How to listen at low volumes
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- Опубликовано: 23 июл 2024
- When the neighbors are complaining about the loudness of your system, you pretty much have to turn the level down. And check out our newest RUclips channel / @octaverecordsanddsdst... Octave Records.
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Daily bed time story. Paul, when you say "I'll see you tomorrow. Bye", I just close my eyes and fall asleep.
ASMR :D
same
same
you sleep in 5 min? dammm
Lol 😂... Paul has a second job these days ... didn't he tell you he's a hypnotherapist..and a very good one too...
Moving the speakers into a nearfield listening position can also help as the the listener would hear real increased levels while the total sound output, and hence what others perceive would still be less. Thanks Paul!
I love nearfield in my room with my Focal Chorus 706 speakers. If I crank it up I move back and toe the speakers less
@@madnezz1961 Yes, thanks!
Or getting headphones. Thats the maximum form of what you just said :D
@@PharaoRamsesII Headphones and nearfield have different strengths and I often prefer nearfield. Although, in the future, with Meta, we may have no choice :)
Imagine a setup where the speakers automatically and mechanically toe in according to the volume and listener's position.
Finally, after 41 Years the loudness Button of my parents amp (grundig fine arts) makes sence to me :) thanks 4 the information.
What I have found is you sort of get used to listening at a set volume but if you lower the sound gradually, it gives your ears a chance to readjust and what might have sounded too quiet a couple of weeks ago doesn't anymore. Alternatively, buy a pair of headphones. I've just bought a pair of Quad Era and love them😄.
I bought a Yamaha receiver with variable loudness and that made me happy
Back in my student days I couldn't play music loud when my fellow students were sleeping during the day, but I had a modest Japanese integrated amp with a loudness button. The fixed loudness curve only worked over a very small range of low volumes, but over that narrow range it did sound quite a bit better than leaving it flat.
Back in the 80s when I first learned how to properly use a "loudness button" it was a great revelation. Shortly after that manufactures quite installing them. And shortly after that I discovered "high end" audio. Went into Stereo One in San Diego to find an EQ, or anything, to make my system sound better. He then told me, in only the smallest of snobbery, that none of their equipment even had tone controls. Then he let me listen to the Celestion SL600, that started the started the roller coaster.
Paul thank you so much for being a friendly kind voice during.
The covid-19 pandemic you guys are awesome
Thank you for explaining how volume affects the overall hearing experience. When I was younger I liked music played loudly. I’ve discovered that for the most realistic hearing experience, the volume needs to be just right. Now I know why.
Wow, that was some excellent information there Paul. I'd never heard of the Fletcher Munson curve before. That explains why I always have to play my LPs at a specific level to have them sound their best. Great video!
👽🖖"Na-nu"
Thanks for the talk! I found my own solution for low level listening, and that is large speakers! I have kef concertos which I really like. Very old and not too everyone's taste, but they really do the business at low levels, due to thier warmth. Low frequenies are clearly audible with all the radiating area of the b139 woofer. At high levels they might overpower my room with all the bass, but when at a whisper, they permiate the space with all the presence I could want.
Hi Paul. I have seen many of your videos and have learnt a lot. Not only you're full of knowladge, you are a very funny guy!
Thanks for taking time to educate us. Paul for president!!!
Wow! I've been wondering about this for years and nobody could explain it to me. Thanks, Paul!
Amazingly uncanny! I watch your informative, well-presented videos regularly and have learned a lot. But, recently there have been 3 or 4 (not necessarily new posts) that have hit right between my eyes...wanted something regarding subwoofers and there you were next time I went to youtube; same for speaker placement...and this one, as I low-level listen quite a lot. And, of the two requisites of a new amp I'm getting, one was loudness control function. Thanks for the great timing, Paul! Keep the super-helpful vids coming.
great explanation.. I was asking myself about that loudness button.. which sounded awkward at high volumes.. It all makes sense now.. Thank you dear sir!
Great video as always. Speaker / Amp choice can of course make a huge difference.
I’ve found LS50 Meta’s paired with a Hegel H120 work really well at low volumes without changing the dynamics / narrowing the soundstage too much compared to other speakers & amps I’ve had in the past.
Quite a dramatic improvement actually! Hope this helps somebody.
Another fantastic explanation !!! I don’t know how you do it PAUL but you remain D best .....
You're very kind. Thank you!
that's true. Additionally, the amount of positive energy that emanates from Paul is unbelievable.
@@legendpj I am sure that Paul, PS Audio (and myself too) send lots of love and positive energy towards you and your soul
Great question, I've always wondered about this too! Never knew what loudness control was for either, this video was great thanks!
Yeah, really! Now im actually going to use the loudness button, woohoo!
unfortunately, most New receivers no longer have that Button...I have many older yamahas that do have it though...
Thanks for your explanation Paul, this is the question in my mind for long time, on my opinion the quality of the system can be tested on how the system remain give the details of each frequency at low volume level , that's my parameters if the system sound great at low volume level, without truncated the bass , and treble, then it will sound great at normal or higher volume level. Thanks for your insight about the loudness control. Stay safe and healthy Paul.
Although i am not a qualified electronic engineer but i am working with audio amplifiers since 1979 so your information is quite a valuable thing for me and i trying my best to gain much knowledge form your lectures and i enjoyed a lot. i am from Pakistan
You have a great speaking voice and cadence sir. The content is also Top notch. Thank you kindly!
Very good topic Paul
Glad that you discussed with us
Wow, very timely. That answers the question I had.
Great video. I have had some issues lately adjusting the volume. When it’s too low it just sounds flat and not real. When it’s too loud, it also looses some of its realistic properties, but the music is very much alive. When you turn the volume to the level which seems realistic, magic happens.
Wow! Thanks for that excellent explanation- I never really understood how the 'loudness' button can improve the listening experience- now I know. I think I need one!
Thank you Paul love all your videos 👍👍
Excellent explanation. We tend to forget it’s all just electronic trickery and instead put too much thought into how it sounds rather than the music itself.
Simply great!
Very well explained! I have tinnitus which gets even worse anytime I treat myself to "high" volume levels...It is That which prompts moderation more than anything else ,at least for me...so I learn to enjoy at Moderate levels which cause no further ill effects to my hearing...I get a kick outta people in audio forums talking about running their 200 and 300 watt per channel amps at "reference" level..like wtf? How is that Not damaging ur ears? I would either be deaf or have tinnitus flare up so bad as to be unbearable...
great amazing explanation!!
A few things that helps: 1. Use class A amp. 2. Reduce background noice (through walls, windows, printers etc) 3. Purer power. 4. Antivibration. 5. AMT-tweeters and midrange. 6. Listen in your sweetspot
Purer power? What does that mean?
This stuff should be somewhat obvious but for some reason we need to hear it very well explained.. and you DO explain things very nicely and make sense of things in words...so for this i say thank you.
hey Paul i am really impressed from your knowledge
You always learn something new. I always thought that loudness buttons and knobs would compress the sound levels to make the dynamics more manageable at night hence allowing you to raise the volume. Something along the line of midnight mode on some soundbars and receivers.
G Guest Yup, that’s how the loudness control worked. The only problem with the idea is that it could not know what SPL your ears were getting so it couldn’t really accurately compensate for the different loudness levels. But it was an attempt anyway. It’s better to have some tone controls like the Bellari EQ570 which is essentially identical to the Schiit Loki but is just $119 and has much bigger and more widely spaced controls which makes it a lot easier to use.
Thanks Paul, as usual, great insights.
I have been struggling with this issue on my desk top as I don't want to blast my ears up close to the speakers. I found a combination of Paul's suggestion along with some of the advise here useful collectively:
1. I use a lower power speaker (less than 20W) - I used a commercial speaker and replaced the drivers. There are some good options in PartsExpress. I chose a long throw driver for my kind of music.
2. I use an free equaliser - APO - its free but it works on PC only! Windows players also have an EQ option - good to experiment. It gives better control over each frequency band to customise listening curve. @StewartMarkley has some good suggestions for others EQ's.
3. I also keep the speakers towed in and at ear level. Raising a few inches to ear level made a big difference.
4. Used a high power amp.
5. Someone suggested a pre amplifier - I found it improves sound staging to a large extent. An option is using a DAC - their price is quite reasonable now - many have a preamplifier built-in..
6. Another interesting option is to bi-amp and apply sub 1K frequencies to the driver and others frequencies to a full range - that may require a custom job though.
I assumed that was the reason for the “loudness” control, but it was great to be affirmed! That has to be one of the most abused buttons on a tuner. People crank it up AND hit the loudness. Distortion a plenty. I’ll bet that is the single greatest cause of blown home audio speakers. Thx!!
for sure!
At low volumes, luv those tone controls!
Thank you for this extremely valuable information.
I had to turn down my computer speakers to hear Paul more clearly.... thanks for this video Paul
The best explanation i have heard! Pioneer Cinema Amplifier had night mode which is a kind of loadnees!
My AVR has a night mode but it decreases the bass and sound of explosions etc. I don't care for it myself.
That answers the question for me, I've always wonered if it was an electronic thing or just my hearing. Thanks.
Yes, it's just your hearing , and ours too . The ear's frequency response varies with volume level . And that's what Fletcher-Munson and Paul just said .
@@biketech60 I'm scooping out my inner ear and installing a better one. I've had it with these things!
Unusual topic. I listen to my kit at low volume a hell of a lot. Not that I have to worry about neighbours, I don't have any close enough. But I have never noticed that the overall sound diminish in any noticeable way. Or not that it doesn't sound as good as it does loud! You may want to close your eyes hear Paul, but I have Bryston equipment. My amp packs 600w per side, but sound great at whisper volume level as it does deafening me😄😄
I toe the speakers in more at night for low level listening so that the tweeter is firing directly at me from each speaker. It makes the center image sharper and makes the voicing more apparent. I don't like this during the day (it shrinks the sound stage and the speakers do not disappear) but for low level, late night listening it helps a lot. I can listen at very low levels this way. I also tend to listen to more singer-centric music or jazz at night (think Joni Mitchell) where the emphasis isn't on a huge sound stage but the singer themselves. So between the type of music and toe-in I can listen at low levels. Much different than other times when I want normal volume listening (I rarely crank up music).
I just bought a Sennheiser 560 for nighttime listening. I love them. Most headphones annoy me but these are extremely comfortable with beautiful sound that doesn’t annoy my ears like most headphones do.
I’m using a massive marantz sr7500 to power them and I’ve cranked these things up to make my ears bleed with no distortion.
a good SET ... alo sounds awesome and maybe sometimes even better then when its loud !!! :-)
Good tip, thank you 👍
Great explanation
Good info....THANKS from an apartment dweller.
Great explanation.
I'm listening at low volume right now! :-) #sunday morning relaxing
hey Paul that is very valuable information from me "Loudnes" thanks a lot
Since the 70’s I’ve always used a separate equalizer on the a/b settings adjusted for lower volume….always works for me
Grea explanation - asl always from Paul.
Another idea for llow volume listening could be adding artificial "sound excitement" by adding an extra device into the chain (e.g. between the pre- and main-amp).
These devices are often used in studio mastering and even live on stage. Currenty, I am using an old parametric EQ from SPL (called Qure), taking advantage of a special tube powered "voice enhancement" section curcuit that adds some very nice sounding harmonics to the signal. And, I am considering to reach out to them for a more "exciting" type of gear, called SPL stereo vitalizer, expecting even more sound transparency. Reviews and testiminials appear very promising - and this device is below 1000 bucks.
Another trick which I use regularly is to add a bit of reverb to the whole music - this works great for most kinds of music. the trick here is to keep the level very subtle.
My hifi, determined where, and what i live in...
A detached home, on 1/3 of an acre in a semi rural area...
It comes to something, when you have to buy a house under those rules... lol
What we do for our hobby... some would say we are just nuts...
Frank...
equalizer apo has a GREAT loudness correction when properly setup. Couldn't imagine my setup without it
Speakers that sound frequency balanced just as they just become audible are rare gems.
I found adding a subwoofer made a big difference to low level listening. I know it sounds counter intuitive but it's true. I can now listen and enjoy music late at night without waking wife/kids. Before I had a sub it wasn't enjoyable for the reasons you describe.
I had this exact same problem and so I bought a headphone amp and headphones and connected them to my laptop. It's quite a good way to go I think, because you can get quite amazing results for not a huge amount of money. It's a different sound: in some ways better; and in some ways worse.
turn out all the lights - sit in darkness and suddenly your music sounds much larger and the soundstage is back for the same level that was lost when the light is on - its about allocationg your senses - when the sens of sight is not used your hearing is more sensitive
This is great advice and I’ll add that closing your eyes helps as well. Your senses are then even more focused on sound
You're absolutely right; I close my eyes when really LISTENING without realizing why. Thank you for..."allocating your senses"! Just never thought of that in those terms.
Great!
I have a sound optimizer switch for low volume listening. Also near field listening and extreme toe in, 45 degrees plus, given the speakers, if possible, might help.
I used to like loudness controls, and used them. Then I spent 20 years in broadcast engineering, and became accustomed to listening on studio monitor systems, which have no loudness compensation, at all kinds of volume levels -- and thereby I unconsciously trained myself to mentally compensate for the Fletcher-Munson effect. Now I enjoy music fully, even at low volume levels, with no loudness compensation needed. In fact, it even sounds flat to me, so good has my psychological conditioning been. Now I can't stand loudness controls. They sound bizarre and unnatural to me now.
Therefore I currently like my ~30w speakers very much. It's not possible to make stage sound but for normal and louder listening they still give a great dynamic at low volume. I use the loudness function for extremely dynamic or badly produced stuff like some yt videos or movies/series when I listen very quietly. with bigger speakers i made some experiences with quieter listening, how the dynamics get lost even at relatively normal volume
Another thing I didn't know, I didn't know. Thanks to Paul, now I know.
Headphones eh? Thanks paul for your honesty
The Schiit Loki mini was the solution for my late night listening. It has a convenient bypass.
Interesting topic. I try not to wake up my family while late night listening.
My current amp has no loudness button but does have bass and treble control. Would these controls be able to reach the same effect as a loudness button? Or is the shape of a loudness correction too difficult to replicate with two controls?
Increasing the volume does not compensate for the lack of sound quality. Once you have built up a system that you can listen to at a moderate level, then you know you have reached a level of sound quality that you want to just sit and listen to. At this very moment, your eyes will close whilsts you drift into hifi heaven!!
I love it!
P. S. Headphones are not the answer. It's all about transparency.
A good loudspeaker SET ... also sounds awesome and maybe sometimes even better when its at low volume instead of when its loud !!! :-) thats also how you can test how good a speaker set really is ... before you buy a set ... put the volume very low .. and listen if you are still satisfied with the sound :-)
This is why I like the Loudness dial and the 5-band EQ on my preamp.
On my current 2.1, I find I just have to turn up the powered subwoofer a bit. My Klipsch synergy's have plenty of mid and high, at the volumes I use.
3:18 When you're talking about dynamic range, do you know for certain that the dynamic range doesn't grow or increase with higher and higher volume?
Most components with "loudness" switches boost only the low end;
a few do also boost highs, but in either case they don't often do it very well.
I have heard good compensation from, maybe, two properly engineered models.
Variable loudness controls, such as those found on some Yamaha products,
seem to do much better. Using an equalizer works, but doing it right
requires readjusting the curve for each different volume setting.
I have mostly avoided using the loudness feature on the equipment I own
because I find it usually boosts the bass too much. Of course, if there is a bass knob,
one can turn it down to partially compensate for the error, but I would prefer
that the loudness circuit be better designed to begin with.
From my onkyo TX-DS797 manual:
Late Night
Cinema sound has a vast dynamic range; therefore, to hear the quieter sounds such as human conversations, they must be played back at larger volumes. When this parameter is set to “High” or “Low,” the dynamic range of the sound is narrowed down to allow you to easily hear minute sounds at low volumes. This function is especially useful if you wish to play a movie at low volumes during the nighttime.
This can be set to either “Off” or “Low,” or “High.”
When this parameter is set to High or Low, the dynamic range of the sound is narrowed down to allow you to easily hear minute sounds at low volume.
Hear music below 75 db. Like . In my place it's never gonna wake anyone .
I realized hearing Netflix on a office sound level is like insanely captivating .
Now, to listen at high volume. 🔊🔊
Three years ago and we’re still listening to you at low volumes 👍
So when I turn the fully balanced ARC LS10SE down low as it can go, it swings to the left channel only, with the right channel dropping off early. So low volume listening is not so ideal in this system…
This is very interesting! Does this mean that V-shaped sound headphones are well/better suited for low volume hearing? Or is this perception effect only present with a speakers+room setup? If this is not present in headphones though... I would blind guess that that perceived drop in bass and treble could come from the room walls starting to stop bounding those frequencies? Cheers!
I had a similar problem. I liked listening to the music only loud, like I always wanted to turn the volume to the max. Until I changed my speakers. The Amp, cables, dac, music are all the same. But the new speakers got me the "big" sound. I suddenly feel everything even when listening quietly. Now, when using just 1 watt, I really enjoy. I can clearly hear and feel the bass kick, which on smaller speakers was there, but somehow didn't "drive" me, didn't make me wanna dance...
Maybe its just in the size of the speakers, I don't know. Before, when I needed to listen loud, I had wharfedale 9.5 with 6.5 inch woofer. Now, when I enjoy quiet music, I have quadral montan mk3 with 12 inch woofers. They are old, but really big and great, with the sound just like that!
Hi Paul. I listen to your talks perhaps 10 times a day, at least. I know much more now than I could learn since 1973 when I started listening to my stereo. After listening to you this much I am convinced that I should recap and also upgrade some of the components in the crossovers. A friend suggested that upgrading will make my speakers sound clean. What are clean sounding speakers? And what are all the components I could change in my crossovers? Thank you and best regards. Azhar Zaidi
Good to know.
A good indication that you should isolate between apartments is if you can hear voices from the neighbour. Fix that. And you will be able to play music at reasonable levels at day and evening. ( in night we are not supposed to play music in apartements ).
Right to the point.
excelente explicação
Ages ago people understood that we need loudness function, tone controls or EQ to fix this exact issue and make music listening PLEASURABLE at low levels. Then came some absurd snake oil opinion that these controls somehow are unwanted as they "damage" the sound and even a bypass function can't be properly designed to avoid "damaging" the signal. Some products nowadays are designed with some care of this issue, but amazingly few. One reason is that 90% of audio engineering has moved to China and in China people listen to music that is mostly mid-range focused. Thus they don't actually realize this as a major problem and aren't raising the flag as audio engineers used to do. It's like a forgotten topic in audio engineering and that's a big bummer! I have some hope that Paul one morning will wake up after some dream realizing that loudness compensation (or EQ compensation for your treble loss due to aging or other reason) can easily be done in a DSP at the digital signal before the DAC and bypassing loudness is completely harmless when done such way...Paul save us...your Tesla car has DSP based loudness doing its magic, by the way...
@TB....Well, I agree with your start, but you lost me with the place of manufacture. Companies manufacture all over the world mostly without 'tone controls. Further, so many audio companies manufacturing in China aren't Chinese companies. They are American, British etc. It's not up to the manufacture what they produce!
Btw a good example of the use of 'tone' controls (parametric eq, bass/treble), comes on board the RME adi-2 dac.
That's German engineering for ya. Not to mention their gear stacks up to measurements, that are published by their engineers and have been further tested by others.
Cheers man
nostro1001 Well, nowadays many mainstream audio products are engineered in southern China in Dongguan, Shenzhen, Huizhou, Guangzhou etc. including for well known brands highly focused on cost efficiency. Just because a brand is not chinese doesn’t mean the engineering is done outside China. In fact, lots of brands are licensed and in many cases what you find is the sales and marketing effort is the only effort outside China. Contract manufacturers nowadays also do much of the engineering and even product definition.
All great music is midranged based imo
777 Trax I’m talking about music with mostly focus on vocals optimized to play on poor narrow band speakers and in small apartments with thin walls not allowing deep bass. People who don’t appreciate music with sub bass and details in the highs aren’t passionate about those things. Actually I’ve seen this issue with my own eyes endlessly working with quite a few audio engineering teams.
@@ThinkingBetter Thanks, I know what you mean now. Cheers
There is dBA, dBB and dbC. This is from wekipidia -
Since the human ear is not equally sensitive to all sound frequencies,
noise levels at maximum human sensitivity, somewhere between 2 and 4 kHz, are factored more heavily into some measurements using frequency weighting
Good open-back headphones.
This is an issue that I had for long time. Changed countless amplifiers and speakers until I realised just what Paul said. There is one more thing, all amplifiers sound best at high volumes, just look at any distortion curve, so a low power amp will sound better than a high power one at low volumes. This being said the only electronics brand that gave me the full sound that I want at low volumes seems to be Technics. I had a '90s pre/power and today the SU-G30. By far the best sound I ever experienced at low volumes. Turn it up and you could get amps that sound better, but at low volumes I am in heaven. And 95% of my listening is at low levels.
really Technics is that good at low volumes?
I am also listening to mostly at night at low volumes
ARKADIUSZ MIKINA for me and my taste I could not find anything better. It's the only brand that gave me that full sound with deep bass even at very low listening levels.
@@soring5880 this is great to know, many thanks.
Willy try SU-G30 then.
btw, do you know or have you tried the G700? How does it compare to G30?
@@arkadiuszmikina4563 No I have not, but I expect it to have a similar sound signature.
If only companies called the loudness button "night mode" or "whisper mode" it would have made so much more sense all those years ago
Most reasonable Bluetooth speakers do this EQ adjustment via the inbuilt digital signal processor (DSP). At full volume they are relatively flat EQ, but at each digital volume step, they change the EQ to suit that volume. So at low volume they don't sound too different to high volume in terms of perceived frequency range.
They may also compress the dynamic range to help with that as well.
totally agree had variable loudness on my Yamaha and Technics receivers worked wonders. Why aren't the audiophile company's per se' bringing it back? its not the same as Auduessey and the likes that put that val over the music.
This is Brian. I had a pioneer qx8000 quad receiver. I used a Dual 1229 turntable with a top Empire Cartridge. I used 2 McIntosh rear speakers (3 way?) And 2 Old Sansui up front with 6 speaker array in them. All had 12 inch woofers. It was 3 a.m. , I was spinning vinyl in my apartment when my friend quietly whispered across the room, " Won't this bother the neighbors?" I responded whispering back, " we are whispering quietly and we are not as loud as the music" So , how are we bothering anyone. Personally, you either need better equipment or you need to know how to operate your your current system.
I’m in the exact same boat. I have speakers rated at 80-200W rms and my amp is rated at 60w. Was stuck between getting a bigger amp to get better dynamic sound at low volumes and/or add 2 subwoofers to the setup for low volume bass? any recommendations welcome. My current amp does not have a loudness function. It does have tone controls for bass and treble.
A MUCH MORE POWERFUL AMP WILL DEFINITELY GIVE YOU A MUCH LARGER ,SOUNDSTAGE...
Paul,
Thank you for the excellent explanation as I had forgotten these "normal" anomalies exist in regards to "my" system. Maggie 1.7's based, (need I say more)?
Is there a recommended average db level that is a balance of loudness and accurate staging? That is, a point where you get all the music has to offer without being too loud for safety, or adding the "louder is better" skew to perception.
Looking at any spectrum analyzer will show that most of the "musical" energy is in the midrange. Our human hearing is also designed to be most receptive to the midrange. If you excessively boost an equalizers bass and treble (smiley curve) to flatten the response, it gives an unnatural sound. Few loudness controls do the job as they boost around 100Hz and 10kHz at fixed levels only. A variable loudness option (Yamaha) is more natural and a better choice. Or buy a graphic equalizer, the more bands, the better. Tough topic, but nicely explained. Thanks Paul.
Thanks, Paul!
I never real knew what the loudness button was for except that it boosts the highs and low and that made music exciting to my 20 years old ears eons ago.
Anyway, does the loudness equalisation only kick at low volume level or at any level?
at all levels bro... i wouldnt run it if you were playing loud...its a boost for when u are at low to moderate levels and adds fullness back into the soundstage
Hey Paul, great video and interesting subject. In my experience, I have heard some speakers that seem to sound fuller at lower volumes than others. I'm not sure if this was by design, or they just got lucky. My roomates Acoustat model 3's sound very good at lower levels. I wonder if this is because of the larger radiating surface of the panels. I also find them to have plenty of bass, despite what many people say about planers ( particularly electrostatics ) not so much so with planar magnetics. Just my two cents worth .
Pls could you help me set up my tannoy sub and surround speakers I also hv a set of gals on the front left and right into my vintage technics amp really help me thank u
For low volume listening I prefer the "cupped hands to ears" method. It also works as a people deterrent.
@Fat Rat sometimes even 2.5 meters! They think about it for a second or two before even considering interrupting me.
@Fat Rat Hahaha! I kind if figured it was for that. Cheers brother. Stay safe :)