Thanks Paul. This is the question I have been trying to get the answer to for some time. No one else bothers to answer it. You gave me everything that I need to know. Sounds like the streamer would be a nice addition.
@John Gladwaller yeah. I thought exactly the same thing at the end of this one. I love Paul’s videos but he didn’t seem to clearly answer the question. Seemed to say only get a streamer if you want the functionality of using Roon Software on a Mac mini which doesn’t require a dedicated streamer. But I suppose a Roon endpoint is a dedicated streamer (or streaming active speaker). I am confused 🤷🏼♂️
Great advice. Another pro and con with commercial streamer is it will eliminate the need to know any technical aspect of music playback. It is an appliance like a fridge or a TV. Turn it on and it works. The con is it is expensive and instantly obsolete. There is nothing supplied in streamer that you can't do on your own using almost free technology. I evolved my streaming from Win to Linux on laptops to now a Rpi running Linux optimized for music. The Rpi is a little computer which costs $50. Access music from a NAS device $100 which sits on your home network or get music from the net. If your DAC does not have it's own clock, then you need to add a reclocking/isolation device to the Rpi. Control your system from your chair using your phone via wifi. I run MPDroid on my Samsung phone. $150 in hardware. Software is free. There are lot's of groups providing bit perfect software. Always up to date. It can be as simple or complex as you want.
Denefrips are well reviewed DACs. I wish PS Audio streamers allowed more choices of sources, i.e Pandora ( we know about its bit rate), Roon, Amazon HD
@@curljam4373 Denafrips is made in China, PS audio in USA so obviously, the cost of the build advantages Denafrips in a very big way. Both companies produce very good products, however, Denafrips offers higher value for the money. As for the sound signature, YMMV. As with any HIFI, t needs to be compared in the same room with the same system, otherwise there are too many variables to muck up your judgement.
Paul, Every time I watch your videos, I'm doing things right. I "Stream" RUclips music with a $100 tablet via USB [192k] to my DAC. The sound Quality is beyond my dreams. Best, D. From Stl.
Good way to jump into streaming. Can bring up all of your music subscriptions, internet radio stations, podcasts and such, and control it with your. computer or phone without the actual music going through either. The DACs in them don’t get high marks, but they work if you don’t have one.
I have followed your advice for years and used the Mac mini as a streamer. Thanks! Benchmark actually recommended this for my Dac2 that uses more bandwidth in their clocking and fixing in Dac2 than most streamers does; and when using Tidal playapp it lets Benchmark Dac2 take over the control and play hi-res.
The need of a streamer lies in that you do not need to have your pc or cell phone connected to the dac. The streamer does it for you while being controlled by a cell phone sharing same WiFi network
I got two streamers at home so I can link them during parties. I have a system inside and a system in our "pool shanty" that I wanted to play the same music. It also allows me to DJ from my phone and take requests from guests.
"What the hell is that, a Denafrips?" LOL !!! Nice bluff Paul! That "joke" is eating a part of your lunch! Your reaction reveals the 1% of your 99% true ;)
@@davidfairchild1640 YoY DAC sales? What planet are you on? For starters, privately held companies don't reveal those stats and in any event, that's totally off base in this context. You're missing the joke! Deep breaths, deep breaths!
audiophiles would say: everything in one box can interfere with eachothers signals, or all use same power supply, things like that. they like a clean signal going into the latest step, the amplifier.
But some models doesn't support MQA, so technically if you play something like Tidal Masters it could be better to stream them from an app like Audirvana through DSD, because this way at least you will be able to keep the maximum resolution.
@@joenogueira2801 I don't think Paul knows about Denafrips. He isn't afraid of mentioning other brands. He only publicly insults B&W because he knows they can take it.
@@HateIronMaiden Not reel to reel. R2R is means it has a ladder of resistors making up all the voltage levels. A normal dac chip uses like 4 voltages and pulses them on and off to obtain the other voltages like pwm.
Denafrips makes fantastic R2R Ladder DACs that sound very analogue with a wide soundstage. I have the same set up as this viewer, with the addition of a Gaia DDC feeding the Pontus, also from Denafrips. All sounds great!
What the hell is a "Denafrips"?? Paul, i am sure they killed a bunch of your DAC sales with some great sounding DACs. You should study your competitors better. lol
@Fat Rat Lol most of the time when Americans say something embarrassing or something they regret, they dismiss it as sarcasm or a joke; standard procedure. Admitting errors can be hard sometimes... 😜
Correct..I have less against Chinese owned companies per-se.. rather I am more concerned about Chinese GOVERNMENT owned entities.... and the Denafrips' dealer in Singapore assures me that the Chinese government has no stake in Denafrips..It kinda makes sense to me as after all, it is a VERY SMALL manufacturing company compared with the likes of Huawei etc.. Having said that, I am still on the fence with R2R DACs and would most like go down the Schiit R2R DACs route first... Proof is in the pudding but Denafrips' lone dealer in Singapore does not provide 30 day home trials, that I am aware of..
@@scrambaba You are probably right but if I were the Chinese government, Huawei is a much larger fish to cultivate than Denafrips. We are all free to make our own decisions regarding this issue.. It reminds me a little.. of Japan automobile manufacturer bashing in the late 70's / early 80's
After some years playing with streaming, I'm going back to putting in a CD/SACD and reading the booklet (classical music mainly). Streaming is handy for deciding which CD performance to buy though. So yes there's room for both I guess...
I've got a laptop operating on Windows 8.1, and desktop computers. Amazon Music Prime; and I connect my Topping D10 DAC, Foobar2000 software. I now connect to my Sony desktop computer that I upgraded to Windows 7. I connect the above DAC with Linkerpard cables, to open back headphones, Base Audio G12. Made in America. I am in Canada, but I like American hi fi audio products, by the way. Therefore, in my case I actually don't need a music streamer. More space taken up, and a heap of money more that could be spent on other important hi fi audio equipment. Besides, I also prefer listening to CDs, and analogue music; and in stereo, mostly records. Vinyl records are played back on a hi fi device called a turntable, more commonly referred to as a record player, by the way. Furthermore, another medium of analogue musical playback is by cassette tapes, that are played back on a machine called a cassette deck.
May I ask if this "bit perfect" app is still required to get a clean digital file now that the new Apple Music with lossless has been released? Or can one simply select the required audio quality in the Apple Music menu to get the same effect? I have also heard that if streaming from an iPad, the iPad recognises when you plug in an external DAC, and automatically bypasses the internal music engine. Is this correct, and are there any other audio quality differences between streaming from an iMac, iPhone, or iPad? I have to admit that the whole streaming business, and the myriad options available, are just so frustratingly complex.
Hello John! Presently, Apple music offers files in a variety of format. Cd quality (16 bit 44khz) to 24 bit 192 Khz. If you are using a Mac mini or macbook all of these files will get converted to the default midi settings. That’s not what we want for best sound quality as Paul mentioned. Surprisingly iOS devices like iPhone or iPad do not have this problem. Bitperfect probably would not help you at this moment. It is no longer a maintained app and stopped working with a previous version of Apple Music. There is no good solution to this if you want to use Apple music. Either you have to use an iOS device or go for a separate streaming service like Tidal or Qobuz.
@@anirbans2006 Hi Anirban, thanks for your reply! since posting the query, I have purchased the Cambridge Audio CNV2 Streamer / DAC / pre-amp and am very happy with it! Plugging it straight into my old NAD 214 power amp driving B&W DM603 floorstanders, and I feel that I'm getting better sound than with my old Audiolab CD player.
Good morning. I like the way you choose to explain much better than people do in my language. I try to be as clearest as possible. I have tons of tracks in my computer (iTunes and Spotify). For a while I preferred to pay for liquid music but now I rediscovered my old Nad, speakers and turntable and bought recently a decent CD player of Marantz. However some other music, jazz p.e., is only available on Mac. If I want interface Mac with my amplifier to play these trax, what type of tool would you suggest to have a smooth sound? I used a cheap item purchased on Amazon for 30 bucks but sometime doesn’t’t work properly. I looked to a Nad CS1 but some people said I do not need to spend almost 350 to get a streamer. Please help me if you can. Thanks in advance. Kind Regards. Massimo.
Hi Paul. I would suggest you watch some of the recent reviews of Denafrips DACS on The Hans Beekhuyzen Channel if you want to learn more about the excellent build and sound quality of these DACs from Denafrips.
Compared to Roon and Audirvana both installed on PC and connected via USB to Rotel A14 amplifier, an old Pioneer n-30k streamer (connected to the same amp by coaxial cable) sounds much more alive and with better highs. With the same flacs. So personally am not sure if any soft is able to replace streamer.
My Android SM A 515U will not hook up to my MiiM Mini streaming "Puck". I have a preamp having an optical input, I want to get UHD Jazz etc online, So, I bought the "Pucking thing" a MiiM Mini streamer, reviews said 2 min. set up. But no, my android says no connect. Help.
Hi Paul. Thanks for your video on "DO I need a streamer" , it was very informative. I also use a MAC mini to stream music from Amazon HD. Did you know that the Mac mini's audio audio out 3.5mm port on an intel based MAC mini can provide either analog signal or optical signal - depending on which cable is connected to it. Will using the 3.5 mm port as a optical out eliminate the futzing that MAC OS does to the audio signal?
I have the Sonus Connect which has the all important co-ax output, only problem that there is a physical track limit it can scan. still can search folders, but after 76,000 tracks wont see any more.
The reason to use a dedicated streamer vs a laptop is all the system processes in a laptop that can degrade the source. The Naim Uniti Atom is a great little streamer-dac-amp combo.
Give me a break. I work on these systems all the time for work for decades. Either you got a bottle neck in perf or you don't. if you got a home htpc running your not gaming on it. you should not have anything running that is gonna take it to past 3/4 cpu or mem. BW out of your hardware is definitely not the issue unless your running something ancient. Laptop or desktop HTPC is gonna suck for Digital to analog. So if your using headset off pc directly or running a amp right off analogs on it thats gonna suck. Software is not a big deal. Tidal or spotify are same interface really. Now what he talks about in this video where the system get to the audio digitally before it gets sent out the digital HDMI port is a big deal too. The real answer is high dollar streamers are a waste. Get a real good hdmiport on a laptop going to a hifi amp and speakers and it will be just as good a source.
Yes you can but in my very limited experience with FB2k, its user interface is extremely primitive.. Audirvana is more advanced but not at ROON level thats provides a ton of info about the album, the artist etc.. if that's of import to the listener...
That's the same setup I use. It uses a Bit Perfect-esque interface driver but is very inconvenient if you want to switch to other music players or browser audio via your PC soundcard or standalone DAC. Constant driver switching.
"Take my Mac mini...please.." I use Qobuz and Audirvana on a PC. I assume that is what you are referring to for not needing a server. (Paul...you never heard of Denafrips??)
I wouldn't bother with a streamer, too limited. Just use an old laptop with a big external USB3 hard drive, burnt all my CDs to Apple Lossless, iTunes remote on an old iPad mini. I use Amazon Music HD streaming. I downloaded my playlists to local storage. I use CMedia CM6631A async USB to SPDIF converter into a Marantz PM6006. I advise all my friends, if they want a HiFi system to buy the AE1 active speakers, Chord Mojo DAC and use an old laptop. If they want more bass to add a subwoofer...
What would be the point of a streamer if I stream from my phone to a Bluetooth DAC? I'm just curious if there is any advantage to having one. The only thing I can see is that you will no longer have to leave your phone within 20 feet of the DAC.
@@ChiefExecutiveOrbiter my personal view is with the recent advancement in DAC chips especially the new 9068AS from ESS an RPi4 running Moode into a Chi-Fi DAC from Gustard or SMSL will give you 90% of the sound for 20% of the price when compared to R2R products from Denafrips or FPGA products from Chord or PS audio. I am not saying there is no difference, I am saying the differences are marginal even with good amplifiers, speakers and headphones. Good quality audio is now available under $1000. Very good quality.
@@navinadv I don't know what you're ranting about? I'm agreeing with you, and I clarified that lol. Yeah for $100 I was split for a smsl or the Modi 3 but they just updated it, so got the modi 3+. Don't need a fancy laptop or streamer can run files off of raspberry pi just fine.
Hi Sir I am beginer in sound field, I am confuse in Amplifire, Digital and drive rack. If my amplifire and Mixer had DSP, then I need dbx venue 360 drive rack ? Withoud drive rack can I produce proper sound ?
Actually you get remote control with apple music and audirvana through your mobile device. For audirvana it's, so, native ios/android app, for Apple Music it's iTunes remote app for iOS (not sure about android).
Bitperfect hasn’t been updated since Oct 2019 and it does not seem to be actively supported anymore. Does anybody have more info about the state of this app?
Any Windows pc, Mac mini, Linux machine that aren't built specifically for audio are inherently noisy. Their are hundreds and hundreds of processes in the background running unrelated to audio that increase noise and jitter to your dac via usb. Pc manufavters pay no attention how clean that signal is (the data and the power) going to your dac. It's great for those those wanting convenience and lower cost. But once you hear what optimized streamers and software can sound like it's tough to unhear that. It can lead to a big rabbit hole where folks optimise their operating systems for minimum processes and power used, using ram (memory playback) to using all sorts of power supplies optimized for hard drive, special audio usb/Ethernet hubs, special separate power usb ports, special lan / network cards with fancy clocks and again separate power supplies. So a rather large rabbit hole you could go down if you want to make a normal pc sound better. Or just get one specifically built and optimized by the manufacturer. Should be interesting to see how the new M1 powered mac mini do as a music server/streamer with how much more efficient and powerful some claim not using itel chips. Paul isn't in the loop on this Chinese r2r dac manufavter. Everyone on you tube and folks who follow this hobby are. They seem too be some good dacs for the price. Thanks Paul! Appreciate the white board videos! Time to get Darin in on some!
@John Gladwaller I all comes down to experience and each person has their own system. To be fair you have to have a resolving system to notice these changes. And you don't need a expensive system like Paul's to notice. Sometimes I wish mine wasn't as resolving because I it just keeps making you spend more $$$ for better results. I'm not discounting what Paul says about the mac mini. It's excellent for what it does. And it's convenient, small and silent. But I have a purpose built server streamer that sounds a,lot better. The bad thing is it keeps getting better spending more on the upgraded power supply powering it.
@John Gladwaller thank you. Yeah. Many seem to have some kinda angle or motive. Mines a older though not cheap system I have built over the years. If I had to count up the $$ is probably north of yours a bit. I have been streaming for many years starting with slim device/logic tech squeezeboxes that were modified. They were great and still are but it was hard to put them aside for the newer stuff. Hard to beat them older open source boxes. It's amazing they still work and supported after logic tech got rid of them. Loved the convience of them. Sometimes tweaking out all this and gives you better sound but as the expense of convenience.
Paul or anyone else, I use a mac air as a source to my PS Audio DAC. I use bit perfect when playing from my apple music files. Should I also be using Bitperfect when streaming from Quobuz?
I've never even tried streaming and mostly I'll never try. Because I want to own the media/music that my amplifier outputs. So I could see only Vinyl and CDs as music sources.
@MelleTwaklapper Yes, I watch youtube videos in my computer - informative technical videos/DIY videos only. But that's different from music audio reproduction.
Not good to be in the dark about rising competition especially when their cheapest product can take out items costing 3-4x as much for sound and build quality :)
Please help a brother out😅 i have a macbook conected to a rega mira 3 via rca kabel, monitor audio br2 speakers. I want to uppgrade the sound with something like a dac . Or do u have some tips in the budget area för me?? Usb dac maybe? Its an jungle of alternatives 😂// Martin
You can get excellent sounding DACs for not much money. Look for the Audioquest Dragonfly USB DAC, for instance, or, go to Schiit Audio. They make good stuff for low cost.
I’m streaming Apple lossless with a wired connection from an iPad to my av receiver’s rca inputs. I could use a lightning to hdmi adapter cable to let my av receiver perform the dac duties but I’m too cheap to buy the $50 cable.
4:30-4:50 is the actual answer. i love Paul but some of the info and answers in these videos are soo far off topic. lol. The main question is always " DOES IT IMPROVE SQ? he answers yes, right in the middle of a sentence almost like an afterthought. A dedicated streamer can improve SQ over a computer by greeatly reducing background noise from fans and all the other non music related components that are working inside a computer.
Mac OS is awesome for all things media and is used by professionals everywhere. I run 384kHz 32 bits PCM to my DAC from Mac OS. Yes, you want to run bit-perfect from source to DAC and do the volume control without reducing resolution (= on the DAC output or with premium analog volume). Now the new Mac Mini M1 is the one you want in a setup with a display giving awesome performance not only for audio but even also for gaming and 4K movie playback. The new M1 model has a much lower power consumption which helps reduce any cross-interference of noise into your audiophile system compared to heavy PCs running Intel or AMD architectures.
@@FooBar89A switch mode power supply driving higher currents and a CPU architecture using older lower density silicon with higher currents will tend to yield more digital switching noise. Of course things can be filtered more or less including with an optocoupler. Problems usually get worst if you run your DAC power via your USB cable from a noisy PC. Mac OS is can do excellent with audio. It’s a much more well designed OS than Windows and I especially like the stability of it, the freedom from malware, the much better user interface and the fact that it is closer to Linux at the console level. For software engineering of iOS Swift, Mac Swift, Android Java/Kotlin, Web whatever and even Linux C++, I rather use Mac OS. Windows is great for Windows app development and gaming only.
@@FooBar89 I don't need to make any hypothesis. Circuits carrying more currents through wires yield more EMI radiated noise as well as wire borne noise if everything else was identical. An M1 (5nm) motherboard running a few Watts of power vs an Intel chip (14nm) running 100s of Watts of power not only produces many factors less of thermal energy (most of your PC turns mains power into heat) but also many factors less of noise energy (either EMI or conducted). Of course a great motherboard will do extra filtering to keep noise from escaping via USB connectors and other I/O. E.g. a motherboard USB 5V output can be more or less filtered on the motherboard causing more or less problems with an external DAC. Of course an optocoupler is (practically) non-conductive to wire-borne noise and "filtering" is 100%. And it's totally silly that so many even "audiophile" DACs don't use proper isolation. Macs have gained a lot popularity among software developers and this is especially true in the last 5 years. You'll find them in use everywhere in Silicon Valley (where I'm working). Your IT department can usually show you that Macs are much more reliable requiring much less support also btw. Now with the M1 and the M1X soon coming, it's even more apparent to me what is better. I manage R&D teams.
stupid question. It does not matter where the music is taken from. whether the same music file is on your computer, cd disc, sd card or dvd / blueray does not play a roll as long as the dac is connected to the audio source with digital signal cable and the mussik file is not changed by the audio source then the sound quality is the same between them.
You've obviously never tried a comparison yourself, and/or you have hearing issues. And you definitely don't understand how digital works. There's no one's and zeros running through the wire. There's an analog signal that carries the data. Therefore it does matter. And anyone is free to find out themselves very cheaply. Just get a cheap Raspberry Pi HAT streamer, and hook it up to a RPI. This can be done for less then $100. Even with a regular wall wart. It will sound way better then a computer going to your DAC.
@@amb3cog If you need to have your computer on to stream music to a music stream box but your pc is so close to your audio system that you can add a digital coax to a dac then do so instead of using a streaming box. if you use spotify a lot then buy a good bluetooth 5.1 audio receiver with digital output and with aptx-hd and use it on a dac.
All of what Paul is talking about here can be duplicated with a Raspberry Pi running the Raspbian Operating System and Kodi. The latest Pi, the Model 4, has more then enough horsepower to move HiDef audio around and find streaming sources. I do it all the time. Tens of thousands of sources. It will also connect to DLNA, Samba and NFS LAN based sources. Kodi has a "pass through" option such that anything that it's "tuned" to the audio stream is passed through Kodi, and the Pi, completely untouched. All of the latest Pi's feature USB, 3.5 and HDMI outputs. The latest Raspberry Pi, the 400, would be a Wiz Bang addition to any High End stereo system. You can connect it to an external DAC or use it as is. There are audiophile grade low noise power supplies available if you are so inclined. A Raspberry Pi, including the new 400, costs about $100. The Raspbian OS and Kodi are free downloads. All the Pis now come with a universal installation package called NOOBS preinstalled on the 32GB microSD card that comes with it www.raspberrypi.org/ www.raspbian.org/ kodi.tv/ I'm sure there's someone in his crew that can spin one of these things up for him.
You can absolutely do it that way and it can sound pretty damn good but the question, as always in audio, is can you do it better with dedicated gear ? Having moved from pc streaming and squeezebox to an Auralic Femto and now Auralic G2, each time I have found a substantial improvement in sound quality. I was sorely tempted to go down the Pi route at one point, however, and I understand why it is popular. The tweaking potential alone is great.
@@jimfarrell4635 FYI I actually have a couple Pi's here and working on a couple more. Model 4's and the new 400. There's lots of ways to construct the software and a massive Pi Audiophile Community you can join and contribute to. My best source is a QNAP 16TB NAS which features a DLNA server to my GigaBit LAN. I would say again that the Pi 400 connected via USB to an external DAC would probably be the equal of just about anything at any price. I have one of the Pi's connected to my Home Theater System and it works wonderfully well.
I like still buying physical media, i’m in my 30’s so maybe that has something to do it. I like sacd still and wish more was around. I like the internet but there is something about not relying on a internet connection to play music. For mobile listening, on phone is easy and it’s there. But on my system def physical media for sure.
The best argument I can make for a streamer (with server/source storage) as opposed to a computer (with source storage) is that you don't need to keep a regular computer going 24/7. I sleep my laptop when it's not used, and no longer own a desktop computer. Uh oh. And no, you can't really do any of this very well without a real computer in the mix _unless you're just subscribing to streaming services._ Usage experiences (i.e. how well something works ... ) could imply the storage/server ting (a NAS, maybe?) could be accessed to either push sound to a streamer, or the streamer could pull it from storage. The fact that there are one zillion ways to do this lets you know many solutions still suck. A lot. But editing metadata, organizing files/artwork/playlists etc? That's pretty much always gonna be easier from a computer, with real keyboard. So, you can have both aspects but the central question is, do you want hard disks or SDD's always running? After all, that's what streaming services do on your behalf.
I plan to use an old ThinkPad as media server and don't mind it running 24/7 (with periodic reboots to keep things fresh). A streamer is yet another gadget I can do without.
With respect Paul that doesn't answer the question - or make sense. All that functionality you say is the reason someone might want a streamer is already offered by the likes of Tidal via their apps. Any answer should focus on why someone might benefit from a dedicated streamer who already listens to music from say Tidal, Apple, Spotify etc via a tablet or other screen connected via a DAC to an amp & speakers. What benefit might such a person (me) enjoy by investing in a separate streamer?
Funny fact, even though Denafrips is a Chinese company, their sale in China is terrible. However, PS Audio remains quite popular in China. I really like how Denafrips suddenly becomes the trending manufacturer now while back in its homeland nobody cares about it.
That's very interesting... yet I do know of companies that have strategically targeted markets outside of their own country of origin.... I don't know if this is the case here but there are a lot of brands like that...
I am an expatriate who work in China. By China’s size, Denafrips is a small company. But there are quite some users in China. Mr. Zhao, the founder and chief designer of the brand, is an easy guy to talk to. I have been a Denafrips fan since DAC8 Pro.
Frippin Denafrips? I believe they make a high end resistive ladder DAC. Im running a NAD M33 so dont need one. M33 also has one of the best BluOS streamers avail built right in. Unless you already own a huge music collection, you should probably consider streaming.
For a music streamer I use a Cambridge Stream magic 6. Works okay for me. Using a PC or a mac is not my cup of tea. 99.9% of the time I try to do something new on my PC I F--k everything up real bad. Have to get my daughter to get it right.
@@EliasTheHunter I am sure Amazon Music (free tier for Amazon Prime members, Unlimited tier and HD tier) is NOT at the same level as Tidal or Quobuz but the selection is vast and frankly, sounds pretty good or good enough for me.
@@ptg01 Neat! I totally get that: I stick with Spotify Premium (320kbps) myself. I’ve tried Tidal, but really can’t hear a difference, even with my Magnepan 1.7i or Empyrean headphones.
I love the idea of streaming.. ! But hate every single user interface there is.. Operation via a computer or an phone/table app is simply not good enough..
Listened to both Audirvana and Roon on a custom configured, fanless Intel NUC. Roon just doesn't sound as good, it just doesn't. However I like the Roon software a lot better, now if they could only make it sound better. Plus I'm not sure what Paul was talking about because Tidal and Qubuz, etc., work right from Audirvana.
Huh. I used Mac/Audirvana/DLNA to my SoTM SMS-200 Ultra Neo. Then, I tried Mac/Roon/RAAT to it. So much better! Plus, Roon is a much nicer experience beyond the sound quality. I guess the sound quality depends also how well the streamer is adapted to different protocols.
@@Nergrettez Yep, I bet you are right. I went out of my way to make sure my Intel NUC was in a fanless case, but more importantly I tweaked the cr@p out of Windows 10 to basically make it a simplified OS with a bare minimum of services and therefore background tasks... Really anything that would interrupt the playing of my music. I then installed Audirvana and Roon at separate times and listened to them both. Obviously the UI experience on Roon was much better. But unfortunately the audio quality was obviously not as good. I have no clue why this might be other than they have so many more processes running in the background to better their visual experience. And that is why I made the decision of Audirvana over Roon.
2:44 Wait a minute... I remember this! Isn't bit-perfect the same Foobar player plugin called "Kernel" or something? That plugin was awesome. It sounded a lot better than anything available today... too bad that plugin only worked in Windows XP! :(
Microsoft introduced a new and more modern audio architecture in Windows Vista. It offers a technology called "WASAPI, Exclusive Mode", which makes the Kernel Streaming technology you refer to obsolete. In foobar, you can use the "WASAPI output support" plugin to get the same bit-perfect sound as with Kernel Streaming mode under Windows XP.
You can use a Raspberry Pi some of them have dedicated dac to go on top or digital out connections likes coaxial s/pdif RCA BNC xlr Bluetooth anything you desire
Who is denafrips haha in sure you know :) They are one of your biggest competitors for DACs. Raspberry pi is a great inexpensive streamer to use with Roon.
That is Paul speak for "We have not innovated in the recent past. We need more time to catch up with the rest with regards to digital technology and to make things worse, we are going to put our time on building software which is not our core competency.
@@jimfarrell4635 I was not speaking about Denafrips. I was just responding on his take on streaming. But yes. Denafrips is the bomb and also hello from Singapore.
You have forgotten what it is all about. People who really want to listen to music don't generally want to mess with their systems. They want to press a button and be transported into the concert hall. The tech fiddle, connect, approach is is simply horrible. You're too busy listening to your speakers and too little interested in music.
Mac, Tidal Hifi subscription, Universal Audio Apollo into a Stellar 300 into KEF LS50's. Thats what simplistic musician me would do if I could afford the Stellar right now
The market is littered with tons of different streaming options.. I've been researching it for the better part of the year and am still not convinced that a $10K streamer is 20 times better than a $500 streamer.. But isn't that usually true of higher end audio ?
@@georgeanastasopoulos5865 Indeed.... there are a lot of claims out there how one streamer is so much better than another...It is so hard to audition these things to confirm the claims in one's own stereo environment....It's more like caveat emptor. I also have a hard time justifying $10K streamers when sub $1000 streamers seems to be positioned in a sweet spot... Fantastic performance and great value proposition...
@@ptg01 I understand your point further, PG. On Amazon there is the Bluesound NODE 2i Wireless Multi-room Hi-Res Music Streaming Player, and the Sonos Port - The Versatile Streaming Component for Your Stereo or Receiver. Although I certainly don't know enough about the digital music streamer area, and that these components may not reach the level of high audiophile standard, whatever that category is about, these are well under $1000. Therefore they area affordable, and in my opinion worth their main function.
I use a streamer when people tell me about a great song or artist etc. I listen to them on the streamer, if I like it I buy it. My wife talked me into it a little less than a year ago and I am glad to have it.
I would have agreed with you a few years ago but after embracing high quality streaming I am now listening to so much more music and more varied music than I did before. I still have cd, sacd, dvd audio, blu-ray audio and vinyl in my system mix but I stream more than anything else. Also Roon opens up a wealth of info and gives an extra dimension to listening. A good streamer is certainly an asset. My Auralic Aries G2 is the best sounding source component I have ever had.
Do I need bit prefect in addition to Audirvana? I thought Audirvana is already cutting out all of Apples interventions. Googling that suggests that BitPerfect is only useful in conjunction with iTunes (and who is using iTunes????). I would argue that I can read about artists on my separate laptop and leave the streaming server alone. Then one is not constrained what ever the streamer's software offered, but I have the entire internet.
Thanks Paul. This is the question I have been trying to get the answer to for some time. No one else bothers to answer it. You gave me everything that I need to know. Sounds like the streamer would be a nice addition.
@John Gladwaller yeah. I thought exactly the same thing at the end of this one. I love Paul’s videos but he didn’t seem to clearly answer the question. Seemed to say only get a streamer if you want the functionality of using Roon Software on a Mac mini which doesn’t require a dedicated streamer. But I suppose a Roon endpoint is a dedicated streamer (or streaming active speaker). I am confused 🤷🏼♂️
Great advice. Another pro and con with commercial streamer is it will eliminate the need to know any technical aspect of music playback. It is an appliance like a fridge or a TV. Turn it on and it works. The con is it is expensive and instantly obsolete.
There is nothing supplied in streamer that you can't do on your own using almost free technology. I evolved my streaming from Win to Linux on laptops to now a Rpi running Linux optimized for music. The Rpi is a little computer which costs $50. Access music from a NAS device $100 which sits on your home network or get music from the net. If your DAC does not have it's own clock, then you need to add a reclocking/isolation device to the Rpi. Control your system from your chair using your phone via wifi. I run MPDroid on my Samsung phone. $150 in hardware. Software is free. There are lot's of groups providing bit perfect software. Always up to date. It can be as simple or complex as you want.
Denefrips are well reviewed DACs. I wish PS Audio streamers allowed more choices of sources, i.e Pandora ( we know about its bit rate), Roon, Amazon HD
Kind of surprised that you’re not familiar with Denafrips. Their DACs are pretty hot at the moment, and they compete directly with PS Audio.
LOL, you're actually convinced that he doesn't know a direct competitor who's been eating his lunch?
@@joenogueira2801 I expect Ted Smith his digital guy knows Denafrips, but Paul, not so much.
Never tried either but would love to try both. Anyone here ever get to hear a product from both?
@@curljam4373 Denafrips is made in China, PS audio in USA so obviously, the cost of the build advantages Denafrips in a very big way. Both companies produce very good products, however, Denafrips offers higher value for the money. As for the sound signature, YMMV. As with any HIFI, t needs to be compared in the same room with the same system, otherwise there are too many variables to muck up your judgement.
I agree, I think he knows Denafrips, just want to give it a cheap jab.
Paul, Every time I watch your videos, I'm doing things right. I "Stream" RUclips music with a $100 tablet via USB [192k] to my DAC. The sound Quality is beyond my dreams. Best, D. From Stl.
Denafrips is not a joke!!! Perhaps THE best DAC ever made!!! Come on Paul! Do your searchs...
Did he just call a denafrips pontus a joke dac?OHHH i keep forgetting hes a seller.
Probably just a newer product or brand Paul hasn’t heard about
bluesound node2i ... tidal connect, done
Love my Node 2i!
Good way to jump into streaming. Can bring up all of your music subscriptions, internet radio stations, podcasts and such, and control it with your. computer or phone without the actual music going through either. The DACs in them don’t get high marks, but they work if you don’t have one.
If Bluesound handles DSD natively, I am ALL-IN ! Still waiting and it's been 2 years !!!
Yes, plus all my music collection (CD, SACD, Vinyls) transferred HR to my personal server...
Fantastic bit of kit, would well recommend the Cambridge audio cxn v2, Dac great and makes such a difference having a screen for album artwork
I have followed your advice for years and used the Mac mini as a streamer. Thanks! Benchmark actually recommended this for my Dac2 that uses more bandwidth in their clocking and fixing in Dac2 than most streamers does; and when using Tidal playapp it lets Benchmark Dac2 take over the control and play hi-res.
Hello Paul one thing you are not mentioning is the noise from the computer itself ,from power supplies and switching.
I happen to buy a Denafrips Pontus 2 and have my Mac Mini on usb interfaced . I am using Audirvāna Studio and upscale . This is an amazing setup .
The need of a streamer lies in that you do not need to have your pc or cell phone connected to the dac. The streamer does it for you while being controlled by a cell phone sharing same WiFi network
Wanna stream music to another room? Turn your main system up LOUDER!
I got two streamers at home so I can link them during parties. I have a system inside and a system in our "pool shanty" that I wanted to play the same music. It also allows me to DJ from my phone and take requests from guests.
Paul, if you havent heard about Denafrips, then you're missing out on the latest things happening in the industry.
"What the hell is that, a Denafrips?" LOL !!! Nice bluff Paul! That "joke" is eating a part of your lunch! Your reaction reveals the 1% of your 99% true ;)
You've seen YoY DAC sales figures from both companies?
@@davidfairchild1640 YoY DAC sales? What planet are you on? For starters, privately held companies don't reveal those stats and in any event, that's totally off base in this context. You're missing the joke! Deep breaths, deep breaths!
It's almost like he doesn't put much stock in DACs....
Maybe some of you should consider why he doesn't care, hahahah
My streamer came installed in my Yamaha 803 integrated. Musicast is very easy to use. I say keep it all in the same box for a better signal
audiophiles would say: everything in one box can interfere with eachothers signals, or all use same power supply, things like that. they like a clean signal going into the latest step, the amplifier.
But some models doesn't support MQA, so technically if you play something like Tidal Masters it could be better to stream them from an app like Audirvana through DSD, because this way at least you will be able to keep the maximum resolution.
Got it! Thanks for clarification. I don't need one. Unless I want to play and futz around. Good job!
Denafrips are great R2R dacs from China sold from Singapore.
I'm certain he knows exactly who they are!
@@joenogueira2801 I don't think Paul knows about Denafrips. He isn't afraid of mentioning other brands. He only publicly insults B&W because he knows they can take it.
A reel to reel DAC?
What?
@@HateIronMaiden Not reel to reel. R2R is means it has a ladder of resistors making up all the voltage levels. A normal dac chip uses like 4 voltages and pulses them on and off to obtain the other voltages like pwm.
Denafrips makes fantastic R2R Ladder DACs that sound very analogue with a wide soundstage. I have the same set up as this viewer, with the addition of a Gaia DDC feeding the Pontus, also from Denafrips. All sounds great!
I like to envelop myself within the music, that's why I can't tolerate multitasking!
Mr Paul, you are the best sir 👍
What the hell is a "Denafrips"?? Paul, i am sure they killed a bunch of your DAC sales with some great sounding DACs. You should study your competitors better. lol
I never realised Americans actually don’t understand sarcasm
@Fat Rat Lol most of the time when Americans say something embarrassing or something they regret, they dismiss it as sarcasm or a joke; standard procedure.
Admitting errors can be hard sometimes... 😜
@Fat Rat 😂😆😂
@@QoraxAudio Fat Rat had to leave, doubt he will return
Denafpris is a brand of high end dacs
Denefrips is a Chinese company. They're apparently great products if you don't mind supporting a Chinese company.
Correct..I have less against Chinese owned companies per-se.. rather I am more concerned about Chinese GOVERNMENT owned entities.... and the Denafrips' dealer in Singapore assures me that the Chinese government has no stake in Denafrips..It kinda makes sense to me as after all, it is a VERY SMALL manufacturing company compared with the likes of Huawei etc.. Having said that, I am still on the fence with R2R DACs and would most like go down the Schiit R2R DACs route first... Proof is in the pudding but Denafrips' lone dealer in Singapore does not provide 30 day home trials, that I am aware of..
Most hi end gear has parts from China.....
@@scrambaba You are probably right but if I were the Chinese government, Huawei is a much larger fish to cultivate than Denafrips. We are all free to make our own decisions regarding this issue.. It reminds me a little.. of Japan automobile manufacturer bashing in the late 70's / early 80's
@@scrambaba If only you knew how much China is in the products you supposedly support...
Comment typed on a Chinese made phone.
After some years playing with streaming, I'm going back to putting in a CD/SACD and reading the booklet (classical music mainly). Streaming is handy for deciding which CD performance to buy though. So yes there's room for both I guess...
I've got a laptop operating on Windows 8.1, and desktop computers. Amazon Music Prime; and I connect my Topping D10 DAC, Foobar2000 software. I now connect to my Sony desktop computer that I upgraded to Windows 7. I connect the above DAC with Linkerpard cables, to open back headphones, Base Audio G12. Made in America. I am in Canada, but I like American hi fi audio products, by the way.
Therefore, in my case I actually don't need a music streamer. More space taken up, and a heap of money more that could be spent on other important hi fi audio equipment. Besides, I also prefer listening to CDs, and analogue music; and in stereo, mostly records. Vinyl records are played back on a hi fi device called a turntable, more commonly referred to as a record player, by the way. Furthermore, another medium of analogue musical playback is by cassette tapes, that are played back on a machine called a cassette deck.
Doesn't know who Denafrips are? Key rule of business - know your competition.
Fairly certain that he does but is being intentionally dismissive.
They are rated well
May I ask if this "bit perfect" app is still required to get a clean digital file now that the new Apple Music with lossless has been released? Or can one simply select the required audio quality in the Apple Music menu to get the same effect? I have also heard that if streaming from an iPad, the iPad recognises when you plug in an external DAC, and automatically bypasses the internal music engine. Is this correct, and are there any other audio quality differences between streaming from an iMac, iPhone, or iPad? I have to admit that the whole streaming business, and the myriad options available, are just so frustratingly complex.
Hello John! Presently, Apple music offers files in a variety of format. Cd quality (16 bit 44khz) to 24 bit 192 Khz. If you are using a Mac mini or macbook all of these files will get converted to the default midi settings. That’s not what we want for best sound quality as Paul mentioned. Surprisingly iOS devices like iPhone or iPad do not have this problem. Bitperfect probably would not help you at this moment. It is no longer a maintained app and stopped working with a previous version of Apple Music. There is no good solution to this if you want to use Apple music. Either you have to use an iOS device or go for a separate streaming service like Tidal or Qobuz.
@@anirbans2006 Hi Anirban, thanks for your reply! since posting the query, I have purchased the Cambridge Audio CNV2 Streamer / DAC / pre-amp and am very happy with it! Plugging it straight into my old NAD 214 power amp driving B&W DM603 floorstanders, and I feel that I'm getting better sound than with my old Audiolab CD player.
Paul : I don't like Windows.
His windows in background : Cried a lot 😭
Good morning. I like the way you choose to explain much better than people do in my language. I try to be as clearest as possible. I have tons of tracks in my computer (iTunes and Spotify). For a while I preferred to pay for liquid music but now I rediscovered my old Nad, speakers and turntable and bought recently a decent CD player of Marantz. However some other music, jazz p.e., is only available on Mac. If I want interface Mac with my amplifier to play these trax, what type of tool would you suggest to have a smooth sound? I used a cheap item purchased on Amazon for 30 bucks but sometime doesn’t’t work properly. I looked to a Nad CS1 but some people said I do not need to spend almost 350 to get a streamer. Please help me if you can. Thanks in advance. Kind Regards. Massimo.
What then, is the PS Audio app on my phone for my Stellar Strata?
You can bypass most of the the onboard audio on a Windows PC by using the S/PDIF output to whatever you want.
Nick: Do you if the Audioquest Dragonfly do that - even though it doesn’t use S/PDIF?
@@bikdav Not natively, Windows can only bypass onboard audio using S/PDIF. It would probably work if you got a S/PDIF to USB convertor.
@@Nickc4555 Oh. OK.
That answers a lot of questions at my end.
He knows who denefrips are. He’s just poking fun at the competition.
Nice answer paul.
Hi Paul. I would suggest you watch some of the recent reviews of Denafrips DACS on The Hans Beekhuyzen Channel if you want to learn more about the excellent build and sound quality of these DACs from Denafrips.
I don’t like Windows
The computer behind’s like, I’m trying hard to go blue screen, see, half way there.
Compared to Roon and Audirvana both installed on PC and connected via USB to Rotel A14 amplifier, an old Pioneer n-30k streamer (connected to the same amp by coaxial cable) sounds much more alive and with better highs. With the same flacs. So personally am not sure if any soft is able to replace streamer.
My Android SM A 515U will not hook up to my MiiM Mini streaming "Puck". I have a preamp having an optical input, I want to get UHD Jazz etc online, So, I bought the "Pucking thing" a MiiM Mini streamer, reviews said 2 min. set up. But no, my android says no connect. Help.
Audirvana is a wonderful software.
I use it and am happy with it.. but Paul's point is it does not have the album notes / stories etc ... that something like ROON would provide...
@@ptg01 The remote app of Audirvana has it.
Hi Paul. Thanks for your video on "DO I need a streamer" , it was very informative. I also use a MAC mini to stream music from Amazon HD. Did you know that the Mac mini's audio audio out 3.5mm port on an intel based MAC mini can provide either analog signal or optical signal - depending on which cable is connected to it. Will using the 3.5 mm port as a optical out eliminate the futzing that MAC OS does to the audio signal?
I have the Sonus Connect which has the all important co-ax output, only problem that there is a physical track limit it can scan. still can search folders, but after 76,000 tracks wont see any more.
The reason to use a dedicated streamer vs a laptop is all the system processes in a laptop that can degrade the source. The Naim Uniti Atom is a great little streamer-dac-amp combo.
Way too expensive for what it is, the Uniti Atom. Same or better stuff in Auralic ALTAIR G1 or ELAC DDP2 or even Volumio Primo.
Give me a break. I work on these systems all the time for work for decades. Either you got a bottle neck in perf or you don't. if you got a home htpc running your not gaming on it. you should not have anything running that is gonna take it to past 3/4 cpu or mem. BW out of your hardware is definitely not the issue unless your running something ancient. Laptop or desktop HTPC is gonna suck for Digital to analog. So if your using headset off pc directly or running a amp right off analogs on it thats gonna suck. Software is not a big deal. Tidal or spotify are same interface really. Now what he talks about in this video where the system get to the audio digitally before it gets sent out the digital HDMI port is a big deal too. The real answer is high dollar streamers are a waste. Get a real good hdmiport on a laptop going to a hifi amp and speakers and it will be just as good a source.
Oh Paul, you know exactly what Denafrips is and you know the company‘s sales numbers as well as PS Audio‘s. At least you know what Roon is...:)
Can you turn the volume with phone when connected to node?
Thx
You can use Foobar2000 with Wasapi and other plugins to get direct digital audio out of a Windows PC.
Yes you can but in my very limited experience with FB2k, its user interface is extremely primitive.. Audirvana is more advanced but not at ROON level thats provides a ton of info about the album, the artist etc.. if that's of import to the listener...
@@ptg01 FB2K is definitely for tinkers and not for easy user experience
That's the same setup I use. It uses a Bit Perfect-esque interface driver but is very inconvenient if you want to switch to other music players or browser audio via your PC soundcard or standalone DAC. Constant driver switching.
"Take my Mac mini...please.."
I use Qobuz and Audirvana on a PC. I assume that is what you are referring to for not needing a server.
(Paul...you never heard of Denafrips??)
I use the same setup as you... By thru dnla with audirvana to sms 200 ultra. WAY better sounding than if dac right to pc
I got martin Logan motion 10s very nice set
I wouldn't bother with a streamer, too limited. Just use an old laptop with a big external USB3 hard drive, burnt all my CDs to Apple Lossless, iTunes remote on an old iPad mini. I use Amazon Music HD streaming. I downloaded my playlists to local storage. I use CMedia CM6631A async USB to SPDIF converter into a Marantz PM6006. I advise all my friends, if they want a HiFi system to buy the AE1 active speakers, Chord Mojo DAC and use an old laptop. If they want more bass to add a subwoofer...
Haha You should check it out , Denafrip might get all customers from PSAudio.
yes the Chinese will eat our lunch in 4 years
You are a great guy, Paul. You are 100% correct as usual. A streamer is a waste of space.
I didn't hear him say that
What would be the point of a streamer if I stream from my phone to a Bluetooth DAC? I'm just curious if there is any advantage to having one. The only thing I can see is that you will no longer have to leave your phone within 20 feet of the DAC.
Then you have first go through the dac on your smart phone? Whereas direct streamer pulls it directly off the streaming service? 🤔
Volumio, Moode, there are many free/cheap players and you don’t need a full blown PC, a Raspberry Pi will do.
He's right
@@ChiefExecutiveOrbiter who is? Paul?
@@navinadv lol I'm saying you are.
@@ChiefExecutiveOrbiter my personal view is with the recent advancement in DAC chips especially the new 9068AS from ESS an RPi4 running Moode into a Chi-Fi DAC from Gustard or SMSL will give you 90% of the sound for 20% of the price when compared to R2R products from Denafrips or FPGA products from Chord or PS audio. I am not saying there is no difference, I am saying the differences are marginal even with good amplifiers, speakers and headphones.
Good quality audio is now available under $1000. Very good quality.
@@navinadv I don't know what you're ranting about? I'm agreeing with you, and I clarified that lol. Yeah for $100 I was split for a smsl or the Modi 3 but they just updated it, so got the modi 3+. Don't need a fancy laptop or streamer can run files off of raspberry pi just fine.
Hi Sir
I am beginer in sound field, I am confuse in Amplifire, Digital and drive rack. If my amplifire and Mixer had DSP, then I need dbx venue 360 drive rack ?
Withoud drive rack can I produce proper sound ?
Actually you get remote control with apple music and audirvana through your mobile device. For audirvana it's, so, native ios/android app, for Apple Music it's iTunes remote app for iOS (not sure about android).
I use JRIVER to manage my FLAC files on a tower PC and have never heard anyone else mention it.
Bitperfect hasn’t been updated since Oct 2019 and it does not seem to be actively supported anymore. Does anybody have more info about the state of this app?
Bitperfect is a companion for itunes, Audirvana doesn't need it (it uses it's own core)
Any Windows pc, Mac mini, Linux machine that aren't built specifically for audio are inherently noisy. Their are hundreds and hundreds of processes in the background running unrelated to audio that increase noise and jitter to your dac via usb. Pc manufavters pay no attention how clean that signal is (the data and the power) going to your dac. It's great for those those wanting convenience and lower cost. But once you hear what optimized streamers and software can sound like it's tough to unhear that. It can lead to a big rabbit hole where folks optimise their operating systems for minimum processes and power used, using ram (memory playback) to using all sorts of power supplies optimized for hard drive, special audio usb/Ethernet hubs, special separate power usb ports, special lan / network cards with fancy clocks and again separate power supplies. So a rather large rabbit hole you could go down if you want to make a normal pc sound better. Or just get one specifically built and optimized by the manufacturer. Should be interesting to see how the new M1 powered mac mini do as a music server/streamer with how much more efficient and powerful some claim not using itel chips. Paul isn't in the loop on this Chinese r2r dac manufavter. Everyone on you tube and folks who follow this hobby are. They seem too be some good dacs for the price. Thanks Paul! Appreciate the white board videos! Time to get Darin in on some!
@John Gladwaller I all comes down to experience and each person has their own system. To be fair you have to have a resolving system to notice these changes. And you don't need a expensive system like Paul's to notice. Sometimes I wish mine wasn't as resolving because I it just keeps making you spend more $$$ for better results. I'm not discounting what Paul says about the mac mini. It's excellent for what it does. And it's convenient, small and silent. But I have a purpose built server streamer that sounds a,lot better. The bad thing is it keeps getting better spending more on the upgraded power supply powering it.
@John Gladwaller thank you. Yeah. Many seem to have some kinda angle or motive. Mines a older though not cheap system I have built over the years. If I had to count up the $$ is probably north of yours a bit. I have been streaming for many years starting with slim device/logic tech squeezeboxes that were modified. They were great and still are but it was hard to put them aside for the newer stuff. Hard to beat them older open source boxes. It's amazing they still work and supported after logic tech got rid of them. Loved the convience of them. Sometimes tweaking out all this and gives you better sound but as the expense of convenience.
Paul or anyone else, I use a mac air as a source to my PS Audio DAC. I use bit perfect when playing from my apple music files. Should I also be using Bitperfect when streaming from Quobuz?
I've never even tried streaming and mostly I'll never try. Because I want to own the media/music that my amplifier outputs. So I could see only Vinyl and CDs as music sources.
@MelleTwaklapper Yes, I watch youtube videos in my computer - informative technical videos/DIY videos only. But that's different from music audio reproduction.
Is it better sound quality when you own it?
Not good to be in the dark about rising competition especially when their cheapest product can take out items costing 3-4x as much for sound and build quality :)
it was probably just a comment for posturing.
@@snakeobias Ya you're probably right. If thats the case then its a sign of fear
So the only benefit of a streamer is artist information and the experience?
Please help a brother out😅 i have a macbook conected to a rega mira 3 via rca kabel, monitor audio br2 speakers. I want to uppgrade the sound with something like a dac . Or do u have some tips in the budget area för me?? Usb dac maybe? Its an jungle of alternatives 😂// Martin
You can get excellent sounding DACs for not much money. Look for the Audioquest Dragonfly USB DAC, for instance, or, go to Schiit Audio. They make good stuff for low cost.
@@Paulmcgowanpsaudio super thanx!!i like your videos 😁👍greetings from sweden.
You can circuvent the operating system audio processing with Linux also.
I’m streaming Apple lossless with a wired connection from an iPad to my av receiver’s rca inputs. I could use a lightning to hdmi adapter cable to let my av receiver perform the dac duties but I’m too cheap to buy the $50 cable.
4:30-4:50 is the actual answer. i love Paul but some of the info and answers in these videos are soo far off topic. lol.
The main question is always " DOES IT IMPROVE SQ? he answers yes, right in the middle of a sentence almost like an afterthought. A dedicated streamer can improve SQ over a computer by greeatly reducing background noise from fans and all the other non music related components that are working inside a computer.
Mac OS is awesome for all things media and is used by professionals everywhere. I run 384kHz 32 bits PCM to my DAC from Mac OS. Yes, you want to run bit-perfect from source to DAC and do the volume control without reducing resolution (= on the DAC output or with premium analog volume). Now the new Mac Mini M1 is the one you want in a setup with a display giving awesome performance not only for audio but even also for gaming and 4K movie playback. The new M1 model has a much lower power consumption which helps reduce any cross-interference of noise into your audiophile system compared to heavy PCs running Intel or AMD architectures.
@@FooBar89A switch mode power supply driving higher currents and a CPU architecture using older lower density silicon with higher currents will tend to yield more digital switching noise. Of course things can be filtered more or less including with an optocoupler. Problems usually get worst if you run your DAC power via your USB cable from a noisy PC.
Mac OS is can do excellent with audio. It’s a much more well designed OS than Windows and I especially like the stability of it, the freedom from malware, the much better user interface and the fact that it is closer to Linux at the console level. For software engineering of iOS Swift, Mac Swift, Android Java/Kotlin, Web whatever and even Linux C++, I rather use Mac OS. Windows is great for Windows app development and gaming only.
@@FooBar89 I don't need to make any hypothesis. Circuits carrying more currents through wires yield more EMI radiated noise as well as wire borne noise if everything else was identical. An M1 (5nm) motherboard running a few Watts of power vs an Intel chip (14nm) running 100s of Watts of power not only produces many factors less of thermal energy (most of your PC turns mains power into heat) but also many factors less of noise energy (either EMI or conducted). Of course a great motherboard will do extra filtering to keep noise from escaping via USB connectors and other I/O. E.g. a motherboard USB 5V output can be more or less filtered on the motherboard causing more or less problems with an external DAC.
Of course an optocoupler is (practically) non-conductive to wire-borne noise and "filtering" is 100%. And it's totally silly that so many even "audiophile" DACs don't use proper isolation.
Macs have gained a lot popularity among software developers and this is especially true in the last 5 years. You'll find them in use everywhere in Silicon Valley (where I'm working). Your IT department can usually show you that Macs are much more reliable requiring much less support also btw. Now with the M1 and the M1X soon coming, it's even more apparent to me what is better. I manage R&D teams.
How can you work for an audio company and not have heard of Denafrips?
Singaporean speciality direct to consumer company with ~ 50 employees.
stupid question. It does not matter where the music is taken from. whether the same music file is on your computer, cd disc, sd card or dvd / blueray does not play a roll as long as the dac is connected to the audio source with digital signal cable and the mussik file is not changed by the audio source then the sound quality is the same between them.
You've obviously never tried a comparison yourself, and/or you have hearing issues. And you definitely don't understand how digital works. There's no one's and zeros running through the wire. There's an analog signal that carries the data. Therefore it does matter. And anyone is free to find out themselves very cheaply. Just get a cheap Raspberry Pi HAT streamer, and hook it up to a RPI. This can be done for less then $100. Even with a regular wall wart. It will sound way better then a computer going to your DAC.
Oh, and there's no such thing as stupid questions. But there are certainly stupid answers. 😉 ✌️
@@amb3cog If you need to have your computer on to stream music to a music stream box but your pc is so close to your audio system that you can add a digital coax to a dac then do so instead of using a streaming box.
if you use spotify a lot then buy a good bluetooth 5.1 audio receiver with digital output and with aptx-hd and use it on a dac.
All of what Paul is talking about here can be duplicated with a Raspberry Pi running the Raspbian Operating System and Kodi. The latest Pi, the Model 4, has more then enough horsepower to move HiDef audio around and find streaming sources. I do it all the time. Tens of thousands of sources. It will also connect to DLNA, Samba and NFS LAN based sources. Kodi has a "pass through" option such that anything that it's "tuned" to the audio stream is passed through Kodi, and the Pi, completely untouched.
All of the latest Pi's feature USB, 3.5 and HDMI outputs. The latest Raspberry Pi, the 400, would be a Wiz Bang addition to any High End stereo system. You can connect it to an external DAC or use it as is. There are audiophile grade low noise power supplies available if you are so inclined.
A Raspberry Pi, including the new 400, costs about $100. The Raspbian OS and Kodi are free downloads. All the Pis now come with a universal installation package called NOOBS preinstalled on the 32GB microSD card that comes with it
www.raspberrypi.org/
www.raspbian.org/
kodi.tv/
I'm sure there's someone in his crew that can spin one of these things up for him.
You can absolutely do it that way and it can sound pretty damn good but the question, as always in audio, is can you do it better with dedicated gear ? Having moved from pc streaming and squeezebox to an Auralic Femto and now Auralic G2, each time I have found a substantial improvement in sound quality.
I was sorely tempted to go down the Pi route at one point, however, and I understand why it is popular. The tweaking potential alone is great.
@@jimfarrell4635 FYI I actually have a couple Pi's here and working on a couple more. Model 4's and the new 400. There's lots of ways to construct the software and a massive Pi Audiophile Community you can join and contribute to. My best source is a QNAP 16TB NAS which features a DLNA server to my GigaBit LAN. I would say again that the Pi 400 connected via USB to an external DAC would probably be the equal of just about anything at any price. I have one of the Pi's connected to my Home Theater System and it works wonderfully well.
@@jimfarrell4635 Look at this: www.hifiberry.com/
Can’t find “ bit perfect”. ???
I am thinking of doing a Raspberry Pi project.. but it sounds too diy
Allo makes amazing add on boards to elevate the sound. Better than many sub $2k streamers. They aren’t pretty but function amazing well.
What is a "streamer"? Is this some sort of combination dedicated computer, quality DAC control box? Maybe like a SlimDevices Transporter (circa 2005)?
Stupid device to play music wirelessly
I like still buying physical media, i’m in my 30’s so maybe that has something to do it. I like sacd still and wish more was around. I like the internet but there is something about not relying on a internet connection to play music. For mobile listening, on phone is easy and it’s there. But on my system def physical media for sure.
you should Paul Denafrips produces great ladder dacs
The best argument I can make for a streamer (with server/source storage) as opposed to a computer (with source storage) is that you don't need to keep a regular computer going 24/7. I sleep my laptop when it's not used, and no longer own a desktop computer. Uh oh. And no, you can't really do any of this very well without a real computer in the mix _unless you're just subscribing to streaming services._
Usage experiences (i.e. how well something works ... ) could imply the storage/server ting (a NAS, maybe?) could be accessed to either push sound to a streamer, or the streamer could pull it from storage. The fact that there are one zillion ways to do this lets you know many solutions still suck. A lot.
But editing metadata, organizing files/artwork/playlists etc? That's pretty much always gonna be easier from a computer, with real keyboard. So, you can have both aspects but the central question is, do you want hard disks or SDD's always running? After all, that's what streaming services do on your behalf.
I plan to use an old ThinkPad as media server and don't mind it running 24/7 (with periodic reboots to keep things fresh). A streamer is yet another gadget I can do without.
With respect Paul that doesn't answer the question - or make sense.
All that functionality you say is the reason someone might want a streamer is already offered by the likes of Tidal via their apps.
Any answer should focus on why someone might benefit from a dedicated streamer who already listens to music from say Tidal, Apple, Spotify etc via a tablet or other screen connected via a DAC to an amp & speakers.
What benefit might such a person (me) enjoy by investing in a separate streamer?
Funny fact, even though Denafrips is a Chinese company, their sale in China is terrible. However, PS Audio remains quite popular in China. I really like how Denafrips suddenly becomes the trending manufacturer now while back in its homeland nobody cares about it.
That's very interesting... yet I do know of companies that have strategically targeted markets outside of their own country of origin.... I don't know if this is the case here but there are a lot of brands like that...
I am an expatriate who work in China. By China’s size, Denafrips is a small company. But there are quite some users in China. Mr. Zhao, the founder and chief designer of the brand, is an easy guy to talk to. I have been a Denafrips fan since DAC8 Pro.
@@zeissiez While based on my experience and online sales like taobao, in fact I believe Holo Audio in much popular than Denafrips.
GlacierXD. Yes Holo Audio seemed to have a much bigger following.
Thanks for sharing Paul
Frippin Denafrips? I believe they make a high end resistive ladder DAC. Im running a NAD M33 so dont need one. M33 also has one of the best BluOS streamers avail built right in. Unless you already own a huge music collection, you should probably consider streaming.
For a music streamer I use a Cambridge Stream magic 6. Works okay for me. Using a PC or a mac is not my
cup of tea. 99.9% of the time I try to do something new on my PC I F--k everything up real bad. Have to get
my daughter to get it right.
Yup! I have the Cambridge Audio CXN V2. Works well for me!
@@EliasTheHunter But I think it does not support Amazon Music ???
@@ptg01 I have no idea about that. Wasn’t aware that Amazon music existed.
@@EliasTheHunter I am sure Amazon Music (free tier for Amazon Prime members, Unlimited tier and HD tier) is NOT at the same level as Tidal or Quobuz but the selection is vast and frankly, sounds pretty good or good enough for me.
@@ptg01 Neat! I totally get that: I stick with Spotify Premium (320kbps) myself. I’ve tried Tidal, but really can’t hear a difference, even with my Magnepan 1.7i or Empyrean headphones.
A dedicated laptop is handy and good enough with e.g. JRiver, it is just a matter of resources....
I love the idea of streaming.. !
But hate every single user interface there is.. Operation via a computer or an phone/table app is simply not good enough..
Listened to both Audirvana and Roon on a custom configured, fanless Intel NUC. Roon just doesn't sound as good, it just doesn't. However I like the Roon software a lot better, now if they could only make it sound better.
Plus I'm not sure what Paul was talking about because Tidal and Qubuz, etc., work right from Audirvana.
Huh. I used Mac/Audirvana/DLNA to my SoTM SMS-200 Ultra Neo. Then, I tried Mac/Roon/RAAT to it. So much better! Plus, Roon is a much nicer experience beyond the sound quality.
I guess the sound quality depends also how well the streamer is adapted to different protocols.
@@Nergrettez Yep, I bet you are right.
I went out of my way to make sure my Intel NUC was in a fanless case, but more importantly I tweaked the cr@p out of Windows 10 to basically make it a simplified OS with a bare minimum of services and therefore background tasks... Really anything that would interrupt the playing of my music.
I then installed Audirvana and Roon at separate times and listened to them both. Obviously the UI experience on Roon was much better. But unfortunately the audio quality was obviously not as good. I have no clue why this might be other than they have so many more processes running in the background to better their visual experience.
And that is why I made the decision of Audirvana over Roon.
2:44 Wait a minute... I remember this! Isn't bit-perfect the same Foobar player plugin called "Kernel" or something? That plugin was awesome. It sounded a lot better than anything available today... too bad that plugin only worked in Windows XP! :(
Microsoft introduced a new and more modern audio architecture in Windows Vista. It offers a technology called "WASAPI, Exclusive Mode", which makes the Kernel Streaming technology you refer to obsolete. In foobar, you can use the "WASAPI output support" plugin to get the same bit-perfect sound as with Kernel Streaming mode under Windows XP.
@@rolandsiegert4858 Can I use WASAPI on Windows 10 and 11 too?
Why do streamers cost that much if you can just use Roon?
It is for idiot audiophiles who actually believe streamers enhance sound quality 😁.
I have a Denafrips Pontus too, great DAC
You can use a Raspberry Pi some of them have dedicated dac to go on top or digital out connections likes coaxial s/pdif RCA BNC xlr Bluetooth anything you desire
Who is denafrips haha in sure you know :) They are one of your biggest competitors for DACs. Raspberry pi is a great inexpensive streamer to use with Roon.
That is Paul speak for "We have not innovated in the recent past. We need more time to catch up with the rest with regards to digital technology and to make things worse, we are going to put our time on building software which is not our core competency.
To be fair Denafrips use R2R technology which is decidedly old school. They just do it extremely well.
@@jimfarrell4635 I was not speaking about Denafrips. I was just responding on his take on streaming. But yes. Denafrips is the bomb and also hello from Singapore.
You have forgotten what it is all about. People who really want to listen to music don't generally want to mess with their systems. They want to press a button and be transported into the concert hall. The tech fiddle, connect, approach is is simply horrible. You're too busy listening to your speakers and too little interested in music.
Mac, Tidal Hifi subscription, Universal Audio Apollo into a Stellar 300 into KEF LS50's. Thats what simplistic musician me would do if I could afford the Stellar right now
Hey, Paul! I'm a fan of yours. Won't be surprised if you'd be doing R2R soon. :)
Can’t find Bit Perfect.
So basically a streamer won’t improve on the audio quality of a laptop or PC?
Not at all!It is just a damn signal sent to a DAC
The market is littered with tons of different streaming options.. I've been researching it for the better part of the year and am still not convinced that a $10K streamer is 20 times better than a $500 streamer.. But isn't that usually true of higher end audio ?
Well said, PG. To get a 0.5 to 2% difference to more sound gets a bit ridiculous.
@@georgeanastasopoulos5865 Indeed.... there are a lot of claims out there how one streamer is so much better than another...It is so hard to audition these things to confirm the claims in one's own stereo environment....It's more like caveat emptor. I also have a hard time justifying $10K streamers when sub $1000 streamers seems to be positioned in a sweet spot... Fantastic performance and great value proposition...
@@ptg01 I understand your point further, PG. On Amazon there is the Bluesound NODE 2i Wireless Multi-room Hi-Res Music Streaming Player, and the Sonos Port - The Versatile Streaming Component for Your Stereo or Receiver.
Although I certainly don't know enough about the digital music streamer area, and that these components may not reach the level of high audiophile standard, whatever that category is about, these are well under $1000. Therefore they area affordable, and in my opinion worth their main function.
@@georgeanastasopoulos5865 Yes ! Familiar with both and neither supports DSD natively so I wait... :D
I agree with you Paul. Windows stinks and you might want to do just a little homework before you make bombastic comments like “it must be a joke”.
Paul will soon know what a Denatrips is after reading the comments
I don't need a streamer at all. I have my CD's, SACD's, DVD-Audio and that's more than enough for me.
I use a streamer when people tell me about a great song or artist etc. I listen to them on the streamer, if I like it I buy it. My wife talked me into it a little less than a year ago and I am glad to have it.
but to buy all that is more expensive than streaming..... (but I dont have a streamer yet, :) )
I would have agreed with you a few years ago but after embracing high quality streaming I am now listening to so much more music and more varied music than I did before. I still have cd, sacd, dvd audio, blu-ray audio and vinyl in my system mix but I stream more than anything else.
Also Roon opens up a wealth of info and gives an extra dimension to listening. A good streamer is certainly an asset. My Auralic Aries G2 is the best sounding source component I have ever had.
Do I need bit prefect in addition to Audirvana? I thought Audirvana is already cutting out all of Apples interventions. Googling that suggests that BitPerfect is only useful in conjunction with iTunes (and who is using iTunes????).
I would argue that I can read about artists on my separate laptop and leave the streaming server alone. Then one is not constrained what ever the streamer's software offered, but I have the entire internet.
I do. I don’t know what else to do if I don’t want to pay a subscription.
My audio gear is physically distant from pc, thinking a streamer is a good solution for me.
Way better sounding too. Sms 200 ultra is amazing sounding