As an independent repair shop I am glad you give pricing on parts and labor to repair these nightmares. Looks like Ford will be shutting down car production soon.
My 3.7’s pump failed around 30k..thank god the factory warranty covered it. Got the updated pump design installed with new chains and tensioners. I’ll be having them changed again at 100k just to be safe
I love my 3.0l Duratec. Water pump is camshaft driven and easy to access. Alternator sucks and oil leaks are a state of being but she's always been reliable.
WILEY Motorsports S.P. I really feel it was one of Fords better engines. They love to rev and they handle abuse very well. My version is basic with no VVT so not much to go wrong. Oil leaks do suck though. I really wish it had the twin turbos and GDI.
I have a 2011 F150 3.7 engine in it it has 210,000 miles on it I got it when it had 108,000 miles on it I have for a 8000 pound trailer from North Carolina to Birmingham Alabama with the no problems with it I have drove to Detroit Michigan from Alabama 10 times pulling a trailer camper trailer with no problems gas and go change oil’s every 10,000 miles only use Castrol synthetic oil and Lucas oil stabilizer synthetic 1 quart Still driving it to this day
It’s a close call, but having the unique perspective of having to deal with rebuilding the A14 engine in my late father’s 1980 Datsun 210 wagon (google: #SaveMWBDatsun)... ...I’d honestly rather deal with modern engines with an ECM + individual system modules that tune themselves in milliseconds than deal with ANY type of carburetor
Spillow thank goodness was ready to trade in my 2013 3.7 mustang after watching this ...hopefully my 3.7 does not have any big problems ..it has been good so far
Spillow What about the explorer? I've heard in the explorer as well as other vehicles, it's very common to see these engines with 200-300k and no issues and that this issue is very rare but still want to check.
Besides the dual seal on the housing going bad, the main cause for these water pumps to leak is that there is too much chain tension on the actual water pump causing the shaft bearings and seal to prematurely fail. You can easily catch these problem by doing regular oil changes looking for water in the oil or if the water pump shaft all of a sudden gets worse. You'll lose power instantly and will definitely know something has happened with the check engine light coming on catch it early and don't let the shop tell you that your head gasket blew out.
The acute angle at which the chain arrives at & departs from the water pump causes a massive upwards strain on the pulley bearings. The problems with the engine in this video started with a Check Engine Light that came on while the owners (wife’s parents) were down south in Arkansas. When it arrived at my home-based shop (formerly located in Hartford Wisconsin from Sept.2015-Jan-2022), I found it in this condition with an active camshaft-crankshaft correlation code stored in the PCM + coolant on the dipstick + oil in the coolant reservoir
@@WILEYsUnrequestedRamblings same issue my wife had. She said it had cut off on her twice that day then tried to over heat. I pulled the same codes. Oil was milky. Drove to a local shop. They told me it was the head gasket. Car showed no sign of a blow head gasket though.it only had 60k on it. They gave me an $4500 estimate to just swap the engine. I told them I was just going to break it down at home just to see if it’s the pump which it was. After doing the job myself with just the basic tools and a 3 ton jack. There will be no next time, she just going to get a new car 😂. I see why this job calls for $1200-$1500 just to change the pump. But I saved a whole lot doing it my self though.
@@Bigsteve123 I hope you flushed the everliving hell out of both the entire oil system + coolant system. I usually drop the oil pan to either send it to the machine shop for cleaning or replace it. Any coolant sludge deposits left inside the oil pan can get loose and sent through the system to severely damage the VVT system, the camshaft bearings, the rod bearings, or the main bearings.
@@WILEYsUnrequestedRamblings yes yes I did, I cleaned the pan up real good. The engine wasn’t that bad. But I did change the oils after running for about 30 minutes. Cooling system I just stuck a water hose in the reservoir and drained the radiator all at the same time of running the engine for a while lol. All of this was a year ago. It’s been running good. Went ahead change spark plugs and valve cover gaskets while I was in it.
@@Bigsteve123 besides replacing the coolant reservoir (which I usually do), I’m not sure you could’ve done that job any better than what you described. Bravo Sir.
You're speaking of the FWD (latitudinal mounted) 3.7L (and 3.5L). Is water pump failure less painful for the (longitudinal mounted) 3.7L's in the Mustang? (ie: coolant weeping on the floor and then technician access in replacing the pump)? We lost the water pump in our 2012 Mustang at
I have 3.7 v6 in Lincoln mkT stretch limousine. The engine is under 10+ hours a day running in full load in the heavy car. So far the car is 140k miles and the other fee car in the fleet are well over 200k. No issies at all so far. Will have your advices in mind and if for some reason i see coolant sensor light will shit car immediately before more coolant runs into the oil. This bulletproof engine looks like it has a ticking dissadter inside. They should have done this pump on the outside.
I have a 2008 ford Taurus 3.5 with 247,000 mlies on it i bought it at 58,000 miles.. Never did a water pump or timing Just used best oil and coolant.... After seeing this i might have too now
My 2008 CX-9 Duratec 37 103k miles, fwd, Mobil 1 full synthetic and filter every 5k, no problems, no coolant loss. New plugs and engine runs like new, has been the perfect car.
Damnittt, same engine in my 08 Lincoln MKX and I’m just under 100k mi just bought her couple a months ago! Certainly good info tho thanks for posting...
Just watch your coolant level and for any kind of squealing. also because it is the Suv it is cheaper to replace because in a fusion you have to drop the motor.
Thanks for the video! I learned a lot. My friend's coworker has this car and the dealer changed her water pump recently. Now the dealer said something about "valves" and they want $7,000 to fix the car. I'm going to take a look at it for shits and giggles. It's a 2010 Lincoln MKX
@@WILEYsUnrequestedRamblings I think that is what happened. Water pump done at 121k miles so I assume the chain must have been loose. Your video shows that it would have been smart to also change out the chain, guides, oil pump, cam phasers, vvt solenoids, & tensioner at least. But that wasn't done at all. So, when I go to look at this car I want to see if it's salvageable. If it isn't then well I guess it is junk 🤷♂️
@@cupompa yeah, the chains are ALWAYS stretched loose Basically, the shop that did the work did a shit job, and they should be redoing it correctly for free. If they don’t, it may be time for small claims court &/or contacting the BBB
@@cupompa ...your friend's coworker needs to see if their is a Class Action lawsuit against Ford, for such a shitty job being done on their vehicle. IF they didn't follow Ford recommended repair procedures, didn't properly inform the owner of the problems, then they deliberately Sabotaged their vehicle. That's some BS service, if you ask me.
Thanks for the excellent film detailing the problems with the 3.5 liter motor; good to hear from an honest mechanic. My problem being I have Toyotas, and I want to buy a good sized American car for long distance travel. I wanted a northstar V8, and a Chrysler Town and Country, or a Ford Flex; they all have bad engines. Question is there a US brand car that is worth buying, presently my Toyotas have 180 to 200 thousand miles. Thanks again for the report.
No, there is not a US car worth buying. I wish there were, but the unfortunate reality is that Mazda (except #FuckFord products), Honda (except the Odyssey), and especially Toyota build the most reliable vehicles on the planet. There’s a reason why every time you see trucks in the background of some video from South America, Africa, the Middle East, or Southeast Asia… they are nearly always Toyota. When it absolutely positively must perform correctly every time, you get a Toyota.
@@waltchan except for the ones that have cylinder deactivation. They royally screwed up their only good engine when they put that stupid garbage on there.
I have a 2011 F150 3.7L and I've noticed that I have a small coolant leak. Thankfully the water pump is external but I'm assuming this very well could be the problem. What's the easiest way to verify? Is the best fix to simply replace the water pump itself?
Engineers and bean counters don’t care about longevity or serviceability. I have a Mazda CX-9 that just had the same problem. Worst V6 engine design ever.
I assume the engine is being teplaced because of bearing issued resulting from coolant in the engine oil. But when i was wrenching i would frequently see a bit of coolant drain out during oil changes when changing intake or head gaskets. That never killed the late 1990s Chevy engines. Why is a bit of coolant trashing these Ford engines?
I feel it's important to note that versions of the 3.7 are found in f150 XL trucks, and base mustangs.. dunno if the timing system is different, but it's important to note it..
There are 2 issues with this engine: • timing chain stretch (requiring moderately expensive replacement at approx 60,000-150,000mi intervals) • failed water pump (requiring EXTREMELY-expensive requiring replacement of pump + chains + several other parts at approx 60,000-150,000mi intervals. Sometimes, engine is so damaged by water pump failure that engine replacement is only economically feasible option) The FWD & AWD (transverse-mounted) versions of this engine suffer from BOTH problems. The RWD/4WD (longitudinal-mounted) versions of this engine suffer from ONLY the timing chain stretch issue. This is because on these engines, the water pump was relocated to a position outside of the timing cover.
@@WILEYsUnrequestedRamblings chain stretch is common in almost all OHC designs simply because the amount of chain that is used. That is borderline forgivable, as, the OHC designs of today make decent power and have acceptable fuel economy. That said, a better chain and tensioner should exist
@@PureCountryof91 This engine should utilize 2 shorter chains instead of 1 long chain. This is a common feature in many other engines. This engine requires Tchain replacement at MUCH more frequent intervals than comparable V6 engines from competitors (especially the Japanese). The turbo versions wear them down even faster.
I hope you see this comment. I have had this same issue and had an engine replacement. I have to old engine because it only had 80K on it. My dad and I want to rebuild the engine however, my mechanic told me that there are no timing marks on this engine. So how do you time the engine with no timing marks?
Some do all chains and tensioners as well. Might as well as long as youre in there i suppose. I saw a short video for a specialty tool to set the timing - no not a timing light - y'a know with the OH cams.
@@MrDavidknigge You can do it all while you’re there. It really depends on what you find when you get in there. Well serviced engines show little chain, guide, and tensioner wear.
Should also put a Melling oil pump in at the same time since they have a higher psi unit. Also recommend changing the coolant every 50,000 miles or 5 years.
In my opinion, changing of the coolant every 50k is unnecessary for this engine, as the water pump tends to go bad every 75k - 150k (around 60k for police cruisers that idle a lot more than regular cars with these engines), so the water pump should be replaced as a preventive measure at 75k intervals. Unfortunately, this is a 10.5 hour job with the engine still in the car (most techs know better than to try it this way because it’s FAAAR easier to deal with when the engine & subframe are dropped), which makes this job prohibitively expensive for most people, which is why I recommend that people do not buy vehicles with this engine (or any vehicles from #FuckFord, #FuckGM, or #FuckChrysler because union-made vehicles < Toyota, Honda, Mazda vehicles).
@@WILEYsUnrequestedRamblings The Ford 3.5L from 2007 was designed by Mazda. This also applies to the 1.5, 2.0, 2.3, 2.7, 3.3, and 3.7L engines. That is according to a Ford engineer that I know that wants to remain nameless. That is a very well engineered Japanese engine. Might be why the water pumps go out?
@@fogit4668 I have heard this line of bullshit from so many people that it’s extremely aggravating at this point. Anyone who has ever taken apart one of these engines knows that it was not designed by Mazda, because Mazda has not designed a V6 of their own since the mid-90s. The reason why this inaccurate information is so widespread is because the first vehicle that is engine premiered in was a CX-9 (which is a Mazda-badged version of a stretched Ford version of the Ford CD3 platform that was originally engineered by Mazda.) AND because Ford’s corporate management is rather embarrassed by this engine, so they regularly tell their techs that it’s Mazda’s fault. I know this because I have a friend who is a Ford master certified technician at a dealership in the Milwaukee area. He heard this exact same information when he was down in Chicago for a week of training several years ago. I had to correct his information, as I am now correcting information. The 3.5 & 3.7 engines were fully designed & engineered by Ford, and are known as the Cyclone engine. Is the engine is produced at Ford’s Lima Engine facility in Lima, OH. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Cyclone_engine As far as the 4 bangers that Ford makes, all of those are Mazda designed engines that Ford got the IP rights to before they sold off the rest of their Mazda stock in 2008/2009. At the time that this occurred, Mazda made sure that Ford did not get access to their Sky-Activ technology, but only the rights to the L-Series engine. Ford has been making various derivatives of this engine ever since because Ford has not been able to produce a 4cylinder engine of their own for decades. This was around the same time that Mazda stopped making V6 engines, because there was no need to do so any longer because any V6 engine that they needed for their vehicles they could get from Ford, just as Ford was getting all of their 4-bangers from Mazda. If you have ever taken apart one of these engines (like I have twice now) + any other engine from Mazda + any other engine from Ford, you would know that The Americans & the Japanese use different sizes for all of their bolts. I’ve never understood why this is the case, but you see it in every single vehicle that you take apart from each of the manufacturers from those countries. Japanese: 8mm, 10mm, 12mm, 14mm, 17mm, 21mm, 24mm Americans: 8mm, 10mm, 13mm, 15mm, 18mm, 19mm, 22mm This pattern is the same across every single engine, every single transmission, every single suspension piece, every lug nut, every seat belt bolt, and every other fastener on every vehicle from those 2 countries. I own 2 Mazdas (07 Mazda3 2.0, 10 Mazda5 2.3). There are 12mm & 14mm all over both cars. There are NO 13mm or 15mm bolts anywhere. I’ve worked on Mazda6’s (which used to be made at the Flat Rock MI plant that they used to share with Ford) that have the 3.0 Duratec engine. There are 13mm & 15mm bolts all over that engine, as well as on the rest of the car. The 3.5 & 3.7 have 13mm & 15mm all over that engine. No 12mm or 14mm anywhere. The same situation goes for when you work on a Ford Escape that has a Mazda four-cylinder in it. You see 12mm, 14mm, and 17mm bolts all of the engine, but nowhere else anywhere on that car. You see 13mm & 15mm all over the rest of the car, but nowhere on the engine or trans. This is how you can always easily tell where things actually originate.
@@WILEYsUnrequestedRamblings So the Ford engineers that I know don't know what engines they actually designed? Does this mean that a Mazda water pump would fit in a Ford 3.5L and would be a better pump? The bolt sizes might tell you where the engine was cast an assembled but it does not tell you where it was designed. My questions are all because I am trying to learn if there is a better part that can be put in when ever I have to make a part replacement.
@@fogit4668 I don’t understand. If you know the engineers responsible for this engine, then why are you asking me whether or not a Mazda pump will fit inside of this Ford-designed engine.
They have coolant fan problems too!!!! With no temperature gauge only a notification when your vehicle has already overheated it comes on. Thanks to youtubers there's a video shows you how to replace the coolant fan
Omg! You ain't never lied! I had my engine 3.5 replaced last year (2011 Taurus SEL) exact same problem mentioned in this video! To a T! Now, I noticed the fan is loud, only comes on when the A/C is on and soon as I turn the car off the fans are off?! This can't be right or is it?
I had this problem with my 2009 Lincoln 3.5L MKZ 58,000 Miles. Dealer wanted $2,160.00 to repair & I don't know If they were going to do the extra repair you're doing.
No out of warranty In years so I just got rid of It. It had low millage because I'm 6'2" tall and 250 Lbs - didn't have enough leg room and on a long drive I found the seats too narrow. So I bought a brand New 2016 Kia (No Turbo) Optima & the Kia has plenty of leg room and comfortable seats.
Great video! I have a 2013 Lincoln MKT 3.7 engine with 194891 miles. If I can change 1 timing component with water pump, what should that be? Tight on funds. Changing the water pump for prevention maintenance
WILEY Motorsports S.P. ended up about 7 grand. But I bought I brand new ford crate engine. Engine, all hoses, all sensors on the intake and exhaust were replaced. Radiator was refurbished. Had a bunch of stuff like that done since it was all pulled out anyway. Feels kind of dumb to spend that on a car that age, but everything else is like new.
WILEY Motorsports S.P. BTW, that KS for the good video. I showed it to my mechanic. He already knew the engine was a gonner, but hadn't gotten to the cause. He didn't know the water pump was the culprit. But sure thing, as the engine was pulled and they drained the remaining coolant, plastic chunks of the water pump's impeller came out with it.
I would rather have an electric water pump detached from the block than to have one inside the engine and being used on the timing system. Not saying electric pumps are good or cheap, but I have a hunch it would be easier to repair and not ruin the engine.
So is this still the same case with the 2018 3.7 Transit Van, which is RWD? Chatter on the Internet says that the 3.7 in the van, because it is mounted differently for the rear wheel drive set up, doesn’t have the same water pump issue… That may be the water pump is not in the same place? Is there any truth to that, or is this exactly the same engine weather is it a front wheel drive car or a rear wheel drive transit? I guess my question is, can this happen to any 3.7, no matter what vehicle it’s in no matter what Dr. set up it has?
My 2010 Lincoln MKX started losing coolant. I couldn't see it in the oil. I ran it another couple days and the motor stopped running. The water pump locked up and broke timing chain, bent every valve. Still waiting on all the parts for the heads to be reconditioned. Only 75k miles.
It's possible the hot oil burned off the lost coolant so you wouldn't necessarily see it in the oil. But the pump sprocket would wear out and allow the chain to slip anyway.
So what happened to the original engine did coolant get in the oil and burn up the bearings or what I don't understand why you just didn't put timing chain and water pump on the original engine
Obviously it will fail eventually regardless but didn't they beef up the timing system and water pump bearing in like 2013 to make this issue harder to happen?
they made design changes that extended the mileage timeframe of the water pump failures, so that they now fail slightly later than they used to, but that’s it. The design of that water pump + that location + + that much stress on the timing chain + the size & location of that opening directly into the oil pan (for coolant to spill into when the pump fails) is the problem Ford was very much aware of this, which is why the location & design of the water pump is different on all RWD/4WD models with this engine (3.5, 3.7). On those vehicles, the water pump is relocated to the OUTSIDE of the timing cover & turned by the serpentine belt. While this does not solve the extremely common issue of stretched timing chains, it does resolve the water pump bearing issue & the failed-water-pump-leaking-coolant-directly-into-the-oil-pan issue. This is why the F150 & the Mustang do not have this water pump problem. They still have stretched timing chains requiring expensive replacements every 60k-100k miles, but the engines do not self-destruct because of large quantities of coolant pouring down into the oil pan.
That statement is not factually accurate. They fixed the coolant-pissing-into-oil-pan issue on the RWD-based models by moving the water pump to the outside of the engine to be spun by the drive belt (instead of internally by the timing chain) Unfortunately, it did not fix either the stretched timing chain or the faulty VVT solenoid issues, so the longitudinally-mounted versions of this 3.5/3.7 engine still require replacement chains + tensioners around 100k-150k miles
When the 3.5/3.7 went to twin independent vct in 2011 I believe. I've done so many water pumps on these, and the updated ones with the double chain sprocket NEVER leak internally. Always put from behind the alternator.
JAGExecutiveServicesInc The answer is: yes & no - ALL of the 3.5 and 3.7 Cyclone (Ford’s internal name for them) engines suffer from stretched timing chain issues. On the EcoBoost versions, the stretching damage is accelerated by the stress of the turbo. As such, the answer to 1 part of your question (in regards to the timing chain stretching problems) is Yes. Every single one of these engines will require replacement of the 3 timing chains + 3 tensioners at some point prior to 150,000 miles. The EcoBoost versions tend to require new chains prior to 100,000 miles. The labor cost of timing chain replacement varies according to whether the vehicle is RWD or FWD/AWD... ...and this is the part that REALLY matters, as it will likely determine whether the original engine is repaired or replaced. On the FWD-based models (Edge, Flex, Taurus, Exploder, Lincoln MKZ, Lincoln MKZ, 07-15 Mazda CX9, 2012 Fusion Sport, 07-12 Mazda6) the water pump is INSIDE THE TIMING COVER, directly above a large rectangular opening to the oil pan. This allows coolant to leak directly into the oil supply, which mixes with the oil & produces the black sludge you see in the video. The oil pump then spreads that black sludge into all parts of the engine (including the rod bearings, main bearings, camshaft, lifters, VVT solenoids, timing chain tensioners, etc), which destroys the engine. On the RWD-based vehicles (Transit, F150, Mustang, etc) the water pump is OUTSIDE THE TIMING COVER. This eliminates all of the engine-destruction issues that plague the FWD engines, but not the timing chain stretching issue. The timing chains will still have to be replaced 1-3 times over the life of the vehicle, but the engine will not have to be replaced due to coolant sludge damage.
I have a 2008 Lincoln MKX AWD with 95k miles on the 3.5 Duratec engine. Is that the same engine design as you're showing? Is there a major quality difference between the 3.5l I have and the updated 3.5l with vvt? Also is there a timing chain replacement interval on my engine? How common is this issue? My warranty runs out in November and I'm debating trading in.
If you mentioned this in your video, I must have missed it. My question........Is there a way to make the water pump last longer or is the water pump issue completely random?
Another YT'er with 2 Edge's with 200,000 miles replaced the coolant every couple years to prevent it becoming acidic and damaging the rubber water to oil seals. He sawed a couple pumps in half to show that the root cause is the failure of the rubber seal. It then allows water into the ball and needle bearings which soon rust and flat spot and then the pump sprocket gets sloppy ....
As with any timing job on any engine, you physically rotate the engine multiple times by hand until all the marks line up again. I usually hand-rotate as many times as it takes for the marks on the engine + the marks on the chain to line up again at least twice. I always remove the spark plugs prior to doing any timing job, as it makes hand-rotation of the engine MUCH easier.
@@WILEYsUnrequestedRamblings that sounds like the safest way to play it. I keep hearing that you don’t need to line up the colored links on the chain to the marks on the engine just line up the marks on the phasers and crank in the right direction.
WILEY Motorsports S.P. yeah it was the water pump bearing that went bad and trashed the motor.. 6800 for brand new motor.. What a let down from ford.. I owned 4 5.0 mustangs over the years and those motors was great.. I use to beat on them at the track and I never had any major issues with them unless I pushed them too far and i expected then.
I have a 2015 Explorer and have 135,000 miles. And its leaking coolant ,from behind the alternator. Do I need the whole water pump replaced or just the gaskets ?
My 2010 fusion sport started to make a noise at 100k and i thought it was a belt. lucly i sow some coolant coming out of the weep hole (imposable to find) and has the pump changed before any issue $2800 In labor at a ford dealer but lucky i have my own mechanic that does better work for a lot better price.
It affects all FWD and AWD vehicles equipped with either the 3.3L, the 3.5L, or the 3.7L version of the Cyclone engine 3.3L: • 2020 Ford Explorer Hybrid 3.5L N/A & 3.5L EcoBoost (turbo): • 2007⁺ Ford Edge • 2007⁺ Lincoln MKX • 2007⁺ Lincoln MKZ • 2008⁺ Ford Taurus • 2008⁺ Ford Taurus X • 2008⁺ Mercury Sable • 2009⁺ Ford Flex • 2010-2019 Ford Taurus SHO • 2010⁺ Lincoln MKS • 2010-2012 Ford Fusion (Sport model ONLY) • 2010⁺ Lincoln MKT • 2011-2019 Ford Explorer • 2013⁺ Ford Police Interceptor • 2014⁺ Ford Police Interceptor Utility 3.7L N/A • 2007-2016 Mazda CX-9 • 2009⁺ Lincoln MKS • 2009-2013 Mazda 6 • 2010⁺ Lincoln MKT • 2011-2014 Ford Edge • 2013-2016 Lincoln MKZ • 2013⁺ Ford Police Interceptor • 2013⁺ Ford Police Interceptor Utility • 2017⁺ Lincoln Continental en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Cyclone_engine
I’m not sure why a person would want to do that, because the end result would be the same. The 3.5L and 3.7L have the exact same problems with timing chain stretch. The FWD/AWD versions have the additional problem of water pumps leaking into the oil pan. I’m not sure why a person would think that’s a good idea to replace one with the other when they both have the exact same problems.
There is no space in the engine compartment of the FWD vehicles to make that modification, which is why Ford placed it inside the timing cover on the FWD models in the first place
The 3.0 Duratec engine that preceded this one does not have this issue, because the water pump is mounted externally on the driver side of the engine, in the front of the engine bay. It runs off a small ribbed belt that is linked to a tensioner + a pulley that is pressed onto the end of the Bank 2 exhaust camshaft (which is longer than the other camshafts, so it sticks out of the end of the cylinder head). The labor time for replacing the water pump in the 3.0 Duratec is a little over an hour or so. It is extremely easy to do. It is extremely frustrating that this design did not carry forward into the next generation of V6 engines from Ford, and I have been trying to figure out their reasoning for this for many years. The only thing I’ve been able to come up with that ended up taking that space in the next generation engine is 1 extra anti-noise baffle for the hose between the throttle body and the air filter box. #FuckFord’s decision to move that water pump to the inside of the timing cover for the FWD versions of the 3.5 & 3.7 engines is one of the most idiotically unnecessary & costly (for warranty repair reasons) decisions I have ever seen out of this automaker.
At the time (2017 or 2018), I got it from LKQ in Hustisford WI. That was at my discounted cost for an entire engine assembly w/ less than 100k. Before I put it in, I replaced all the chains + tensioners + the WP as a preventive measure. Parts from the dealer + RockAuto were around $800ish at my discounted cost.
@@WILEYsUnrequestedRamblings thanks. dealer qoute me 8K to replace the engine..lol. My engine already has 197k miles on it. Do you think its worth replacing water pump and all the knick knacks in the engine area? vs replacing engine which will eventually fail and back to square one. My only other option is run this car off the cliff or pray for a slippery rainy day to end its life. My 2014 cx-9 is good car. roomy, the engine is good also. Really bad design. I wonder why didnt Ford do a similar think like HOnda to closed that oil pan opening. Couldn't ford do a recall to install new redesign oil pan.?
@@maolo76 Honda closed that opening on certain engines bc Honda used a timing belt instead of chains for a lot longer than other OEMs Once they went to chains, they also had to have an opening to the oil pan for the oil to drain into. Honda was smart enough to not place the water pump within the timing cover, as was every other OEM who uses chains. Stupid designs like this are caused by the fact that #FuckFord’s (like #FuckChrysler + #FuckGM) workforce is unionized. When a customer will only pay __x__ for a product, and labor costs more than competitors… …math dictates that something has to give, and the thing that gives with the American OEMs is always: • parts design/engineering &/or • parts quality This is why you see a neverending shitshow of defective UAW garbage from the 3 American OEMs. Personally, if you’re in a position to do, so, I would get a Toyota/Lexus or Honda/Acura (NOT the Odyssey) or a Mazda Subaru is also excellent quality, as long as you are accepting of the fact that you will need to do head gaskets every 100k-150k because of the boxer engine design. It’s a good engine, but it has a a few trade-offs, and 1 of them is head gasket leaks.
Yes the pump has 2stage gasket inner & outter. Coolant will leak past 1st gasket onto ground via weep hole. After that is not address. Coolant will then leak passed 2nd gasket into oil pan
1. 100,000km = 62,137 miles (just barely out of Ford 60k powertrain warranty) 2. with the exception of police cars that frequently run at idle for long periods of time, symptoms on these engines don’t usually start until 100,000 - 150,000 miles 3. usually (not always) the first symptom tends to be liquid or dried coolant around the weep hole on the exterior of the water pump
@@WILEYsUnrequestedRamblings Thank you for answering. I use it primarily to go from suburbs to the city. From Panama Pacifico to Panama City a couple of times a week. Thanks to the lockdown and working from home there is not much movement these days. I will have a look when getting closer to that.
💯 agree. Personally, this kinda shit is why I only buy Japanese: Toyota Mazda Honda (except the Odyssey) Nissan (manual trans only) Isuzu Subaru (as long as you’re prepared to do inevitable head gaskets every 100k)
The Japanese car line i work for put the water pump outside of the timing chain cover. That way if the pump leaks coolant doesnt mix with engine oil. Never heard of timing chains stretching also.
The 2011-19 Explorers have major problems with multiple design flaws. The water pumps destroy the engines, carbon monoxide leaks in the cabin, PTUs failures on AWD models, and catastrophic EPAS steering rack failures.
What idiot at Ford thought that was a good idea...Designed to fail and cost someone a shit load shortly past the end of the warranty...Or job creation for a ford tech replacing a 100.00 water pump but cost thousands in labor...Might as well do the timing chain while the cover is off....smfh.
This is the same engine, but the water pump on all RWD & 4WD engines (including the Mustang) has the water pump relocated to outside the timing cover. You will still have issues every 60k-150k with stretched timing chains (which require 8-12 labor hours of work to replace), but the engine will not be destroyed by coolant entering the oil pan.
@@precisiont5188 P0016 is a stretched chain. The engine in this video was (shockingly) running perfectly fine during my in-laws’ trip to Arkansas at the time. They called me on the way back to ask about a Check Engine Light that had come on, and I wasn’t sure what it might be over the phone from Wisconsin, so I told them to go check it real quick at an AutoZone. P0016. Concerned about the severity of what that code meant, I told them to take it to a local #FuckFord dealership to have it checked out. Dealership said they couldn’t find anything wrong with it, and erased the code. To this day, I believe this was intentional; that they knew exactly what was wrong with it, but also knew that it was highly unlikely that people who were visiting from over 1000 miles away would be willing to stay in a hotel for nearly a week until it was fixed + be able to pay a dealership for something this expensive or be willing to trade it in for a new car while on vacation… so they erased the P0016, gave the owners false peace of mind that there was nothing wrong with it, and rolled it out the door for another shop to deal with… 🤣. Worked out well for me, because ended up I making $1500 in labor to replace the engine + all pads/rotors + front LCAs + front Sway Bar Links/bushings + rear Sway Bar Links/bushings + coolant reservoir + hoses. Unfortunately, I ended up having to do another one of these damned things in March 2021 for my idiot sister’s ‘13 Esploder. I got stiffed on that job, which contributed to the end of my relationship with her. Hers didn’t have stretched chains yet, but the water pump pulley was juuust beginning to get loose at 105k. I fucking hate this engine. The Duratec 3.0 that proceeded it was damned near bulletproof (except for oil pan & VC gasket leaks). If it weren’t for CAFE standards mandated by corrupt left-wing politicians, they’d probably still be using it to this day.
Wow, the stealership did the same to me. My car was actually under warranty when I had to tow my Mustang into the stealership. After bringing it in five times within the same week, they still acted like nothing is wrong. It took me, as someone who at the time didn't know much about vehicles, to find the problem. It is such a suspicious situation. I can tell you things they did and said to avoid honoring the warranty. Once I figured out the problem, they immediately started ignoring me. They wont return my calls, voicemails, etc. I have been respectful the whole time. Their behavior disgusts me. Now that my car is not under warranty it seems I will have to spend a lot on getting it fixed. I reported their behavior to the BBB and left negative reviews. Do you have any advice as how to expose them and make them do what's right and fix this issue?
P0012 indicates the ECM has determined that the intake camshaft timing for bank 1 is more retarded than what the ECM has commanded it to be (over-retarded cam timing condition could have occurred during either advancing or retarding phase) Potential causes: • VCT oil control valve is stuck in the open position • Camshaft phaser is damaged and is stuck in the retarded position • Oil flow problems to the VCT piston and cam phaser
Those Ford Nut sucks I got 2011Edge 2 years ago had 55,000 mile every time you fix something something else goes wrong. Never will I look at another Ford.
You mean a 14 Toreass with this engine in it? The 04 still had the Duratec 3.0L V6 which... ...although it leaks oil like a sieve + has a rear-mounted alternator that is a royal pain in the ass to replace + has a rear CAT which is a rusty-AF nightmare to deal with... ...is a remarkably durable/reliable well-designed engine with an externally-mounted water pump (on the driver-side of the engine near the battery, with its own separate belt & tensioner) I’ve worked on at least 25 different vehicles with the Duratec 3.0, and most of them had 200,000 - 300,000 miles on em (the rest had between 100k - 200k). Aside from the problems I mentioned, that engine is a fantastic piece of machinery. The 3.5/3.7 Cyclone engines are an entirely different design that replaced the 3.0 (largely for fuel economy & vehicle fit reasons). It is the 3.5 & 3.7 engines (called “Cyclone” by #FuckFord) in a transverse configuration (i.e. FRONT-WHEEL DRIVE &/or ALL-WHEEL DRIVE) that are the flaming dumpster fire of poor design/engineering that I discuss in this video.
@@atx-cvpi_99 yeah, but they’re really not tho I literally just finished an alternator job on an 04 Mazda MPV 3.0. That alternator’s kind of a bitch, but the rest of that engine is easy as hell, and they run FOR-EVER I am generally not a fan of the 3.0 OHV Vulcans
@@WILEYsUnrequestedRamblings it might be a 14 but it was previously used as a police detective vehicle so it may be the newer duratech in an older model taurus, but I'm not too certain. Either way, thank you a ton for the info! So far its proven to be really reliable but I just hope I never have to do any work to it because from what I've seen it looks like a real pain to work on. Have a good one man and keep up the great work! Thanks for the very informative video!
...this engine looks like it was built to Fail Prematurely, with built in Obsolescence. 🤨 why on earth would Ford design an engine like this, or was it designed by a European company? They look like they will be disposable engine, because they'll be too Costly to repair when they fail. I'll stick with my GM Gen-III 3.4L LA1 V6 iron block, which is Far Far Far easier to repair. And they made millions of them, so parts are super easy to get at any secondary parts supplier or salvage yard.
I hate GM & Chrysler far more than I hate Ford, but even I have to admit that after the defective intake manifold gaskets are replaced + every last Godforsaken ounce of the engine-killing dumpster fire DexCool garbage is eradicated from the cooling system… …the 3.4 & 3.8 were the last reliable V6 engines made by Government Motors. While I have seen a few develop rod knocks &/or self-destruct (usually in spectacular fashion)… …but every single time it was due to: • owners letting LOF intervals go more than 10k with non-synthetic oil + garbage aftermarket filters (like Fram) • forgetting to do LOFs at all (cuz teenage owners not following their dad’s instructions 🤣) • running the engine w/ no oil cuz they never checked the oil level on an engine which damned near always leaks from the pan gasket + VC gaskets + front crank seal + intake manifold gaskets They also frequently develop coolant leaks from: • the coolant elbows (always replace with the metal aftermarket ones) • the timing cover gasket + water pump gasket (these are both relatively easy to deal with, and should be done together) Gender-neutral fluid pan gasket also usually seeps/leaks, but relatively easy to deal with. Fuel level sensor / sending units tend to go bad &/or have bad wiring. Relatively easy to deal with thru the back seat/trunk in some models; pain in the ass on some other models which require dropping the tank. Like all GM vehicles of the mid-90s - late 00s, the Evap Vent Solenoid ALWAYS fails, which causes a Check Engine Light. Easy as hell to replace.
check the weep hole for evidence of a leak (front side of the engine, behind the alternator) I guarantee you’ll see dried coolant (or possibly wet coolant)
@@WILEYsUnrequestedRamblings I’ll check it, although my oil has never shown any signs of having coolant in it. I change it once about every 5K miles and have never noticed a milky color before. Ever since I found out about the issue every week or so I’ll check the dipstick and pull off the oil cap to visually inspect it. I’ll definitely check that out though.
Built ford tough. My add. They copied the Chrysler 2.7l engine disaster. No wonder edges are everywhere. Mix. Mot. Just like Chrysler. These 3.5 and 3.7l e vines in all there cars. So you 'll need a new car.
7thno you might be on to something there, it would be interesting to see who did design this engine, as engineers jump from manufacturer to manufacturer all the time.
Desert Fox Chrysler & GM are MUCH MUCH worse, but Ford has gotten increasingly crappier with each passing year I always tell my friends/customers: “Unless you want to be seeing me all the time... Do NOT buy American. For maximum reliability & longevity, I recommend Japanese: • Mazda (except anything with a rotary engine) • Honda / Acura (except the Odyssey due to power sliding door issues & transmission failure issues) • Toyota / Lexus / Scion (except the FRS/GT86 due to Subaru-sourced boxer engine head gasket issues) • Isuzu (except any/all models partially or entirely sourced from GM: Ascender, I-Series, Hombre, etc) If you can’t find or afford one of those: • Nissan / Infiniti (RWD auto or manual trans only; do NOT buy anything with a CVT trans under ANY circumstances) • Subaru (they make very good well-engineered products with an amazing safety record, but have a long history of head gasket issues due to use of boxer engine in all of their vehicles)
George Paniagua That’s not even a contest. The wife & I own 2 Mazdas: • 07 Mazda3 2.0L iTouring (FN4A-EL trans) • 09 Mazda5 2.3L Sport (FS5A-EL trans) Wife’s late grandfather (passed in ‘13) was an electrical maintenance mechanic at the Ford plant in Avon Lake OH, so both Mazdas were purchased brand new (in Jul.07 & Dec.08) under Ford A-Plan/Mazda S-Plan employee pricing program. I chose Mazdas for our family instead of Fords for good reason; I had worked on enough Fords (and other American vehicles) to know better than to ever own one. Not including Tesla (which is a whole different animal), Ford is the best of the American automakers. Unfortunately, that is such a LOW bar for reliability, engineering, and build quality that it’s more of an insult than a compliment. The thing that makes Ford products unreliable, more expensive, and generally inferior to the foreign competition is the same thing that plagues the other 2 American automakers: • unionized factory workforce (UAW) • largely-unionized (UAW) supplier workforces It’s an unfortunate but very true reality that the more pension & healthcare benefits a company pays to its workers, the lesser the quality of everything else in the product (reliability, assembly quality, engineering, parts quality, etc). I’ve been wrenching professionally for 13yrs now, and I’ve seen this truth bear itself out in every single vehicle I have ever worked on. “The Associated Press reported that, for example, the average United Auto Workers member makes $29.78 per hour at GM, while Toyota pays its workers (most of whom are non-union) about $30 per hour. However, when total benefits (including pensions and health care for workers, retirees and their spouses) is factored in, GM's total hourly labor costs is about $69, while Toyota's is about $48.” www.cbsnews.com/news/the-true-price-of-auto-labor-costs/ Using logic & a bit of math, you can easily see why products from partially or fully non-unionized companies are: • designed better • engineered better • built/assembled better • made of better quality materials • more reliable • cheaper to buy • cheaper (and easier) to repair/maintain Unlike other maintenance/repair providers out there, I see it as my personal mission to do anything & everything within my abilities to help my family members/friends/neighbors/customers NOT need my services. I am in an extremely unique position to do this because, while my services are not cheap, my family’s income & finances are in a position where they do not in any way depend on income/compensation for my services; I am a “hobbyist”. I am extremely busy & well-compensated (usually with 2-5 jobs waiting at any given time), but this is a hobby. To that end (putting people in a position to NOT need my services), I advise everyone I deal with to do whatever they can to get themselves in a appropriate financial position (as soon as they are able to do so) to trade-in/sell/junk their UAW-made American vehicles in favor of more reliable higher quality new or used vehicles from: • Mazda • Toyota / Lexus • Honda / Acura (except Odyssey due to trans failure issues + expensive power sliding door system failures on ‘05⁺ models) • Isuzu (non-GM models only) • Nissan / Infiniti (RWD/4WD models only, avoid the FWD/AWD models with the infamous CVT transmissions failures at all costs) • Subaru (be prepared for unavoidable boxer engine head gasket replacements every 100k miles, otherwise fantastic vehicles) As for your specific situation (choosing between CX9 vs Edge): If you are dead set on a CX9 (as opposed a CX5 or CX3 which are MUCH better), you should know that the unibody chassis of the CX9 is a Ford design (the Edge) carried over from the era when Ford still owned 33% of Mazda. It is not a true Mazda design, and even though the second generation ‘16⁺ models now come with Mazda’s SkyActiv 2.5L turbo + one of Mazda’s excellent fluid-based (non-dual-clutch) transmissions, it still drives, rides, and handles like the bulky/clunky 15yr-old Ford chassis that it is. Unless you have a specific need for frequent use of 3 row seating, I would heavily advise the CX3 or the CX5 (both of which are based on the fantastic Mazda3 chassis)
FWD / AWD vehicles: No The only way to prevent the problem is to not purchase a vehicle with this setup. If it were possible to reengineer this set up with 3 primary timing chains + 2 secondary chains, or with an external electric-powered coolant pump, that would probably fix the issue. Unfortunately, none of these are possible with this setup. RWD / 4WD vehicles: #FuckFord knew they had a problem when they engineered this stupid thing, so they moved the water pump to an area on the outside of the timing cover, where it is driven by the serpentine belt. inside of the timing cover, there is a idler pulley in the place of where the water pump otherwise would be. While these vehicles do not suffer from the engine - destroying coolant problem, they do still have the other major issue with this design: timing chain stretch. This requires the timing chains to be replaced every 60K - 150K miles. Unlike the FWD/AWD versions of this engine, this does not require the engine + front subframe to be dropped out of the bottom of the vehicle, because there is more than enough room to remove the timing cover off of the front of the engine with everything still in the vehicle. Labor for this is 12.3 (primary + both secondary chains) or 11.3 (just the primary chain). The long and short of it is that it doesn’t really matter which vehicle you have with the Cyclone 3.5 or 3.7, you are still going to have to pay a mechanic $1500-$2500 in labor + $500-$1000 in parts every 60k-150k miles to remove the timing cover and replace either the Tchains + idler or the Tchains + water pump. it is unavoidable.
As an independent repair shop I am glad you give pricing on parts and labor to repair these nightmares. Looks like Ford will be shutting down car production soon.
My 3.7’s pump failed around 30k..thank god the factory warranty covered it. Got the updated pump design installed with new chains and tensioners. I’ll be having them changed again at 100k just to be safe
I love my 3.0l Duratec. Water pump is camshaft driven and easy to access. Alternator sucks and oil leaks are a state of being but she's always been reliable.
WILEY Motorsports S.P. I really feel it was one of Fords better engines. They love to rev and they handle abuse very well. My version is basic with no VVT so not much to go wrong. Oil leaks do suck though. I really wish it had the twin turbos and GDI.
I had 3 Taurus's 2010, 2011, and 2013, over 300K total miles driven no problems thankfully
I have a 2011 F150 3.7 engine in it it has 210,000 miles on it I got it when it had 108,000 miles on it I have for a 8000 pound trailer from North Carolina to Birmingham Alabama with the no problems with it I have drove to Detroit Michigan from Alabama 10 times pulling a trailer camper trailer with no problems gas and go change oil’s every 10,000 miles only use Castrol synthetic oil and Lucas oil stabilizer synthetic 1 quart
Still driving it to this day
@@stevenwoods5090the f150s have external water pumps. only issue with those is cam phasers.
Great video. Really makes one miss that 6 in my 1970 Maverick.
It’s a close call, but having the unique perspective of having to deal with rebuilding the A14 engine in my late father’s 1980 Datsun 210 wagon (google: #SaveMWBDatsun)...
...I’d honestly rather deal with modern engines with an ECM + individual system modules that tune themselves in milliseconds than deal with ANY type of carburetor
Doesn't apply to f150/mustang applications. Thankfully in the RWD cars the water pump is external.
Spillow thank goodness was ready to trade in my 2013 3.7 mustang after watching this ...hopefully my 3.7 does not have any big problems ..it has been good so far
Spillow What about the explorer? I've heard in the explorer as well as other vehicles, it's very common to see these engines with 200-300k and no issues and that this issue is very rare but still want to check.
What about 2017 Ford F-150 v6 not eco boost
That's good to know. I was worried about my Mustang's engine shitting the bed randomly in 5 years due to this.
Check put Fordtech makaluco, he also is a tech guru,
Besides the dual seal on the housing going bad, the main cause for these water pumps to leak is that there is too much chain tension on the actual water pump causing the shaft bearings and seal to prematurely fail. You can easily catch these problem by doing regular oil changes looking for water in the oil or if the water pump shaft all of a sudden gets worse. You'll lose power instantly and will definitely know something has happened with the check engine light coming on catch it early and don't let the shop tell you that your head gasket blew out.
The acute angle at which the chain arrives at & departs from the water pump causes a massive upwards strain on the pulley bearings.
The problems with the engine in this video started with a Check Engine Light that came on while the owners (wife’s parents) were down south in Arkansas. When it arrived at my home-based shop (formerly located in Hartford Wisconsin from Sept.2015-Jan-2022), I found it in this condition with an active camshaft-crankshaft correlation code stored in the PCM + coolant on the dipstick + oil in the coolant reservoir
@@WILEYsUnrequestedRamblings same issue my wife had. She said it had cut off on her twice that day then tried to over heat. I pulled the same codes. Oil was milky. Drove to a local shop. They told me it was the head gasket. Car showed no sign of a blow head gasket though.it only had 60k on it. They gave me an $4500 estimate to just swap the engine. I told them I was just going to break it down at home just to see if it’s the pump which it was. After doing the job myself with just the basic tools and a 3 ton jack. There will be no next time, she just going to get a new car 😂. I see why this job calls for $1200-$1500 just to change the pump. But I saved a whole lot doing it my self though.
@@Bigsteve123 I hope you flushed the everliving hell out of both the entire oil system + coolant system. I usually drop the oil pan to either send it to the machine shop for cleaning or replace it. Any coolant sludge deposits left inside the oil pan can get loose and sent through the system to severely damage the VVT system, the camshaft bearings, the rod bearings, or the main bearings.
@@WILEYsUnrequestedRamblings yes yes I did, I cleaned the pan up real good. The engine wasn’t that bad. But I did change the oils after running for about 30 minutes. Cooling system I just stuck a water hose in the reservoir and drained the radiator all at the same time of running the engine for a while lol. All of this was a year ago. It’s been running good. Went ahead change spark plugs and valve cover gaskets while I was in it.
@@Bigsteve123 besides replacing the coolant reservoir (which I usually do), I’m not sure you could’ve done that job any better than what you described. Bravo Sir.
You're speaking of the FWD (latitudinal mounted) 3.7L (and 3.5L). Is water pump failure less painful for the (longitudinal mounted) 3.7L's in the Mustang? (ie: coolant weeping on the floor and then technician access in replacing the pump)?
We lost the water pump in our 2012 Mustang at
I have 3.7 v6 in Lincoln mkT stretch limousine. The engine is under 10+ hours a day running in full load in the heavy car. So far the car is 140k miles and the other fee car in the fleet are well over 200k. No issies at all so far.
Will have your advices in mind and if for some reason i see coolant sensor light will shit car immediately before more coolant runs into the oil. This bulletproof engine looks like it has a ticking dissadter inside. They should have done this pump on the outside.
I have a 2008 ford Taurus 3.5 with 247,000 mlies on it i bought it at 58,000 miles.. Never did a water pump or timing Just used best oil and coolant.... After seeing this i might have too now
My 2008 CX-9 Duratec 37 103k miles, fwd, Mobil 1 full synthetic and filter every 5k, no problems, no coolant loss. New plugs and engine runs like new, has been the perfect car.
Might want to stay on top of coolant flush at reg intervals too.
Damnittt, same engine in my 08 Lincoln MKX and I’m just under 100k mi just bought her couple a months ago! Certainly good info tho thanks for posting...
Just watch your coolant level and for any kind of squealing. also because it is the Suv it is cheaper to replace because in a fusion you have to drop the motor.
Thanks for the video! I learned a lot. My friend's coworker has this car and the dealer changed her water pump recently. Now the dealer said something about "valves" and they want $7,000 to fix the car. I'm going to take a look at it for shits and giggles. It's a 2010 Lincoln MKX
did they break 1 or more valves by timing the engine incorrectly while doing the water pump job?
@@WILEYsUnrequestedRamblings I think that is what happened. Water pump done at 121k miles so I assume the chain must have been loose. Your video shows that it would have been smart to also change out the chain, guides, oil pump, cam phasers, vvt solenoids, & tensioner at least. But that wasn't done at all. So, when I go to look at this car I want to see if it's salvageable. If it isn't then well I guess it is junk 🤷♂️
@@cupompa yeah, the chains are ALWAYS stretched loose
Basically, the shop that did the work did a shit job, and they should be redoing it correctly for free.
If they don’t, it may be time for small claims court &/or contacting the BBB
@@cupompa ...your friend's coworker needs to see if their is a Class Action lawsuit against Ford, for such a shitty job being done on their vehicle. IF they didn't follow Ford recommended repair procedures, didn't properly inform the owner of the problems, then they deliberately Sabotaged their vehicle. That's some BS service, if you ask me.
Thanks for the excellent film detailing the problems with the 3.5 liter motor; good to hear from an honest mechanic. My problem being I have Toyotas, and I want to buy a good sized American car for long distance travel. I wanted a northstar V8, and a Chrysler Town and Country, or a Ford Flex; they all have bad engines. Question is there a US brand car that is worth buying, presently my Toyotas have 180 to 200 thousand miles. Thanks again for the report.
Chevrolet Tahoe. OHV engine inside it has a solid reputation for being bulletproof.
Ford Crown Victoria.
No, there is not a US car worth buying. I wish there were, but the unfortunate reality is that Mazda (except #FuckFord products), Honda (except the Odyssey), and especially Toyota build the most reliable vehicles on the planet.
There’s a reason why every time you see trucks in the background of some video from South America, Africa, the Middle East, or Southeast Asia… they are nearly always Toyota. When it absolutely positively must perform correctly every time, you get a Toyota.
@@waltchan except for the ones that have cylinder deactivation. They royally screwed up their only good engine when they put that stupid garbage on there.
I have a 2011 F150 3.7L and I've noticed that I have a small coolant leak. Thankfully the water pump is external but I'm assuming this very well could be the problem. What's the easiest way to verify? Is the best fix to simply replace the water pump itself?
Engineers and bean counters don’t care about longevity or serviceability. I have a Mazda CX-9 that just had the same problem. Worst V6 engine design ever.
I assume the engine is being teplaced because of bearing issued resulting from coolant in the engine oil. But when i was wrenching i would frequently see a bit of coolant drain out during oil changes when changing intake or head gaskets. That never killed the late 1990s Chevy engines. Why is a bit of coolant trashing these Ford engines?
Very nice informative video. Thanks
I feel it's important to note that versions of the 3.7 are found in f150 XL trucks, and base mustangs.. dunno if the timing system is different, but it's important to note it..
There are 2 issues with this engine:
• timing chain stretch (requiring moderately expensive replacement at approx 60,000-150,000mi intervals)
• failed water pump (requiring EXTREMELY-expensive requiring replacement of pump + chains + several other parts at approx 60,000-150,000mi intervals. Sometimes, engine is so damaged by water pump failure that engine replacement is only economically feasible option)
The FWD & AWD (transverse-mounted) versions of this engine suffer from BOTH problems.
The RWD/4WD (longitudinal-mounted) versions of this engine suffer from ONLY the timing chain stretch issue. This is because on these engines, the water pump was relocated to a position outside of the timing cover.
@@WILEYsUnrequestedRamblings chain stretch is common in almost all OHC designs simply because the amount of chain that is used. That is borderline forgivable, as, the OHC designs of today make decent power and have acceptable fuel economy. That said, a better chain and tensioner should exist
@@PureCountryof91
This engine should utilize 2 shorter chains instead of 1 long chain. This is a common feature in many other engines. This engine requires Tchain replacement at MUCH more frequent intervals than comparable V6 engines from competitors (especially the Japanese). The turbo versions wear them down even faster.
Dude reminds me of Tommyboy
I’ve always thought of myself as more of a motivational speaker living in a van down by the river, but I see where you’re coming from 🤣
I hope you see this comment. I have had this same issue and had an engine replacement. I have to old engine because it only had 80K on it. My dad and I want to rebuild the engine however, my mechanic told me that there are no timing marks on this engine. So how do you time the engine with no timing marks?
lmao what a liar! shady ass mechanic
I tell customers to do a main chain & pump combo at 100k regardless. Keep a good pump and the right oil in one and the engine will run along time.
I'm at 150k so I better hop to it.
@@MrDavidknigge They’re not really horrendous is to replace especially if the engine has received oil changes on a regular basis
Some do all chains and tensioners as well. Might as well as long as youre in there i suppose. I saw a short video for a specialty tool to set the timing - no not a timing light - y'a know with the OH cams.
@@MrDavidknigge You can do it all while you’re there. It really depends on what you find when you get in there. Well serviced engines show little chain, guide, and tensioner wear.
@@MrDavidknigge I’ve never needed the special tool . It’s not a must.
Should also put a Melling oil pump in at the same time since they have a higher psi unit. Also recommend changing the coolant every 50,000 miles or 5 years.
In my opinion, changing of the coolant every 50k is unnecessary for this engine, as the water pump tends to go bad every 75k - 150k (around 60k for police cruisers that idle a lot more than regular cars with these engines), so the water pump should be replaced as a preventive measure at 75k intervals. Unfortunately, this is a 10.5 hour job with the engine still in the car (most techs know better than to try it this way because it’s FAAAR easier to deal with when the engine & subframe are dropped), which makes this job prohibitively expensive for most people, which is why I recommend that people do not buy vehicles with this engine (or any vehicles from #FuckFord, #FuckGM, or #FuckChrysler because union-made vehicles < Toyota, Honda, Mazda vehicles).
@@WILEYsUnrequestedRamblings The Ford 3.5L from 2007 was designed by Mazda. This also applies to the 1.5, 2.0, 2.3, 2.7, 3.3, and 3.7L engines. That is according to a Ford engineer that I know that wants to remain nameless. That is a very well engineered Japanese engine. Might be why the water pumps go out?
@@fogit4668 I have heard this line of bullshit from so many people that it’s extremely aggravating at this point. Anyone who has ever taken apart one of these engines knows that it was not designed by Mazda, because Mazda has not designed a V6 of their own since the mid-90s. The reason why this inaccurate information is so widespread is because the first vehicle that is engine premiered in was a CX-9 (which is a Mazda-badged version of a stretched Ford version of the Ford CD3 platform that was originally engineered by Mazda.) AND because Ford’s corporate management is rather embarrassed by this engine, so they regularly tell their techs that it’s Mazda’s fault. I know this because I have a friend who is a Ford master certified technician at a dealership in the Milwaukee area. He heard this exact same information when he was down in Chicago for a week of training several years ago. I had to correct his information, as I am now correcting information.
The 3.5 & 3.7 engines were fully designed & engineered by Ford, and are known as the Cyclone engine. Is the engine is produced at Ford’s Lima Engine facility in Lima, OH.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Cyclone_engine
As far as the 4 bangers that Ford makes, all of those are Mazda designed engines that Ford got the IP rights to before they sold off the rest of their Mazda stock in 2008/2009. At the time that this occurred, Mazda made sure that Ford did not get access to their Sky-Activ technology, but only the rights to the L-Series engine. Ford has been making various derivatives of this engine ever since because Ford has not been able to produce a 4cylinder engine of their own for decades. This was around the same time that Mazda stopped making V6 engines, because there was no need to do so any longer because any V6 engine that they needed for their vehicles they could get from Ford, just as Ford was getting all of their 4-bangers from Mazda.
If you have ever taken apart one of these engines (like I have twice now) + any other engine from Mazda + any other engine from Ford, you would know that The Americans & the Japanese use different sizes for all of their bolts. I’ve never understood why this is the case, but you see it in every single vehicle that you take apart from each of the manufacturers from those countries.
Japanese: 8mm, 10mm, 12mm, 14mm, 17mm, 21mm, 24mm
Americans: 8mm, 10mm, 13mm, 15mm, 18mm, 19mm, 22mm
This pattern is the same across every single engine, every single transmission, every single suspension piece, every lug nut, every seat belt bolt, and every other fastener on every vehicle from those 2 countries.
I own 2 Mazdas (07 Mazda3 2.0, 10 Mazda5 2.3). There are 12mm & 14mm all over both cars. There are NO 13mm or 15mm bolts anywhere.
I’ve worked on Mazda6’s (which used to be made at the Flat Rock MI plant that they used to share with Ford) that have the 3.0 Duratec engine. There are 13mm & 15mm bolts all over that engine, as well as on the rest of the car. The 3.5 & 3.7 have 13mm & 15mm all over that engine. No 12mm or 14mm anywhere.
The same situation goes for when you work on a Ford Escape that has a Mazda four-cylinder in it. You see 12mm, 14mm, and 17mm bolts all of the engine, but nowhere else anywhere on that car. You see 13mm & 15mm all over the rest of the car, but nowhere on the engine or trans.
This is how you can always easily tell where things actually originate.
@@WILEYsUnrequestedRamblings So the Ford engineers that I know don't know what engines they actually designed? Does this mean that a Mazda water pump would fit in a Ford 3.5L and would be a better pump? The bolt sizes might tell you where the engine was cast an assembled but it does not tell you where it was designed.
My questions are all because I am trying to learn if there is a better part that can be put in when ever I have to make a part replacement.
@@fogit4668 I don’t understand. If you know the engineers responsible for this engine, then why are you asking me whether or not a Mazda pump will fit inside of this Ford-designed engine.
They have coolant fan problems too!!!! With no temperature gauge only a notification when your vehicle has already overheated it comes on. Thanks to youtubers there's a video shows you how to replace the coolant fan
Omg! You ain't never lied! I had my engine 3.5 replaced last year (2011 Taurus SEL) exact same problem mentioned in this video! To a T! Now, I noticed the fan is loud, only comes on when the A/C is on and soon as I turn the car off the fans are off?! This can't be right or is it?
I had this problem with my 2009 Lincoln 3.5L MKZ 58,000 Miles.
Dealer wanted $2,160.00 to repair & I don't know If they were going to do the extra repair you're doing.
No out of warranty In years so I just got rid of It. It had low millage because I'm 6'2" tall and 250 Lbs - didn't have enough leg room and on a long drive I found the seats too narrow. So I bought a brand New 2016 Kia (No Turbo) Optima & the Kia has plenty of leg room and comfortable seats.
Great video! I have a 2013 Lincoln MKT 3.7 engine with 194891 miles.
If I can change 1 timing component with water pump, what should that be? Tight on funds.
Changing the water pump for prevention maintenance
How I'm the hell did you manage to get that many miles without replacing the water pump, I'm at 80k and water pump failed
Exactly what happened to the 3.5 in my 2010 fusion. In the shop getting a new engine right now.
WILEY Motorsports S.P. ended up about 7 grand. But I bought I brand new ford crate engine. Engine, all hoses, all sensors on the intake and exhaust were replaced. Radiator was refurbished. Had a bunch of stuff like that done since it was all pulled out anyway. Feels kind of dumb to spend that on a car that age, but everything else is like new.
I know I could have saved a lot with a salvage or refurbished engine, but I plan on getting another 100k out of that thing.
WILEY Motorsports S.P. BTW, that KS for the good video. I showed it to my mechanic. He already knew the engine was a gonner, but hadn't gotten to the cause. He didn't know the water pump was the culprit. But sure thing, as the engine was pulled and they drained the remaining coolant, plastic chunks of the water pump's impeller came out with it.
Jason Vaughn did you have the dealer do it.. my 2012 edge motor just did this and I am afraid to take it to the deal to see what the cost would be.
2013 ford Taurus 3.5 I replace the chain, water pump,and tension, crank gear only at 86000 mile no issue when I traded at 150000miles
Ford has built many great engines, but what the hell are they doing with these engines ??
I would rather have an electric water pump detached from the block than to have one inside the engine and being used on the timing system. Not saying electric pumps are good or cheap, but I have a hunch it would be easier to repair and not ruin the engine.
So is this still the same case with the 2018 3.7 Transit Van, which is RWD? Chatter on the Internet says that the 3.7 in the van, because it is mounted differently for the rear wheel drive set up, doesn’t have the same water pump issue… That may be the water pump is not in the same place? Is there any truth to that, or is this exactly the same engine weather is it a front wheel drive car or a rear wheel drive transit? I guess my question is, can this happen to any 3.7, no matter what vehicle it’s in no matter what Dr. set up it has?
water pump placement was well thought out to make you buy new car
and this kind of shit is why people should NEVER buy ANYthing made by the UAW
My 2010 Lincoln MKX started losing coolant. I couldn't see it in the oil. I ran it another couple days and the motor stopped running. The water pump locked up and broke timing chain, bent every valve. Still waiting on all the parts for the heads to be reconditioned. Only 75k miles.
It's possible the hot oil burned off the lost coolant so you wouldn't necessarily see it in the oil. But the pump sprocket would wear out and allow the chain to slip anyway.
Exactly what happened to my 2011 Taurus SEL 3.5L. IN THE SAME CHRONOLOGICAL ORDER!
So what happened to the original engine did coolant get in the oil and burn up the bearings or what I don't understand why you just didn't put timing chain and water pump on the original engine
Obviously it will fail eventually regardless but didn't they beef up the timing system and water pump bearing in like 2013 to make this issue harder to happen?
they made design changes that extended the mileage timeframe of the water pump failures, so that they now fail slightly later than they used to, but that’s it.
The design of that water pump + that location + + that much stress on the timing chain + the size & location of that opening directly into the oil pan (for coolant to spill into when the pump fails) is the problem
Ford was very much aware of this, which is why the location & design of the water pump is different on all RWD/4WD models with this engine (3.5, 3.7). On those vehicles, the water pump is relocated to the OUTSIDE of the timing cover & turned by the serpentine belt. While this does not solve the extremely common issue of stretched timing chains, it does resolve the water pump bearing issue & the failed-water-pump-leaking-coolant-directly-into-the-oil-pan issue.
This is why the F150 & the Mustang do not have this water pump problem. They still have stretched timing chains requiring expensive replacements every 60k-100k miles, but the engines do not self-destruct because of large quantities of coolant pouring down into the oil pan.
Ford fixed this during the tivct model. Twin timing chain system on the internal water pump
That statement is not factually accurate.
They fixed the coolant-pissing-into-oil-pan issue on the RWD-based models by moving the water pump to the outside of the engine to be spun by the drive belt (instead of internally by the timing chain)
Unfortunately, it did not fix either the stretched timing chain or the faulty VVT solenoid issues, so the longitudinally-mounted versions of this 3.5/3.7 engine still require replacement chains + tensioners around 100k-150k miles
I heard they fixed this problem does anyone know what yr it was updated?
When the 3.5/3.7 went to twin independent vct in 2011 I believe. I've done so many water pumps on these, and the updated ones with the double chain sprocket NEVER leak internally. Always put from behind the alternator.
Is this the same engine that’s inside the ford transit 250
Water pumps are a wear item...bad, bad location...
What year does that apply to??? I have a 2013 f150 with a 3.7l but tbe water pump on that looks like kts driven by a belt? Am i wrong???
Does the 3.5 EcoBoost have the same issue
JAGExecutiveServicesInc
The answer is:
yes & no
- ALL of the 3.5 and 3.7 Cyclone (Ford’s internal name for them) engines suffer from stretched timing chain issues.
On the EcoBoost versions, the stretching damage is accelerated by the stress of the turbo.
As such, the answer to 1 part of your question (in regards to the timing chain stretching problems) is Yes. Every single one of these engines will require replacement of the 3 timing chains + 3 tensioners at some point prior to 150,000 miles. The EcoBoost versions tend to require new chains prior to 100,000 miles. The labor cost of timing chain replacement varies according to whether the vehicle is RWD or FWD/AWD...
...and this is the part that REALLY matters, as it will likely determine whether the original engine is repaired or replaced.
On the FWD-based models (Edge, Flex, Taurus, Exploder, Lincoln MKZ, Lincoln MKZ, 07-15 Mazda CX9, 2012 Fusion Sport, 07-12 Mazda6) the water pump is INSIDE THE TIMING COVER, directly above a large rectangular opening to the oil pan. This allows coolant to leak directly into the oil supply, which mixes with the oil & produces the black sludge you see in the video. The oil pump then spreads that black sludge into all parts of the engine (including the rod bearings, main bearings, camshaft, lifters, VVT solenoids, timing chain tensioners, etc), which destroys the engine.
On the RWD-based vehicles (Transit, F150, Mustang, etc) the water pump is OUTSIDE THE TIMING COVER. This eliminates all of the engine-destruction issues that plague the FWD engines, but not the timing chain stretching issue. The timing chains will still have to be replaced 1-3 times over the life of the vehicle, but the engine will not have to be replaced due to coolant sludge damage.
I have a 2008 Lincoln MKX AWD with 95k miles on the 3.5 Duratec engine.
Is that the same engine design as you're showing? Is there a major quality difference between the 3.5l I have and the updated 3.5l with vvt? Also is there a timing chain replacement interval on my engine?
How common is this issue? My warranty runs out in November and I'm debating trading in.
If you mentioned this in your video, I must have missed it. My question........Is there a way to make the water pump last longer or is the water pump issue completely random?
Another YT'er with 2 Edge's with 200,000 miles replaced the coolant every couple years to prevent it becoming acidic and damaging the rubber water to oil seals. He sawed a couple pumps in half to show that the root cause is the failure of the rubber seal. It then allows water into the ball and needle bearings which soon rust and flat spot and then the pump sprocket gets sloppy ....
A 3.7 duratec without prior problems, how do you properly guarantee it’s in time besides solely relying on the 3 marks on the phasers and crank?
As with any timing job on any engine, you physically rotate the engine multiple times by hand until all the marks line up again. I usually hand-rotate as many times as it takes for the marks on the engine + the marks on the chain to line up again at least twice. I always remove the spark plugs prior to doing any timing job, as it makes hand-rotation of the engine MUCH easier.
@@WILEYsUnrequestedRamblings that sounds like the safest way to play it. I keep hearing that you don’t need to line up the colored links on the chain to the marks on the engine just line up the marks on the phasers and crank in the right direction.
Wish I knew this.. my 2012 edge sports motor just took a dump yesterday.. 108000 miles I am so pissed.. I think the bearings are shot now.
WILEY Motorsports S.P. yeah it was the water pump bearing that went bad and trashed the motor.. 6800 for brand new motor.. What a let down from ford.. I owned 4 5.0 mustangs over the years and those motors was great.. I use to beat on them at the track and I never had any major issues with them unless I pushed them too far and i expected then.
i have 2009 sable 3.5 v6 259,000 miles no issues yet. but Ford has front end issues
did you also change the oil pump to a HV
I have a 2015 Explorer and have 135,000 miles. And its leaking coolant ,from behind the alternator. Do I need the whole water pump replaced or just the gaskets ?
1. Water pump + gasket
2. 3 Timing chains (primary + 2 secondary)
3. 3 TChain tensioners (primary + 2 secondary)
4. 1 caulking gun cartridge of Ultra Black RTV
5. 2 VVT solenoids
6. 1 set of Valve Cover gaskets
7. 1 new Crank Pulley bolt (stretch/TTY bolt; 1-time use only)
My 2010 MKS 3.7 has a slightly irregular idle. It almost sounds like a cam lope. 149K
The pump has a double o-ring. No rtv is needed for the pump to seal against the block.
My 2010 fusion sport started to make a noise at 100k and i thought it was a belt. lucly i sow some coolant coming out of the weep hole (imposable to find) and has the pump changed before any issue $2800 In labor at a ford dealer but lucky i have my own mechanic that does better work for a lot better price.
Does this affect the 2017 Explorer with the 3.5 N/A V6?
It affects all FWD and AWD vehicles equipped with either the 3.3L, the 3.5L, or the 3.7L version of the Cyclone engine
3.3L:
• 2020 Ford Explorer Hybrid
3.5L N/A & 3.5L EcoBoost (turbo):
• 2007⁺ Ford Edge
• 2007⁺ Lincoln MKX
• 2007⁺ Lincoln MKZ
• 2008⁺ Ford Taurus
• 2008⁺ Ford Taurus X
• 2008⁺ Mercury Sable
• 2009⁺ Ford Flex
• 2010-2019 Ford Taurus SHO
• 2010⁺ Lincoln MKS
• 2010-2012 Ford Fusion (Sport model ONLY)
• 2010⁺ Lincoln MKT
• 2011-2019 Ford Explorer
• 2013⁺ Ford Police Interceptor
• 2014⁺ Ford Police Interceptor Utility
3.7L N/A
• 2007-2016 Mazda CX-9
• 2009⁺ Lincoln MKS
• 2009-2013 Mazda 6
• 2010⁺ Lincoln MKT
• 2011-2014 Ford Edge
• 2013-2016 Lincoln MKZ
• 2013⁺ Ford Police Interceptor
• 2013⁺ Ford Police Interceptor Utility
• 2017⁺ Lincoln Continental
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Cyclone_engine
WILEY Motorsports SP The Explorer from 2020 is RWD.
Hey can I replace my 2016 ford explorer 3.5 engine with a 2013 mkx 3.7 engine ?
I’m not sure why a person would want to do that, because the end result would be the same.
The 3.5L and 3.7L have the exact same problems with timing chain stretch. The FWD/AWD versions have the additional problem of water pumps leaking into the oil pan.
I’m not sure why a person would think that’s a good idea to replace one with the other when they both have the exact same problems.
I have 2014 ford edge! Is this affecting me too???help!!!!!!
Have you ever heard of someone switching to the external pump like on the F150 and 3.7 mustangs?
There is no space in the engine compartment of the FWD vehicles to make that modification, which is why Ford placed it inside the timing cover on the FWD models in the first place
The bell housing on the RWD engines are different so it will not bolt up to the 6F series transmissions. It won’t fit because of the bell housing.
If you were just doing an engine swap, how many hours would you charge, i have the same issue, but i have a replacement engine ready to go
Mr. Wiley, Mazda vs. Toyota for reliability?
Throw away car design. Water pump leaks...get new car.
Does the 3.0 Duratecs have the same issues?
The 3.0 Duratec engine that preceded this one does not have this issue, because the water pump is mounted externally on the driver side of the engine, in the front of the engine bay. It runs off a small ribbed belt that is linked to a tensioner + a pulley that is pressed onto the end of the Bank 2 exhaust camshaft (which is longer than the other camshafts, so it sticks out of the end of the cylinder head). The labor time for replacing the water pump in the 3.0 Duratec is a little over an hour or so. It is extremely easy to do. It is extremely frustrating that this design did not carry forward into the next generation of V6 engines from Ford, and I have been trying to figure out their reasoning for this for many years. The only thing I’ve been able to come up with that ended up taking that space in the next generation engine is 1 extra anti-noise baffle for the hose between the throttle body and the air filter box. #FuckFord’s decision to move that water pump to the inside of the timing cover for the FWD versions of the 3.5 & 3.7 engines is one of the most idiotically unnecessary & costly (for warranty repair reasons) decisions I have ever seen out of this automaker.
Where can you get a $900 used engine? I have a 2014 mazda cx-9 that used the ford engine. I get qoute of 4k for used engine
At the time (2017 or 2018), I got it from LKQ in Hustisford WI.
That was at my discounted cost for an entire engine assembly w/ less than 100k.
Before I put it in, I replaced all the chains + tensioners + the WP as a preventive measure.
Parts from the dealer + RockAuto were around $800ish at my discounted cost.
@@WILEYsUnrequestedRamblings thanks. dealer qoute me 8K to replace the engine..lol. My engine already has 197k miles on it. Do you think its worth replacing water pump and all the knick knacks in the engine area? vs replacing engine which will eventually fail and back to square one. My only other option is run this car off the cliff or pray for a slippery rainy day to end its life. My 2014 cx-9 is good car. roomy, the engine is good also. Really bad design. I wonder why didnt Ford do a similar think like HOnda to closed that oil pan opening. Couldn't ford do a recall to install new redesign oil pan.?
@@maolo76 Honda closed that opening on certain engines bc Honda used a timing belt instead of chains for a lot longer than other OEMs
Once they went to chains, they also had to have an opening to the oil pan for the oil to drain into.
Honda was smart enough to not place the water pump within the timing cover, as was every other OEM who uses chains.
Stupid designs like this are caused by the fact that #FuckFord’s (like #FuckChrysler + #FuckGM) workforce is unionized. When a customer will only pay __x__ for a product, and labor costs more than competitors…
…math dictates that something has to give, and the thing that gives with the American OEMs is always:
• parts design/engineering
&/or
• parts quality
This is why you see a neverending shitshow of defective UAW garbage from the 3 American OEMs.
Personally, if you’re in a position to do, so, I would get a Toyota/Lexus or Honda/Acura (NOT the Odyssey) or a Mazda
Subaru is also excellent quality, as long as you are accepting of the fact that you will need to do head gaskets every 100k-150k because of the boxer engine design. It’s a good engine, but it has a a few trade-offs, and 1 of them is head gasket leaks.
Es malo ese 3.7 en la ford f150 ?
Is there anyway to foresee the pending failure before it happens
Yes the pump has 2stage gasket inner & outter. Coolant will leak past 1st gasket onto ground via weep hole. After that is not address. Coolant will then leak passed 2nd gasket into oil pan
@@benitojr468 yeah that only works if it's a gasket failure if the pulley fails it just goes right to the oil
How to tell when to check for that? Any clues? I have a 2013 edge and so far it runs smooth. Havent noticed anything at it has almost 100,000 km
1. 100,000km = 62,137 miles (just barely out of Ford 60k powertrain warranty)
2. with the exception of police cars that frequently run at idle for long periods of time, symptoms on these engines don’t usually start until 100,000 - 150,000 miles
3. usually (not always) the first symptom tends to be liquid or dried coolant around the weep hole on the exterior of the water pump
@@WILEYsUnrequestedRamblings Thank you for answering. I use it primarily to go from suburbs to the city. From Panama Pacifico to Panama City a couple of times a week. Thanks to the lockdown and working from home there is not much movement these days. I will have a look when getting closer to that.
@@vsuarezp look behind your alternator after driving it. itll spit out coolant there
Would this apply to the 2014 3.5 explorer or have they revised the bearing issue?
Joel Schmitt YES
Where is your shop at your business info??
How much do you charge an hour?
No one wants this engine after 100k miles. For this water pump / chains setup /cam phasers
💯 agree.
Personally, this kinda shit is why I only buy Japanese:
Toyota
Mazda
Honda (except the Odyssey)
Nissan (manual trans only)
Isuzu
Subaru (as long as you’re prepared to do inevitable head gaskets every 100k)
You wonder why people buy foreign
The Japanese car line i work for put the water pump outside of the timing chain cover. That way if the pump leaks coolant doesnt mix with engine oil. Never heard of timing chains stretching also.
This is actually a Mazda motor. Ford uses the same engine.
@@eshmikity just out of curiosity which Mazdas have the 3.5 and 3.7?
man i didnt know chris farley was a mechanic
Most people don’t realize that this video was actually recorded in a van down by the river.
WILEY Motorsports SP Perfect response.
What about the Ford Explorer, do they have issues? Thank you.
Ohio grandma the newer explorer has the same engine.
The 2011-19 Explorers have major problems with multiple design flaws. The water pumps destroy the engines, carbon monoxide leaks in the cabin, PTUs failures on AWD models, and catastrophic EPAS steering rack failures.
@@atx-cvpi_99 literally…. my explorer has all these issues 😂😂
Does the new 3.3 have the internal water pump?
Yes. It too is a Duratec engine
NO BECAUSE THEY ARE RWD.
What idiot at Ford thought that was a good idea...Designed to fail and cost someone a shit load shortly past the end of the warranty...Or job creation for a ford tech replacing a 100.00 water pump but cost thousands in labor...Might as well do the timing chain while the cover is off....smfh.
Was designed for ford by Mazda Japan like others were doing. Gm, Honda Toyota Subaru.
Chrysler did it on their 2.7.
Is this still a problem on the 2018 Ford Taurus?
thanks!
Ford Motorcraft PW-580 part number is the new revised water pump. Maybe corrected, but not sure.
What year of Ford Edge does this apply to?
2007+
2007-18 WITH THE 3.5 OR 3.7 V6.
Ford had a lawsuit due to this and they wanted to charge me 4000$ once i told them about the lawsuit and these bad engines they lowered to 800$ lol
Is the the engine in the 2014 Ford Mustang V6 3.7?
This is the same engine, but the water pump on all RWD & 4WD engines (including the Mustang) has the water pump relocated to outside the timing cover. You will still have issues every 60k-150k with stretched timing chains (which require 8-12 labor hours of work to replace), but the engine will not be destroyed by coolant entering the oil pan.
Thank you for letting me know. My Mustang has codes P0017,12,14,16, and 24. I really hope it's just the VVTs instead of a stretched chain.
@@precisiont5188 P0016 is a stretched chain. The engine in this video was (shockingly) running perfectly fine during my in-laws’ trip to Arkansas at the time. They called me on the way back to ask about a Check Engine Light that had come on, and I wasn’t sure what it might be over the phone from Wisconsin, so I told them to go check it real quick at an AutoZone. P0016. Concerned about the severity of what that code meant, I told them to take it to a local #FuckFord dealership to have it checked out. Dealership said they couldn’t find anything wrong with it, and erased the code. To this day, I believe this was intentional; that they knew exactly what was wrong with it, but also knew that it was highly unlikely that people who were visiting from over 1000 miles away would be willing to stay in a hotel for nearly a week until it was fixed + be able to pay a dealership for something this expensive or be willing to trade it in for a new car while on vacation… so they erased the P0016, gave the owners false peace of mind that there was nothing wrong with it, and rolled it out the door for another shop to deal with… 🤣. Worked out well for me, because ended up I making $1500 in labor to replace the engine + all pads/rotors + front LCAs + front Sway Bar Links/bushings + rear Sway Bar Links/bushings + coolant reservoir + hoses.
Unfortunately, I ended up having to do another one of these damned things in March 2021 for my idiot sister’s ‘13 Esploder. I got stiffed on that job, which contributed to the end of my relationship with her. Hers didn’t have stretched chains yet, but the water pump pulley was juuust beginning to get loose at 105k.
I fucking hate this engine. The Duratec 3.0 that proceeded it was damned near bulletproof (except for oil pan & VC gasket leaks). If it weren’t for CAFE standards mandated by corrupt left-wing politicians, they’d probably still be using it to this day.
Wow, the stealership did the same to me. My car was actually under warranty when I had to tow my Mustang into the stealership. After bringing it in five times within the same week, they still acted like nothing is wrong. It took me, as someone who at the time didn't know much about vehicles, to find the problem. It is such a suspicious situation. I can tell you things they did and said to avoid honoring the warranty. Once I figured out the problem, they immediately started ignoring me. They wont return my calls, voicemails, etc. I have been respectful the whole time. Their behavior disgusts me. Now that my car is not under warranty it seems I will have to spend a lot on getting it fixed. I reported their behavior to the BBB and left negative reviews. Do you have any advice as how to expose them and make them do what's right and fix this issue?
According to some videos and websites, P0016 can also be defective VVT solenoids. Is this correct?
What about a P0012 code
P0012 indicates the ECM has determined that the intake camshaft timing for bank 1 is more retarded than what the ECM has commanded it to be (over-retarded cam timing condition could have occurred during either advancing or retarding phase)
Potential causes:
• VCT oil control valve is stuck in the open position
• Camshaft phaser is damaged and is stuck in the retarded position
• Oil flow problems to the VCT piston and cam phaser
Those Ford Nut sucks I got 2011Edge 2 years ago had 55,000 mile every time you fix something something else goes wrong. Never will I look at another Ford.
Buy Japanese:
1) Mazda (the non-Ford ones)
2) Honda (except the Odyssey)
3) Isuzu (the non-GM ones)
4) Toyota
Lincoln Town car is a bulletproof engines will last like a Toyota or longer
Fuck... just got an 04 taurus with this engine in it. Wish I saw this video before buying it.
You mean a 14 Toreass with this engine in it?
The 04 still had the Duratec 3.0L V6 which...
...although it leaks oil like a sieve + has a rear-mounted alternator that is a royal pain in the ass to replace + has a rear CAT which is a rusty-AF nightmare to deal with...
...is a remarkably durable/reliable well-designed engine with an externally-mounted water pump (on the driver-side of the engine near the battery, with its own separate belt & tensioner)
I’ve worked on at least 25 different vehicles with the Duratec 3.0, and most of them had 200,000 - 300,000 miles on em (the rest had between 100k - 200k). Aside from the problems I mentioned, that engine is a fantastic piece of machinery.
The 3.5/3.7 Cyclone engines are an entirely different design that replaced the 3.0 (largely for fuel economy & vehicle fit reasons).
It is the 3.5 & 3.7 engines (called “Cyclone” by #FuckFord) in a transverse configuration (i.e. FRONT-WHEEL DRIVE &/or ALL-WHEEL DRIVE) that are the flaming dumpster fire of poor design/engineering that I discuss in this video.
Durartec 3.0 Tauruses are a nightmare to work on. You are better off buying the 3.0 Vulcan Tauruses.
@@atx-cvpi_99 yeah, but they’re really not tho
I literally just finished an alternator job on an 04 Mazda MPV 3.0. That alternator’s kind of a bitch, but the rest of that engine is easy as hell, and they run FOR-EVER
I am generally not a fan of the 3.0 OHV Vulcans
@@WILEYsUnrequestedRamblings it might be a 14 but it was previously used as a police detective vehicle so it may be the newer duratech in an older model taurus, but I'm not too certain. Either way, thank you a ton for the info! So far its proven to be really reliable but I just hope I never have to do any work to it because from what I've seen it looks like a real pain to work on. Have a good one man and keep up the great work! Thanks for the very informative video!
mazda cx 9 also
...this engine looks like it was built to Fail Prematurely, with built in Obsolescence. 🤨 why on earth would Ford design an engine like this, or was it designed by a European company? They look like they will be disposable engine, because they'll be too Costly to repair when they fail.
I'll stick with my GM Gen-III 3.4L LA1 V6 iron block, which is Far Far Far easier to repair. And they made millions of them, so parts are super easy to get at any secondary parts supplier or salvage yard.
I hate GM & Chrysler far more than I hate Ford, but even I have to admit that after the defective intake manifold gaskets are replaced + every last Godforsaken ounce of the engine-killing dumpster fire DexCool garbage is eradicated from the cooling system…
…the 3.4 & 3.8 were the last reliable V6 engines made by Government Motors. While I have seen a few develop rod knocks &/or self-destruct (usually in spectacular fashion)…
…but every single time it was due to:
• owners letting LOF intervals go more than 10k with non-synthetic oil + garbage aftermarket filters (like Fram)
• forgetting to do LOFs at all (cuz teenage owners not following their dad’s instructions 🤣)
• running the engine w/ no oil cuz they never checked the oil level on an engine which damned near always leaks from the pan gasket + VC gaskets + front crank seal + intake manifold gaskets
They also frequently develop coolant leaks from:
• the coolant elbows (always replace with the metal aftermarket ones)
• the timing cover gasket + water pump gasket (these are both relatively easy to deal with, and should be done together)
Gender-neutral fluid pan gasket also usually seeps/leaks, but relatively easy to deal with.
Fuel level sensor / sending units tend to go bad &/or have bad wiring. Relatively easy to deal with thru the back seat/trunk in some models; pain in the ass on some other models which require dropping the tank.
Like all GM vehicles of the mid-90s - late 00s, the Evap Vent Solenoid ALWAYS fails, which causes a Check Engine Light. Easy as hell to replace.
My 3.7 is just over 140K and I havent had any issues yet, thankfully. Im replacing mine soon, which is gonna be a bitch. (2009 CX9)
check the weep hole for evidence of a leak (front side of the engine, behind the alternator)
I guarantee you’ll see dried coolant (or possibly wet coolant)
@@WILEYsUnrequestedRamblings I’ll check it, although my oil has never shown any signs of having coolant in it. I change it once about every 5K miles and have never noticed a milky color before. Ever since I found out about the issue every week or so I’ll check the dipstick and pull off the oil cap to visually inspect it. I’ll definitely check that out though.
so this is why Ford stopped making cars
Built ford tough. My add. They copied the Chrysler 2.7l engine disaster. No wonder edges are everywhere. Mix. Mot. Just like Chrysler. These 3.5 and 3.7l e vines in all there cars. So you 'll need a new car.
7thno you might be on to something there, it would be interesting to see who did design this engine, as engineers jump from manufacturer to manufacturer all the time.
Keyword family
10 minutes and the pump is still on the engine! Lol
RTV! HAHA
Time to go to toyota
NO.the Tundra removed transcooler for 2020. Only radiator cooler.
Benito Jr
soooooo, pre-‘19 Tundra then. 👍🏻
Horrible engineering by ford
Too much talking in between explaining the process.
Another junk form ford.......... built ford junk tough
Desert Fox
Chrysler & GM are MUCH MUCH worse, but Ford has gotten increasingly crappier with each passing year
I always tell my friends/customers:
“Unless you want to be seeing me all the time...
Do NOT buy American.
For maximum reliability & longevity, I recommend Japanese:
• Mazda
(except anything with a rotary engine)
• Honda / Acura
(except the Odyssey due to power sliding door issues & transmission failure issues)
• Toyota / Lexus / Scion
(except the FRS/GT86 due to Subaru-sourced boxer engine head gasket issues)
• Isuzu
(except any/all models partially or entirely sourced from GM: Ascender, I-Series, Hombre, etc)
If you can’t find or afford one of those:
• Nissan / Infiniti
(RWD auto or manual trans only; do NOT buy anything with a CVT trans under ANY circumstances)
• Subaru
(they make very good well-engineered products with an amazing safety record, but have a long history of head gasket issues due to use of boxer engine in all of their vehicles)
WILEY Motorsports SP i agreed with every thing you said i work on cars every day ... and cars getting worse every year with extra technology
WILEY Motorsports SP thank you for the insight. Contemplating between 2017 edge and 2019 CX9.
George Paniagua
That’s not even a contest.
The wife & I own 2 Mazdas:
• 07 Mazda3 2.0L iTouring (FN4A-EL trans)
• 09 Mazda5 2.3L Sport (FS5A-EL trans)
Wife’s late grandfather (passed in ‘13) was an electrical maintenance mechanic at the Ford plant in Avon Lake OH, so both Mazdas were purchased brand new (in Jul.07 & Dec.08) under Ford A-Plan/Mazda S-Plan employee pricing program.
I chose Mazdas for our family instead of Fords for good reason; I had worked on enough Fords (and other American vehicles) to know better than to ever own one.
Not including Tesla (which is a whole different animal), Ford is the best of the American automakers. Unfortunately, that is such a LOW bar for reliability, engineering, and build quality that it’s more of an insult than a compliment. The thing that makes Ford products unreliable, more expensive, and generally inferior to the foreign competition is the same thing that plagues the other 2 American automakers:
• unionized factory workforce (UAW)
• largely-unionized (UAW) supplier workforces
It’s an unfortunate but very true reality that the more pension & healthcare benefits a company pays to its workers, the lesser the quality of everything else in the product (reliability, assembly quality, engineering, parts quality, etc). I’ve been wrenching professionally for 13yrs now, and I’ve seen this truth bear itself out in every single vehicle I have ever worked on.
“The Associated Press reported that, for example, the average United Auto Workers member makes $29.78 per hour at GM, while Toyota pays its workers (most of whom are non-union) about $30 per hour.
However, when total benefits (including pensions and health care for workers, retirees and their spouses) is factored in, GM's total hourly labor costs is about $69, while Toyota's is about $48.”
www.cbsnews.com/news/the-true-price-of-auto-labor-costs/
Using logic & a bit of math, you can easily see why products from partially or fully non-unionized companies are:
• designed better
• engineered better
• built/assembled better
• made of better quality materials
• more reliable
• cheaper to buy
• cheaper (and easier) to repair/maintain
Unlike other maintenance/repair providers out there, I see it as my personal mission to do anything & everything within my abilities to help my family members/friends/neighbors/customers NOT need my services. I am in an extremely unique position to do this because, while my services are not cheap, my family’s income & finances are in a position where they do not in any way depend on income/compensation for my services; I am a “hobbyist”. I am extremely busy & well-compensated (usually with 2-5 jobs waiting at any given time), but this is a hobby.
To that end (putting people in a position to NOT need my services), I advise everyone I deal with to do whatever they can to get themselves in a appropriate financial position (as soon as they are able to do so) to trade-in/sell/junk their UAW-made American vehicles in favor of more reliable higher quality new or used vehicles from:
• Mazda
• Toyota / Lexus
• Honda / Acura (except Odyssey due to trans failure issues + expensive power sliding door system failures on ‘05⁺ models)
• Isuzu (non-GM models only)
• Nissan / Infiniti (RWD/4WD models only, avoid the FWD/AWD models with the infamous CVT transmissions failures at all costs)
• Subaru (be prepared for unavoidable boxer engine head gasket replacements every 100k miles, otherwise fantastic vehicles)
As for your specific situation (choosing between CX9 vs Edge):
If you are dead set on a CX9 (as opposed a CX5 or CX3 which are MUCH better), you should know that the unibody chassis of the CX9 is a Ford design (the Edge) carried over from the era when Ford still owned 33% of Mazda. It is not a true Mazda design, and even though the second generation ‘16⁺ models now come with Mazda’s SkyActiv 2.5L turbo + one of Mazda’s excellent fluid-based (non-dual-clutch) transmissions, it still drives, rides, and handles like the bulky/clunky 15yr-old Ford chassis that it is.
Unless you have a specific need for frequent use of 3 row seating, I would heavily advise the CX3 or the CX5 (both of which are based on the fantastic Mazda3 chassis)
WILEY Motorsports SP thank you for your feedback. It is greatly appreciated.
can you reengineer a fix for that coolant flow? we are always fixing idiot engineers screw ups
FWD / AWD vehicles: No
The only way to prevent the problem is to not purchase a vehicle with this setup. If it were possible to reengineer this set up with 3 primary timing chains + 2 secondary chains, or with an external electric-powered coolant pump, that would probably fix the issue. Unfortunately, none of these are possible with this setup.
RWD / 4WD vehicles:
#FuckFord knew they had a problem when they engineered this stupid thing, so they moved the water pump to an area on the outside of the timing cover, where it is driven by the serpentine belt. inside of the timing cover, there is a idler pulley in the place of where the water pump otherwise would be. While these vehicles do not suffer from the engine - destroying coolant problem, they do still have the other major issue with this design: timing chain stretch. This requires the timing chains to be replaced every 60K - 150K miles. Unlike the FWD/AWD versions of this engine, this does not require the engine + front subframe to be dropped out of the bottom of the vehicle, because there is more than enough room to remove the timing cover off of the front of the engine with everything still in the vehicle. Labor for this is 12.3 (primary + both secondary chains) or 11.3 (just the primary chain).
The long and short of it is that it doesn’t really matter which vehicle you have with the Cyclone 3.5 or 3.7, you are still going to have to pay a mechanic $1500-$2500 in labor + $500-$1000 in parts every 60k-150k miles to remove the timing cover and replace either the Tchains + idler or the Tchains + water pump. it is unavoidable.