Bringing Jack on to the channel was such a smart move, in retrospect. Having another well thought out, enthusiast opinion to contrast with Mark's really adds value. Especially when Jack and Mark disagree, and take the time to explain the disagreement.
You nailed it! I absolutely enjoy when Mark and Jack disagree. They each make great points and great arguments. This channel is legendary, it’s classic, it’s like going back in time to when you were younger fantasizing about cars you’d never be able to afford, and here comes Mark giving you a taste of these vehicles through his channel. It’s really amazing!
I took a long look at this car a month ago when I was in the market and - yes it’s great in a lot of ways. ESPECIALLY that shifter and the feeling from it. That said, there is a major thing being left out of this video that impacts this car - and almost all new cars in 2022: Dealer markup. EVERY dealer I contacted had more than a $5k markup on this. The out-the-door price was usually around $36-38k. At that price, this car is just not worth it. The crazy thing is, all these dealerships are selling them. In the end I picked up a Mk8 GTI. I got it for $500 under MSRP, after a lot of negotiating and I love it. The infotainment needs work, but it’s not the crazy deal breaker all the reviewers say it is. There are a lot of shortcuts baked into it that weren’t covered in any review I saw. I loved the Civics of the past and I contend that Honda makes the best manuals on the market, bar none. But until this market gets under control and this car is actually being sold for MSRP or less, then it’s just not an option.
I appreciate your opinion and ability to compare this in the real world. Could you expand on the infotainment and the things you say aren't covered in any review? It is true for me, after watching the reviews, the infotainment and everything touch/haptic would be a dealbreaker and I wouldn't buy the car for it. I travelled back home to Europe for work/personal, had rented 2021 B-class, so older MBUX and the two little Blackberry-like touchpads on the steering wheel and that was horrible. Can't imagine having the entire steering wheel controls that way. In my Bullitt, I love the "older" set up of buttons for everything both on steering wheel and the column. The one sole item buried in infotainment is the heated steering wheel, that's it.
well, in my experience, if you go to a big dealership, chances are higher that you can get the car at invoice with around msrp out the door. probably doesn't work with new gen cars like this one but it's still worth trying if they have a big inventory so they can move big numbers instead.
I’m stalking my Honda dealer and when prices finally come down I will buy one. Until then I’m perfectly happy keeping my old shitbox in mostly one piece. Financial mistakes will punish you for a lifetime.
Mark, Jack, I just gotta say that in the past 2 years I've watched you, your channel quality has easily doubled in my opinion. Your sense of humor is unique and I'm sure doesn't fit everyone's taste, but you provide a great perspective on the daily econoboxes and a fun twist on the performance cars that not everyone does. Sadly, the "clickbitiness" of RUclips (and lack of your "clickbaitiness," which I appreciate) is why you don't have the 1M subs you badly deserve. :(
Nobody in RUclips analyzes the cars as good as you do. You talk about the most relevant issues about the cars. This is another great review. It helps me a lot because I am thinking to buy the sport touring or the SI. Thank you guys
Hard for me to stomach the ~$3000 jump in baseline price considering the features that this loses that the previous generation had. Looks great, but we really needed the Canadian-spec car for this price in the states, IMO.
I'm really enjoying the hybrid presenter format. And really nice to see how far Jack and come from his first videos. Now get back to reviewing more piles!
@@papa_pt I could be in the minority here but I think the new Civic and new WRX look better than their previous gens. This is coming from a guy that has never owned either but now have my attention.
@@thepassinglane I think most agree the new Civic looks better (aside from the jdm nuts), while the WRX not so much. I don't mind the plastic fenders it since it looks the rally part
@@papa_pt I’m with ya on the fenders. Give it time and the fenders will eventually grown on the masses. I don’t think they’re bad and I get the design stand point, and I live in the rust belt.
I have to agree with Mark the savage geese himself here. The other options might wow you with numbers but this si would be far more enjoyable on a daily basis. It’s Honda giving the enthusiasts a great engineered car at an affordable price
That's true. It's a good all around car but affordable is a bit of a stretch. Just not that long ago SI msrp was $23k, Mazdaspeed 3 was $22k and not only that the dealers are upcharge on the SI is just stupendous high. All said and done you are looking at mid to high $30k Civic SI that is just an okay all around car.
Except they’re not. They’re giving you a car with less features for more money. I have no problem with a stripped out car that just has the bare necessities but the price should reflect that.
@@DJPleasureSeekingMissle “Fewer features” is not necessarily true. Some features you see; some you don’t. Development costs, costs of performance parts, etc. all get factored into the price. Also, inflation…
The thing about the new Si in the US is that you're even losing features that you had in the last generation. You lose heated seats, fog lights, the digital dash, and I believe dual zone climate control from the last generation.
I would put money on every feature the Canadian Si has, ending up on the Integra. I don't see the dumbing down of the trim level on the Si as anything other than brand engineering trying to justify the price gouging on the upcoming Integra. We can see this already on how the highest trimmed Civic Touring is more than the Si. So take that, and put an Si drivetrain in it, then sprinkle an Acura badge on it...hello $40k hatchback.
What a great debate and video. This segment is truly one of the most difficult to survive in but I feel like this is truly a strong competitor. It’s the most inexpensive and it does everything good. I personally chose the Elantra N, but I still see the value in the Civic Si
I think Honda's done a good job here by providing a great daily driver with enough fun added at an affordable price. I had an 8th gen Si sedan which served me well though I eventually upgraded to a mk.6 GTI which offered a more substantial, quieter drive for a bit more $. In the end, it all depends on your priorities.
@R mu Why are you on this thread? It was a car I owned, now I own something more expensive from the sister brand. Go yell at the clouds, unhappy prick.
So I currently own an 8th gen and I'm absolutely in love with it. It does need a bit more power in today's age but for what it's worth it's a wonderful machine. Is the hype about gti's really true? My only concern is of course the reliability end of them.
I love it when you two don't see eye to eye on something and you get into a passionate, friendly debate. So invigorating compared to other channels where they phone in the same format week to week. It's also great for learning because y'all really get into it and raise good points.
Why doesn’t Honda sell the American spec Si and Canadian spec Si in the US? Just call the Canadian spec car something like the Civic Si Touring and sell it as another trim level… I get that these cars are low volume, but if they are already making both cars, it seems odd not to sell them both in both markets.
@@daviddavis1322 He's suggesting that Honda sell BOTH the American spec Si and the Canadian spec Si in the USA. In effect, the American spec Si is an Si-EX (based off EX trim), and Candadian spec Si is an Si-Touring (based off Touring trim specs).
The shifter looks almost exactly like the one in the 2014 Acura ILX manual I had for a couple years. The shift knob felt sleek but upscale, and the shifting was very smooth. Probably the best feel of any car I’ve had, and in par with my ND1 Miata.
I think this is a big step forward for auto makers. A bigger split in price between trim levels is awesome for people who value mechanical components and not the latest tech features.
I've been a Honda guy since the 90's but the new Elantra N is a very compelling option especially when every Honda dealer I've seen has a markup on the Si. I hope you guys have an Elantra N video planned because all the reviews I've seen so far have been nothing but positive.
That's funny ive been telling my wife the same thing. Been with Honda for a long time but for the price it's going to be hard to beat the N. Plus let's not even get started on the rev hang
Excellent point about damping changes in cold weather. I had a track prepped STi with KW V3’s. In summer, the ride on the road was acceptable, on track wonderful. In deep winter, the ride became unbearable, especially as the roads got torn up. Made me appreciate that a great winter car is never the same as a great summer car and certainly not a track car. Oil just gets much more viscous at low temps. If u have little damping, u may not notice a temp change, but performance cars with real damping will vary much more with temperature.
I can't get over the fact that for a good while prior to Covid, you could get the 10th gen Si for $22k all day long. Amazing that we've had over 5K of price increase in just a few years, despite having fewer features.
Tarifs and increased mineral prices are adding each others. The chip shortage and the bloated prices of now are also not helping, but thiis last one is only temporary.
@@boboutelama5748 it has nothing to do with tariffs, it is because of supply chain issues and dealerships over hyping the shortage. Tariffs were in place far before covid messed everything up and prices did go up then.
Don’t feed the beast. Over MSRP and extra fees are Scammy. I would avoid ANY purchases until this settles down, and discounts are back, cars can be bought under MSRP.
+1, got my 2020 Si in Nov 2019 for $22k. Kind of depressing that all the sudden nearly the same car is pushing $30k. Going to keep my 10th gen Si until I'm ready for a dedicated 3rd track car.
Really happy with my 2020 Si, it's the peak of the 10th gen. I have the type R LED headlights, honda sensing, and the updated bumpers along with heated seats, fog lights, adaptive suspension, dual zone climate, etc that the 2022 doesn't have.
Got a 2019 and I agree. Don’t care for Honda sensing at all but the 2021 definitely seems like a downgrade from my 2019. Also fuck Honda for getting rid of the coupe. The styling doesn’t make this stand out from a base model civic.
Ditto, I’ll stick with the 10 th gen all day long with what comes std on it. I had a 2018 Si that was just a tad under 25k and now a 2020 that was approx 26k. The 11th gen Loses creature comforts here in the US and goes up in price, I’ll sit this gen out and wait till Honda smartens up. The current 11th gen Si looks like an accord and grew in size too I believe. I can wait
It's exactly what they wanted. I refuse to overpay for anything. I will keep my current perfectly running car until such time when vehicles are reasonably priced again.
This is one of the best if not best car vides I’ve ever seen. I love the details and I really love that you understand the different positions people are in. I’m that college kid you are describing where this will be my everything car. Well done, loved this
The Si is the fun commute car - owned a 10th gen Si for 4 years and its easily the best daily civic Honda ever made at the time (2017) The chassis rigidity and geometry are leaps and bounds better than previous gens - when I fully turned off the nannies on the Si it would rotate/4 wheel drift in tight hairpins ....controlable yaw....it was softer than my FA5 Si on koni yellows/neuspeed race springs but soaked up road harshness better and was still willing to play. It impressed me so much that I bought a Type R before they stopped making them....all the attributes the Si had but on steroids. More revs, more power. more grip. more yaw, better seats, better shifter, better aero, better brakes ....the chassis had so much potential Honda easily made a next level car with basically the same chassis. At 27k its below the avg price of a new car by about 8k making it an economical choice....if you drive it like I did (22mpg avg) you probably want more power lol They carried over alot of 10th gen R parts for this new car so its probably even closer to my R than my 10th gen Si. Thats a great thing. While the VW may have a touch more power out of the box their engines gunk up with carbon pretty quickly and their valvetrain is known to have issues. The 1.5t is a global engine for Honda and aftermarket support has produced 500+whp stock engine versions that run 10s@130+ Even just FBO + e30 tune ran 12.3@113 which is pretty quick for a commuter car. The Honda will be the more reliable choice in the end and hold its value longer given demand for it. Remember out of 330k civics sold per year.....only 15,000 are Si models.....5000 type Rs These lower volume civics hold their value as demand is consistent for them as long as the car runs and even as long as it isnt wrecked in some cases. Ill have to drive one to see how the new chassis feels but it should be a solid canvas for kids who can grow into it and modify it as their budget allows - over 5 or 6 years of ownership 400+hp is easily attained or the itch for an R is started
I respect your opinion about the Civic, but I’d disagree with what you said about the VW; the 2.0 engine is pretty bulletproof in the mark 7’s because it’s been slowly improved upon for 12 years old now. (Any GDI is gonna carbon up, not excluding the Civic)
@@leonkloonsner Can you link me to a stock block 2L VW making 650whp on stock block like the K20c1 does - thanks Im sure since its "bulletproof" there should be plenty of 2L VWs doing it
@@TheFK8Life Moral of the story: I’m not against the Honda but if you compare these engines from a durability standpoint - VW makes more EA888s than Honda’s L15 or K20, and they’ve been making them for longer - VW has been able to iron out most of the kinks turn it into a reliable engine. Both engines (K20 and EA888) are respectable for what they are but neither is without problems. But the latest VW’s should be less problem-prone then the Honda. I’m not sure why you’d want to put over 500 hp into a 3000lbs FWD car (total shit show), and the Civic isn’t available with a Haldex system to put the power down making it absolutely asinine. But if you want to do that, VW’s has one of the biggest aftermarket communities so it’s cheap and easy to do. Plus you can get a Golf with AWD. 500-700hp EA888’s: ruclips.net/video/5og40PaU_FM/видео.html ruclips.net/video/97B6qaP70BU/видео.html
@@leonkloonsner You think the EA888 has more production than K20s and K24s which have proven to make 600+whp as well? Not even close VWs are lucky to touch over 400whp before snapping rods and the 1.5t has proven itself to take 500whp ultimately popping with a nitrous hit above 550whp VW engines are not durable - in 25 years of racing I have yet to see a VW engine outperform a Honda engine apples to apples....once Honda made the K20a it cemented its position above the germans Naturally aspirated K series engines trounce anything VW has - VW knowing they couldnt compete went turbo decades ago My B18C5 EK hatch was outrunning 1.8t Golfs with tunes and bolt-ons in the early 2000s - today I could easily build a 10 sec all motor EK - I cant say the same for an all motor VW setups Ive seen too many VW valvetrain failures, dropped valves etc - I worked at VW for a time and was shocked by the number of warranty claims in the bays for the TFSi engines No engine is perfect but side by side the Honda K20 vs the VW 2L is no contest .....theres a reason you see big power K series swaps in everything vs VW 2L setups
@@leonkloonsner 500whp fwd is a total shit show? lmfao Meanwhile a 5xx whp Civic Type R is running 1:50s at Buttowillow - the new GT3 RS on slicks runs 1:52 on the same track You clearly dont know much about racing if you think a measly 500whp is a shit show for an R - the whole point of their front knucle design is to put massive power down thru the front wheels - its why I bought one The lesser civic forks/suspension arms/front geometry cannot lay the power down I doubt you have even ridden in a 5 or 600whp R let alone driven one ruclips.net/video/5xRIGWGQGdQ/видео.html
I would love to own one but dealer mark ups are going to kill this car. I’ve seen from 8,000-15,000$ mark ups on this car. And for that price, is a “hell na”!!!
I’ve been trying to purchase a 2022 civic at MSRP for the last two months. Impossible, every Honda dealer is trying to overcharge me, it’s infuriating.
A very good review covering all the major points. You can debate what the car could be optioned with or should it have more power etc. I think Honda got it right for the most part. The car does so much so well there's little it gives up to the competition. I must add- I just drove my new Blazing Orange Si 1330 miles from Rochester, NY to Seminole, FL in temps as low as 10 degrees and even passing through the nightmare of I-95 in Virginia on Tuesday. The Civic performed like a champ and I didn't miss heated seats.The Civic Si is an incredible value for what I paid. ($2K Over MSRP) In spite of a firm ride, the car's seats are incredibly comfortable and I did not find the cabin noise level an issue. I drive without the radio on- that's the way I roll and I made the trip in 22 hours without feeling fatigued. I drive this route 2-3 times a year and in the past I have made the trip in a 280HP Alfa Romeo Giulia, a 505 HP Alfa Romeo Giulia Quadrifoglio and a 265 HP Chevy Impala. After 1330 miles I'd rate the overall driving experience from fun factor to fatique factor as Giulia Quadrigfolio #1, Honda Civic Si #2, Giulia Ti Sport #3 and Chevy Impala #4. The MSRP on the Giulia Quadrifoglio- $91,765., Honda Civic Si- MSRP, $28,315. I'd say the Honda engineers have built a winner, especially considering the price! For the record, the Giulia Ti Sport was MSRP of $45,500. in 2017 and the Chevy Impala was $32,000 in 2015. Guys, you did a very honest review, and yes my suspension and ride quality seemed to soften up the warmer the temps got as I traveled south. By the time I got to Florida around 9 at night it was up to 56 degrees.
My father bought a 1976 Accord hatchback when I was high school to replace our 1971 Chevy Vega. I was amazed how much fun it was to drive. During your test drive it took me back to that memory.
Love these guys and the comparison to the Canadian situation greatly appreciated. This and Throttle House is all one needs to get very balanced, solid and entertaining car reviews!! 🎉🇺🇸🇨🇦🎉
Thank you for this review. I used this video as my main research when I was shopping for a car last year. 12 months later and I still enjoy driving my Si. Keep up the good work guys!
Another top-notch review that sets you guys apart from everyone else in this genre. Loved the real-world review of driving in northern IL winter. Loved the banter back & forth comparing the Si to its competitive set. Really brought a new level of insight to anyone shopping in this class of vehicle. Bravo!
There's something "too compromising " and "over-priced" about the new Civic Si.(U.S Market)..KIA Forte GT has the same horsepower as the Civic. 201hp to be exact. It's $2k-$3k less. But has way more features like 10 way power seats, wireless phone charger, heated and ventilated seats, rear USB charging ports and vents, 10.2 inch screen with navigation, and choice of 6spd Manual or 7spd Dual-Clutch. It's just have me thinking that Honda is just making a cop-out excuse to not add the same features or similar to the Canadian market. I'm with Mark, for an extra $3k, I get the Elantra N. This is a $27k car with $21k car features. 🤷🏾♂️
I'm a 50+ year old dad who just bought the 2023 Civic SI in Canada. I spent 3.5 years with a 2019 2.0T Accord manual, and I was ready to stop driving manual. I loved that 2.0T motor and steering, but despised the abrupt clutch, brakes, and jumpy ride. It felt like I was driving a video game. I turned down the 2019 SI due to potential oil dilution issues and lame-ass styling. I love my '23 SI. I gotta agree with Mark about the suspension....It's awesome. I love the conservative styling with a few red highlights, the seats, the clutch, transmission, and how easy it is to drive with or without the rev matching. I just have to take out that damn artificial engine noise and it's perfect. The Accord was a one wheel peel, especially in the snow. The LSD in the SI makes it much better in inclement weather. Great review.
I got a call from my local Honda dealer, I've bought 2 Civics(Touring, Si) from them in the last 5 years. It was Jack, he goes by Sales-Jack(I'm not joking). Sales-Jack says "Eric, we've got 4 Si's in our inventory I thought you might want to give one a test drive". I replied "I see, do you have the color I want?". He quickly replied, "I've got two Rallye Reds, one Sonic Gray Pearl, and one Blue". I said "Aegean Blue Metallic?". There was a pause, he said "Yes Eric, I've got 1 Aegean Blue Metallic in stock". I said "great, what about the Savagegeese video?". A long pause this time, Sales-Jack finally blurts out "Eric, I promise you this Si is the best Si ever, interior, exterior, engine torque, you name it this Si's got it, you won't even notice loud road noise, I guarantee it!" I said "Alright SJ, I'm gonna take your word for it, I'l be right down. Also, I hope to God I'll be test driving the Aegean Blue instead of some Ralleye Red". I quickly hung up the phone before he had a chance to reply. I grabbed my jacket and hopped in my Touring and darted up to the Honda lot. Upon entering the sales lobby I immediately yelled out "Where the hell is Sales-Jack up in this bitch!" The whole lobby went deadly silent..so silent you could hear a pin drop, everybody I looked at quickly averted their eyes. Finally, in what seemed like an eternity I saw a hand go up, and then a man meekly peek out above his cubicle wall. It was Sales-Jack. I said "alright SJ, you got me here now it's time you deliver on your promise". Sales-Jack seemed to maintain his composure, he walked around the numerous cubicles and came within 5 steps of my Florsheim's. We locked eyes, he didn't blink. I slowly..very slowly.. walked 4 steps towards him until we were nose to nose. I said "SJ, I'm just letting you know, if this Si has loud road noise, we're gonna have a problem". Sales-Jack throat tightened, he took a big gulp and squeaked out "I understand Eric, I'm ready to ride when YOU SAY you're ready". I stared at his cobalt eyes and said "SJ, I'm ready right the fwuck NOW!". Sure enough, Sales-Jack delivered on his promise to test drive the Aegean Blue. I told him to hold on to the FOB as I slid into the driver's seat. He guided me around the neighborhood and after he directed me a few turns I just raised my right hand and said "No more of this namby-pamby crap I'm taking this out on the highway. He didn't say one word. Within a few minutes we were on the 70 and I was flying at over 80 MPH. Still, SJ didn't say anything, I think he knew. After 5 miles I took the off ramp and turned around and back on the same highway back to the dealer lot. I parked the Si, we walked back into the lobby, more silence. Finally, an assistant manager had the balls to come up to me and ask "Eric, you've driven the 11th generation Civic Si, are you satisfied? ready to negotiate a deal? I didn't reply right away. I took one long, long look around the deadly quiet sales lobby. No one had the guts to even look at me. I said "Partner, we've got a problem, A BIG PROBLEM" Both the manager and Sales-Jack turned white as a ghost, speechless. I finally decided to break the silence and said "You two know what I'm thinking?" They didn't reply right away, they just stared at each other hoping the other one would pipe up. After what seemed like an eternity, Sales-Jack built up the courage and squeaked out one word "Mazda?" I just said "Yep", turned around and walked out as the whole lobby erupted in applause. The End.
I love the comment about being in reality, not the canyons of California! Most viewers/buyers are in colder climates with some or a lot of snow. One of the things I love about your channel is that you are in cold snowy reality and bring that to your reviews!! Great job as always gentlemen!! 👏
Nice review! I am an old guy and I was seriously looking at one of these. I think that in the end a great shifter and pedal box isn’t enough for me to give up heated seats and leather and such. If I were to buy a car in this class I would likely go with the 2022 VW GLI at 32K. Heated seats matter to me because after 5 spinal surgeries I find I like to keep the heated seats on a lot. Because I live in Texas I like the GLI’s ventilated seats as well. I can live with the VW shifter. My other issue is that Honda dealers don’t seem to be selling these anywhere near sticker. Kind of defeats Honda’s purpose in trying to keep the price low. For the extra 5K the dealers are charging they could have included a lot of equipment.
exactly, they should've compared the civic with the gli instead of the gti. I'm with jack on this one. GTI was my first vehicle purchase out of college and it was miles ahead of the civic. They've done a great job with the type R in recent years but it's still hideous and i'd never pull go the office in a car that offensive looking.
@@Momosun2018 “I’d never pull into an office in a car that offensive looking.” I don’t think I need to tell you that you should be buying cars for YOU, and not the approval of your colleagues.
@@Momo_8k Agreed, I buy what I like. That said, I think it is okay to be aware of your "surroundings" per se. I liked the gti and didn't get care what others thought about the hatchback look.
I test drove this car. It’s Definitely worth it at msrp. Seats are very comfortable. The ride is not harsh. It’s quick in sports mode. It looks respectable. Resale value is great
Really appreciate seeing the debate you guys were having about the car. Seeing genuine thoughts even when in disagreement is really nice as a viewer, especially when you both bring up good points
Love, love, love this channel!! The critical perspectives of the cars and the brilliant quality of the content make this site a MUST for any car enthusiast! Well done gentlemen!
So glad I went with a Type-R for the 11th gen. I had a 2020 Civic Si Coupe, and I think compared to the 11th gen Si, that was more of a sports car, which also gave you a lot more for your money. The fact that it had an adjustable suspension gave it a dual personality, when you wanted to commute or drive to the store, it was nice and smooth, but if you wanted a sports car, you threw in it sport and everytbing would sharpen up along with a stiffer suspension. The availability of the Honda adjustable HFP suspension you could get for it made it even better, smoother, and more sporty, along with some aftermarket springs you had an amazing sports car ride at that point. The 10thgen had heated seats, and fog lights, and a normal dash with nothing missing. You lose all that with the 11th gen Si...sure you can fix a lot of the issues with the aftermarket, but the car costs more than the previous gen, and you get less for it...somehow it just isnt as exciting or seem as good of a deal anymore. The loss of the coupe is another detriment...god how wish for a revival of proper 4 seater coupes again...How sick would an 11th gen Si or even a Type-R in a coupe would've been.
@@a124as Nah Type-R doesn't have 'em either. Honda had to hold something back for the refresh I guess. When they do come out with 'em I'm sure u could retro fit them...or just put custom one's in. As foe heated seats...I could see where some colder places might want them. But I prefer the lighter seats without them. The Alacantara seats aren't really a problem in the cold for me anyway.
Engineered and designed in Japan...say no more; I'm sold. Huge improvement on this gen...shame we can't have double wishbones back like the old days but....hey....
It’s a good time to be alive, these cars are good cars (VW and Hyundai) and having the possibility to see what each one is capable of really brings conversations to the table. Great video Mark, and I think Jack Germany is still fighting over this .
A comparo video of those 3 cars would really be awesome if you guys can get them at the same time! Throw in a WRX, as well, and then I think there's a lot of good choices at around $30k +/- $2k.
Almost bought a previous gen Si but took home an Accord Sport 2.0t instead. Honda pulling things that made the Si special/liveable to me such as adaptive dampers, heated seats, dual zone climate control, etc is a major let down to me.
@@jamesmedina2062 yes the back seat especially was cavernous although we did sell it and replace it with a ‘21 Odyssey EX-L. Same infuriating push button shifter though…
I watched a review that just came out on the Civic Si and then re-watched yours, back-to-back. Without question, yours was the superior review, as the other was basically just reading off the spec sheet and then taking it for a drive. The depth of knowledge you have of the technical details, and how you connect this with the economic reality that Honda had to take into consideration when producing the vehicle, really sets you apart. Without a doubt, you are the review channel for the enthusiast.
It'll be enough for people who want something bulletproof reliable and still fun to drive. I think they did a great job with it but the loss of some equipment sucks.
I don’t think I’d agree with the bulletproof part. Yes the manual is better than the rubber band they use, but there’s some underlaying electrical issues and tech problems Hondas seem to have anymore. My last had some issues I’d expect from something like a GM or a FCA pile, not a Honda. Still, a better offering than Hyundai or VW if longevity is a primary concern
@@Ethan7s Not from my experience. 80's and '90s Hondas had few endemic mechanical issues I saw repeatedly that didn't go back to negligence or abuse. Unless you start talking about those AC systems. Even my dad's '89 CBR was bulletproof. Two of my family's Civics cleared 320K miles before the odometers quit working, at which point they were sold (and totaled by family members). Actually, the second least reliable vehicle I've owned or has been in my family is my current Toyota, a 2001 MR2 Spyder. Before 150K miles, I've already replaced: - Brake lines - E- brake cables - Rear brake calibers (seized) - Exhaust manifold header - Main cat - Clutch - Clutch slave cylinder - Transmission - Various hoses and gaskets - Motor (with post '03 1ZZ-FE due to factory cat-failure) - AC compressor - Driver's side window regulator
Watching you guys at the end of the drive reminded me of what I used to tell people about my Focus ST, it was too big to be small, too slow to be fast, too uncomfortable to be a daily (the Recaro's were NOT workin for me) and too numbed out for a more "up market" feel. Traded it for a base Fiesta ST and haven't missed it ONE bit! I think you set the tone right for this Civic, if I were going to test drive it, I'd go in with better, more realistic expectations. Very interesting take on the older Si to. Got me thinking and you're right, the amazing ones in my memory all had a LOT of aftermarket in them.
My unsolicited two cents on that last bit: Older will always be lighter, cheaper, smaller, less mechanically complex, less assisted, louder in the real, and cooler looking overall. The speed discrepancy is less an issue the lighter and smaller the car is. 60 in a paper thin CRX will always feel more invigorating than 80 in a numbed out new Si. With regulations, new cars just can't compete with the '90s in terms of sheer simplicity and the associated joys of lightweight economy/ sports cars.
The Fiesta ST is like the last modern car that is like a 90’s car. Currently remaining is the Veloster Turbo I think, which is where the Si is probably loosing ground. Its more of an Accord sport light vs Civic Si
For a different perspective on Canada vs US markets and Ford vs Honda: I have a Canadian 2015 Fiesta SE 1.6 5MT. Out the door (including after 14% tax) it was $21K CAD. The Fiesta ST *sticker* price in Canada was $30K meanwhile the Focus ST was $34K. It made no sense to buy a Fiesta ST here because they were so stupidly expensive, even the dealers I spoke with agreed and they were a rare sight on dealer lots.
Really well executed car for somebody who wants something sporty and can only have one car. Its decent at everything. Y'all really set the standard for technical reviews. Great banter as well. High-five
If we get the Canadian Spec Si in the States and not get screwed over by the stealerships (some are marking up the Si by $20k!!) then yes this car is more than enough. Edit. I would like to add, I’m a current 10th gen 2018 Si coupe owner. I haven’t had a single issue nor am I experiencing oil dilution. I have my car serviced at Honda and they have treated me extremely well. When I had my Hyundai, Hyundai dealership was a terrible experience. That alone will keep me away from Hyundai/Kia products.
'Poverty model' while I understand... but when words have meaning, sounds like an intellectual indulgence on your end. That being said I really like the not trying to hide it, real world, winter-dirty aesthetic filming of this car. As always, your technical analysis, eye candy style and back and forth banter keep me coming back. Another great video.
This car is great, I wish the Integra was more of a step up from the si. If it had brembo breaks, 240 whp, and all the luxury items left off the civic. It should have the adaptive dampers. The si at 27k is a great car.
I’m not positive that the breaks in the unveiling will be the breaks on the production car. But you’re right, it seems to have a set of “high performance” breaks. Still think it should get the rest. I just don’t know what the car is going to be. More of high performance version that the Honda or a more luxury car.
@@singular9 Well, I recently overpaid for an ‘18 Focus RS, so I shouldn’t comment on prices, however at least the RS looks different than anything else. This SI just looks like a regular sedan to me.
I like that Mark and Jack can argue and disagree about something but still remain professional and respectful toward one another. Refreshing in todays world.
This car makes me a bit excited for the integra because I feel like it shores up all the short comings of the si. Let’s see what options they give you at 30k.
You've seen the next Integra, right? I wouldn't describe anyone's excitement level for that next car to even rise to the level of "a bit." The only car company that disappointed people worse in recent years was Mitsubishi with the new "Eclipse."
@@12ealDealOfficial I get the disappointment but I’m keeping an open mind as to the final results. I actually think the civic looks better, however the integra could still be a great car. If not I’ll vote with my money towards something else.
Loving my 23 civic si. I wouldn’t ever purchase a car without watching one of your reviews on it first. Love your content. The 11 gen Si is the perfect daily in my opinion. Good choice on getting the type R. I’m in the hunt for one now!
I appreciate how the car appears more mature, and the interior really does look great. I'm in a Fiesta ST right now and this car is what I would upgrade to... once I fall out of love with the Fiesta ST
You never fall out of love with the ST, you think you do, and then you realize the mistake you've made. As someone who had their wife wreck and total my ST...I miss it every day. Nothing I have driven comes close to the ST. On paper, the Si seems like an obvious "up market" replacement for the FiST. But it's just not. Sure, the interior is nicer, the rear has more room, there is an actual LSD, but despite all that, the car feels a literal ton heavier than the scrawny Fiesta. The steering is slow, and even with the LSD, is prone to push heavily into understeer. Plus the lack of fog lights, and the half digital dash, and the general heavy handed "corner cutting" done on the trim level, actually makes it feel cheaper than the Fiesta, like you're missing things you shouldn't...I know that sounds weird, but believe me, you are left wanting, and wondering why things aren't there. As a FiST owner, the Si, despite the great economy, and similar horsepower on paper, doesn't have even similar driving dynamics, and doesn't produce smiles like the FiST did. Like the trim level omissions, the driving dynamics don't feel as immediate or as unobtrusive as true FiST. The First didn't need sport mode, it didn't have noticable rev hang in weird places. The chassis stability control didn't kick in at odd times. It's not that way in the Si, sure it's a better daily driver, and will probably have betterish resale value, but it doesn't get out of the way of the driving experience like the FiST. It feels like any other civic, buy with a little more torque. Personally, I would wait to see what they do after they Integra is released (which will likely have all the features the Si didn't, in order to justify the higher price tag and the Acura badge) to see if they spec it properly before I would even considered getting one. For me, it will either be a Hyundai Kona N, or the upcoming GR Corolla. The Kona gives similar "this is just stupid" grins like the Fiesta did, but the 8 speed makes it feel dull at times. I also worry that the GR Four Corolla will suffer the same dealer price gauging as the Type-R, making it feel well out of reach. The Si may be many good things, but it's not a FiST replacement. Love your Fiesta, you will miss it when it's gone. :(
@@bigbuckoramma lol I hope no one else takes time to read your inaccurate rant. LMAO I came from a FBO+BT FiST with debt goody you wish you could have had on yours. So, I guess I can say a little about you being inaccurate about how the Si will never come close to the FiST! The FiST is an Ecobox boosted up, and you’re saying that the Si with a real sorry chassis is not comparable. Get outta here dude
@@SWEETVENOM100 The first thing that should be addressed about your shit post, is that it is painfully obvious you havent spent a single second behind the wheel of a Civic Si. So, I guess you could say, youre really not qualified to be talking about...anything. And what do you think the Civic Si is? Its a boosted up econobox! LOL! It literally has all of the same tweaks done to it that the ST had done. I.E. Stiffer bushings, special dampers, beefier control arms. Special engine tune. Lighter flywheel. Etc. Except the ST took it a bit further with bigger brakes. Special pad compounds. NO Rev Hang. Factory chassis bracing, and beefier subframes, and modifies steering rack and knuckles to increase the steering ratio. But we will give an extra tick to the Si for having a legit LSD. You act as if the Si chassis is superior because its newer? Its literally a bigger, heavier car, in every dimension, with a longer wheelbase, and a more forward weight bias. So, yes...it understeers more, and its less sporty feeling. SHOCK: Bigger Cars Feel Slower! NEWS AT 10! Also might i add that the ST was specifically tuned to be an unstable car. To three wheel when pushed. To be very snap oversteer happy on trail braking. Sport Mode was specifically tuned to allow the car to step out more under lift throttle oversteer without taking the traction control fully off (if you bothered to go to the ST Driving Academy, you would know that). The Si, on the other hand, is tuned like...wait for it...A CIVIC! And is more prone to understeer, and is "safe" in its tuning, which is typical of Honda on everything that doesnt have a Type-R badge. Again, the fact you cant accept this fact proves that you have never driven an Si, and dont understand basic physics. And finally, no one cares what bolt ons you had on your car. Literally irrelevant. My FiST wasnt stock either. It had a full set of TB Performance chassis braces. It had a Wavetrac LSD. It had a set of inverted tarmac R2 Fiesta dampers built off of Reiger Cores out of Poland. It had a full skid plate. It had a set of Diode Dynamic rally spot lights, and fog lights. And a bunch of other shit i am not going to waste mentioning, because its pointless to having a pissing contest. But for waht its worth...I think i had a few more "debt goodies you wish you could have" on my car than you did. I also bought my car back from the insurance company for pennies, pulled the parts off of it, and turned around and sold the bits to fellow local FiST enthusiasts. And between what the insurance company paid me out for the car (which was substantial because between inflation, car shortages, and increased rarity, the prices of FiST's has gone UP, they are now selling for close to 25k), and what i was able to pull off and sell, I have 18k to go towards purchasing something else. And with the way the market is going, and as disappointing as the Si was, it will either be a Kona N (though i want the 6 speed of the Elantra N, but i think it is too big, like the Si), or more likely the GR Four Corolla when it comes out. As i am a bit of a rally nerd. But hey, I wont bring up my racing background, or the fact that i do rally driving instruction either. But thanks for playing dude.
Heated seats are on everything but the base trim of most cars in Canada. My Canadian CX-30 has heated mirrors and a heated windshield wiper as well. Canadians are really big on winter-related features, even though half of us live south of the forty-ninth parallel.
Hello from Montreal, you forgot heated stirring wheel….can’t believe let’s say five years ago we didn’t have any of that. Even all wheel drive didn’t exist. Take care
Both of your commentary on the SI vs the competition is so insanely accurate. It’s so refreshing to hear you two go back and forth the way real car guys have a debate. I’m a long term Euro guy (VW specifically), every thing you’ve discussed is spot on to how I feel, not just the generic banter but genuine concerns. The MK8 interior has completely pushed me out as you said, I am absolutely cross shopping the SI and the soon to be Type R; specifically in trying to see if the money is worth it. Honestly you’re now my go to car review channel. Thank you for being so detailed. I look forward to when you get your hands on the new Type R.
I feel very strongly about this, I've had to rewrite this like 3 times. Bare with me. I'm someone who 28k, is like 80k. I want a sports car. I could stretch to a Type-R at MSRP, but actually getting one is impossible. I think Si buyers specifically are looking for quality over quantity. However I'd argue people in the market, that the Si is in, are it it for quantity over quality. They aren't looking for a daily with some performance. They are looking for performance, that they can daily. That being said, I'm personally right on the fence of buying Si or Elantra N. I appreciate the attention to detail and amazing feel of the Si, but the Elantra N is much faster, and loud, just straight fun, after all..... that's why I'm in the market for something more than just an ecobox. (again Type-R wins, if it wasn't physically possible to get one for reasonable price).
I feel you on this. I was really hoping the Si would punch out more performance than this. I can totally appreciate that it'll be a fantastic daily driver that can be sporty, but Id also prefer a sporty car that can be daily-ed. Thankfully interior space isn't a concern for me so I'm strongly leaning towards the GR86/BRZ twins. Its a shame the Type-R is as expensive as it is otherwise it would be the easiest decision ever.
SavageGeese, the one place where the glamour shots of a brand new 2022 vehicle are the most heinous, disgusting muck-soaked realistic example of use. I love you.
Manufacturers include certain requirements for low temperatures damping forces in the specification for the shock absorbers. This is influenced by the oil specification, friction (rod guide, piston banding) and the setting (bleed disc specification mainly if I’m not mistaken). When the shock absorber supplier does the validation of the parts, the damping forces at minus twenty or minus forty have to be within a certain percentage compared to the values at twenty degrees. And then I suppose Honda would have done a subjective validation at low temperatures, probably at their testing tracks in Hokkaido, so that there is an acceptable delta in terms of performance and comfort compared to the driving at normal temperatures. So theoretically there should not be such a big difference when testing the car in California or in Illinois, but this being a brand new car, there might be some dispersion in the first batches of dampers which could explain those differences.
Love respectful arguments like this. Maybe only the straight pipes have some cars where they disagree this much and it’s refreshing to see. I love throttle house by the way, I just can’t recall seeing them disagree lol. Lastly, VOTE WITH YOUR WALLET! I think the GTI is better in a lot of ways too but I really hope more people consider other brands until they fix the infotainment. Feel really bad for people who spend hard earned money on a first year GTI that will inevitably have a better infotainment in a few years and they’ll be SOL. Great video guys.
Great to hear the different views. I wish the gti had the sunroof and traditional ac volume, infotainment controls, and manual helical limited slip of this.' to get a gti with a sunroof is 35K, its faster but it has a electronic lsd using brakes, and is very artificial feeling, i still like it though, but would have to forgo the sunroof at about $31K, that 3K more, and a simple hondata tune for 600 would give si similar power, and still get way better mileage, although the hatch is good for bulky items, in practice, if you don't fill it it the top, the trunk can have more room and hold longer items, and have much better rear seat room. I am upset there is no handbrake anymore, no honda lane watch, that was amazing safety feature, or heated seats or dual climate, , or like canada, rear usb, heated seats front and rear, larger full digital dash, shift lights, parking sensors, fog lights, mirror turn signals, and more? For those that need the large hatch opening the integral is the si to buy, and it will probably get all those canada si goodies for 30K even, and be listed at 220hp, which the SI is actually at already, you will lose cargo length by 6 inches though, so there is always a trade off. As a side note, if possible don't buy any new car, if you cannot get it at msrp, if you do, you will just encourage them to continue the practice.
I have the sister car, the Integra A-spec with 6MT. My car and the Civic SI are almost identical. After driving 5000 miles in my Integra I can tell you that your closing thoughts are spot on. The car doesn’t pretend to be anything else than an affordable, fun, daily. It’s engaging and a hoot to drive. It reminds me of when I was eight-years-old and my parents agreed to buy me a 5 hp minibike. That thing might as well had been a super GP motorcycle as far as I was concerned. It’s all on how you approach it, and what your expectations are. These are great cars and they are disappearing from the planet and we should all enjoy them while they’re here.
I guess I'm just confused by it's approach and placement in the market.. Less money gets you everything in an Si without a tarted up interior and yet a more comfortable ride and more daily driver features like heated seats, the sameish price gets you the touring which is way more loaded.. Slightly more money gets you things like a mazda 3 turbo sedan where it's only 10% more expensive but makes waaaaaay more power and is just overall nicer inside. Not sure, just seems awkward. If I want a car that's sporty and has a good manual trans I'll get something like a Miata or a GR86 as they're about the same money. If I want a good daily I'll get just a civic or perhaps mazda/hyundai product. It doesn't feel special enough to pay more for less features outside of a slight hp bump and it doesn't feel cheap enough to disregard it's much more sporty brothers.
I think especially considering the dealer markups one of the top commenters mentioned, if you get Si with 6k markup you're in Mazda 3 premium territory, right?
I feel exactly like you @HalcyonSunset. If you want a sporty car you'd go for a type R. If you want to save money, there are better offerings. The Si is in a kinda of a niche spot.
@@xzst Yeah I think its just a massive compromise in all areas. It does most things pretty well, but nothing really well. Its not the most sporty, its not the best interior, it doesnt have the most features. And I know we love the manual, but its honestly probably holding this back from the mass market they want. While enthusiasts who want a manual are probably looking at more serious cars at this price point.
Love your reviews and honesty between you two, makes great content and watchability even if I am not interested in purchasing a new civic. Thanks for making these great videos.
As a Honda SI fan I enjoyed this video a lot. I never thought of the SI as other than a sports car. But from listening to Mark and Mr. Singapore speak. I gotta admit they are good daily cars with a fun factor built in. Hopefully the aftermarket makes these more fun to drive.
The one thing people don’t consider in these videos, which the reviewers can’t really go into, is the reliability and dependability and valuable. Sure, the gti might be better, the Elantra n is more powerful, but in 10 years… we are going to see these around going for 50%to 60% of what you paid for it. You can’t say that for the gti (Ive had two) and the Elantra (there is a reason why they have a 100k mile warranty: they need it).
No coupe and lack of features that the Canadians get as standard. Fake engine noise on a Honda...I'm just going to import a Del Sol SiR, instead. Honestly, that opening scene where he was sitting in the driver with the door open looked like he was sitting in a Dodge Charger.
Someone commented, "have fun getting plowed down by an F250 in your 95 del sol," but I don't see it anymore so I think they deleted it. 1. What does an F250 have to do with a Del Sol? B...the SiR was a 97. Finally, what does any of that have to do with the video or my comment?
Great video and car. This car is exactly what I expected though. No flare, but no games. Get in , enjoy an experience with out very much compromise. Basically Si heritage. I had a 2012 and the cars a much different but it looks like the same mission was completed . Needs a hatch but as predicted, the integra will offer the hatch with added features at a premium cost. Unfortunately. Will be glad to have it but this is more up the conventional Honda wisdom. Thanks again for great content
Almost insulting that they wouldn't at least _offer_ the additional features present on the Canadian variant to Americans as options. How would that be much more complicated? Seems like laziness.
Hello from Montreal, I live in a cold climate not quite 6 months but in the province of Quebec snow tires are mandatory from December to April. With that and owning a few so called sports cars like the golf r and a civic that come with 19” low profile tires with harder suspension. I was able to size down to a 17” tire giving more side wall height, and of course winter tires are softer so there is more give. Like you mention having a dedicated set of rims tires is safer and it prolongs your summer tires. Canadians are super nice people well except when we’ve been drinking with a hockey stick in our hand, but we generally pay a lot more for things and that’s frustrating so when something is cheaper than what’s in the states we celebrate. Get your stick..Great channel.
@@fhowland I grew up in Chicago. I learned to drive in a 1969 Ford Falcon with manual steering and unassisted 4-wheel drum brakes. So I have plenty of experience driving uncomplicated cars. Here is the thing, though: the old days weren't better and heated seats are much more comfortable on a cold day. I choose not to have a cold backside until my car warms up. Heated seats aren't expensive. And if you haven't experienced it, a heated steering wheel is also quite nice.
Thanks for the review, guys! I especially liked the "organized" arguments you had. That, to me, is an interesting and stimulating way to reflect on the car. Great insight!
Man they really dialed back the styling with this staid looking version, compared to the toy car looks of the previous generation. A grown man can now drive this without feeling childish every now and then 🤣 I like it!
there has to be a way to disconnect the fake engine noise from radio/speakers. that's so dumb that manufacturers think people need this and don't give them options to opt out. great video btw!
Bringing Jack on to the channel was such a smart move, in retrospect. Having another well thought out, enthusiast opinion to contrast with Mark's really adds value. Especially when Jack and Mark disagree, and take the time to explain the disagreement.
You know what they say: A North Face pullover AND a Patagonia pullover are better than just a North Face pullover.
You nailed it! I absolutely enjoy when Mark and Jack disagree. They each make great points and great arguments. This channel is legendary, it’s classic, it’s like going back in time to when you were younger fantasizing about cars you’d never be able to afford, and here comes Mark giving you a taste of these vehicles through his channel. It’s really amazing!
Jack has been a great addition to the channel, no question about it.
That being said...
agreed, i wasn’t super crazy about Jack getting added at first, but over time he really improved and i love his contributions
I took a long look at this car a month ago when I was in the market and - yes it’s great in a lot of ways. ESPECIALLY that shifter and the feeling from it. That said, there is a major thing being left out of this video that impacts this car - and almost all new cars in 2022:
Dealer markup. EVERY dealer I contacted had more than a $5k markup on this. The out-the-door price was usually around $36-38k. At that price, this car is just not worth it. The crazy thing is, all these dealerships are selling them.
In the end I picked up a Mk8 GTI. I got it for $500 under MSRP, after a lot of negotiating and I love it. The infotainment needs work, but it’s not the crazy deal breaker all the reviewers say it is. There are a lot of shortcuts baked into it that weren’t covered in any review I saw.
I loved the Civics of the past and I contend that Honda makes the best manuals on the market, bar none. But until this market gets under control and this car is actually being sold for MSRP or less, then it’s just not an option.
Great choice. The GTI a better car in every way.
I appreciate your opinion and ability to compare this in the real world. Could you expand on the infotainment and the things you say aren't covered in any review? It is true for me, after watching the reviews, the infotainment and everything touch/haptic would be a dealbreaker and I wouldn't buy the car for it.
I travelled back home to Europe for work/personal, had rented 2021 B-class, so older MBUX and the two little Blackberry-like touchpads on the steering wheel and that was horrible. Can't imagine having the entire steering wheel controls that way.
In my Bullitt, I love the "older" set up of buttons for everything both on steering wheel and the column. The one sole item buried in infotainment is the heated steering wheel, that's it.
36-38K for a Honda Civic is an absolute joke.
well, in my experience, if you go to a big dealership, chances are higher that you can get the car at invoice with around msrp out the door. probably doesn't work with new gen cars like this one but it's still worth trying if they have a big inventory so they can move big numbers instead.
I’m stalking my Honda dealer and when prices finally come down I will buy one. Until then I’m perfectly happy keeping my old shitbox in mostly one piece. Financial mistakes will punish you for a lifetime.
Mark, Jack, I just gotta say that in the past 2 years I've watched you, your channel quality has easily doubled in my opinion. Your sense of humor is unique and I'm sure doesn't fit everyone's taste, but you provide a great perspective on the daily econoboxes and a fun twist on the performance cars that not everyone does.
Sadly, the "clickbitiness" of RUclips (and lack of your "clickbaitiness," which I appreciate) is why you don't have the 1M subs you badly deserve. :(
They have good chemistry together.
@GABRIELLA How does RUclips not filter these bullshit porn scam comments? I keep reporting them day in day out.
I find myself watching reviews of vehicles i would otherwise have absolutely no interest in watching. They do great work!
True
Amen. It’s crazy with their quality how they don’t have 1M or even close, when the amount of Vlog and Shorts channels can get that in 3 months.
Nobody in RUclips analyzes the cars as good as you do. You talk about the most relevant issues about the cars. This is another great review. It helps me a lot because I am thinking to buy the sport touring or the SI. Thank you guys
Could I ask what you ended up with?
Hard for me to stomach the ~$3000 jump in baseline price considering the features that this loses that the previous generation had. Looks great, but we really needed the Canadian-spec car for this price in the states, IMO.
I'm really enjoying the hybrid presenter format. And really nice to see how far Jack and come from his first videos.
Now get back to reviewing more piles!
Huh, never really thought about it that way, but Jack may well be a hybrid. Ethnically ambiguous at the very least.
Agreed they have great chemistry and Jack is great
I feel right in saying this generation makes me like the Civic as someone who's never owned one
Agreed. I think I'd just get the WRX for this money though but test drives would need to be in order
I wish there was a BRZ based sedan
@@papa_pt I could be in the minority here but I think the new Civic and new WRX look better than their previous gens. This is coming from a guy that has never owned either but now have my attention.
@@thepassinglane I think most agree the new Civic looks better (aside from the jdm nuts), while the WRX not so much. I don't mind the plastic fenders it since it looks the rally part
@@papa_pt I’m with ya on the fenders. Give it time and the fenders will eventually grown on the masses. I don’t think they’re bad and I get the design stand point, and I live in the rust belt.
Looks like an adult Civic SI. Which I like and would definitely get.
I have to agree with Mark the savage geese himself here. The other options might wow you with numbers but this si would be far more enjoyable on a daily basis. It’s Honda giving the enthusiasts a great engineered car at an affordable price
That's true. It's a good all around car but affordable is a bit of a stretch. Just not that long ago SI msrp was $23k, Mazdaspeed 3 was $22k and not only that the dealers are upcharge on the SI is just stupendous high. All said and done you are looking at mid to high $30k Civic SI that is just an okay all around car.
Well said Tim. I'm glad Honda keeps producing reliable products that have appeal to petrol heads.
Usual Honda: it gives you what you need, not what you 'want'. :)
Except they’re not. They’re giving you a car with less features for more money. I have no problem with a stripped out car that just has the bare necessities but the price should reflect that.
@@DJPleasureSeekingMissle “Fewer features” is not necessarily true. Some features you see; some you don’t. Development costs, costs of performance parts, etc. all get factored into the price. Also, inflation…
The thing about the new Si in the US is that you're even losing features that you had in the last generation. You lose heated seats, fog lights, the digital dash, and I believe dual zone climate control from the last generation.
Less features, more $$. no thanks
Don't forget the adaptive dampers
Yeah, heated seats need to be standard now
@@papa_pt For when you're sitting in bumper to bumper traffic
Conversely, I think the slightly stripped down approach is refreshing and the price point it allows is ingenious.
I love when Mark and Jack argue. Just makes me howl. Get that walker Jack.
The added features for us here in Canada is a way of Honda saying thank you for making the Civic the top selling CAR in Canada for the last 23 years.
Now 24 years!
I would put money on every feature the Canadian Si has, ending up on the Integra.
I don't see the dumbing down of the trim level on the Si as anything other than brand engineering trying to justify the price gouging on the upcoming Integra.
We can see this already on how the highest trimmed Civic Touring is more than the Si. So take that, and put an Si drivetrain in it, then sprinkle an Acura badge on it...hello $40k hatchback.
its actually the f150
America baby 🇺🇸 🇺🇸 🇺🇸
@tamegaming1768 really?
@@tamegaming1768i think that’s why the maple man typed “CAR” in caps. There are probably SUV’s and trucks that sell more but not a traditional car
What a great debate and video. This segment is truly one of the most difficult to survive in but I feel like this is truly a strong competitor. It’s the most inexpensive and it does everything good. I personally chose the Elantra N, but I still see the value in the Civic Si
I think Honda's done a good job here by providing a great daily driver with enough fun added at an affordable price.
I had an 8th gen Si sedan which served me well though I eventually upgraded to a mk.6 GTI which offered a more substantial, quieter drive for a bit more $.
In the end, it all depends on your priorities.
Also had the Mk6 GTI in candy white. That cabin was so ahead of its competition at the time. It still looks great.
@R mu Why are you on this thread? It was a car I owned, now I own something more expensive from the sister brand. Go yell at the clouds, unhappy prick.
So I currently own an 8th gen and I'm absolutely in love with it. It does need a bit more power in today's age but for what it's worth it's a wonderful machine. Is the hype about gti's really true? My only concern is of course the reliability end of them.
@R mu Sister brand to VW, not Honda. Take your meds dawgie.
@R mu if you think most people care about performance you are delusional
I love it when you two don't see eye to eye on something and you get into a passionate, friendly debate. So invigorating compared to other channels where they phone in the same format week to week. It's also great for learning because y'all really get into it and raise good points.
Why doesn’t Honda sell the American spec Si and Canadian spec Si in the US? Just call the Canadian spec car something like the Civic Si Touring and sell it as another trim level… I get that these cars are low volume, but if they are already making both cars, it seems odd not to sell them both in both markets.
They will. It’ll be called the integra.
What do you mean by Honda doesn't sell the American spec Si in the US?
@@daviddavis1322 He's suggesting that Honda sell BOTH the American spec Si and the Canadian spec Si in the USA. In effect, the American spec Si is an Si-EX (based off EX trim), and Candadian spec Si is an Si-Touring (based off Touring trim specs).
@@sf98321 But the new Integra is ugly (at least to my eyes).
@@matthewfuller1129 Lets just say both of them are walking in the opposite direction of good looking. By far the weakest part of the appeal.
The shifter looks almost exactly like the one in the 2014 Acura ILX manual I had for a couple years. The shift knob felt sleek but upscale, and the shifting was very smooth. Probably the best feel of any car I’ve had, and in par with my ND1 Miata.
I think this is a big step forward for auto makers. A bigger split in price between trim levels is awesome for people who value mechanical components and not the latest tech features.
I've been a Honda guy since the 90's but the new Elantra N is a very compelling option especially when every Honda dealer I've seen has a markup on the Si. I hope you guys have an Elantra N video planned because all the reviews I've seen so far have been nothing but positive.
I thought the same thing. Elantran N’s mark ups are just as bad unfortunately
Same thing will happen with the Elantra N markups
I've asked a few of the dealerships around me already, all are quoting msrp on the elantra N. I do live in Canada though.
I’ve seen some pretty ridiculous Hyundai and Kia markups at certain dealerships just as bad as Honda.
That's funny ive been telling my wife the same thing. Been with Honda for a long time but for the price it's going to be hard to beat the N. Plus let's not even get started on the rev hang
Excellent point about damping changes in cold weather. I had a track prepped STi with KW V3’s. In summer, the ride on the road was acceptable, on track wonderful. In deep winter, the ride became unbearable, especially as the roads got torn up. Made me appreciate that a great winter car is never the same as a great summer car and certainly not a track car. Oil just gets much more viscous at low temps. If u have little damping, u may not notice a temp change, but performance cars with real damping will vary much more with temperature.
This is the best car channel bar none, period. Mark and Jack keep doing what you do; class act. Cheers.
I can't get over the fact that for a good while prior to Covid, you could get the 10th gen Si for $22k all day long. Amazing that we've had over 5K of price increase in just a few years, despite having fewer features.
Tarifs and increased mineral prices are adding each others. The chip shortage and the bloated prices of now are also not helping, but thiis last one is only temporary.
@@boboutelama5748 it has nothing to do with tariffs, it is because of supply chain issues and dealerships over hyping the shortage. Tariffs were in place far before covid messed everything up and prices did go up then.
Don’t feed the beast. Over MSRP and extra fees are Scammy. I would avoid ANY purchases until this settles down, and discounts are back, cars can be bought under MSRP.
@@djkenny1202 This.
+1, got my 2020 Si in Nov 2019 for $22k. Kind of depressing that all the sudden nearly the same car is pushing $30k. Going to keep my 10th gen Si until I'm ready for a dedicated 3rd track car.
I love your content. High quality, non BS informative content with quite some humour. Keep it up!
Thanks for taking up for this car Mark, only a true enthusiast would do such a thing. Brilliant car. 👏
Really happy with my 2020 Si, it's the peak of the 10th gen. I have the type R LED headlights, honda sensing, and the updated bumpers along with heated seats, fog lights, adaptive suspension, dual zone climate, etc that the 2022 doesn't have.
Got a 2019 and I agree. Don’t care for Honda sensing at all but the 2021 definitely seems like a downgrade from my 2019. Also fuck Honda for getting rid of the coupe. The styling doesn’t make this stand out from a base model civic.
2020 Coupe gang! Let's go!
Yea I'm keeping my Si and never getting rid of it.
I'll buy into the next class in the future.
Ditto, I’ll stick with the 10 th gen all day long with what comes std on it. I had a 2018 Si that was just a tad under 25k and now a 2020 that was approx 26k. The 11th gen
Loses creature comforts here in the US and goes up in price, I’ll sit this gen out and wait till Honda smartens up. The current 11th gen Si looks like an accord and grew in size too I believe. I can wait
Car prices are getting OUT OF HAND. Mark ups on everything coming out. Funny how a "shortage" is resulting in record dealer and company profits
It's exactly what they wanted. I refuse to overpay for anything. I will keep my current perfectly running car until such time when vehicles are reasonably priced again.
@@mpg65 They'll milk you till they can! Way to have common sense 👍
Don't worry, in a few years when interest rates go to double digits to stop inflation, demand will fall and markups will be gone.
@@bigcrowfly Inflation will continue so long as "free" Biden money is given out.
Exactly! It's almost as if all this was planned out.
This is one of the best if not best car vides I’ve ever seen. I love the details and I really love that you understand the different positions people are in. I’m that college kid you are describing where this will be my everything car. Well done, loved this
The Si is the fun commute car - owned a 10th gen Si for 4 years and its easily the best daily civic Honda ever made at the time (2017) The chassis rigidity and geometry are leaps and bounds better than previous gens - when I fully turned off the nannies on the Si it would rotate/4 wheel drift in tight hairpins ....controlable yaw....it was softer than my FA5 Si on koni yellows/neuspeed race springs but soaked up road harshness better and was still willing to play.
It impressed me so much that I bought a Type R before they stopped making them....all the attributes the Si had but on steroids. More revs, more power. more grip. more yaw, better seats, better shifter, better aero, better brakes ....the chassis had so much potential Honda easily made a next level car with basically the same chassis.
At 27k its below the avg price of a new car by about 8k making it an economical choice....if you drive it like I did (22mpg avg) you probably want more power lol
They carried over alot of 10th gen R parts for this new car so its probably even closer to my R than my 10th gen Si. Thats a great thing.
While the VW may have a touch more power out of the box their engines gunk up with carbon pretty quickly and their valvetrain is known to have issues.
The 1.5t is a global engine for Honda and aftermarket support has produced 500+whp stock engine versions that run 10s@130+
Even just FBO + e30 tune ran 12.3@113 which is pretty quick for a commuter car.
The Honda will be the more reliable choice in the end and hold its value longer given demand for it.
Remember out of 330k civics sold per year.....only 15,000 are Si models.....5000 type Rs
These lower volume civics hold their value as demand is consistent for them as long as the car runs and even as long as it isnt wrecked in some cases.
Ill have to drive one to see how the new chassis feels but it should be a solid canvas for kids who can grow into it and modify it as their budget allows - over 5 or 6 years of ownership 400+hp is easily attained or the itch for an R is started
I respect your opinion about the Civic, but I’d disagree with what you said about the VW; the 2.0 engine is pretty bulletproof in the mark 7’s because it’s been slowly improved upon for 12 years old now. (Any GDI is gonna carbon up, not excluding the Civic)
@@leonkloonsner Can you link me to a stock block 2L VW making 650whp on stock block like the K20c1 does - thanks
Im sure since its "bulletproof" there should be plenty of 2L VWs doing it
@@TheFK8Life Moral of the story: I’m not against the Honda but if you compare these engines from a durability standpoint - VW makes more EA888s than Honda’s L15 or K20, and they’ve been making them for longer - VW has been able to iron out most of the kinks turn it into a reliable engine. Both engines (K20 and EA888) are respectable for what they are but neither is without problems. But the latest VW’s should be less problem-prone then the Honda.
I’m not sure why you’d want to put over 500 hp into a 3000lbs FWD car (total shit show), and the Civic isn’t available with a Haldex system to put the power down making it absolutely asinine. But if you want to do that, VW’s has one of the biggest aftermarket communities so it’s cheap and easy to do. Plus you can get a Golf with AWD.
500-700hp EA888’s:
ruclips.net/video/5og40PaU_FM/видео.html
ruclips.net/video/97B6qaP70BU/видео.html
@@leonkloonsner You think the EA888 has more production than K20s and K24s which have proven to make 600+whp as well? Not even close
VWs are lucky to touch over 400whp before snapping rods and the 1.5t has proven itself to take 500whp ultimately popping with a nitrous hit above 550whp
VW engines are not durable - in 25 years of racing I have yet to see a VW engine outperform a Honda engine apples to apples....once Honda made the K20a it cemented its position above the germans
Naturally aspirated K series engines trounce anything VW has - VW knowing they couldnt compete went turbo decades ago
My B18C5 EK hatch was outrunning 1.8t Golfs with tunes and bolt-ons in the early 2000s - today I could easily build a 10 sec all motor EK - I cant say the same for an all motor VW setups
Ive seen too many VW valvetrain failures, dropped valves etc - I worked at VW for a time and was shocked by the number of warranty claims in the bays for the TFSi engines
No engine is perfect but side by side the Honda K20 vs the VW 2L is no contest .....theres a reason you see big power K series swaps in everything vs VW 2L setups
@@leonkloonsner 500whp fwd is a total shit show? lmfao
Meanwhile a 5xx whp Civic Type R is running 1:50s at Buttowillow - the new GT3 RS on slicks runs 1:52 on the same track
You clearly dont know much about racing if you think a measly 500whp is a shit show for an R - the whole point of their front knucle design is to put massive power down thru the front wheels - its why I bought one
The lesser civic forks/suspension arms/front geometry cannot lay the power down
I doubt you have even ridden in a 5 or 600whp R let alone driven one
ruclips.net/video/5xRIGWGQGdQ/видео.html
Love the difference of opinion on this. Big fan of Jack's input. Keep up the good work guys.
I would love to own one but dealer mark ups are going to kill this car. I’ve seen from 8,000-15,000$ mark ups on this car. And for that price, is a “hell na”!!!
What dealers? Not that I don't believe you but I need to see this with my own two eyes on their websites for some Friday lolz.
Don't worry, in 3 years when interest rates will go into double digits the Markups will disappear.
That's insane, the SI is a great value at the $25-$27k range, but over that there are better options...assuming they aren't marked up as well.
Even all regular Civics near me are marked as "Contact dealer for price." No Honda, I don't think I will.
It’s an economy car and don’t see why they would mark it up.
I’ve been trying to purchase a 2022 civic at MSRP for the last two months. Impossible, every Honda dealer is trying to overcharge me, it’s infuriating.
Have patience, this is not a car to pay over MSRP.
With the state of the market that's just about the same story for trying to buy any car unfortunately.
A very good review covering all the major points. You can debate what the car could be optioned with or should it have more power etc. I think Honda got it right for the most part. The car does so much so well there's little it gives up to the competition. I must add- I just drove my new Blazing Orange Si 1330 miles from Rochester, NY to Seminole, FL in temps as low as 10 degrees and even passing through the nightmare of I-95 in Virginia on Tuesday. The Civic performed like a champ and I didn't miss heated seats.The Civic Si is an incredible value for what I paid. ($2K Over MSRP) In spite of a firm ride, the car's seats are incredibly comfortable and I did not find the cabin noise level an issue. I drive without the radio on- that's the way I roll and I made the trip in 22 hours without feeling fatigued. I drive this route 2-3 times a year and in the past I have made the trip in a 280HP Alfa Romeo Giulia, a 505 HP Alfa Romeo Giulia Quadrifoglio and a 265 HP Chevy Impala. After 1330 miles I'd rate the overall driving experience from fun factor to fatique factor as Giulia Quadrigfolio #1, Honda Civic Si #2, Giulia Ti Sport #3 and Chevy Impala #4. The MSRP on the Giulia Quadrifoglio- $91,765., Honda Civic Si- MSRP, $28,315. I'd say the Honda engineers have built a winner, especially considering the price! For the record, the Giulia Ti Sport was MSRP of $45,500. in 2017 and the Chevy Impala was $32,000 in 2015. Guys, you did a very honest review, and yes my suspension and ride quality seemed to soften up the warmer the temps got as I traveled south. By the time I got to Florida around 9 at night it was up to 56 degrees.
My father bought a 1976 Accord hatchback when I was high school to replace our 1971 Chevy Vega. I was amazed how much fun it was to drive. During your test drive it took me back to that memory.
Congrats to Dad for keeping a Vega on the road for 5 years.Lol!
Love these guys and the comparison to the Canadian situation greatly appreciated. This and Throttle House is all one needs to get very balanced, solid and entertaining car reviews!! 🎉🇺🇸🇨🇦🎉
Thank you for this review. I used this video as my main research when I was shopping for a car last year. 12 months later and I still enjoy driving my Si. Keep up the good work guys!
Another top-notch review that sets you guys apart from everyone else in this genre. Loved the real-world review of driving in northern IL winter. Loved the banter back & forth comparing the Si to its competitive set. Really brought a new level of insight to anyone shopping in this class of vehicle. Bravo!
Having two POVs in one video is amazing for the viewer. Love this style
There's something "too compromising " and "over-priced" about the new Civic Si.(U.S Market)..KIA Forte GT has the same horsepower as the Civic. 201hp to be exact. It's $2k-$3k less. But has way more features like 10 way power seats, wireless phone charger, heated and ventilated seats, rear USB charging ports and vents, 10.2 inch screen with navigation, and choice of 6spd Manual or 7spd Dual-Clutch. It's just have me thinking that Honda is just making a cop-out excuse to not add the same features or similar to the Canadian market. I'm with Mark, for an extra $3k, I get the Elantra N. This is a $27k car with $21k car features. 🤷🏾♂️
Also Kia engine go boom boom
@@Tool0GT92 That's just based on your personal vendetta opinion.
Honda has enough fan boys to pay more for less.
Agreed... This Civic needs a whole lotta' brochures strategically placed in the showroom to get my attention. No big deal Honda!
Korea makes its own steel, japan has to import.
Personally Id get the Hyundai solely for its dual clutch.
I'm a 50+ year old dad who just bought the 2023 Civic SI in Canada. I spent 3.5 years with a 2019 2.0T Accord manual, and I was ready to stop driving manual. I loved that 2.0T motor and steering, but despised the abrupt clutch, brakes, and jumpy ride. It felt like I was driving a video game. I turned down the 2019 SI due to potential oil dilution issues and lame-ass styling. I love my '23 SI. I gotta agree with Mark about the suspension....It's awesome. I love the conservative styling with a few red highlights, the seats, the clutch, transmission, and how easy it is to drive with or without the rev matching. I just have to take out that damn artificial engine noise and it's perfect. The Accord was a one wheel peel, especially in the snow. The LSD in the SI makes it much better in inclement weather. Great review.
I got a call from my local Honda dealer, I've bought 2 Civics(Touring, Si) from them in the last 5 years. It was Jack, he goes by Sales-Jack(I'm not joking). Sales-Jack says "Eric, we've got 4 Si's in our inventory I thought you might want to give one a test drive". I replied "I see, do you have the color I want?". He quickly replied, "I've got two Rallye Reds, one Sonic Gray Pearl, and one Blue". I said "Aegean Blue Metallic?". There was a pause, he said "Yes Eric, I've got 1 Aegean Blue Metallic in stock". I said "great, what about the Savagegeese video?". A long pause this time, Sales-Jack finally blurts out "Eric, I promise you this Si is the best Si ever, interior, exterior, engine torque, you name it this Si's got it, you won't even notice loud road noise, I guarantee it!" I said "Alright SJ, I'm gonna take your word for it, I'l be right down. Also, I hope to God I'll be test driving the Aegean Blue instead of some Ralleye Red". I quickly hung up the phone before he had a chance to reply. I grabbed my jacket and hopped in my Touring and darted up to the Honda lot. Upon entering the sales lobby I immediately yelled out "Where the hell is Sales-Jack up in this bitch!" The whole lobby went deadly silent..so silent you could hear a pin drop, everybody I looked at quickly averted their eyes. Finally, in what seemed like an eternity I saw a hand go up, and then a man meekly peek out above his cubicle wall. It was Sales-Jack. I said "alright SJ, you got me here now it's time you deliver on your promise". Sales-Jack seemed to maintain his composure, he walked around the numerous cubicles and came within 5 steps of my Florsheim's. We locked eyes, he didn't blink. I slowly..very slowly.. walked 4 steps towards him until we were nose to nose. I said "SJ, I'm just letting you know, if this Si has loud road noise, we're gonna have a problem". Sales-Jack throat tightened, he took a big gulp and squeaked out "I understand Eric, I'm ready to ride when YOU SAY you're ready". I stared at his cobalt eyes and said "SJ, I'm ready right the fwuck NOW!". Sure enough, Sales-Jack delivered on his promise to test drive the Aegean Blue. I told him to hold on to the FOB as I slid into the driver's seat. He guided me around the neighborhood and after he directed me a few turns I just raised my right hand and said "No more of this namby-pamby crap I'm taking this out on the highway. He didn't say one word. Within a few minutes we were on the 70 and I was flying at over 80 MPH. Still, SJ didn't say anything, I think he knew. After 5 miles I took the off ramp and turned around and back on the same highway back to the dealer lot. I parked the Si, we walked back into the lobby, more silence. Finally, an assistant manager had the balls to come up to me and ask "Eric, you've driven the 11th generation Civic Si, are you satisfied? ready to negotiate a deal? I didn't reply right away. I took one long, long look around the deadly quiet sales lobby. No one had the guts to even look at me. I said "Partner, we've got a problem, A BIG PROBLEM" Both the manager and Sales-Jack turned white as a ghost, speechless. I finally decided to break the silence and said "You two know what I'm thinking?" They didn't reply right away, they just stared at each other hoping the other one would pipe up. After what seemed like an eternity, Sales-Jack built up the courage and squeaked out one word "Mazda?" I just said "Yep", turned around and walked out as the whole lobby erupted in applause. The End.
That was a awesome
Bro wtf? Haha
@@omarotz1able sorry man the night I wrote this was a hell of a thing.
I love the comment about being in reality, not the canyons of California! Most viewers/buyers are in colder climates with some or a lot of snow. One of the things I love about your channel is that you are in cold snowy reality and bring that to your reviews!! Great job as always gentlemen!! 👏
Nice review! I am an old guy and I was seriously looking at one of these. I think that in the end a great shifter and pedal box isn’t enough for me to give up heated seats and leather and such. If I were to buy a car in this class I would likely go with the 2022 VW GLI at 32K. Heated seats matter to me because after 5 spinal surgeries I find I like to keep the heated seats on a lot. Because I live in Texas I like the GLI’s ventilated seats as well. I can live with the VW shifter. My other issue is that Honda dealers don’t seem to be selling these anywhere near sticker. Kind of defeats Honda’s purpose in trying to keep the price low. For the extra 5K the dealers are charging they could have included a lot of equipment.
exactly, they should've compared the civic with the gli instead of the gti. I'm with jack on this one. GTI was my first vehicle purchase out of college and it was miles ahead of the civic. They've done a great job with the type R in recent years but it's still hideous and i'd never pull go the office in a car that offensive looking.
@@Momosun2018 “I’d never pull into an office in a car that offensive looking.”
I don’t think I need to tell you that you should be buying cars for YOU, and not the approval of your colleagues.
@@Momo_8k Agreed, I buy what I like. That said, I think it is okay to be aware of your "surroundings" per se. I liked the gti and didn't get care what others thought about the hatchback look.
I agree. The GLI is a better comparison than the GTI.
I love when he turns on the center dash screen running in the 90s is the song that pops up.
I test drove this car. It’s Definitely worth it at msrp. Seats are very comfortable. The ride is not harsh. It’s quick in sports mode. It looks respectable. Resale value is great
These guys tell you how it is...Hands down the best car reviews period of all the RUclipsrs out there!
I’d call it a tie with Throttle House.
Really appreciate seeing the debate you guys were having about the car. Seeing genuine thoughts even when in disagreement is really nice as a viewer, especially when you both bring up good points
Love, love, love this channel!! The critical perspectives of the cars and the brilliant quality of the content make this site a MUST for any car enthusiast! Well done gentlemen!
So glad I went with a Type-R for the 11th gen. I had a 2020 Civic Si Coupe, and I think compared to the 11th gen Si, that was more of a sports car, which also gave you a lot more for your money. The fact that it had an adjustable suspension gave it a dual personality, when you wanted to commute or drive to the store, it was nice and smooth, but if you wanted a sports car, you threw in it sport and everytbing would sharpen up along with a stiffer suspension. The availability of the Honda adjustable HFP suspension you could get for it made it even better, smoother, and more sporty, along with some aftermarket springs you had an amazing sports car ride at that point. The 10thgen had heated seats, and fog lights, and a normal dash with nothing missing. You lose all that with the 11th gen Si...sure you can fix a lot of the issues with the aftermarket, but the car costs more than the previous gen, and you get less for it...somehow it just isnt as exciting or seem as good of a deal anymore. The loss of the coupe is another detriment...god how wish for a revival of proper 4 seater coupes again...How sick would an 11th gen Si or even a Type-R in a coupe would've been.
Does the type r have fog lights, heated seats? The red interior is a killer though. Why, Honda?!
@@a124as Nah Type-R doesn't have 'em either. Honda had to hold something back for the refresh I guess. When they do come out with 'em I'm sure u could retro fit them...or just put custom one's in. As foe heated seats...I could see where some colder places might want them. But I prefer the lighter seats without them. The Alacantara seats aren't really a problem in the cold for me anyway.
Are we adding a "Prick / Counter-Prick" segment? Excellent! Well Done!
A cool enough mechanically engineered car in a world of almost lifeless, over-electronically assisted vehicles. Bravo Honda 👍🏻
Engineered and designed in Japan...say no more; I'm sold. Huge improvement on this gen...shame we can't have double wishbones back like the old days but....hey....
Will you guys review an Elantra N any time soon? Would love to hear your take on it. Also wonder how it will fair with dealer markups.. vs the Si
It’s a good time to be alive, these cars are good cars (VW and Hyundai) and having the possibility to see what each one is capable of really brings conversations to the table. Great video Mark, and I think Jack Germany is still fighting over this .
A comparo video of those 3 cars would really be awesome if you guys can get them at the same time! Throw in a WRX, as well, and then I think there's a lot of good choices at around $30k +/- $2k.
Almost bought a previous gen Si but took home an Accord Sport 2.0t instead. Honda pulling things that made the Si special/liveable to me such as adaptive dampers, heated seats, dual zone climate control, etc is a major let down to me.
The 2.0 will outclass the 1.5 in the 2nd half of tachometer but lose out on lower end and economy. The Accord is far roomier even now.
@@jamesmedina2062 yes the back seat especially was cavernous although we did sell it and replace it with a ‘21 Odyssey EX-L. Same infuriating push button shifter though…
@@KT_One you prefer manual?
@@jamesmedina2062
Yes, but the Oddy is auto only. That’s why my manual Mazda isn’t going anywhere anytime soon.
I watched a review that just came out on the Civic Si and then re-watched yours, back-to-back. Without question, yours was the superior review, as the other was basically just reading off the spec sheet and then taking it for a drive. The depth of knowledge you have of the technical details, and how you connect this with the economic reality that Honda had to take into consideration when producing the vehicle, really sets you apart.
Without a doubt, you are the review channel for the enthusiast.
It'll be enough for people who want something bulletproof reliable and still fun to drive. I think they did a great job with it but the loss of some equipment sucks.
I don’t think I’d agree with the bulletproof part. Yes the manual is better than the rubber band they use, but there’s some underlaying electrical issues and tech problems Hondas seem to have anymore. My last had some issues I’d expect from something like a GM or a FCA pile, not a Honda. Still, a better offering than Hyundai or VW if longevity is a primary concern
The days of "bulletproof reliable" new cars are gone - even for Toyota.
Honda’s have never been super reliable. Above average, but far from Toyota level of reliability.
Every car is bulletproof these days and can easily go 200,000+ miles but no one buys cars anymore, they lease and trade in every two to three years.
@@Ethan7s Not from my experience. 80's and '90s Hondas had few endemic mechanical issues I saw repeatedly that didn't go back to negligence or abuse. Unless you start talking about those AC systems. Even my dad's '89 CBR was bulletproof. Two of my family's Civics cleared 320K miles before the odometers quit working, at which point they were sold (and totaled by family members).
Actually, the second least reliable vehicle I've owned or has been in my family is my current Toyota, a 2001 MR2 Spyder. Before 150K miles, I've already replaced:
- Brake lines
- E- brake cables
- Rear brake calibers (seized)
- Exhaust manifold header
- Main cat
- Clutch
- Clutch slave cylinder
- Transmission
- Various hoses and gaskets
- Motor (with post '03 1ZZ-FE due to factory cat-failure)
- AC compressor
- Driver's side window regulator
really enjoy the "arguments" gives multiple views on the same topic and rounds out the channel. keep doing what you are doing
Watching you guys at the end of the drive reminded me of what I used to tell people about my Focus ST, it was too big to be small, too slow to be fast, too uncomfortable to be a daily (the Recaro's were NOT workin for me) and too numbed out for a more "up market" feel. Traded it for a base Fiesta ST and haven't missed it ONE bit! I think you set the tone right for this Civic, if I were going to test drive it, I'd go in with better, more realistic expectations. Very interesting take on the older Si to. Got me thinking and you're right, the amazing ones in my memory all had a LOT of aftermarket in them.
Based on just about every review, the Fiesta ST is a better car though than the Focus.
My unsolicited two cents on that last bit: Older will always be lighter, cheaper, smaller, less mechanically complex, less assisted, louder in the real, and cooler looking overall. The speed discrepancy is less an issue the lighter and smaller the car is. 60 in a paper thin CRX will always feel more invigorating than 80 in a numbed out new Si. With regulations, new cars just can't compete with the '90s in terms of sheer simplicity and the associated joys of lightweight economy/ sports cars.
Fiesta ST was one of the best driving cars ever.
The Fiesta ST is like the last modern car that is like a 90’s car. Currently remaining is the Veloster Turbo I think, which is where the Si is probably loosing ground. Its more of an Accord sport light vs Civic Si
For a different perspective on Canada vs US markets and Ford vs Honda: I have a Canadian 2015 Fiesta SE 1.6 5MT. Out the door (including after 14% tax) it was $21K CAD. The Fiesta ST *sticker* price in Canada was $30K meanwhile the Focus ST was $34K. It made no sense to buy a Fiesta ST here because they were so stupidly expensive, even the dealers I spoke with agreed and they were a rare sight on dealer lots.
Really well executed car for somebody who wants something sporty and can only have one car. Its decent at everything. Y'all really set the standard for technical reviews. Great banter as well. High-five
If we get the Canadian Spec Si in the States and not get screwed over by the stealerships (some are marking up the Si by $20k!!) then yes this car is more than enough. Edit. I would like to add, I’m a current 10th gen 2018 Si coupe owner. I haven’t had a single issue nor am I experiencing oil dilution. I have my car serviced at Honda and they have treated me extremely well. When I had my Hyundai, Hyundai dealership was a terrible experience. That alone will keep me away from Hyundai/Kia products.
I second that. The Canadian spec is where it is at!
Where do they come up with the 20k? Why not 500 or 1k?
@@slipknotron1626 it’s label as “market adjusted” from the stealership. It’s ridiculous that a Si is going over $40k at some dealer.
@@lastpally 🤢🤮 why not get a type r then....not sure what these dealerships are thinking. People looking at the si arent going to spend 40k for one.
'Poverty model' while I understand... but when words have meaning, sounds like an intellectual indulgence on your end. That being said I really like the not trying to hide it, real world, winter-dirty aesthetic filming of this car. As always, your technical analysis, eye candy style and back and forth banter keep me coming back. Another great video.
Good video. It looks better than the last one, in my opinion. Seems more mature. And the seats with integrated head rests looks very Evo-ish.
You are seriously the best car review channel on the internet.
This car is great, I wish the Integra was more of a step up from the si. If it had brembo breaks, 240 whp, and all the luxury items left off the civic. It should have the adaptive dampers. The si at 27k is a great car.
I think the new integra does have brembos
I’m not positive that the breaks in the unveiling will be the breaks on the production car. But you’re right, it seems to have a set of “high performance” breaks. Still think it should get the rest. I just don’t know what the car is going to be. More of high performance version that the Honda or a more luxury car.
That engine bay is a work of art and practicality. Just so logically laid out and easy to work on. This is coming from someone that owns a BRZ.
I just don't like how they've made it larger.... It looks like an Accord.
Yea not a fan.
@@gotmesom It looks nice, but it just looks like every other sedan with nicer wheels.... I wish it stood out a little more...
It is an accord. Have you seen how much it costs?
@@singular9 Well, I recently overpaid for an ‘18 Focus RS, so I shouldn’t comment on prices, however at least the RS looks different than anything else. This SI just looks like a regular sedan to me.
@@poker_18rs92 Lol it's a regular Civic with a lip spoiler and red seats honestly
I like that Mark and Jack can argue and disagree about something but still remain professional and respectful toward one another. Refreshing in todays world.
This car makes me a bit excited for the integra because I feel like it shores up all the short comings of the si. Let’s see what options they give you at 30k.
You've seen the next Integra, right? I wouldn't describe anyone's excitement level for that next car to even rise to the level of "a bit." The only car company that disappointed people worse in recent years was Mitsubishi with the new "Eclipse."
Until they mark the hell out of it
It'll be heavier and if it has the same state of tune slower than the SI.
@@12ealDealOfficial I get the disappointment but I’m keeping an open mind as to the final results. I actually think the civic looks better, however the integra could still be a great car. If not I’ll vote with my money towards something else.
@@turdzilla1675 I agree that it will be heavier but I hope they manage to make it as fast or faster.
Loving my 23 civic si. I wouldn’t ever purchase a car without watching one of your reviews on it first. Love your content. The 11 gen Si is the perfect daily in my opinion. Good choice on getting the type R. I’m in the hunt for one now!
I appreciate how the car appears more mature, and the interior really does look great. I'm in a Fiesta ST right now and this car is what I would upgrade to... once I fall out of love with the Fiesta ST
You'll regret it take the Si for least hour drive before you sign anything
I would love to find a Fiesta ST for sale.
You never fall out of love with the ST, you think you do, and then you realize the mistake you've made. As someone who had their wife wreck and total my ST...I miss it every day. Nothing I have driven comes close to the ST. On paper, the Si seems like an obvious "up market" replacement for the FiST. But it's just not. Sure, the interior is nicer, the rear has more room, there is an actual LSD, but despite all that, the car feels a literal ton heavier than the scrawny Fiesta. The steering is slow, and even with the LSD, is prone to push heavily into understeer. Plus the lack of fog lights, and the half digital dash, and the general heavy handed "corner cutting" done on the trim level, actually makes it feel cheaper than the Fiesta, like you're missing things you shouldn't...I know that sounds weird, but believe me, you are left wanting, and wondering why things aren't there.
As a FiST owner, the Si, despite the great economy, and similar horsepower on paper, doesn't have even similar driving dynamics, and doesn't produce smiles like the FiST did. Like the trim level omissions, the driving dynamics don't feel as immediate or as unobtrusive as true FiST. The First didn't need sport mode, it didn't have noticable rev hang in weird places. The chassis stability control didn't kick in at odd times. It's not that way in the Si, sure it's a better daily driver, and will probably have betterish resale value, but it doesn't get out of the way of the driving experience like the FiST. It feels like any other civic, buy with a little more torque.
Personally, I would wait to see what they do after they Integra is released (which will likely have all the features the Si didn't, in order to justify the higher price tag and the Acura badge) to see if they spec it properly before I would even considered getting one.
For me, it will either be a Hyundai Kona N, or the upcoming GR Corolla. The Kona gives similar "this is just stupid" grins like the Fiesta did, but the 8 speed makes it feel dull at times. I also worry that the GR Four Corolla will suffer the same dealer price gauging as the Type-R, making it feel well out of reach.
The Si may be many good things, but it's not a FiST replacement. Love your Fiesta, you will miss it when it's gone. :(
@@bigbuckoramma lol I hope no one else takes time to read your inaccurate rant. LMAO
I came from a FBO+BT FiST with debt goody you wish you could have had on yours. So, I guess I can say a little about you being inaccurate about how the Si will never come close to the FiST!
The FiST is an Ecobox boosted up, and you’re saying that the Si with a real sorry chassis is not comparable. Get outta here dude
@@SWEETVENOM100 The first thing that should be addressed about your shit post, is that it is painfully obvious you havent spent a single second behind the wheel of a Civic Si. So, I guess you could say, youre really not qualified to be talking about...anything.
And what do you think the Civic Si is? Its a boosted up econobox! LOL! It literally has all of the same tweaks done to it that the ST had done. I.E. Stiffer bushings, special dampers, beefier control arms. Special engine tune. Lighter flywheel. Etc. Except the ST took it a bit further with bigger brakes. Special pad compounds. NO Rev Hang. Factory chassis bracing, and beefier subframes, and modifies steering rack and knuckles to increase the steering ratio. But we will give an extra tick to the Si for having a legit LSD.
You act as if the Si chassis is superior because its newer? Its literally a bigger, heavier car, in every dimension, with a longer wheelbase, and a more forward weight bias. So, yes...it understeers more, and its less sporty feeling. SHOCK: Bigger Cars Feel Slower! NEWS AT 10!
Also might i add that the ST was specifically tuned to be an unstable car. To three wheel when pushed. To be very snap oversteer happy on trail braking. Sport Mode was specifically tuned to allow the car to step out more under lift throttle oversteer without taking the traction control fully off (if you bothered to go to the ST Driving Academy, you would know that). The Si, on the other hand, is tuned like...wait for it...A CIVIC! And is more prone to understeer, and is "safe" in its tuning, which is typical of Honda on everything that doesnt have a Type-R badge. Again, the fact you cant accept this fact proves that you have never driven an Si, and dont understand basic physics.
And finally, no one cares what bolt ons you had on your car. Literally irrelevant. My FiST wasnt stock either. It had a full set of TB Performance chassis braces. It had a Wavetrac LSD. It had a set of inverted tarmac R2 Fiesta dampers built off of Reiger Cores out of Poland. It had a full skid plate. It had a set of Diode Dynamic rally spot lights, and fog lights. And a bunch of other shit i am not going to waste mentioning, because its pointless to having a pissing contest. But for waht its worth...I think i had a few more "debt goodies you wish you could have" on my car than you did. I also bought my car back from the insurance company for pennies, pulled the parts off of it, and turned around and sold the bits to fellow local FiST enthusiasts. And between what the insurance company paid me out for the car (which was substantial because between inflation, car shortages, and increased rarity, the prices of FiST's has gone UP, they are now selling for close to 25k), and what i was able to pull off and sell, I have 18k to go towards purchasing something else. And with the way the market is going, and as disappointing as the Si was, it will either be a Kona N (though i want the 6 speed of the Elantra N, but i think it is too big, like the Si), or more likely the GR Four Corolla when it comes out. As i am a bit of a rally nerd. But hey, I wont bring up my racing background, or the fact that i do rally driving instruction either. But thanks for playing dude.
11:05 Mark, Jack, your attention to detail is insane in these videos - appreciate the "Running in the 90's" backing track while flooring it :)
Heated seats are on everything but the base trim of most cars in Canada. My Canadian CX-30 has heated mirrors and a heated windshield wiper as well. Canadians are really big on winter-related features, even though half of us live south of the forty-ninth parallel.
Hello from Montreal, you forgot heated stirring wheel….can’t believe let’s say five years ago we didn’t have any of that. Even all wheel drive didn’t exist. Take care
Both of your commentary on the SI vs the competition is so insanely accurate. It’s so refreshing to hear you two go back and forth the way real car guys have a debate. I’m a long term Euro guy (VW specifically), every thing you’ve discussed is spot on to how I feel, not just the generic banter but genuine concerns. The MK8 interior has completely pushed me out as you said, I am absolutely cross shopping the SI and the soon to be Type R; specifically in trying to see if the money is worth it. Honestly you’re now my go to car review channel. Thank you for being so detailed. I look forward to when you get your hands on the new Type R.
I feel very strongly about this, I've had to rewrite this like 3 times. Bare with me. I'm someone who 28k, is like 80k. I want a sports car. I could stretch to a Type-R at MSRP, but actually getting one is impossible. I think Si buyers specifically are looking for quality over quantity. However I'd argue people in the market, that the Si is in, are it it for quantity over quality. They aren't looking for a daily with some performance. They are looking for performance, that they can daily. That being said, I'm personally right on the fence of buying Si or Elantra N. I appreciate the attention to detail and amazing feel of the Si, but the Elantra N is much faster, and loud, just straight fun, after all..... that's why I'm in the market for something more than just an ecobox. (again Type-R wins, if it wasn't physically possible to get one for reasonable price).
I feel you on this. I was really hoping the Si would punch out more performance than this. I can totally appreciate that it'll be a fantastic daily driver that can be sporty, but Id also prefer a sporty car that can be daily-ed. Thankfully interior space isn't a concern for me so I'm strongly leaning towards the GR86/BRZ twins. Its a shame the Type-R is as expensive as it is otherwise it would be the easiest decision ever.
SavageGeese, the one place where the glamour shots of a brand new 2022 vehicle are the most heinous, disgusting muck-soaked realistic example of use. I love you.
Manufacturers include certain requirements for low temperatures damping forces in the specification for the shock absorbers. This is influenced by the oil specification, friction (rod guide, piston banding) and the setting (bleed disc specification mainly if I’m not mistaken). When the shock absorber supplier does the validation of the parts, the damping forces at minus twenty or minus forty have to be within a certain percentage compared to the values at twenty degrees. And then I suppose Honda would have done a subjective validation at low temperatures, probably at their testing tracks in Hokkaido, so that there is an acceptable delta in terms of performance and comfort compared to the driving at normal temperatures. So theoretically there should not be such a big difference when testing the car in California or in Illinois, but this being a brand new car, there might be some dispersion in the first batches of dampers which could explain those differences.
Love respectful arguments like this. Maybe only the straight pipes have some cars where they disagree this much and it’s refreshing to see. I love throttle house by the way, I just can’t recall seeing them disagree lol.
Lastly, VOTE WITH YOUR WALLET! I think the GTI is better in a lot of ways too but I really hope more people consider other brands until they fix the infotainment. Feel really bad for people who spend hard earned money on a first year GTI that will inevitably have a better infotainment in a few years and they’ll be SOL. Great video guys.
Excellent discussion. Manufacturers need to be upfront about their cars not blowing dudes. Too much innuendo in advertising these days.
I love the indulgent grin on Mark's face when Jack is so RIGHTEOUSLY wagging his finger.
Great to hear the different views.
I wish the gti had the sunroof and traditional ac volume, infotainment controls, and manual helical limited slip of this.'
to get a gti with a sunroof is 35K, its faster but it has a electronic lsd using brakes, and is very artificial feeling, i still like it though, but would have to forgo the sunroof at about $31K, that 3K more, and a simple hondata tune for 600 would give si similar power, and still get way better mileage, although the hatch is good for bulky items, in practice, if you don't fill it it the top, the trunk can have more room and hold longer items, and have much better rear seat room.
I am upset there is no handbrake anymore, no honda lane watch, that was amazing safety feature, or heated seats or dual climate, , or like canada, rear usb, heated seats front and rear, larger full digital dash, shift lights, parking sensors, fog lights, mirror turn signals, and more?
For those that need the large hatch opening the integral is the si to buy, and it will probably get all those canada si goodies for 30K even, and be listed at 220hp, which the SI is actually at already, you will lose cargo length by 6 inches though, so there is always a trade off.
As a side note, if possible don't buy any new car, if you cannot get it at msrp, if you do, you will just encourage them to continue the practice.
I have the sister car, the Integra A-spec with 6MT. My car and the Civic SI are almost identical. After driving 5000 miles in my Integra I can tell you that your closing thoughts are spot on. The car doesn’t pretend to be anything else than an affordable, fun, daily. It’s engaging and a hoot to drive. It reminds me of when I was eight-years-old and my parents agreed to buy me a 5 hp minibike. That thing might as well had been a super GP motorcycle as far as I was concerned. It’s all on how you approach it, and what your expectations are. These are great cars and they are disappearing from the planet and we should all enjoy them while they’re here.
I guess I'm just confused by it's approach and placement in the market.. Less money gets you everything in an Si without a tarted up interior and yet a more comfortable ride and more daily driver features like heated seats, the sameish price gets you the touring which is way more loaded.. Slightly more money gets you things like a mazda 3 turbo sedan where it's only 10% more expensive but makes waaaaaay more power and is just overall nicer inside.
Not sure, just seems awkward. If I want a car that's sporty and has a good manual trans I'll get something like a Miata or a GR86 as they're about the same money. If I want a good daily I'll get just a civic or perhaps mazda/hyundai product. It doesn't feel special enough to pay more for less features outside of a slight hp bump and it doesn't feel cheap enough to disregard it's much more sporty brothers.
I think especially considering the dealer markups one of the top commenters mentioned, if you get Si with 6k markup you're in Mazda 3 premium territory, right?
@@richardnavratil9661 Mazda3 Premium Plus territory. The regular Turbo Sedan(which is still a premium vehicle) is only about 2.5k more.
Big plus for the SI is the manual transmission and the LSD
I feel exactly like you @HalcyonSunset. If you want a sporty car you'd go for a type R. If you want to save money, there are better offerings. The Si is in a kinda of a niche spot.
@@xzst Yeah I think its just a massive compromise in all areas. It does most things pretty well, but nothing really well. Its not the most sporty, its not the best interior, it doesnt have the most features. And I know we love the manual, but its honestly probably holding this back from the mass market they want. While enthusiasts who want a manual are probably looking at more serious cars at this price point.
I like how you guys have contrasting opinions. It's important to have discussions like this about the ride quality.
can you please review the ELANTRA N Next 🙏
Love your reviews and honesty between you two, makes great content and watchability even if I am not interested in purchasing a new civic. Thanks for making these great videos.
As a Honda SI fan I enjoyed this video a lot. I never thought of the SI as other than a sports car. But from listening to Mark and Mr. Singapore speak. I gotta admit they are good daily cars with a fun factor built in. Hopefully the aftermarket makes these more fun to drive.
This guy makes the best car reviews hands down. You don't need anything further. If your looking for a car. Think savage.
Can't wait to see you guys get a hold of the new CTR!
Gonna be so much money , prob 40k easy
I can't wait to see SG review the Acura TLX again when the new "Integra" is launched.
This has to be one of the best duo on cars along with Thomas and James.
The one thing people don’t consider in these videos, which the reviewers can’t really go into, is the reliability and dependability and valuable. Sure, the gti might be better, the Elantra n is more powerful, but in 10 years… we are going to see these around going for 50%to 60% of what you paid for it. You can’t say that for the gti (Ive had two) and the Elantra (there is a reason why they have a 100k mile warranty: they need it).
The best Si review I have watched and I’ve watched a bunch. Thanks guys.
No coupe and lack of features that the Canadians get as standard.
Fake engine noise on a Honda...I'm just going to import a Del Sol SiR, instead.
Honestly, that opening scene where he was sitting in the driver with the door open looked like he was sitting in a Dodge Charger.
Agree. I was like “damn that car looks big for a Civic”
Someone commented, "have fun getting plowed down by an F250 in your 95 del sol," but I don't see it anymore so I think they deleted it.
1. What does an F250 have to do with a Del Sol?
B...the SiR was a 97.
Finally, what does any of that have to do with the video or my comment?
Great video and car. This car is exactly what I expected though. No flare, but no games. Get in , enjoy an experience with out very much compromise. Basically Si heritage. I had a 2012 and the cars a much different but it looks like the same mission was completed .
Needs a hatch but as predicted, the integra will offer the hatch with added features at a premium cost. Unfortunately. Will be glad to have it but this is more up the conventional Honda wisdom.
Thanks again for great content
Almost insulting that they wouldn't at least _offer_ the additional features present on the Canadian variant to Americans as options. How would that be much more complicated? Seems like laziness.
Seems like hey buy our integra rofl
Hello from Montreal, I live in a cold climate not quite 6 months but in the province of Quebec snow tires are mandatory from December to April. With that and owning a few so called sports cars like the golf r and a civic that come with 19” low profile tires with harder suspension. I was able to size down to a 17” tire giving more side wall height, and of course winter tires are softer so there is more give. Like you mention having a dedicated set of rims tires is safer and it prolongs your summer tires. Canadians are super nice people well except when we’ve been drinking with a hockey stick in our hand, but we generally pay a lot more for things and that’s frustrating so when something is cheaper than what’s in the states we celebrate. Get your stick..Great channel.
Living in New England, the lack of heated seats is a deal breaker for me.
When did New Englanders become so soft? I’ve never had a car with heated seats nor felt like I needed them.
@@fhowland I grew up in Chicago. I learned to drive in a 1969 Ford Falcon with manual steering and unassisted 4-wheel drum brakes. So I have plenty of experience driving uncomplicated cars. Here is the thing, though: the old days weren't better and heated seats are much more comfortable on a cold day.
I choose not to have a cold backside until my car warms up. Heated seats aren't expensive.
And if you haven't experienced it, a heated steering wheel is also quite nice.
Thanks for the review, guys! I especially liked the "organized" arguments you had. That, to me, is an interesting and stimulating way to reflect on the car. Great insight!
Man they really dialed back the styling with this staid looking version, compared to the toy car looks of the previous generation. A grown man can now drive this without feeling childish every now and then 🤣 I like it!
Then there's me, a 37 year old family man with a 10th Gen Si with an exhaust and aftermarket wheels. YEET
I still argue the Civic coup 10th gen was pretty clean and mature
there has to be a way to disconnect the fake engine noise from radio/speakers. that's so dumb that manufacturers think people need this and don't give them options to opt out.
great video btw!
The markup on these in RI is comical..
I take that back they dropped the prices back down, they were 39k a week ago
As a Canadian, thanks for the comparison shout out guys!