
Welcome! We first wrote about this in about 2008 and it has helped us to help thousands of people sued by debt buyers (alleged debt buyers!). Hope it is helpful to you also!
John Watts
This guy is a genius
Nope -- just occasionally see a few patterns. :). But thanks for the kind words!
John
Always show up, always make them prove it, if you don't show up and fight it, you lose, if you fight and lose you are not a whole lot worse off than if you default.
Great comment -- I wanted to highlight this as what you say is 100% true -- ruclips.net/video/r3nDoliuuJ4/видео.html
Thanks!
John
Does not under FDCPA someone have to sign under penalty of perjury attest that the loan exists??
I'm in the process of answering interrogatories one of the question is " do you have documents to prove you don't owe the original creditor. " It's crazy how they frame the questions.
A bill of sale doesn't prove ownership, a title does. I can buy a car and get a bill of sale. Then when I try to register said car, I find out it's stolen. Therefore, a bill of sale does not prove ownership.
Preach🙌🏾
After listening to this, I see that my Bill of sale doesn't even say it purchased it from Comenity bank, instead it says it purchased it from another of its own parent companies.
I did a video on this -- I think will be released tomorrow. Key is what you are doing -- trace through ALL the supposed purchases and see if you have bill of sale AND purchase agreement for each transaction....
Great comment by the way!
John
What about a non judicial foreclosure threat, what can I do about it?
I love your videos. I have a question for you. Can you do a video about credit hacks or dispute hacks? I tried a lot of dispute hacks the RUclipsrs put on RUclips but it seems like it doesn’t work. I mean what’s the best way to get rid of one collection? And how to approach a collection or debt collector?
Hi john i live in south africa was on the phone with collection agency threaten to sue me over the phone for unpaid debt but could not pay it as i was laid off from work since march 2021 my thing is do they actually go through with what they say or is it just a scare tactic to get me to pay.
Do I wait to get to court before requesting these, or do I request in writing prior to court? Thank you!
Great question - some ask BEFORE trial for it. We wait and point out it is missing at trial. Different strategies and some of this is knowing your judge and what he or she likes etc. Best wishes
John Watts
I had a account with with Sears which was a Sears master card. I was making payment on My account I always went in the store & payed at the register & always got a receipt. The next thing I know I got a letter from midland credit . I was like in the heack is going on . I have sent them copies of the receipt & copies of the cashiers checks . I never heard nothing back . I’m in the state of Ohio . & the statute of limitations in the state of Ohio is 6 years on any type of debt . I do have a lawyer on My side just in case they try something dirty . I did hold on to My records. . Sears as we all know is out of business. I want to say I think I opened up that Sears account around 2015
Great job keeping records -- definitely share all of that with your OH lawyer and best wishes....
Do keep in mind the statute of limitations (time to sue) normally runs from when you last missed a payment not the open date of the account.
Good luck!
John Watts
@@johngwatts good to know
Does all of this have to come from discovery though? I'm not an attorney and getting ready to send a response. Are they going to just bring this stuff to court and lrt me look at it? Am i going to ask the plaintiff attorney for this while I'm in front of the judge?
During Covid I defaulted on a Costco Citi card. Didn’t want to. Didn’t mean to, and would have taken care of it. It is completely conceivable that Costco required of Citi that they wouldn’t sue (or let a buyer sue) on a Costco credit card.
I’m listening
Thanks! Make sure you check out the law of your state... Best wishes
John Watts
Here is one for you.. a company that rhymes with cerchants mredit corp had an assignment that is to be used with purchases OR assignment of debt. Horribly funny when you make a motion for dismissal with predjudice due to not having a debt collectors license for the one part they forgot to cross out and not following federal law for the owned debt they forgot to cross out. It cant be both, but it can be neither.
I got sued twice during c19. No money, no transportation, no hope. I didn't know any of this, now I have 2 judgement liens against my property. Wish I'd had access to this information years ago
Aw, I'm sorry that happened. I first heard of this from a friend months back who said you can write letters to them explaining you don't owe them the debt in TBE form they claim. In some cases they don't even fight back hard and it can be done through mail. Of course, it's still not going to fix the credit score issue but still.
How do you defend account stated. Also, I can't find statute of limitations in my state (Utah) for account stated. Written contract - 6 years, oral - 4, nothing about account stated. Also, do I understand correctly that in account stated claim Written contract is a statement itself?
Hey John, is Alabama a good state to live in? How are the consumer protection and eviction laws there? Is there a state in the union that provides the most protections for consumers and renters to your knowledge?
I like AL but not much in way of consumer protection. Florida has better consumer protection laws in my view....
@@johngwatts thanks for the response, great videos BTW. is that out of the whole country? Or just the south East? With so many Florida men running around I a very surprised FL doesn’t fleece everyone.
I asked the attorney representing the plaintiff for the purchaee agreement and he sent an email stating he does not have to provide me with proof. I asled for contract. He said he doesn't have to provide that as well. How can i prove they can sue me for the debt?? I feel like Im being rail roaded.
🔥landed🔥
What if I'm being sued and the lawyer says the original debtor, but when i call the original debtor they say the account has been transferred? Who is actually taking me to court? Can the original debtor be the one suing me if the account has been tranfered to trak America? If the account is transferred and orginal debtor isnt managing that account anymore, can their name be used as the entitiy suing me?
Great questions -- hope this video helps! ruclips.net/video/VKAZi5SuwDk/видео.html
Hi John, I had a question regarding original contracts. If a debt buyer sues you and provides an electronically signed copy of the original contract that contains an encrypted signature must they prove they have records of that encrypted signature from the original creditor? Also, if the terms and conditions of that contract state that the original creditor has not committed to making the loan and the loan will only be made once funds have been transferred from their bank to the bank on file, is it a good defense to request documents showing proof of transfer from the original creditor assuming you deny you owe the original debt?
Hello, I was wondering if you had found an answer to your question about the proof of the encrypted signature.
When you ask for purchase agreement and when they send it how do you know if it is real or not because it looks like they type it themselves
What purchase agreement are you referring to? I recently disputed collections on my credit report with the bureaus asking the debt buyers to validate the debt. Then the debt buyer sent me a copy of a contract with my name and information printed on it. The key is to send a letter back to the collection agency and say “I do not owe your company this debt.” Because the contract they sent you is not a contract between you and the debt buyer. And never admit the debt is yours just because they produced some contract with your name on it.
🔥🔥🔥
Hi John, please can you provide me with an attorney in Michigan? I truly appreciate your time.
Where would I find what my state says about proof?
I am in Massachusetts and getting sued by LVNV. I already did a hearing over the phone due to Covid. I asked them to prove they own my debt. They sent me a bill of sale. It didn't have my name or acct. number on it. I googled things and found my State supreme court said the Bill of Sale has to have your name and or credit card acct number or partial number. The bill of sale they sent me didn't have either. I am going to court in person on May 5th to challenge them. I wonder if Judges are friends with the lawyers. I can't wait to see how the judge rules.
Is this kind of transition considered a financial agreement that is actually a promissory note?
The forward flow purchase agreement is simply a contract between the original creditor and the debt buyer who supposedly purchased a pool of charged off accounts for pennies on the dollar from the original creditor.
@@audreymay9378 oh I’m familiar with forward flow. I have a few JDB suing me now. It’s a scam but you have to be willing to fight and make them prove they actually purchased the note and their are UCC codes that regulates such things. Thanks for responding to my post.
If the promissory note can be bought and sold, it turns into a security .. requiring a brokers license.
Is the bill of sale not enough to prove ownership (or standing) because it is one page of a multi page document called the purchase agreement?
In most states there is the "completeness doctrine" that says if you introduce into evidence a part of a document, the other side can demand the entire document be introduced. The bill of sale is a part of the multipage purchase agreement as you pointed out so that's part of why the whole thing needs to come in. Another reason is the bill of sale will reference the rights and disclaimers etc of the whole purchase agreement so we need that to know what was sold and what was promised.
John Watts
If webbank charge off on credit report can Midland sue somebody
I'm being sued by lvnv now and I see in the paper work that it went through 3 different hands before it got to them
Yes this is very typical especially if from Credit One Bank. You might want to look at this video on an LVNV affidavit which be similar to what you have -- ruclips.net/video/REHogT8-z8M/видео.html
Best wishes
John
@@johngwatts it is definitely from credit one bank
Is it possible that the judge would make you pay the purchase price on the bill of sale?
I've never seen that. In court it is not relevant what was paid just that it was bought (has to be proven in my view). And these companies never want the purchase agreement in evidence and certainly not with how little they actually pay for the debts...
Hi John
Does the debt buyer not own the debt because they don’t want to disclose the full purchase agreement?
That's a great question. Most courts hold that the failure to produce the full purchase agreement does not affect ownership unless it causes the debt buyer to lose at trial. In other words, in a debt collection trial.
@@johngwatts
I was able to get my debt lawsuits dismissed without having to go to trail.
@@audreymay9378 how?
I do not understand? if they do not produce the purchase agreement then does that meant they loose?@@johngwatts
There’s not collection laws in my state
what do you do if you hear the judge is horrible?
nice
Thanks!
I am being sued by lvnv by a local law firm. Due to covid we did a a telephone court hearing. I asked them how they can prove they own my debt. The lawyer on a recordedr line said they have a Bill of sale. I asked to see it. The lawyer gave me the name and number to call from his law office to have it sent to me. The majestrate continued the case to May 5th. The law form emailed me a copy of the Bill of sale. It doesn't have my name or acct number on it. I am in Massachusetts. I came across online a Supreme court ruling on fair debt collecting in Massachusetts. It says the Bill of sale has to have my name or Credit card number or partial number. It didn't have either. It was very generic. I am going to challenge them in court. I am nervous but I think I should win. That is unless the judge is dirty and is friends with the lawyers. What do you think??
You definitely want to know the law in YOUR state and then make sure you have that for the judge. Never assume the judge knows everything -- we always want to back up everything we say. Judges want to get the right decision and they look to authority from the state supreme court etc.
Best wishes
John
How did your case turn out?
Ask how many times the lawyer has went up against a debtor with this judge. Get the win loss statistics. Prove bias.
I went to court today and the attorney for midland had the bill of sale for the chain of custody of the other two but couldn’t produce the purchase agreement. He also came with some statements of what I used the card on but some looked wrong. Who do you think the judge would favor more?
I would hope the judge would say without the purchase agreement Midland can't show it owns the debt. That's the argument we have made successfully for many years. Let me know what the result ends up in your case thanks!
John
@@johngwatts I got the results of the case and somehow midland won. Although he couldn’t produce the purchase agreement.
Toby Vaughn did you admit that you owed the debt when asked?
What if they “prove it” though?
Can you request the purchase agreement in discovery ?
I did both times. One of the debt collectors did not respond to my discovery at all and decided to dismiss their case and the other one responded but refused to produce the purchase agreement and ended up dismissing their case as well. I got sued in Texas.
@@audreymay9378 thanks. I’m in Texas as well.
@@popsxbox
let me know if you ever need any help defending yourself against them scammers! 🤠
@@audreymay9378 thanks. I’m thinking we may not have a way for remedy once our dollar collapses. 🤷♂️ not looking good.
@@popsxbox
Principles of dealing with the changing world order by Ray Dalio:
ruclips.net/video/xguam0TKMw8/видео.html
If you prove they don't own it and succeed and getting those collectors to stop collecting, what about the bank you originally got in debt with? Cam the bank itself sue yo, even if they sold the receipt to the debt collector already?
Have you filed suits against National Credit Adjusters?
Yes -- NCA out of Kansas. Been a few years as I recall but we have sued them before.
John
In my case, i asked for the purchase agreement.. they said it was a secret. I asked how much the plaintiff paid for the debt.. no no.. thats secret. But here is the assignment showing they can sue on original debt holders behalf. But.. you bought the debt, yes? No. Ok, what was the original interest rate? Crickets.
7:57 b.s. no lawyer ever said this in court. i want a transcript. i'll use your words...prove it.
Why does one debt buyer sell the account to another debt buyer, etc. Are they playing some sort of shell game?
But doesn't matter how much they actually paid for it? For example a debt of $500 they purchased for just $50 bucks?
Today I went against LVNV and lost because I didn't keep paying to respond to their letters. I thought I'll just let them know at court. Wrong! Even though it says "Your ordered to come and show cause" when you get there if you haven't played in their Babylonian game of paying and paying to prove you don't owe these bottom feeders money, you will lose when you show up. 😒
if the debt buyer bought the debt the debt was paid.. it is over.
On my wife’s they redacted the percentage they paid for it. How convenient.
lol at "claim"
Can they have your SS number.