check out my other channel www.youtube.com/@cheapwatchman_official Enter to Win free hifi! subscribe, like, follow me instagram.com/cheapaudioman and fill out this form forms.gle/w6qbPKGPFGUKiasX9 Intro graphics by johnvilardi.com Support the Channel! Shop on Amazon amzn.to/3W8vsgK Crutchfield shop-links.co/cguPK8XEGmt Join the best hifi community out there! patreon.com/cheapaudioman TRY ROON roonlabs.com/r/RTmYWdCP9kitqouBa5pcIw Tidal Deal bit.ly/3siuqSF Amazon Unlimited Music Trial amzn.to/3DRAVj9 Crutchfield shop-links.co/cguPK8XEGmt Best Buy Deals shop-links.co/cf9yDZeYtUH amzn.to/3GkNaop CAM Store (New Products!) bit.ly/30Lgu4K apos.audio?sca_ref=552340.TY98BPcZ6P massdrop.7eer.net/qnOye5
Just in case somebody looking for a pure streamer like me stumbles upon this. IT here. You are right and it is even worse: In the digital realm there is NO difference. A streamers fetches digtial data from a digital source (Internet service or your own drive) and distributes it to a DAC which again transforms it into a audio signal. _This digital chain up to the DAC makes no difference as long it is 24 bit/92 Khz (or 16/48) in and the same amount of bits out. It cannot be more and if it is less the device is broken or faulty._ It is like a USB cable. You can proof or shield a digital cable against influences, so the digital stream is 100% provided. But you cannot make it better. But, see, each bit is being send several times, also checksums are being used, and these protocols make sure within miliseconds the data stream is correct and it is with ALL devices THE SAME if they are not completely crap. So there might be a low end side with crap from Alibaba but there is NO HIGH END side concerning the digital stream. So no reason to invest too much except for features you need. Like search, App steering, interfaces, size, design etc. But of cause sometimes DACs and preamps are being integrated in a streamer, so just another device in the chain with its own possibility of individual distortion (or character) AFTER the digital stream gets transformed into an anlogue signal and this is - another chance to make money. So if you already got your DAC an Amp, just look for something that streams. And you can choose your music comfortably with it.
Law of Diminishing will apply to anything. I'm close to retirement so have to slow or cease in buying new stuff. Lucky I was able to purchase mid grade equipment and don't have excellent hearing anyway so I'm happy.
I agree, I wanted the look and function of the Hifi Rose streamer and then found out about the EverSolo DMP-A6 for less than half of its price. I bought one and then paired it with a Gustard R26 R2R Dac and absolutely love the combination for less! Fixed income sux, but I am quite pleased with my system now and have my end game ❤
@@mikelanier5617 . I may be wrong, but the r26 has a streamer built in...why would you buy a ever solo? I use roon and I think the r26 is roon compatible.
Ive been basically tweaking the same components for over two years and have achieved an amazing sound with the help of this and other channels. Ill share some of them now. Thanks Randy. This is one of a few systems that is mainly my "digital" setup. 1. Experiment with speaker placement: away from the walls, roughly 6' apart, towed in 2. Do your best to have no signal or power cables touching (bonus if you raise your speaker cables off the ground.) 3. Isolate everything if you can, even your amp (sub on washing machine pucks, cd player on pucks, amp on pucks etc.). 4. Get rid of your power conditioner and stick to the wall (amp/sub/dac) unless absolutely necessary. 5. If using a vintage amp, pick a sub with both high and low inputs so your speakers connect to your sub so that way your speakers handle only the highs/mids. 6. Place something heavy on top of your CD player. Trust me, this helps (this along with the washing machine pucks helps keep it as stable as possible.) 7. You dont need to go wild with cables. Stick to pro audio cables, as they offer the best sound for the lowest price (I use Japanese Oyaide cables, which are the standard for most DJ's in the scene). 8. Geshelli Labs JNOG2 (J2) - nuff said. 9. I use a laptop to stream (i7/12gbs ram). This is my preferred method of streaming, but it takes a massive amount of work to get it to sound its best. I will offer some of the many tweaks it takes to get it to sound its best: a) Strip the laptop to its most bare bones, have nothing installed except what you use for music. b) Install fidelizer (this will shut down most background processing, and keep only music programs running). c) Install Equalizer APO (this will allow you to have a "preamp" which will improve the sound of your dac, by allowing you to set a -4db to your sound. It will also help with the issues Windows does to your sound). You need to shut off exclusive mode, but trust me it will sound good. d) Numerous tweaks to your power settings located in your power management settings (USB settings to never shut off, processer to maximum settings, etc.) There are tons more, but youll need to experiment. When all are implemented, your sound will improve - guaranteed.
Gotta love Randy. His output is almost non-stop and he tells it like it is. Presents in a style that all can comprehend and retains a sense of humour. Keep it coming, buddy.
For those who would like to actually know, yes they are all different. RUclips, Alpha Audio, Live Multitest - affordable (1000 Euro) streamers - Part Two!. You only need reasonably good headphones to listen and be able to hear the difference in sound form all of Alpha Audio live streams, just sit back and you will have your ears opened as to how different HiFi units are.
I would like to assist the guy who asked the first question of the day about bass and subwoofers. I am a head-fi guy, not a hi-fi guy, but I do have an 11.2 Dolby Atmos setup in my living room. All 11 speakers are M&K Loudspeakers which are mounted either on-wall or in-ceiling. I have two SVS subs - a large cylindrical sub and a medium-sized box sub. Just look 'em up online. The two subs are constructed very differently which is exactly the point. Controlling them with the app (which is great!) I can play a scene in a movie with one on and one of to hear the differences between the subs. The differences are how they complement one another. Together they provide deep, rich, full, window-shaking bass. So I say go for two subs and mix it up. Don't get two of the same.
As a computer engineer with 30 years working experience with digital systems I am genuinely intersted to understand how two digital streamers of the *same data stream* can possibly sound different. Unless I am missing something fundamental here, the ONLY sound difference can be when the digital stream is converted to analogue... i.e. in the DAC. I see comments here about hearing the difference in streamers so I am interested to hear how people think that works...
Yeah, even I'm genuinely curious to know and i was hoping somebody i.e. a more neutral party could explain it. Spotify sounds hugely better through my streamer - the Ifi Zen Stream than when played from my PC. When streamed from my PC to DAC, music sounds fine - till you make the switch to the Zen Stream and suddenly the mids become fuller, the treble becomes sharper and yet more refined and the bass sounds more substantial. All in all, it sounds like a huge improvement and even Helen Keller would be able to make out the difference. I've often contemplated whether its a Software trick?
I'm no expert, but my assumption would be that a streamer/source that has a higher quality, more stable data transfer to the DAC would have the potential to sound better than a source that may have some data loss or requires more error correction. Similar to a pristine CD compared to a lightly scratched disk. It might sound close enough to our ears, but the equipment is having to compensate for minor read errors. We only notice when it's bad enough to cause obvious issues.
@@darpanbhuyan1909 did you compared your PC using exclusive mode? Because windows do change the sound of a stream, also noisy USB ports, etc can have an impact. Still think a cheap external streamer is enough.
Higher quality output stage with lower jitter, better clocks, and linear power supply = higher quality audio. I have a wiim pro and an eversolo dmp-a6 master edition. Used as a streamer, the difference in audio quality is pretty big.
@@corrrect Do you notice differences in sound quality between the Wiim Pro and an Eversolo DMP-A6 Master Edition? I'm thinking about buying a streamer but I'm not sure which one to choose. Thanks
In 2010 I bought my first SONOS and have continued to invest in these products to have some background music everywhere in the house. I have always had a stereo system to listen carefully to music in detail. I currently have a CAMBRIDGE AUDIO CXA-81 amplifier, CXC CD player and CXN-V2 network player and KEF R500 floor standing speakers. I also connected the PORT from SONOS to my amplifier. This PORT is connected in 3 ways: Analog to the amplifier, digital coaxial to the CXN-V2 and via Toslinck optical to the CXA-81. So you can compare immediately. I get the best sound through the CXN-V2. It is also beautiful via the DAC of the CXA-81. But the analog signal from the PORT, which uses its own DAC, is of much lower quality. If I now compare the streamer of the CXN-V2 with the streamer of the SONOS (digitally connected of course), I notice no difference. Thank you for your nice reviews. Greetings from Belgium.
From a purely technical standpoint, bit rates and depths being equal, the DAC and the type of streamer/DAC connection will determine if the streamer can influence the sound in the time domain (smearing). With Optical/Coaxial SPIDF connections, data is clocked at the streamer end and blindly transferred to the DAC; the streamer’s quality influences the sound. With a USB Audio Device Class 2 connection (possible since 2006) the DAC can control the data transfer pacing and can clock the data itself making it possible for a good DAC to eliminate smearing. USB, though, introduces another issue that may or may not be addressed on the DAC depending on its quality: analog noise transfer from the streamer to the DAC. A good DAC will galvanically or otherwise isolate the USB connection to prevent noisy streamers from polluting the analog circuitry in the DAC. Without this isolation, the quality of the sound can again be determined by the streamer; a good streamer might internally isolate its noise from the USB but this become irrelevant when the isolation is implemented on a good DAC.
@lujiez Interesting rant… more folks will see it if you post it again out in the main comments for the video rather than in the reply thread for my comment.
Thank you for including us in your broadcast. Your hard work and great answers are always very helpful and appreciated. As an aside, listening and reading reviews can be helpful with the understanding that all reviews are subjective. Your advice to experience things for yourself is sound advice. 😂😂
I recently got a Bluesound Node X streamer that has an ESS Sabre DAC in it. I replaced a Wiim Pro with a Schiit Modi DAC attached to it. I generally like the sound of the ESS Sabre DAC (it's in the CA DacMagic 200 I have on my den system), and this Node X was an expensive unit, but I swear the Wiim Pro with the Schiit Modi sounded better to my ears. Also, I really don't care that much for the Bluesound app and much prefer the Wiim app. The Wiim with the Modi, or the Wiim with the SMSL SU-1 proves you don't have to spend a ton to get great sound.
@@eliotwilliams4279 I would never want to discourage you from getting a Node X. It's still a great piece - the headphone amp is terrific and for my vintage NAD system that it's connected to, it allows me to add a subwoofer to the system, and I connect my NAD CD player through the Node to use it's DAC. But as far as sound quality, to my ears there are less expensive options. I took the Wiim Pro and connected it to my family room system, and added the SMSL SU-1, and that combination sounds really good, and was probably $500 less than the Node X. Cheers - to whatever streaming solution you pick! 🙂
Well said and I am sure you are right. But still it is nice to outsmart our (mostly old) mens rationality to justify the fun of purchasing fancy but useless technostuff.
Streamers can make a noticeable difference imo. What made me realize this was a wiim mini vs a raspberry pi4(volumio) into a topping e50. The raspberry pi was far superior in sound quality. In comparison, the wiim sounded loose, out of time, and the bass was a mess. The raspberry pi4 sounded clear, tight, and right. My system was Tidal Connect to..... Wiim optical out > E50 or Raspberry pi 4 usb > E50 To Rotel 1572 mkII > Klipsch Heresy IV > SVS SB3000 The issue is that the wiim has such a better user interface/experience compared to Volumio/etc. I eventually got the EverSolo DMP-A6 and am very happy.
Replaced my Bluesound Node with the EverSolo dmp-a6 and it was not a subtle change in my system. The EverSolo is not much more money and is better in overall sound quality, function and features. Plus, I have a nice 2TB SSD installed for local files. The Node is great on my head-fi stack and the Wiim Pro went to the patio system 👌
@guystpierrecomposer Gustard R26 R2R Dac used on both, and I also tried out the internal dacs, EverSolo internal was much better than the Node to me. When I added the Gustard dac, it was just a jaw dropper to me, as if the performers were in my room and spaced perfectly and just fantastic tonality and timing for my old ears! The combo of EverSolo and Gustard was just better in all aspects, so that is how I listen now.
My concern with the Eversolo is the lifetime of that system, its basically running android right, whos to say the tidal app is supported on that device in 4 years?
I replaced my Bluesound Node with a DMP-A6. They were both running into a Chord Qutest DAC. After using the Eversolo for a few months, I don’t think the Eversolo sounds as good as the Node did. Unfortunately I sent my cousin the Node so now I’m trying to figure out what my next step is going to be. An Innuous Pulsar just popped up on TMR…
@eliotwilliams4279 I literally doubt I will live that long sadly. The Upnp plays great too though, so I would just run Roon or a 3rd party app like MediaConnect if needed. 👍
Great channel, always fun and informative. I just bought some floorstanding speakers (2 pairs), so I can remove the subwoofer in both rooms. I spend too much time tweaking the settings based on the different recordings, rather than enjoying the music, i just cannot leave it alone. In theory the low bass prescence will be reduced, but I'm enjoying listening to the music and not worrying about adjusting the bass levels. Simple can be more enjoyable, although recognise others might not agree, they might enjoy constantly adjusting things
Just added an external phono stage. Was using the internal phono stage on the amp I am using. Boom. More bass and deeper and wider soundstage. Love immediately getting that improvement. Will roll with this setup and upgrade the cart in a few months.
For a long time I listened to a Bluesound Node into an aux DAC. I added the PD Creative linear power supply to it and I think the sound quality is probably satisfying to a vast amount of audiophiles with systems under $10k. I personally believe in doing the best you can on your source materials based on the "Garbage in/ garbage out" theory so I upgraded to an Auralic. Yes, I heard an improvement in balance, naturalness and musicality. How much? Not enough to justify the price for a lot of people I guess. Can I justify the price with diminishing returns being what they are? Probably not but the Auralic sounds great and its big trick is doing excellent wifi which I need. The trouble with audio is there is no going back once you hear something better. If someone wants to consider an Auralic or Lumin etc, look for used. Let someone else take the depreciation hit. Chasing the latest nuance in technology is expensive and you can get very close for half the money.
The real question is since it does make a good difference, why the heck doesn't Bluesound offer a linear power supply upgrade themselves? Many people are loathe to void their warranty digging around inside the Node to make changes. Not everyone was raised building Heathkits. They aren't going to risk screwing up their $600 Node or higher priced Node X.
Great idea Randy, answering questions that make a difference in the enjoyment of this hobby. Thanks for all you do and you know the saying, find a job you love and you will never work a day in your life.
I fairly recently upgraded to a Schiit Freya + and a Schiit Bifrost 2 DAC. When I made this upgrade I was using a Sonos Connect streamer. I was satisfied with how the new equipment sounded with my older streamer utilizing the coax output. After watching your review of the WiiM Pro and how well it sounded and functioned I started considering an upgrade. For $150 I didn’t see how I could go wrong. Worst case scenario if I didn’t like it I could just send it back. I installed the WiiM Pro and used the coax output and same cable I used with the Sonia Connect. The difference in sound from the WiiM vs Sonos was unreal. Even my wife when walking through the room stopped and made a comment on how it sounded. I believe streamers CAN make a big difference when using the same downstream equipment. The great news is you don’t have to spend a ton of money. Hell my Sonos was double the cost of the WiiM Pro. Love your videos!
I keep it simple. Marantz 2500 paired with Klipsch Bells and a tablet streaming via wifi. Soon I'll add just one more item, a dac. I've heard good things about dacs. I have a Yamaha CD-1 that has a beautiful sound to it for the pursuit music. Otherwise, having too much in the audio stream can get messy.
I had the Bluesound Node 2i for quite a while and enjoyed it. Then I tried a Lumin U1 mini (open box but still spendy) and heard very worthwhile improvements in clarity/detail and, to my ears anyway, naturalness. Ran them both through the Denafrips Pontus II.
All mony go into research on streamin so every year there will improvements you can hear. Need this? No. Buy valves and get a away from transistor dead sound..🙂
It’s mainly about soundstage improvements. The depth. And that’s what we enjoy? Bass performance can be an issue. They got a problem with this. The Ever Solo is leaning towards the bright side but with full control. I would never use it with a horn speaker from Klipsch or something like it. Spendor, yes. Soft upper goes fine with EverSolo I think. Old vintage speakers? Jepp..
@@theklipschcave3389 in my opinion they are getting worse than the minimalist allo digi one signature and pi2aes days. Streaming has peaked with upnp but some people want to spend money on all-in-ones which is like breaking the first rule of Hifi
Hi Randy. Yes all streamers might sound the same but there are other considerations besides how they sound such as how good their app is and different features they may or may not have. If I buy a more expensive streamer that doesn't necessarily mean I'm getting ripped off.
So you mean that the clocks in the more expensive streamers isn't better than the ones in cheap ones? I thought it was the clocks that made all the difference in a streamer.
@@sumsum2047 I fell for some of the propaganda that we get from reviewers. I have a Samsung monitor which I have connected via HDMI to an Nvidia Shield. The monitor has an analog audio out jack which I connected to my amplifier. And it sounded great but I thought well since they are saying that an external DAC will make it sound better I will get one. After all a good external DAC should sound better than the cheap internal DAC that my monitor uses right? So I got an external DAC and connected the monitor's audio out to the DAC and then connected the DAC to my amp. But low and behold there is absolutely no way I could tell any difference in the sound quality. And I did a blind listening test with my friend and he couldn't tell the difference either. In fact he thought that bypassing the DAC and connecting the monitor directly to my amp actually sounded better. (Which probably isn't true either.) So I ended up sending the DAC back. But having said that, if somebody wants to buy an expensive DAC and it makes them feel good to have it then more power to them. Some people like expensive stuff for the bragging rights. It's their hard-earned money and if that's what they want that's fine. Who am I to judge?
Going from my phone directly to the DAC via USB input or from the Wiim Pro via the Coax in to the DAC (Ifi Zen One Signature) the differences are minute. I was using the Amazon HD music app on both. I went back and forth several times and could not say which one is better.
Always enjoy your perspective and presenting concepts based on your experience and system(s). As a counterpoint, from someone that has tried many streamers and DACs, of all price points in a fairly pricy and revealing system, I’ll just say all streamers definitely do not sound the same. As you mentioned, depending on where you are with your own system, a streamer upgrade may not be the next logical step. However, the isolation of the output stage (hopefully NOT USB) and the quality of the power supply and especially clocks, do influence the quality of the sound. I’m upgrading from a Zen Mk3 to a Grimm MU1 as the difference in the quality of the sound justifies the cost in my system, to me. There seems to be this race to the bottom on RUclips that is bothersome to me. It’s trendy to say spending more doesn’t yield better results or law of dimensioning returns says you should never spend more then XX on a DAC…. Well if someone wants to spend $10k for a 10% improvement in sound, it’s ok for them to do so, AND there is likely an improvement in what they hear. Or even perceive to hear and it’s true you can’t measure that, but who cares? This hobby, or journey as everyone seems to call it, but it is a hobby, os personal and there doesn’t need to be right and wrong. I’m not a budget audiophile according to most of the gear reviewed here, but I have a budget. I enjoy Randy and your approach. I just wanted to present a different perspective.
I once had a pair of tower speakers and I was happy with the bass, I bought a sub knowing that I could return it if I didnt like the sound I was getting. Long story short I ended with two subwoofers at a lower volume but spreading the load; way happier than with the towers alone and I thought I has happy enough lol!
Since you have the Emotiva amps and their new XDA-3 dac, you can switch between the 2 optical inputs easily and compare 2 different streamers using the same dac, amps, and speakers.
I haven’t fully tested but I think using wooden speaker stands or (floor standers) make your speakers sound warmer and less sibilant than metal stands. The moment I took my speakers off these solid wood chairs, and into these metallic tube stands, the speakers just sounded hollow even though the stands had some pretty thick isolation pads
Listening here in France. Keep up the good work. Have made a few purchases from your advice. I'm on a new journey after a lot of years. Enjoying the music more. Now have a few old new items!!! from Cambridge Audio, NAD at the old end to SMSL Fosi new end...
@@cheapaudioman OG CheapAudioman- really liked the notes on a notebook :) Just woke up look :) The little creatures, faux sponsors, thermos, nitty gritty vibe :) Satire :) I do like the space suit dude now. Maybe “Throwback Tuesdays” :). Sponsored by audiophile pizza, makes the songs feel like you’re 18 again :) There is an interest in how streamers of different quality sound on external dacs. With a good preamp, Saga for instance you can A/B with same amp and speakers, maybe same dac. Just use different dac inputs then swap inputs to see if your impressions hold up. Tweaks on WiiM Pro optical output make a substantial improvement in sound Quality using Amazon HD as a source. I picked up a WiiM Pro from your link and reviews. It sounded like it’s price in my system until I upgraded the optical cable to a glass fiber cable, helped with more clarity and images bass a bit. Then plugged that cable into an iFi spdif iPurifier 2 with an iFi iPower X power supply, going into my Metrum Octave dac, then this WiiM Pro started to be rewarding to listen to for me. Much more audiophile sound quality. Good to know how these things perform as is, and with helpful tweaks. I think you can still be money ahead with the WiiM Pro with tweaks for the performance level.
About enjoying what you do: it shows. There’s a lot of audio channels on yt but you are the one who seems to not be “doing content creation” but rather talking about what you like. I have nothing bad to say to say about the likes of Andrew Robinson or John Darko, but your delivery (and pricing!) enervate you above them. I love your laid back way of talking about stuff. Like visiting the strange uncle I’ve never had. The only thing I do t like are the generic thumbs.
The best way to find out if a streamer is also a good dac is to test the distortion coming from the optical channel versus the analog output. The Wiim mini is a good streamer with a lousy DAC and even worse ADC. The Audio science review site has the measurements.
I've tried around 8 or 9 different streamers, used as a digital transport only...same dac each time. Honestly im more of an objective guy, and was always of the mindset that a digital signal is just that, and one should hear no difference. For the most part i find this to be true, but i have noticed some do have differences..like darker background, which gives me the perception of better dynamics and instrument separation. So i dk. The other thing one may notice, if you dont hear a sonic difference between digital transports is the presentation between the speakers. Vocals being more forward, drums further back, things of that nature. So while science tells me they are all just one's and zero's, my subjective side of the brain can notice a difference between a couple models. Subtle differences. And im sure there is a reason for the differences..maybe the output used (optical/coaxial/USB) but still a difference. I understand my comment is open for scrutiny, the whole proper AB testing and what not. Comparing 2 streamers off the same dac at the same time has issues..level matching can be off, using 2 different type input/outputs. But even if one said they cant hear the difference, sometimes the imaging and soundstage differences can be more noticable. Even with everything ive said about my experiences, for the most part most budget or midfi streamers sound the same. Just my opinion.
The rest of your system and it's ability to resolve those differences is very real. I've done high end DAC experiments on some systems where you don't get much difference between the built-in DAC of something like a Bluesound NODE and a $3k external DAC. But then transport that experiment to another system and it's night and day. Preamp amp speakers. As you climb the ladder, the DAC differences will make significant impact overall
@@erics.4113 My experience too... Folks laugh at me, but I have settled on the WiiM Pro via digital coax out to a PS Audio GainCell DAC/Preamp and use with a vintage Sansui 4000 receiver. I have other more expensive streamers... The WiiM Pro simply suits my taste compared to the more expensive offerings I own, and have owned. My buddy too, he has the EverSolo streamer, and I turned him on to the WiiM Pro, he loves it, and is kind of bummed about the EverSolo and the monies spent. But, he said he will keep the ES for the VU Meters... He is using the GainCell DAC/Pre also, as he is the one that turned me on to them. It is the EQ in the WiiM units, that to my mind, blow away the more expensive competition.
It’s not just about ones and twos its also about the strength of the antennas that can receive the Wi-Fi from a good distance from the router without any glitches, so you do really get what you pay for. 😊
Randy nails it with an under-appreciated, underemphasized comment: “Streamers might make a difference if your gear is good enough.” I’ve absolutely found this to be true on my friend’s system (Wilson Alexia, Dan Dagostino) when he upgraded from a Roon Nucleus to a Taiko computer that costs more than my car. Huge difference in space, shape, and weight. Ok, those devices aren’t exactly streamers (both input into a dCS Rossini, which has a streamer built in) but the principle sounds the same, in that they’re all-digital and way upstream in “how on earth does this make a difference?”territory.
Even $500k speakers can use subs effectively. If you are going to get a sub, always get at least 2 if not more. When you create a stack of REL subs (6 for example) each sub can be adjusted differently which increases the subs effectiveness. If you want to go cheap, then get a Bose system, anything else, invest in your room (treatments), then gear and concentrate on synergy
I run the OG Wiim Pro with a Topping E50 DAC and a Lokius …so I’m good . Not everything has to be expensive AF ..sometimes you just gotta be a bit creative. Great video ☕️☕️👍
You don’t need two DACs and speakers to compare the sound of two streamers. You just need someone else to do the switching, randomly and blind to you, while you record which is which and other perceptions by ear. 10 samples minimum. Easy.
Great discussion. My 2cents worth! On the Subwoofer piece. Even though my “tower” speakers have awesome bass the addition of a sub woofer somewhat shakes the room so you can “feel” as well as hear the bass! In terms of streamers - I’ve tried a few options. Have a pretty high end system and I think the WiiM pro is about as good as anything I’ve tried. However I generally will say CD is still “sonically” (to my ears) better than streaming.
One thing to note when it comes to subs, if you are running passive tower speakers ‘full-range’ you better have one hell of am amplifier in order to push (depending on your listening distance (MLP:Speaker distance)) the low frequencies to high levels (admittedly I listen at damn near reference level) without a fair amount of distortion. Low frequencies require much (I emphasize the term ‘much’) more power to drive than high(er) frequencies. Just another reason to purchase externally powered/active subwoofers (or better yet, DIY them yourself)
Nice work as always. Regarding streamers... IMO streamers have less variables to consider...wattage, amperage etc.. So, if the stats are the same (bit/kHz), and since digital signals are 0's and 1's...then they should be the same regardless of price? What about the quality of internal components though? wiring, circuits, chips, etc. Some mentors have also said your sound is only as good as your source or what is upstream in your system... e.g. if you have the best speakers in the world but a crappy amp...the speakers likely will sound crappy. Using that line of thinking...the streamer is the very first link in your chain, or spring in your river,...so should you make sure it is of high quality? Maybe...or maybe not (see above)?
Expensive streamers have an even greater impact on the sound than Dac's do. I know that sounds weird and i didn't believe it either but as i am going up the latter im realizing it more and more. Try an Antipodes K50 or a grimm mu1 and you'll pickup your jaw from the floor. And one has to remember that the 0's and 1's don't travel by magic to the DAC, they need a lift and that lift is an" analogue square wave" . Thats where the streamer comes in. That square wave, when you look at it in time through an oscilloscope, is never square, its distorted in shape when affected by noise, electric and magnetic interference, bandwith and even the sample rate used. The more the sample rate goes up the harder it is for the computer to deal with it and you distort the wave and change the sound. You need a super fast piece to deal with the calculations. The quality of the work done by the streamer lessens the job of the DAC at removing noise and activating voltages rails to deal with packet errors, ( that's why companies use discrete components and different voltage rails with their own power supplies inside the good stuff) so your DAC gets to sound even better then it should. That is surely what i am experiencing. I went the antipodes way because of their R&D on making digital sound more like vinyl or analogue and to give you an idea, i just changed the power supply on my S30( because im not rich enough for a K50) from a renoun Ferrum Hypsos, super good PS to an Antipodes S60 that i got at half price and just that effect completely changed my sound. It had the effect of changing a small amp to an Emotiva DR2 kind of change. I couldn't believe it! And that's just the power supply for the streamer, thats not even a K50 so yes, a streamer has a gigantic effect on the sound but you only get how much as you go up the latter. I used to believe they we're only 0's and 1's but that's not the right question. The right question is :" How do these binary numbers travel to the DAC?" Started with a 1000$ Project streamer to a 400$ project DAC and i could hear it. Then the Auralic G2.1 at a friend's house( huge difference) then my antipodes( even bigger difference). Audio emptys your pockets if you have a good ear. That's just the truth. You either accept it or not. For those who don't believe me , go try One at an audiophiles house who's got a great system. Its undeniable! And if you think people like to spend that's rudiculous. Everybody wants to spend as little as possible. There are some who don't know what to do with their money but these are rare. Most audiophiles simply want to get the best possible sound for the money like everybody else. The problem is that you can't unhear what you've heard. That's the problem. I've got an old jetta as a car. Im not rich, but ive got very good ears. So i put everything in my sound system because great sound brings me great pleasure like any other passion, its not reasonable but more like a drug. High quality sound can have that effect. And that's what audiophiles are, legal drug addicts...
@@dan-qe1tb it's always fascinating to see that after a long ,scientifically updated answer, corroborated by real specialist's, that there are always some who, with no knowledge of the subject and without specifying which part of the answer they're having trouble understanding , will just resort to " Homer Simpson" replies without even trying to send the blood up to the thinking part of the body. Its just amazing, but not in a great way. You know, the other kind...
@@philippelabrecque6658 Mr. Siau at Benchmark (the electrical engineer who had engineered my DAC), would be shocked at some of the claims Mr. Jenkins had made. I wouldn't even pay $2000 for your unit. Who at Stereophile tried to say a signal can be digital and analog at the same time? Who said that a square wave could ever be compared to a sine wave, or real world music which is neither of those? There are many things that can be measured, that aren't audible. There are well implemented and poorly implemented clocks at many price points. In modern designs, the tolerance for error in both the DAC's power source, and the digital source that feeds it, is considerable. The amount of data available in the source is fixed, no matter how many bits the words drawn from it consist of, or how often you sample it. My DAC doesn't care about my Flex's 32 bit, 96 kHz native spec; there's a SRC ahead of the chip that frames it how it wants. That is true of most any DAC. Your ear can't detect lower than 3% THD at 1.8 kHz (and what's detectable rises below there), and yet some marketing people or reviewers may say that the 128 db S/N ratio of my DAC is a big deal, despite the poor relation of this spec, to real world music.
@@dan-qe1tb Again, you're speculating while I'm experiencing it live, in real life. That's the difference buddy. I don't like to spend for this stuff. I only do once im convinced it makes a difference , that means: i hear it. If i didn't i wouldn't buy. Have you taken the time to read on guy's who just swap capacitors on audio circuits? They test every capacitors one by one and listen for changes .from 50cent to 800$ capacitors. They give detailed analysic of their findings and none of them sounds the same except on the low level. Once you go up a bit there are dramatic changes. I can detect Mundorf capacitors in a component pretty much every time im exposed to them . They have a specific sound that i recognize. Don't make hypotheses, experiment. Theory is just that, theory. Experiencing is real. When we're 8 audiophiles in a room and we swap out components or cables or even diffusers, everybody hears the same thing but to a different degree. But they all hear the change and they're not always subtle.
The difference is imagined not real if the new equipment can't be picked as superior reliably in a double blind listening test in standard A/B/X fashion with somebody else doing the switching
I have three different streaming solutions attached to my SMSL SU9-pro, Node N130, Chromecast Audio and a Wiim Pro. With my back turned, my partner manning the remote and the same file from the same service I can barely tell any difference, let alone which is which. If you have Node X money.....buy a Wiim Pro and a $600 DAC.... it'll sound way better
Tried an experiment recently. I had changed some components of my digital front end, so I decided to go back to using a disc spinner instead of a streamer (which was playing WAV files of my CDs). I used on old Sony ES9000. I was surprised. The Sony, actually playing CDs, had more punch and liveliness, it was clearly noticeable. Unfortunately, it also had some aggressive grain esp. in the treble region, that I just could not put up with long-term. So the streamer was nicer, smoother, but did lack just a bit of that punchy sound. So now I guess my unresolved question would be, do I have to go back to a disc spinner again, or are there any streamers that do supply that extra quality? Who knows.
@cheapaudioman would love to get your input on Entry level audiophile gear. Looking at getting rid of my low/mid fi seperates and going with Integrated McIntosh like MA252
I might agree, had I not noticed that any change on the power supply (adding ifi’s DC purifier to the original SMPS, replacing the smps with a lin one, add other filters.. USB cable, even the internet: wifi vs ethernet, switches etc) changes the SQ.
Here my experience. I try to avoid the rabbit hole but... I started out purchasing a blusound powernode, Tekton Pendragon speakers and audio lab t6000 cd transport. Sounded good for a beginner like me. Then I saw denafrips Ares ii. I purchased that to replace the dac in the powernode. I gave my powernode to my son and I purchased a blusound node and purchased a peachtree Nova 300. There was improvement. Then I replaced my cd transport to a Jay's Audio cdii- mkiii. There's an improvement. Then I replaced the denafrips Ares ii with a denafrips Pontus II. Again improvement. But my streaming was just ok. Something was missing. So I replaced the power supply in the the node to a external linear PS...LHY and wow. $279 and the change was significant. That to me is not a rabbit hole but necessary changes. Now I'm $10,000.00 into it. A lot of money but I'm in my 60s and can afford it. I'm satisfied. That being said there's more I want to do. But as fir the streamer? If you have a blusound node change the power supply. It's pretty easy. No soldering. The kits have everything you need. Just make sure you get the right one. I don't know why but it gave more clarity, body, separation and improved dynamics. I was surprised. So i do think improved components improve sound.
Did I mention this on another of your videos? But- I really enjoy your videos. Few things I can seriously criticize. Btw- I’m retired USN 1987-2007, followed by another 10 years working as a civilian with Corps of Engineers.. retired early. You had said you were USN as well.. on the nuke side ? Take care David
Love your channel and your success on youtube. My entertainment center is driven by my Sony STR-AZ5000ES which I guess is a level higher than most of what you do on your channel but I still love your technical reviews and commentary.
Randy you are right, the "law of diminishing returns" is what expensive streamers are all about. I had a few very expensive ones and always come back to the Bluesound Node. It's more important to have a good quality DAC. Any one who says anything different is well..................... (IMHO)!!
So, I was curious if I could hear any differences between 2 streamers: IFI Stream vs WiiM Pro. I listened to the same HiRes recordings from Qobuz. I have the IFI connected via USB and WiiM connected via Coax to a Topping E50 DAC. I heard maybe a slight difference, dare an improvement in "air" and "depth" with the USB connection. It was an extremely small difference and definitely subjective. WiiM is a game changer as it offers the best value, great customer support, an excellent app and sounds awesome. I have a pair of 30 year old Boston HD5V speakers connected to a WiiM Mini and Fosi Audio TD10, and wow! Though, it's kinda fun as an aging audiophile to still be able to hear or imagine differences. Cheapaudioman is fantastic and a joy to watch. I'm blown away as to how affordable great hifi is today.
Hi Randy, Your channel rocks. Been a music fan for a long time, but bought a midrange Marantz Atmos AVR and 7.4.1 mid-priced wall-mounted speakers and recently picked up a WiiM. I don’t have the space or $$$ to invest in a separate, full-blown integrated receiver and speakers for stereo listening but want to maximize the quality of my existing setup at a lower cost. As the Cheap Audio Guy, any recommendations on what to do, as in (a) replacing the LCR speakers to ones that can do double duty (any speaker recommendations); (b) connecting a Fosi or other lower priced amp to the Zone 2 and using that to drive a separate set of “stereo speakers” in the same room (any speaker recommendations); (c) sell it all and start over; (d) pour some whiskey, and just plug in some in headphones; or (e) pour another whiskey and convince myself that AVRs sound as good as integrated amps?
When purchasing music I sample tracks by streaming. After downloading my music and playing it from my Mac Mini server it sounds much better. I think streaming is only good for sampling and casual listening on my Atexa Ball.
Do try a subtower just behind your listening point. Just by used smaller subs. Don’t buy expensive stuff. Adjust manually. After a while you land the level which you like. 70 % bass on the front, 30 % on the tower behind you. Anyone tried this out?
I've just put together a vintage system that sounds great to me, but I was streaming Tidal off my P.C, via a Fiio DAC, and it didn't sound special. I've added a Wiim Pro Plus and I'm blown away. So presumably there is a difference in streamers- both my P.C, and now the Wiim, are receiving the same signal initially? Surely cheaper gear is noisier etc? I might add I know little about audio, just that spending $750 on my (used) gear was ear-opening. I'm not going to get sucked into the diminishing returns I see in audio though- not aged sixty- something! Thanks for good videos, subbed.
Hi, i watch alot of your videos, feel im going round in circles trying to find the right system lol. Can you suggest? Im after a system that can play cds, hook up to record player and links to the internet radio as there is zero signal where i live I was looking at the Ruark r3 (i cant afford the r410) or denon rcd-n12dab which is about £600 here in the UK. I have listened to the Ruark in a shop and it was pretty amazing sound quality but still unsure. Would you be able to suggest? :) sadly finance is tight so looking under 1000. Many thanks again!
Well said sir. This is good stuff! Can't stand watches on my wrist. I'm a working man(not a slight towards office folks) . Time is an illusion anyways. A social construct if you will.
I don’t have too much experience with streamers except for Blue sound OS, Sonos, and PI/Volumio. Setting aside the DAC portion, my guess is sonic differences are likely to be hard to determine as you mention. Personally, I think it comes down to the user preference for interfacing with the streaming device often in an app that is more important to the overall musical experience rather than minor sonic differences. Thanks Randy for sharing your content in a fun way!
I’ve heard a difference between my Bluesound node and my silent Angel streamer. I’ve heard an even bigger difference when I added separate network switch in between my router and my streamer.
Yes, digital signal is digital. Otherwise, you're gonna have to get golden cables all the way to your internet service provider and all the way to the computer where your favorite artist has stored the digital mastered file
I installed a $50 Netgear GS108eV3 network switch, it has been tested by the guys over at Alpha-Audio in a newtork switch shootout in regards to filtering capability. It really made both a visual and audio difference in my system. Folks in the house noticed the improvements immediately, even asking if I had purchased a new TV.
@@michaelwright1602I don't understand how that can improve quality unless it replaced a malfunctioning piece of equipment. A home network switch is at the end of a massively complex line that winds its way through hundreds of miles of cabling and countless routers, servers, and other pieces of backbone network equipment. Not to mention I thought network protocols had error checking/correcting built in. It just doesn't make sense to me when scrutinized but then again I'm not a network or computer engineer.
I have an Emotiva DAC and Dr1's on the way. Patreon gold. I'm hoping for advice on streaming, ROON, etc. . I'm hoping for advice on where and how I can get solid advice on good choices to feed the new equipment?
Well, Sub's increase or have the ability to increase the perception of space. You can, if you're slightly handy, build your own Bass traps. And if it makes you smile then unless you hear something that out shines what you've been happy with then you've succeeded.
Randy, curious on your opinion to use a Apple AirPort Express last generation to stream Apple Music optical to my DAC? I had the AirPort Express laying around and it works great, it’s limited to 16 44.1k like all airplay 2 streamers but if I want to go high res I hook up the iPad Pro to USB C to the DAC for up to 24 192k. It was a free streamer for me, but the Pangea optical cable cost me $50.
Regarding the need of subwoofer for music listening, it depends on the main speakers' bass response and the type of music. Pipe organ and synthesizers can plays very deep, but electric and acoustic bass (and kick drum) don't play below 41Hz - that's open E with standard tuning. So if your music does not go below 41Hz, and your speakers' frequency response is not below -3dB at 41Hz, then a subwoofer won't be necessary. And bass doesn't hit 41Hz often, especially with electric bass as musicians don't like to play open strings especially E because they sound sloppy.
I agree on the streamers Randy. It gets really difficult to sus out the difference between a CD and the lossless streaming of it with reqlly good wireless connections, decent DAC’s, and just a WiiM as the streamer, unless the amps and speakers and DAC’s are $$$, which is out of league for most of us regular folk. As long as I keep enjoying my music, I don’t think the difference is worth that kind of investment to stream, especially with the variation in performance of wireless infrastructure around here. At least I’ve learned what the shades of difference are sonically in that regard. In a word, also subtle. I do resort to streaming when I want to hear music out of my collection, and it’s certainly enjoyable with only a WiiM streamer. I feel that I may be able to get a subtle improvement from a $500 standalone streamer, but I don’t want to spend that to find out. I did experiments with a few optical cables, and one of them was best, but not that expensive. It turns out that your mileage can vary with different optical cables, but it’s a matter of finding the right $10-$15 one, not spending $100. All inexpensive optical cables are NOT created equal.
If you're just talking about streaming digital data, there's no difference between streamers. You get the same number of bits in the same order regardless of which wi-fi or wired streamer you use, and the cable type doesn't matter either. All such devices are trivially capable of transmitting lossless audio streams perfectly these days, unless there's an actual flaw in the equipment. The only exception is Bluetooth streaming, which doesn't have the bandwidth for lossless audio.
@@EnglishMike well, you just touched on what the debate is all about.. there’s this presumption that things like clocks and whatever circuitry streamers are composed of, i.e. different components, power supplies and whatever all have a quality level associated with them, and there’s a thought that the streamer has to “cost” a certain percentage of a DAC to be somewhat in line with it in terms of a quality matchup, so … I know what you’re saying but there’s a debate about that, so that’s your opinion .. I don’t know where I stand on the issue, but I think I’m kind of in there with Randy on the issue.
@@EnglishMikeI suggest you first of all start testing different equipment. Differences from everything from Power cables, plugs, vs players(just 0-1's in the end), speaker cables, optical cables, coax +++ is very noticeable.
@@wegardfjeld3789 Double blind ABX testing says otherwise which is probably why audiophiles are so averse to it. I'd wager that nobody can reliably tell the difference between, say, a $5 speaker cable and a $500 speaker cable (i.e. significantly better than chance) no matter how many audiophiles you test. But I accept that I'm stepping into a hornet's nest here, so I will happily leave it there, even if you feel the need to reply.
Maybe. Maybe _transporters_ all sound the same. But you have to consider the software (mobile app) that comes with it. And the capabilities of the unit to load music in a seamless and efficient way. Either from an online service or from a local NAS or just a USB connected drive. It sounds simple, but there are many considerations.
I'm currently streaming Tidal on my Google TV connected to my AVR via HDMI eArc. Is the difference noticeable if I get a dedicated music streamer like eversolo compared to TV streaming via HDMI eArc or streaming on my AVR?
Thanks for all you do, Randy. If I can suggest a couple of Duke Ellington albums from 1959ish to sample: Jazz Party (sometimes Jazz Party in Stereo) and Blues in Orbit. They're both compilations so the song mix varies. They both sound great - recorded in the same Columbia church studio as lots of Miles and Sinatra. In any event, if you try them casually you might find something to dig in to, or just enjoy.
On the topic of streamer audio quality, I agree with your take on not worrying about it, at the very least rank it below the actual software because thats more likely to determine how much you enjoy and actually use your streamer.
Interested with this, but are you using the internal DAC of the wiim (ie feeding an Amp from the wiim's line out) or using the digital out of the wiim?. And which power adapter are you comparing it with? Am using a spare iPad power adapter and the digital out of the wiim so am not sure if there is going to be any significant improvement for me, thanks...
@@rusco88I’m using an external dac, so digital out. I was just using whatever stock plug that came with the wiim before. Your mileage may vary depending on your room and equipment, but I’ve noticed a blacker background, deeper bass and overall more dynamic sound with the iFi supply. It’s more apparent in my living room than in my second system, which is in a smaller, more enclosed area.
Each streamer has different audio architecture and that highly influence how zeros and ones are going to be rendered before they are sent to DAC. Also interface output integration: coaxial, I2S, AES/EBU - some streamers can send reduced clock jitter, clean, high quality signals, and some of them don't - it all depends on price of components integrated into that streamer.
Went thru the sub arc. Had good tower speakers, didn't feel the need for a sub. Started following a rock band, Fan comments suggested I was missing out on the low end. Added a sub and they were right, Uneven room dispersion led me to a second sub. Happy.
I had a question about 2.1 speakers. Now, 2.1 has mostly been associated with affordable computer speakers. However, a good argument could be made in favor of 2.1 being a better design than 2.0 as far as booksheslf/stand-mount speakers are concerned, both in terms of convenience of use (lighter-smaller satellite on stand, big-heavy sub on floor), and freedom of design (size of the speaker/satellite not being too much of a design constraint). Why then do we not see too many (if any at all) high end 2.1s?
Streamer wise, I bought an old Mac mini in perfect order, dropped in an SSD connected to a DAC via usb. I also have the option to stream bit- perfect using Audirvana, otherwise Spotify, sounds great. Mac mini overall cost £80 👍
Still using the discontinued Chromecast Audio because it just works so well with RUclips Music. I keep trying to find a replacement, but I end up deciding there's no reason to right now.
I'm just starting to explore modern stereo systems. I'm still confused about how a streamer works. Is it connecting to my phone via bluetooth? Isn't bluetooth a not very high audio quality connection? Also, if I have a bunch of music (both CD and downloads) digitized to a computer wouldn't it be better to get a high quality audio card (with a good DAC chipset) and run that into an amp via analog RCA?
You can stream music two ways: 1) You can stream via a streaming service app on your phone (like Apple Music, Qobuz, Tidal, etc) and send that signal to a streamer that's connected to your stereo. 2) You can buy a streamer that streams DIRECTLY from the service (*your phone not involved).
Sorry, I didn't address the computer thing. While I'm new to this, too, from what I gather you're going to have two options for incorporating your music into this system: 1) Raspberry Pi. This is open source and free but it takes some setting up. (This means watching a lot of videos and likely preparing to yell a lot.) 2) Roon. This is a proprietary software and something like $15 mo. Works out of the box, but you're basically paying to rent your own music. (I think I got that line from Randy, but I'm not sure.) ------------------------------- Option 1 above: If you've got the temperament for setting up new software, my suggestion is that you build a small Raspberry Pi streamer (instructions are all over RUclips), then put your music on an external hard drive, and then connect that hard drive to the Raspberry Pi streamer, and then play music! Also, I'm pretty sure there's a phone app for this streamer. Option 2 above: Buy a Roon-ready streamer, plug in your hard drive of music, and go with that. ------------------------------- Whichever of the two options you use above, you'll be able to stream using whatever service you want (except for Apple Music. Again, no that doesn't make any sense to any of us. Blame Apple.) And you'll be able to access your own music.
It is strange that today in 2023, many large, even fairly expensive, speakers roll off at 50Hz. My vintage ADS L520 (8" woofer, 1" tweeter) dig all the way to 35Hz. I don't get it. Why? Looking at getting some new JBL L100 Classics as my "end game" speakers, and guess what, I will need a subwoofer because they roll off at 40Hz. Crazy. Thank goodness for SVS or REL giving us that last octave.
If you stream bit perfect to a DAC and yes, the WiiM Pro streams bit perfect, perfect is perfect. There is no better than perfect. Soooo, WiiM Pro or million dollar streamer sending a bit perfect signal to the same DAC will sound the same. To say different pays homage to humans ability to hear things that are not there-which we’re all capable of.
Have you found anything cheaper than the Wiim ($90) to stream both Airplay 2 or bluetooth? I'm on iphone so a belkin connect would be fine for AP2, but my dad needs android streaming so bluetooth has to be on it also.
I use a Wiim pro ahead of a Berkeley Alpha DAC and another in front of a Topping D70. They’re both pricey setups. One with a Pass Labs Pre, a T+A amp and Harbeth speakers. About $20k of stuff and I l don’t feel I’m missing out. There’s a $11k SACD player sitting unused (EMM Labs, bought used quite cheaply though… ridiculously overpriced ). I stream Qobuz. I’ve played with HiFi Rose and Weiss stuff. Really nice and great interface but the title Wiim just does what I need it to do. The only screen I want is my iPad controller and I just pick out albums on Qobuz anyway. Anyway my point is the little Wiim can fit right in.
@@navinadv They're not that far apart. I wouldn't even say one is better than the other, they're just very-slightly different sounding and I might prefer the Topping. The Berkeley (mine is first gen) is from about 2008 so getting up in years. The Topping is a really nice DAC. I had a BMC of some sort before the Topping that had a Sabre dac/chip in it and I didn't care for it. The sound had a weird false shimmer to it, to abuse subjective terms. A slight glare, maybe that's the ESS hump people talk about.
@@navinadv I think there are better places to put your money if you’re looking to upgrade your system. Not that there aren’t better DACs but it really gets into diminishing returns at this level. I recently replaced a passive transformer based preamp with a used Pass Labs XP10. Now that was a noticeable upgrade.
Hi Randy. I don’t know if you respond to comments but here goes. I have been consuming a lot of your videos (great job!) I am looking at a starting amp/dac and from watching your stuff I am stuck between Douk Audio ST-01 PRO and S.M.S.L A300. I think I’m going to get the Sony speakers you always recommend. The system is for my pc and music streaming
check out my other channel www.youtube.com/@cheapwatchman_official
Enter to Win free hifi! subscribe, like, follow me instagram.com/cheapaudioman
and fill out this form forms.gle/w6qbPKGPFGUKiasX9
Intro graphics by johnvilardi.com
Support the Channel! Shop on Amazon amzn.to/3W8vsgK
Crutchfield shop-links.co/cguPK8XEGmt
Join the best hifi community out there! patreon.com/cheapaudioman
TRY ROON roonlabs.com/r/RTmYWdCP9kitqouBa5pcIw
Tidal Deal bit.ly/3siuqSF
Amazon Unlimited Music Trial amzn.to/3DRAVj9
Crutchfield shop-links.co/cguPK8XEGmt
Best Buy Deals shop-links.co/cf9yDZeYtUH
amzn.to/3GkNaop
CAM Store (New Products!) bit.ly/30Lgu4K
apos.audio?sca_ref=552340.TY98BPcZ6P
massdrop.7eer.net/qnOye5
Just in case somebody looking for a pure streamer like me stumbles upon this.
IT here. You are right and it is even worse: In the digital realm there is NO difference.
A streamers fetches digtial data from a digital source (Internet service or your own drive) and distributes it to a DAC which again transforms it into a audio signal. _This digital chain up to the DAC makes no difference as long it is 24 bit/92 Khz (or 16/48) in and the same amount of bits out. It cannot be more and if it is less the device is broken or faulty._ It is like a USB cable. You can proof or shield a digital cable against influences, so the digital stream is 100% provided. But you cannot make it better. But, see, each bit is being send several times, also checksums are being used, and these protocols make sure within miliseconds the data stream is correct and it is with ALL devices THE SAME if they are not completely crap. So there might be a low end side with crap from Alibaba but there is NO HIGH END side concerning the digital stream.
So no reason to invest too much except for features you need. Like search, App steering, interfaces, size, design etc.
But of cause sometimes DACs and preamps are being integrated in a streamer, so just another device in the chain with its own possibility of individual distortion (or character) AFTER the digital stream gets transformed into an anlogue signal and this is - another chance to make money.
So if you already got your DAC an Amp, just look for something that streams. And you can choose your music comfortably with it.
Law of Diminishing will apply to anything. I'm close to retirement so have to slow or cease in buying new stuff. Lucky I was able to purchase mid grade equipment and don't have excellent hearing anyway so I'm happy.
I agree, I wanted the look and function of the Hifi Rose streamer and then found out about the EverSolo DMP-A6 for less than half of its price. I bought one and then paired it with a Gustard R26 R2R Dac and absolutely love the combination for less! Fixed income sux, but I am quite pleased with my system now and have my end game ❤
No one ever said on their death bed. "I wish I'd saved more money"
@@fletchermunson6225unless they have kids my man
@@fletchermunson6225their kids did. 😂
@@mikelanier5617 . I may be wrong, but the r26 has a streamer built in...why would you buy a ever solo? I use roon and I think the r26 is roon compatible.
Ive been basically tweaking the same components for over two years and have achieved an amazing sound with the help of this and other channels. Ill share some of them now. Thanks Randy. This is one of a few systems that is mainly my "digital" setup.
1. Experiment with speaker placement: away from the walls, roughly 6' apart, towed in
2. Do your best to have no signal or power cables touching (bonus if you raise your speaker cables off the ground.)
3. Isolate everything if you can, even your amp (sub on washing machine pucks, cd player on pucks, amp on pucks etc.).
4. Get rid of your power conditioner and stick to the wall (amp/sub/dac) unless absolutely necessary.
5. If using a vintage amp, pick a sub with both high and low inputs so your speakers connect to your sub so that way your speakers handle only the highs/mids.
6. Place something heavy on top of your CD player. Trust me, this helps (this along with the washing machine pucks helps keep it as stable as possible.)
7. You dont need to go wild with cables. Stick to pro audio cables, as they offer the best sound for the lowest price (I use Japanese Oyaide cables, which are the standard for most DJ's in the scene).
8. Geshelli Labs JNOG2 (J2) - nuff said.
9. I use a laptop to stream (i7/12gbs ram). This is my preferred method of streaming, but it takes a massive amount of work to get it to sound its best. I will offer some of the many tweaks it takes to get it to sound its best:
a) Strip the laptop to its most bare bones, have nothing installed except what you use for music.
b) Install fidelizer (this will shut down most background processing, and keep only music programs running).
c) Install Equalizer APO (this will allow you to have a "preamp" which will improve the sound of your dac, by allowing you to set a -4db to your sound. It will also help with the issues Windows does to your sound). You need to shut off exclusive mode, but trust me it will sound good.
d) Numerous tweaks to your power settings located in your power management settings (USB settings to never shut off, processer to maximum settings, etc.) There are tons more, but youll need to experiment.
When all are implemented, your sound will improve - guaranteed.
Laptop is useless the screen polutes the sound
@@razzman2987 nah, im right, youre wrong.
Gotta love Randy. His output is almost non-stop and he tells it like it is. Presents in a style that all can comprehend and retains a sense of humour. Keep it coming, buddy.
Thanks, man. I really appreciate that.
Maybe he tells it like it isn’t? He certainly tells you what you want to hear.
For those who would like to actually know, yes they are all different. RUclips, Alpha Audio, Live Multitest - affordable (1000 Euro) streamers - Part Two!. You only need reasonably good headphones to listen and be able to hear the difference in sound form all of Alpha Audio live streams, just sit back and you will have your ears opened as to how different HiFi units are.
I would like to assist the guy who asked the first question of the day about bass and subwoofers. I am a head-fi guy, not a hi-fi guy, but I do have an 11.2 Dolby Atmos setup in my living room. All 11 speakers are M&K Loudspeakers which are mounted either on-wall or in-ceiling. I have two SVS subs - a large cylindrical sub and a medium-sized box sub. Just look 'em up online. The two subs are constructed very differently which is exactly the point. Controlling them with the app (which is great!) I can play a scene in a movie with one on and one of to hear the differences between the subs. The differences are how they complement one another. Together they provide deep, rich, full, window-shaking bass. So I say go for two subs and mix it up. Don't get two of the same.
As a computer engineer with 30 years working experience with digital systems I am genuinely intersted to understand how two digital streamers of the *same data stream* can possibly sound different. Unless I am missing something fundamental here, the ONLY sound difference can be when the digital stream is converted to analogue... i.e. in the DAC. I see comments here about hearing the difference in streamers so I am interested to hear how people think that works...
Yeah, even I'm genuinely curious to know and i was hoping somebody i.e. a more neutral party could explain it. Spotify sounds hugely better through my streamer - the Ifi Zen Stream than when played from my PC. When streamed from my PC to DAC, music sounds fine - till you make the switch to the Zen Stream and suddenly the mids become fuller, the treble becomes sharper and yet more refined and the bass sounds more substantial. All in all, it sounds like a huge improvement and even Helen Keller would be able to make out the difference. I've often contemplated whether its a Software trick?
I'm no expert, but my assumption would be that a streamer/source that has a higher quality, more stable data transfer to the DAC would have the potential to sound better than a source that may have some data loss or requires more error correction. Similar to a pristine CD compared to a lightly scratched disk. It might sound close enough to our ears, but the equipment is having to compensate for minor read errors. We only notice when it's bad enough to cause obvious issues.
@@darpanbhuyan1909 did you compared your PC using exclusive mode? Because windows do change the sound of a stream, also noisy USB ports, etc can have an impact. Still think a cheap external streamer is enough.
Higher quality output stage with lower jitter, better clocks, and linear power supply = higher quality audio. I have a wiim pro and an eversolo dmp-a6 master edition. Used as a streamer, the difference in audio quality is pretty big.
@@corrrect Do you notice differences in sound quality between the Wiim Pro and an Eversolo DMP-A6 Master Edition? I'm thinking about buying a streamer but I'm not sure which one to choose. Thanks
In 2010 I bought my first SONOS and have continued to invest in these products to have some background music everywhere in the house. I have always had a stereo system to listen carefully to music in detail. I currently have a CAMBRIDGE AUDIO CXA-81 amplifier, CXC CD player and CXN-V2 network player and KEF R500 floor standing speakers. I also connected the PORT from SONOS to my amplifier. This PORT is connected in 3 ways: Analog to the amplifier, digital coaxial to the CXN-V2 and via Toslinck optical to the CXA-81. So you can compare immediately. I get the best sound through the CXN-V2. It is also beautiful via the DAC of the CXA-81. But the analog signal from the PORT, which uses its own DAC, is of much lower quality. If I now compare the streamer of the CXN-V2 with the streamer of the SONOS (digitally connected of course), I notice no difference. Thank you for your nice reviews. Greetings from Belgium.
The room acoustics are more important than the equipment you purchase. ❤
From a purely technical standpoint, bit rates and depths being equal, the DAC and the type of streamer/DAC connection will determine if the streamer can influence the sound in the time domain (smearing). With Optical/Coaxial SPIDF connections, data is clocked at the streamer end and blindly transferred to the DAC; the streamer’s quality influences the sound. With a USB Audio Device Class 2 connection (possible since 2006) the DAC can control the data transfer pacing and can clock the data itself making it possible for a good DAC to eliminate smearing.
USB, though, introduces another issue that may or may not be addressed on the DAC depending on its quality: analog noise transfer from the streamer to the DAC. A good DAC will galvanically or otherwise isolate the USB connection to prevent noisy streamers from polluting the analog circuitry in the DAC. Without this isolation, the quality of the sound can again be determined by the streamer; a good streamer might internally isolate its noise from the USB but this become irrelevant when the isolation is implemented on a good DAC.
@lujiez Interesting rant… more folks will see it if you post it again out in the main comments for the video rather than in the reply thread for my comment.
Thank you for including us in your broadcast. Your hard work and great answers are always very helpful and appreciated. As an aside, listening and reading reviews can be helpful with the understanding that all reviews are subjective. Your advice to experience things for yourself is sound advice. 😂😂
I recently got a Bluesound Node X streamer that has an ESS Sabre DAC in it. I replaced a Wiim Pro with a Schiit Modi DAC attached to it. I generally like the sound of the ESS Sabre DAC (it's in the CA DacMagic 200 I have on my den system), and this Node X was an expensive unit, but I swear the Wiim Pro with the Schiit Modi sounded better to my ears. Also, I really don't care that much for the Bluesound app and much prefer the Wiim app. The Wiim with the Modi, or the Wiim with the SMSL SU-1 proves you don't have to spend a ton to get great sound.
Thats super interesting. Youve got me thinking as i was *this* close to getting a Node X.
@@eliotwilliams4279 I would never want to discourage you from getting a Node X. It's still a great piece - the headphone amp is terrific and for my vintage NAD system that it's connected to, it allows me to add a subwoofer to the system, and I connect my NAD CD player through the Node to use it's DAC. But as far as sound quality, to my ears there are less expensive options. I took the Wiim Pro and connected it to my family room system, and added the SMSL SU-1, and that combination sounds really good, and was probably $500 less than the Node X. Cheers - to whatever streaming solution you pick! 🙂
Well said and I am sure you are right. But still it is nice to outsmart our (mostly old) mens rationality to justify the fun of purchasing fancy but useless technostuff.
Streamers can make a noticeable difference imo. What made me realize this was a wiim mini vs a raspberry pi4(volumio) into a topping e50.
The raspberry pi was far superior in sound quality. In comparison, the wiim sounded loose, out of time, and the bass was a mess. The raspberry pi4 sounded clear, tight, and right.
My system was Tidal Connect to.....
Wiim optical out > E50
or
Raspberry pi 4 usb > E50
To
Rotel 1572 mkII > Klipsch Heresy IV > SVS SB3000
The issue is that the wiim has such a better user interface/experience compared to Volumio/etc. I eventually got the EverSolo DMP-A6 and am very happy.
Replaced my Bluesound Node with the EverSolo dmp-a6 and it was not a subtle change in my system. The EverSolo is not much more money and is better in overall sound quality, function and features. Plus, I have a nice 2TB SSD installed for local files. The Node is great on my head-fi stack and the Wiim Pro went to the patio system 👌
Internal Dac or external same dac for both?
@guystpierrecomposer Gustard R26 R2R Dac used on both, and I also tried out the internal dacs, EverSolo internal was much better than the Node to me. When I added the Gustard dac, it was just a jaw dropper to me, as if the performers were in my room and spaced perfectly and just fantastic tonality and timing for my old ears! The combo of EverSolo and Gustard was just better in all aspects, so that is how I listen now.
My concern with the Eversolo is the lifetime of that system, its basically running android right, whos to say the tidal app is supported on that device in 4 years?
I replaced my Bluesound Node with a DMP-A6. They were both running into a Chord Qutest DAC. After using the Eversolo for a few months, I don’t think the Eversolo sounds as good as the Node did. Unfortunately I sent my cousin the Node so now I’m trying to figure out what my next step is going to be. An Innuous Pulsar just popped up on TMR…
@eliotwilliams4279 I literally doubt I will live that long sadly. The Upnp plays great too though, so I would just run Roon or a 3rd party app like MediaConnect if needed. 👍
Great channel, always fun and informative. I just bought some floorstanding speakers (2 pairs), so I can remove the subwoofer in both rooms. I spend too much time tweaking the settings based on the different recordings, rather than enjoying the music, i just cannot leave it alone. In theory the low bass prescence will be reduced, but I'm enjoying listening to the music and not worrying about adjusting the bass levels. Simple can be more enjoyable, although recognise others might not agree, they might enjoy constantly adjusting things
Just added an external phono stage. Was using the internal phono stage on the amp I am using. Boom. More bass and deeper and wider soundstage. Love immediately getting that improvement. Will roll with this setup and upgrade the cart in a few months.
Which phono stage did u add?
@@legrandgroves8560 Musical Surrounding s Phonomena II+. Able to get it in a trade. it sounds fantastic.
For a long time I listened to a Bluesound Node into an aux DAC. I added the PD Creative linear power supply to it and I think the sound quality is probably satisfying to a vast amount of audiophiles with systems under $10k. I personally believe in doing the best you can on your source materials based on the "Garbage in/ garbage out" theory so I upgraded to an Auralic. Yes, I heard an improvement in balance, naturalness and musicality. How much? Not enough to justify the price for a lot of people I guess. Can I justify the price with diminishing returns being what they are? Probably not but the Auralic sounds great and its big trick is doing excellent wifi which I need. The trouble with audio is there is no going back once you hear something better. If someone wants to consider an Auralic or Lumin etc, look for used. Let someone else take the depreciation hit. Chasing the latest nuance in technology is expensive and you can get very close for half the money.
I did the same mod and ordered a BOTW power supply. It definitely made a difference
The real question is since it does make a good difference, why the heck doesn't Bluesound offer a linear power supply upgrade themselves? Many people are loathe to void their warranty digging around inside the Node to make changes. Not everyone was raised building Heathkits. They aren't going to risk screwing up their $600 Node or higher priced Node X.
More Sith Audio and Saturday speaker shootouts!!!! 😁 Yep, break out that card table. 😂
Great idea Randy, answering questions that make a difference in the enjoyment of this hobby. Thanks for all you do and you know the saying, find a job you love and you will never work a day in your life.
I fairly recently upgraded to a Schiit Freya + and a Schiit Bifrost 2 DAC. When I made this upgrade I was using a Sonos Connect streamer. I was satisfied with how the new equipment sounded with my older streamer utilizing the coax output. After watching your review of the WiiM Pro and how well it sounded and functioned I started considering an upgrade. For $150 I didn’t see how I could go wrong. Worst case scenario if I didn’t like it I could just send it back. I installed the WiiM Pro and used the coax output and same cable I used with the Sonia Connect. The difference in sound from the WiiM vs Sonos was unreal. Even my wife when walking through the room stopped and made a comment on how it sounded. I believe streamers CAN make a big difference when using the same downstream equipment. The great news is you don’t have to spend a ton of money. Hell my Sonos was double the cost of the WiiM Pro. Love your videos!
I keep it simple. Marantz 2500 paired with Klipsch Bells and a tablet streaming via wifi. Soon I'll add just one more item, a dac. I've heard good things about dacs. I have a Yamaha CD-1 that has a beautiful sound to it for the pursuit music. Otherwise, having too much in the audio stream can get messy.
I had the Bluesound Node 2i for quite a while and enjoyed it. Then I tried a Lumin U1 mini (open box but still spendy) and heard very worthwhile improvements in clarity/detail and, to my ears anyway, naturalness. Ran them both through the Denafrips Pontus II.
All mony go into research on streamin so every year there will improvements you can hear. Need this? No. Buy valves and get a away from transistor dead sound..🙂
There are very clear differences. The thing is that the matching is the thing. Don’t think that the expensive ones are best..
It’s mainly about soundstage improvements. The depth. And that’s what we enjoy? Bass performance can be an issue. They got a problem with this. The Ever Solo is leaning towards the bright side but with full control. I would never use it with a horn speaker from Klipsch or something like it. Spendor, yes. Soft upper goes fine with EverSolo I think. Old vintage speakers? Jepp..
@@theklipschcave3389 in my opinion they are getting worse than the minimalist allo digi one signature and pi2aes days. Streaming has peaked with upnp but some people want to spend money on all-in-ones which is like breaking the first rule of Hifi
Hi Randy. Yes all streamers might sound the same but there are other considerations besides how they sound such as how good their app is and different features they may or may not have. If I buy a more expensive streamer that doesn't necessarily mean I'm getting ripped off.
Have you tried Wiim streamers and their app? GREAT streamers and ditto apps don’t have to cost allot.
So you mean that the clocks in the more expensive streamers isn't better than the ones in cheap ones? I thought it was the clocks that made all the difference in a streamer.
@@sumsum2047 I fell for some of the propaganda that we get from reviewers. I have a Samsung monitor which I have connected via HDMI to an Nvidia Shield. The monitor has an analog audio out jack which I connected to my amplifier. And it sounded great but I thought well since they are saying that an external DAC will make it sound better I will get one. After all a good external DAC should sound better than the cheap internal DAC that my monitor uses right?
So I got an external DAC and connected the monitor's audio out to the DAC and then connected the DAC to my amp. But low and behold there is absolutely no way I could tell any difference in the sound quality. And I did a blind listening test with my friend and he couldn't tell the difference either. In fact he thought that bypassing the DAC and connecting the monitor directly to my amp actually sounded better. (Which probably isn't true either.) So I ended up sending the DAC back.
But having said that, if somebody wants to buy an expensive DAC and it makes them feel good to have it then more power to them. Some people like expensive stuff for the bragging rights. It's their hard-earned money and if that's what they want that's fine. Who am I to judge?
Going from my phone directly to the DAC via USB input or from the Wiim Pro via the Coax in to the DAC (Ifi Zen One Signature) the differences are minute. I was using the Amazon HD music app on both. I went back and forth several times and could not say which one is better.
Always enjoy your perspective and presenting concepts based on your experience and system(s). As a counterpoint, from someone that has tried many streamers and DACs, of all price points in a fairly pricy and revealing system, I’ll just say all streamers definitely do not sound the same. As you mentioned, depending on where you are with your own system, a streamer upgrade may not be the next logical step. However, the isolation of the output stage (hopefully NOT USB) and the quality of the power supply and especially clocks, do influence the quality of the sound. I’m upgrading from a Zen Mk3 to a Grimm MU1 as the difference in the quality of the sound justifies the cost in my system, to me.
There seems to be this race to the bottom on RUclips that is bothersome to me. It’s trendy to say spending more doesn’t yield better results or law of dimensioning returns says you should never spend more then XX on a DAC…. Well if someone wants to spend $10k for a 10% improvement in sound, it’s ok for them to do so, AND there is likely an improvement in what they hear. Or even perceive to hear and it’s true you can’t measure that, but who cares? This hobby, or journey as everyone seems to call it, but it is a hobby, os personal and there doesn’t need to be right and wrong.
I’m not a budget audiophile according to most of the gear reviewed here, but I have a budget. I enjoy Randy and your approach. I just wanted to present a different perspective.
I once had a pair of tower speakers and I was happy with the bass, I bought a sub knowing that I could return it if I didnt like the sound I was getting. Long story short I ended with two subwoofers at a lower volume but spreading the load; way happier than with the towers alone and I thought I has happy enough lol!
Since you have the Emotiva amps and their new XDA-3 dac, you can switch between the 2 optical inputs easily and compare 2 different streamers using the same dac, amps, and speakers.
Good call (assuming he does in fact get to hold on to those)
I haven’t fully tested but I think using wooden speaker stands or (floor standers) make your speakers sound warmer and less sibilant than metal stands. The moment I took my speakers off these solid wood chairs, and into these metallic tube stands, the speakers just sounded hollow even though the stands had some pretty thick isolation pads
Listening here in France. Keep up the good work. Have made a few purchases from your advice. I'm on a new journey after a lot of years. Enjoying the music more. Now have a few old new items!!! from Cambridge Audio, NAD at the old end to SMSL Fosi new end...
Love that the comedy is coming back. I always love the sponsors, between two speakers, etc! :)
More to come!
@@cheapaudioman
OG CheapAudioman- really liked the notes on a notebook :)
Just woke up look :)
The little creatures, faux sponsors, thermos, nitty gritty vibe :)
Satire :)
I do like the space suit dude now.
Maybe “Throwback Tuesdays” :). Sponsored by audiophile pizza, makes the songs feel like you’re 18 again :)
There is an interest in how streamers of different quality sound on external dacs.
With a good preamp, Saga for instance you can A/B with same amp and speakers, maybe same dac. Just use different dac inputs then swap inputs to see if your impressions hold up.
Tweaks on WiiM Pro optical output make a substantial improvement in sound Quality using Amazon HD as a source. I picked up a WiiM Pro from your link and reviews. It sounded like it’s price in my system until I upgraded the optical cable to a glass fiber cable, helped with more clarity and images bass a bit. Then plugged that cable into an iFi spdif iPurifier 2 with an iFi iPower X power supply, going into my Metrum Octave dac, then this WiiM Pro started to be rewarding to listen to for me. Much more audiophile sound quality.
Good to know how these things perform as is, and with helpful tweaks. I think you can still be money ahead with the WiiM Pro with tweaks for the performance level.
About enjoying what you do: it shows. There’s a lot of audio channels on yt but you are the one who seems to not be “doing content creation” but rather talking about what you like. I have nothing bad to say to say about the likes of Andrew Robinson or John Darko, but your delivery (and pricing!) enervate you above them. I love your laid back way of talking about stuff. Like visiting the strange uncle I’ve never had.
The only thing I do t like are the generic thumbs.
The best way to find out if a streamer is also a good dac is to test the distortion coming from the optical channel versus the analog output. The Wiim mini is a good streamer with a lousy DAC and even worse ADC. The Audio science review site has the measurements.
I've tried around 8 or 9 different streamers, used as a digital transport only...same dac each time. Honestly im more of an objective guy, and was always of the mindset that a digital signal is just that, and one should hear no difference. For the most part i find this to be true, but i have noticed some do have differences..like darker background, which gives me the perception of better dynamics and instrument separation. So i dk. The other thing one may notice, if you dont hear a sonic difference between digital transports is the presentation between the speakers. Vocals being more forward, drums further back, things of that nature. So while science tells me they are all just one's and zero's, my subjective side of the brain can notice a difference between a couple models. Subtle differences. And im sure there is a reason for the differences..maybe the output used (optical/coaxial/USB) but still a difference. I understand my comment is open for scrutiny, the whole proper AB testing and what not. Comparing 2 streamers off the same dac at the same time has issues..level matching can be off, using 2 different type input/outputs. But even if one said they cant hear the difference, sometimes the imaging and soundstage differences can be more noticable. Even with everything ive said about my experiences, for the most part most budget or midfi streamers sound the same. Just my opinion.
The rest of your system and it's ability to resolve those differences is very real. I've done high end DAC experiments on some systems where you don't get much difference between the built-in DAC of something like a Bluesound NODE and a $3k external DAC. But then transport that experiment to another system and it's night and day. Preamp amp speakers. As you climb the ladder, the DAC differences will make significant impact overall
@@erics.4113 My experience too... Folks laugh at me, but I have settled on the WiiM Pro via digital coax out to a PS Audio GainCell DAC/Preamp and use with a vintage Sansui 4000 receiver. I have other more expensive streamers... The WiiM Pro simply suits my taste compared to the more expensive offerings I own, and have owned.
My buddy too, he has the EverSolo streamer, and I turned him on to the WiiM Pro, he loves it, and is kind of bummed about the EverSolo and the monies spent. But, he said he will keep the ES for the VU Meters... He is using the GainCell DAC/Pre also, as he is the one that turned me on to them.
It is the EQ in the WiiM units, that to my mind, blow away the more expensive competition.
It’s not just about ones and twos its also about the strength of the antennas that can receive the Wi-Fi from a good distance from the router without any glitches, so you do really get what you pay for. 😊
@@Gadgetdad007Not everyone uses wifi... Hard wired here.
Same here. Always hardwire.
Wiim Pro
Randy nails it with an under-appreciated, underemphasized comment: “Streamers might make a difference if your gear is good enough.”
I’ve absolutely found this to be true on my friend’s system (Wilson Alexia, Dan Dagostino) when he upgraded from a Roon Nucleus to a Taiko computer that costs more than my car. Huge difference in space, shape, and weight.
Ok, those devices aren’t exactly streamers (both input into a dCS Rossini, which has a streamer built in) but the principle sounds the same, in that they’re all-digital and way upstream in “how on earth does this make a difference?”territory.
11 minutes “intro” and two minutes about the topic named in the title?!
Also thanks for the review on Left Q350, just picked up a pair with just 2 hrs run in for £300. Great review 👍
Thanks for answering my question. Heading downstairs to listen to my vintage Advents vs the ELAC 6.2 to see which is more "forward" and "bright" 🤙🤙
Even $500k speakers can use subs effectively. If you are going to get a sub, always get at least 2 if not more. When you create a stack of REL subs (6 for example) each sub can be adjusted differently which increases the subs effectiveness. If you want to go cheap, then get a Bose system, anything else, invest in your room (treatments), then gear and concentrate on synergy
I run the OG Wiim Pro with a Topping E50 DAC and a Lokius …so I’m good .
Not everything has to be expensive AF ..sometimes you just gotta be a bit creative.
Great video ☕️☕️👍
You don’t need two DACs and speakers to compare the sound of two streamers. You just need someone else to do the switching, randomly and blind to you, while you record which is which and other perceptions by ear. 10 samples minimum. Easy.
Great discussion. My 2cents worth! On the Subwoofer piece. Even though my “tower” speakers have awesome bass the addition of a sub woofer somewhat shakes the room so you can “feel” as well as hear the bass! In terms of streamers - I’ve tried a few options. Have a pretty high end system and I think the WiiM pro is about as good as anything I’ve tried. However I generally will say CD is still “sonically” (to my ears) better than streaming.
One thing to note when it comes to subs, if you are running passive tower speakers ‘full-range’ you better have one hell of am amplifier in order to push (depending on your listening distance (MLP:Speaker distance)) the low frequencies to high levels (admittedly I listen at damn near reference level) without a fair amount of distortion. Low frequencies require much (I emphasize the term ‘much’) more power to drive than high(er) frequencies. Just another reason to purchase externally powered/active subwoofers (or better yet, DIY them yourself)
Nice work as always.
Regarding streamers...
IMO streamers have less variables to consider...wattage, amperage etc.. So, if the stats are the same (bit/kHz), and since digital signals are 0's and 1's...then they should be the same regardless of price? What about the quality of internal components though? wiring, circuits, chips, etc.
Some mentors have also said your sound is only as good as your source or what is upstream in your system... e.g. if you have the best speakers in the world but a crappy amp...the speakers likely will sound crappy. Using that line of thinking...the streamer is the very first link in your chain, or spring in your river,...so should you make sure it is of high quality? Maybe...or maybe not (see above)?
Expensive streamers have an even greater impact on the sound than Dac's do. I know that sounds weird and i didn't believe it either but as i am going up the latter im realizing it more and more. Try an Antipodes K50 or a grimm mu1 and you'll pickup your jaw from the floor. And one has to remember that the 0's and 1's don't travel by magic to the DAC, they need a lift and that lift is an" analogue square wave" . Thats where the streamer comes in. That square wave, when you look at it in time through an oscilloscope, is never square, its distorted in shape when affected by noise, electric and magnetic interference, bandwith and even the sample rate used. The more the sample rate goes up the harder it is for the computer to deal with it and you distort the wave and change the sound. You need a super fast piece to deal with the calculations. The quality of the work done by the streamer lessens the job of the DAC at removing noise and activating voltages rails to deal with packet errors, ( that's why companies use discrete components and different voltage rails with their own power supplies inside the good stuff) so your DAC gets to sound even better then it should. That is surely what i am experiencing. I went the antipodes way because of their R&D on making digital sound more like vinyl or analogue and to give you an idea, i just changed the power supply on my S30( because im not rich enough for a K50) from a renoun Ferrum Hypsos, super good PS to an Antipodes S60 that i got at half price and just that effect completely changed my sound. It had the effect of changing a small amp to an Emotiva DR2 kind of change. I couldn't believe it! And that's just the power supply for the streamer, thats not even a K50 so yes, a streamer has a gigantic effect on the sound but you only get how much as you go up the latter. I used to believe they we're only 0's and 1's but that's not the right question. The right question is :" How do these binary numbers travel to the DAC?" Started with a 1000$ Project streamer to a 400$ project DAC and i could hear it. Then the Auralic G2.1 at a friend's house( huge difference) then my antipodes( even bigger difference). Audio emptys your pockets if you have a good ear. That's just the truth. You either accept it or not. For those who don't believe me , go try
One at an audiophiles house who's got a great system. Its undeniable! And if you think people like to spend that's rudiculous. Everybody wants to spend as little as possible. There are some who don't know what to do with their money but these are rare. Most audiophiles simply want to get the best possible sound for the money like everybody else. The problem is that you can't unhear what you've heard. That's the problem. I've got an old jetta as a car. Im not rich, but ive got very good ears. So i put everything in my sound system because great sound brings me great pleasure like any other passion, its not reasonable but more like a drug. High quality sound can have that effect. And that's what audiophiles are, legal drug addicts...
This is pure bunk. But, it's your money to waste
@@dan-qe1tb it's always fascinating to see that after a long ,scientifically updated answer, corroborated by real specialist's, that there are always some who, with no knowledge of the subject and without specifying which part of the answer they're having trouble understanding , will just resort to " Homer Simpson" replies without even trying to send the blood up to the thinking part of the body. Its just amazing, but not in a great way. You know, the other kind...
@@philippelabrecque6658 Mr. Siau at Benchmark (the electrical engineer who had engineered my DAC), would be shocked at some of the claims Mr. Jenkins had made. I wouldn't even pay $2000 for your unit. Who at Stereophile tried to say a signal can be digital and analog at the same time? Who said that a square wave could ever be compared to a sine wave, or real world music which is neither of those? There are many things that can be measured, that aren't audible. There are well implemented and poorly implemented clocks at many price points. In modern designs, the tolerance for error in both the DAC's power source, and the digital source that feeds it, is considerable. The amount of data available in the source is fixed, no matter how many bits the words drawn from it consist of, or how often you sample it. My DAC doesn't care about my Flex's 32 bit, 96 kHz native spec; there's a SRC ahead of the chip that frames it how it wants. That is true of most any DAC. Your ear can't detect lower than 3% THD at 1.8 kHz (and what's detectable rises below there), and yet some marketing people or reviewers may say that the 128 db S/N ratio of my DAC is a big deal, despite the poor relation of this spec, to real world music.
@@dan-qe1tb Again, you're speculating while I'm experiencing it live, in real life. That's the difference buddy. I don't like to spend for this stuff. I only do once im convinced it makes a difference , that means: i hear it. If i didn't i wouldn't buy. Have you taken the time to read on guy's who just swap capacitors on audio circuits? They test every capacitors one by one and listen for changes .from 50cent to 800$ capacitors. They give detailed analysic of their findings and none of them sounds the same except on the low level. Once you go up a bit there are dramatic changes. I can detect Mundorf capacitors in a component pretty much every time im exposed to them . They have a specific sound that i recognize. Don't make hypotheses, experiment. Theory is just that, theory. Experiencing is real. When we're 8 audiophiles in a room and we swap out components or cables or even diffusers, everybody hears the same thing but to a different degree. But they all hear the change and they're not always subtle.
The difference is imagined not real if the new equipment can't be picked as superior reliably in a double blind listening test in standard A/B/X fashion with somebody else doing the switching
The 12 inch polk audio hts sub. Is a banger and looks 👍
I have three different streaming solutions attached to my SMSL SU9-pro, Node N130, Chromecast Audio and a Wiim Pro.
With my back turned, my partner manning the remote and the same file from the same service
I can barely tell any difference, let alone which is which.
If you have Node X money.....buy a Wiim Pro and a $600 DAC.... it'll sound way better
Tried an experiment recently. I had changed some components of my digital front end, so I decided to go back to using a disc spinner instead of a streamer (which was playing WAV files of my CDs). I used on old Sony ES9000. I was surprised. The Sony, actually playing CDs, had more punch and liveliness, it was clearly noticeable. Unfortunately, it also had some aggressive grain esp. in the treble region, that I just could not put up with long-term.
So the streamer was nicer, smoother, but did lack just a bit of that punchy sound. So now I guess my unresolved question would be, do I have to go back to a disc spinner again, or are there any streamers that do supply that extra quality? Who knows.
@cheapaudioman would love to get your input on Entry level audiophile gear. Looking at getting rid of my low/mid fi seperates and going with Integrated McIntosh like MA252
Thanks for your work, Randy. Your channel content is great!
I might agree, had I not noticed that any change on the power supply (adding ifi’s DC purifier to the original SMPS, replacing the smps with a lin one, add other filters.. USB cable, even the internet: wifi vs ethernet, switches etc) changes the SQ.
Love it Randy! You rock. Can’t wait to see that funny 😁🎶
Here my experience.
I try to avoid the rabbit hole but...
I started out purchasing a blusound powernode, Tekton Pendragon speakers and audio lab t6000 cd transport. Sounded good for a beginner like me.
Then I saw denafrips Ares ii. I purchased that to replace the dac in the powernode. I gave my powernode to my son and I purchased a blusound node and purchased a peachtree Nova 300. There was improvement. Then I replaced my cd transport to a Jay's Audio cdii- mkiii. There's an improvement. Then I replaced the denafrips Ares ii with a denafrips Pontus II. Again improvement. But my streaming was just ok. Something was missing. So I replaced the power supply in the the node to a external linear PS...LHY and wow. $279 and the change was significant.
That to me is not a rabbit hole but necessary changes. Now I'm $10,000.00 into it. A lot of money but I'm in my 60s and can afford it. I'm satisfied. That being said there's more I want to do.
But as fir the streamer? If you have a blusound node change the power supply. It's pretty easy. No soldering. The kits have everything you need. Just make sure you get the right one. I don't know why but it gave more clarity, body, separation and improved dynamics. I was surprised. So i do think improved components improve sound.
Did I mention this on another of your videos? But- I really enjoy your videos. Few things I can seriously criticize.
Btw- I’m retired USN 1987-2007, followed by another 10 years working as a civilian with Corps of Engineers.. retired early. You had said you were USN as well.. on the nuke side ?
Take care
David
Love your channel and your success on youtube. My entertainment center is driven by my Sony STR-AZ5000ES which I guess is a level higher than most of what you do on your channel but I still love your technical reviews and commentary.
Thanks! Appreciate you watching
Randy you are right, the "law of diminishing returns" is what expensive streamers are all about. I had a few very expensive ones and always come back to the Bluesound Node. It's more important to have a good quality DAC. Any one who says anything different is well..................... (IMHO)!!
So, I was curious if I could hear any differences between 2 streamers: IFI Stream vs WiiM Pro. I listened to the same HiRes recordings from Qobuz. I have the IFI connected via USB and WiiM connected via Coax to a Topping E50 DAC. I heard maybe a slight difference, dare an improvement in "air" and "depth" with the USB connection. It was an extremely small difference and definitely subjective. WiiM is a game changer as it offers the best value, great customer support, an excellent app and sounds awesome. I have a pair of 30 year old Boston HD5V speakers connected to a WiiM Mini and Fosi Audio TD10, and wow! Though, it's kinda fun as an aging audiophile to still be able to hear or imagine differences. Cheapaudioman is fantastic and a joy to watch. I'm blown away as to how affordable great hifi is today.
so if i want to buy stremer which do you recemend beetwen the 2?
Hi Randy,
Your channel rocks. Been a music fan for a long time, but bought a midrange Marantz Atmos AVR and 7.4.1 mid-priced wall-mounted speakers and recently picked up a WiiM. I don’t have the space or $$$ to invest in a separate, full-blown integrated receiver and speakers for stereo listening but want to maximize the quality of my existing setup at a lower cost. As the Cheap Audio Guy, any recommendations on what to do, as in (a) replacing the LCR speakers to ones that can do double duty (any speaker recommendations); (b) connecting a Fosi or other lower priced amp to the Zone 2 and using that to drive a separate set of “stereo speakers” in the same room (any speaker recommendations); (c) sell it all and start over; (d) pour some whiskey, and just plug in some in headphones; or (e) pour another whiskey and convince myself that AVRs sound as good as integrated amps?
When purchasing music I sample tracks by streaming. After downloading my music and playing it from my Mac Mini server it sounds much better. I think streaming is only good for sampling and casual listening on my Atexa Ball.
Thanks Randy
Do try a subtower just behind your listening point. Just by used smaller subs. Don’t buy expensive stuff.
Adjust manually. After a while you land the level which you like. 70 % bass on the front, 30 % on the tower behind you. Anyone tried this out?
I've just put together a vintage system that sounds great to me, but I was streaming Tidal off my P.C, via a Fiio DAC, and it didn't sound special. I've added a Wiim Pro Plus and I'm blown away. So presumably there is a difference in streamers- both my P.C, and now the Wiim, are receiving the same signal initially? Surely cheaper gear is noisier etc? I might add I know little about audio, just that spending $750 on my (used) gear was ear-opening. I'm not going to get sucked into the diminishing returns I see in audio though- not aged sixty- something!
Thanks for good videos, subbed.
Hi, i watch alot of your videos, feel im going round in circles trying to find the right system lol. Can you suggest? Im after a system that can play cds, hook up to record player and links to the internet radio as there is zero signal where i live I was looking at the Ruark r3 (i cant afford the r410) or denon rcd-n12dab which is about £600 here in the UK. I have listened to the Ruark in a shop and it was pretty amazing sound quality but still unsure. Would you be able to suggest? :) sadly finance is tight so looking under 1000. Many thanks again!
Well said sir. This is good stuff! Can't stand watches on my wrist. I'm a working man(not a slight towards office folks) . Time is an illusion anyways. A social construct if you will.
I don’t have too much experience with streamers except for Blue sound OS, Sonos, and PI/Volumio. Setting aside the DAC portion, my guess is sonic differences are likely to be hard to determine as you mention. Personally, I think it comes down to the user preference for interfacing with the streaming device often in an app that is more important to the overall musical experience rather than minor sonic differences. Thanks Randy for sharing your content in a fun way!
I’ve heard a difference between my Bluesound node and my silent Angel streamer.
I’ve heard an even bigger difference when I added separate network switch in between my router and my streamer.
Yes, digital signal is digital.
Otherwise, you're gonna have to get golden cables all the way to your internet service provider and all the way to the computer where your favorite artist has stored the digital mastered file
I installed a $50 Netgear GS108eV3 network switch, it has been tested by the guys over at Alpha-Audio in a newtork switch shootout in regards to filtering capability. It really made both a visual and audio difference in my system. Folks in the house noticed the improvements immediately, even asking if I had purchased a new TV.
@@michaelwright1602I don't understand how that can improve quality unless it replaced a malfunctioning piece of equipment.
A home network switch is at the end of a massively complex line that winds its way through hundreds of miles of cabling and countless routers, servers, and other pieces of backbone network equipment. Not to mention I thought network protocols had error checking/correcting built in. It just doesn't make sense to me when scrutinized but then again I'm not a network or computer engineer.
@@spamcan9208these are good reasons to store your music locally.
I have an Emotiva DAC and Dr1's on the way. Patreon gold. I'm hoping for advice on streaming, ROON, etc. .
I'm hoping for advice on where and how I can get solid advice on good choices to feed the new equipment?
Well, Sub's increase or have the ability to increase the perception of space. You can, if you're slightly handy, build your own Bass traps. And if it makes you smile then unless you hear something that out shines what you've been happy with then you've succeeded.
Randy, curious on your opinion to use a Apple AirPort Express last generation to stream Apple Music optical to my DAC? I had the AirPort Express laying around and it works great, it’s limited to 16 44.1k like all airplay 2 streamers but if I want to go high res I hook up the iPad Pro to USB C to the DAC for up to 24 192k. It was a free streamer for me, but the Pangea optical cable cost me $50.
Regarding the need of subwoofer for music listening, it depends on the main speakers' bass response and the type of music. Pipe organ and synthesizers can plays very deep, but electric and acoustic bass (and kick drum) don't play below 41Hz - that's open E with standard tuning. So if your music does not go below 41Hz, and your speakers' frequency response is not below -3dB at 41Hz, then a subwoofer won't be necessary. And bass doesn't hit 41Hz often, especially with electric bass as musicians don't like to play open strings especially E because they sound sloppy.
I agree on the streamers Randy. It gets really difficult to sus out the difference between a CD and the lossless streaming of it with reqlly good wireless connections, decent DAC’s, and just a WiiM as the streamer, unless the amps and speakers and DAC’s are $$$, which is out of league for most of us regular folk. As long as I keep enjoying my music, I don’t think the difference is worth that kind of investment to stream, especially with the variation in performance of wireless infrastructure around here. At least I’ve learned what the shades of difference are sonically in that regard. In a word, also subtle. I do resort to streaming when I want to hear music out of my collection, and it’s certainly enjoyable with only a WiiM streamer. I feel that I may be able to get a subtle improvement from a $500 standalone streamer, but I don’t want to spend that to find out. I did experiments with a few optical cables, and one of them was best, but not that expensive. It turns out that your mileage can vary with different optical cables, but it’s a matter of finding the right $10-$15 one, not spending $100. All inexpensive optical cables are NOT created equal.
If you're just talking about streaming digital data, there's no difference between streamers. You get the same number of bits in the same order regardless of which wi-fi or wired streamer you use, and the cable type doesn't matter either. All such devices are trivially capable of transmitting lossless audio streams perfectly these days, unless there's an actual flaw in the equipment. The only exception is Bluetooth streaming, which doesn't have the bandwidth for lossless audio.
@@EnglishMike well, you just touched on what the debate is all about.. there’s this presumption that things like clocks and whatever circuitry streamers are composed of, i.e. different components, power supplies and whatever all have a quality level associated with them, and there’s a thought that the streamer has to “cost” a certain percentage of a DAC to be somewhat in line with it in terms of a quality matchup, so …
I know what you’re saying but there’s a debate about that, so that’s your opinion .. I don’t know where I stand on the issue, but I think I’m kind of in there with Randy on the issue.
@@EnglishMikeI suggest you first of all start testing different equipment. Differences from everything from Power cables, plugs, vs players(just 0-1's in the end), speaker cables, optical cables, coax +++ is very noticeable.
@@wegardfjeld3789 Double blind ABX testing says otherwise which is probably why audiophiles are so averse to it. I'd wager that nobody can reliably tell the difference between, say, a $5 speaker cable and a $500 speaker cable (i.e. significantly better than chance) no matter how many audiophiles you test.
But I accept that I'm stepping into a hornet's nest here, so I will happily leave it there, even if you feel the need to reply.
Maybe. Maybe _transporters_ all sound the same. But you have to consider the software (mobile app) that comes with it. And the capabilities of the unit to load music in a seamless and efficient way. Either from an online service or from a local NAS or just a USB connected drive. It sounds simple, but there are many considerations.
I'm currently streaming Tidal on my Google TV connected to my AVR via HDMI eArc.
Is the difference noticeable if I get a dedicated music streamer like eversolo compared to TV streaming via HDMI eArc or streaming on my AVR?
Just bought some Kef Q150 , best imaging even just as good as B&W 7000 towers.
Thanks for all you do, Randy. If I can suggest a couple of Duke Ellington albums from 1959ish to sample: Jazz Party (sometimes Jazz Party in Stereo) and Blues in Orbit. They're both compilations so the song mix varies. They both sound great - recorded in the same Columbia church studio as lots of Miles and Sinatra. In any event, if you try them casually you might find something to dig in to, or just enjoy.
I am curious about the right-hand poster in the background. It looks familiar, but I cannot quite place the band logo & cover art.
On the topic of streamer audio quality, I agree with your take on not worrying about it, at the very least rank it below the actual software because thats more likely to determine how much you enjoy and actually use your streamer.
Completely agree, brother
@@cheapaudioman I heard Hulk Hogan while I read this
I think doing blind test on the channel, especially with a microphone so you can share the recordings with us (blind) would be amazing!
He won’t torch his own channel like that.
Have you ever tried using an iFi iPower on one of your Wiim devices? Made a big difference for me. Could be an interesting idea for a video.
Could you specify the iFi item? Thanks in advance :-)
@@intrinsicfreedom I’m using the iFi iPower 2 (5 volt), it’s $69 on Amazon.
Interested with this, but are you using the internal DAC of the wiim (ie feeding an Amp from the wiim's line out) or using the digital out of the wiim?. And which power adapter are you comparing it with? Am using a spare iPad power adapter and the digital out of the wiim so am not sure if there is going to be any significant improvement for me, thanks...
@@rusco88I’m using an external dac, so digital out. I was just using whatever stock plug that came with the wiim before. Your mileage may vary depending on your room and equipment, but I’ve noticed a blacker background, deeper bass and overall more dynamic sound with the iFi supply. It’s more apparent in my living room than in my second system, which is in a smaller, more enclosed area.
@@100popsongs thanks for the reply
Each streamer has different audio architecture and that highly influence how zeros and ones are going to be rendered before they are sent to DAC. Also interface output integration: coaxial, I2S, AES/EBU - some streamers can send reduced clock jitter, clean, high quality signals, and some of them don't - it all depends on price of components integrated into that streamer.
“…how zeros and ones are going to be rendered….before the DAC”???????
Do I still need a pair.....of subweoofers? lol You are a good!
Went thru the sub arc. Had good tower speakers, didn't feel the need for a sub. Started following a rock band, Fan comments suggested I was missing out on the low end. Added a sub and they were right, Uneven room dispersion led me to a second sub. Happy.
I miss audiophile water. And all the audiophile sponsors you never had
I had a question about 2.1 speakers. Now, 2.1 has mostly been associated with affordable computer speakers. However, a good argument could be made in favor of 2.1 being a better design than 2.0 as far as booksheslf/stand-mount speakers are concerned, both in terms of convenience of use (lighter-smaller satellite on stand, big-heavy sub on floor), and freedom of design (size of the speaker/satellite not being too much of a design constraint). Why then do we not see too many (if any at all) high end 2.1s?
Streamer wise, I bought an old Mac mini in perfect order, dropped in an SSD connected to a DAC via usb. I also have the option to stream bit- perfect using Audirvana, otherwise Spotify, sounds great. Mac mini overall cost £80 👍
I’ve heard of a crazy Mac mini setup running off of battery power. Owner swears by it
Still using the discontinued Chromecast Audio because it just works so well with RUclips Music. I keep trying to find a replacement, but I end up deciding there's no reason to right now.
I'm just starting to explore modern stereo systems. I'm still confused about how a streamer works. Is it connecting to my phone via bluetooth? Isn't bluetooth a not very high audio quality connection? Also, if I have a bunch of music (both CD and downloads) digitized to a computer wouldn't it be better to get a high quality audio card (with a good DAC chipset) and run that into an amp via analog RCA?
You can stream music two ways:
1) You can stream via a streaming service app on your phone (like Apple Music, Qobuz, Tidal, etc) and send that signal to a streamer that's connected to your stereo.
2) You can buy a streamer that streams DIRECTLY from the service (*your phone not involved).
Sorry, I didn't address the computer thing.
While I'm new to this, too, from what I gather you're going to have two options for incorporating your music into this system:
1) Raspberry Pi. This is open source and free but it takes some setting up. (This means watching a lot of videos and likely preparing to yell a lot.)
2) Roon. This is a proprietary software and something like $15 mo. Works out of the box, but you're basically paying to rent your own music. (I think I got that line from Randy, but I'm not sure.)
-------------------------------
Option 1 above: If you've got the temperament for setting up new software, my suggestion is that you build a small Raspberry Pi streamer (instructions are all over RUclips), then put your music on an external hard drive, and then connect that hard drive to the Raspberry Pi streamer, and then play music! Also, I'm pretty sure there's a phone app for this streamer.
Option 2 above: Buy a Roon-ready streamer, plug in your hard drive of music, and go with that.
-------------------------------
Whichever of the two options you use above, you'll be able to stream using whatever service you want (except for Apple Music. Again, no that doesn't make any sense to any of us. Blame Apple.) And you'll be able to access your own music.
I’m curious about using a streamer as is always referenced. Doesn’t using an iPad with Apple Music and AirPlay accomplish this?
Very interested to know more about the problems with your Topping amp. Your report dovetails with user reports about the PA5.
It is strange that today in 2023, many large, even fairly expensive, speakers roll off at 50Hz. My vintage ADS L520 (8" woofer, 1" tweeter) dig all the way to 35Hz. I don't get it. Why? Looking at getting some new JBL L100 Classics as my "end game" speakers, and guess what, I will need a subwoofer because they roll off at 40Hz. Crazy. Thank goodness for SVS or REL giving us that last octave.
I love Rotel . I have the 1592 MKII paired to Polk R700s . For me this is end game . I can live with this forever .
If you stream bit perfect to a DAC and yes, the WiiM Pro streams bit perfect, perfect is perfect. There is no better than perfect. Soooo, WiiM Pro or million dollar streamer sending a bit perfect signal to the same DAC will sound the same. To say different pays homage to humans ability to hear things that are not there-which we’re all capable of.
Have you found anything cheaper than the Wiim ($90) to stream both Airplay 2 or bluetooth? I'm on iphone so a belkin connect would be fine for AP2, but my dad needs android streaming so bluetooth has to be on it also.
I use a Wiim pro ahead of a Berkeley Alpha DAC and another in front of a Topping D70. They’re both pricey setups. One with a Pass Labs Pre, a T+A amp and Harbeth speakers. About $20k of stuff and I l don’t feel I’m missing out. There’s a $11k SACD player sitting unused (EMM Labs, bought used quite cheaply though… ridiculously overpriced ). I stream Qobuz. I’ve played with HiFi Rose and Weiss stuff. Really nice and great interface but the title Wiim just does what I need it to do. The only screen I want is my iPad controller and I just pick out albums on Qobuz anyway. Anyway my point is the little Wiim can fit right in.
How does the Topping compare with the Berkeley?
@@navinadv They're not that far apart. I wouldn't even say one is better than the other, they're just very-slightly different sounding and I might prefer the Topping. The Berkeley (mine is first gen) is from about 2008 so getting up in years. The Topping is a really nice DAC. I had a BMC of some sort before the Topping that had a Sabre dac/chip in it and I didn't care for it. The sound had a weird false shimmer to it, to abuse subjective terms. A slight glare, maybe that's the ESS hump people talk about.
@@TheFibtastic thanks. I have the Topping D70s and was wondering and upgrade is worth it.
@@navinadv I think there are better places to put your money if you’re looking to upgrade your system. Not that there aren’t better DACs but it really gets into diminishing returns at this level. I recently replaced a passive transformer based preamp with a used Pass Labs XP10. Now that was a noticeable upgrade.
If a streamer is a digital signal, would it matter to the dac where the 1's
& 0's came from?
$1,000 speakers with a $700 amp sounds the best! W/sub
I am waiting for a proper valve streamer unit. Control in the highs and perhaps a detailed bass?
Prima Luna streamer I think..😋
Would you be able to review some outdoor speakers like
Bose-FreeSpace-360P-II-outdoor-speaker ?
Hi Randy. I don’t know if you respond to comments but here goes. I have been consuming a lot of your videos (great job!) I am looking at a starting amp/dac and from watching your stuff I am stuck between Douk Audio ST-01 PRO and S.M.S.L A300. I think I’m going to get the Sony speakers you always recommend. The system is for my pc and music streaming
I’d go with the SMSL AL200 actually. It’s spectacular for the price. About $250 if I remember correctly
You also mention the S.M.S.L DA-9 in your comments. Is that newer or older than the AL200 @@cheapaudioman