Wizards Tried to Ban Scam...So I Play Scam! | Much Abrew
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- Опубликовано: 28 июл 2024
- On Monday Wizards banned some card in Modern to try to power down Scam, but they didn't ban the most notorious Scam piece Grief for some reason! Was this a mistake? Let's toss together an Orzhov Scam list, take it through a league and find out?
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0:00 Start
4:04 Match 1
10:45 Match 2
21:50 Match 3
33:01 Match 4
49:22 Match 5 
Игры
Imagine you get matched with saffronolive, one of your favorite content creators, well known for his spicy brews and playing outside the box decks, and he's playing %*@(#,÷$ scam lol
Okay but what about that one time he played tron
Seth is known for playing free win decks.
I would love a full series of color shifted modern archetypes...
Blue Tron, baby! Let's goooo!
That actually sounds fun!
@@MTGGoldfish Mono white tron and taxes?
Abzan death’s shadow
Black burn
One of the biggest issues I have with the grief scam decks is the play draw difference. I would bet that when scam decks get the play first in match 1 they have a huge win rate advantage.
Yea and anything up against mono red has the same problem witch should be on the rise now with fury gone
I’m sure they do. No matter what deck I have I lose turn one against a double grief. People were scared of thought knot seer, this is thought knot seer that hits you twice, never gives you cards back, and lands turn one. Did I mention evasion?
Isn't that the same with any hyper linear deck, like burn etc? I'm not defending Scam. I 100% think WotC should have banned Grief for the same reason a card like KCI or Bridge from Below is banned...because the only time it shows up alot is when it's broken or miserable to play against.
I honestly think WotC is planning on reprinting the elementals this year and so really didn't want to ban both of them...but in the end, I think grief will be banned and WotC may try to make it up to players who buy whatever product the elementals are in...best case is a secret lair, worst case is a reprinting in a big set like MH3.
@@mattm7798 Burn is just more likely to win due to speed. Grief is a whole other story because if they go first, you don’t even get to go second. You lose your first turn play, removal to kill grief, and probably 8+life minimum from grief who still is a menace 4/3
Lmfao @26:26 activating Dauthi into Lavinia was hilarious!
Not that many people are aware of this because the elementals were kinda rare at first when they came out, but BW stoneblade and BW shadow were the proto scam decks where you could scam and play your Grief turn 1, Shadow or mystic on turn two, followed by a Kaldra turn 3.
The problem with that deck is the same as the one you see here, the scam pattern itself felt kinda pointless, you lose three cards to take three cards and you can't attack until turn 3 with a 3/2, which is fairly underwhelming, it's counter intuitive, you can even see Seth discovering that undying effects like "Not Dead After All" are a better scam combo than Ephemerate BECAUSE of the extra power and additional attack turn.
Yes you take your opponent's best 3 cards, but that's not really much of a bargain because you're putting what is essentially "air" in your deck just to do it with all the undying and ephemerate effects, meaning it's about as miserable to play WITH as it was to play against said pattern.
Of course, this deck soon got overshadowed by the Yorion Elementals/moneypile deck of the time, so maybe it'll play a bit better now, but I really doubt it.
All in all, the reason Fury was a problem in and of itself is that it edged out go wide decks LIKE humans, Merfolk, Goblins, etc., which are really strong against, you guessed it, targeted removal like Solitude, so while the Grief pattern was miserable to play against, it also added insult to injury by raining on other unrelated decks' parade.
funny how you refer to "pointless" as something that is actually fair......... ahh sweet modern
Tbh they were only rare at first since most people chose lurrus over them
@@newchanneltest77-846 Well, generally in cardgames like this if you're doing something "fair" (like a one for one) you want it to either be inexpensive (in terms of mana cost/space in your deck, hence all them 2 mana removal spells out there) or in some other way impactful. The issue with this sort of thing being "fair" is it's taking up quite a bit of deck space, and lacks additional impact, you are giving up too much of your design space to pull it off for it to simply be "fair" is basically the idea.
You spend 2 cards to take 3 cards from your opponent (you don't count the grief since it sticks on board) which is card advantage, and disruption, and a reasonable clock wrapped together. Also go wide decks are only good against spot removal when they're denying a one for one trade with things like tokens. Aggro decks like humans are largely soft to spot removal, not strong against it.
Also a big part of the reason is that the white cards and white/black cards are just worse than the red ones and the red/black ones.
Was it a misplay around 17:54 to not Ephemerate the troll on the opponent's turn, removing the -1/-1 counter to speed up the clock by a turn?
Yeah, I think so. I didn't notice it at the time, but watching it now I think that was the correct play.
Wondered that too.
Agreed with your assessment. These games proved why Fury absolutely needed to go; you'd have closed out games so much faster, likely turning a couple losses here in to wins.
But to me, watching this, it's not just that Grief feels so bad to play against, it's that it warps the game so much. You're using 3 non-lands to get rid of 3 non-lands; it's fair, in a sense, and usually can't quickly win afterwards (Voidwalker shenanigans notwithstanding), but it puts you both in to top-deck mode far quicker than the game is 'supposed' to. That's not healthy for the game, even if it's not particularly overpowered (eg you couldn't do much against that man-lands/efficient Eldrazi creatures deck, because their average card power was high and didn't need all that much synergy to do stuff).
Haha right, it's like what if every game was an blue aggro mirror in legacy where each player pitches 2 forces and are top decking turn 2...maybe WotC could explore a format where you start with 3 cards with a guaranteed land but I agree, top deck mode so early just feels really off.
It doesn't prove why Fury needed to go it proves why Fury was crucial to the deck.
"Everyyyybody puuuuuunts!....soooometiiiimes" -R.E.M.
26:30 I don't think you're actually lost. If you don't draw with castle locthwain, you can attack with troll, kill Jirina, and then ephemerate to untap the troll. Now they can't attack, because if they do you can block it and then attack them back for the win.
Yeah, this is something Seth hasn’t gotten good at yet. Don’t punt into shame scoop! Sometimes you haven’t lost the game yet.
If anything I think the occasional punt improves the video quality, because it drives comments + engagement of people pointing out the punt :) (Also, it can be very entertaining!)
A little humbling never hurt (physically at least) 🤓
I hope you are right because I can't stop punting ;)
punting is the best way to learn, at least that's what I tell myself@@MTGGoldfish
Hey Seth it was super cool to see the humans deck in round 3, maybe Richard can take a few pointers from that deck to build around Lavinia like he mentioned in the earlier podcast. Hope you guys can make a video about that brew!
Seth, i find it funny that you went on a rant about recovering from punts right after conceding a game that you hadn't even lost yet because you punted.
Match 3, after running into Lavinia, you could have attacked, and then Ephemerated Troll in response to the Jhoira sac, giving you a blocker and having them go down a creature, letting you survive. You just scooped because you punted, though.
I saw that Lavinia misplay coming from a mile away. Screaming at my monitor like that picture of Walter White in the car.
Thank you for your comment on punting! Super helpful approach!
Man every time seeing him scoop with so many outs in his deck is just... Augh!
Grief needed to go alongside fury. Fury, at least for me, was only a real problem after grief robbed me of my two best cards slowing me down and making my creatures far more important
Fury was absolutely brutal to x/1's. It also made for a very real clock with the +1/+1 counter from Not Dead After All on a double striker. So.... basically, Scam lost nothing since it can just play Orcish Bowmaster and Persist/Troll for the same effects?
@@derekcline950 the issue is that fury gave them a secondary battle plan that doubled as a late game clincher.
However the late game clincher would be less devastating if you didn't lose your two best cards first only to have your remaining cards either nuked or just outclassed by a 2-3 turn clock.
It is a 4 card combo that doesn't win the game.
Having it happen turn 1 or 2? Absolutely miserable to have happen to me. Having it happen turn 4 or 5? It's a big nothing sandwich because hand hate gets exponentially worse as the game goes on.
But with fury, it is not only a backbreaking early play, but late play as well. It is good from not only ahead, but behind as well. It is just the de-facto best possible play in any situation. Grief does not command that level of ubiquitous power, it has a window, and when it closes, it's a terrible thing to have in your hand.
@@0zzmium I wouldn't call it a combo, but that aside, the consistency of having either an explosive start or killing your opponents momentum is the issue. That coupled with the cleanup you can do after killing their momentum is why the deck was a problem
might be better off banning all mh2 elementals instead of skewing the metagame in favor of 3 colors
You punted at 36:55 but the opponent didn't see/punish it. They could have activated the Blinkmoth to pump the construct up 4/4.
U should try the persist +trumpeting carnosaur version of B/R midrange too. I feel like you would like the play style 😄
Ohh, that sounds fun!
Have just gotten to the deck tech, and boy, is this a beauty.
First game against Eldrazi Tron is a good illustration of just how many broken cards there were in MH2. Opponent more or less won with two specific lands (Urza's Saga), didn't need to cast spells.
But lands that function as spells is how you beat counterspells and discard effects. Modern's problem is that they only have one good one in Urza's Saga and it is a slow card. They definitely could consider unbanning Dark Depths.
@@exposfan94movies Honestly, they should
@@RandomHobono absolutely not, if lands playing the dark depths combo is tier 1 in legacy where wasteland is a staple it’s going to be super problematic in a format without it
Reprieve to steal a turn is sweeet!
Modern's version of Dark Ritual + Hymn to Tourach + Thoughtseize, but this leaves a 3/2 Menace in play. So much fun as a play pattern.
You can't leave this powerful opening in a format without a true Force of Will.
At least it can’t hit lands
Some great words of wisdom around 29:38 :)
The first game against Tron was close they just drew insanely well after you got rid of all there cards
Haha always deflating when you thoughtseize their threats or ramp and they just go runner runner.
17:50 you could have blinked the troll and that would have let you kill opponent who was at exactly 9
Yeah, that would have been better. Good call!
Been so long since we see Seth play modern on Budget/Much/Against. Miss the days when we get one of each every week.
Same. I really miss him playing janky tribal decks. Now he just plays weird combo decks...much less fun to watch.
That’s because mtgo sucks
Seems like stoneforge mystic with kaldra compleat and stuff is probably better than the troll persist package. Helps to close out games quickly post scam
i love that idea. i'm always a sucker for stoneforge mystic though, lol.
Cauldron Haze might be interesting for this variant: Can be pitched to both elementals, can save a creature while double solituding at instant speed, might be neat.
Interesting but I think the jump from 1 to 2 mana is enormous in this deck.
@@mattm7798 I can’t imagine it as a replacement due to that, though maybe a sideboard plan against control.
I'm glad this archetype earned a name: I'd been wanting to build around those 1-2 mana 'black flickers" for a while.
Yes, finally some modern. Thank you!
I'd love to see an internal tournament of the banned decks in Modern history where the key cards for the decks are allowed. Think pod vs twin vs storm vs eldrazi, vs oko, vs hogak, vs scam. I think it would be very interesting to see how the "busted" decks from ten years ago hold up against current standards given all of the cards printed since most of these bannings.
Cardmarket basically did this. They took the best modern decks from its entire history and did a tournament with them. I won't spoil the winner in case you want to go and watch it, but it is a very good series of videos.
Damn Seth that SH eating grin after you stompped Tron
@mtggoldfish , You should do a video like this, but for the restricted list in Timeless ("Is Channel too powerful to restrict?" kind of a video). I have personally found that 1 [[Channel]] is still enough to reliably win on turn 2 or 3 if you have 8-ish tutors in your deck. I clean swept the Midweek Magic: Introducing Timeless event with just an absolute pile of whatever I had (with the game plan of channeling [[Realmbreaker, the Invasion Tree]]), so you could definitely plan some content around it if the games aren't too short.
Against tron, you can attack Karn then cast the Karn using Dauthi. It was a line in match 2, game 1.
I know you love the white counter....but is there potentially a more competitive card to run in its place? Format looks healthier, at least.
Urza's saga is an insane card. No nonland cards in hand and Urza's Saga claws the opp. back into the game
Urza saga may be the most powerful card in modern
Haha right, just ban all 10 of the top MH 1 and 2 cards played and the format would be 10x better, because MH brought some really cool cards to modern, just the really pushed ones ruin the format.
At least Ozhov is more lore appropriate to be running scams.
Rakdos would just take it from you no need to scam
Yo Seth, been inspired by a couple of your fling decks and I've been trying to pull it off in standard
Been playing: [Bloodletter of Aclazotz] + [Ziatora]
Made two brews so far:
1. Try and get the biggest [Thousand Sun's Smithy] golem possible and toss a single golem for lethal
2. Panharmonicon Dragon Tribal, grab the kamigawa spirit dragons (Tried a lot of combinations of them but settled on 4x red, 2x Green/black), 4x bonehoard dracosaur and 4 roaming thrones and take advantage of the on death trigger value
Very fun, very against the odds
Ohh, I might have to try this. That sounds sweet!
CannibusBoy has apparently never met an alt art they didn't love.
Okay grief was fun and all, but the troll plan was what i was all in on this video, janky reanimator against the odds next?
Wasn’t the first MH2 deck you played after it’s release something similar to this deck?
I wonder if that budget Historic Lingering Souls deck could be fun in Modern without Fury. Anthems or just going super wide seems to be able to deal with W+6 or Bowmasters, and otherwise the removal is just 1 for 1ing your stuff.
35:45 why did he not cast Mana Tithe targeting Chalice?
I think the swamp cycle troll is a bit hopeful and gets stuck in your hand a bit where you could swamp cycle it but it isn't really good. Maybe Malakir Rebirth as you can scam with it, pitch, or use it as a land if you have to. Even though it isn't the fastest, I think the stoneforge mystic package is good here as I see that the deck with white seems to get ahead but then at times suffers from individual cards not closing out the game. The other creatures already demand removal which takes heat off stoneforge. No fury makes stoneforge safer. The usual scam pieces are kind of decent cards to protect stoneforge from removal. The other parts of the deck are fast whereas stoneforge is card efficient.
When you play against tron You should always be destroying not the tower. The thought process there is to make them use the tower to crack maps or do whatever to reassemble tron but then the tower is tapped, when tower is the piece played to complete tron they have more mana than if it were a mine or plant, seems counter intuitive but this is my bad paraphrasing of Jim Davis explaining when he was still playing tron and modern in general
So in yuigoh there is a card called smoke grenade of the thief which when destroyed let's you send a card from your opponents hand to the graveyard. There was a combo deck that let you repeat this 3 to 5 times . It is still banned to this day. So it's easy to say having a deck that can discard just as much isn't good
I think maybe try mono black. The white didn’t seem too great anyways
17:53 for the easiest "how do you hit for lethal instead of activating castle" puzzle in the world.
I love opening up a vid and seeing this ms dos browser game.
The fact that Urza's Saga is still legal is absolutely baffling to me.
me aftering "lavinia"....."maybe we sac voidwalkee" (insert that pic of walt in the back of the suv)
We saw dauthi voidwalker cast an opponents ulamog in the finals of pro tour lord of the rings between calcano and Jake great match awesome play line against Tron from the scam deck #scamsnotdead
I don't know much if anything about Modern.. didn't expect Vindicate to be a good enough removal spell for this format, especially since it is a Sorcery.
Lands are enough of an issue in the format that a generic removal spell at three is good enough. Although in a lot of games I would expect it to be boarded out for better/more specific removal.
Did the same thing in pioneer hit karn and not nkytho's witch powers down but dose not kill TBH now karn is gone there are better ways to play it
That art in that tron deck….
Could we see an orzhov card that gives -X/-X to the board to mimic Fury and pitch to our elementals? Zealous persecution comes to mind.
I should read the ban announcement but my reasoning behind why ban fury and not grief: grief is always either a 2 for 1 or 3 for 2 on yourself. If the opponent top decks removal and it's even. Grief is hit by almost every removal in the format where fury dodged them.
Yeah, one of the big problems with scamming grief is that it's a powerfully proactive play using nominally reactive cards.
Mana tithe counter?
WotC be like "The One Ring is totally ok but Up The Beanstalk needs to be banned immediately"
ok buddies
Why mana tithe the crab? Couldve played solitude, pitch tithe, ephemerate and you get two kills and a creature
Your spacebar is very loud 😂
I very much agree with your assessment at the end. Fury was good and powerful but I think they should have hit Grief instead. Keep Modern powered Flametongue Kavu. All the talk about "now the small creature decks get to make a comeback" is pretty silly IMO. Yawgmoth gets to come back and it FEASTS on small creature decks. I'm not convinced they made the right choice in banning the fair card over the unfair card. Then again, there is a history of that in Modern where degenerate nonsense seems to thrive more often than not (look to Tron's continued existence over many many many years)
I feel like I like how they did the bans. Like they definitly made scam worse, but they didn’t just make it unplayable. Like I feel like scam is a fun deck that deserves to be tier 1
The Eldrazi Tron player had you dead in that third game a few different times. I suppose what you said about punting comes full circle, though. 🤷♂️
even if Scam isn`t as good when running Grief and Solitude, with the evoke cycle still in modern, sooner or later, wotc will print somethig that will make up for the lack of fury, perhaps with more card draw, more pitch spells etc. So Scam already has the foudnations for being a pusted "fair deck." With solitude and grief, Grief for dealing with the hand of the opponent and solitude to deal with the creatures of the opponent.
"its ok, theyre just topdecking with tron"
welcome back to modern seth...
21:12 this is the correct reaction whenever tron loses!!!!!!!
LAVINIA!!
Not just Tron but blinged out Tron
I played a modern FNM tonight and lost to Thragtusk while playing Scam...
I need more modern content! give it to me!
I would play a copy of the white Channel land (damn the spelling on that card)
But solid looking deck nonetheless
Can someone please explain why this deck is called scam?
because you're not paying the mana price for the elementals, and you can steal games by doing so, so you're 'scamming'
Yeah, the reason isn't a cool one like Tin Fins, or where "Goldfish" comes from. It just seems like you're being cheated when the opponent "scams" you...not super creative, but at least accurate?
Because you're playing Yugioh instead of MTG = too fast and too free
You're scamming the casting cost of cards and scamming wins from the opponent
2 players thought theyd be playing magic when in reality its 1 player and the other is top decking. If you watch his tron game that he loses. The opponent was top decking and got lucky vast majority of the time its just a loss
Nah.
Grief and Fury are both powerful, but the deck's ability to shred your hand and overpower the board (with the 8 damage of a scammed fury) was backbreaking. Grief often just gets outpaced on the board with a good hand or a decent draw. Now its a pretty good deck, but it doesn't decide the game on mulligans
It's not a Thoughtseize, it's a Pilfer or a Distress. No life needs to be paid here for the cascade of discard effects on the first turns. Paying 6 life for that kind of play pattern would make a difference in a lot of match-ups.
Ive been running something similar to this minus the mana tithe. Scam is just going to be b/w now
I really dont think Grief is an issue because its always putting you down more cards than your OP. On the other hand Fury was pretty much always a net positive exchange for whoever cast it
I was calling for Grief to get banned over Fury since the before the no-ban announcement a few months ago, but they went with Fury. I still think that was a mistake and I will stick to believing that.
I feel like everyone has blinders on, Fury was *the* ban target on everyone's mind, not because Scam was at the top of the meta, but because Fury was everywhere and completely dicked on X/1s.
They actually banned what everyone wanted gone without banning the deck.
I'd say yes but to be honest I'm surprised they banned what they did it made the formate healthier but not as good as they could have at least we don't gotta deal with fable scame anymore
What about mardu scam?
Lavinia is the best 2 mana hate bear ever printed
I feel like the deck kinda lacks power. When you scam fury you get a 4/4 double striker, which is actually a really good body, 3 turn clock on its own. Scamming solitude with ephemerate leaves behind a 3/2 lifelinker, which is an 7+ turn clock, since it also gains life for the opponent. This pile is a lot more like traditional control, but without the good counterspells, so a lot less protections against instants and sorceries.
I think the deck needs some better strategy to close out the game. Since the deck does so much less damage, the oponent can just draw back and rebuild from the 3x grief.
17:45 you coulda ephemerated troll to hit for nine the next turn
I’ve been saying this even before they banned. They needed to ban both. As much as I wanted fury not to go. But fury and grief both needed to go.
Pretty telling on the ineptitude of WotC when the most obvious card of the Scam deck dodges the ban. Makes me curious if MH3 has the 5 evoke elementals and they are trying to avoid having to ban as many elementals as possible because often, when a brand new card(like Hogaak) isn't a key part of the deck, they just ban the most obvious card of the deck so they don't have to ban twice. MH2 has been out for a while so they've largely made most of the money they will off it so a Fury + Grief ban is pretty safe financially unless those cards will be reprinted soon.
You should play twiddle storm in moderne blue red
It appears to me that, without Fury as the backup scam target, Scam decks really do get much worse because they need the faster clock to capitalize on the tempo advantage of a scam. Grief is still not fun, Scam might still be too viable for health/fun of the format, and I'd be happy to see it gone just because, but Orzhov Scam is definitely a worse gameplan than Rakdos Scam.
This deck needs a few liliana of the veil
I think scam as we know it is actually dead. HOWEVER, I think this Orzhov flicker package centered around the ever-abusive pitch elementals is a very real thing that might be more powerful than B/R scam in a meta where scam doesn't exist. The awkward part of this list, as correctly identified, was the fact that solitude can't close games anywhere NEAR as brutally fast as the rakdos package that included fury and bloodtithe and Voidwalker and Stoopid Monkey. What it can do, however, is G R I N D.
Reprieve can ship big spells back to hand making them vulnerable to midgame grief flickers, the addition of White answers big midgame threats far better than Red can, and most importantly traditional scam being removed from the metagame means more or the the only fast deck it has to contend with is Delver, another deck that will sorely feel the loss of Fury. So ditch the void walkers, ditch the mana tithes (they're cute, but no) maybe even the vindicates?, ADD SHEOLDRED (a miser copy that you never drew doesn't count as running it), find some card advantage (the biggest downside of running white), and generally go up the curve. We've seen Elish Norn absolutely dumpster beanstalk moneypile decks and the W/B flicker-scam is a natural home for it.
With some tuning, this might be a real force in the modern midrange value dumpster.
I will say this deck did struggle more against multiple creatures and closing the game opposed to Rakdos scam.
Without Fury the click for closing out the game is slower, that's for sure.
The troll persist thing does not seem worth it here in the slightest.
If they ban grief instead of fury there'll be a very fast evoke boros burn scam
My thoughts: “doesn’t Lavinia stop Voidwalker?”
Seth: “I think we’ve got this one… I’ll sac the Voidwalker…”
Lavinia: “I’m about to end this man’s whole career…”
Not playing tidehollow schuller so you can go t1 grief into schuller feels wrong tbh.
Someone plays the one ring, I scoop by default.
It’s almost as if wizards has been making cards that go against the “spirit of the game” for years
My take on this is that wizards did not make a mistake. Scam is kind of a combo deck and as for play pattern of getting thoutseized while annoying is not meta breaking. Hell, people found bogles to have a really annoying play pattern at one point. Wizards goal is not to ban everything people find annoying but rather make the format a playground for a variety of different decks. The problem was that fury was pushing out a ton of aggro archetypes out of the format which is why that is what should have been banned. Banning grief would just make the entire archetype obsolete and if we start banning entire archetypes cuz we don’t like to play against it everyone would have the same deck of generic creatures with no one able to have fun with their own unique tastes of what they find fun
Fury was really a problem. It worked well not just with scam strategies. It could be played in control, jeskai, beanstalk, rhinos. To me that was the issue..not the scam deck.