Why I haven't bought an automatic telescope yet.
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- Опубликовано: 2 май 2024
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I can understand why someone with many thousands of dollars already invested in astrophotography wouldn’t be interested in something like the Seestar. I’m coming from the opposite direction. I never thought I would EVER do astrophotography - it was too expensive, too complicated, too bulky, just totally impractical for me to even consider. But I bought a Seestar about three months ago and I’m loving it and it has rekindled my lifelong interest in astronomy. Sure it has limitations compared to your big rig, but that’s something that I wouldn’t even have contemplated having. But now I can enjoy taking my own images and learning postprocessing. It is hugely expanding the accessibility of astronomy and astrophotography, and that has to be a good thing.
That is good to hear Phil, and that is exactly where these systems come into their own because not everybody wants to spend time on software and hardware setups. It is good this camera got you back into the hobby, the more people looking up and knowing space is there, I mean really knowing it is there, the better, this is a positive thing. I think what Dylan is saying is that this ease of use could also be possible for larger consumer grade and pro mounts with properly placed motors and some software control.
Can’t beat a Seestar for public outreach, showing the neighbors sights the have never seen before, and getting young kids engaged. Coupled with a 12.9” iPad Pro it’s a powerful, portable wonder.
So one thing I think people are overlooking. I own a 16" Dob, and I love it. Amazing views over the past decade. But this puny little SeeStar pushes a better experience than that for 1/10th the cost and more detail. Go figure. I think this opens a whole new market between the big dobs and the core astrophotographer crowd. It really is a new way to observe. And they use older, below Midland gear really to pull it off! 😂
@@PatrickManley I have a 10" dob myself (StellaLyra 10"). The views on her are very nice. But to get real nice naked eye live viewing I'd have to haul her on my car loaded with pillows and blanket and drive into a dark site far from home.
And with Welsh weather, its cloudy and rain every 30 mins or 1 hr. Very random. And you cannot really see DSO's the way you can see them on processed photo's.
But now in addition to my DOB and Refractor.
I bought the Seestar.
With the Seestar, you can pop it down and you are ready to shoot after 1-2 mins of set up.
Proper Astrophotographers seems to hate it.
But I think this is the future.
Such a small thing, loaded with ZWO's different tech for astrophotography.
They made this small package able to do essentially do Electronically Assisted Astronomy/EAA.
And not only that it can do everything, even stacking it.
Although the image is decent for viewing, there can be too much Noise. But with a bit of Siril, GraXpert and pixinsight processing the Seestar images looks crazy good.
Not to mention the hardcore folks, already manage to turn the Seestar so that it can do Equatorial mode. Which essentially made it take even better images at higher exposures (downside is battery + storage 50gb max) Id like to try it sometime.
Thats if I wanna put glue on the Seestar's plastics.
Or do the other mod where you fool it so that it thinks its in the Northpole so its already aligned after mounting it on a starwatcher wedge and aim it approx. to the north star.
I have so far with the Welsh weather, manage to get an image and video of the sun, Moon, M106, M13 very easily. And its still mind boggling.
And in terms of Future.
The even better version of the Seestar is the Celestron Origin, same exact thing but bigger, better scope, better camera and upgradeable too.
Downside is, its $ 3,999
And at this rate, it can only get better, the more competition hopefully will drive down the prices.
@@PatrickManley I picked up an 8" dob for my kid. Should have got him a Seestar instead, lmao!
I've been an amateur astronomer for over fifty years. My passion is a planetary, lunar and solar astrophotography with a Celestron 14" Edge HD and a dedicated Coronado solar telescope. I also have a Vaonis Vespera smart telescope I use for quick, deep space images. My Vespera is fun and easy to use. That's the big attraction to smart telescopes--ease of use with reasonable results. People are so busy they don't have time, money or interest to pursue traditional amateur astronomy but nearly everyone has a fascination with the night sky. So a revolution is taking place. Lots of people are coming into this new hybrid hobby. This flood of money will allow companies to grow and expand and they will be offering larger apertures with automated features like you suggest. This is a good thing. After all, lets do real science all night long instead of playing with wires, polar alignment, plate solving, etc. Just think what new mysteries dedicated amateurs will uncover in the night sky.
Public outreach is where this scope shines. At outreach parties we get many people asking if they can take a picture of XYZ with their cellphone. This causes longer lineups at the scope as the user fiddles with holding it over the eyepiece and trying to get proper focus. Even the cellphone adapter you buy take time as every cellphone has a different camera location. With the Seestar, I can upload the photos to cloud storage and share a QR code with the public so they can view and download the photo anytime.
Myself I do visual with a 9.25 Evo SCT, AP with a WO Zenithstar73 but still bought a Seestar. Guess which scope gets used the most often, that's right the Seestar! I can have it up and running in 5 minutes and if the clouds roll in, it can be shut down and carried back indoors with one hand. There is a place for these smart telescopes.
Dylan, I have to disagree with you this time. I tried to embrace the hobby with a “proper setup”. Living in an area with bad weather, the Pacific NW of USA and lots of trees blocking my view, it was frustrating. I sold all my stuff and just downloaded other people’s data. I bought a Seestar and it has re-ignited my interest in the hobby. I can now setup in 5 minutes and get decent data to process. I use free processing tools and get images that give me great satisfaction. Is it state of the art - no, is it going to withstand the scrutiny of the “expert imagers”, probably not. Can I upgrade it - no. But it meets the needs of a casual imager whose budget cannot get close to what you spend. Still an avid viewer of your channel!
Exactly my thoughts, give us a motorised polar alignment EQ mount and then we are talking!
Avalon M-Zero has the automated polar alignment option
I have the S50 and it's main attraction is that it fits in my suitcase when I travel anywhere...and really not much else. I take control of images by saving them on a SSD and usiing PixInsight when I get home. It will almost certainly be with me in a forthcoming trip to Byron Bay. 👍 I would love to pack the big gear but sadly there is no way that can happen.
I agree!
I too recently picked up a Dwarf for half price because of the flood the eclipse caused in the market. I too only got this for our family camping trips and will be using the raw files with PixInsight. I agree with you Dylan on downgrading the hobby and never had interest in replacing my tools for the craft.
Ha 😉!
No "you were watching Starstuff and WE ARE ALL GOING TO DIE"...at the end?
LOL
Don't worry, everything's meaningless
Maybe Dylan's sense or irony was challenged recently. See his recent video to understand.
The new strain-wave mounts could have been a perfect opportunity to build in motors for equatorial polar alignment.
It seems like a no-brainer that it will happen some day. When you run any of the automated polar alignment tools these days they tell you exactly what direction to make adjustments, so it would be easy to have them send messages to the mount, move, re-check - just like slewing to a target does.
In fact, a mount that has access to GPS, Compass, and electronic spirt-level (like apps on your phone) could do a really good job of polar aligning in the daytime, since it is simply 'raise to this angle, and rotate to point at the celestial pole (relative to the magnetic pole).
Exactly!
I downloaded a daytime polar alignment app, and tested it. It was 8 deg out in lateral, and 1/2 deg out vertical
@@BigBadLoneWolf The problem is the metal in the mount throws off the compass. I think for daytime alignment, a cool idea would be a mount which pulls location and time from a GPS satellite. Then levels the mount automatically using a tilt sensor. With the time and location you can figure out the celestial coordinates of the sun. And using a solar finder on a gimball, the mount can figure out its exact orientation.
The only problem would be clouds, but if it's cloudy why are you setting up your scope anyway :D
@@DylanODonnell and ultimately that's exactly what is like to happen over the next 5-10 years for astrophotographers, but the all in one small setups as "disposable" as they are, have a place for the unparalleled easy of use (there isn't even a single cable, its a box) and unbeatable price which acts as a starting point to allow many an intro in the hobby of seeing the night sky, including DSO.
Completely agree... I don't discard the facts that it is a great entry level "wonder" for people who doesn't know much and/or doesn't own any device or mount right now.
We can all agree these entry level devices will never compare to dedicated rigs, but, and we all know how deep the rabbit hole can be in this hobby. On all these devices, image quality does suffer from a lot of noise, and lack of sharpness and definition on the fits files ; I know we can all do post process and "enhance" the stacking, stretching and blah blah blah; but there is so much you can pull out. For example, using a used DSLR with a 75-300 mm kit lens, an intervalometer and the cheapest tracker, you can get sharper raw files, after a quick post you'll notice how big the gap is.
Obviously I am not throwing trash, just pointing the differences. One, is just pushing a button (or 2); while on the other method there is a whole lot more involved and you need to know where are you pointing to, no auto correction, slew, etc etc.
I still do not understand why there is still manufactured devices on the Alt-Az mounts instead of EQ altogether (besides the price obvious price point). Sure, you need a 3rd motor to be set at the correct latitude, but it can't be that much expensive if you thing on this type of entry level smart telescopes.
I've been doing astrophotography now for 7 years or so and have a couple full built up rigs. I can't begin to count the amount of interested people when they see photography I've taken, but their eyes glaze over when they begin to understand the complexity and cost (even on the low end) to even start. As a goof I bought the Seestar S50 and honestly I can set it up in under 3 minutes from the time I bring it outside and get really half decent images of DSO from a Bortle 7 sky with essentially no knowledge or understanding needed... for $499. Telescope, Motorized Mount, Tripod, Dew Heater, Camera, Computer, Wifi, Battery, Mobile Application... everything, $499. It becomes the ultimate "into" astrophotography and seeing the night sky and while many may stop at something like a Seestar, I suspect others will move on to more serious applications with better results. I finally... finally... have an answer to someone who wants to have an image they took themselves of a galaxy but don't know how to start and don't know if they should spend significant money on something they aren't sure they will love in the long term.
Good comment. I watched smart telescopes for awhile and the +$4000 prices were off putting, so when I saw Seestar pre-order $399, I was sold. It’s a fun addition to my $15,000 of other gear.
I like the Seestar for casually exploring with my kids and taking on camping trips. I find it fills in a gap that would otherwise be too time consuming or cumbersome.
Rather than adding polar alignment, I suspect these telescopes will add camera rotation. This will allow the user to frame the image and derotate during long exposures.
ZWO is currently field testing their rotator so it wont be long until we see a stand alone version, and then it gets intigrated into a "Smart Scope".
Camera rotator/de-rotator is the way to go. That's the way all modern observatories work. Simplicity and inherent balance of an alt-azimuth mount plus a rotator for the camera. Any telescope can be a smart telescope and most of the strain wave mounts already have an alt-azimuth mode.
Having spent the money and faffed around with mounts and t-adapters for my SLR, and setting an intervalometer, then stacking all the images (including darks, lights and bias), I absolutely welcome the smart telescopes for letting me get on with the job of capturing and editing the subjects I want. It just makes it all so much more accessible
I love it! We old guys who started out with paper star charts, film cameras, scopes that we had to point by hand, and manually guide our exposures with an illuminated reticle eyepiece were laughed off in the early 2000's, when planetarium software, computerized go-to telescopes, autoguiding, and digital imaging made it easy for "anyone" to enter the hobby. We griped that "kids these days don't need to know anything about photography or astronomy because the mounts, software, and cameras do all the work for them!" And the new generation of astrophotographers told us old guys, "The future is now, Old Man! Stop crying about how easy it is and just get the heck out of the way!" Well, you're the Old Man now, Dog! Automatic scopes are here to stay and nobody needs to know anything to use them and take pictures that are just as good as yours. The future is now! How does it feel?!!!!
Just like your I more comfortable pointing my telescope to anything I want to . I never liked hand controllers but I prefer using the apps. As an old chook I am embracing the See Star and the new tech that is coming!
@@kellybellsandthefamilyyep3871SeeStar version 2 in development...
I haven't bought one because I don't want to simply say, "Alex, take a picture of M81". The process of taking the photo is the hobby for me.
Absolutely man 💯
So true. If the process is automated to that level, why don't just say "Alexa, google a picture of M81 taken by Hubble"
@@deepskydiving8940 I’ve had to explain the same thing to my girlfriend (who is near clueless). I used the same analogy. Full hands off automation doesn’t teach anything and doesn’t allow that control that is needed by user input and discretion. I can see why these were developed but it would rather quickly be something that gets shelved due to its nature. On top on that you don’t have much room for alterations/mods and versatility. A true astrophotographer who has genuine interest in space wouldn’t bother with these. It’s mostly for the curious individual.
To each their own. I understand the comment about just saying alexia, give me a picture of M81 but I still get some satisfaction of capturing my own pictures with the Seestar. I’m not going back to paper and pencils when they have calculators or programs to compute math for me.
@@jackg7225 exactly!
Yep, I totally agree. Having it as part of existing software or a plugin would change the hobby hugely and positively. The market for these all-inclusive telescope cameras is not long-term stayers in the hobby, it is people who may not get into the hobby if they have to do more than load an app and press go. They tried to solve this years ago with goto telescopes but these are bulky, expensive and don't sit on a bookshelf when not in use and you really need to spend time to get them working effectively. I think for what they are, these smart telescopes seem good, they have a market for sure and mobile apps have become an acceptible way to access and control things these days, like smart home devices. The goto scope hand controllers and PC software can be clunky and don't get you the instant on-tap gratification a mobile app, can. I totally agree with your views on this though. I am still learning, I am in the hobby with a long-term aspiration to improve and learn more so having software control the gear makes more sense to me than an all-in-one compact camera scope system that I will toss away in two years when the next one is released. I can see why people like these systems though. Turn it on, select a target press a button then wait a while and see your photos. Obviously, you are a Celestron man, but even their system has limits being an AZ mount so it can only take short exposure images, so as cameras get better and more sensitive it will become more sensible to buy an EQ mount with a better camera than a better camera for an old AZ mount, so it still has a time limitation of usefulness before the hardware is outdated even with an interchangeable camera system. I guess a positive side of these is they keep the cash flowing in the door for the manufacturers so maybe mass marketing these things will bring down the cost of hardware in general for everybody, or maybe I'm dreaming. The nice short video was great, I like this topic.
I've been doing photography and videography for decades. Smart phone cameras don't replace a good camera, but they give me the opertunity to capture any moment because I have it handy. Isn't that the point. I can take my Seestsr practically anywhere, and share my love for astronomy. It's a convenient extension of my serious gear. A reasonably inexpensive way to have fun, and educate. I think you see what I'm saying.
Yep, I agree with that
Music to my ears. I have been banging the drum questioning why manufacturers don’t provide motors on their mounts for software to automate the polar alignment routine. I was hoping the Skywatcher Wave would have done this to differentiate themselves against ZWO’s AM product offering. Like others have said on here, not interested in a fully automated telescope as the manual aspects and playing around with the gear is the fun for me. It’s what makes it a hobby! Great video, Dylan!
We’re on the same page! And thanks!
Avalon - Motorized Polar Alignment...
Great points! Open ecosystem, polar alignment motors, and the fun of the build is why I just put together an OAT, Open Astro Tracker. And I think the Open Astro Mount has a lot of potential. Of course, 3D printed parts and home assembly makes it much harder to compete on guide accuracy
Great point Dylan. It shouldn't be too hard for these companies to make their products upgradable. Even if they made them upgradable by using only their upgrades. I would see this as a win-win for everyone.
+1
I bought a Dwarf for fun, ease of use, Quick setup.... A great cloud beater to get a result. I wished my big rig could put the target dead centre 99% of the time like the dwarf, then we would have a real game changer. You are on the right track Dylan. Cheers.
I've got my Seestar for camping, space in the car is at a premium and my big rig would take up that all important space. I still take the Star Adventurer for the camera.
It goes to WA when visiting family who live in dark skies in the South West, so it is easy to take on a plane as travel luggage. And finally, when I go out to dinner at friends in their darkish skies, not to far from you Dylan, it is quick and easy to set up, forget and enjoy the outcome. I also use it at school with the students, live streaming the moon and the sun through a data projector.
They have their place and it certainly gets people interested in the night sky, especially when they look up and cannot see many stars due to Light Pollution and the EAA's show them a different night sky. Once hooked, there are no boundaries except the budget.
That is so awesome!
There are people who like to get quick astro pictures and there people who like to master a technical challenge. Completely different camps. Adding motors to automate PA is indeed a missing feature, but I think mini-alt-az-scopes are here to stay. For me 'the journey is the destination', which is why I like the hobby so much.
Your first category can simply use Google and save even more money.
Avalon - Motorized Polar Alignment...
There is definitely a market out there for things like this. Outreach, size, weight, easy setup, those that can't or don't want to handle heavy boxes of gear. They're great for those who may only have a couple of hours to look at things too! Quality will improve with these just like our cameras today rival the Hubble!
Spot on! I also have been waiting for one manufacturer to integrate motors to automate polar alignment. NINA already has the advanced sequencer and literally the only thing I don't have automated with it is the polar alignment. I do also have a Seestar, but I bought it more for my daughter to share astronomy with her friends.
I do not own a Seestar. But I know it is popular. I think the reason for this is its user friendliness, low weight/volume and cost. I *suspect* a lot of buyers did not know a lot about stuff like focal length, lenses versus mirrors, alt/az versus equatorial and so forth. Just press some buttons and you get a nice image. It gets people into the hobby or at least get them a bit more involved in whats up there at night. And perhaps a new interest is sparked. May be a lot of Seestar owners are going to dig a bit deeper into it, and try some freeware software (like Siril) to stack the images themselves to check the differences between the out-of-the-box image and their own. And from there.. who knows.
But I also know of people having large dobs, or proffesional setupts for decades, and just buy this Seestar as an extra to just to plop it next to the big gun and have it image the skies while they are busy visually observing. Or just have clear skies for less then an hour so setting up the big thing is just not worth it.
I agree that it should be possible to make your own "semi" smart telescope using off the shelf stuff. Issue is, that if you need to buy new, it will be more costly. Just look at one of the epsiodes of Cuiv the lazy geek.
Myself, I would like to have something semi-automated with a larger aperture, a better camera and a longer focal length. I can't help myself: I just love galaxies. But it should not break the bank. I am not going to do a lot of post processing either: so a bit of EAA-extra. May I should just buy a skywatcher Virtuoso: nice focal length of 750 mm, 6" aperture and a go-to mount. Relatively transportable and cheap (
I get where you are coming from. I’m “between homes”. I rent a room in the city where I work, and all my stuff is at my sister’s in Arizona. The city is Bortle 5000 and Arizona has no view of Polaris from the backyard though it’s Bortle 4.5. Having the convenience of the Seestar lets me enjoy the hobby “on the fly”, even in the city. Once I’m settled, I’ll do the whole observatory thing in the backyard with the rig that I’ve been collecting over the years.
Great post Dylan! Really intelligent presentation and ideas!
sounds like you have a project ahead of you to create such a telescope for the masses 👍
It's the ease of overall usage. Any problem with any step in the process... is those manufactures problem. That is actually very nice. Cause everything is garbage and everything breaks. Case and point, my Vespera (now called Classic) died 2 hours before the solar eclipse in the US of A. Pretty sure it was due to their last two updates, one of which was the morning of the eclipse... at any rate the scope arrived in France last week and they will fix and send it back to the US of A. Although that is crazy far to send it, it is all free because the entire setup is warrantied for 2 years.
That is actually a nice relief rather than one manufacturer blaming the mount, the motor, the CCD camera, the optics... etc...
I'm looking forward to the Origin. Still waiting...
Super interesting perspective, Dylan. I think there are two points here. 1. Completely agree re motorising Alt and Az for polar alignment and solving that with software - that’s a big win especially for anyone without an obsy. 2. Don’t underestimate how intimidating things like NINA or even APT can be to a non-technically minded person, or someone with little time, and how just getting everything talking properly to a PC can be a hill too high; I think these automated scopes will fill that market very well. I can see no reason why they’d appeal to seasoned imagers, however. All the best and thanks for sharing, Paul.
Yeh agree .. I think the UI for software like NINA could have a “just do it” mode is what I’m saying :)
Avalon - Motorized Polar Alignment kit
I'd like the extra motors not just for automatic polar alignment, but for other features such as automatic horizon detection. Take a few minutes to map out limits of trees, bright glarey lights or other objects automatically. Extra motors will allow sweeping patterns that just can't happen with RA+DEC alone.
Not a fan of these devices personally, but I do see their uses. I can easily see them being used by schools or astronomy clubs to spark an interest of astronomy. If more young minds are able to quickly get a glimpse of how the night skies look without light pollution, they may get involved in perserving the nights. The more the better.
In spite of me not liking or wanting a smartscope; astronomy and astrophotography has never been more accessible to the average person - and I think that is nothing but a good thing.
As a primarily wildlife/timelapse photographer you've totally sold me on one of these 🙂You've always been an appropriate cautionary tale for me about why I should avoid true astrophotography. But with one of these puppies I could much more easily get into basic astro. Cheers from Perth.
The Seestar costs about one sixth as much as a self-assembled imaging rig. It's in a totally different market segment. Adding polar alignment motors to a traditional mount will increase the price differential still further. Many people don't want to make that kind of investment in astrophotography.
You talk about the many people who won't make the investment. That's not how a market is defined. It is defined by. ... Who *will* buy the Avalon - Motorized Polar Alignment kit.
For the task they were designed for which is making astronomy accessible to a total beginner, I think the solution does need to be a closed system. The total beginner doesn't want to piece together many parts, or concern themselves with those technically challenging things, and in order to make the experience reliable they have to control for every part of the system. BTW I imagine the 'total beginner' not necessarily as someone like us, we are technically minded and love to suffer. The beginner I envision would just give up.
So I view these things as more of a 'low-barrier-to-entry-gateway-drug". Those who love the experience will learn its limitations, and through it they will be educated enough to know what to do next in their journey.
So for this reason I love the idea of the Seestar/dwaflab/etc. I know they are not for me now, but they would have been for me back when I was 13 and didn't have the money for a full astro rig.
That being said, the Celestron Origin to me is a disgusting idea. It is a telescope catered to the rich idiot, who has more money than they have time to learn anything. Most people who have that kind of money to throw around a smart enough to know that they should be buying a planewave lol.
What astronomy needs to be is cheaper, and more accessible to a larger group of people. To do this there needs to be a minimum viable solution to take any kind of astrophoto in the easiest way possible.
Good points Bray :)
Hey Dylan, I appreciate your viewpoint on why you haven't bought one.
Anyone who's been in the hobby since 'smart alignment' has become a thing I believe has wondered the same thing on the mechanical/hardware side... why haven't they programmed the mount to fully polar align in EQ. Of course Meade and Celestron have had their GPS systems for 20+ years which have allowed easy Alt-Az use, especially good visually. But you are correct about the dearth of motorized base configurations with automated systems for EQ.
I think we are at a crossroads with the intro of smart automatic mounts where an open source initiative could be made ASCOM compliant and be built even 3D printed for a large percentage of the necessary parts for a motorized web. We see this in the Strainwave systems. Turning in Azimuth(E-W) doesn't have to be more than 30* with a rough tripod setup to North. And creating a vertical lift mechanism up to a certain weight limit can be affordable. We already have had wedges available for limited degree ranges, so choosing an auto-wedge similarly designed could be done easily.
Initially I could see this breath life into any of the smaller/cheaper Alt-Az systems already out there like the SE/ETX types. There are cheap guide-camera systems which could be mounted on the base or OTA for alignment if user doesn't have one yet.
The software side of things is relatively easy to integrate a platesolve system with algorithms written to compute and adjust an automated base. These days between all the mini-computing options the cost for a DIY wedge software could be relatively cheap if a couple of intelligent open-source engineers put their heads together.
I bought an S50 as I had enough credits on Amazon to get one from giving blood, so I look at it as essentially free to me. But the reason I got it was the ease of use even realizing the obsolescence I could be buying. But I think for multipurpose use (not just pure AP) the S50 is a tool to have which can be pulled out on a trip or short outing without having to lug the main equipment willy nilly. It's place isn't in replacing AP, but more in accessorizing what we can do IF it fits into how we operate in the hobby. I can fully understand your position, it makes sense. And I appreciate you didn't denigrate those who have chosen to get into these devices... a good one on you mate!
Anyway, looking forward to continuing to watch your posts and hear your opinions down the line as hopefully things change towards those dreams of automated EQ alignment.
Excellent point of view thx!
for real! Since you mention that in one of your videos ! I am waiting, as you, to get that kind of an upgrade!!
Hi Dylan, I'm one of those that spent thousands on equipment (still do), and still love using it. But for simple quick and easy EAA to excite the young ones, the Seestar I bought does the job admirably. The Celestron version looks fantastic but the price is prohibitive in these difficult times. Keep up the great work mate.
A great video as usual Dylan 🙂. I suppose something like 4 EAF's connected to the 4 polar adjustment bolts would do the trick to most EQ mounts, then as you say have software to make the 4 motors talk to the imaging camera, and sorted 😀
i've been building the Open Astro Tracker and the guys there have designed that little mount with auto polar alighment with stepper motors , totaly doable for larger mounts , i think it would be a great idea for larger travel scope/mount . all you realy need is a motor kit, some brackets ,a little arduino build and software
I think that is a great idea to auto polar align. I completed my new shed the other day and will be able to wheel my telescope out on to the upcoming concrete pad, even though it takes me about two minutes to sharpCap polar align, it would be nice not to crouch down every time. Great thought. And you can't beat big rigs that's for sure.
100% agree. I want something that will automatically adjust the alt/az on my mount. That is the only thing missing on my setup.
One of my major frustrations is getting everything to work together. You have spend a considerable time in getting your equipment/software to play nicely together. I find manuals are written from the viewpoint of what it does not how to use it.
I have a Orion Atlas EQ-G equatorial mount supporting a Meade DS 10 reflector. Adding motors to drive the Alt/Az adjustments might be difficult as currently Alt requires a 6" wrench on the adjustment screw to make it turn. (Of course if the optical tube and counter weights were not installed this would be easier.) I think making polar alignment 'Auto' would require a redesign of the mount to support the motors/drives, hence a new mount. A second issue is aligning the optical axis with the polar axis which would require an additional drive set. The engineering design and software interface would require a pretty large investment for even a big company. The the product would wind up being expensive.
I do have a Seestar S50. I can't see much of a difference between the s50 images (2k Image) and the ones taken with a Cannon 3Ti (24 meg image) . However, I am viewing both it on a 2K monitor. That is probably a discussion for another thread.
Superb follow-up to the D.A.M.M.I.T. 4000 😁 I started out with an entry level ASIair based rig and mucked around with that for about a year before realising that I lack the temperament for AP, which is a fancy way of saying that I'm just really lazy and far too impatient. I also realised that I'm not as interested in creating astro images, as viewing those created by more talented people than I . . . give me an art gallery over a studio any day! I'm just trying to get a better fix on what I think I'm seeing through the eyepiece (yes, I'm one of THOSE people who do visual astro and dabble with computers and what not). So when Vaonis released the Vespera 2, my lovely wife suggested that it might be the answer to what we're looking for and we've found that it's amazingly good for what it is.
More advanced AP still intrigues me though, and perhaps when (if?) I retire and if there's ever a device out there like the D 4000, I might have another go with a modular system. Cheers!
Thanks for this. The criticism of the closed system is not one I’d thought of with there “smart telescopes,” but I get it. I guess I just never thought that devices like the Seestar or Dwarf or Vespera were trying to solve any problem for people with full-blown AP rigs. People with such rigs already know what they are doing and will likely not be happy with the field rotation, often narrow FOV and tiny pixels on uncooled cameras these devices feature now anyway. I see these at the current stage of the market as either for beginners as a possible gateway drug or as for people who just want to image space for minimal expense and no expertise who probably won’t get a next system. I have four full AP rigs I use for different purposes. I bought a Seestar for times when I travel without room for toting a rig along, just for fun, maybe practice with processing, and it actually worked decently for the full solar eclipse. I’ve enjoyed using it for those purposes, but of course my full rigs are far superior and, as you say, open. Given whet you are doing, I guess I’d be a little shocked if you bought one of these now. I see them as beginner or convenience or just-for-fun devices at this stage. To be really satisfying for people already advanced in AP, they have to perform a lot better than they can at this moment. And, as you say, be open systems! Cheers!
Good video! I think one consideration is beginners may struggle to match equipment properly when putting together a rig. For me, will get one. Not to replace my main imaging rig but for travel. I hope manufacturers listen to your concept. Would be a game changer.
Appreciate you sharing your innovative thoughts on self aligning mounts. Regarding the popularity of smart telescopes. In my view, price and the cost of entry into the hobby is prohibitive and likely a blocker for many who have thought about or wanted to get into the hobby.
I see these inexpensive scopes as a gateway drug that will get folks exited about what they can see in the sky and ultimately will drive them into buying better equipment and migrate fully into the hobby, and that is a good thing for all of us who love this thing :)
I've almost motorized my eq6r mounts polar axis. It was my senior project for my engineering degree. Also, Avalon instruments from Italy make some cool stuff to help solve the manual polar alignment thing.
YAY you posted another video
this is gonna be so much better than doing my calc hw
Sorry it’s not the usual style .. just a rant! Now do that calc. These new mounts aren’t going to engineer themselves.
I’m doing Calc hw too! Taylor polynomials and Lagrange error bounds
One of the main reasons I'm in this hobby is for the the pleasure of probelm solving it still throws up occasionally. Along with that there's the kick I get from processing data and pulling out the details I want to see, even if it's in fake colour on occasion.
I cut my teeth back in the late 1980's using film and the telescope on the roof on my University in Leeds.
I guess I'm not their target audience though.
I can see how this might be a good introduction to the hobby though until the person involved wishes to stretch themselves a little.
In addition there is the ease of outreach as suggested by another commenter.
my travel rig is Plonk'n'Play - apart from the PA manual intervention as you mention. Been wondering myself for a while now why nobody had motorised the Alt/Az mechanism for auto PA. Good shout out.
Interesting conversation. I experienced the SeeStar50 in person for the first time a few nights ago. I had seen all the videos but actually seeing one in use it was a first for me. I feel like the fact that they are trying to make these rigs so easy and portable to set up they will NEVER replace real astro-imaging rigs like your observatory. We were out imaging from a dark location with my rig on a single target all night and with everything automated once it was running, it was very fun to play around with the SeeStar and check out multiple targets. Time that I would normally spend in my sleeping bag, catching a few ZZZzzs where instead spent looking at my buddies' phone as a new image popped up every 5 minutes or so.
BTW - nice to see the occasional serious conversation video from you. Now get back to the sarcasm!
Interesting! And hah .. don’t worry I’ll be back to triggering the visual community before you know it.
I saw a person using Seestar and it was very cool. I was amazed at how quick the setup was. I Also wondered how versatile it was, small DSO's vs large galaxies etc. etc. I have two scopes already so I don't think I'll be getting one, but they are cool.
Well, it’s about time somebody said it. Regards, Manual Dob(with Eq platform) & SeeStar S50, owner
The SeeStar and other "smart" telescopes are just fun, grab and go scopes that set up in less than ten minutes. To me, a good analogy is boombox versus full blown stereo component system. Yes, I'm dating myself to the 1970s. One is self-contained, simple, and low cost (mine was $399); the other is complex, expensive, and not at all easily portable. The SeeStar, of course, cannot begin to produce the quality of the more complex and expensive systems, but it sure is a fun break. Last week about midnight, I grabbed my SeeStar, walked down the street and onto the golf course path with a clear view to the south and found Omega Centauri down in the muck five degrees above the horizon.
Even if it could auto polar align and then manually be locked down to stop any backlash issues once the mount is moving would be a big help
Astrophotography is probably where PCs were in the 80s or 90s (we're probably past the 70s Homebrew Computer Club era). In those days you HAD to know about how everything worked and you had to get the right components and get them to work together. You could pick and chose what you wanted suit your exact use case, and you were not locked in. However things moved on.
Most people now have fully integrated systems, and to be honest something like a Nuc or Macbook Air is way better for 99% of people than something even a good integrator could put together. Yes still there is a market for people to build their own PCs and run Linux or BSD on it, but it's a niche. One good thing we can hopefully look forward to is the technology developed for the automated systems will trickle down to "manual" systems and we get better things. Kind of like what the smartphone did to MEMS, CMOS sensors and batteries.
I've been talking about automatic polar alignment for a while, like... its a natural progression. The thing is that you don't need it if you have camera rotator and an alt az mount. That combo is the eq killer that gets you out of the short exposure compromise.
Self polar alignment I could go for that. See your point about being hooked completely into someone’s system. If it’s all automatic were’s the fun. Getting a good shot feels like how struggling to land a Marlin would be some nights makes the final processed image that much sweeter.
Dylan/all - the prodominant use we have for them is during Outreach events. Typically my outreach setup includes my Broadcast van, large screen, Live stacking, my Portable Pier, EQ6, etc. etc. It is a Huge amount of setup (albeit I can get up and running in 15 mins or so.)
But as an example - we have an event on Top of the Exhibition building this Thursday. Zero chance of me getting my Portable observatory setup on the roof. But some Seestars are going to be taken.
BUT I 100% get it - I am in the process of engineering a Full observatory setup with a ground up Mount with Extreme encoding, and indeed Alt/AZ motorisation as a GEM, because I just hate fiddling the nobs to align...HATE IT! It is going to be Small scale, but on a Large scale model (i.e. no different to Very Large Observatory setups for alignment - pretty sure they don't use knobs that end up grinding kuckles off when doing alignments on Keck and down in Chile...) I then hope to duplicate this to eventually replace the AZ-EQ6-GT with something which will still be GEM, but portable where I hope to Never have to do an alignment again...just Plug and Play.
I'm decently sure by the time I get that far down the track - either someone will have re-written ASCOM to support an alignment at that level...Or I will get whatever itteration of ChatGPT to assist me in writing something from scratch with some back end Python AI.
I found this video trying to see if there was any videos of the the dwarf 3 out yet. Anyways the reason I've been interested and looking at some of the smaller one button telescopes is mostly for travel. I work in retail and don't have a set schedule so a more spontaneous overnight camping trip is kind of what I'm usually stuck with. I think it could/would be fun to have somthing easy i can take with me. If I could I would also love to invest in something bigger and better just haven't been able to justify it yet. I do think there's a market for what you were suggesting and it made me think of one of these companies making a moduler system. Buy a base and have different lens/sensor kits that can ve switched out. Wider field or something with more power. Also only have to upgrade parts and not replace the whole thing.
I was not aware that mounts wern't already fully automated, I had assumed they would be... interesting... Sounds like a good project to undertake.
Dylan, well said and insightful thoughts (brain dump) on the topic. Sure, expensive toys (!), but I can see a central issue could be that they introduce a novice to the hobby with little existing knowledge. So ..perhaps.. also needed is a clear pathway to go from a fully automated set up to easy polar alignment. But that is really one of your central points for a software integrated Alt/Az mount. TY for the video!
I agree with Dylan, all the models on the market are just expensive toys that are one upgrade away from becoming e-waste / landfill.
In addition AP is interesting BECAUSE it is hard to do well, if all you want is a pretty astronomy photo to put on your desktop with zero personal challenge, then that interwebby thing the youngsters talk about has lots of them available for download at zero cost.
Avalon makes one of those polar alignment bases. Polar align from your computer, but automatic...
But with plate solving and such, polar aligning takes maybe 10, sometimes 20 minutes. And can already be done before it's dark enough to do proper imaging.
I totally agree. I Own a M-uno and they can already get you halfway with an automated azimuth axis. Unclear why only on. On top of that the eagle is now going for the (usb)wireless route. Both very interesting developmentin the right direction for serious astronomers.
Automated polar alignment has been done on normal mounts for a while now, DIY and from manufacturers like Avalon's.
I was having fun with my 8” dobsonian telescope (for the last year). I don’t have a tracker or goto for it. It is cumbersome to move around. I bought a camera to try on it after my dslr didn’t work so well for me but if you already have all this stuff, great, don’t go backwards. I’ve listened to another person in the astronomy club who says his refractor equipment is heavy and takes some time to set up. The s50 takes me 5 minutes.
I bought the Seestar and been having a great time with it and its probably only cost a fractions of what you’ve spent. Yes if zwo come out with a new one this quick to replace the s50. I won’t be too happy but depending on the cost I might buy the new model and give the s50 to my son. I’m blown away with the dso pictures I’ve captured. The cost of these other gear is prohibitively to me or should say, I’m not willing to spend thousands of dollars.
30 years ago I bought a small Newtonian (4” ?) on an alt/az mount. I was not impressed and it has sat in a box since then and until I bought the 8” in Jan 2023 but I can’t see the dso (except like M42) with my 8”.
So for me, it all comes down to cost and easy of use due to time.
Hey Dylan. I'm actually striving to get there eventually, but since I'm doing this development in my free time, which is very limited, I'm going very slow. I haven't been able to push any commits in months now, mostly because RL has been keeping me busy with other things. But yeah, it's a software thing, and exactly 2 stepper motors (not cheap ones, moving the PA knobs takes considerable power) plus a lot of software work would do the trick. I can do the software work. I can maybe do the stepper motor stuff, I can handle some soldering. I just need time. If I get there, it will be open source, so ;-)
I do private and group Astronomy parties and I like to use the Seestar to show them a bit of what the objects we saw visually look like stacked. I like to be very clear that the images are not professional images. Either way it is a great way to finish off a night of viewing
Also, there’s one company I know of, Avalon Instruments, that have auto polar alignment by having motors in the alt & az base!
Seems so simple!
Good point about the non-swapable cameras in most of these, I'm sure we can rely on "new improved" arriving before long.
...and another mountain of e-waste.
I mostly agree with your points, and COMPLETELY agree that this is something we should be able to do with any telescope with some simple modifications from the manufacturers. But I do see some value in these one-touch scopes in that it brings a (currently) complex process to the quick and easy mainstream and at a comparatively cheap cost. It’s akin the the Walmart-level scopes. You’ll never see the quality, adaptability, or versatility of what we get with our “all-fingers-in-the-pudding” scopes, but it’s something that enables the hobby for those who want a more affordable way in and don’t really care about the abilities we have outside these simple systems.
A $700 Seestar will never compete with a system such as yours but unless you’re buying used, or willing to tinker, you’d be hard pressed to get an easy results system with mount, scope, camera, etc, that these systems offer. So I see some value in that, and if it brings interest into the field it’s a starting point that may spark further interest into something which will give commensurate results.
Otherwise, spot on!
Good perspective !
Love my Seestar S50, it fits my backpack when traveling on airplane across the country!
Yes!
I love all the noises in the background lol, but I agree, they really should make automatic polar alignment and automatic leveling tripods and we have the technology to make them.
N.I.N.A does have that 3 star alignment, but as mentioned, most heavy duty eq mounts don't have motor drives on the altitude and azimuth planes, thumb screw adjustments.
Hi Dylan, you seem to have a similar view to mine. It surprises me that no one has automated the polar alignment. I worked in engineering for fifty years, during which time I've seen far more complicated gear than an EQ mount. My guess is that the manufacturers are just trying to keep costs down as the engineering and software would be pretty straightforward.
The reason I have not bought a See Star or similar is because I already have a rig based around a Cat51 and ASIair mini that can do the same job and more. The only drawback is the ASIair only permits use of ZWO cameras and some Canon and Nikon DSLRs. I can of course control it with my laptop if I wish which has NINA, SharpCap and APT installed should I want to use a non ZWO camera. I do find with the level of automation in astro photography these days, I don't spend very much time outside anymore.
I have however recommended people who are considering taking up astro photography to take a look at the See Star, at around £500 in the UK, it has to be the cheapest option that will give decent results ( my set up cost considerably more than that and I wouldn't consider recommending it to a beginner unless they had the money or were prepared to build it up over time as I did, adding bits like auto focusers, guide scopes, mini pcs etc as finances allowed)
Agree .. but you have to tighten the lockscrews when the mount is aligned.
And if there ist some kind of freeplay, that threw the alignment out of the window ...
So if there is no freeplay that would be awesome....
I dont know... maybe with strain wave motors you dont need lockscrews. At least I dont think you need them, because there is no backlash
You're right, but other than just a software problem, it's a cost issue. You need two additional gears and motors, and that's additional money. ALT/AZ mounts don't need that; it's already in place. I think those brands like ZWO, Celestron, and Dwarf are checking how their current products are selling, whether people like them or not, and then making a decision on whether they should pursue a more complex and expensive solution. On another side if ALT/AZ devices will become so good so no one even need "automated" equatorial mounts.
I won a SeeStar in a giveaway. I found it useful during the 2023 annular eclipse (didn’t have it with me during the total). It’s a good thing to have while traveling vs bringing a giant setup. But out side of that, it’s gone unused & even somehow managed to break by just sitting? It was just gathering dust & i picked it up and the arm was dangling off. One of those things I appreciated the convenience of when using it, but never would actually buy myself
Interesting. I think a lot of telescopes can be that way too, but for the low effort and travelling I can see the appeal.
You're right about the software, and you're right that nothing magic going on.
I think what you're missing (or willfully not discussing) is that the average (auto-scope) consumer doesn't want a telescope, they want an iPhone-ish solution. Portable, throw it on a table, push go. Impress your friends hot cousin... That's all. They don't want to blow anyone's mind with their great photo on Astrobin, and they don't want to do science either.
It's not supposed to be for people who have good telescopes, its just a cheap way for anyone to take a photo of a nebula. There is no replacement (as you know) for aperture, and integration time. You will always create a superior image using a 10inch scope and 80 hours of exposures. Thats not what these consumer devices are about. Just like how wedding photographers don't use a smartphone for photography even though lots of smartphones are pretty competent little cameras, they are still limited by the physics of their tiny plastic lens, no matter how smart the software ever gets.
All that having been said you're dead-right that there is no reason the same kind of software couldn't show up in more serious telescope setups, and it probably will in the next few years.
I really like the idea of an OPEN SYSTEM that is nonetheless turnkey-ready for the user. Let's continue talking about building up the automation on the basis of existing technology! The software is just now maturing to the point that we can put it all together. Motorizing the polar alignment seems to be the only physical missing link.
Exactly .. our acquisition software is capable of doing all the tricks when we want it to be turnkey. It’s just a UI change.
SharpCap has half the auto polar alignment... just needs a script to drive stepper motors attached to Alt/Az adjustment screws to move to the adjustment.
...and this is why I'm not jumping on the strain wave trend. A mount that can polar align won't be far away and bring it on man, I can't wait.
I have the Seestar s50. I was fortunate enough to get a significant discount at the time. I've had telescopes since I was kid but I got sick of hobby killers and gave it up for many years until I bought my first 8" Dob. It was awesome except I had manually find and follow everything so taking decent pictures was limited to the moon. Then a Celestron 4se. While good, even with a huge range of filters, eyepieces and camera adapters, it still didn't quite get the result I wanted. I love the little Seestar and what it can do, but it's left me wanting more. I've even tried a polar alignment with it but that was dismal failure. It takes some nice pictures, drop the subs into PI, Siril or PS. I've seen users spend a few nights on a single target and spend another few days in PI to produce some pretty impressive shots. The tech is getting scarily good so I reckon it won't be long until someone produces a larger, auto polar aligning power house capable of near Hubble quality images for less than $5k. But now that you've put it out there, some basement software genius will come up with it for NINA for sure.
Yes I think the next few generations of auto scope could really improve things. Like phones they could be brilliant despite their size.
Exactly !!! This is the current obvious omission from this Hobby . Our local group has been discussing this for quite a while . If a small Company offered an upgrade option to retrofit existing mounts but only through a kickstarter program would we be willing to support it ? Lots of questions there .
for me, the fun is setting up my telescope and mount and polar aligning. Its like asking why someone would ride their bicycle instead of just driving. Yeah driving may be easier and may be faster, but if I am cycling for my enjoyment, then it doesn't really matter how fast or easy driving is.
100% agree.
I agree with the idea of two motors in the mount to polar align but it would add cost and be different and while a company will spend on new equipment for something that is the rage and fashion imp improving what is already there even with a knob instead of a bolt and key doesnt seem to interest them.
The more i think of it. And to Dylan's point ... Modularity needs to be key to this. Openish might be the way to go. In addition to software considerations, these things need to be designed with modularity in mind. Uogradeable components. Optics, Camera, Control, Interfacing, etc. the more that happens though...the less vendor lockin there will be.
100% Right on!
Same. My ieq45pro is beginning to feel like a relic. Polar alignment should be automated. No doubt and I’m sure it will someday. I’m always disappointed in how even the new strain wave mounts have such crude adjustment bolts. I wish someone would make a Mount with precise and easily lockable adjustment knobs/bolts. Unlocking, moving, then locking again always throws alignment off. I’m sure this could easily be improved. All of the new smart scopes are mainly for newcomers.
I like the flexibility to do different objects which means different focal lengths. You can't do that with something like a seestar s50.
I'm a software developer and an amateur astronomer mostly into EAA. I thought about it a few months ago and started designing a system that would achieve the polar alignment automatically but soon I realized, the altitude axis won't ever be balanced which causes lots of strain on the gears and the precision needed simply cannot be achieved. Btw, those smart telescopes operate at alt/az and doesn't need to be polar aligned.
They're definitly not redundant when you look at them as gateway drugs to astrophotography. There would be a HUGE segment of an untapped market completly overwhelmed and intimidated by all the things you just said your big rig can already do. And lets face it, the learning curve for all of that did not come simply and is more than enough to have this hobby dead out of the gate for a lot of people. And some people just want to have fun and not deal with the trials and tribulations of many moving parts. I see them as a great thing because the more people that get into astro, get excited by their baby steps, a portion of which will graduate and start buying more dedicated setups, which will hopefully have a long tail effect on price and further spur innovation in this space.
I’ve thought about getting that mount and since N.I.N.A is pretty open it wouldn’t be hard to create a plugin for it.
Yeh honestly years ago I thought of this just having some servos on the adjustment. But gave up on the software idea. figured it wasnt too hard to do manually but would be nice hey.
Avalon has a "Universal Polar Alignment System". Its a base where you put your mount on and the you can controll alt and az by software. But I dont know if it is fully automated or you have tu push the buttons in the software.
here in germany the base costs about 1600€
Some Avalon mounts uno I believe have Motorized alt/az. Though I’m not sure if they have integrated that as part of an automated process
Not as simple as you may first think.
I have one
With GPS finding position isn't a problem.
Levelling the tri-pier 0.1 Arc-second also not a problem.
Motorising & locking Alt-AZ also not a problem.
motorising the saddle & counter waits fairly easy.
Finding true north/south with any sort of accuracy a major pain & probably impossible to do cheaply without looking at the sky.
Commercial MEMS are getting better but no ware near the accuracy required. FOG or RLG is needed.
Dylan, love your content. I think the smart scopes are geared towards people who don't want to use software like nina and Pixinsight. It really is meant for a plug and play solution for beginners. I think that's why this is taking off. I do agree that us more serious hobbyists need automated PA systems, theres a guy on facebook doing it. I think he's using a raspberry pi or arduino.
You'd be surprised how many ppl are using Siril and Pixinsight for post processing Seestar and smart telescope images : )