Decreasing players per team limits hero selection even further. If OW was a 1v1 game, the only hero that would ever get picked would be Tracer. As a former MT player, I just can't do it in OW2, it feels awful when you aren't allowed to play heroes you want because if you do it's a throw. Whereas, with the OT role in the game it allowed some flexibility for the MT pick. Although, I will say playing DPS and support feels better to me. I think the best solution would have been to separate tank role into MT and OT, this would avoid the double shield cancer. To do this they would have to keep tank as a singular role queue though, because queue times would be even more terrible. Side note, all invuln abilities should be gutted with the exception of ults (i.e. Transcendence). Also, as long as discord exists in it's current state, MT will always feel trash to play without any support from an OT to peel for you.
It's hilarious how they went to 5v5 to fix the poor balancing of 6v6 with double shield and oppressive tanks, only to end up creating an even worse situation for the tank role. What a dog shit company that continually makes OW a worse game patch by patch lol
I agree Overwatch is better 6v6 like it was originally designed for, 5v5 just makes the game more about winning the 1v1 matchups and less about teamplay.
And the 1v1 match up are so unbalanced too. U cant kill a tank as any character and if a support pops their entire kit on u as a dps u lose 90%of the time. Whenever i play tank i can take 1v1s standing still and still come out on top because of my insane stat advantage, and whne im support if i wanted to i cud be very selfish with my cooldowns and win any 1v1 against a dps unless its a one shot hero haha
You're correct, but most players solo queue, which is literally better to have more 1v1 or solo carry potential...I could play out of my mind in ow1 and still lose the fucking game bc someone on my team is doing nothing, which can completely negate my efforts. So you are right, but at the end of the day, overwatch is not good as a "team" game. Being more reliant on your team to win games is god awful, and tbh I think players who want that are just bad at the game. If you dont want pressure on you to win the game and perform well, you're simply not good at the game or you just dont fit into a competitive environment. if you're confident in your abilities, you should absolutely want more control over the outcome of the match without worrying about your teammates. Overwatch 2 achieves that very much so right now. I 4 stack with my friends, and a few of them dont have much time in the game and aren't super good yet. I've found that no matter what role I play, I can still carry the game. This wasn't possible in overwatch 1. If I stacked w my friends in ow1, we'd lose p much every single time no matter how well I played. We'd finally win games once our MMR dropped low enough
@@masift1494why not play a fighting game if you don't want to play a game where you have to use the skills required to work as a team? I don't mean this in a rude way either but I was just curious with the comment of implying people that want to work as a team are worse at the game than people who don't.
I’d rather have the old triple tank meta i largely lost interest way back when they made it to where you couldn’t switch from dps to off tank to support I don’t think overwatch has been as fun since I get it was for balance but the wacky combinations you would come across added a lot of variety to competitive
Summary: 1. 5v5 removes depth and skill ceiling 2. With no tank to peel supports have gotten op (immortalities and mobility) 3. Aoe healing (brig) makes things unkillable 4. Many tanks weren’t designed for 5v5 making tank role feel bad Also maps feel empty without 6th tank I hope one day Blizzard bites their pride and tests out 6v6 again
Saddest part for me was that me and my friend played tank duo together for years, we had a lot of combos and synergy together and all of that got removed.
It's not just the saddest part, its the part that actually matters. No amount of game balance can fix removing a friend from your team. I'd rather the game be in eternal goats with 6 Brigs as long as my friends still played.
@@lastdayer101 True, no matter how bad the comps got you were still able to offset the terribleness of what you were up against by being able to play with your friend
This 100% I had thousands of hours on Tank. Played Rein, Dva, and Zarya the most and would duo with a friend it was always fun. Now when your group plays I'm the only tank and it feels empty like even when I win it doesn't feel like I got to work together. I get propped up by good supports and just do my thing. No fun double bubble, no fun dive comps, no fun brawl comps. It's sad. Tank with a friend was the best part of Overwatch and always will be.
@@hinatasninetailedfox its very true, tanks had a lot of synergy with eachother, and in the past, even if your healers were bad you and the other tank could work together to try and offset that difference, but now the tank is at the mercy of the supports half the time.
Huge part. I met a ton of good friends i still play (other) games with from playing tank duo's. Like a good amount. Between this and the removal of the post match time to chat, ive met like one person playing OW2
Overwatch 2 was marketed around this fabled, highly-replayable PvE mode that they ended up cancelling. The PvP direction shift from 6v6 to 5v5 made me quit Overwatch PvP. The cancellation of the PvE gave me no incentive to return to the game either. So right now, Overwatch is nothing but a memory to me. I'd rather have Overwatch 1 in a perpetual content-draught with only minor balance changes every now and then, than whatever we ended up getting.
Wow same here exactly I wonder how much of the community dropped after ow1 Switch to 2 cuz the writing on the wall. And just feeling like all the fun you had might not translate. Becoming more busy etc had no motivation to grind 5v5. Like samito said it was so fixable too. The main problem was they stopped focusing on the game itself. And instead of trying to focus comp for the sweats they tried to appeal it for casuals too while moving on to working on “ow2”. Ngl it wasn’t perfect but I was still having a lot of fun at the end of ow1 life cycle. This is just a sad mutation of stuff no one wanted. Even the campaign peeps got the short end of the stick. OW1 will always have so much nostalgia for me and the community I made. They just stopped making content for it
Agree. I do enjoy some of the changes, some of the reworks work, and some of the new heroes would be fun in OW2. I think Doom and JQ could use an off tank. Ram is a true solo tank.
Agree. And agree OP@@mossup- . I feel like streamers just play a different version of the game than the rest of us. I feel like 6v6 made some healthier diamond and masters games.
General 6v6 create more wild moments which are good for the channels, watching old Lucio doing their funni in the backline is way more entertaining than seeing him constantly diving like a mad lad
I've literally been saying this since OW2 launched, it seemed so obvious to me but I've probably received 1000s of downvotes by now from all the denialists who actually don't understand game balance but only think "its better now" because there is actually being added content again after years of dry soup.
@@whosurjustin nothing dies in 5v5 unless everybody dumps every cooldown they have. thats not an fps(overwatch was never a shooter in the first place) anymore, that's a moba.
@@whosurjustin LMAO Overwatch is supposed to be a MOBA type FPS. OW2 is basically a CoD deathmatch with MOBA elements and it's cheesy and cheap. Nothing that is META rn takes any kind of skill. I don't think I have ever had genuine fun playing OW2 compared to when I played OW1 back in 2017-2021 when I was even arguably worse than I am now.
Man I really miss 6v6, I fell off OW2 around Sep '22, mainly because I loved the tank role but they really killed it for me by introducing only one tank. Mainly playing Rein, Roadhog, Zar, DVA and when needed Orisa/Winston, I enjoyed supporting my team where they needed it (if supports need peel, need to rush, need to dive, etc.) It just feels off playing one tank and having teammates heavily blame the majority of losses on a singular Tank.
Tank main here Low Masters/High Diamond in OW1. I agree 100%. You have so many less options now with one tank. If they have a pesky widow and your DPS can't contest do you leave your entire team to contest her as DVA and hope they don't get walked over or do you stay in the front contest their Frontline and let widow just kill them for free? You have two choice no sending your off tank to draw aggro creating space and shifting the focus in a fight. Game feels emptier and less rewarding now.
I wish blizzard had the balls to put a playlist for 6v6 and let the ow community decide what was better for the game. Most tanks are cool, just need to lower shields hp and regular health. But blizzard is stubborn and would never let it happen.
Ow well the wide dude streamer did a 6v6 customs and flamed 6v6 the whole time...........but now sings that 5v5 is boring. So Blizz won't bcoz him and his click say 5v5 is more fun
5v5 right now is being ruined by the support role. All the biased support mains complain that they have it the hardest, but really it’s dps and especially tanks that are suffering. Support has so much utility and healing that their all basically better dps. Bap literally does more damage that Cass. Because of all the power creep in damage and heals, Tank is left utterly defenseless and with a miserable experience. Now all the negative effects like discord, hack, and all the ccs just get sent at the tank and there is nothing they can do without an off tank. Yes support is undoubtedly the easiest and most OP role in the game, it’s not even close.
I was a tank player for the whole of Overwatch 1. Overwatch 2 came out and I didn’t even make it through season 1 playing tank without completely quitting the game. Every game was so boring because no matter what you did tank always just became a rock paper scissors scenario where if you don’t swap you just lose. I recently came back because I had friends that wanted to play and after trying tank again I still hate playing it even if it’s easily my best role.
its still like this. go dva. zarya. go orisa. zarya. go zarya. rein. its literally just rock paper scissors now. you have to be so much better against the person whos countering you to even stand a chance.
@@alicenull807I only play doom when I play tank, and this season I only play doom in qp. I don’t enjoy any other tank besides rein so I normally jump don’t play comp tank.
My conspiracy theory is that the switch to 5v5 was a business decision because they needed a strong differentiation between OW1 and OW2, specially after they knew PvE was gonna be delayed and cancelled and there would essentially be no good reason for a sequel anymore. Now that decision has ruined everything I loved about this game. I stuck with OW1 all the way to the end and used to play about five hours every night with friends. This month I’ve only logged in twice, and it wasn’t for long.
@@bunnyflop3126 If that ends up to be the reason theyre idiots Hmm i wonder why is Sigma/Orisa so OP, they only have the longest Range on Tank with high damage, they also have rechargable shields. What you broke the Shields? Well Orisa now takes 50% less damage and Sigma sucks everything up Like... just nerf their sustain so dive becomes a counter to 2x Shield and were good, not that hard.
The crazy part about double shielding in OW1 is that Blizzard actually did find a solution to the problem, and that was a reworking for characters. I mean look at Orisa, she use to be a shield tank then got a whole rework that made her a brand new character. Had they just kept reworking shields (not necessarily get rid of them). Then they wouldn't have been a need to get rid of a extra role but then when Blizzard found an answer to the problem the created a new one and here we are.
I've said it since launch, and many people would just brush me off as someone who was afraid of change. Overwatch 2 hasn't gotten me the same level of enjoyment as OW1 did
I always thought this decision was 100% a move to make queue times faster. I'd like to think they ran some models and discovered that queues would drop if one less player was needed. However, this does not seem to be the case at higher ELOs.
@SamitoFPS I just wanted to say thank you for being a voice for 6v6. My respect for you has really grown over the years and it was great to hear your thoughts here and in SVBs podcast. We at least need it as an arcade mode
6v6 was never an issue. I knew this from the start. The issue was not adding restrictions to eliminate issues like double shield. With the CC reduction, a lot of balance changes, and adding a few restrictions, 6v6 would've been better than this mess where supports have to be op so they don't feel too vulnerable, and the one tank gets to be bulled 24/7. The change to 5v5 has also only served to add even more balancing challenges, as you said. This makes it feel like time spent on balancing could've been dedicated elsewhere or at least to deliver a better state of the game than what we've been getting.
@r4nowo so your reasoning for 6v6 being worst is because of the wait times?...-_- get outta here dude, and don't come back until you have a legitimate and valid argument on the topic
@@stompingthegods5886 why isn’t it a valid reason? Waiting 30+ min isnt a good gameplay experience no matter how you slice it. If that lasted the game would die off entirely, have fun playing 1v0
@r4nowo I never even experienced 30-minute wait times in ow1, so I don't even know what you're talking about. 10-15 mins is the most I've ever had to wait for. But Even *IF* 6v6 had a 30 min wait time in any of the roles like u say, I'd rather wait to have a quality, fun well-balanced match than to hop into an unbalanced, boring one-sided match any day of the week
As always, Samito with the God takes. I've been saying it for years, if the devs had just accepted Samito as a balancing advisor, the game would've been amazing
Pretty much all top 500 content creators have very good takes on balance. I'm not saying they're 100% right on everything, flats was definitely very wrong about ball at OW2 launch, but the balance team is incredibly stupid to not take their advice seriously. Just because you have the title of "overwatch balance team" doesn't mean you understand the game better than the people who play it for a living.
@@paladinmatt1697 they never claim to understand it better than the content creators but we all know what Samito would try to influence. He wants nerfs to brig and Moira and hit scans. His opinions alone should not be the only influence.
Another issue: the way DLC support ults are designed is adding to the overall power creep issues. Damage creep is made much worse by utility ults (e.g. nano, window, Kitsune) massively buffing damage output & messing with breakpoints. They also indirectly contribute to sustain creep by pushing support's "lifesaver" abilities into their base kits. Making teammates immortal used to be reserved for the support's ultimate ability, which made them feel much fairer to play against since they didn't come up as often and you knew that the support had to _earn_ their lifesaver moment.
I mean hell; even TF2 knew to give dmg buffs to only one ability or aspect in their games even like the buffalo stake making Heavy do mini crits on his punches.
@@soundrogue4472TF2 is far from being balanced, but unbalanced things there are nowhere near as annoying or game breaking as they are in OW And even then, a lot of those are unbalanced just because players have many years of no balance changes whatsoever and could test out how every weapon fair in each situation. The difference between Overwatch and Team Fortress 2 is that every weapon in TF2 is meant to be sidegrade to stock. Nothing is supposed to be straight up upgrade. It works for 90% of times, but since weapon is only one of many aspects of character you play, it doesn't feel too bad. Overwatch is trying to make sure every character is unique. They'll never dare to take away or change unique mechanic that hero possesses. That's why if one hero has an ability that's either too oppressive, or too useful, they'll either be needed to ground, or will dominate everyone. And that oppressiveness is felt much more since you can't customise the character, you pick either someone too useful, or too useless. Lack of balance is felt here way much more.
The change to 5v5 was Blizzard's admission that they had no real idea on how to balance tanks or supports for a healthy 6v6 environment. Every meta in Overwatch 1's lifespan was tank or support-centric.
And we saw how bad the DPS centric meta was, both with Sojourn and Widowmaker. And now, with their buffs for supports like Bap and heroes like Kiriko and Illari, it’s even more support centric.
Double sniper has entered the chat. Mei reaper has joined the channel. Pharmercy has sauntered into the sauna. Ana genji has entered the chat. There were a lot of very common comps that had nothing to do with the tanks played. Also I wonder how people explain all the bronze to top 500 dps content that happened. Sure tank comps were important, but unless you were up against OWL contenders or maybe a few of the top 500 games, there were plenty of other viable comps that were played.
Been saying the same thing about 5v5. 6v6 just needed a little more tweaking but now we are starting all over from the beginning with a bad foundation for enjoyable gameplay. Blizzard will take a big PR hit swapping back but it NEEDS to happen for the game to last as a comp game.
I completely agree with the tank points about options. I watched Yeatle's video as well, and a lot of the Ball points apply to Winston (in non-OWL/Top 500 play). A lot of players don't know how to dive, so you have these weird interactions where you're having a good game and getting the backline but getting flamed for not protecting your DPS. And now especially you can't kill anyone.
The biggest issue switching to 5 created was it destroyed creativity in terms of team comps. The fact that blizzard was incapable of balancing around player creativity and adapting to in in a way that was good for the longevity of the game is why it died. Blizzard has always been narrow in terms of it's balance, across all of it's IP. One of it's fatal flaws. edit: to be clear I'm also talking about lack of role q.
I’ve been saying this since day 1. More content creators need to address this or needed to long ago. I enjoyed Horizon Lunar Colony, Anubis and 2CP more than push or flashpoint. Less is not more!
A common Samito W. I respect that you were willing to be patient, but I saw this coming from the announcement. I was the only one in my friends' group that said 5v5 would destroy any level of competitive value the game held. I stood by while everyone including many content creators mocked my stance. It's nice to see someone finally come around and realize what I saw coming a mile away. The removal of off-tank is the removal of any realistic team play. The off-tank was the role that did everything, filled every hole and required the main tank to hold the space provided or to take the space while they held it. That synergy was what made Overwatch the game of the year. It was magic. it's why everyone hated open queue, because when you had less than 2 tanks the game was trash. Supports needing to compensate for the loss of the off-tank role has ruined any level of balance the game will ever see. If healers are strong, tank and dps feel awful. If healers are weak, tank feels disgusting and impossible to play, while DPS is okay. It's a no win scenario in any balance state, outside of some mythical balance ideal that cannot exist with the new heros consistently being added. I don't have any hope for Overwatch ever being a game worthy of praise again, and sadly I barely play now. From the absolute god-tier teamplay gameplay of overwatch 1, to the deathmatch garbage heap that is overwatch 2 is a long and sad fall from grace. With the magic gone, I don't ever enjoy my plays of the game or whatever else. The fun aspects that remain feel numb and tainted. I understand a lot of this is dramatic, but these are my genuine feelings. I genuinely am jealous of anyone that enjoys 5v5, I will probably mourn 6v6 for some time. Overwatch was my go to game, now it's just very rare that I even think about it. I thought about un-subbing to overwatch content just to forget it ever existed.
Bro same, i love OW still and i wish i could enjoy 5v5 but its just so fucking trash No doubt in my mind if OW 5v5 released in 2016, less people would have liked it Well i guess its time to let go my favourite game that brought me joy for 6+ years, if they bring it back, even if its only a like 5% chance of happening, i will grind agan though
@@SpekUL8Games Lets see how long this game "thrives". Since youre a new player, ill let you smoke the copium that Blizzard is able to sustsain a game Small hint, Supports being OP as fuck and essentially better DPS, Counterswaping, Snipers/1 Shots being OP, Currently not addressing Ranked, no incentive to play (Except BP if you count that lol), etc. Im sorry all OW1 players sound so depressed, but we just cant not compare it to OW2, which overall is just a downgrade in every aspect except amount of content they release Good for you that you enjoy it, but lets see if you care enough to play it for 6+ Years, through shit metas and 3 Years of 0 Content
@@jyrlan2596 When was this? 5 Months ago (and as far as i know, regularly now) Apply does 6v6 Customs and has said he likes it way more than 5v5 Dont know if he changed his mind again, but i saw him Cast Viewer Games and play Viewer 6v6 Games and he enjoyed it a lot.
Watching this video made me realize how much gameplay, identity, and synergies we lost transitioning from 6v6 to 5v5 and it just makes me sad. You know for sure they will never walk back on this because of the invested dev time and that it would take admitting that they were wrong. I really miss the off tank role.
What dev time? Typing [DELETE] in the tank field and changing some numbers in a spread sheet? They wont change because they're incompetent developers now
I am a tank player and I prefer 6v6. I joined shortly after bap released. I like 6v6 more but I did enjoy the way tank felt with 5v5. I miss having another tank which is why I play more open que. Most characters feel better, I think I am only happy with doom as a tank if he has his mobility and fluidity. Also I do not like the empowered fist and find the punch hitting extra people to just be cheese and would rather just hit harder.
Dude I know right… I was like wait how is this any better when he would get the charge punch on entire teams in early OW2. Like you wouldn’t even be the one who messed up and gave him LOS yet you may die for it.. and as a Doom I think it just felt weird and lame farming the punch to have any power it just added an extra step. I like the playstyle too but couldn’t they have just nerfed the punch damage and gave him like 300hp and let us keep uppercut? Also new slam is just way noobier and if I remember correctly they even made punch charge up faster whereas before Doom was more vulnerable and needed more time in OW1.
It's funny to me that the reasons they removed 6 v 6 were deleted from the game and they still decided on removing it. I think that one of the reasons that 6 v 6 was removed was 2cp, maps that the defenders were heavily skewed to win with how spawn points worked and the abilities that allowed unkillable sustain characters to be rampant. With 2cp removed I honestly think that a major pain point for 6 v 6 was removed and the devs could've continued onwards with it, albeit with some balance changes but if they just stuck with it, I think the game would now be in a much healthier state.
100% correct on everything. I think the only way the game can be saved is to go back to 6v6. The sad part is that the game will have to almost be completely dead for them to admit their mistake and make the necessary changes.
They're probably just going to shut the game down in that case. Triple A game development isn't about love and care anymore. It's about profit margins and abandoning projects before the sunk cost catches up. ActiBlizzion could care less if they deleted thousands of people's hours and progress if they're saving money and face.
Sam. I’m one of the ones who has given a lot of critical feedback over the last year. This video is exactly why I fell in love with your channel originally. Appreciate the great perspective without the emotion. This video was well thought out and extremely well presented. Thank you!
I hate these types of responses. "your video was so nice and I like the things you said" Wtf? come on man, maybe have a snippet of that and then add your thoughts on the topic itself?
@@jerbsherb4391 sometimes you have to give general positive feedback when you’ve given critical feedback in the past. This comment wasn’t for you but thanks for commenting.
I'm a Lucio main. The move to 5v5 is the singular reason I stopped playing OW shortly after 2 came out and the points you listed here were exactly my concerns (and eventually complaints) about the move. Lucio was always more than just DPS in OW1. In 6v6, core components of Lucio were tempo control of the battle, shaping enemy formations, and harass/protection of the backlines. With the knockback reduction on a buffed singular tank. You're now pretty much forced into a role that's almost exclusively DPS-focused. If I only wanted to play a DPS character, I'd play DPS. Lucio's constant battle condition assessment of the match as you fly around it kept your mind constantly working on information prioritization. You had to juggle attention between the large scale strategy/positioning and micro. In other words your ability to play a rounded Lucio effectively entailed trying to maintain full map awareness while also spotting and prioritizing diving into short engagements, teammate saves, and frontline actions. These decisions all had to take place while you're a high value target that multiple people are trying to kill; forcing you to have to weigh moment-to-moment decisions about whether you should take a line which is optimal for you (speed/exposure/pick opportunities/exit-options) or lines which are optimal for your team (AoE coverage/saves). The 5v5 format de-prioritized this aspect of his role into the ground.
As a former tank player the reason I have lost enjoyment and stopped playing tank is the stress and pressure put onto me. It makes me anxious and feels more like a chore to play tank at this point. Plus can’t forget about the extra toxicity towards tanks now. Bring back 6v6
I think the biggest issue right now is the impact of support CD's. Abilities like anti, sleep, immo, suzu, grip, damage boost, and discord, are disproportionately easy to use for the value they obtain, while being stacked on heroes that are able to go blow for blow with many DPS, some of whom have the best mobility in the game, and nearly all of whom have the best ults in the game. Ironically, I think this is an issue for supports as well - "With great power comes great responsibility". Supports are constrained by their own strength - because the other support is also so powerful, you're now confined into particular playstyles that don't just encourage, but actually demand, that you assist your team. Compare this to DPS and Tank - they're generally able to play much more selfishly than supports are. Their abilities are generally for themselves first, and their team second. In a mirror of Ana's, if one of them is forced to use sleep or anti on themselves, but the other is able to use it on the tank - the other Ana will win the majority of those encounters. Sleep and anti are so powerful, particularly against a solo tank, that you almost have to use it aggressively. This creates tedious playstyles which revolve around support cooldowns, and which then require prioritizing support picks above all else - and consequently, it makes it so many tanks and DPS are held hostage by their supports, forced to be puppeteered around like you and Flats said. Think of how many heroes can't be buffed because of how damage boost or nano interact with them. Think of how many tanks get shut down if they have an Ana and you don't have a Kiri - and then think about how the Kiri is now being forced to play to counter their Ana so that their tank can actually participate. And there are so many examples of this. I think the support category, combined with the lack of overall changes to heroes when we shifted to 5v5, are the primary source of friction in the game right now.
This; people (especially support players which is ironic because i only play support and dps, and support is my most played role) always get mad when i explain why as a tracer, is harder to stick someone and is stupidly easy for a kiriko or a bap to deny it, because they of course like to argue that if you as tracer are sticking someone while suzu or lamp are not on a cd, thats on you, but the issue remains; why the one who has to actually practice and develop a skill such as sticking a pulse bomb accordingy (and if someone is stupid enough to tell me its not that hard to stick one, i dare you to try it yourself so you can taste just how "easy" it is) is the one to blame when someone can just deny it with an ability on a cd? yeah i know you have to time it, but tracer's ult is one that is forgiving with it because it has a bigger window of opportunity to use suzu in comparison with shatter or blossom (unless the reaper is silver or stupid enough to send an email telling you they are gonna ult), or even a dva bomb, not saying its the easier ult but it sure is compared to others, tire also comes to mind. So no, the moment they allowed an ability on a low cd compared to others like sleep, that cant be destroyed like lamp be capable to deny ults with such low effort is when this game has become so unsatisfying and frantic
_"....forced to be puppeteered aroundl ike [Samito] and Flats said"..._ Putting Samito next to a known liar who participated in the rug-pull of PVE like Flats is incredibly disrespectful.
No no no...according too the 2 tons of fun streamer that watches roles for a sandwhich instead of rolling for a salad said "it's the higher ups not the devs" so your wrong it's not the devs fault and we should feel for them...they hate making the game apparently but love taking our money, so feel bad for them
@@Flightkid90 ??? it literally is the higher ups what are you waffling on about. also the random assholery about flats??????????? ???? what are you ON about
How to fix ow2's Gameplay: 1-Go back to 6v6 2-remove role passives 3-go back in some reworks(mei, cass, sombra, orisa, doom) 4-delete push bring back 2cp at least for qp
Push is so much better than 2cp lmao that shit was cancer also all the reworks they did were good especially orisa, doom, and cass. Having double shield comps was a big reason Ow1 fell apart it was just boring to play against double shield
@@majicconch7104 For me 2cp was better, the reworks for some characters felt good but for the most of them it just ruined their entire gimmick, and double shield wasn't a 6v6 problem it was a balance problem. But that's just my opinion you can have yours.
@@majicconch7104 doom rework is awful, cree stun was honestly not even as bad as his current one, and if we went back to 6v6 cree stun and dps doom would fit back in 100x better. Orisa is fine how she is now ability wise, too strong rn but fine, she could've been balanced out for sure to remove hard double sheild meta. Mei is the only rework I actually think is genuinely good. As for 2cp and push, its hard to argue which one is more shit, Id say push is worse but I think thats just up to the individual. I dont think you can factually say that doom is better now, hes been gutted as a hero, hes boring to play most of the time and not really fun to play against either, but I think thats more of a 5v5 problem than a doom problem tbh.
At least with Push you get to actually have team fights, even if you need to win 2-3 of them to catch up. 2CP was just 4 mins of teammates walking in 1 by 1, so you never actually have a team fight because you needed to work as a team, which obviously never happened@@alicenull807
I think the support passive is an insane contribution to the game. Before most supports had to have SOME sort of self-healing ability. By giving supports the role passive, it's opened up supports to have that 1 extra button of utility because they don't need to worry about healing themselves as much anymore. Instead of needing a regen burst button, kiriko can have swift step on top of her wall climbing. Somehow LW ran out of buttons despite having a support passive. They're too overkitted and opening up that extra button by not needing a self heal option has given them a whole extra option to have yet more utility added to their kit.
Yea the role passives are awful features that just bloated the game's stats. Some characters greatly benefit from it more than others (Winston with damage reduction, Kiriko having self-sustain on top of insanely strong utility, pre-nerf Genji where he basically couldn't be hit because of how fast he was) and it just adds more issues than it fixes.
I’m so glad to hear you talk about these problems. All the problems are from no second tank. It’s a fact, because if tanks just die like they should from dps then all the tank players will leave. You can’t die on cooldown so heals have to go up then damage which gets high damage to be meta but you just stand there hoping to kill the tank. It’s way too much
@@nathancasey7712not so sure, there's alot of 5v5 enjoyers out there and will tell us that we are on some high grade cope. And their argument is almost always double shield (fixable btw)
@@ZZHawkshow? They could just keep the numbers for 6v6 separate from 5v5 numbers. Like 99% of the work for 6v6 balancing has already been done so they can copy off of it and reap the success like they’ve done for pretty much all of ow2
@@SpiritedFalconTrue hahahah I used to be a bit on the OW Forum, people blaming 2x Shield were 90% of the time fucking gold - plat. Buddy, you never ever played correct 2x Shield just shut up, only because big streamer has to play it, doesnt mean it affects you.
6v6 was way better! I'm also a Dva main. Have been for many years. But now in 5v5, Dva is one of the easiest tanks in game to hard counter with just another tank. Not to mention sym, mei ect overkill. With 6v6, there was alot more options and viability in the tank picks and less rock paper scissors counter pick game. I forced myself to learn more tanks because of 5v5s dva being so hard countered. And now play other tanks more than my own main simply because I am forced too within the fist few min of a game. Also my friend and I used to duel tank and was the most fun we had in OW. which we obviously can't do now.
Something else I noticed is that as a dive enjoyer, I used to target supports more than anyone else. Now it's dps first, then chase or kill supports, then maybe eventually kill the tank. Any other order often feels like way more effort. Tanks are really hard to kill, and supports are too while they have abilities,but you can chase them away.
In college. I was depressed and I spent maybe a thousand hours or something crazy like that playing overwatch. It was my biggest savior on those lonely nights. I can’t even play more than one quick play match. Also I had almost every skin. When they did all this weird account merging and switching I lost everything. Everything and honestly at this point don’t care to get it back. I can’t stand playing tank anymore and somehow feel guilty constantly playing dps. It’s weird this game has become a big lesson in greed. Standing on a billion dollars, each for $5 more and watch it all crumble at a pace you couldn’t dream of. This is crazy.
I enjoyed 6v6 so much more. It felt very balance actually, and you were able to cover for your teammates a lot more since you have an extra tank. Plus people who had a whole group of 6, couldn't play anyone that was sad. I really miss 6v6.
Tank was a slippery slop in ow1 - it was all fun and dandy when you had unique comps like Zarya+Road, but then you play comp where there's Orisa+Sigma or Rein+Orisa and you do nothing but shoot barriers for 10 minutes.
Well, last time Flats, SVB, Ml7 and Freedo all said they prefer 5v5 and that 6v6 would bring nothing to the table I need samito in there to hear their points, because everything in this video counters everything that someone who prefers 5v5 would say Except that OW2 has faster gameplay or more carry potential, but tbh if i wanted that id play a different game 6v6 was just so special
I mean I really enjoy all the power creep that Lucio got coming in to Overwatch 2! Wait, what do you mean he just got nerfed? I have to swap to Kiriko most of the time so I'm not at an inherent disadvantage in solo que? Oh.. ok..
I will never get why they had to make the game 5v5 because you are losing one tank and some of these tanks aren't meant for the frontline. I hope they smell the roses and revert the change back to 6v6.
Great takes! You've changed my mind! The one main thing that bothered me with 6v6 as a tank player was that the tank synergy meta comps were so religiously believed by our terribly toxic playerbase, that if you picked tank second and didn't complete the matching pair, then teammates would whine and throw... degrading match integrity. I hoped and believed that OW2 would allow me to finally freely pick my tank without pairing pressure. However 1) OW2 at launch tank queue was too popular because everyone wanted to be the big badass and it was easy to feel good cause no one knew how to play 5v5, so I never got to play tank 2) and now here we are that no one plays tank because everyone figured out how to focus the tank down making it very difficult to finish anyone off, and no paired tank to share the matches with All your points are spot on. We really deserve a proper attempt at rebalancing 6v6. And the skill ceiling and strategies and opportunities all lowered because of simple math of having less combinations.
I’ve always thought what they should’ve done was keep 6v6 in open Q, that way the older players who prefer not to play role Q, and prefer 6v6, would be happier. I think differentiating between the two competing modes would make the game better and unique. Maybe two different metas in two different modes. Would be super interesting in to watch imo. I still like 5v5 and role Q, but that’s just my personal take :)
I think 6v6 would feel a lot better with the current roster of heroes. With the roster getting larger it actually makes more sense to have 1 more role. Would also reduce que times. I argued the original model would have been more fun with the addition of a 3rd dps slot rather than removing a tank slot.
I was an off tank player in t2, and loved it. Not having my role exist anymore made me stop playing tank fully. I've missed 6v6 and besides that power creep across the board of damage and healing makes it feel like you just explode the second you make a mistake like not blocking an anti nade or getting hooked.
I agree. I said this when it dropped and everyone was like no 6v6 sucks I hate it. Nah you just hated that they didn’t give us more heroes and change the meta from what it was. You hated 2CP not 6v6 you hated shields not 6v6
I dont get how people who played for 6 Years can say 6v6 sucked, mf you played the game for 6 years cant be that bad And then they act like these 3 years of 2x Shield is all 6v6 ever was, when in reality all metas from 2016 - 2019 (Yes even goats that just lasted too long) where 10x more fun than anything i played in OW2 This community will only accept 6v6 if they either 1. Have the brain capacity to understand that 2x Shield was fixable and only lasted so long because the devs didnt care/worked on OW2 2. If we get a 6v6 patch with less CC and less Shields, everyone would see the format is superior to that bs that 5v5 is
I completely agree. I believe this was a lazy, quick, temporary “fix” for the game. Most Overwatch players would agree that the format of 6v6 felt better and more fun if they balanced the game correctly, like the patch from October 2020( don’t quote me on that). All the streamers were happy with the patch and said, Don't CHANGE ANYTHING. And what’d they do? Ruin the game by buffing brig and nerfing Genji. The game would have been fine, IMO, if they tried to balance more often in 6v6. Edit: October 2020, not 2021 Also, Seagull made a video on the patch
That patch was awesome But true, yknow i introduced a friend to OW in like January 2022, he really liked 6v6 and tried getting all achivements We played a lot till October What happend at OW2 release? He played 1 week of 5v5 and never touched the game again I mean i cant blame him out of my 4200 Hours OW, 4000 are from OW1, 5v5 is shit
yeah, fuck shield fest. I personally don't pay attention to all these mersy mainers comments. No way dps player would enjoy 6v6 more if he isn't gold or something
@@teatime5543I’ve been 4k sr since s6 maining projectile dps. Getting gm1 in overwatch2 feels pretty similar to like 35-3800. Here’s a player significantly better than you that prefers 6v6. There’s a whole lot more, but they don’t play this trash anymore which is part of the reason gm1 is so uncompetitive. Lol
It instantly would become that again. Giant bloated health pools that have CC's and can in the right circumstances, one-shot characters are impossible to balance. They'd need to revert absolutely every single change they've made in OW2 for that, and that will not happen.
I hit rank 1 playing dps and I enjoy 6v6 more as a dps player. you are just braindead wrong when you think 6v6 was less enjoyable. supports literally do more damage than dps now. @@teatime5543
5 v 5 works better in Paladins or League of Legends because you can't switch characters, but you can buy items to make up for team weaknesses, and counter your opponent with items.
I find it very simple. After 5v5 I have found myself playing 10x less simply because there are exponentially more gameplay elements that have become less fun and rewarding as a direct result of the format change from 6v6. And no, changing to 5v5 would not in a million years have been what I would've thought the game needed to balance its existing issues, they were pure balance team neglect issues, not actual format issues. Role lock was a good addition all things considered, but it was also the only good thing the dev team did for game balance in the last 7 years.
I seriously played the faq out of 6v6 on the last days of OW1, ironically it felt so good, like, the best balance the game had ever seen for years, ofc tho some heroes were busted like roadhog (literally he was at the top on the leaderboards), but it was such a fun, enjoyable and somewhat balanced experienced. I was genuinely sad when it came to an end because I knew for a fact OW was never ever going to be the same with 5v5, and indeed, it was never and will never be the same...
Same, had so much fun in even Graveyard Season, now it just lost its special feel, ow is just so bland as 5v5 its crazy how people say its better They forget OW 6v6 can be the best competitive gaming experience (2016 - 2018 showed it) but people only think about "2x Shield" thats why they are happy 6v6 is gone If they went 5v5 during dive in 2017, people would have gone mad so fast lmao
I think one of the major reasons for 5v5 is the new engine, the game have way more lag and bugs than OW1, if you put one extra hero on each team the game would explode. I think the game would be better, but lots more heroes would need reworks (but not like Sombra rework, that thing was terrible; pros were already complaining on her on alpha or beta 1 of OW2, they're 'fixing' her for season 7!!!)- but they always come with the excuse "but people LOVE that playstyle/hero/ability" or "confort pick"
The custom sleep dart time for tanks sets such a weird precedence. Notice it's not a tank role passive, like reduced CC in general, just reduced CC on that one ability.
I’ve been in so many matches where my team dominated the match, yet, still lost. We had the top scores on the board, but, they had the “right” hero comp, so, we lost. I remember when my squad used to stay up all night and play- win or lose. Now we hop on for two matches and get sick of it because it’s such a mess
Tanks got overbuffed, as a character archetype, since they need to spread the same amount of attention and resources over twice the frontline presence. Supports were buffed offensively as DPS now have way more free reign, with one less tank to control off angles. They also kinda need the support passive by design of every other member of a team has up to 2 support options, whereas being one, you kind of miss out, especially with peel feeling like a forgotten or outdated concept. Dps have remained mostly the same I think (don't follow patch notes anymore). Some duels feel too consistently one sided, but that might just be me. Some of our main reasons for making the shift from 6v6 to 5v5 were: A) because not enough people were interested in playing tank. The cast play style has too many cooperation dependents, and is more convoluted than the average shooter character archetype. B) The role became too difficult for blizzard to balance in an engaging manner, where tanks don't just compound their defense's by cycling, and regenerating, their abilities. (Windows of opportunity scale inversely proportional to total uptime per period). 5v5 intended to appeal to a more casual audience, and with expectation of a more casual audience I feel we've actually pushed beyond and enabled the expectation of a totally casual, uncooperative and interactive competitive experience. Too many polarising mechanics. To me, beam type weapons are an example of overwatch's totally unnecessary counter-mechanic characteristics. Something like deflect being not just inoffensive against these weapon types, but totally ignored, is an unnecessarily polarising mechanic. Others could include: - Javelin spin vs Melee (dmg is acknowledged both ways) - Melee vs Grasp (Maybe, not certain) - Deflect vs Beams - EMP vs ultimates - Anti vs Tanks (Solution/2nd hand need later) - One shots - Discord (calls for elaboration) - Stacking turret slow - Shotguns vs tank hitbox - Damage boost Mid support main since ow1 here. I have felt for a long time that we've been playing this stupid act of buffing both burst dmg and healing for so long that we needed up resorting to lamp. Moving from ow1 to 2, I felt support was super unfun, being fodder by design, and it seems the more defensive stability we've given them, the more players of other roles dislike it for "being dps". I think the crossroads I have with the role balance is "how much do we want to prescribe our role, of the titles we oy described them as in ow1". For me support until the 5th season was best explained as "strong... in all the least engaging ways": Healbot (you do it), discord (you do it), nano (you do it), speed boost (you do it), damage boost (you do it), kitsune (you do it). I think the game suffers way too much from the amount of healing players receive, and then conversely, the amount of time players have to spend healing. It's both frustrating and boring. I think ow would be far better off if we had a steady set of resources we engage a fight with. Over time, damage slowly wins the tides over sustain. Support gets to spend less time enabling someone else to do something, and instead engages with them, with offensive utility in place of generic damage. Tanks aren't slave to LoS of supps. By nerfing healing, we've reduced the potency of nade. Last tid bit. Is tanks having a hitbox far larger than the rest of the cast a totally necessary characteristic? Body blocking hasn't been a primary pressure absorption mechanic for a long time, and it seems to be the bane of a lot of mechanics (shotguns & CC). If nothing else. I think just in terms of this video and it's discussion logistics, I think comparing strength of a role with its number of strong abilities isnt necessarily a fair correlation. I think we constantly talk about the strength of tank and support in terms of how the cast decides the rest of the team comp, where I think it's more so that tanks and supports have far greater variety in utility than dps. Therefore the consequences of synergy are going to fall more heavily on which ones are chosen, but I could be wrong.
as a hanzo main from 2016 to 2022 when i quit, 6v6 felt better to play as a sniper and felt more rewarding to play. I miss how much it took to climb the ranks and the ability to one trick a hero and adapt to any scenario as a character. Also the supports in ow made me stop playing the game along with the 5v5.
I honestly prefer 5v5 more, the solo carry potential is so much higher. Fights in OT aren't as BS and stall heavy. I like fast paced gameplay, having to wait for 5 other random people was always so difficult to do. Rotations are so much easier, communication(when there is any) is usually not as jammed with people saying different stuff
yeah make Basketball 4v4 so it will have more solo carry potential 🤩 if you want solo carry potential, you should play a 1v1 game or a game with 1 shot headshots like siege
i can see why solo carrying would be fun but overwatch is not a solo carry game. it is a team game where it is unrealistic to have one member of the team carry, which is partly why snipers are broken.
@@AdamNChargefootball is 11v11 and has "carry" potential so your basketball analogy is completely off The idea that people can't carry in team games is disingenuous and stupid Not surprising coming from a Sam fan
I never played OW 1, I have about 500 hours in OW 2. The game definitely has a super steep learning curve. I hover around gold-plat and I main support. Its super hard to aim in this game considering how erratically people move. I find a ton of people in my games have little understanding of the macro game being played as well. People refuse to change characters or playstyles. The tank role seems like a role I'd be most suited to play based on my personallity and skill set, but the role just feels empty. I feel like theres a ton of combat problems that tanks are capable of solving but theres too many things the tank is required to do at once. 6v6 feels like it would solve most of the issue's in gameplay I've experienced.
Well I really think the main issue is that the Tank role has become too important / crucial. If your tank player is bad or getting diffed then your team is fucked. As compared to having a second tank so they can play off eachother or he can carry the other thank a bit. Having 2, like you said, just reduces accountability which is very important not only for making plays but also for having fun and not getting in a bad mood when the leaderboard makes it look like you’re the sole reason you’re losing.
Can you please Update the 6v6 or make a 6v6 workshop code that is balanced and easily findable (I'm early in the vid, so if you mention this in the video just ignore me) I would like to see a handful of 6v6 games always on the workshop I could jump into
I remember everything being so excited about the 5v5. All the overwatch creators were hyping it up so much, I dont believe that the majority was against it
I think everyone was just willing to give it a chance. its like when you are really hungry, you will give any food a chance. We were straved for 3 years. Can't really blame it.
@@WorldKeepsSpinnin i wasnt. i hated it the instant i heard them say it. i climbed to GM tank duoing with my friend pretty much all the way just dva monkey or rein zarya.
Only Blizzard would design a game to become Game of the Year, and then convince themselves that somehow that design is flawed and needs to be changed fundamentally. You know what other game they did that with? World of Warcraft. Now they have to literally back track, with Ian admitting that they messed up with Retail due to their own stubbornness. I wonder how long it will take the OW team to admit they were wrong.
Daily reminder that *_double supports_* were what allowed all the worst metas we saw in ow1, not double tanks; it's why only one medic is allowed per team in tf2's 6v6 competitive community, *_despite_* said medic having less and weaker tools than every single ow2 support atm. Also daily reminder that, when supports are so stupidly tanky that the only people most dps heroes can pick off are *_other_* dps heroes, it feels incredibly pointless to be a dps hero in the first place; in other words, literally 2 out of the 3 roles provide almost no meaningful value in this game anymore, simply because of supports. *_Amazing._*
Based! Love it Sam. Thanks for fighting the good fight. People just need to know that OW cannot reach its potential (a gold standard competitive title such as CSGO or LoL) if we are in 5v5. Like it may not be the worst thing ever, but we need to course correct before we go down the 5v5 path too far and miss out on making OW the game it was in 2017, a mainstay in nearly everyone’s gaming rotation and a deep, competitive title people actually took seriously. Edited for spelling and I want to add this: Removing a tank also ensures that almost every interaction involves a support pocket. Say you want to secure an elimination- due to tanks having buffed hp pools and supports only having one tank to focus their attention on, tanks are going to usually have 1 if not 2 heroes supporting them. So your individual play making, let alone team focus fire, won’t even bring them down. Then it’s a 50/50 shot if you fight a DPS that doesn’t have a pocket because the support that isn’t healing a tank is usually backing them up. And don’t even think of trying to duel a support, if you’re lucky enough that they aren’t grouped together and you don’t take damage on the way, they have way overbuffed abilities and the other support can lifegrip them across the map and even if you play out of LOS Kiriko can still TP in and suzu. Every support hero also now gets their own self heal after 1.5 seconds so there are a lot of times if you have to disengage, reload or break a Brig shield for even a slight moment it’s like they have their own pocket. Illari literally does (and she’s the healthiest OW2 support). So basically the entire game is just the DPS having the illusion of a more fun FPS game because there aren’t two shields, but if you look any deeper it’s really just taking DPS duels and hoping they don’t have a pocket (and it’s not like it takes that long to swap targets and help a DPS). I heard someone say it’s a 3v3 game with a DPS minigame. It truly does feel like that sometimes.
The game is definitely way more 1-dimensional with 5v5, but at the same time, we are distorting our perception of the good old days of OW1 without taking into consideration how the game objectively behaved compared to the last few years of OW1. If you look at any footage of OW1 from the first 3 years, you will notice that almost every hero literally moved slower. Their attack animations were slower, & cast time of some abilities were slower. The game we experienced slowly sped up with incremental updates without us realizing that the entire player base was on training wheels from the get go. Us old OW1 players improved over time, but so did the game's level of feedback for our level of experience. New players of OW2 will never get that type of first time experience, where they don't feel like they're being bombarded by sensory overload, 5v5 or not. - - - - - - - - - - (I personally like the fast pace gameplay that OW1 was at, during its peak with mobility, before they removed all momentum to all abilities, due to the crazy knockbacks from CC abilities. But the average player never experienced high paced games that start occurring from Diamond rank, so they defaulted to not liking the fast pace of 5v5. And the sudden increase in the pacing that occurred cross the entire board was another byproduct of 1 less tank to not force enemies from not being able to utilize the entire map space in these short rounds during matches.)
I miss 6v6 so much. My favorite game of all time has been taken from me. No more being a charged zarya or playing hog. My mei is gone too. Let’s start a movement to bring it back or at least create a game mode for it in custom games.
With 6v6, even when Overwatch was at some of it's weakest points, I was still playing at leat once or twice a week. After 5v5 I played a little and then dropped it entirely. Of course my disappointment with the cacellation of PvE played a part in my choice too, but as a Reinhardt main it suddenly felt weird to play. I think what you said about being a puppet to supports may have been a part of it but the truth is despite all of the super buffs I truly felt like I had less power to make plays. I always felt like the devs changed to 5v5 to reduce the overall complexity of the game in hopes of alleviating their need to balance the game in the state it was previously. It felt like it was a lazy "fix" for their problems. I don't know if I'll ever go back to Overwatch now. I really miss playing it but the experience isn't the same. I would challenge Blizzard to reactivate Overwatch as 6v6 before it was shut down alongside Overwatch 2 to see what happens. Let's see what your community would rather play. In it's current state, I think that old Chinese copycat game that got cancelled back in like 2017 or 18 that had the McCree with big tits might be more fun than Overwatch 2.
5v5 won't kill Overwatch, but I think it's safe to say at this point it is not *better* than 6v6. What do you think?
They actually made tank worse. Imagine the biggest problem being exacerbated. OT needs to come back.
Decreasing players per team limits hero selection even further. If OW was a 1v1 game, the only hero that would ever get picked would be Tracer. As a former MT player, I just can't do it in OW2, it feels awful when you aren't allowed to play heroes you want because if you do it's a throw. Whereas, with the OT role in the game it allowed some flexibility for the MT pick. Although, I will say playing DPS and support feels better to me. I think the best solution would have been to separate tank role into MT and OT, this would avoid the double shield cancer. To do this they would have to keep tank as a singular role queue though, because queue times would be even more terrible.
Side note, all invuln abilities should be gutted with the exception of ults (i.e. Transcendence). Also, as long as discord exists in it's current state, MT will always feel trash to play without any support from an OT to peel for you.
It's hilarious how they went to 5v5 to fix the poor balancing of 6v6 with double shield and oppressive tanks, only to end up creating an even worse situation for the tank role. What a dog shit company that continually makes OW a worse game patch by patch lol
Overwatch is already dead. Always has been.
HARD disagree
Tank+Tank synergies and combos were why I enjoyed playing tank. As a former off-tank, I have only played as dps since OW2 launch.
This comment made my heart hurt :'( I'm a sup main and barely played Tank, but I felt that.
I felt that.
it just makes sense
2 tanks 2 dmg 2 healer
and then you can switch up from there if needed
@@irelyndd3853:(
The fact that you can't play Hog and Ball Torture anymore is the true tragedy of 5v5.
I must say playing as Tank got so much more frustrating at Overwatch 2 indeed, as 2 of my 3 Mains (Moira, Sigma and Reinhardt) are Tanks...
I agree Overwatch is better 6v6 like it was originally designed for, 5v5 just makes the game more about winning the 1v1 matchups and less about teamplay.
Exacly,the thing that made this game unique was thrown away to make it more like tf2,if i wanted to play tf2 i would >:(
And the 1v1 match up are so unbalanced too. U cant kill a tank as any character and if a support pops their entire kit on u as a dps u lose 90%of the time. Whenever i play tank i can take 1v1s standing still and still come out on top because of my insane stat advantage, and whne im support if i wanted to i cud be very selfish with my cooldowns and win any 1v1 against a dps unless its a one shot hero haha
Well 6v6 was deffo about winning lol
You're correct, but most players solo queue, which is literally better to have more 1v1 or solo carry potential...I could play out of my mind in ow1 and still lose the fucking game bc someone on my team is doing nothing, which can completely negate my efforts.
So you are right, but at the end of the day, overwatch is not good as a "team" game. Being more reliant on your team to win games is god awful, and tbh I think players who want that are just bad at the game. If you dont want pressure on you to win the game and perform well, you're simply not good at the game or you just dont fit into a competitive environment. if you're confident in your abilities, you should absolutely want more control over the outcome of the match without worrying about your teammates. Overwatch 2 achieves that very much so right now. I 4 stack with my friends, and a few of them dont have much time in the game and aren't super good yet. I've found that no matter what role I play, I can still carry the game. This wasn't possible in overwatch 1. If I stacked w my friends in ow1, we'd lose p much every single time no matter how well I played. We'd finally win games once our MMR dropped low enough
@@masift1494why not play a fighting game if you don't want to play a game where you have to use the skills required to work as a team? I don't mean this in a rude way either but I was just curious with the comment of implying people that want to work as a team are worse at the game than people who don't.
Having 2 tanks working together was some of my favorite interactions in the game. Would be understatement if I said I just miss it.
Fr 😢
but girls hated havin 2 tanks tho
I’d rather have the old triple tank meta i largely lost interest way back when they made it to where you couldn’t switch from dps to off tank to support I don’t think overwatch has been as fun since I get it was for balance but the wacky combinations you would come across added a lot of variety to competitive
@@Sugar-hr9ilye and they were right
@@Sugar-hr9il what?
Summary:
1. 5v5 removes depth and skill ceiling
2. With no tank to peel supports have gotten op (immortalities and mobility)
3. Aoe healing (brig) makes things unkillable
4. Many tanks weren’t designed for 5v5 making tank role feel bad
Also maps feel empty without 6th tank
I hope one day Blizzard bites their pride and tests out 6v6 again
2 and 3 were both in the game when we had 6v6. Blizzard would have still gone the same route with suzu and immortality spam.
All they needed to do was keep 6 v 6, but fix the shield meta so you weren't shooting the shield the entire game and having it block heals.
aoe healing is technically worse in 6v6
What?!!! Brig is still a problem for y'all? You still complaining about her?
6v6 was terrible. Every hero is more survivable in 5v5. Winston used to barely be playable against some comps.
Saddest part for me was that me and my friend played tank duo together for years, we had a lot of combos and synergy together and all of that got removed.
It's not just the saddest part, its the part that actually matters. No amount of game balance can fix removing a friend from your team. I'd rather the game be in eternal goats with 6 Brigs as long as my friends still played.
@@lastdayer101 True, no matter how bad the comps got you were still able to offset the terribleness of what you were up against by being able to play with your friend
This 100% I had thousands of hours on Tank. Played Rein, Dva, and Zarya the most and would duo with a friend it was always fun. Now when your group plays I'm the only tank and it feels empty like even when I win it doesn't feel like I got to work together. I get propped up by good supports and just do my thing. No fun double bubble, no fun dive comps, no fun brawl comps. It's sad. Tank with a friend was the best part of Overwatch and always will be.
@@hinatasninetailedfox its very true, tanks had a lot of synergy with eachother, and in the past, even if your healers were bad you and the other tank could work together to try and offset that difference, but now the tank is at the mercy of the supports half the time.
Huge part. I met a ton of good friends i still play (other) games with from playing tank duo's. Like a good amount. Between this and the removal of the post match time to chat, ive met like one person playing OW2
Overwatch 2 was marketed around this fabled, highly-replayable PvE mode that they ended up cancelling. The PvP direction shift from 6v6 to 5v5 made me quit Overwatch PvP. The cancellation of the PvE gave me no incentive to return to the game either. So right now, Overwatch is nothing but a memory to me. I'd rather have Overwatch 1 in a perpetual content-draught with only minor balance changes every now and then, than whatever we ended up getting.
I quit OW when they announced OW2 was going to be 5v5
My feelings exactly
This is SO true it hurts!
Wow same here exactly I wonder how much of the community dropped after ow1 Switch to 2 cuz the writing on the wall. And just feeling like all the fun you had might not translate. Becoming more busy etc had no motivation to grind 5v5.
Like samito said it was so fixable too. The main problem was they stopped focusing on the game itself. And instead of trying to focus comp for the sweats they tried to appeal it for casuals too while moving on to working on “ow2”. Ngl it wasn’t perfect but I was still having a lot of fun at the end of ow1 life cycle. This is just a sad mutation of stuff no one wanted. Even the campaign peeps got the short end of the stick. OW1 will always have so much nostalgia for me and the community I made. They just stopped making content for it
Agree. I do enjoy some of the changes, some of the reworks work, and some of the new heroes would be fun in OW2.
I think Doom and JQ could use an off tank. Ram is a true solo tank.
I haven’t had an Overwatch game close to being as enjoyable as they were in 6v6. Wish more people were speaking about this
people have tried but others just seem to be in denial and some streamers will just shoot you down and refuse to even entertain the idea.
Agree. And agree OP@@mossup- . I feel like streamers just play a different version of the game than the rest of us. I feel like 6v6 made some healthier diamond and masters games.
Exacly
General 6v6 create more wild moments which are good for the channels, watching old Lucio doing their funni in the backline is way more entertaining than seeing him constantly diving like a mad lad
I've literally been saying this since OW2 launched, it seemed so obvious to me but I've probably received 1000s of downvotes by now from all the denialists who actually don't understand game balance but only think "its better now" because there is actually being added content again after years of dry soup.
I enjoyed 6v6 so much more.
Nothing died in 6v6 unless everybody dumps every cooldown they have. That's not an FPS anymore, that's a moba.
@@whosurjustin nothing dies in 5v5 unless everybody dumps every cooldown they have. thats not an fps(overwatch was never a shooter in the first place) anymore, that's a moba.
yeah because Overwatch is literally an FPS Moba, where's the issue? @@whosurjustin
@@whosurjustin LMAO Overwatch is supposed to be a MOBA type FPS. OW2 is basically a CoD deathmatch with MOBA elements and it's cheesy and cheap. Nothing that is META rn takes any kind of skill. I don't think I have ever had genuine fun playing OW2 compared to when I played OW1 back in 2017-2021 when I was even arguably worse than I am now.
@@Real_Nutella Except the fact that OW has always been called a hero FPS, not hero FPS Moba
"It should matter how you play, not who you pick." Seriously needs to be a giant mantra logo in the OW dev offices
Man I really miss 6v6,
I fell off OW2 around Sep '22, mainly because I loved the tank role but they really killed it for me by introducing only one tank.
Mainly playing Rein, Roadhog, Zar, DVA and when needed Orisa/Winston, I enjoyed supporting my team where they needed it (if supports need peel, need to rush, need to dive, etc.)
It just feels off playing one tank and having teammates heavily blame the majority of losses on a singular Tank.
Tank main here Low Masters/High Diamond in OW1. I agree 100%. You have so many less options now with one tank. If they have a pesky widow and your DPS can't contest do you leave your entire team to contest her as DVA and hope they don't get walked over or do you stay in the front contest their Frontline and let widow just kill them for free? You have two choice no sending your off tank to draw aggro creating space and shifting the focus in a fight. Game feels emptier and less rewarding now.
I wish blizzard had the balls to put a playlist for 6v6 and let the ow community decide what was better for the game. Most tanks are cool, just need to lower shields hp and regular health. But blizzard is stubborn and would never let it happen.
Ow well the wide dude streamer did a 6v6 customs and flamed 6v6 the whole time...........but now sings that 5v5 is boring. So Blizz won't bcoz him and his click say 5v5 is more fun
Been saying this.
@@Flightkid90flats?
I love this idea
5v5 right now is being ruined by the support role. All the biased support mains complain that they have it the hardest, but really it’s dps and especially tanks that are suffering. Support has so much utility and healing that their all basically better dps. Bap literally does more damage that Cass. Because of all the power creep in damage and heals, Tank is left utterly defenseless and with a miserable experience. Now all the negative effects like discord, hack, and all the ccs just get sent at the tank and there is nothing they can do without an off tank. Yes support is undoubtedly the easiest and most OP role in the game, it’s not even close.
I was a tank player for the whole of Overwatch 1. Overwatch 2 came out and I didn’t even make it through season 1 playing tank without completely quitting the game. Every game was so boring because no matter what you did tank always just became a rock paper scissors scenario where if you don’t swap you just lose. I recently came back because I had friends that wanted to play and after trying tank again I still hate playing it even if it’s easily my best role.
I love that this season It's all Orisa Doom Dva
Mostly orisa
I outplayed you... oh now your orisa... guess i gotta play her too now..
its still like this. go dva. zarya. go orisa. zarya. go zarya. rein. its literally just rock paper scissors now. you have to be so much better against the person whos countering you to even stand a chance.
@@alicenull807I only play doom when I play tank, and this season I only play doom in qp. I don’t enjoy any other tank besides rein so I normally jump don’t play comp tank.
Same😢
My conspiracy theory is that the switch to 5v5 was a business decision because they needed a strong differentiation between OW1 and OW2, specially after they knew PvE was gonna be delayed and cancelled and there would essentially be no good reason for a sequel anymore.
Now that decision has ruined everything I loved about this game. I stuck with OW1 all the way to the end and used to play about five hours every night with friends. This month I’ve only logged in twice, and it wasn’t for long.
I think it was because they had 0 clue on how to balance double shield
I just finished the video and saw that’s the point Sam wanted to make. Glad I’m not the only one.
I really thought they did it because people just werent playing tank.
@@mathijnverkerk2420I used to play tank as my second role, after ow2 started I almost never played tanò, is boring af😂
@@bunnyflop3126 If that ends up to be the reason theyre idiots
Hmm i wonder why is Sigma/Orisa so OP, they only have the longest Range on Tank with high damage, they also have rechargable shields. What you broke the Shields? Well Orisa now takes 50% less damage and Sigma sucks everything up
Like... just nerf their sustain so dive becomes a counter to 2x Shield and were good, not that hard.
The crazy part about double shielding in OW1 is that Blizzard actually did find a solution to the problem, and that was a reworking for characters. I mean look at Orisa, she use to be a shield tank then got a whole rework that made her a brand new character. Had they just kept reworking shields (not necessarily get rid of them). Then they wouldn't have been a need to get rid of a extra role but then when Blizzard found an answer to the problem the created a new one and here we are.
I've said it since launch, and many people would just brush me off as someone who was afraid of change. Overwatch 2 hasn't gotten me the same level of enjoyment as OW1 did
I came to this realization today... it's hollow now
Feel the same way, I would give up all these new heroes, maps, and skins just to get OW1 back
@@Venomenal91 Facts bro OW1 was 10x time better than OW2.
Rose tinted glasses bro. Nostalgia as well
@@rioriorio17 I didn't quit ow1 I quit ow2. I played ow1 till it shut down
I always thought this decision was 100% a move to make queue times faster. I'd like to think they ran some models and discovered that queues would drop if one less player was needed. However, this does not seem to be the case at higher ELOs.
Hilariously, the one tank model is what’s killing the tank playerbase rn.
@@mortystraphouse5077 that but mainly so less people were needed to get into a game
5v5 killed it for me, no excuses, ruined all of what Overwatch used to be
I'm with u brother
@SamitoFPS I just wanted to say thank you for being a voice for 6v6. My respect for you has really grown over the years and it was great to hear your thoughts here and in SVBs podcast. We at least need it as an arcade mode
6v6 was never an issue. I knew this from the start. The issue was not adding restrictions to eliminate issues like double shield. With the CC reduction, a lot of balance changes, and adding a few restrictions, 6v6 would've been better than this mess where supports have to be op so they don't feel too vulnerable, and the one tank gets to be bulled 24/7.
The change to 5v5 has also only served to add even more balancing challenges, as you said. This makes it feel like time spent on balancing could've been dedicated elsewhere or at least to deliver a better state of the game than what we've been getting.
6v6 was a HUGE issue and this video is stupid. 30 wait time to play dps due to not enough tank players
@r4nowo so your reasoning for 6v6 being worst is because of the wait times?...-_-
get outta here dude, and don't come back until you have a legitimate and valid argument on the topic
@@stompingthegods5886 why isn’t it a valid reason? Waiting 30+ min isnt a good gameplay experience no matter how you slice it. If that lasted the game would die off entirely, have fun playing 1v0
@r4nowo I never even experienced 30-minute wait times in ow1, so I don't even know what you're talking about. 10-15 mins is the most I've ever had to wait for. But Even *IF* 6v6 had a 30 min wait time in any of the roles like u say, I'd rather wait to have a quality, fun well-balanced match than to hop into an unbalanced, boring one-sided match any day of the week
@@stompingthegods5886 Things will not change in your desired direction most likely, cope with it. I like the state of the game.
As always, Samito with the God takes. I've been saying it for years, if the devs had just accepted Samito as a balancing advisor, the game would've been amazing
False 😂
truth
Pretty much all top 500 content creators have very good takes on balance. I'm not saying they're 100% right on everything, flats was definitely very wrong about ball at OW2 launch, but the balance team is incredibly stupid to not take their advice seriously. Just because you have the title of "overwatch balance team" doesn't mean you understand the game better than the people who play it for a living.
@@paladinmatt1697 they never claim to understand it better than the content creators but we all know what Samito would try to influence. He wants nerfs to brig and Moira and hit scans. His opinions alone should not be the only influence.
@@addynaruto1221 Samito fans are cringe. He hates anything that’s not genji or hanzo.
I think it would be an interesting experiment to have a 6v6 arcade mode to see if there is a demand among even new players. I miss playing Rein Zarya.
we're probably going to get one once this game starts dying off for a while, and hopefully sooner than later.
@@jamesdow211yeah people just need to stop playing
Id kill for a 2 2 2 arcade 6 v 6. You can actually do it in custom games, so it's in there
I’ve waited so long for this vid Samster! Bring Back 6v6!
"I can't play what I want to play." Sums it all up perfectly. Well said.
Another issue: the way DLC support ults are designed is adding to the overall power creep issues. Damage creep is made much worse by utility ults (e.g. nano, window, Kitsune) massively buffing damage output & messing with breakpoints. They also indirectly contribute to sustain creep by pushing support's "lifesaver" abilities into their base kits. Making teammates immortal used to be reserved for the support's ultimate ability, which made them feel much fairer to play against since they didn't come up as often and you knew that the support had to _earn_ their lifesaver moment.
Right, because Zenyatta's ult really makes your purple team invulnerable...
I mean hell; even TF2 knew to give dmg buffs to only one ability or aspect in their games even like the buffalo stake making Heavy do mini crits on his punches.
@@soundrogue4472TF2 is far from being balanced, but unbalanced things there are nowhere near as annoying or game breaking as they are in OW
And even then, a lot of those are unbalanced just because players have many years of no balance changes whatsoever and could test out how every weapon fair in each situation.
The difference between Overwatch and Team Fortress 2 is that every weapon in TF2 is meant to be sidegrade to stock. Nothing is supposed to be straight up upgrade. It works for 90% of times, but since weapon is only one of many aspects of character you play, it doesn't feel too bad.
Overwatch is trying to make sure every character is unique. They'll never dare to take away or change unique mechanic that hero possesses. That's why if one hero has an ability that's either too oppressive, or too useful, they'll either be needed to ground, or will dominate everyone.
And that oppressiveness is felt much more since you can't customise the character, you pick either someone too useful, or too useless. Lack of balance is felt here way much more.
The change to 5v5 was Blizzard's admission that they had no real idea on how to balance tanks or supports for a healthy 6v6 environment. Every meta in Overwatch 1's lifespan was tank or support-centric.
And we saw how bad the DPS centric meta was, both with Sojourn and Widowmaker. And now, with their buffs for supports like Bap and heroes like Kiriko and Illari, it’s even more support centric.
bro missed the bastion meta
bro missed the hanzo widow meta
Double sniper has entered the chat. Mei reaper has joined the channel. Pharmercy has sauntered into the sauna. Ana genji has entered the chat. There were a lot of very common comps that had nothing to do with the tanks played. Also I wonder how people explain all the bronze to top 500 dps content that happened. Sure tank comps were important, but unless you were up against OWL contenders or maybe a few of the top 500 games, there were plenty of other viable comps that were played.
Y’all remember GOATS? That was so bad lmao
Been saying the same thing about 5v5. 6v6 just needed a little more tweaking but now we are starting all over from the beginning with a bad foundation for enjoyable gameplay. Blizzard will take a big PR hit swapping back but it NEEDS to happen for the game to last as a comp game.
They just hit a reset button on everything, and had to rebalance everything when they couldn't even work with what they had.
“blizzard will take a big pr hit” therefore the change will never happen
@@iaminyourwaIIsNahh therefore the change WILL HAPPEN.
Blizzard and Controversy go hand in hand
they'll probably gain new PR by announcing OW3 and then rerelease OW2, but it says 3 and is 6v6 again.
I completely agree with the tank points about options. I watched Yeatle's video as well, and a lot of the Ball points apply to Winston (in non-OWL/Top 500 play). A lot of players don't know how to dive, so you have these weird interactions where you're having a good game and getting the backline but getting flamed for not protecting your DPS. And now especially you can't kill anyone.
You will be missed 6v6. I honestly just miss the tank synergy which made the games alot more fun and engaging.
Funny thing is, I didn't need a year to see this happening with 5v5.
The biggest issue switching to 5 created was it destroyed creativity in terms of team comps. The fact that blizzard was incapable of balancing around player creativity and adapting to in in a way that was good for the longevity of the game is why it died. Blizzard has always been narrow in terms of it's balance, across all of it's IP. One of it's fatal flaws.
edit: to be clear I'm also talking about lack of role q.
I do miss 6v6 it was more fun
I’ve been saying this since day 1. More content creators need to address this or needed to long ago.
I enjoyed Horizon Lunar Colony, Anubis and 2CP more than push or flashpoint. Less is not more!
Literally I'll play 2cp any day over push
@@nathancasey7712 same, they messed up so much since ow1
A common Samito W. I respect that you were willing to be patient, but I saw this coming from the announcement.
I was the only one in my friends' group that said 5v5 would destroy any level of competitive value the game held. I stood by while everyone including many content creators mocked my stance. It's nice to see someone finally come around and realize what I saw coming a mile away. The removal of off-tank is the removal of any realistic team play. The off-tank was the role that did everything, filled every hole and required the main tank to hold the space provided or to take the space while they held it. That synergy was what made Overwatch the game of the year. It was magic. it's why everyone hated open queue, because when you had less than 2 tanks the game was trash. Supports needing to compensate for the loss of the off-tank role has ruined any level of balance the game will ever see. If healers are strong, tank and dps feel awful. If healers are weak, tank feels disgusting and impossible to play, while DPS is okay. It's a no win scenario in any balance state, outside of some mythical balance ideal that cannot exist with the new heros consistently being added. I don't have any hope for Overwatch ever being a game worthy of praise again, and sadly I barely play now. From the absolute god-tier teamplay gameplay of overwatch 1, to the deathmatch garbage heap that is overwatch 2 is a long and sad fall from grace. With the magic gone, I don't ever enjoy my plays of the game or whatever else. The fun aspects that remain feel numb and tainted. I understand a lot of this is dramatic, but these are my genuine feelings.
I genuinely am jealous of anyone that enjoys 5v5, I will probably mourn 6v6 for some time. Overwatch was my go to game, now it's just very rare that I even think about it. I thought about un-subbing to overwatch content just to forget it ever existed.
Bro same, i love OW still and i wish i could enjoy 5v5 but its just so fucking trash
No doubt in my mind if OW 5v5 released in 2016, less people would have liked it
Well i guess its time to let go my favourite game that brought me joy for 6+ years, if they bring it back, even if its only a like 5% chance of happening, i will grind agan though
@@SpekUL8Games Lets see how long this game "thrives".
Since youre a new player, ill let you smoke the copium that Blizzard is able to sustsain a game
Small hint, Supports being OP as fuck and essentially better DPS, Counterswaping, Snipers/1 Shots being OP, Currently not addressing Ranked, no incentive to play (Except BP if you count that lol), etc.
Im sorry all OW1 players sound so depressed, but we just cant not compare it to OW2, which overall is just a downgrade in every aspect except amount of content they release
Good for you that you enjoy it, but lets see if you care enough to play it for 6+ Years, through shit metas and 3 Years of 0 Content
Yo same. I actually got openly and hostily mocked by Apply himself for suggesting that 5v5 isn't going to work out how people think.
@@jyrlan2596 When was this? 5 Months ago (and as far as i know, regularly now) Apply does 6v6 Customs and has said he likes it way more than 5v5
Dont know if he changed his mind again, but i saw him Cast Viewer Games and play Viewer 6v6 Games and he enjoyed it a lot.
Watching this video made me realize how much gameplay, identity, and synergies we lost transitioning from 6v6 to 5v5 and it just makes me sad. You know for sure they will never walk back on this because of the invested dev time and that it would take admitting that they were wrong. I really miss the off tank role.
What dev time? Typing [DELETE] in the tank field and changing some numbers in a spread sheet? They wont change because they're incompetent developers now
I am a tank player and I prefer 6v6. I joined shortly after bap released. I like 6v6 more but I did enjoy the way tank felt with 5v5. I miss having another tank which is why I play more open que. Most characters feel better, I think I am only happy with doom as a tank if he has his mobility and fluidity. Also I do not like the empowered fist and find the punch hitting extra people to just be cheese and would rather just hit harder.
Dude I know right… I was like wait how is this any better when he would get the charge punch on entire teams in early OW2. Like you wouldn’t even be the one who messed up and gave him LOS yet you may die for it.. and as a Doom I think it just felt weird and lame farming the punch to have any power it just added an extra step. I like the playstyle too but couldn’t they have just nerfed the punch damage and gave him like 300hp and let us keep uppercut? Also new slam is just way noobier and if I remember correctly they even made punch charge up faster whereas before Doom was more vulnerable and needed more time in OW1.
Sadly blizzard never admit mistakes, so we're stuck with shitty 5v5
They don't necessarily have to but just keep open queue as 5v5.
7v7
5v5 isnt shitty, you just aren't used to it. cope
@@ryley.mcginnis little white boy saying 'cope' lmao.
It's funny to me that the reasons they removed 6 v 6 were deleted from the game and they still decided on removing it. I think that one of the reasons that 6 v 6 was removed was 2cp, maps that the defenders were heavily skewed to win with how spawn points worked and the abilities that allowed unkillable sustain characters to be rampant. With 2cp removed I honestly think that a major pain point for 6 v 6 was removed and the devs could've continued onwards with it, albeit with some balance changes but if they just stuck with it, I think the game would now be in a much healthier state.
Agreed but I still liked 2cp
2cp was the best gamemode@@nathancasey7712
@@nathancasey7712 same
100% correct on everything. I think the only way the game can be saved is to go back to 6v6. The sad part is that the game will have to almost be completely dead for them to admit their mistake and make the necessary changes.
They're probably just going to shut the game down in that case. Triple A game development isn't about love and care anymore. It's about profit margins and abandoning projects before the sunk cost catches up. ActiBlizzion could care less if they deleted thousands of people's hours and progress if they're saving money and face.
That’s definitely not true at all. The game is still really massive. It’s not even close to being dead.
@@rioriorio17From millions to tens of thousands. Definitely not dying.
I was trying to be supportive of 5v5. I think this is time long enough to determine that 5v5 wasn't better. I miss 6v6 so bad.
Sam. I’m one of the ones who has given a lot of critical feedback over the last year. This video is exactly why I fell in love with your channel originally. Appreciate the great perspective without the emotion. This video was well thought out and extremely well presented. Thank you!
I hate these types of responses. "your video was so nice and I like the things you said" Wtf? come on man, maybe have a snippet of that and then add your thoughts on the topic itself?
@@jerbsherb4391 sometimes you have to give general positive feedback when you’ve given critical feedback in the past. This comment wasn’t for you but thanks for commenting.
I'm a Lucio main. The move to 5v5 is the singular reason I stopped playing OW shortly after 2 came out and the points you listed here were exactly my concerns (and eventually complaints) about the move. Lucio was always more than just DPS in OW1. In 6v6, core components of Lucio were tempo control of the battle, shaping enemy formations, and harass/protection of the backlines. With the knockback reduction on a buffed singular tank. You're now pretty much forced into a role that's almost exclusively DPS-focused.
If I only wanted to play a DPS character, I'd play DPS. Lucio's constant battle condition assessment of the match as you fly around it kept your mind constantly working on information prioritization. You had to juggle attention between the large scale strategy/positioning and micro. In other words your ability to play a rounded Lucio effectively entailed trying to maintain full map awareness while also spotting and prioritizing diving into short engagements, teammate saves, and frontline actions. These decisions all had to take place while you're a high value target that multiple people are trying to kill; forcing you to have to weigh moment-to-moment decisions about whether you should take a line which is optimal for you (speed/exposure/pick opportunities/exit-options) or lines which are optimal for your team (AoE coverage/saves). The 5v5 format de-prioritized this aspect of his role into the ground.
As a former tank player the reason I have lost enjoyment and stopped playing tank is the stress and pressure put onto me. It makes me anxious and feels more like a chore to play tank at this point. Plus can’t forget about the extra toxicity towards tanks now. Bring back 6v6
Good stuff Sam. You led the revolution and it worked. This aged like fine wine.
“So we are switching to 5v5 format so we can justify a 2 in front of Overwatch!”
I think the biggest issue right now is the impact of support CD's.
Abilities like anti, sleep, immo, suzu, grip, damage boost, and discord, are disproportionately easy to use for the value they obtain, while being stacked on heroes that are able to go blow for blow with many DPS, some of whom have the best mobility in the game, and nearly all of whom have the best ults in the game.
Ironically, I think this is an issue for supports as well - "With great power comes great responsibility".
Supports are constrained by their own strength - because the other support is also so powerful, you're now confined into particular playstyles that don't just encourage, but actually demand, that you assist your team.
Compare this to DPS and Tank - they're generally able to play much more selfishly than supports are. Their abilities are generally for themselves first, and their team second.
In a mirror of Ana's, if one of them is forced to use sleep or anti on themselves, but the other is able to use it on the tank - the other Ana will win the majority of those encounters. Sleep and anti are so powerful, particularly against a solo tank, that you almost have to use it aggressively.
This creates tedious playstyles which revolve around support cooldowns, and which then require prioritizing support picks above all else - and consequently, it makes it so many tanks and DPS are held hostage by their supports, forced to be puppeteered around like you and Flats said.
Think of how many heroes can't be buffed because of how damage boost or nano interact with them. Think of how many tanks get shut down if they have an Ana and you don't have a Kiri - and then think about how the Kiri is now being forced to play to counter their Ana so that their tank can actually participate. And there are so many examples of this.
I think the support category, combined with the lack of overall changes to heroes when we shifted to 5v5, are the primary source of friction in the game right now.
This; people (especially support players which is ironic because i only play support and dps, and support is my most played role) always get mad when i explain why as a tracer, is harder to stick someone and is stupidly easy for a kiriko or a bap to deny it, because they of course like to argue that if you as tracer are sticking someone while suzu or lamp are not on a cd, thats on you, but the issue remains; why the one who has to actually practice and develop a skill such as sticking a pulse bomb accordingy (and if someone is stupid enough to tell me its not that hard to stick one, i dare you to try it yourself so you can taste just how "easy" it is) is the one to blame when someone can just deny it with an ability on a cd? yeah i know you have to time it, but tracer's ult is one that is forgiving with it because it has a bigger window of opportunity to use suzu in comparison with shatter or blossom (unless the reaper is silver or stupid enough to send an email telling you they are gonna ult), or even a dva bomb, not saying its the easier ult but it sure is compared to others, tire also comes to mind. So no, the moment they allowed an ability on a low cd compared to others like sleep, that cant be destroyed like lamp be capable to deny ults with such low effort is when this game has become so unsatisfying and frantic
_"....forced to be puppeteered aroundl ike [Samito] and Flats said"..._
Putting Samito next to a known liar who participated in the rug-pull of PVE like Flats is incredibly disrespectful.
@@vopcracker3193Okay, little goofy but sure.
You do know that Samito references Flats first, right?
They neglected OW1 for years just to remove 2 players from PvP and creating a greedy monetization system. The devs clearly don't care about their game
No no no...according too the 2 tons of fun streamer that watches roles for a sandwhich instead of rolling for a salad said "it's the higher ups not the devs" so your wrong it's not the devs fault and we should feel for them...they hate making the game apparently but love taking our money, so feel bad for them
@@Flightkid90”two tons of fun” XD
The Devs do care about their games, its big Corpa thats the issue, i.e. in this case Bobby & his board room buddies.
@@Flightkid90 ??? it literally is the higher ups what are you waffling on about. also the random assholery about flats??????????? ???? what are you ON about
How to fix ow2's Gameplay:
1-Go back to 6v6
2-remove role passives
3-go back in some reworks(mei, cass, sombra, orisa, doom)
4-delete push bring back 2cp at least for qp
Push is so much better than 2cp lmao that shit was cancer also all the reworks they did were good especially orisa, doom, and cass. Having double shield comps was a big reason Ow1 fell apart it was just boring to play against double shield
@@majicconch7104 For me 2cp was better, the reworks for some characters felt good but for the most of them it just ruined their entire gimmick, and double shield wasn't a 6v6 problem it was a balance problem.
But that's just my opinion you can have yours.
@@majicconch7104 doom rework is awful, cree stun was honestly not even as bad as his current one, and if we went back to 6v6 cree stun and dps doom would fit back in 100x better. Orisa is fine how she is now ability wise, too strong rn but fine, she could've been balanced out for sure to remove hard double sheild meta. Mei is the only rework I actually think is genuinely good. As for 2cp and push, its hard to argue which one is more shit, Id say push is worse but I think thats just up to the individual. I dont think you can factually say that doom is better now, hes been gutted as a hero, hes boring to play most of the time and not really fun to play against either, but I think thats more of a 5v5 problem than a doom problem tbh.
@majicconch7104 Push is just steam roll or be steam rolled. Is one team gets it 50% you basically need to team kill 2-3 times to catch up XD
At least with Push you get to actually have team fights, even if you need to win 2-3 of them to catch up. 2CP was just 4 mins of teammates walking in 1 by 1, so you never actually have a team fight because you needed to work as a team, which obviously never happened@@alicenull807
I think the support passive is an insane contribution to the game. Before most supports had to have SOME sort of self-healing ability. By giving supports the role passive, it's opened up supports to have that 1 extra button of utility because they don't need to worry about healing themselves as much anymore. Instead of needing a regen burst button, kiriko can have swift step on top of her wall climbing. Somehow LW ran out of buttons despite having a support passive. They're too overkitted and opening up that extra button by not needing a self heal option has given them a whole extra option to have yet more utility added to their kit.
Yea the role passives are awful features that just bloated the game's stats. Some characters greatly benefit from it more than others (Winston with damage reduction, Kiriko having self-sustain on top of insanely strong utility, pre-nerf Genji where he basically couldn't be hit because of how fast he was) and it just adds more issues than it fixes.
I’m so glad to hear you talk about these problems. All the problems are from no second tank. It’s a fact, because if tanks just die like they should from dps then all the tank players will leave. You can’t die on cooldown so heals have to go up then damage which gets high damage to be meta but you just stand there hoping to kill the tank. It’s way too much
i think they need to add a 6v6 comp with 5v5 and see what gets played more for a real answer
Dude lets be real everyones playing 6v6 if that was an option
@@nathancasey7712not so sure, there's alot of 5v5 enjoyers out there and will tell us that we are on some high grade cope.
And their argument is almost always double shield (fixable btw)
The 6v6 would be so busted with current balancing. Would be so hard to balance both modes at once
@@ZZHawkshow? They could just keep the numbers for 6v6 separate from 5v5 numbers. Like 99% of the work for 6v6 balancing has already been done so they can copy off of it and reap the success like they’ve done for pretty much all of ow2
@@SpiritedFalconTrue hahahah
I used to be a bit on the OW Forum, people blaming 2x Shield were 90% of the time fucking gold - plat. Buddy, you never ever played correct 2x Shield just shut up, only because big streamer has to play it, doesnt mean it affects you.
I miss 6v6 so badly 😢
6v6 was way better! I'm also a Dva main. Have been for many years. But now in 5v5, Dva is one of the easiest tanks in game to hard counter with just another tank. Not to mention sym, mei ect overkill. With 6v6, there was alot more options and viability in the tank picks and less rock paper scissors counter pick game. I forced myself to learn more tanks because of 5v5s dva being so hard countered. And now play other tanks more than my own main simply because I am forced too within the fist few min of a game.
Also my friend and I used to duel tank and was the most fun we had in OW. which we obviously can't do now.
Something else I noticed is that as a dive enjoyer, I used to target supports more than anyone else. Now it's dps first, then chase or kill supports, then maybe eventually kill the tank. Any other order often feels like way more effort. Tanks are really hard to kill, and supports are too while they have abilities,but you can chase them away.
In college. I was depressed and I spent maybe a thousand hours or something crazy like that playing overwatch. It was my biggest savior on those lonely nights. I can’t even play more than one quick play match. Also I had almost every skin. When they did all this weird account merging and switching I lost everything. Everything and honestly at this point don’t care to get it back. I can’t stand playing tank anymore and somehow feel guilty constantly playing dps. It’s weird this game has become a big lesson in greed. Standing on a billion dollars, each for $5 more and watch it all crumble at a pace you couldn’t dream of. This is crazy.
But think about all the cool 20$ skins they’ve made!!
Why is this comment so far down?
I enjoyed 6v6 so much more. It felt very balance actually, and you were able to cover for your teammates a lot more since you have an extra tank. Plus people who had a whole group of 6, couldn't play anyone that was sad. I really miss 6v6.
my biggest 6v6 argument is that you cant convince me that a rein/queen tank duo would not have been some of the most fun the game could offer lol
queen with most tanks would be hella fun 😭
Emongg and Flats would have the time of their life...
Tank was a slippery slop in ow1 - it was all fun and dandy when you had unique comps like Zarya+Road, but then you play comp where there's Orisa+Sigma or Rein+Orisa and you do nothing but shoot barriers for 10 minutes.
Ah yes 5v5 , the reason I stopped playing. It’s simple bring back 6v6 I’ll come back.
I'd love to see this discussed on the Group Up podcast now that 5v5 has had some time to sit with players
Well, last time Flats, SVB, Ml7 and Freedo all said they prefer 5v5 and that 6v6 would bring nothing to the table
I need samito in there to hear their points, because everything in this video counters everything that someone who prefers 5v5 would say
Except that OW2 has faster gameplay or more carry potential, but tbh if i wanted that id play a different game
6v6 was just so special
5v5 felt so fun until they hyper buffed supports to the point where nothing can be killed unless you ran a one shot character
The support power creep is real.
You are right but it was needed , support experience was miserable in the beginning, I think we really need 6 vs 6 again
@@raffyarceus995v5 is objectively better
5v5 never felt fun imo, when the beta was up i still played OW1
I mean I really enjoy all the power creep that Lucio got coming in to Overwatch 2! Wait, what do you mean he just got nerfed? I have to swap to Kiriko most of the time so I'm not at an inherent disadvantage in solo que? Oh.. ok..
Unironically, 6v6 would bring me back
I will never get why they had to make the game 5v5 because you are losing one tank and some of these tanks aren't meant for the frontline. I hope they smell the roses and revert the change back to 6v6.
27:14 That fight with that brig alone is a great example of how obnoxious both tank / supps have become. because they just both never freaking die.
Great takes! You've changed my mind!
The one main thing that bothered me with 6v6 as a tank player was that the tank synergy meta comps were so religiously believed by our terribly toxic playerbase, that if you picked tank second and didn't complete the matching pair, then teammates would whine and throw... degrading match integrity.
I hoped and believed that OW2 would allow me to finally freely pick my tank without pairing pressure.
However
1) OW2 at launch tank queue was too popular because everyone wanted to be the big badass and it was easy to feel good cause no one knew how to play 5v5, so I never got to play tank
2) and now here we are that no one plays tank because everyone figured out how to focus the tank down making it very difficult to finish anyone off, and no paired tank to share the matches with
All your points are spot on.
We really deserve a proper attempt at rebalancing 6v6.
And the skill ceiling and strategies and opportunities all lowered because of simple math of having less combinations.
I’ve always thought what they should’ve done was keep 6v6 in open Q, that way the older players who prefer not to play role Q, and prefer 6v6, would be happier. I think differentiating between the two competing modes would make the game better and unique. Maybe two different metas in two different modes. Would be super interesting in to watch imo. I still like 5v5 and role Q, but that’s just my personal take :)
I think 6v6 would feel a lot better with the current roster of heroes. With the roster getting larger it actually makes more sense to have 1 more role. Would also reduce que times. I argued the original model would have been more fun with the addition of a 3rd dps slot rather than removing a tank slot.
I was an off tank player in t2, and loved it. Not having my role exist anymore made me stop playing tank fully. I've missed 6v6 and besides that power creep across the board of damage and healing makes it feel like you just explode the second you make a mistake like not blocking an anti nade or getting hooked.
I agree. I said this when it dropped and everyone was like no 6v6 sucks I hate it. Nah you just hated that they didn’t give us more heroes and change the meta from what it was. You hated 2CP not 6v6 you hated shields not 6v6
I dont get how people who played for 6 Years can say 6v6 sucked, mf you played the game for 6 years cant be that bad
And then they act like these 3 years of 2x Shield is all 6v6 ever was, when in reality all metas from 2016 - 2019 (Yes even goats that just lasted too long) where 10x more fun than anything i played in OW2
This community will only accept 6v6 if they either
1. Have the brain capacity to understand that 2x Shield was fixable and only lasted so long because the devs didnt care/worked on OW2
2. If we get a 6v6 patch with less CC and less Shields, everyone would see the format is superior to that bs that 5v5 is
I completely agree. I believe this was a lazy, quick, temporary “fix” for the game. Most Overwatch players would agree that the format of 6v6 felt better and more fun if they balanced the game correctly, like the patch from October 2020( don’t quote me on that). All the streamers were happy with the patch and said, Don't CHANGE ANYTHING. And what’d they do? Ruin the game by buffing brig and nerfing Genji. The game would have been fine, IMO, if they tried to balance more often in 6v6.
Edit: October 2020, not 2021
Also, Seagull made a video on the patch
That patch was awesome
But true, yknow i introduced a friend to OW in like January 2022, he really liked 6v6 and tried getting all achivements
We played a lot till October
What happend at OW2 release? He played 1 week of 5v5 and never touched the game again
I mean i cant blame him out of my 4200 Hours OW, 4000 are from OW1, 5v5 is shit
I personally enjoy 5v5 more, but I think 6v6 could be better since it’s not a shield fest anymore
yeah, fuck shield fest. I personally don't pay attention to all these mersy mainers comments. No way dps player would enjoy 6v6 more if he isn't gold or something
@@teatime5543I’ve been 4k sr since s6 maining projectile dps. Getting gm1 in overwatch2 feels pretty similar to like 35-3800. Here’s a player significantly better than you that prefers 6v6. There’s a whole lot more, but they don’t play this trash anymore which is part of the reason gm1 is so uncompetitive. Lol
@@anarwaleftw oh,, hello, junkrat player. You are not better than mercy mainers
It instantly would become that again. Giant bloated health pools that have CC's and can in the right circumstances, one-shot characters are impossible to balance. They'd need to revert absolutely every single change they've made in OW2 for that, and that will not happen.
I hit rank 1 playing dps and I enjoy 6v6 more as a dps player. you are just braindead wrong when you think 6v6 was less enjoyable. supports literally do more damage than dps now. @@teatime5543
The absolute truth is that the original OW was never a finished game.
5 v 5 works better in Paladins or League of Legends because you can't switch characters, but you can buy items to make up for team weaknesses, and counter your opponent with items.
I find it very simple. After 5v5 I have found myself playing 10x less simply because there are exponentially more gameplay elements that have become less fun and rewarding as a direct result of the format change from 6v6. And no, changing to 5v5 would not in a million years have been what I would've thought the game needed to balance its existing issues, they were pure balance team neglect issues, not actual format issues. Role lock was a good addition all things considered, but it was also the only good thing the dev team did for game balance in the last 7 years.
I seriously played the faq out of 6v6 on the last days of OW1, ironically it felt so good, like, the best balance the game had ever seen for years, ofc tho some heroes were busted like roadhog (literally he was at the top on the leaderboards), but it was such a fun, enjoyable and somewhat balanced experienced. I was genuinely sad when it came to an end because I knew for a fact OW was never ever going to be the same with 5v5, and indeed, it was never and will never be the same...
Same, had so much fun in even Graveyard Season, now it just lost its special feel, ow is just so bland as 5v5 its crazy how people say its better
They forget OW 6v6 can be the best competitive gaming experience (2016 - 2018 showed it) but people only think about "2x Shield" thats why they are happy 6v6 is gone
If they went 5v5 during dive in 2017, people would have gone mad so fast lmao
@@heiko2255 Supports feel too good
I think one of the major reasons for 5v5 is the new engine, the game have way more lag and bugs than OW1, if you put one extra hero on each team the game would explode. I think the game would be better, but lots more heroes would need reworks (but not like Sombra rework, that thing was terrible; pros were already complaining on her on alpha or beta 1 of OW2, they're 'fixing' her for season 7!!!)- but they always come with the excuse "but people LOVE that playstyle/hero/ability" or "confort pick"
Ah idk about that man I'm having way more issues with the game now than I did with overwatch 1
They broke double tank friendships
The custom sleep dart time for tanks sets such a weird precedence. Notice it's not a tank role passive, like reduced CC in general, just reduced CC on that one ability.
I’ve been in so many matches where my team dominated the match, yet, still lost. We had the top scores on the board, but, they had the “right” hero comp, so, we lost. I remember when my squad used to stay up all night and play- win or lose. Now we hop on for two matches and get sick of it because it’s such a mess
i never play tank anymore in OW2 because its just so boring and awful and i dread doing all Q daily/weekly
100% agree, i want 6v6 back
i would rather play double shield than 5v5
Tanks got overbuffed, as a character archetype, since they need to spread the same amount of attention and resources over twice the frontline presence.
Supports were buffed offensively as DPS now have way more free reign, with one less tank to control off angles.
They also kinda need the support passive by design of every other member of a team has up to 2 support options, whereas being one, you kind of miss out, especially with peel feeling like a forgotten or outdated concept.
Dps have remained mostly the same I think (don't follow patch notes anymore). Some duels feel too consistently one sided, but that might just be me.
Some of our main reasons for making the shift from 6v6 to 5v5 were:
A) because not enough people were interested in playing tank. The cast play style has too many cooperation dependents, and is more convoluted than the average shooter character archetype.
B) The role became too difficult for blizzard to balance in an engaging manner, where tanks don't just compound their defense's by cycling, and regenerating, their abilities. (Windows of opportunity scale inversely proportional to total uptime per period).
5v5 intended to appeal to a more casual audience, and with expectation of a more casual audience I feel we've actually pushed beyond and enabled the expectation of a totally casual, uncooperative and interactive competitive experience.
Too many polarising mechanics. To me, beam type weapons are an example of overwatch's totally unnecessary counter-mechanic characteristics. Something like deflect being not just inoffensive against these weapon types, but totally ignored, is an unnecessarily polarising mechanic.
Others could include:
- Javelin spin vs Melee (dmg is acknowledged both ways)
- Melee vs Grasp (Maybe, not certain)
- Deflect vs Beams
- EMP vs ultimates
- Anti vs Tanks (Solution/2nd hand need later)
- One shots
- Discord (calls for elaboration)
- Stacking turret slow
- Shotguns vs tank hitbox
- Damage boost
Mid support main since ow1 here. I have felt for a long time that we've been playing this stupid act of buffing both burst dmg and healing for so long that we needed up resorting to lamp.
Moving from ow1 to 2, I felt support was super unfun, being fodder by design, and it seems the more defensive stability we've given them, the more players of other roles dislike it for "being dps".
I think the crossroads I have with the role balance is "how much do we want to prescribe our role, of the titles we oy described them as in ow1".
For me support until the 5th season was best explained as "strong... in all the least engaging ways": Healbot (you do it), discord (you do it), nano (you do it), speed boost (you do it), damage boost (you do it), kitsune (you do it).
I think the game suffers way too much from the amount of healing players receive, and then conversely, the amount of time players have to spend healing. It's both frustrating and boring.
I think ow would be far better off if we had a steady set of resources we engage a fight with. Over time, damage slowly wins the tides over sustain. Support gets to spend less time enabling someone else to do something, and instead engages with them, with offensive utility in place of generic damage. Tanks aren't slave to LoS of supps. By nerfing healing, we've reduced the potency of nade.
Last tid bit. Is tanks having a hitbox far larger than the rest of the cast a totally necessary characteristic? Body blocking hasn't been a primary pressure absorption mechanic for a long time, and it seems to be the bane of a lot of mechanics (shotguns & CC).
If nothing else. I think just in terms of this video and it's discussion logistics, I think comparing strength of a role with its number of strong abilities isnt necessarily a fair correlation. I think we constantly talk about the strength of tank and support in terms of how the cast decides the rest of the team comp, where I think it's more so that tanks and supports have far greater variety in utility than dps. Therefore the consequences of synergy are going to fall more heavily on which ones are chosen, but I could be wrong.
I only played the first week of OW2, had over 1500 hours in OW1 as a tank main, 5v5 is what made me quit the game for good
as a hanzo main from 2016 to 2022 when i quit, 6v6 felt better to play as a sniper and felt more rewarding to play. I miss how much it took to climb the ranks and the ability to one trick a hero and adapt to any scenario as a character. Also the supports in ow made me stop playing the game along with the 5v5.
its funny whenever hanzo got a "calculated" headshot its luck, but when support shot a dps 3 times while having 600ehp is skill
Supports made you quit while playing a 1 tap hero with less tank to contest you due to one less tank? Skill issue man. Hanzo has it easy rn.
I’m a ball main. I have never wanted to die more than I have in 5v5
I honestly prefer 5v5 more, the solo carry potential is so much higher. Fights in OT aren't as BS and stall heavy. I like fast paced gameplay, having to wait for 5 other random people was always so difficult to do. Rotations are so much easier, communication(when there is any) is usually not as jammed with people saying different stuff
yeah make Basketball 4v4 so it will have more solo carry potential
🤩
if you want solo carry potential, you should play a 1v1 game or a game with 1 shot headshots like siege
i can see why solo carrying would be fun but overwatch is not a solo carry game. it is a team game where it is unrealistic to have one member of the team carry, which is partly why snipers are broken.
@@AdamNChargeor play 5v5 and enjoy it, like this guy does. You are no one to tell anyone what to do
@@CocoonpawzZ0 someone couldn’t top frag in a real FPS so they came to OW 🤭
@@AdamNChargefootball is 11v11 and has "carry" potential so your basketball analogy is completely off
The idea that people can't carry in team games is disingenuous and stupid
Not surprising coming from a Sam fan
I never played OW 1, I have about 500 hours in OW 2. The game definitely has a super steep learning curve. I hover around gold-plat and I main support. Its super hard to aim in this game considering how erratically people move. I find a ton of people in my games have little understanding of the macro game being played as well. People refuse to change characters or playstyles. The tank role seems like a role I'd be most suited to play based on my personallity and skill set, but the role just feels empty. I feel like theres a ton of combat problems that tanks are capable of solving but theres too many things the tank is required to do at once. 6v6 feels like it would solve most of the issue's in gameplay I've experienced.
Well I really think the main issue is that the Tank role has become too important / crucial. If your tank player is bad or getting diffed then your team is fucked. As compared to having a second tank so they can play off eachother or he can carry the other thank a bit. Having 2, like you said, just reduces accountability which is very important not only for making plays but also for having fun and not getting in a bad mood when the leaderboard makes it look like you’re the sole reason you’re losing.
Can you please Update the 6v6 or make a 6v6 workshop code that is balanced and easily findable (I'm early in the vid, so if you mention this in the video just ignore me)
I would like to see a handful of 6v6 games always on the workshop I could jump into
Fr.
I remember everything being so excited about the 5v5. All the overwatch creators were hyping it up so much, I dont believe that the majority was against it
I think everyone was just willing to give it a chance. its like when you are really hungry, you will give any food a chance. We were straved for 3 years. Can't really blame it.
I think they we're just clouded by the game being abandoned for years. It's like, you'll take anything new at that point.
@@WorldKeepsSpinnin i wasnt. i hated it the instant i heard them say it. i climbed to GM tank duoing with my friend pretty much all the way just dva monkey or rein zarya.
@@quint2568 Yea i didn't really like it either i just had a gut feeling it wasn't going to be overwatch anymore and well i was right.
of course they gonna hype it up, They need to make it sound that way for the viewership lol
Back here 8 months later to still say 6v6 was better ! #bringbackOW6v6
Only Blizzard would design a game to become Game of the Year, and then convince themselves that somehow that design is flawed and needs to be changed fundamentally. You know what other game they did that with? World of Warcraft. Now they have to literally back track, with Ian admitting that they messed up with Retail due to their own stubbornness. I wonder how long it will take the OW team to admit they were wrong.
Daily reminder that *_double supports_* were what allowed all the worst metas we saw in ow1, not double tanks; it's why only one medic is allowed per team in tf2's 6v6 competitive community, *_despite_* said medic having less and weaker tools than every single ow2 support atm.
Also daily reminder that, when supports are so stupidly tanky that the only people most dps heroes can pick off are *_other_* dps heroes, it feels incredibly pointless to be a dps hero in the first place; in other words, literally 2 out of the 3 roles provide almost no meaningful value in this game anymore, simply because of supports. *_Amazing._*
I’ve said this since 5v5 was announced. 6v6 is just better imo
Based! Love it Sam. Thanks for fighting the good fight. People just need to know that OW cannot reach its potential (a gold standard competitive title such as CSGO or LoL) if we are in 5v5. Like it may not be the worst thing ever, but we need to course correct before we go down the 5v5 path too far and miss out on making OW the game it was in 2017, a mainstay in nearly everyone’s gaming rotation and a deep, competitive title people actually took seriously.
Edited for spelling and I want to add this:
Removing a tank also ensures that almost every interaction involves a support pocket. Say you want to secure an elimination- due to tanks having buffed hp pools and supports only having one tank to focus their attention on, tanks are going to usually have 1 if not 2 heroes supporting them. So your individual play making, let alone team focus fire, won’t even bring them down. Then it’s a 50/50 shot if you fight a DPS that doesn’t have a pocket because the support that isn’t healing a tank is usually backing them up. And don’t even think of trying to duel a support, if you’re lucky enough that they aren’t grouped together and you don’t take damage on the way, they have way overbuffed abilities and the other support can lifegrip them across the map and even if you play out of LOS Kiriko can still TP in and suzu. Every support hero also now gets their own self heal after 1.5 seconds so there are a lot of times if you have to disengage, reload or break a Brig shield for even a slight moment it’s like they have their own pocket. Illari literally does (and she’s the healthiest OW2 support). So basically the entire game is just the DPS having the illusion of a more fun FPS game because there aren’t two shields, but if you look any deeper it’s really just taking DPS duels and hoping they don’t have a pocket (and it’s not like it takes that long to swap targets and help a DPS). I heard someone say it’s a 3v3 game with a DPS minigame. It truly does feel like that sometimes.
I stopped playing because of 5v5
The game is definitely way more 1-dimensional with 5v5, but at the same time, we are distorting our perception of the good old days of OW1 without taking into consideration how the game objectively behaved compared to the last few years of OW1.
If you look at any footage of OW1 from the first 3 years, you will notice that almost every hero literally moved slower. Their attack animations were slower, & cast time of some abilities were slower.
The game we experienced slowly sped up with incremental updates without us realizing that the entire player base was on training wheels from the get go.
Us old OW1 players improved over time, but so did the game's level of feedback for our level of experience.
New players of OW2 will never get that type of first time experience, where they don't feel like they're being bombarded by sensory overload, 5v5 or not.
- - - - - - - - - -
(I personally like the fast pace gameplay that OW1 was at, during its peak with mobility, before they removed all momentum to all abilities, due to the crazy knockbacks from CC abilities. But the average player never experienced high paced games that start occurring from Diamond rank, so they defaulted to not liking the fast pace of 5v5. And the sudden increase in the pacing that occurred cross the entire board was another byproduct of 1 less tank to not force enemies from not being able to utilize the entire map space in these short rounds during matches.)
I miss 6v6 so much. My favorite game of all time has been taken from me. No more being a charged zarya or playing hog. My mei is gone too. Let’s start a movement to bring it back or at least create a game mode for it in custom games.
With 6v6, even when Overwatch was at some of it's weakest points, I was still playing at leat once or twice a week. After 5v5 I played a little and then dropped it entirely.
Of course my disappointment with the cacellation of PvE played a part in my choice too, but as a Reinhardt main it suddenly felt weird to play. I think what you said about being a puppet to supports may have been a part of it but the truth is despite all of the super buffs I truly felt like I had less power to make plays.
I always felt like the devs changed to 5v5 to reduce the overall complexity of the game in hopes of alleviating their need to balance the game in the state it was previously. It felt like it was a lazy "fix" for their problems.
I don't know if I'll ever go back to Overwatch now. I really miss playing it but the experience isn't the same. I would challenge Blizzard to reactivate Overwatch as 6v6 before it was shut down alongside Overwatch 2 to see what happens. Let's see what your community would rather play.
In it's current state, I think that old Chinese copycat game that got cancelled back in like 2017 or 18 that had the McCree with big tits might be more fun than Overwatch 2.