Once again: Blizzard tried out 5v5 when developing Overwatch originally, and decided it didn't work as well as 6v6. 5v5 has been KNOWN as a failure since before the game even came out, but Blizzard still tried it and pushed it anyway.
It’s because of que times. You as a community failed to play multiple roles and wanted to one trick. You have failed the game it’s all the communities fault!
@@ZarelidT Queue times became shit because the game was left unsupported for several years. Most players tuned out once it became obvious that OW1 was abandoned in favor of whatever OW2 was going to be and wanted to wait until the game was relevant again.
@@duvetboa if you don’t think it would happen again that’s where you become less believable that you know what you’re talking about. I’m rooting for the game I like 6v6 more. I was that tank in ow1 because it was a demanded role. I wouldn’t mind doing it again but I know the OW community is garbage and they get what they deserve… I have a hard time believing if anyone is genuine in this game anymore just fyi. I believe if it went to 6v6 we’d have maybe ONE good season then it would be the exact same as OW1. Remember they literally took out CP2 because players could NEVER figure out how to coordinate properly leading to many awful games. The community that couldn’t figure out how to play as a team is expected to know what they want from the game? I wouldn’t trust any of the OW community honestly
Each role having two slots was perfect. - It really puts the pressure off you if you’re having a bad day - gives you a partner to directly play off of and match their rhythm - lets you fill different roles (on and off role basically) Now tanks are just stuck being either one-note or overtuned. It’s like if a musical duo is reduced to one guy, either he can only play half the song or grow an extra pair of arms to play both and neither is a pretty option.
Also because counterswapping the tank was more difficult in 6v6 with the other tank in mind, like simply swapping to Orisa against Hog wont 100% cancel him out because the other tank in question is Zarya, or something like that. now pretty much everyone picks the counter specifically against the tank.
my most controversial OW opinion is that i actually liked the double shield meta a lot, honestly some of the most fun ive had on OW. Something about it was just really fun to me and i loved how strategic it felt.
And double shield wasnt used at every level of play all the time. Metal ranks whatever they wanted. I was diamond and I had a lot of games without cancer metas in OW1. Ow2 teached even the most casual players to counterpick enemy' tank and to blame thiers. And it killed QP with punishments, every is a sweatlord now.
@@olegdusov4273 I get people crying to me because I "counterswapped" in QP, but I suck too bad to know how to do this lol. Not my fault the game is trash...
That's not how skill works. There will always be a top x%. You get to choose what you want the top x% to be. Do you want the top 0.1% to look like double shield cringe or fast paced fun looking gameplay?
As someone who doesn't play Overwatch, your description (and the clip of) the counterpicking meta gives me the impression that 5v5 is actually a game where two teams have two supports, two DPS, and then one person from each team spends the entire match playing a really weird game of rock-paper-scissors.
@@Variouswiggthey just have to make more cute tanks like dva. Noone wants to play as ball or hog or even winton. Make the role appealing with new characters
That’s cause you’re in an echo chamber. I played 6v6. I dont miss it, was it better? Yeah. Did it destroy the game and make it virtually impossible for anyone to get back into the game? Yeah. I’d rather overwatch actually exist than have a 12% better experience with 6v6(it’s barely better and you guys are blinded by nostalgia)
at this point, I'm not even sure if it's a conspiracy to say that blizzard has been actively trying to kill it's own game. You can't have dozens of asinine decisions one after another like this without either being immensely dense or actively malicious.
They need the dead by daylight treatment where the creator was bullied by players abusing the most broken item in his game so much that the next patch it got nerfed
The team developing this game should be locked in a room and forced to play 25 matches of public quick play on the tank role every single day so they can understand what the problem is. Kind of like what the other person said about Dead By Daylight.
I'd like to point out that Jeff Kaplan himself said 6v6 was the sweet spot for Overwatch and that 5v5 put too much pressure on players. That it would breed toxicity as if you were having an off day or just waned to play something different, your team would hate you because you were TOO important. 6v6 allowed a player who was maybe underperforming or new to be covered by the other players on the team and not have the '[x] player sucks gg go next" effect. As soon as Jeff Kaplan left, all of this got thrown out the window. Whether it was a corporate mandate or Aaron Keller not understanding the game he was walking into (I don't know how he wouldn't, he's not exactly new to the team), they obviously didn't give a damn about what they tested before. Jeff Kaplan knew that 5v5 would not work. The team tested it. AND variations of it including 7v7 and KNEW the issues that came from it. They went foreword with it anyway. Knowing from testing it years prior that it simply wouldn't work. Full Quote from Blizzard's Fourm from Jeff Kaplan: The other fear around a 3-2-1 [3 DPS, 2 Support, 1 Tank] comp is the importance it places on the Tank player. In our playtesting, this has manifested itself in two notable ways. 1) Some players feel a lot of pressure to choose the “correct” tank. If there is only one tank, the team has a very strong opinion about who that tank should be. Another fear around this issue is that metas will be even more limited as players tend to take the “path of least resistance” towards their hero choices. If Reinhardt is deemed meta, do we only see Rein from now on? Are we all mad at our tank player if they play the hamster? 2) Some tank players felt a tremendous anxiety about their performance in the match. They felt like being the lone tank put a lot of pressure on them and if they died, it was a really big deal. Some of our tank/support players who would occasionally play tank stopped playing tank during 3-2-1 and only gravitated toward support because they felt intimidated to be “the main tank” and have so much focus on their play.
Yeah but have you check most video that covers why OW esport failed? Most of them are saying "overwatch is too hard to watch and theres no spot for players who would shine like LOL stars such as faker" THIS. THIS IS THE SOLE REASON why overwatch resort to 5v5. So the game would be better to watch. Also they are lazy to do proper fix to double shield meta
@@3takoyakisthey literally tried all overwatch 1 but 2 tanks was too oppressive. Literally 2 tanks shut out a whole role dps and further crippled have of the dps line up for a whole metta. They absolutely were correct in removing that extra tank no counter play , if you didn’t stick to the very basic rein zarya , Winston dva or worse goats metta you would lose
@@elodropper1469 ow2 meta currently is mauga winston lol. People asked to tone down debuffs and they introduced mauga which cant be taken down unless you use debuff. Making other tank experience really bad
@@3takoyakis and adding another tank to help mauga with passive regen would be an absolute nightmare to deal with. Because that make healers more heal bot type plays styles , half of the dps line up would be useless and tanks would dominate yet again.
Tanks need to be more tanky - Blizzard 2024. Meanwhile, a speed boosted Mauga running arnd the map presses one button. And his entire team becomes unkillable 😂
As for the double shield point, we aren’t advocating for Overwatch 1, we are advocating for 6v6. They need to understand that. (Also bring back the pretty UI stuff we had in ow1 like boarders lol)
With their claim of game would be frequently balanced, double shield shouldnt be a problem The 5v5 versus 6v6 issue is same thing as vainglory try to follow 5 lane formula instead of their usual 3 lane The results were devastating. The heroes are never being made for 5 lane and hype died after several months
@@3takoyakis never thought i'd see vainglory get mentioned in 2024. it was just item powercreep, namely the support items that were too impactful in a 5v5 setting. Unlike 3v3, the 5s meta favored using more than 1 Support/Tank heroes, and so the meta eventually consisted of 3 Supports, and 2 DPS, resulting in longer stretched out fights and who could better manage their support items. But ultimately, they just made too many poor business decisions and couldn't profit was the reason it died
@@mochi.20 i missed vainglory every day poor business decision from beginning yeah. Also scammy practices draining people opal near 5v5 release they also decided to copy MLBB since it is deemed to be the successful business model. the worst thing is they even copy the goddamn UI
The crazy thing is that they absolutely destroyed shields at the same time as taking away one tank. Sigma, Rein and Orisa were the main offender in double shield, now Orisa has no shield and Reinhardt is borderline useless
@nicoperez9984 entire game system was made for 6v6 and they didn't really compensate for when they made it 5v5, its like taking a whole position out of a sport , like shooting guards out of basketball
They can't spend 10+ years on a 6v6 game and then flush everything down the toilet and make it 5v5. We will just have to sit through every attempt at a solution until they finally realise 5v5 is flawed format.
I remember when ow2 was coming out. Not only is 5v5 completely ass. But we waited 2-3 years for a single update in ow1 just to get railed with an awful meta for the rest of the game. Pve was promised and cancelled. 5v5 was a failure and the continued for 2 years to fix it… it’s still not working. At least in 6v6 the game was enjoyable. Yes it wasn’t perfect. But I would much rather shoot 2 shields all day long then play a game where I can’t play a character because a silver player can compete with a GM player simply cuz of a hero pick.
@@emma6648 in silver i managed to one vs one tank even mauga with Bad aim as Brigitte because they struggle in close fight, si i highly doubt your claim
5v5 caused me to fully quit the game. Uninstalled 6 months ago, haven't touched it since. I am an OG player, played since November 2016. I won't even consider playing the game again unless the format goes back to 6v6.
Same, i was an advocate for remaining 6v6 from the moment 5v5 was mentioned, even when it released i was still willing to try it even though i wasnt a huge fan. It just wasnt the same game anymore and not for the better. 6v6 would be enticing i must admit but i personally just think the first game, even in its final years, was massively superior to whatever the game has become now.
Now i only play mystery heroes for fun (playing dice is still more fun than playing rock paper scissors) or open queue to play a specific character or mess around with whacky comps Playing tank on role queue im 5v5 sucks all the fun out of the game
Imagine being a Doom you had to play 4D chess to get some viability out of your character and you managed to win the first team fight against a Dva and now the unkillabe horse and her band of merry CCers come marching along to destroy your chance of having a good time
Honestly one of the reasons why I flex to JQ. THEY UNIRONICALLY NERFED ORISA, THOUGHT SHE WAS DOING TERRIBLE (she wasn’t) AND COMPENSATION BUFFED HER COOLDOWNS? CRAZY
I mean.. is Doomfist not an absolute CC machine himself? It's OK for you to pinball squishies into walls and out the map but the moment they want to push back you complain about it? I get that being bombarded with CC as Doom is not fun but neither is being on the receiving end of his punches.
@@Kurppalumppu right now even if you get value out of block the punch does less stun time/knockback than what a Orisa Javelin can do. Not to mention her damage isn’t locked behind jumping into a crowd of people with her non existent damage falloff and fortify (which got rebuffed btw). Orisa javelin is literally doom’s only source of “hard cc” and it’s much much safer because you aren’t)t attached to it and fortify makes you immune to headshot and CC. THAT’S the difference.
then they later claimed that their philosophy changed and wanted counter picking to be a core mechanic in the game and now recently went back on that statement saying they want to try to make counter picking less effective. They can't decide what they want the game to be.
They also said that supports can attack as well but instead they were focused on healbotting. The sec supports go dmg mode the tank would just fall apart. It's even worst in S9.
The fact anyone believes them anything anymore is baffling to me. After all the lies, tricks and lawsuits why do people still think blizzard cares for the game except how much money they can milk with skins and battle passes? At this point, if Blizzard told me the sky is blue, I still would look out the window just to make sure.
I am addicted to watching people bash 5v5. Might be crazy but they could just release a playlist with 6v6 that has the nerfed tanks from mystery and ffa and they would have the data they need. They would instantly know what tanks would need tweaks and how popular 6v6 would be compared to 5v5. We could be in the loud minority here.
Make tank unfun to play with 5v5 -> people stop playing tank -> “we must keep 5v5 because few people play tank” Superb. Just superb. Solving a problem they created, stonks.
I love tanks in every single game I play. Overwatch is just unfun to play a tank in because of the format. To remedy, I would play a gamemode they had where you could pick as many of them as you want, and it was way more fun for me
Something you didn't touch on when you were talking about Double Shield the most heinous examples of old Double Shield were Sigma + Orisa Because those characters could just, throw down their shield, and still operate fully But now Orisa has no shield. so she's out of that equation You have Rein: But if Rein is holding up his shield, he is unable to do anything else, he has to choose between shielding, and swinging / fire striking etc Ramattra also has a shield, but his shield only lasts for 4 seconds, and he cannot access the shield in his Nemesis form So yeah I don't think Double shield would be nearly as much of an issue as some make out to be
Hell, even if they didn't rework Orisa, Junker Queen's Rampage and her axe makes her a direct counter to Double Shield because both abilities ignore shields, Brig and Bap don't have a counter to her forced anti save for Field (and you can break that), and the only thing you would have to bait out is Sigma Rock. Reinhardt/JQ as a duo (or even JQ/Winton) would kill Double Shield.
7:10 is quite literally the opposite of what OW stands for. "Never accept the world as it appears to be, dare to see it for what it could be." -Dr. Harold Winston
Tank in 6v6 had an identity. The supportive yet high damaging target which the enemy couldn't ignore due to their ability to peel for higher value targets. In 5v5 the only goal for tank is to sit and soak damage and hope they don't die. Balancing this is a nightmare that never ends. There are only 2 ways they can somehow fix this: 1. Make it 6v6(has it's own problems, but manageable) 2. Make it so every tank has no weakness whatsoever and make the skill floor low and skill ceiling slightly higher. Overwatch 2 tries to take the second path. And it ruins the identity of the tanks.
@@Variouswigg queue times aren't great now anyway. If we went to 6v6 I guarantee a lot of old players and current players might wanna play tank. Personally I only play support currently. If we went back to 6v6 I might actually feel like I can play wrecking Ball again.
@@Variouswigg Unfortunately, Queue times are the main reason why they don't go back to 6v6. This would be a major issue for dps players spesifically, but if the game stays free then a lot more people will have access to the game and queue times might be around the same. If only 1-2 minutes longer
Going back to that "5v5, solo support" example, and how supports would need to be giga-buffed since no one can cover their weaknesses. I feel like Kiriko would be even more meta without any changes (Despite already being meta in "5v5, solo tank" for an exhausting and boring 11 seasons straight), because Kiriko can do everything and doesn't have any real weaknesses. (Kind of like Sigma in OW1) In retrospect, she's being balanced as if there isn't another support, which is just weird. Another obvious example is Bap, who has noticeably less weaknesses than other support heroes (Even before OW2). Bap (alongside Brig) is the entire reason why OW1 became so bad with double shield. But, of course, even to this day, Blizzard would rather change literally everything about the game instead of nerf a support hero. Brig too strong? Role Queue Brig still too strong and Bap too? Move to 5v5 Too much healing? Season 9 role passive changes
It's crazy that you released this BEFORE Blizzard did yet another gigabuff tank patch by buffing armor, buffing tank passive, and buffing literally every tank at least 1 way (most more than one). Unreal.
What most keep forgetting is there are two supports and two dps. Two. Again. Two. Even if a character or class is objectively "bad" having a second person being able to do some of the responsibilities your class can do, really really makes a huge difference. Sometimes it's not about eliminating or numbers. Sometimes it's about time and how much focus a team puts in one direction or goal. Or more importantly, lack there of.
There was a post that explaining why 5v5 games is so toxic yet more players equal fun (WOW and such) Because less pressure on each players. If someone fucked up, the others would cover. But nowadays gaming are moving towards 5V5 and shitsports. Why? Because its better to watch for marketability. When you watching sports, you either know the entire group or some star players. They push it to the extreme for esport. Which is not something overwatch should follow. But all advice towards successfull esports are always "you must make a system where an individual shine to the fullest to maximaze hype generated"
Watching someone pulled off team kill alone? SO HYPE But is it fun to play and grind to reach that kind of level? Ofc not Then again riot 500$ LOL faker bundle exist because of this flawed esport system (Riot have an ENTIRE department for toxicity and yet they cant figure this out)
@@3takoyakistoxicity is an unsolvable issue, the only way to reduce it is to take away the players communication tools, but that would only end in frustration and more creative types of toxicity
6v6 is better I WASNT EVEN THERE AND I AGREE. i seen ow1 games then ow2 games they like night and day. 6v6 looks more fun. mins the double shields and goat meta
@@lytepk This doesn't make any sense. They are obviously biased towards a game they haven't played because of getting videos like yours in their recommendations. You don't find people blindly following your ideas concerning at all?
@@KBReal870 Yeah this is the problem with a lot of people who demand 6v6 back from emotionally charged reasons. They will accept anyone circle-jerking the notion of 6v6 even those whose opinions are completely irrelevant.
5v5 is the format that we LITERALLY DID NOT ASK FOR. Like what? As one of the comments said, pros tested it, said it was terrible, and begged to not implement. Back in 6v6, sustain has been a big issue since we had aoe healers: Bap and Brig. When combining these two, aoe healings can reach the level of single target healing which is an unhealthy balance. Which is why we had comps like goats and double shield. And about counterpicking in the tank role. In OW2, it's necessary because tanks have so much stats due to being solo tanks. In my tank games, if I don't get hard countered, I can take over lobbies because it's really hard for the dps and supports to deal with me. But as soon as they swap to hard counter me, it goes in a complete 180. There is no in between: it's either you take over lobbies or just straight up don't have fun. And a lot of times, I experience the second part to the point where I straight up don't want to play that role anymore.
100% agreed. It's so rough man. Ive been actually playing ow2 quite a bit especially after season 9 changes. But as someone who has reached pot 500/gm on every roll in the first game more than one time, it just doesn't feel anywhere near as thought-provoking or like you have as much agency, especially in the tank role. Counter swapping being such a lucrative strategy in all roles really is one of the things that kills my vibe
i fully agree with everything you said, its truly sad about how 5v5 defenders will ignore the fact that 5v5 has gotten way more love then 6v6 ever did, if the devs we have today worked on 6v6 it would actually have gotten the problems with double shield fixed and it would feel infinitely better than 5v5
I only started the game with the kpop collab after years on the "to try" list and they clearly do, the game was left to the side for 2 years in 6 vs 6 and in 5 vs 5 we get free game, frequent update and content, like they just woke up someday and decided to not let the game die
@axelt6312 well no, they promised they would deliver better content to PVP since PVE is dead but The contents we get aka skins quality are getting worse. More recolor are being made. Less content in battlepass and less customization for mythic skin itself. We get less events than usual, we get 2 and even 1 per season instead of 3. We DONT get advertises for new event such as new maps and new mode clash. THERES NO RATE UP ON NEW MAP OR NEW MODE. WTF BLIZZARD. And they keep pushing hero mastery that no one wants. Its not hero mastery, its hero map memorizing to get high score. We want tutorials, not ninja warrior like mode Community make a hero mastery better than overwatch Dev.
@@axelt6312yeah bud you’ve been here for like less than a year of course you don’t find any problems with 5v5 or the fact the game was left stale for three years because of a broken promise
The issue is that the balancing team refuses to acknowledge they have no idea what they're doing, causing them to make more and more stupid format changes
Randomly had this recommended to me, usually don’t click on channels that I’ve never heard of that have low numbers but I’m so glad I watched this video. You got a new sub man this video was great
Couldn't agree more with this video. I never even played the first game, I never experienced OW in its peak, but I DEMAND 6v6 come back. It's actually stupid to have just the one. The game plays worse and has suffered dearly for it. And I don't even really like OW, never have. I play OW2 because I had friends who play it, so I play it. Even if I don't like it, OW2 is free and it's something else to do with my friends. And I can see the glaring flaws of removing one of the tanks. The game is fundamentally built around a 6v6 environment, and Blizzard have ruined it. Good video.
Best part is: we change to 5v5 so double shield is not a problem anymore" ... "And rework Oriss so she doesn't have a shield" ..... But than why go to 5v5 than? LUL
What would it take for blizzard to be willing to swallow their pride and go back to 6v6? Atp all their dumb changes have accumulated and in order to return they would have to have the players best interest in mind😂
I feel like at this point if the game collapses, q times go over an hour, people will just leave, Microsoft will abandon the game and shut down the servers. There's no reason for the "2" in the Overwatch 2 to exist aside from 5v5 format.
Oh they will Have you check MARVEL RIVALS? They make their game 6v6 Months after that, Aaron said they discussing to put back 6v6 This accompanied by DOZENS of hero shooter game release in 2024 - 2025. Like, seriously for no reason, companies are reviving hero shooter genre Overwatch must do something drastic to keep their player base. They even have transformers collab in Marvel rivals launch soon
@@he.5865 "You think a for profit company cares about pride?" This is Blizzard we're talking about. Their pride coming back to bite them in the ass has happened repeatedly at this point. "Do you all not have phones?!" When Diablo Immoral was announced. "You don't want that. You think you do, but you don't." When asked about bringing back old WoW servers by a majority of their audience at Blizzcon (prior to making Classic WoW, and they only really did that because a noticeable chunk of the playerbase left after they took down the Homebrew vanilla expansion servers). Blizzard might be for-profit and as greedy as a company could be, but they're not desperate.
I’m ngl I didn’t care for going back to 6v6, but your video has swayed me, not that I hate overwatch 2 or anything, I actually love overwatch 2 but the counterpick stuff was all I needed Keep up the good content 🔥
Good video, I used to have fun playing tank back in OW1 but in OW2 its just horribly boring. Can't play what I want I have to counter swap constantly it's just ridiculous.
Also, what people say about que times in 6v6 is a myth. The hero distribution was horrendous. You cant have double the amount of dps heroes than both tank and support combined, and expect there not to be more dps players. Its not the entire reason or cause behind favored roles, but a significant one. The game was also pay walled and abandoned while many other popular f2p titles existed.
yeah well, there is still 20 fkg dps against 10 poor tanks and even less supps today, and dps is .... *surprise* still the most favored class since they have 20 heroes choices on contrary on the others... The fact that they keep releasing dps while the 2 others classes have so few choices is amazing but, it's Blizzard
@@thegipper1215 it was true. The que time chart of ow1 revealed that the average difference between tank and support was just 1 minute. Huge misconception literally everyone has for some reason, that people didnt want to play tank specifically. The devs literal reciepts show it was just a minute lower than the 2nd least popular, with dps being a huge outlier.
I was a GM tank player in OW1. I didn't touch OW2 for a bit because it was clearly an unfinished game, but I came back to play comp around S4 of OW2 and I quit again right after my first few games. My first experience was playing against a player who was terrible and would constantly counterswap after every fight to find value against me. Even before anyone in the community started talking about the issue of counterswapping, I noticed how bad it was, and it made me quit. It's just not fun playing against a worse player who gets more value because they constantly swap to counter your kit. I'm glad people finally caught onto the issue though. I came back last season for a few more games and the same issue still exists, so I stopped playing again, but I noticed something else too that bothered me. Another thing that makes this game suck outside of counterswapping is how hard it is to punish garbage players because tanks have overloaded kits since they need to function in this format. You used to be able to Sigma rock a vaping Roadhog to secure a kill, now he just gets back up and vapes again. Just no skill expression in this game. It's been balanced and re-designed for the dumbest, low-skill players on tank. Such a shame, but don't see it changing without everyone in the dev team being fired and replaced. It's been 2 years, there's just no excuse anymore.
I think the issue goes back further than the 5v5/6v6 debate, the real point at which this game started getting worse was when they added role restrictions. Having no restrictions was good for casual players because they could play what they wanted to without someone being forced to play something they didn't, and good for competitive players because the most balanced teams were still 2-2-2 splits between all the roles, but you could get more creative and make some awesome plays by losing one to gain another. Role restrictions really weren't an issue competitively until GOATS was the meta, and that is entirely because tanks were too powerful with Brig. Instead of fixing that, which would've been the responsible choice, they gave up and limited how many tanks you could have on your team, allowing one role to be more powerful than the others. Since then, this has continued to be the case, and it's still going to be a problem as long as they keep abusing role queue to avoid balancing their game properly. Supports are notoriously way stronger now than they were in ow1, for example. Even when 6v6 comes back there's going to be no incentive to fix that, because both teams have them, even if they are not fun to play against as other roles.
Problem is Blizzard is way too simple-minded to think of real solutions to problems. Torb has no skill expression and is unviable past metal ranks? Homogenize him so his turrets do almost nothing and his power is counterintuitively is all in Torb himself rather than the turret (though his rework does have some good ideas they should've further built upon, like how his turret prioritizes enemies Torb shot.) GOATS? Role queue. Stuns, knockbacks, and slows everywhere? Just tune the numbers! That's enough to make it feel not as bad, right? RIGHT? And now double shield. Just remove a tank! Not only does that *technically* solve the double shield meta, it also homogenizes our game even further for the viewers and standardizes teamsizes to that of other games like League, Paladins, DOTA and whatnot! It MUST be the answer! God I feel bad for anyone still into OW.
League kinda has the 5s issue where there is a long lane that is 1v1 and you kinda need to get a good matchup or else you are just playing survive for atleast half the game, some times the entire game as you can't get to mid game as your team has just failed the early so hard. Think overwatch but 15 minutes of 1v1 tank where the enemy counterswapped you and neither can change picks, but then your team failed to 4v4 push the cart past the first checkpoint so they vote to end the match, and there is nothing you can do about it
Big streamers were heralding 5v5 as the best thing ever. Shit was so annoying. They were paid to tell us we were wrong and we’re just lowly plat players if we disagree And yes, this included Flats.
I dropped Overwatch the moment they nerfed Genji's mobility a couple of years into the game. I could live with the devs removing 2 seconds off of my ultimate, but the mobility nerfs ruined the character for me. It was at that moment I realised that they had no idea how to balance the game without ruining fun mechanics like triple jump on walls and being able to throw yourself high up in the air if you mastered the ability to dash to ledges in a very specific angle and distance. Stuff like that added extra dimensions to gameplay for those who wanted to master the game, but instead Blizzard patched that out. Haven't touched OW 2 more than a few games at launch so I did not see the full ramifications of 5v5, but it doesn't look like Blizzard learned a darn thing in the last 8 years of having incredibly poor, infrequent, and nonsensical balance patches which ruined the base game for many going all the way into Overwatch 2. Absolutely pathetic.
The funniest part about that "We gotta represent the playerbase as it is, not as we want it to be" is LITERALLY the opposite of what Winston's father said. THEY'RE LITERALLY SO DUMB THAT THEY CAN'T SEE THEY ARE THE EXACT PEOPLE THE PHRASE "Don't accept the world as it is, dare to see it for what it could be" NEEDS TO BE SAID TO, AND THEY INVENTED IT.
Dude the dog clip is just like when 343 acknowledged the fanbases complaints surrounding halo 5 abilities and sprinting and straight up saying "shut up the adults are talking"
This is just like every other industry and politics these days. Everyone is like “HEY CAN YOU ALL STOP BEING DUMB SHITS AND JUST DO THE THING?” And they go “nah, fk you, but still give us money.” Life is kind of miserable these days.
The simple fact that these debates have been going SINCE 5V5 WAS ANNOUNCED means that it never worked. If it did, very few would complain about it. I admit I liked it initially since the game felt way faster overall, but atp I'm begging they go back to 6v6
I started playing this game when i was 15 im 22 btw, and i dont think a single person ever EVER thought that making the game 5v5 would fix anything, the fact that the dev team still did it after the pros said it was an awful idea and shouldnt be a thing, just shows how oblivious they are with this game
Especially with their track record. They make a bad hero, they can’t balance the game properly, then they change the game to disable a particular meta. Case in point: the creation of brig, inability to balance her, 2-2-2 added to remove goats. Same old playbook. It was never going to end well. It was always a sht idea
Overwatch is over. Former OW2 top13 playrr here. took me since ow1 s9. Breaks my fking heart what they did to this game. Destroy everyones mains. Replace gammodes w crap. Add stupid creeping balance, painted themselves in corner. Hotbox changes. No one communicates anymore. No one even studies team comps or positioning or ult combos. Just awful game. No idea how people continue to play this garbage. No OWL and nothing even to be seen at the top. You get to top, same throwers cheaters amd griefers. No money. No pride. Just toxic players wasted time. Ridiculously unhealthy.
People say counter picking takes skill because it requires knowledge how to counter pick. I say “Wow I love a character that can completely deny me regardless of how good they are.”
dude i dont even know why lower rank players cope either. im gold-plat and the game has the exact same issues that drive me nuts. edit: even as a dps main it feels awful. tanks, sustain and denial abilities are so strong that if i want to make sure i have the potential to win i HAVE to counterswap. I want to be able to play tracer or genji and have the potential to win, but you literally cant if you arent 5 times better than the entire lobby
Imagine having a potential buddy covering your back as a tank, some of my friendships from ow are great tank players that I used to play with and it was fun as hell, they went for the easy route and deleted 1 player of the most dynamic roles of the 6v6
I MEAN atp just replace 4v4 team death match into 5v5. And make role queue and open queue 6v6. Revert a lot of changes back to OW1 like health pools, take off role passives, etc etc. If they're worried about queue times, dont even fret because the game is f2p and now has wider audience and even newer players who would gladly try out 6v6.
You make good points but what was I supposed to do in ranked when I get a roadhog one trick on my team on Gibraltar or numbani which means as Winston I get no help
It’s so exhausting playing a tank that you want to play and enjoy when 90% of the games is me vs 3-4 counters. Blizzard clearly understands that 5v5 was a bad idea, but needed a big change due to PVE not coming out.
I've never played 6v6 in ow1, I started early ow2. When supports were Op like season 4 through 7 I was sick and tired of the game as a tank player and the content my favorite creators (Flats, emongg) were posting was depressing to watch. So I decided to watch some of Flats' Ow1 content and it was night and day difference. Flats was full of passion and joy for grinding rank. Even when playing double sheild he and emongg were having a blast together which showed me 5v5 is literal trash when they can be playing a terrible meta and yet still have fun.
Me along with all my friends quit after they changed to 5v5. We are casuals but the teamwork required for 6v6 was way way way more fun than 5v5. The tanks had to have synergy and communicate along with the supports deciding which of them heal the tanks along with the dps discussing how to deal with the 2 tanks. Now its just one fat tank infront which makes the dynamic break apart. Both from a teamplay aspect and from a gameplay aspect. If that tank is poorly positioned and/or he dies, there is no room for the structural lineup to stay intact.
5v5 has never been good. Literally ever. I knew that from the moment I played in the OW2 beta and the teamfights were over the second the tank went down. From there I already saw the natural cascade of balancing so that heals would be buffed in order to give tanks more uptime (they were), then tanks would be unkillable and heals would focus the tank, leaving DPS without heals and thus forcing them to implement a self-heal passive (they did), and now they're getting around to realizing that for the role they play, the tanks are still too dependent on their teammates to stay alive and carry, so tank buffs inbound (well would you look at that....) It's never worked, and it astounds me that anyone defends it this deep into the experiment being an undeniable failure. This is like a medical treatment with a 100% mortality rate: stop killing people, it's not working, cease and desist and go back to what was keeping people alive before. The survival rate might only be 50%, but that's better than 0%.
As a former off tank main, thank you for your service. The game died when they thought giving road hog an extra hundred health would make up for the fact that there isn’t a second tank out there.
I used to really like Jake, he was a good player and fun to watch in the World Cup but him and so many other content creators are such blizzard boot lickers genuinely so sad to see what he’s become, and the worst part is that in that clip he knows there’s less tank players not because they stopped playing but because most OW1 tank players don’t like the 5v5 solo tank style he knows that but he’s riding Blizzard’s tip so hard he just lies about it
Played 6v6 in custom games today and got depressed how much fun i had. Its not even up for debate imo. 6v6 is superior on every way. I dont have the 6v6 code but it was also balanced for 6v6 as well. Thought id hate it but they did very well.
blizzard thinks tanks need to be tankier NO THEY DONT NOBODY LIKES AN UNKILLABLE TANK tanks need another tank, they have to hold the space and apply the pressure of two tanks in one, not to mention a mistake such as bad cooldown management or overextending is twice as easy to punish with just one tank i dont think blizzard will bring back 6v6 theyre in too deep in 5v5 and its sad
This is probably the best video that i’ve seen about why 5v5 sucks. Overwatch would definitely get laughed at for going back to 6v6, but I feel like it would be better for the game in the end.
Once again: Blizzard tried out 5v5 when developing Overwatch originally, and decided it didn't work as well as 6v6. 5v5 has been KNOWN as a failure since before the game even came out, but Blizzard still tried it and pushed it anyway.
Well they needed a sequel
@@BigChungus-gz9vw the sequel could have been that PVE thing they promised for years. The reson for the content drought from 2019-2022, oh wait nvm 😂
It’s because of que times. You as a community failed to play multiple roles and wanted to one trick. You have failed the game it’s all the communities fault!
@@ZarelidT Queue times became shit because the game was left unsupported for several years. Most players tuned out once it became obvious that OW1 was abandoned in favor of whatever OW2 was going to be and wanted to wait until the game was relevant again.
@@duvetboa if you don’t think it would happen again that’s where you become less believable that you know what you’re talking about. I’m rooting for the game I like 6v6 more. I was that tank in ow1 because it was a demanded role. I wouldn’t mind doing it again but I know the OW community is garbage and they get what they deserve… I have a hard time believing if anyone is genuine in this game anymore just fyi. I believe if it went to 6v6 we’d have maybe ONE good season then it would be the exact same as OW1. Remember they literally took out CP2 because players could NEVER figure out how to coordinate properly leading to many awful games. The community that couldn’t figure out how to play as a team is expected to know what they want from the game? I wouldn’t trust any of the OW community honestly
Each role having two slots was perfect.
- It really puts the pressure off you if you’re having a bad day
- gives you a partner to directly play off of and match their rhythm
- lets you fill different roles (on and off role basically)
Now tanks are just stuck being either one-note or overtuned. It’s like if a musical duo is reduced to one guy, either he can only play half the song or grow an extra pair of arms to play both and neither is a pretty option.
Also because counterswapping the tank was more difficult in 6v6 with the other tank in mind, like simply swapping to Orisa against Hog wont 100% cancel him out because the other tank in question is Zarya, or something like that.
now pretty much everyone picks the counter specifically against the tank.
The irony is that double shield actually took more skill and team coordination than most OW2 metas.
TRUE
my most controversial OW opinion is that i actually liked the double shield meta a lot, honestly some of the most fun ive had on OW. Something about it was just really fun to me and i loved how strategic it felt.
And double shield wasnt used at every level of play all the time. Metal ranks whatever they wanted. I was diamond and I had a lot of games without cancer metas in OW1.
Ow2 teached even the most casual players to counterpick enemy' tank and to blame thiers. And it killed QP with punishments, every is a sweatlord now.
@@olegdusov4273 I get people crying to me because I "counterswapped" in QP, but I suck too bad to know how to do this lol. Not my fault the game is trash...
That's not how skill works. There will always be a top x%. You get to choose what you want the top x% to be. Do you want the top 0.1% to look like double shield cringe or fast paced fun looking gameplay?
As someone who doesn't play Overwatch, your description (and the clip of) the counterpicking meta gives me the impression that 5v5 is actually a game where two teams have two supports, two DPS, and then one person from each team spends the entire match playing a really weird game of rock-paper-scissors.
@@TheFlyingslug pretty much
At this point its one rps player, 2 dps, and 2 dps lite
Accurate.
I used to defend 5v5 but after a year and change, nah we need 6v6 back.
5v5 only exists for Matchmaking purposes
I agree its universally agreed upon that 6v6 is better but a game could never survive if the queue time is 30+ minutes
@@Variouswiggthe game was only like that because blizz abandoned ow1 for like 2 years
@@Variouswigg queue times will also get awful when tank players start leaving the game
@@calus_bath_water3 🤭
@@Variouswiggthey just have to make more cute tanks like dva. Noone wants to play as ball or hog or even winton. Make the role appealing with new characters
I swear everyone who played ow1 wants 6vs6 back and everyone who joined in overwatch 2 doesn't know how good 6vs6 was.
Couldnt really play any comp overwatch 1 with the 6v6 q times even if I wanted to
That’s cause you’re in an echo chamber. I played 6v6.
I dont miss it, was it better? Yeah. Did it destroy the game and make it virtually impossible for anyone to get back into the game? Yeah.
I’d rather overwatch actually exist than have a 12% better experience with 6v6(it’s barely better and you guys are blinded by nostalgia)
@@carvode7428cap
I only played it a few times in 2018 and greatly regret not playing it more. Didn't even know what I was taking for granted till I played ow2
@@carvode7428what year did you play? i don’t remember super bad queue times in ow1 but they were def longer
And blizzard just made a statement saying that “tanks aren’t tanks enough”
Imagine if they played the game that are balancing
at this point, I'm not even sure if it's a conspiracy to say that blizzard has been actively trying to kill it's own game. You can't have dozens of asinine decisions one after another like this without either being immensely dense or actively malicious.
They need the dead by daylight treatment where the creator was bullied by players abusing the most broken item in his game so much that the next patch it got nerfed
The team developing this game should be locked in a room and forced to play 25 matches of public quick play on the tank role every single day so they can understand what the problem is. Kind of like what the other person said about Dead By Daylight.
@@icyatlasartworksskill issue lol
I'd like to point out that Jeff Kaplan himself said 6v6 was the sweet spot for Overwatch and that 5v5 put too much pressure on players. That it would breed toxicity as if you were having an off day or just waned to play something different, your team would hate you because you were TOO important. 6v6 allowed a player who was maybe underperforming or new to be covered by the other players on the team and not have the '[x] player sucks gg go next" effect. As soon as Jeff Kaplan left, all of this got thrown out the window. Whether it was a corporate mandate or Aaron Keller not understanding the game he was walking into (I don't know how he wouldn't, he's not exactly new to the team), they obviously didn't give a damn about what they tested before. Jeff Kaplan knew that 5v5 would not work. The team tested it. AND variations of it including 7v7 and KNEW the issues that came from it. They went foreword with it anyway. Knowing from testing it years prior that it simply wouldn't work.
Full Quote from Blizzard's Fourm from Jeff Kaplan:
The other fear around a 3-2-1 [3 DPS, 2 Support, 1 Tank] comp is the importance it places on the Tank player. In our playtesting, this has manifested itself in two notable ways. 1) Some players feel a lot of pressure to choose the “correct” tank. If there is only one tank, the team has a very strong opinion about who that tank should be. Another fear around this issue is that metas will be even more limited as players tend to take the “path of least resistance” towards their hero choices. If Reinhardt is deemed meta, do we only see Rein from now on? Are we all mad at our tank player if they play the hamster? 2) Some tank players felt a tremendous anxiety about their performance in the match. They felt like being the lone tank put a lot of pressure on them and if they died, it was a really big deal. Some of our tank/support players who would occasionally play tank stopped playing tank during 3-2-1 and only gravitated toward support because they felt intimidated to be “the main tank” and have so much focus on their play.
Yeah but have you check most video that covers why OW esport failed?
Most of them are saying "overwatch is too hard to watch and theres no spot for players who would shine like LOL stars such as faker"
THIS. THIS IS THE SOLE REASON why overwatch resort to 5v5. So the game would be better to watch. Also they are lazy to do proper fix to double shield meta
@@3takoyakisthey literally tried all overwatch 1 but 2 tanks was too oppressive. Literally 2 tanks shut out a whole role dps and further crippled have of the dps line up for a whole metta. They absolutely were correct in removing that extra tank no counter play , if you didn’t stick to the very basic rein zarya , Winston dva or worse goats metta you would lose
@@elodropper1469 ow2 meta currently is mauga winston lol. People asked to tone down debuffs and they introduced mauga which cant be taken down unless you use debuff. Making other tank experience really bad
@@3takoyakis and adding another tank to help mauga with passive regen would be an absolute nightmare to deal with. Because that make healers more heal bot type plays styles , half of the dps line up would be useless and tanks would dominate yet again.
I'm stealing this and using it against YourOverwatch; latest vid he claims Jeff wanted single tank
Tanks need to be more tanky - Blizzard 2024. Meanwhile, a speed boosted Mauga running arnd the map presses one button. And his entire team becomes unkillable 😂
Mauga is shit
@@Dish.Washer Mauga is the most played tank in champ high gm lobbies
@@Dish.Washerhe’s the most broken hero in the game
@@deus2243 he is just a shit mauga lmao
@@deus2243 oh ok I'm just parroting mr lhcloudy i don't actually know if he is or isn't :)
As for the double shield point, we aren’t advocating for Overwatch 1, we are advocating for 6v6. They need to understand that. (Also bring back the pretty UI stuff we had in ow1 like boarders lol)
With their claim of game would be frequently balanced, double shield shouldnt be a problem
The 5v5 versus 6v6 issue is same thing as vainglory try to follow 5 lane formula instead of their usual 3 lane
The results were devastating. The heroes are never being made for 5 lane and hype died after several months
@@3takoyakis never thought i'd see vainglory get mentioned in 2024. it was just item powercreep, namely the support items that were too impactful in a 5v5 setting.
Unlike 3v3, the 5s meta favored using more than 1 Support/Tank heroes, and so the meta eventually consisted of 3 Supports, and 2 DPS, resulting in longer stretched out fights and who could better manage their support items.
But ultimately, they just made too many poor business decisions and couldn't profit was the reason it died
@@mochi.20 i missed vainglory every day
poor business decision from beginning yeah. Also scammy practices draining people opal near 5v5 release
they also decided to copy MLBB since it is deemed to be the successful business model.
the worst thing is they even copy the goddamn UI
The crazy thing is that they absolutely destroyed shields at the same time as taking away one tank. Sigma, Rein and Orisa were the main offender in double shield, now Orisa has no shield and Reinhardt is borderline useless
Im advocating for Ow1 but thats just me lol
Been playing Overwatch since day 1, and I believe changing 6v6 to 5v5 was probably the worst change ever made in this game
Not probably, it just was
i was critiquing it too, its bad
why?
@nicoperez9984 entire game system was made for 6v6 and they didn't really compensate for when they made it 5v5, its like taking a whole position out of a sport , like shooting guards out of basketball
5v5 was a bigger mistake than adding brig to the game.
They can't spend 10+ years on a 6v6 game and then flush everything down the toilet and make it 5v5. We will just have to sit through every attempt at a solution until they finally realise 5v5 is flawed format.
With MASSIVE release of hero shooter this year and 2025
Overwatch Dev finally would get humbled
@@3takoyakis I m really waiting for this Marvel game, it looks like overwatch but fun
you are all nostalgia-fueled cope machines, have a nice day, you understand nothing
I remember when ow2 was coming out. Not only is 5v5 completely ass. But we waited 2-3 years for a single update in ow1 just to get railed with an awful meta for the rest of the game. Pve was promised and cancelled. 5v5 was a failure and the continued for 2 years to fix it… it’s still not working. At least in 6v6 the game was enjoyable. Yes it wasn’t perfect. But I would much rather shoot 2 shields all day long then play a game where I can’t play a character because a silver player can compete with a GM player simply cuz of a hero pick.
And at least double shield was fixable. The issues with 5v5 are almost always an inate problem with the format.
"silver player can compete with a GM player simply cuz of a hero pick" no he can't he get aim dif
@@axelt6312a silver tank could prob beat a master tank if they counter swap them, that’s how bad the balance is
@@emma6648 in silver i managed to one vs one tank even mauga with Bad aim as Brigitte because they struggle in close fight, si i highly doubt your claim
@@axelt6312 Genuine question. Your point?
5v5 caused me to fully quit the game. Uninstalled 6 months ago, haven't touched it since. I am an OG player, played since November 2016. I won't even consider playing the game again unless the format goes back to 6v6.
Same, i was an advocate for remaining 6v6 from the moment 5v5 was mentioned, even when it released i was still willing to try it even though i wasnt a huge fan. It just wasnt the same game anymore and not for the better. 6v6 would be enticing i must admit but i personally just think the first game, even in its final years, was massively superior to whatever the game has become now.
Now i only play mystery heroes for fun (playing dice is still more fun than playing rock paper scissors) or open queue to play a specific character or mess around with whacky comps
Playing tank on role queue im 5v5 sucks all the fun out of the game
i at this point am reaching the same point i only minorly play it when i have nothing else to do
If support was the odd man role, every support would be made into Kiriko and Baptiste.
NO MORE DPS-HEAVY SUPPORTS PLEASE.
@@GummyDinosaursify I agree. I'm making a point.
Meanwhile Illari being the most broken support oat
I love baptiste. His burst is amazing and is easy to micro-manage.
@@luaspy of course, he presses 1 button for more healing and another button that stops you from dying 💀
The analogy with what happens with only 1 support is perfect
Imagine being a Doom you had to play 4D chess to get some viability out of your character and you managed to win the first team fight against a Dva and now the unkillabe horse and her band of merry CCers come marching along to destroy your chance of having a good time
“Her band of merry CCers”
Lmfaoooo
Honestly one of the reasons why I flex to JQ. THEY UNIRONICALLY NERFED ORISA, THOUGHT SHE WAS DOING TERRIBLE (she wasn’t) AND COMPENSATION BUFFED HER COOLDOWNS? CRAZY
I swear there’s gonna be a sombra whenever someone wins as doom.
I mean.. is Doomfist not an absolute CC machine himself? It's OK for you to pinball squishies into walls and out the map but the moment they want to push back you complain about it? I get that being bombarded with CC as Doom is not fun but neither is being on the receiving end of his punches.
@@Kurppalumppu right now even if you get value out of block the punch does less stun time/knockback than what a Orisa Javelin can do. Not to mention her damage isn’t locked behind jumping into a crowd of people with her non existent damage falloff and fortify (which got rebuffed btw). Orisa javelin is literally doom’s only source of “hard cc” and it’s much much safer because you aren’t)t attached to it and fortify makes you immune to headshot and CC. THAT’S the difference.
Remember Blizzard said they wanted to get rid of counter picking but made it worst?
then they later claimed that their philosophy changed and wanted counter picking to be a core mechanic in the game and now recently went back on that statement saying they want to try to make counter picking less effective. They can't decide what they want the game to be.
They also said that supports can attack as well but instead they were focused on healbotting. The sec supports go dmg mode the tank would just fall apart. It's even worst in S9.
The fact anyone believes them anything anymore is baffling to me. After all the lies, tricks and lawsuits why do people still think blizzard cares for the game except how much money they can milk with skins and battle passes? At this point, if Blizzard told me the sky is blue, I still would look out the window just to make sure.
I may be misremembering but didn't they also say at one point they wanted to get rid of cc's and now there is even more now and there more powerful
I am addicted to watching people bash 5v5. Might be crazy but they could just release a playlist with 6v6 that has the nerfed tanks from mystery and ffa and they would have the data they need. They would instantly know what tanks would need tweaks and how popular 6v6 would be compared to 5v5. We could be in the loud minority here.
ive been saying this since like season 2 - its so obvious - they don't want to do it because I think they know the answer
Unfortunately this makes sense. Blizzard does not deal in "sense" in any way shape or form.
I swear to God if they added 6v6 to arcade, nobody would play anything else lmao
congrats bc I think blizzard just said theyre going to try something similar
They’re doing it! Hopefully we get conclusive data from it. I can’t see 6v6 coming back at all
Make tank unfun to play with 5v5 -> people stop playing tank -> “we must keep 5v5 because few people play tank”
Superb. Just superb. Solving a problem they created, stonks.
fun isnt objective. i find playing tank fun
@@VerminSupremeFanPage wonderful, but this is clearly not the most common sentiment.
I love tanks in every single game I play. Overwatch is just unfun to play a tank in because of the format. To remedy, I would play a gamemode they had where you could pick as many of them as you want, and it was way more fun for me
@@geoDB. Same. I play the tank role in every other game, but find OW2 tank incredibly unfun.
Something you didn't touch on when you were talking about Double Shield
the most heinous examples of old Double Shield were Sigma + Orisa
Because those characters could just, throw down their shield, and still operate fully
But now Orisa has no shield. so she's out of that equation
You have Rein: But if Rein is holding up his shield, he is unable to do anything else, he has to choose between shielding, and swinging / fire striking etc
Ramattra also has a shield, but his shield only lasts for 4 seconds, and he cannot access the shield in his Nemesis form
So yeah I don't think Double shield would be nearly as much of an issue as some make out to be
Double shield was mainly due to the Support AOE heals bap and brig
Brig kept dive from playing and double shield prevented poke
@@lystal3425bingo 👍
@@lystal3425true, but it’s still crazy blizzard would rather rework the game than one or two characters
Ppl keep bringing up orisa sigma as if orisa hasnt been changed
The orisa rework would end double shield in 6v6
But ofc they had to roll 5v5
Hell, even if they didn't rework Orisa, Junker Queen's Rampage and her axe makes her a direct counter to Double Shield because both abilities ignore shields, Brig and Bap don't have a counter to her forced anti save for Field (and you can break that), and the only thing you would have to bait out is Sigma Rock. Reinhardt/JQ as a duo (or even JQ/Winton) would kill Double Shield.
7:10 is quite literally the opposite of what OW stands for.
"Never accept the world as it appears to be, dare to see it for what it could be." -Dr. Harold Winston
Winston also said overwatch has returned and yet PVE is cancelled
Winston kinda a hypocrite sometimes
Also the dev that said this has it backwards. 5v5 isnt due the lack of tanks, the lack of tanks is due to 5v5
Also one of the last things Jeff said before leaving Blizzard
Tank in 6v6 had an identity. The supportive yet high damaging target which the enemy couldn't ignore due to their ability to peel for higher value targets.
In 5v5 the only goal for tank is to sit and soak damage and hope they don't die. Balancing this is a nightmare that never ends.
There are only 2 ways they can somehow fix this:
1. Make it 6v6(has it's own problems, but manageable)
2. Make it so every tank has no weakness whatsoever and make the skill floor low and skill ceiling slightly higher.
Overwatch 2 tries to take the second path. And it ruins the identity of the tanks.
If ow goes back to 6v6 how can blizzard fix the queue times
@@Variouswigg queue times aren't great now anyway. If we went to 6v6 I guarantee a lot of old players and current players might wanna play tank. Personally I only play support currently. If we went back to 6v6 I might actually feel like I can play wrecking Ball again.
@@Variouswigg Unfortunately, Queue times are the main reason why they don't go back to 6v6. This would be a major issue for dps players spesifically, but if the game stays free then a lot more people will have access to the game and queue times might be around the same. If only 1-2 minutes longer
@@Variouswigg Remove role queue and let players form their own comps
I think one can work if they separate the tank role into point tank and off tank
Going back to that "5v5, solo support" example, and how supports would need to be giga-buffed since no one can cover their weaknesses.
I feel like Kiriko would be even more meta without any changes (Despite already being meta in "5v5, solo tank" for an exhausting and boring 11 seasons straight), because Kiriko can do everything and doesn't have any real weaknesses. (Kind of like Sigma in OW1)
In retrospect, she's being balanced as if there isn't another support, which is just weird.
Another obvious example is Bap, who has noticeably less weaknesses than other support heroes (Even before OW2). Bap (alongside Brig) is the entire reason why OW1 became so bad with double shield. But, of course, even to this day, Blizzard would rather change literally everything about the game instead of nerf a support hero.
Brig too strong? Role Queue
Brig still too strong and Bap too? Move to 5v5
Too much healing? Season 9 role passive changes
It's crazy that you released this BEFORE Blizzard did yet another gigabuff tank patch by buffing armor, buffing tank passive, and buffing literally every tank at least 1 way (most more than one). Unreal.
Sigma speaking as Blizzard: "Why Seek answers when we don't know the question?"
What most keep forgetting is there are two supports and two dps. Two. Again. Two. Even if a character or class is objectively "bad" having a second person being able to do some of the responsibilities your class can do, really really makes a huge difference. Sometimes it's not about eliminating or numbers. Sometimes it's about time and how much focus a team puts in one direction or goal. Or more importantly, lack there of.
There was a post that explaining why 5v5 games is so toxic yet more players equal fun (WOW and such)
Because less pressure on each players. If someone fucked up, the others would cover. But nowadays gaming are moving towards 5V5 and shitsports. Why? Because its better to watch for marketability.
When you watching sports, you either know the entire group or some star players. They push it to the extreme for esport. Which is not something overwatch should follow.
But all advice towards successfull esports are always "you must make a system where an individual shine to the fullest to maximaze hype generated"
Watching someone pulled off team kill alone? SO HYPE
But is it fun to play and grind to reach that kind of level? Ofc not
Then again riot 500$ LOL faker bundle exist because of this flawed esport system
(Riot have an ENTIRE department for toxicity and yet they cant figure this out)
@@3takoyakistoxicity is an unsolvable issue, the only way to reduce it is to take away the players communication tools, but that would only end in frustration and more creative types of toxicity
That dog yapping bit is so insulting. If i played overwatch, that alone would make me quit.
6v6 is better I WASNT EVEN THERE AND I AGREE. i seen ow1 games then ow2 games they like night and day. 6v6 looks more fun. mins the double shields and goat meta
Love that even people who didn’t play 6v6 see the truth
owl didn't work because 6v6 is too busy visually.
@@he.5865 remove duuble sheilds then it works
@@lytepk This doesn't make any sense. They are obviously biased towards a game they haven't played because of getting videos like yours in their recommendations. You don't find people blindly following your ideas concerning at all?
@@KBReal870 Yeah this is the problem with a lot of people who demand 6v6 back from emotionally charged reasons. They will accept anyone circle-jerking the notion of 6v6 even those whose opinions are completely irrelevant.
5v5 is the format that we LITERALLY DID NOT ASK FOR. Like what? As one of the comments said, pros tested it, said it was terrible, and begged to not implement. Back in 6v6, sustain has been a big issue since we had aoe healers: Bap and Brig. When combining these two, aoe healings can reach the level of single target healing which is an unhealthy balance. Which is why we had comps like goats and double shield.
And about counterpicking in the tank role. In OW2, it's necessary because tanks have so much stats due to being solo tanks. In my tank games, if I don't get hard countered, I can take over lobbies because it's really hard for the dps and supports to deal with me. But as soon as they swap to hard counter me, it goes in a complete 180. There is no in between: it's either you take over lobbies or just straight up don't have fun. And a lot of times, I experience the second part to the point where I straight up don't want to play that role anymore.
We didn't ask for OW2 nor for the ability to play OW1 to be taken away from us either
100% agreed. It's so rough man. Ive been actually playing ow2 quite a bit especially after season 9 changes.
But as someone who has reached pot 500/gm on every roll in the first game more than one time, it just doesn't feel anywhere near as thought-provoking or like you have as much agency, especially in the tank role.
Counter swapping being such a lucrative strategy in all roles really is one of the things that kills my vibe
So based
2:20 that clip is hilarious
i fully agree with everything you said, its truly sad about how 5v5 defenders will ignore the fact that 5v5 has gotten way more love then 6v6 ever did, if the devs we have today worked on 6v6 it would actually have gotten the problems with double shield fixed and it would feel infinitely better than 5v5
I only started the game with the kpop collab after years on the "to try" list and they clearly do, the game was left to the side for 2 years in 6 vs 6 and in 5 vs 5 we get free game, frequent update and content, like they just woke up someday and decided to not let the game die
@axelt6312 well no, they promised they would deliver better content to PVP since PVE is dead but
The contents we get aka skins quality are getting worse. More recolor are being made. Less content in battlepass and less customization for mythic skin itself.
We get less events than usual, we get 2 and even 1 per season instead of 3. We DONT get advertises for new event such as new maps and new mode clash. THERES NO RATE UP ON NEW MAP OR NEW MODE. WTF BLIZZARD.
And they keep pushing hero mastery that no one wants. Its not hero mastery, its hero map memorizing to get high score. We want tutorials, not ninja warrior like mode
Community make a hero mastery better than overwatch Dev.
Most of the devs straight up left, these devs are completely new.
@@axelt6312yeah bud you’ve been here for like less than a year of course you don’t find any problems with 5v5 or the fact the game was left stale for three years because of a broken promise
@@arbre_mystique Still see that i fucking explode when i dare showing my head around a corner for a second when i play tank
The issue is that the balancing team refuses to acknowledge they have no idea what they're doing, causing them to make more and more stupid format changes
Randomly had this recommended to me, usually don’t click on channels that I’ve never heard of that have low numbers but I’m so glad I watched this video. You got a new sub man this video was great
Thank you brother more to come soon 💪
@@lytepk I got notifications on man I’m waiting!
Couldn't agree more with this video. I never even played the first game, I never experienced OW in its peak, but I DEMAND 6v6 come back. It's actually stupid to have just the one. The game plays worse and has suffered dearly for it. And I don't even really like OW, never have. I play OW2 because I had friends who play it, so I play it. Even if I don't like it, OW2 is free and it's something else to do with my friends. And I can see the glaring flaws of removing one of the tanks. The game is fundamentally built around a 6v6 environment, and Blizzard have ruined it. Good video.
You know it's bad when people that have never played the first game start demanding 6v6
If you have first hand experience you can't talk lmao. You're just regurgitating shit you've told
@@orenjimintoyep, thats my case. Quite often i thought it would be nice to have another tank while playing
@@orenjiminto People that never played the first game should stfu. Making an opinion with no knowledge is just wrong in every possible way.
Best part is: we change to 5v5 so double shield is not a problem anymore" ... "And rework Oriss so she doesn't have a shield" ..... But than why go to 5v5 than? LUL
Great video but who's the bodybuilder at 13:31 ?
I quit overwatch because of that, and im sure there are many more like me, many.
What would it take for blizzard to be willing to swallow their pride and go back to 6v6? Atp all their dumb changes have accumulated and in order to return they would have to have the players best interest in mind😂
I feel like at this point if the game collapses, q times go over an hour, people will just leave, Microsoft will abandon the game and shut down the servers. There's no reason for the "2" in the Overwatch 2 to exist aside from 5v5 format.
They never will. That's the very unfortunate thing about Blizzard
You think a for profit company cares about "pride"? You'd have to be rtded. THEY DISAGREE WITH YOU.
THEY THINK 5v5 IS BETTER.
Oh they will
Have you check MARVEL RIVALS?
They make their game 6v6
Months after that, Aaron said they discussing to put back 6v6
This accompanied by DOZENS of hero shooter game release in 2024 - 2025. Like, seriously for no reason, companies are reviving hero shooter genre
Overwatch must do something drastic to keep their player base. They even have transformers collab in Marvel rivals launch soon
@@he.5865
"You think a for profit company cares about pride?"
This is Blizzard we're talking about. Their pride coming back to bite them in the ass has happened repeatedly at this point.
"Do you all not have phones?!" When Diablo Immoral was announced.
"You don't want that. You think you do, but you don't." When asked about bringing back old WoW servers by a majority of their audience at Blizzcon (prior to making Classic WoW, and they only really did that because a noticeable chunk of the playerbase left after they took down the Homebrew vanilla expansion servers).
Blizzard might be for-profit and as greedy as a company could be, but they're not desperate.
I’m ngl I didn’t care for going back to 6v6, but your video has swayed me, not that I hate overwatch 2 or anything, I actually love overwatch 2 but the counterpick stuff was all I needed
Keep up the good content 🔥
@@olihemming2299 another soldier to the ranks 💪
Good video, I used to have fun playing tank back in OW1 but in OW2 its just horribly boring. Can't play what I want I have to counter swap constantly it's just ridiculous.
Marvel rivals save us 🙏🏻
@@lytepkHere's hoping
Also, what people say about que times in 6v6 is a myth. The hero distribution was horrendous. You cant have double the amount of dps heroes than both tank and support combined, and expect there not to be more dps players. Its not the entire reason or cause behind favored roles, but a significant one.
The game was also pay walled and abandoned while many other popular f2p titles existed.
yeah well, there is still 20 fkg dps against 10 poor tanks and even less supps today, and dps is .... *surprise* still the most favored class since they have 20 heroes choices on contrary on the others...
The fact that they keep releasing dps while the 2 others classes have so few choices is amazing but, it's Blizzard
If this was true tank/support would have about equal hero queue times, which just isn’t true. Tank had a 3-4x smaller playerbase
@@thegipper1215 it was true. The que time chart of ow1 revealed that the average difference between tank and support was just 1 minute.
Huge misconception literally everyone has for some reason, that people didnt want to play tank specifically. The devs literal reciepts show it was just a minute lower than the 2nd least popular, with dps being a huge outlier.
I was a GM tank player in OW1. I didn't touch OW2 for a bit because it was clearly an unfinished game, but I came back to play comp around S4 of OW2 and I quit again right after my first few games. My first experience was playing against a player who was terrible and would constantly counterswap after every fight to find value against me. Even before anyone in the community started talking about the issue of counterswapping, I noticed how bad it was, and it made me quit. It's just not fun playing against a worse player who gets more value because they constantly swap to counter your kit. I'm glad people finally caught onto the issue though. I came back last season for a few more games and the same issue still exists, so I stopped playing again, but I noticed something else too that bothered me. Another thing that makes this game suck outside of counterswapping is how hard it is to punish garbage players because tanks have overloaded kits since they need to function in this format. You used to be able to Sigma rock a vaping Roadhog to secure a kill, now he just gets back up and vapes again. Just no skill expression in this game. It's been balanced and re-designed for the dumbest, low-skill players on tank. Such a shame, but don't see it changing without everyone in the dev team being fired and replaced. It's been 2 years, there's just no excuse anymore.
I think the issue goes back further than the 5v5/6v6 debate, the real point at which this game started getting worse was when they added role restrictions. Having no restrictions was good for casual players because they could play what they wanted to without someone being forced to play something they didn't, and good for competitive players because the most balanced teams were still 2-2-2 splits between all the roles, but you could get more creative and make some awesome plays by losing one to gain another. Role restrictions really weren't an issue competitively until GOATS was the meta, and that is entirely because tanks were too powerful with Brig. Instead of fixing that, which would've been the responsible choice, they gave up and limited how many tanks you could have on your team, allowing one role to be more powerful than the others. Since then, this has continued to be the case, and it's still going to be a problem as long as they keep abusing role queue to avoid balancing their game properly. Supports are notoriously way stronger now than they were in ow1, for example. Even when 6v6 comes back there's going to be no incentive to fix that, because both teams have them, even if they are not fun to play against as other roles.
another chad take that is
Fuck 5v5
Watching this video after they just doubled armor's damage reduction, halved the damage role passive, and gave mauga 100% life steal 😭😭
What
Problem is Blizzard is way too simple-minded to think of real solutions to problems. Torb has no skill expression and is unviable past metal ranks? Homogenize him so his turrets do almost nothing and his power is counterintuitively is all in Torb himself rather than the turret (though his rework does have some good ideas they should've further built upon, like how his turret prioritizes enemies Torb shot.) GOATS? Role queue. Stuns, knockbacks, and slows everywhere? Just tune the numbers! That's enough to make it feel not as bad, right? RIGHT? And now double shield. Just remove a tank! Not only does that *technically* solve the double shield meta, it also homogenizes our game even further for the viewers and standardizes teamsizes to that of other games like League, Paladins, DOTA and whatnot! It MUST be the answer!
God I feel bad for anyone still into OW.
League kinda has the 5s issue where there is a long lane that is 1v1 and you kinda need to get a good matchup or else you are just playing survive for atleast half the game, some times the entire game as you can't get to mid game as your team has just failed the early so hard. Think overwatch but 15 minutes of 1v1 tank where the enemy counterswapped you and neither can change picks, but then your team failed to 4v4 push the cart past the first checkpoint so they vote to end the match, and there is nothing you can do about it
Big streamers were heralding 5v5 as the best thing ever. Shit was so annoying. They were paid to tell us we were wrong and we’re just lowly plat players if we disagree
And yes, this included Flats.
Let me cook guys..
0v0 🔥🔥🔥 only way to save the game 🗣️🗣️ 🔥
Thoughts, did I cook??
I dropped Overwatch the moment they nerfed Genji's mobility a couple of years into the game. I could live with the devs removing 2 seconds off of my ultimate, but the mobility nerfs ruined the character for me. It was at that moment I realised that they had no idea how to balance the game without ruining fun mechanics like triple jump on walls and being able to throw yourself high up in the air if you mastered the ability to dash to ledges in a very specific angle and distance.
Stuff like that added extra dimensions to gameplay for those who wanted to master the game, but instead Blizzard patched that out. Haven't touched OW 2 more than a few games at launch so I did not see the full ramifications of 5v5, but it doesn't look like Blizzard learned a darn thing in the last 8 years of having incredibly poor, infrequent, and nonsensical balance patches which ruined the base game for many going all the way into Overwatch 2.
Absolutely pathetic.
Like how the fuck does a company make fun of their customers as dogs yapping
@@freshamero3834 just so unreal right
@lytepk IT IS!! I am a long-time player, but this game is not what it used to be. The company that made it has gone mad..
@@freshamero3834 marvel rivals soon my friend gonna make a video about the two as well soon
@lytepk Looking forward, brother
The funniest part about that "We gotta represent the playerbase as it is, not as we want it to be" is LITERALLY the opposite of what Winston's father said. THEY'RE LITERALLY SO DUMB THAT THEY CAN'T SEE THEY ARE THE EXACT PEOPLE THE PHRASE "Don't accept the world as it is, dare to see it for what it could be" NEEDS TO BE SAID TO, AND THEY INVENTED IT.
Blizzard is really in their element when it comes to ruining their games for no damn reason
Dude the dog clip is just like when 343 acknowledged the fanbases complaints surrounding halo 5 abilities and sprinting and straight up saying "shut up the adults are talking"
This is just like every other industry and politics these days. Everyone is like “HEY CAN YOU ALL STOP BEING DUMB SHITS AND JUST DO THE THING?” And they go “nah, fk you, but still give us money.” Life is kind of miserable these days.
The simple fact that these debates have been going SINCE 5V5 WAS ANNOUNCED means that it never worked. If it did, very few would complain about it. I admit I liked it initially since the game felt way faster overall, but atp I'm begging they go back to 6v6
I started playing this game when i was 15 im 22 btw, and i dont think a single person ever EVER thought that making the game 5v5 would fix anything, the fact that the dev team still did it after the pros said it was an awful idea and shouldnt be a thing, just shows how oblivious they are with this game
Especially with their track record. They make a bad hero, they can’t balance the game properly, then they change the game to disable a particular meta. Case in point: the creation of brig, inability to balance her, 2-2-2 added to remove goats. Same old playbook. It was never going to end well. It was always a sht idea
I had not seen that yapping dog vid, and it was indeed infuriating. great points, great video. subbed
Honestly tanks should just sit in spawn while the rest of the team fights. It’s more fun than actually playing the role.
6v6 seems so fun wish I got to play
Overwatch is over.
Former OW2 top13 playrr here. took me since ow1 s9. Breaks my fking heart what they did to this game. Destroy everyones mains. Replace gammodes w crap. Add stupid creeping balance, painted themselves in corner. Hotbox changes. No one communicates anymore. No one even studies team comps or positioning or ult combos. Just awful game. No idea how people continue to play this garbage. No OWL and nothing even to be seen at the top. You get to top, same throwers cheaters amd griefers. No money. No pride. Just toxic players wasted time. Ridiculously unhealthy.
Very Very good points my man
w sprixyy
I left with 5v5 and will return with 6v6...
People say counter picking takes skill because it requires knowledge how to counter pick. I say “Wow I love a character that can completely deny me regardless of how good they are.”
It does take some skill, now though, this applies more to ARTS than overwatch which is an FPS hybrid
I don’t care if you’re an OWL player or whatever, this video was insanely based. I loved overwatch 1 but have barely touched 2
its nice to see a group of people that hate 5v5 as much as i do
dude i dont even know why lower rank players cope either. im gold-plat and the game has the exact same issues that drive me nuts.
edit: even as a dps main it feels awful. tanks, sustain and denial abilities are so strong that if i want to make sure i have the potential to win i HAVE to counterswap. I want to be able to play tracer or genji and have the potential to win, but you literally cant if you arent 5 times better than the entire lobby
Blizzard should skip 6v6 and just do 7v7
What about implementing 7v7? No one ever discusses that.
🤣 true evil
that would kill the game immidietly
Imagine having a potential buddy covering your back as a tank, some of my friendships from ow are great tank players that I used to play with and it was fun as hell, they went for the easy route and deleted 1 player of the most dynamic roles of the 6v6
6v6 seemed more casual and fun to me
I MEAN atp just replace 4v4 team death match into 5v5. And make role queue and open queue 6v6. Revert a lot of changes back to OW1 like health pools, take off role passives, etc etc. If they're worried about queue times, dont even fret because the game is f2p and now has wider audience and even newer players who would gladly try out 6v6.
You make good points but what was I supposed to do in ranked when I get a roadhog one trick on my team on Gibraltar or numbani which means as Winston I get no help
and what is a zenyatta supposed to do when he's with a lucio one trick ? what is a pharah supposed to do when she's with a torb one trick ?
i love the fact that everyone who says 5v5 is 'better' than 6v6 only bring up double shield
Thats very funny considering the comment above yours from @shadowplayfx is complaining about exactly that LOL
"5v5 was a mistake"
"Pfft, Overwatch 2 was a mistake"
bout time you got involved
at this point blizzard just doesn't want to admit they made a mistake.
It’s so exhausting playing a tank that you want to play and enjoy when 90% of the games is me vs 3-4 counters. Blizzard clearly understands that 5v5 was a bad idea, but needed a big change due to PVE not coming out.
the *big change* being an overpriced shop and a shty battle pass hahaha
the double shield clip unironically looked more exciting than ow2
I've never played 6v6 in ow1, I started early ow2. When supports were Op like season 4 through 7 I was sick and tired of the game as a tank player and the content my favorite creators (Flats, emongg) were posting was depressing to watch. So I decided to watch some of Flats' Ow1 content and it was night and day difference. Flats was full of passion and joy for grinding rank. Even when playing double sheild he and emongg were having a blast together which showed me 5v5 is literal trash when they can be playing a terrible meta and yet still have fun.
Me along with all my friends quit after they changed to 5v5. We are casuals but the teamwork required for 6v6 was way way way more fun than 5v5. The tanks had to have synergy and communicate along with the supports deciding which of them heal the tanks along with the dps discussing how to deal with the 2 tanks. Now its just one fat tank infront which makes the dynamic break apart. Both from a teamplay aspect and from a gameplay aspect. If that tank is poorly positioned and/or he dies, there is no room for the structural lineup to stay intact.
6 V 6 ad open queue as default was better than what we got. rip ow 1 before it got the "Esports whacky crazy cool competition!!" downgrades
THIS, THIS is some QUALITY OW content that I've seen in a while.
Overwatch has been built around 6 players per team. Take one away, and the field turns into anarchy.
5v5 has never been good. Literally ever. I knew that from the moment I played in the OW2 beta and the teamfights were over the second the tank went down. From there I already saw the natural cascade of balancing so that heals would be buffed in order to give tanks more uptime (they were), then tanks would be unkillable and heals would focus the tank, leaving DPS without heals and thus forcing them to implement a self-heal passive (they did), and now they're getting around to realizing that for the role they play, the tanks are still too dependent on their teammates to stay alive and carry, so tank buffs inbound (well would you look at that....)
It's never worked, and it astounds me that anyone defends it this deep into the experiment being an undeniable failure. This is like a medical treatment with a 100% mortality rate: stop killing people, it's not working, cease and desist and go back to what was keeping people alive before. The survival rate might only be 50%, but that's better than 0%.
I remember when people played videogames to have fun
My teammates call me an inbred troglodyte when I do not pick Mauga and I cannot play the hamster anymore. 0/10 they gave Mauga 100% lifesteal
Twomad died playing this dookie game, I’m glad I quit
5v5? 6v6? LMFAO 12v12 is where it's at
As a former off tank main, thank you for your service. The game died when they thought giving road hog an extra hundred health would make up for the fact that there isn’t a second tank out there.
I used to really like Jake, he was a good player and fun to watch in the World Cup but him and so many other content creators are such blizzard boot lickers genuinely so sad to see what he’s become, and the worst part is that in that clip he knows there’s less tank players not because they stopped playing but because most OW1 tank players don’t like the 5v5 solo tank style he knows that but he’s riding Blizzard’s tip so hard he just lies about it
Guys this isn't a game anymore, it's just a battle pass + shop simulator with a bunch of new 18 yo female characters to sell cosmetics
Played 6v6 in custom games today and got depressed how much fun i had.
Its not even up for debate imo. 6v6 is superior on every way.
I dont have the 6v6 code but it was also balanced for 6v6 as well. Thought id hate it but they did very well.
At the very least I want 6v6 in open queue.
5v5 is trash and a mistake. Drop this worthless waste of a product and go to Marvel Rivals on December 6th
I honestly believe 5v5 is worse than double shield
blizzard thinks tanks need to be tankier
NO THEY DONT NOBODY LIKES AN UNKILLABLE TANK
tanks need another tank, they have to hold the space and apply the pressure of two tanks in one, not to mention a mistake such as bad cooldown management or overextending is twice as easy to punish with just one tank
i dont think blizzard will bring back 6v6 theyre in too deep in 5v5 and its sad
We want 6v6!!
This is probably the best video that i’ve seen about why 5v5 sucks. Overwatch would definitely get laughed at for going back to 6v6, but I feel like it would be better for the game in the end.