Forget Multiverse! FFVII Rebirth's Ending Explained! (Theory)
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- Опубликовано: 4 окт 2024
- Forget alternate timelines! Dive into a breakdown of FFVII Rebirth's mind-bending ending: Did Aerith survive, and what does it mean for the future?
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It's also worth noting Biggs and Wedge "die" the same way they would have anyway, being shot and falling. Zack keeps facing off against Shinra in a "last stand" as well.
The planet gets what it wants.
Zack jumps away from the Shinra troops. Essentially denying that fate.
They keep doing a similar shot with the soldiers lined up each time. Planet's gunnin' for him but he keeps gettin' away. XD
@@LiracyonLeaguethe point still stands though
Yeah, it's like Final Destination for them
So sad man, our boy Zack will die by shinra soldiers no matter what he does
Other things that solidify this approach to the Ending. Whenever we play with Zack or anyone else in the Other Worlds, none of them have health bars, stats, or equipment, which to me is the developers letting you know, you are inside the lifestream and are effectively "Not living." After Sephiroth gets the black materia from Cloud and cuts the branch He and Aerith are hanging from they end up in one of the other worlds and go on a date. It's possible that that was NDE (Near Death Experience look into it, it's an actual thing that happens) which is how they possibly ended up there. The only hole with this theory is that Zack and Aerith have health and equipment when they fight along side you in the final boss, but that could just be for gameplay purposes because having a final boss that can't kill you wouldn't be great.
Also there's a lady at Cosmo Canyon that speaks just before you walk into the Class that Buganhagan send's Tifa to. She talks about a theory that when people die they don't immediately go to the life stream but they go to "Plane." She says qoute: "So.. my parents are no longer with us - here, that is - but I believe they are still out there, on another plane. Ive been reading a bunch of theories about this alternate world in the hope of going there someday. And over the course of my studies, I stumbled across a fascinating theory. It addressed the issue of what the lifestream is, arguing that spiritual energy is actually a manifestation of our knowledge and memories. Like I said, its a fascinating theory.. but its incomplete. What about our hopes and dreams? We remember those don't we? So, what if spiritual energy doesn't distinguish between our real, lived memories and the unrealized desires buried deep in our hearts? What if coming into contact with that energy allowed us to "peer through the looking glass," so to speak?"
Which is right in line with what you brought up about how Zack and Biggs remember their lives before ending up in the other world. It's not multiple timelines, and it's Not Multiverses but Lifestream shenanigans likely caused by Sephrioth or us when HE CAUSED US to defy fate at the end of Remake.
Damg, nice catch on the Cosmo Canyon quote!
hmm and Zack is all about "Embrace your dreams...."
I wouldn't put too much stock into not having health bars/equipment during gameplay because when you first play as Sephiroth in the Nibelheim flashback, he doesn't have a health bar, stats or equipment either.
@DrChoo Indeed. There's that as well. But to be fair, it's also in a memory sequence that is designed to convey how strong Sephiroth is not only to the Party hearing the story but to the player as well. In the other worlds, it's consistent that Zack doesn't have any Health stats or gear. This includes the beginning when Zack fights the Shinra troopers to get Aerith's body and when Cloud is pushed through the Life Stream and fights the Black Wispers in the Lost Forest.
I personally don’t think the forgotten city happened because of the fall of Cloud and Aerith from the Temple of the Ancient ending. It doesn’t make sense to carry a hurt Cloud to the biggest fight while concussed at best or passed out at worst. Perhaps, it’s a NDE (glad someone know about this subject) or premonition of what will happen. The Sephiroth forms aren’t supposed to happen like it did compared to the original game. Also, the Little Bronco lost it wings, but somehow while fighting Jenova and Sephiroth, the plane is on a hill and it has wings. No way Cid did that on his own, while he and Vincent did little in this game. Even if Vincent beast mode pulled it, there’s no wings to put on the plane. Cloud could be dreaming like the Haunted House at the Golden Saucer and interact with the other dream world or multiverse. Or, it’s more SOLDIERS degradation activities.
Also, the world isn’t like the original FF7. Temple of the Ancient is in the south near fort condor in the og FF7 separated from the northern sleeping forest and bone village before it. Rufus Shinra returned to a completed Midgar after the Temple of the Ancient incident. No Sector 7 gone. Maybe, both the clock in the Temple and Sephiroth’s remake actions affected everything. But, we aren’t in the original game geographically.
My thought is the first time we play as Zack is actually the ending of the original FF7 game. The black materia (meteor) was casted and hit Midgar, while the Lifestream and white materia (holy) resisted the meteor. There’s no one in the group able to do “weather warfare” like the reporter (propagandist) said in the beginning. This explains why the whole Midgar is destroyed.
Marlene wasn't harrased by whispers so she gets to keep the knowledge. Aerith says in Rebirth that the whispers took the memories from her, and that's also why her white materia became transparent. Also, I think they do have a plan. I seriously doubt they'd yolo THIS story, we are just not seeing the clear picture YET -we're literally halfway into the story. It's not fair to the writers to make that kind of statement when you don't have all the pieces. Biggs and Wedge dying had so much sense, they're showing us that we CAN'T fight fate. In that moment with Biggs Zack was supposed to "learn the lesson" and give into his fate, but he said nope. It's not a loose end at all -nor is it anticlimatic if it serves its purpose, not everything needs shock value. Seems to me like you didn't understand stuff and then accused the writers of not having a plan (yes I'm triggered cause I'm a professional writer and readers like this piss me off so much)
I appreciate you for thinking about what the Game ACTUALLY talks about and shows you and not terms and verbiage the game never uses. Yes it could be Timelines and Multiverses but as you showed, there's so much evidence that suggests that it's not timelines and it's not multiverses but a severely fractured Lifestream.
1-) Terrier Zack has Aerith Ribbon;
2) Aerith + Cloud wake up in Interlude, Aerith still has her ribbon. Yes, Stamp is different anyways but it matters for the worlds = lifestream theory.
Question now is, when did these two worlds split or were they never the same?
It is all happening in Cloud’s imagination… while he’s in Mideel.
It’s foreshadowing for a build up for when he’s Mako poisened and battleng with mental disorder…
We just see it trough his eyes…
Zack is Cloud, as always was in his mind… And he’s fighting to wake while denying the fatality that Aerith is clearly dead, too.
Ence why Sephiroth keeps always looking for her to kill her. But Zack always fight so that vision could never be seen by Cloud.
Ence why Marlene says that Asrith cannot awake… or he would have to bring her to ‘His’ reality…
Zack finds young soldier Cloud… finds Aertith and we see a reminiscence of her death with the Materia falling…
The flowers outside represent his mental health… they get better… or they get worse…
Zack “carries” Cloud… Cloud is on the wheelshare, in the background… as he was “asleep”… but as all these scene appears on his head.
I've been bingewatching these FF7 theories for some time and I'm loving every single moment of this! Please keep these theories coming!
We definitely plan to, just need Adam to find some time.
Seriously, was anyone else traumatized by the chicken side quest in Gongaga?
That’s around the point where I really started hating this game.
Yeah Adam mentioned it a few times, his least favorite part of the game
@@TheDigitalDecade Really? Hating the game because the owner of the chicken decided to have it for dinner? Sound like very close to reality to me..
@@magedgaming That is very close to reality, don't you think?
9:10 there's a short story in "On the way to a smile" about Lifestream white (white whispers) and Lifestream black (black whispers) that could bring a little more clarity to what's going on with them. You can skim it in about 5 mins. Great video :)
It's been so long since I read that that it honestly slipped my mind and now I feel so foolish. 😅
@@magedgaming eh, don't be homie. There's a lot in the compilation and I still enjoyed your take.
3 mins in, quick point...
Zack and Biggs can be from the same timeline but "plucked" from it at different points and placed into the same 'verse.
My only issue here is that Zack appears to have been removed from the OG timeline right when he was supposed to die, yet somehow returns to Midgar with cloud after cloud and the gang failed to escape Midgar.
That certainly possible. It's not really clear when these bubble worlds "begin" and don't necessarily have to be happening parallel to the main timeline. It could be that Zack and Biggs are being pulled from two points but meeting "somewhere in the middle".
You may have answered your own question actually. If we're assuming time moves in parallel and Zack arrived after the storm, yeah, that doesn't really add up. BUT if time isn't relative, it wouldn't really matter because from Zack's perspective the storm could have happened the day after he was attacked. As Cloud wasn't shown as one of the survivors being carted off, from Zack's perspective Cloud never joined Avalanche (although from Biggs perspective he had, but Biggs never sees comatose Cloud).
There are two life streams, The White whispers are associated with the normal life stream and can purify the negative life stream which is the life stream corrupted by sephiroth through negativity. We also learn that negativity is how the GI created the black metria.
I want to add to your theory a bit, but maybe the planet knows that sephiroth is trying to change his fate so is creating these alternate realities to try and stop him. They had a reality in which sephiroth was defeated ie the OG FF7, however he still managed to come back in Advent Children, etc so now they’re changing Zack and Biggs fate to see if that would have any bearing on the outcome, when it determines the reality won’t help maybe it collapses it or maybe sephiroth is taking control of the whispers and collapsing those realities himself? I think Stamp is more akin to a Mandela effect, yes he’s used to convey to the player that we’re in a different timeline, but if a person in that timeline were to turn around and say “hey wasn’t stamp a beagle” someone else would just be like “nah he’s always been a pug”, if that makes sense
So yeah I think you’re right they all spawn from the same timeline, even though Stamp is a beagle in the OG timeline
Beagle Stamp is behind Zack in the tunnel before he goes to see Cloud. It's blink and you miss it but it opens a whole set of questions.
I like the planet trying every angle idea. Really interesting to think the planet is just putting Zack in every situation thinking "Could this work"? And he just ends up in front of a firing squad over and over.
[Edit:] I was mistaken. It's a different angle but if you freeze frame it is, in fact, Terrier Stamp.
@@magedgaming wow I did not catch that! I have to go back and look I never saw Zack with beagle stamp…. That does raise a TON of interesting questions.
For what we know, the story of the remakes is already all written.
What I think they are trying to do with all the "bubble planes" is explaining scenes we kind of accepted as they were in the OG.
For example:
We kinda accepted the black materia in the og, but let's be real: why the planet, that created weapons to defend itself, would create a crystallization of mako capable of erasing it? Now we have the Gi Nattak and Sephiroth explaining the black materia for us.
In the OG we never really know what Holy actually does. It is still not clear in the remakes, but I think we will find the answer in part 3.
Then, for what I recall, there are 3 scenes (1 is bonus) in the og that we have no explanation for:
a)the encounter between Cloud and Aerith before she dies and we see her teleporting through the trees,
b)Tifa helping Cloud recostructing his ego in the lifestream (in the og we can see the actual rainbow rift of Rebirth),
c)Aerith ghost when you return to the church in Midgar. It is not a glitch: the scene was intentional.
In a way or the other, the different bubble planes, paired with the fact we know for AC that both Aerith and Seph are still """"alive""" ( in the sense that they can still be actng forces in the plot), explains a lot of what's happening.
Then, at leat for me, the different state of characters across the planes is all dependant on how they get the interactions with the whispers. Barret, Red, Aerith, Tifa and company are in a coma in the different bubbles because in the main one they have fought the whispers. I think that Zack was kinda "chosen" by the planet/aerith.
Biggs and Wedge are accidents just to prove the point.
Cloud is so intertwined between the planes imhe now sees the rift even in the original plane.
It'll be real interesting to see how they tie it all up in the third entry? Do you think it's going to lead back into AC/DoC or do you think they're going to go in a new direction?
@@magedgaming I think it's going to lead to Ac and Dirge direction. The importance given to Zach is also a result of CC existing imo.
Lifestream black/ lifestream white, negative lifestream and geostigma, those are the missing pieces that will tie up the story for the third game, Aerith was obviously being summoned by Minerva and therefor had to die at the alter so that her prayers can work to purify the lifestream from the negative lifestream corruption. These themes will almost certainly be brought up in the third game.
I mean it's pretty close. The Whispers are the same Whispers from Remake but they have been split into functions. Black Whispers (Whispers of Death) and White Whispers (Whispers of Life). They were Gray in Remake because they controlled the fate of life and death. At the end of Remake when Aerith says "This sky, I don't like it" (patched because the original localization made that point obscure) it's because she can see the rift in the sky for the world of Rebirth. The world we played in is dead and that explains some geographical continuity issues in Nibelheim during the end scene. When Cloud saved Aerith a new world was created, but the other way around. Saving Aerith dooms that timeline and is therefore consumed by Sephiroth fragmenting the Lifestream again giving us the world where she dies because this is a timeline that survives because Aerith can join the Lifestream to cast Holy. Only Cloud sees the rift at the end because he can see this world is doomed to end too. When he hands over the Black Materia (Again might I add we already did it once) the rift will open and here comes Meteor. FF7R's got a direction... you just have to stop thinking in conventional terms.
On the point of the last line change, I always feel that any theory (including this one) that's drawn from the English localization requires a huge grain of salt. Really wish I could understand/read the original Japanese.
In terms of Aerith and Red losing their memory, and the Holy Materia. It makes a lot of sense that the Whispers stripped Aerith and Red of their memory, and the reason the Holy materia is Clear is because Materia is concentrated Memories of the Planet. Aerith and Red exclaim as much during a hotel scene if you spy on their conversation. (I think it's in Costa Del Sol) The Whispers also stripped Holy of it's Memories, which was seemingly part of Sephiroths plan, although Cloud and Aerith seemed to smuggle a Holy Materia into Rebirth's timeline. Sephiroth remarks that is poor form, and that it's not supposed to be there. Not sure what the implications of that are just yet. It's clearly a back and forth between Aerith and Sephiroth as if they are playing a proverbial chess match. We just don't have the context we need to explain it all yet for certain. I'm also on the side that they're making some of this Turkey up as they go along, but I also think there is some planning involved. When you get into the nitty gritty of game design and storytelling even, and there are a lot of people involved as is the case with FFVII Remake and Rebirth a lot of ideas get thrown around and things get muddy. Add in this complicated multiple world plot point and there is no way they can plan for every eventuality. I think the goal is just to explore some of these What-If scenarios in context with similar events to the OG. After-all a lot of us WANT to see that. We want to see Aerith live, and what that could mean. The shippers who are in only camp Tifa or whatever might not want that, but a good segment of the players of the original game do. It makes it kind of fun rather than having a 1to1 copy of the events in the original. It refreshes things without having to lose what made it all great in 97.
I think everything in game can be explained, I just feel that as is it seems more like the rules are (or have yet to be) established after things happen rather than before. In a single game I think that could work really well but across three separate entries with long gaps in between it's hard to shake the feeling that adjustments are being made between each entry.
Mostly my concern comes from things like what Kitase said in his PushSquare interview about how he wanted to make more dramatic changes but Nomura and Hamaguchi wanted to stick closer to the original. Differences of vision like that can be hard to resolve and I worry they may be purposefully leaving things vague to keep multiple interpretations valid.
@@magedgaming Not only is it across three different games, but it's also across decades of work at this point too. I mostly agree with you in the sense that there is some purposeful vagueness injected into these metaphysical endings / whisper segments. There is a lot of risk associated with that too because in the third game they have to come up with some kind of satisfying conclusion that ties most of it together. I personally am not expecting absolute perfection, but they can't end part 3 on another metaphysical cliffhanger either.
Some people are going to think it's a cop-out regardless, but I really think they're going to let the player choose how this goes in part3. (And yeah that's like saying just throw everything at the wall and something will stick with someone. It's an understandable feeling to have) Sephiroth at the end of Remake introduces this 7 seconds until the end of the world idea, and seems to give Cloud the say in what he's going to do. The developers also indicated that the OG was the bad ending to the game, and this is reflected in the idea that A) Casting Holy ended humanity in the world, and Midgar is reclaimed by wildlife. B) In Advent Children Cloud is clearly STILL coping with Sephiroth and the loss of Aerith. His relationship with Tifa isn't that good (he's sleeping in Aerith's church, and he's emotionally distant from her). He's also distant from the party of friends who have all moved on. Tifa even says as much on the Shera when they're watching him fight Sephy by himself., Lastly C) If there is a bad ending it implies there are other endings, and that's compounded by this multiple world VIA choice idea that is brought up in Remake and Rebirth. I'm almost betting that's how all this wraps up and is covered though....it is a "screw it let the player decide" ordeal so we don't have to reconcile all these differing developer ideas, and try to plan things out to a T through multiple decades. Just my 2 cents on your comment here.
@@magedgamingkitase is pro Aerith SUPER hard. So any chance he has to push that narrative, he is going to take it. No wonder Nomura tries to real him in. Lmao, Kitase, make us proud.
Cloud killed Aerith while being controlled by Sephiroth/Jenova, both in OG and Rebirth. No one else saw Sephiroth, and only Cloud, Aerith and Zack even fight him. That was the point of all the "puppet" talk, and why Aerith told Cloud not to blame himself. That's why pressing L2+R2 didn't do anything when Cloud held his sword above Aerith. Sephiroth's clones wouldn't have been able to get to the Forbidden City for him to bodyswap.
I've never heard the theory that Cloud killed Aerith in OG.
So, interesting theory, but I have a couple issues with it. For one thing, we DID see Elmyra and Marlene again after the plate fell, in fact we saw them twice. Right after it fell, Cloud tells Barret he thinks Marlene is okay, Aerith had gone to get her out, so they run to Aerith's house to see if she is there and she is there safe and asleep. Elmyra even yells at Barret for coming in so loudly b/c Marlene is sleeping lol Barret rushes upstairs quietly to see her and Cloud tells Elmyra how Shinra took Aerith and we are gonna save her, which she says no don't make it worse, so we go back to see if there's anything we can do back at what's left of Sector 7. After that we come back to Elmyra's house yet again and Cloud is adamant about going to get Aerith and Elmyra agrees, while Marlene scolds Barret for leaving again so soon. So they are both fine, leaving us to question why ppl like them and Kyrie and Jonny even show up here if they aren't dead but Biggs and Zack are, and if Biggs and Zack are dead, why don't we also see Jessie and Wedge since we know they died too?
As for the bubble worlds, say the planet can and does do that. Okay, to what end? It's not showing the person in question why the decision they wanted to make was a bad one (i.e. go after Biggs, get shot up, if he even did we don't know, we didn't see how that turned out) before collapsing it again. I just don't know what purpose this would serve. And, if this is how the planet handles different decisions, then why did the whispers keep doing things in Remake to keep the team from doing things they hadn't done before? Why wouldn't those moments just split like we are speculating they do in Rebirth? The only argument I can think of was we were dealing with different whispers (grey ones) back then so maybe that has something to do with it, or this isn't exactly what's going on.
Zack really seems to think Aerith saved him and it is whispers, though I can't tell if they are grey or white, that we see when the bullet gets blow just far enough over to miss Zack's forehead, and same with Biggs, we see whispers then he's waking up in a bed. We also see in the background during his last stand at the end of Remake, a boatload of whispers in the sky circling around Midgar, presumably where we are fighting the Harbingers, and this is reaching through time and space, like this swirl of whispers might be happening at every moment in time at that same spot where we are fighting them b/c Zack's last stand was at least a week I'd say prior to that point in the game (in Remake, in OG like a month passes between Tifa finding Cloud and the reactor bombing) and yet as we are fighting them, there are whispers appearing over Midgar a week earlier when Zack was about to die. It also seems once we beat the harbingers, worlds split right then as well b/c Zack's Terrier world has just experienced a devastating "tornado" that destroyed a lot of the Shinra building and 2 other sectors, and left Avalanche injured (or killed, but I think injured given we see Red awake for a moment and Aerith is unconscious but not dead and the others weren't fully covered with sheets like ya do with corpses) while Cloud seems to have escaped (they say an ex-SOLDIER with a buster sword is still unaccounted for on the highway in a news broadcast, they are talking about Cloud). It wasn't a tornado, it was our fight, but ppl don't know that, so they are saying tornado, and clearly it didn't go down this way in the Beagle world b/c we head on to Kalm (though Midgar is still torn up b/c in Kalm we hear about the "tornado" on the radio).
This could also explain Biggs being alive and knowing our version of Cloud while Jessie and Wedge still died (why the whispers saved him though just to get merced later I do not know), or perhaps they were both plucked from different worlds and dropped in Terrier world further ahead in time that is still a version of what Beagle world would have been like if our guys hadn't escaped the highway battle and the harbinger battle. Also, it's worth noting that this Aerith's white materia is still fully powered and not empty, so even though she's unconscious, she would still have some of her future memories if this is an off shoot of our Beagle Aerith world.
Speaking of whispers, it was my understanding when we saw Tifa go through the Lifestream that the black whispers are whispers that have been corrupted by Sephiroth, while the white whispers are trying to stop him along with the weapons. We see the weapons and white whispers fight with each other while Tifa is down there, and the black whispers all swirl around Sephiroth. They don't seem to work in tandem like white create worlds then when it's time black collapses them. They seem to be at odds. I don't know if no more grey whispers since we defeated the harbingers at the end of Remake, or what, but the black definitely seem to be working with Sephiroth and the white against him (either through OG Aerith or the planet).
Finally, we know why Marlene still has the future visions she got when Aerith touched her at 7th Heaven, it's b/c she hasn't been touched by the whispers. Aerith explains to Tifa in the Kalm Inn (when Tifa asks her where Cloud was the last 5 yrs b/c she knows Aerith knows things, and Aerith admits she did but she doesn't anymore) that what ever she knew is gone now. Then at the under Junon Inn we over hear Aerith talking to Red about how she knows she knew something important but now it's like it's just out of reach and he says the same, and she also shows him her materia is also now clear. One can pc together that the white materia likely lost it's power b/c of the whispers touching her too much too b/c materia is in part memories from the planet. The whisper memory issue was touched on in Remake when Aerith at one point says every time they touch her it's like she loses a part of herself (her memories from OG that she started with). By the end of Remake, they've touched her (and Red, who I believe didn't start with future memories, but got some when he was growling at us and Aerith touched his head and he calmed, she showed him visions to show they were friends, it looks just like when she touched Marlene) so much she's basically just OG Aerith again.
Yeah, the Marlene and Elmyra thing were a brain fart on my part but mostly I was going through my thought process while playing through the game. Definitely alive though and as you and a lot of people have pointed out Marlene wasn't at the crossroads of fate and didn't have her memories erased like Aerith and Red.
As for why the planet spared Biggs and Wedge only to have them die basically the same way (shot/fall) a few days later does seem odd. With Wedge we know it was the whispers pushing him out of Shinra tower so that somewhat tracks but Biggs is a bit of a mystery. It's also worth noting Zack ends up facing a bunch of Shinra troops both when he storms Shinra Tower and when he goes after Biggs, so there's a parallel there too.
As for why the planet would create these bubble worlds, it could be a safety mechanism of some kind. Kinda like how when a single celled organism splits, if one daughter cell dies the DNA is not lost, so in a way the "life" of the initial cell is preserved. In the same way, if some calamity befalls the planet, there's another version of the world out there that carries on. Given there's only so much mako, however, it needs to cull these worlds so it can reacquire it.
As for why did the whispers "stop" you in remake. It could be that they weren't actually stopping you but were splitting the world at those points. However, we can only perceive one world at a time. It's kinda like how Schoedinger's cat can exist as both alive and dead but we can only perceive one of those realities. In this case it's our perception committing to one reality, the planet's desired course. It didn't matter that other realities existed in Remake because we'd never see them. However, upon defeating fate, those realities couldn't be swept away so easily and could begin impacting each other, which is why, narratively, they decided to address them after that point. That's just my theory though.
Interesting!
What about the portal that the team crossed on the expressway in Remake ?
It seems pretty much important. When you see how the Devs want us to remember it right when we get to the Forgotten Capital. The CG scene there is almost identical to the one in Remake before the final fight against Sephiroth. Our characters have the same lines. Then we get Barret referencing the Expressway but this time only Cloud crosses it.
Last time who crossed it the world were splitting and in one of this word the party died (or not?)
The other major stuff, I think, is the point of view of Tifa when she sees two reality on top of each other. Aerith with blood and no blood while Barret only sees the bloody version. Tifa bathed in the Mako earlier in the game. It's important because she is one of the "reliable character"
Biggs dies in a "timeline" with a different Stamp that the one who see at the Shinra Tower with Zack. Meaning, I guess, if Zack goes to help him, Biggs dies. But what happen to him if Zack goes to the Shinra Tower ? lool
It's obvious that they tricked us a lot with the different Zack scenes. Especially the last one in front of the church.
It's also worth noting when Zack is in the tunnel on a motorcycle the Beagle Stamp behind him, which should put him in the same "timeline" as the main game. It could be a case of as the worlds "collapse" into each other they're interweaving or the Stamps themselves could be unreliable "anchors" in terms of which world we're looking at.
Tifa's an interesting point. We've seen her twice now fully submerge (OG and Rebirth) in mako and come out without any poisoning when others have been far worse off for far less. Also, the weapon went out of it's way to protect/save her. Clearly the planet has a plan with her.
On the “reverse shroedinger’s cat” you mentioned, the applicable scientific theory is called “pilot wave theory” and in layman’s terms the Planet dreams of potential futures, then after seeing where they lead it chooses the optimal path and the rest of the “probability wave” dreams collapse into one solid reality
Similarly, if you have played Chrono Cross… the whole game takes place in two of these dream-bubble realities that only collapse into the canon Worldline after these two dreams resolve a path through time that creates the real timeline/worldline. I suspect that the peeps at Square Enix are reusing their old multiversal playbook, even if they don’t plan on showing us a story within an infinite multiverse
Makes sense. Yoshinori Kitase was a director on both Chrono Trigger and FFVIIR.
And now you got me going down the rabbit hole of PBS videos on Pilot Wave Theory XD.
You mentioned the one glaring point that all the theories are ignoring. Zack and Biggs cannot know Cloud in the way that they each know him because it doesn't make any sense. No one has reconciled this issue with their theory. It also makes no sense why Marlene is with Elmyra when Marlene wound up with Elmyra because of Post-Zack death events. I dont think the player is meant to handwave that away. The fact that the "timelines" dont reconcile is relevant and your idea at least addresses that major issue.
I’m not sure I’m on board with all of that but I enjoyed the video.
I am just hoping that my boy Cloud finally gets a happy ending with Aerith. Somehow, I don’t think it will happen though.
Honestly, if everything pans out to keep fate the same just as it was in the OG ff7 the. I will be pretty frustrated. It would mean all of the remake series was essentially a red herring.
Also, I just subscribed, thanks for a great (and clean) video.
Thanks for the watch, we appreciate it. We're still trying to get Adam to make another one.
I'm on the opposite end of the spectrum myself but understand people wanting something new. Thanks for the subscribe!
Black and white whispers are actually a thing going on from 20 years.
Black and white lifestream, Sephiroth corroding it, Aerith purify it.
Sephiroth absorbed the whispers at the end of Remake thanks to us, Aerith was able to preserve others, and the fight inside the lifestream pretty much sums it up.
That would certainly help the "this is a post AC Sephiroth" theory. We see the white whispers before Aerith dies so if they're hers and not the Planets she'd need to already be in the lifestream.
@@magedgaming I’m all with the “Sephiroth from AC” theory and Aerith too ofc.
The all plot of this story wouldn’t make sense if it wasn’t like that.
Sephiroth is changing everything since the 1st chapter of remake, this causing the whispers to appear (Sephiroth delays Cloud meeting Aerith, so the whispers hold her in the square so she can meet Cloud).
So lifestream black and white are part of the story, Sephiroth wants to corrupt it and wants the reunion of worlds so he can create even more sorrow and despair to corrupt the lifestream and conquer it.
Aerith is fighting him from with in the life-stream, if u notice she’s the one who’s saving Zack and making him travel through worlds every time he seems doomed, cause she knows he’s key for planet’s survival.
Even Sephiroth when he founds him says “No, not you”, he knows Zack is a disturbance.
This all remake/sequel is a fight between Sephiroth and Aerith.
Great theory! Also keep in mind, black and white makes gray. The gray whispers split into black and white after Remake, that was caused by the "death" of the Arbiter of Fate
The whispers were definitely Black and White imo, representing Lifestream White & Lifestream Black. Lifestream Black is Jenova infecting the lifestream, which will be the cause of geostigma in AC, and Lifestream White represents Areith's will.
This happens in the novel On The Way To A Smile, between OG and AC. Of course this is only supposed to happen once Areith dies and Sephiroth dies, but since the lifestream has time shenanigans in Remake we are getting this story at the "same time" for the Trilogy.
That's my guess ne way
@@ekoms108 I think there are normal white and black whispers that just perform their functions, but then the black whispers with the purple face orbs seem to be under sephiroth's control. Clearly there's a battle of wills going on within the planet with the whispers. I forgot that the whispers were gray before, thanks for pointing that out, it's kind of crazy how pivotal the final boss fight in part 1 was and yet they've managed to bury it in the subtext.
Good video! Subscribed.
I’ve never attached to the dream or sequel theory even though all theory crafting is fun.
I think this whole project is a Swan song.
If you look at OG and then Advent Children it can be head scratching in terms of context.
So to me it makes sense if SE reimagines the OG in a way that gives somewhat logical context to Advent Children and the greater FF7 lore.
If that makes sense!
That does make sense, thanks for the clarification.
As for the impact of Aerith's death being diluted because of the alternate realities that cloud was experiencing, they showed it only happening in Cloud's mind, the rest did not. When aerith didn't get on the plane, her goodbye felt final. She won't be able to directly interact with cloud anymore, since the afterlife has already put its foot down telling aerith and audience, that's enough, you've broken too many rules already. That really saddened me. It was the end of aerith in the living world. A new start in the next but the separation from the living world and the people she loved and who loved her is, complete. Only cloud might be hallucinating and that's just sad too. Still Zack, Marlene, sephiroth etc are all proving that something is brewing... But 3 years is a lot of waiting
It'll be interesting to see what they do with Aerith in part 3. I'm sure despite her being in the life stream we'll still be seeing a fair bit of her. Question is in what capacity?
From what I've seen before, it's never explained in the game, but in the book "on the way to a smile" it explains about 2 different lifestreams. Lifestream White and Lifestream black. Need to do more reading into it and get hold of that book but I imagine that the black and white whispers are connected to the lifestream black and lifestream white.
Good catch! I'd totally forgotten about that. You might be on to something, I'll need to re-read.
You make an excellent point.
However, I think the battle here is between Aerith and Sephiroth and the controlling of destiny. To me, the planet’s control over fate is OVER; this is the entire message so far in remake and rebirth.
Clearly, Sephiroth wants to break away from the planet’s grasp of fate. This is why he has manipulated the party into destroying the arbiters of fate in Remake.
However, Aerith is either attempting to regain control of fate, or simply interfering in Sephiroth plans.
The planet no longer has the means to defend itself against Sephiroth, which means fate is dead and doesn’t exist anymore.
I think there's some plausibility in your idea but IMO, I think the life stream doesn't normally 'allow' these other streams. Its kind of like the 'Sacred Timeline' in Loki season 1 only the whispers are like the TSA if they prevented the branching timelines from existing in the first place as opposed to just deleting the branching universes from when they were created. BUT since Cloud and the gang defeated 'fate' now other 'world's are being created. Not only that but I think the whispers, who no longer have a master, are now being controlled either by the Planet or by Sephiorth and both are trying to enact their own version of 'fate' for their own purposes. I think the planet is saving people in some timelines while Sephiorth may be ensuring that they die/their world is destroyed. He even says he harvesting 'fear and hatred' from said worlds.
Yeah, the "pruning" they do in Loki to maintain the sacred timeline is a good example. Still need to finish season 2.
12:00 (not exact timing) Yup. This is how I was interpreting it, too. The planet is basically choosing what it wants. And Sephiroth is trying to remove the planets options. Aerith has the ability to move into these bubble options. and people who are more connected to the life stream (Near death perhaps?) can see the breaking of the bubble world in the sky.
Part 3 can't come fast enough.
Those aren’t Marlene’s memories, as she wasn’t present for any of the things she described. She’s somehow accessing information from other realities. More like dreams or premonitions.
By "memories" I mean "memories of the future" (or perhaps more accurately "visions of the future"), which she gained after touching Aerith in Remake. Same thing happened to Red XIII.
My theory is that its a dream. But not a dream as you sleep, but a experience!.
I think its a natural simulation.
The planet creates simulations based on memories!!!
As in it's all a simulation or occuring at some point during the OG?
@magedgaming not sure.
But i look at it like the matrix, for example.
The promiseand us the sorce.
The wispers are agents.
The one us aerith
Sephiroth is smith
And the lifestream is the code.
If you view it this way, it starts to make a bit of sense, except no one is strapped in a machine. But souls experiencing realities, the planet would be considered the mainframe, and the GI are trying to escape the simulation by destrying it!
@magedgaming i think this simulation has been running from the start.
Or it started running when the world ended in part one. In order to keep the planet alive.
I believe this because all realities exist till that point. So i think it just keeps replaying events over and over till a cure is found. At least that's how i see it.
@magedgaming another possibility is that the cetra created the simulation using the planets energy as a hub for memories.
I think that's what the promised land actually is.
A place of extrame happines.
Until jenova infected the system! Aka a virus!!
what it looks for me is that there are spiritual worlds. its noted that in lifestream its where the dreams and hopes etc of the dead…(so yeah, the dead experience another outcomes of what could have happened.) But the question is if these events in the game are only spiritual too or something more, like a real material world? Also how this all effects each other and what can be accomplished?
Im still a believer that Remake and Rebirth are all happening in Clouds mind in the lifestream in Mideel. I think we will find out this is all Tifa repairing Clouds true memories back in Mideel. Like Cloud has been in the lifestream in Mideel the whole time. And we did see Marlene in Chapter 14 in Remake before the climb up.
Not gana lie! I kinda like that!
FFVIInception
The rift in the sky is also the exact same rift after Cloud and Tifa fell in the lifestream in the OG game.
After they walk through the light In Remake pursuing Sephiroth they made a different timeline from remake to rebirth . I’m In the mind that the party Zach sees dead in the opening to rebirth actually are the Remake party because Biggs survived in the timeline and he meets up with Zach later . Red and Aerith lose their memories because those characters are different from remake in rebirth. She even says when they go through we will be changing ourselves .
This would be an interesting story, but what's the point of destroying the Hatbingers of Fate in Remake?
I think white whispers = lifestream white and black whispers = lifestream black. Gray whispers is the neutral sustaining lifestream.
It's been so long since I read 'On the Way to a Smile'. I should really go back and re-read.
What I like most about this theory is that it explains what happens to our "game over" instances!!
It was the planet's will that we'd eventually beat this fight after failing several times!! 😂
Unintentional 4th wall break.
Honestly I think people are way over thinking this. The game kind of gives us the answer. I think this is a war of fate. The Black whispers are trying to tell the story determined by the actions of humanity which will Ultimately be the destruction of the planet. Then you have a group of whispers that are apposed to the idea of fate and pre written destiny and are setting up a scenario where certain humans are able to influence and break fate and rewrite destiny. Sephiroth is purely an instrument of the planet , who seems to be evil but in reality is just driven to act on behalf of the planet where life and fate are both disposable. Have you ever noticed when you defeat Sephiroth his response is always very casual, like he either let it happen or knew the outcome. I don't think Sephiroth is worried about getting the outcome he wants, i also dont think he is evil in the true sense of the word. He just turned into a physical form of Jenova. I don't think fate is a natural part of the planet but one that has Manifested and taken physical form as a result of the actions of humans.
Great video , one of the most Grounded theories out there. Everyine is reaching for multiverse and timelines, but let's be honest that just a really obvious and easy explanation
well Sephiroth is really hard to read. With the 7 seconds scene i tought he is probably not that bad guy and wanted actually that Cloud joins his fight against the real threat when the Moment comes. Like he was giving him hints and that he wants to let Cloud decide if the Future will be saved or not. (He is kind of obsessed with Cloud but also doesnt really care of the outcome and is more interested in what cloud decides)
I would have liked this Redemption Theory where Sephiroth helps Cloud because he now knows what Jenova really is. (And the Jenova Body which is his „mother“ is actually a Cetra who saved the Planet long time ago but ended up poisened with Jenova Cells) But it doesnt seem that square enix is going this route.
This is pretty solid. I'll give a bit of info that I have and see where it goes. In the material ultimania, Sephiroth is in the edge of creation. Cloud finds that suddenly it hurts to move until he is touched. That time has stopped here, and is being held this way purposefully. Here Sephiroth informs Cloud that there are 7 seconds before the world ends. It appears that from here Sephiroth is manipulating the planet's memories as memory is such an important factor.. altering a person's memory alters reality for that one person, while altering the memory of a world... could create the dynamic we see where it splits off: Did this happen or did that?
In the original game retranslated, in the lifestream, Tifa says that memories of the mind can be manipulated, changed, altered to create new realities, but a memory of the heart is real. (Isn't it weird that in OG, Holy appears to be engaged inside a heart leading up to the final battles)...
There is the black portal and white portal. In the sky there is the black lifestream and the white one.
What's interesting is Biggs and Zack aren't the only ones displaced in time. Motorball is caked in rust as if it had been there for a while. The tornados are from meteor. The area hitnwasnt hit in remake, that was 4 and 5 and mostly 5. The shinra building was tossed by Sephiroth at the end of remake. It's like a local time compression, mako isn't f9und in the other ends, but the mako is overflowing in the reactors of Cloud's side of things.
When asked about the conflicting sides of Nobelheim between CC and the anime, Nomura asked "did anything really change?"
At this point I'm running with the cat doctrine of an alzheimer's patient.
Interesting. So you're suggesting it's kind of like an extreme version of the Mandela effect?
That our "truth" is based on memory, but "memory" to a human is an intangible thing and can be verified as right or wrong based on physical evidence. However, on a planetary scale, "memory" is far less abstract. For example, fossil records could be seen as a form of planetary "memory". As such, if you could get a planet to "misremember" you wouldn't simply be warping an abstract concept, but reality itself.
Am I understanding this correctly?
@@magedgaming Effectively, it is noteworthy that Aeris in ff7 OG tells us that the planet has a consciousness and a memory. From Japanese this is far more specific in that the planet is conscious and aware, and has memories.
Would altering memories not be within the same realm of creating alternate copies of itself for every human choice, and far more plausible within the realm of possibility that it's simply a memory exploring the other option? In either flower maiden or lifestream white, Aerith discovers that going back and forth through time (including what hasn't yet happened) is like going up or down. Meaning reality is already imprinted...as likely little more than a memory on a planetary scale.
What is the point of having Biggs alive only to grant Biggs wish? Aerith wanted to do things while she is alive because she knows her fate. I do remember that Sephiroth did regret killing Aerith so why did he kill her again?
Yeah, the "sparing Biggs and Wedge just to kill them effectively the same way (shot / fall from great height)" thing is a bit odd.
As for why Sephiroth kills Aerith while knowing her being in the lifestream is going to stop meteor? Hard to say. Maybe he's going to try to seal her away "alive" in one of the bubble worlds rather than allowing her to freely flow through the lifestream. Maybe he needs things to play out the same way to get all the mako into one place when meteor falls and Aerith being alive with Holy would prevent that. Maybe both, which could explain why the holy materia in the "real" world is now clear; he's trying to seal it away in one of the other worlds so it can't be summoned in this one.
We're going to have to wait until part 3 to find out!
@@magedgaming That's going to be the longest 2 years of waiting. Also, I noticed something else... When Cloud is "sleeping" in that wheelchair, he's wearing 2 shoulder pads, just like what Zack is wearing. But Aerith wakes him up, he's only wearing one. The same one he wears throughout the game. So, is this another universe/timeline? And Cloud ( with 2 pads ) is still "sleeping" somewhere?
That's a possibility. There's at least 5 Stamps (beagle, terrier, chihuahua, pug, corgi), so that means a miniumum of 5 worlds, and it'd make sense the ones in which Zack is up and about (such as when waiting outside the church) has Cloud still in a wheelchair.
These whispers are not the same as the remake. Those were the true arbiters of fate, while now they are souls controlled by Sephiroth or planet/ Aerith
Do you think at this point Aerith is working towards the same goal the planet originally intended or do you think she's gunning for a different outcome?
@@magedgaming I personally think her goal aligns with that of the planet, to protect it and fight back Sephiroth. She also has one "selfish" goal too, which is to ensure Cloud gets his mental state back, but this kinda aligns with purging the planet of Jenova.
What I think is these are sort of fragments, memories, dreams through lifestream.. Aerith also mentioned that it's kind of like her dream but it's real too as Zack mention - "It's all way too real." I believe that these realities are somewhat sculpted by Omni Aerith through sort of like a 'dream' via lifestream where different versions of Stamps were shown.
These events couldn't have happened at the same time that's why the idea of timeline sucks.
As many of these fragments can be seen before she "enters the lifestream" do you think the Omni-Aerith a post AC Aerith come back or is the Aerith we see more aware than she's letting on?
I like the theory! Yet I'd bet there must be two major motifs (deeper) implemented in any way to the whole "two or more worlds" stuff, without knowing how yet.
Firstly: Memories. FF VII has so much references to memories and Remake/Rebirth underlined it with the lifestream and materia as memories that it MUST be a central motif for this big plot driving element of "multiple worlds". I could imagine that the lifestream contains not only memories of the real past but also memories of not-happened pasts as well as memories of the future (and never going to happen future). So what we see as another dimension is not really a dimension per se, but something like a memory of a never happened future. Zack died, he is not living in another dimension, but the lifestream's memories are shown to us as a alternative dimension. Yet, it's just a visualization of the planet's desire to intervene the plans of Sephiroth and Jenova. It's the power of the lifestream that e.g. creates a new holy materia (which is as we know nothing more than memories of the lifestream) to give it to the heroes. So maybe there is no other dimension. It's just like... well, a metaphor, also interacting with our group, a way for the planet to communicate and to intervene.
Secondly: The Cetra and the Gi. It's suspicious how much focus is put on both of them. The Cetra, formerly known as something like the pure white, a high culture that defended the planet. The Gi now portrayed as the ones who want to destroy the planet, shown as almost demonish-like creatures living in caves, damned to haunt the planet. But yet, there are a lot of hints that the Cetra weren't as good as one thought as well as you can understand the motifs of the Gi more during the game. I believe there is a lot of twist coming up in the third part, namely a connection between the white Whisperers and the Cetra as well as the black Whisperers and the Gi as haunting memories of the planet who still fight each other and try to influence how the planet's story develops. And maybe the white Whisperers aren't as much on our group's and the planet's side as we think right now.
Interesting idea. I suppose in a way it's similar to how our physical bodies exist in the material plane while our hopes/dreams/memories only exist within our mind. Yet, even so, these "realities" we create in our mind can still have an impact on our physical selves and even guide our actions.
Yeah, the new Gi lore is interesting but also complicates things that were once simple. It's said at the temple of the ancients that Jenova can't die because, like the Gi, she is incompatible with the lifestream. So is Sephiroth a means to an end? Some kind of half-human (ie: compatible with the lifestream) trojan horse to allow Jenova to slip inside? And if so, was this planned by Jenova or just a happy coincidence? Was she waiting for someone like Hojo to come along and allow her to bring her plan to fruition?
I'm also curious if they're maintaining that humans are the descendents of cetra that gave up their nomadic ways and settled down. It certainly explained a lot in the OG as to why cetra and humans looked identical and could procreate. It also explains why Aerith is "the last cetra" and not "a half cetra" if what separates humans and cetra is a spiritual connection to the planet, not that they're seperate species.
The game literally tells you there are multiple worlds/universes. You see Zack and Cloud both create new timelines. The multiple versions of Stamp is the proof of this.
You can find terrier stamps (Zack stamp) in gold saucer and junon so I'm not sure if this means anything or some of the designers got lost in the sauce and made a mistake because if we see different stamps in the party world that just invalidates it's usefulness to the multiverse
Marlene and Elmyra are okay after the plate falls. We literally go there immediately after. And we do multiple side quests in Sector 5 Slums as well. The reason Marlene keeps her memories is because she doesn’t get those memories drained by the whispers as Aerith and Red describe during Rebirth.
I like your theory though. Quantum is an interesting way of thinking about it. But I don’t think that is the case with these games.
Yeah, had a bit of a brain fart there.
this is essentially the same as my theory. i will add, in the same way that there was a harbinger of fate, i believe there will be an associated corollary for the white whispers which is a harbinger of chaos or freedom, upon which, its destruction will trigger the reunion of worlds.
my current theory is that the destruction of the harbinger of fate caused a many worlds interpretation of quantum mechanics. similar to your theory, this essentially creates an infinite branching of worlds and variants of the characters. there is a concept called “quantum immortality” also known as quantum suicide which is at play. basically, if there are a set of potential states after which a being is alive or dead, the memories from the lifestream of the iteration that died can’t return to the lifestream, because there are still living versions of that person in other worlds, so the other world, living versions inherit those experiences and memories.
zach’s branching moment was his last stand against the shinra troops, so he inherited all the memories from his dead variants who died in that coin flip. similarly, biggs branching moment was climbing the tower to prevent sector 7 falling, so he inherits the memories up until that point.
what makes sephiroth special is that he entered the lifestream when cloud and him had their joust at the reactor. sephiroth managed to gain this knowledge, and absorb information about the mechanics of fate and time, and knows how critical both aerith and cloud are to his demise. this is why in each world sephiroth is intent on killing aerith, and why he had already ascended to bizarro sephiroth in another world.
the consequence of this, is that the more aerith’s that die, the more aerith’s that are lowered into the lifestream, and allow the living ones to acquire the knowledge of the planet, how events play out with sephiroth and the party in the plethora of worlds.
the next part of the story will deal with two main issues, grief of the loss of aerith in the canonical world, and cloud entering the lifestream and suffering from psychosis and a crisis of identity.
because cloud has already started repairing his memories of zach, and had the encounter fighting alongside him at the edge of creation, i think instead, his identity crisis in the lifestream will instead be focused on him experiencing the consciousness of cloud’s across the many worlds, and he will struggle with derealisation and depersonalisation.
aerith is both alive and dead, but dead in the canonical world of the main party. cloud has memories of both events transpiring so isn’t grieving like the others. this will be a major conflict.
i think we will see a collapse of worlds into one singular canonical pathway after defeating the white harbinger, at which point there then become stakes and finality to deaths, and i think this omnipotent ascended version of aerith will sacrifice herself and die later in the story, in order to save the world from sephiroth, and this death will have the weight and impact people were expecting emotionally from the end of rebirth.
just in terms of who the harbinger of freedom might be. i have a theory that it could be an ascended version of aerith herself. the rainbow motif and white whispers appear to be guided by her whim. so in terms of her death, my gut tells me that sephiroth will kill aerith in order to collapse the worlds into a singular pathway. i think if this plays out, the clear version of holy that cloud is carrying will be critical in this sequence. in the same way cloud hands sephiroth the black material and he is revived from the lifestream to cause the end of the world, cloud could hand ascended aerith holy as she enters the lifestream indefinitely enabling her to call upon the strength of the planet. it would create a really poetic inversion of events, and give her death a lot more meaning in the story, whilst having a critical plot function.
Chaos plays into Dirge of Cerberus so that's always a possibility.
Thanks!!! Heres my theory and would like to hear what you think..
Based on quantum physics - i think Aerith and Sepiroth are 4th dimension beings.
Just like how in 3 dimension world, we can percieve multiple 2D planes, but 2-dimensional beings cannot perceive the 3D world.. (like 2D pages form a 3D book)
Aerith and Sepiroth is capable of perceiving and also transcending multiple planes (space time continuun) in the 3D world, because they are 4D beings
Aerith literally exists in different space time, and can perceive both the future and the past at the same time. From Aerith 4D perspective, she is one entity, not separated in different worlds, but from the 3D perspective - she is like a separate being in the so called different "timelines".
So in the main game 3 dimensional world, Aerith is dead, but from the 4D perspective - she is alive and never dies.
Cloud may have grown to now perceives a little of the 4D world, which is why he seems to perceive two realities. And to Aerith, both realities exists simultaneously and are not separated from each other ( just like pages of a book, belongs to the same book)
And for Biggs and Zack - they died in the 3D world, and moved on to another space time continuum where they are alive (like moving on to another page of a book) . To them, they are incapable of perceiving their own deaths and think they are and alive.
In spiritual terms - no soul ever dies but is always transcending. Aerith and the white shadows want to keep expanding, while Sephiroth and the dark shadows is the opposite force aiming for convergence.
That's the impression I get too, though something seems up with Zack.
Biggs could easily be explained as you said. He felt like he was going to die and in Beagle world did but in Pug world passed out and somehow got down before the plate fell.
With Zack though we see a whisper change the bullet trajectory, so it seems to be more purposeful than a matter of perception. As to why, at this point is anyone's guess. It could be that his mind needs to make sense of things and a curving bullet is the best it can do, but I wouldn't put money on it being as simple as that.
But yeah, completely agree that Aerith and Sephiroth seem to have "ascended" to a point where they view themselves as a singular whole through worlds as opposed to multiple variations across worlds.
I really like the Aerith = life (growth/expansion) while Sephiroth = death (convergence/collapse) parallel.
So far I have not seen anyone really address the WHITE feather that falls from the sky in the opening scene with Zak and Cloud arriving at Midgar
Theoretically that'd be Angeal but seeing as he hasn't been mentioned elsewhere in the remake trilogy it's really hard to say.
@@magedgaming that's precisely the thing that is baffling.
Also, I think it is the only scene where a white feather appears?
Nice theory, but I think you got some things kinda of wrong.
1) Marlene knows the stuff because she didn’t cross into “destiny cross roads” in the remake
2) the whispers where grey in the remake, the whites and blacks where created after “destiny” was “defeated”
3) Zack choices, the game shows 3 destinations. The 3rd one is the choice that Zack makes of going to the church to think, instead of going to Midgard (either for to save Biggs or to confront Hojo). By the way, on the tunnel to Midgard, you can see a dog printed in the wall. Check it out.
4) on the remake Aerith knows what is happening, just like Sephiroth, she lost her “memory” of events yet to come alongside Red 13
Also, I disagree that Nomura and Nojima don’t know what they are doing. With all the little choices and details on the game, to me is clear that they know what they are doing and the sort of ideas they are toying around.
Marlene keeping the memories because she wasn't there at the crossroads makes sense.
Honestly I'd been thinking Zack being at the church was post Shinra Tower or the reactor but that being a third outcome (making a choice between Cloud, Biggs, OR Aerith) makes a lot of sense too.
@@magedgaming I also have a theory about the empty white material that Clouds carries in the end.
The empty White Materia :
Cloud good memories will get locked into it, since that materia carries memories. The main timeline Cloud will be completely dominated by Jenova. He will die.
The Cloud that is in a comatose, alongside Aerith, will be our new Cloud. That’s the two of them that the Lifestream worked to make undetectable by not having any sign of life/personality.
Current timeline Cloud has nothing in him, besides a creation of his own mind. And for more than once Sephiroth asks cloud to lend him his strength… To defy destiny. Maybe that’s how Sephiroth/Jenova will get a hold of him once his discovers the fate of main timeline Aerith?
Also, that’s why Sephiroth calls him Hollow, he still isn’t Cloud. That’s why Aerith tries to “find him”.
Edit, also the death of the current main timeline Cloud is a good way to reset all his stats for the 3rd game. 😂
Great work, as usual!
Thanks for the support.
I beat the game about a week ago and i have been sitting on this thought for a while now. The game start and end seem to me to be running parallel to each other thematically. We start off with Cloud telling his version of events of what happened to him in nibelheim there is even a point when he is going to try to get to his mother and you have to that crawling around thing with the triggers, we never see the how the entire scene play out to full and we know that cloud has blocked out a portion of what has happened and rewrote it in his memories. Now when we get to the scene when cloud is chasing after Aerith in the forest you are doing the same trigger actions that you did trying to save his mother. In this universe Cloud has failed to save his mother and Aerith from being killed by Sephiroth. So now when you get to the end when you see Clouds sword deflect the masamune you see the rainbow light that I believe is when Cloud is creating a false memory of what is happening. Then you start to see the scene of the death scene flickering back and forth, sephiroth starts talking about the confluence of worlds which i think is the merging in cloud memories with the false memories. So once again Cloud is blocking out another persons death. So his mind is one plane of existence while his body is in the real one. Which is why i think he can see the lifestream tear in the sky at the end while no one else can. So I think that in Part 3 when Cloud is getting his real memories back we are gonna see the full scene how it really happens and cloud is going to have to come to terms with Aerith death.
The "worlds" being different mindstates within Cloud rather than actual worlds is certainly an interesting concept. So you think it's Jenova behind the alternate worlds rather than the planet?
yeah i think the white whispers were created when they defeated fate at the end of Remake, your theory is a lot more like mine, it means this isn't a different timeline, this is the original timeline, but somehow Jenova has more information from the lifestream and learned the lifestream can be expanded to give more power if fate is tested/defeated but didn't know the lifestream would create whispers which is why she had sephiroth trick the party into defeating the black whispers, and once they were defeated he took control of the black whispers, and then the planet/lifestream created white whispers after the first bubble world was created, it seems we only see new worlds when something we know happens is changed, like how at the temple of the ancients, instead of what normally happens they ended up falling and a new side world was created, when cloud stopped Sephiroth from killing Aerith, a new world was created, and since any decision Zack makes, which he was never supposed to make, ends up making a new world, and it looked like in each of his new worlds he ended up facing an army of soldiers like he was supposed to have done originally, so his existence is causing more worlds than any other characters existence, this could also mean a biggs is still alive in the world Zack was sent back to
After Remake I was very team "This is a Post AC Sephiroth", but yeah, after Rebirth I'm thinking this is a full on reboot of the OG timeline.
I honestly hadn't considered Biggs may still be alive in the worlds where Zack didn't go to the reactor. That's a good point!
@@magedgaming Honestly I think each world we saw zack have an army against him those world ended, but the world he was in when sephiroth sent him to the void, that may be where he went back to at the end, that or he went to the world he was in at the start of the game which would mean biggs would still be there headed to the reactor, but idk if those were separate worlds or the same world, what I got out of it was him going to shinra to save cloud or the reactor to save biggs were worlds that ended, and the Zack sitting on the steps was either the one we have been watching the whole game or another world where he couldnt make up his mind
I think Clouds dying and returning to the Lifestream. Remake ended with Sephiroth saying "Seven seconds until the end, time enough for you perhaps." Cloud is just headed towards the promised land. But Cloud being the final bastion of Jenova Cells, Jenova is trying to wear his spirit like a mask to enter the lifestream and Aerith is wide to it. Hints why she said "It's about saving you! And the world..." Like the world's just an afterthought as it has already been saved. But this is about either locking Cloud out or him fighting to remove Jenova/Sephiroth from himself. If he succeeds he will enter the promised land where the reunion with old friends happens. Also where he believes at the end of the original he can see her again. But Jenova trying to destroy cloud and break him down, is using his memories against him, and trying to make him believe that there are multiple timelines, and if cloud believes he can't save Aerith then Jenova wins. Sephiroth/Jenova is hunting down all possibilities in clouds mind and taking all his hope from him, then she can enter the lifestream and infect the planet.
Just my thoughts
At which point do you think this might be happening? This at the end if his life post AC or at some point during the OG such as in Mideel?
@@magedgaming I think this is post Dirge of Cerberus, as that took place two years after AC I believe? It's been 20 years almost since I played it. But I believe Cloud could have lived a long good life, and maybe even outlived everyone except Red. I believe Cloud is returning to the Lifestream aka died and at some point the planet is trying to help him rid Jenova Cells aka Sephiroth at the edge of creation. Cloud first meets Sephiroth where he asks Cloud to help him defy destiny. When he doesn't join him and instead Omnislash blocks every attack Cloud throws at him. Then after reliving the timeline generally as we remember it he is reliving parts of his life but Jenova is trying to manipulate those memories and kill clouds spirit so she can manipulate her way into the lifestream because Aerith would let her guard down as Jenova would be impersonating a.loved one to attack the planet. So after enough of those memories are altered Clouds pulled back to present aka the edge of creation as he's the missing link for Aerith s Promised Land, where everyone survives happily and it's a real reunion for cloud who reunited with Zack Aerith, heck like I said he may have outlived them all, and everyone except Red may be waiting. A true reunion and an end to the series that gives both a remake and continuation of the timeline. Something for the old fans and new alike. I've always gone into Rebirth with the understanding that it's a sequel to the original. I really feel that Zack and Aerith popping in at the end is the lifestream fighting to save cloud. As I mentioned Aerith said it's about Saving Cloud, and the world. But only added the world like an after thought. Because in reality the original timeline only used Mako Showers on Soldier never injecting them with Jenova Cells. That was a separate Hojo experiment and Zack rejected the cells in the original timeline and Cloud got Mako Poisoned and injected with Jenova Cells and both left with lesser scientist as Hojo deemed them failed experiments. It wasn't until crisis core that we started learning of S and G type cells and Soldiers all being injected. So the original timeline Cloud at the end of DoC I believe is the only one left with Jenova Cells in him. Aerith only cured the Geostigma but she can't remove the Cells and so that leads us back to the edge of creation the final prayer of wanting to save her friends. It wraps the series up beautifully and a bit Disney but that's just my theory. I think it is one of the only ways they could logically go with it outside the multiverse theory where eventually cloud pulls a Loki and pushes all timelines into one. Also Disney lol literally. Just my thoughts. What do you think?
I think Marlene is Cetra and people just don't realize it. There's not a good explanation for how she knows so much about the future like Aerith does. She also can sense Aerith, Barrett, etc and does so at several points in the game. She senses Aerith "Is it her?!" in Advent Children as well. I think Dyne's wife Eleanor was Cetra. We know VERY little about her.
It's possible. In the OG Sephiroth said humans were cetra that had given up the nomadic lifestyle. Aerith is also often referred to as "the last cetra" rather than a "half cetra" (compared to Terra being half esper in VI).
If that's the case, genetically there's no difference between cetra and humans and what differentiates them must be spiritual, and if that's true, it's concievable humans with strong connections to the planet could "revert" to being cetra.
It's incredibly far fetched, but five years so I'd have said the same about "destroying" the embodiment of fate and just one year ago about the black materia being a Gi superweapon to end themselves.
which people? in the game or in real life? Well Aerith has definitely sensed it. And the scenes especially in Rebirth showed and teased even more that Marlene is cetra descendant too.
Got a sub from me, love this interpretation and just how thought out the explanation was!
Much appreciated! Glad you enjoyed it.
It goes deeper then this and you probably will never understand or see whats coming or what they have showed us already.
You very much saw Elmyra and Marlene after the plate fell in Remake. Elmyra lived in a different sector and would have been unaffected by the plate collapse.
Correct, I meant we haven't seen them since the immediate aftermath. Since climbing Shina Tower we skipped town haven't had contact with them.
That all said, 99.999% certain they're alive.
The reason why marlene has her memories of the future but aerith and red dont is because red and aerith have both been in contact with the whispers. Aerith said that every time the whispers touch her she loses a part of herself (her memories).
A lot of people are mentioning this and it makes a lot of sense.
na na man nomura of square enix said it there is multiverse timelines or worlds I've said it before ill say it again square enix knows what's happening and know what's going down these are just theory crating its a good thing square enix is keeping all us gamers and fanatics guessing they know what's going down this was deliberately done to keep us guessing
good theory, this multi world stuff just makes me wish they were more grounded with their storytelling. I’m down for changes and making it a sequel, but this convoluted mess is hell. And waiting 4 more years for it to “maybe” pay off is also hell.
Full disclosure, one of my biggest fears is they wrap everything up and don't really explain it because "the how doesn't really matter in the end."
Seperate world memory
Thanks for checking out the video, I'll pass this comment along to Adam
Aerith and red lost the future knowlege because of interaction with the whispers. Marlene might be the only one that still knows future events.
I've seen a lot of people point this out and yeah, it makes sense.
Green : original gaia’s lifestream, white lifestream : Aerith’s will
Black lifestream : Sephiroth’s will
Sephiroth’s wants to reunite all of them and absorb them
But he needs Cloud to succumb to his will
And he needs Cloud to succumb to his negative emotions ; killing Aerith
But in OG Tifa guides Cloud in his darkness and find himself - like Aerith wants near the ending
Hence why Sephiroth wants Cloud to doubt Tifa
I like your take on the timelines but I do think all of the reality exists or competing to exist
I dont like the multiple timelines & butterfly effect theory
I view them as multiple servers from a main serves and Sephi wants to sync them or eventually only one can exist
My guess is with each world taking up part of the lifestream, him wanting to synch all the realities is so when meteor hits all the mako is in one place.
If planet can dictate fate and its hurting from mako.... Why not just have a timeline with no mako?
Tbh rebirth story is stupid. It is too meta to recommend to any new players who are not ff7 fans. How can you get invested into a story that's a multiverse spinoff which means there are no stakes cause anyone can teleport in and out of multiverses.
Also:
Message of original ff7: do the right thing. You can fix a broken world.
Message of remakes: Defy fate just because. and buy more of our content plz!
Wouldn't a world without mako be doomed to die? Life comes from mako.
@@magedgaming So why would a multiversally conscious and powerful planet allow mako extraction in the first place.
I truly hope the writers don't choose that path cause it opens a whole new can of worms.
Fair enough. We're already a fair few cans deep.
I'm not sure how you conclude that if Zack survives, Cloud never becomes a mercenary. It was the intention of Zack that they would be mercs as they defuncted from Shinra. That Cloud becomes a merc despite Zack's death doesn't mean he wouldn't if Zack had survived. This isn't a mutually exclusive event.
Also her name is "Kyrie" (Kir-ee-eh) not "Kairi."
I just started the video and haven’t gotten to this part yet… but at face value, it does make sense. Cloud doesn’t have the confidence in himself to go the solo merc route UNTIL……. (Spoilers below)
Zack dies and cloud takes over his persona….
Although, if Zack lives, he still could have led cloud to that lifestyle and cloud could have been his sidekick….
I’ll have to see how he presents this theory to see if it has merit or not.
@HomeDefender30 but Zack makes it a point to tell Cloud their plan is to become mercenaries when Cloud gets better. Even in Rebirth. This means that had Zack survived, that was the plan. It's arguable that Cloud's incentive to do so stems from his persona change and lifestream influence, sure. But it's also as arguable that it was predestined to be a merc by the planet/lifestream no matter what. I don't think it's incidental to the grand scheme beyond putting Cloud where he belongs and in the position to be superhuman in the otherwise human world. Which kinda just circles back to the point that the particular event doesn't actually dictate whether or not Cloud becomes a merc. It's a small nitpick but if it were a base that mattered it could be big.
The point was Zack knows Cloud as comatose (not a mercenary yet) but Biggs knows Avalance Cloud. Even aftet meeting Biggs, Zack goes back to Elmyra's and Cloud is there unconcious. They clearly knew two different versions of Cloud.
Yeah, I say "may-koh" rather than "mah-koh" several times too. 😅
one is the material world and the others are spiritual worlds created in life stream. they already noted that in the lifestream are all the wishes, dreams and futures etc which the dead wanted to happen. so i think its kind of the afterlife where the dead experience other outcomes
That's what I was thinking at first but we see people who are still alive there. You thinking they could be shadows for the sake of the dead and not actual iterations of the living?
@@magedgaming i would say that the people which are alive in the material world are created out of their memories-or time does not exist in the lifestream. (Everything past, present, future exist here at the same time) For example if Marlene dies in old age there are still worlds where the people only known her as little girl, therefore the memories create some kind of copy in the state in which Time event everything is stated. so its like the lifestream uses backups depending of the world state
They literally pronounce Kyrie in the game why do you have to make it different?
Brain fart. Talking faster than I'm thinking. I pronounce mako wrong several times too. 😅
Wow, excellent theory.
Thanks!
I think you’re right.
Thanks for the support.
Didn’t you see Marlene after the plate collapsed. I thought cloud Barret and tifa went to aeriths house.
We did, but once they go topside we never see her again. They skipped town after Shinra Tower and while it's possible Barret contacted her somehow it's never shown in Rebirth.
The point was less "this is what I think happened" and more me walking through my thought process when I initially considered the "other" world could be some kind of limbo and what the implications would have been.
As is, 99.999% sure she's alive and well.
@@magedgaming We see her right before the last cgi cutscene at the end, though.
Sepheroth is weakening the lifestream by allowing the creation of so many worlds.. and not closing them. If you are right about the dark whispers.
Honestly hadn't thought of that but good point. I was kinda looking more towards his endgame where he condenses all lifestream into one reality so he can get it all rather than the planet squirreling away some in a different world.
Assess the white whispers bro lol
Close but not close enough
Why not close enough?
Its just jenova
That'd be the Occam's razor answer, yeah. XD
Everything you’re describing is terrible on a storytelling level, as well as being practical in fan retention for the games. Creating a convoluted mess, then expecting fans to be invested enough to wait for a conclusion in the next game is incredibly shortsighted and presumptuous.
Nothing about this is satisfying, or fun to speculate on. It’s actually pretty obnoxious and annoying. People want grounded stories in a fantasy world, not science fiction shoe horned into an established franchise. FF7 was about life and death, corporate greed and the planet, not this. I’m not even a purist from 1997, and I’m personally gonna sit the next game out because frankly, I don’t care what they do anymore.
I think you are in the minority with your opinion (that you just presented purely as facts, written as if you represent everyone, which is 'actually pretty obnoxious and annoying' itself).
You say 'terrible on a storytelling level' ~ I think its just very Japanese style/very anime, which is exactly what Square Enix is best at and why they are so successful. They tried going in other directions and saw games flop, sales drop, and ended up selling off the rights to all their more western style IP.
So I think your idea of terrible storytelling may just be non-westernized storytelling, as there are many many extremely successful and beloved Japanese movies, shows, comic books, and video games with layered, often open to interpretation, and complicated (or 'convoluted mess' to put it your way) storytelling. Its not satisfying, or fun to speculate on FOR YOU. Many many others around the world absolutely love it though.
If its so simple, how about you head off, assemble a team, make a trilogy of games over a decade which retains the majority of its players, simultaneously retelling a story everyone knows while introducing enough intrigue and mystery to keep people interested and keep discussions going for the full decade, and then get back to everyone and show us how you did it eh?
Yup, just another smooth brain who is mad it's not following their headcanon. Can't understand that not liking or not understanding something doesn't mean it's bad writing... move along scrub. You'll be back for the conclusion lol
😂 wrong and wrong.
Would you like to explain why?
Yah please explain