The 580 Stroker Bottom End Teardown with Expensive Surprises!
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- Опубликовано: 9 фев 2025
- This is a Big block Mopar 580 stroker that I am tearing down and rebuilding for a viewer of the channel. It was originally built by Muscle motors, then ran with issues, and then rebuilt by another company. Following that rebuild it was ran a few passes and had more issues.
My job is to find the issues and rebuild it for an upcoming dyno session. Feel free to comment with anything you spot that was not mentioned in the video.
Special thanks to everyone that has let me bounce ideas and and share their experience through this process. We are all excited to see this one happen and hit the dyno someday soon!
@SlantDailyGarage
@edsmachine93
@rickseeman5679
@rodneybyrd9516
@powellmachineinc
@UnityMotorSportsGarage
Joe by far has the best Mopar channel!!!! Always has informative videos on whatever he's working on and does a great job 👍👍👍👍👍
I appreciate that!
I don’t understand how Uncle Tony has 400,000 subscribers but we can’t get Joe past 20k! You’ve got amazing content and you actually get things done 👍
Because uncle Tony
Just talks nonsense that easy for the weak minded
Ya i dont get it either i have mopar joe on my facebook page its a professional page i always share his content than when im on you tube i share his content again
Who is Uncle Tony?💁
We need to all give his vids a thumbs up. It makes a difference on how he shows up.
Matter of time
Great video, Joe. I'd love to see how that crank ballances out as well..
I agree on that for sure. We can’t trust much of anything else happening here, I’m. It sure the balance can be either
Hi Joe, Just to back up your bore gauge, you can shove a piston down that hole with a feeler gauge to confirm the discrepancy. Thanks,great content as usual!
@@p-m2127 Not exactly. Feeler gauge is flat. The bore and piston are round. You'll never get any accuracy. The way he did it is the only way it should be done.
@@JRD_Motorsports I get what your saying..but that was a standard procedure if you didn't have a bore gauge..sometimes a a weight scale was attached to the feeler gauge to measure the drag on the FG as you drew it out.
@p-m2127 And I get what YOU'RE saying, lol. BUT, that was a real OLD way of doing things way back in a time where the tooling wasn't available, or wasn't affordable. Not a common practice by today's standards.
@@JRD_Motorsports Well, I'm old..lol. But I will go out on a limb and say that most of Joe's audience are probably home builders---not pro shops. A home builder may use plastigage to check clearance on a crank but most pro shops wouldn't be caught dead with plastigage in the shop..just comes down to what one can afford.
@p-m2127 lol. It's all good. Wasn't knocking ya, just shedding some light on the subject. Old School methods have worked in the past, but when dealing with today's high end race engines, precision is key.
Keep on building the engines bro!!
Thank you!
Thanks for all the information. The way you speak, makes it easy to follow along. Keep up the good work.
Thanks for the support!
Thanks Joe. You got me thinking.
We will keep pushing onward and upward 💪🏻
Good video, I’ll be interested to see how it looks after another trip to the machine shop
Nice work measuring everything during tear down. That engine doesn’t look cheap. That’s a bummer it’s got issues. But he’s in good hands now. Looking forward to the other side when it goes back together. I hope there’s a dyno video coming on it.
@@JonnyMopar thanks Jonny
All I can say is WOW! You Da Man Joe!
Thanks Big Mike 💪🏻
That's some nasty piston slap there!
Great video Joe. Forgive me if it's already been said (there's a ton of comments) but check that one bearing shell (#5 lower), based on the amount of offset it looks like a non-grooved upper being used as a lower and that's why there's no end play.
Keep up the great work Joe.
Kev
Good info, Joe.
Thanks 👍
Sorry, I Missed the Live. Good tear down video. You do catch alot of those small clues !!! 👍
Thank you, Tim! I’ve got another page of notes after publishing the video as well
Great teardown video!
Thank you, Peter!
Great video as usual ,thank you
Thanks Tim!
RUclips runs on algorithms. Always hit the "thumbs up" and "comment." Those 2 things will help the channel grow!
Excellent investigation work, Brother Joe! I really like seeing things like this. What's wrong? Why did it happen? How do we fix it? It's a process. Keep on digging. We will find out together!
Thanks Brother Brad!
wish i could find a motor like that ! those are some really nice parts !
I’m enjoying the “Sherlock Holmes” detective work on this engine. I hope the crank was balanced properly as well given he thought he had a completely different crank. Owner should possibly reevaluate his choice of aluminum rods given his needs and future plans. I see some machine shop work coming in a future episode. Good luck.
It looks like they may not have bored it square? certainly a puzzle why it's running on the side's of the bearings, great info,thanks for sharing, all the best to you and your loved ones
Good video
Appreciate you watching!
23:53 if I'm not mistaken it looks like there's a sleeve installed in the left hand cylinder. If that is the case, and that sleeve was installed after the block was final honed (example as a repair after it was run) then depending on the crush or interference of the sleeve, it will certainly affect the shape of cylinder next to it, increasing the dimension on the thrust surface while reducing the clearance on the non thrust (front to back) dimension.
I used. 001 for the interferance fit, as well as a glue/sealer/bonding agents.
I was thinking the same thing. Depending on how much press they used it could make that much difference.
Was only one piston exposing the skirt or did all of them have it? I think a line bore would be a good start and re-hone the cyl bores and then do some diameter checks after that. Maybe ring gap was wrong?
Very good points
👍🏁
💪🏻
Good content as always seeing makes me worry about my 572
Nobody does it better😊
Thank you!
This brings back some bad memories when I had 3 brand new roller rockers go bad. One locked up and held an exhaust valve open at 6000 rpms. My engine sat, tore apart for 15 years, and when I decided to rebuild, I found my crank was groved on every journal. It was cam lobe material that went through the block. My new machine shop found the crank was turned. 0015 off on the back end. Another. 010 off and it was ok. My Cleveland is in good working order now. The rebuild was 7 years ago. I still have the junk bearings somewhere. 😅
Ouch! Sometimes it seems like the parts are out to get you.
Yeah those bearings show some wear...can be another reason the oil is flowing heavy at the bottom side of the block...this is getting interesting....good content and thanks....🔧🔧👍
Thanks, I think the surprises are just getting started!
When I was young and dumb I bought a 383 block that had turned a rod bearing twice. I took it to an old time engine shop and they said, just get it line bored. It held up under my beating the hell out of it for many years. That motor you are working on looks like its got 100,000 miles on it.
Yes sir. It’s supposed to be dyno pulls and 3 drag strip passes.
Needs a full quench pad and deeper dish for the same compression ratio and a better quench
run a magnet around the pan
note the stock oil pickup is gone
min hone coat pistons or knurl if necessary
Wow Joe, we’re not having very much runtime. That thing looks worked if you know what I mean.
@@cbobmonster yes sir. Dyno time and 3 passes he said
Line to line coatings for you piston skirts
Interesting...
I suppose the scuffing on the piston skirts is to be expected with a long stroke and especially if using a shorter rod. That increases piston skirt side load substantially. Whats bad is someone spent big $s just to have problems right out of the gate. Do you know what the oil pressure was on initial start up?
I do not. I have a video on trying to tackle some oil pressure issues in this engine. It had some huge internal leaks.
If your going to save the pistons, think about sending them to line 2 line coatings
Yes sir. It’s definitely in the discussion behind the scenes. I want to be sure the bores clean up with enough material left
Joe fantastic
Thank you
If you have to I'd coat them Pistons to take some of that rock out and make them nice coatings for them things now I wonder if the converter pushing on that crank and moving them bearings around but that is some funky wear on them bearings😁
yikes. good thing it stayed together
JMJ _ Hay can i get you to put my engine together. I want to get a 340 stroker 3.51 using all mopar NOS parts / mopar proformance. I have the crank , cam, block / needs to go to 4.060, pistons, "X" heads / ported, 6pk correct holly numbers.
Need to get rods, and bearings. I have been collecting parts so long now I don't remember when i started.
When done plan to install it in my 1973 Cuda.
I dont need to have this done right away or rushed. Please let me know iftgis is something that you may consider taking on?
Thank you, Joe. Yes sir. I enjoy building engines and can get you on the list. Shoot me an email to justmoparjoe@gmail.com
AWESOME!!! thank you! Will DO!
Hello from Tennessee I'm new to your channel you do a great job I just want to comment on the crank baring I learned from Mr Ben Alameda's channel that the first sign of the crank flexing is excessive wear on the 2nd and 4th main the crank will flex like a s and will wear those two baring first I don't know if that is your problem or not but I hope that might help good luck
That's awesome advice, I appreciate it! I do know the engine saw a period of low oil pressure after running. Could have touched bearings if it got too low
I was also thinking bent crank shaft.
Seems like a lot going on..geesh
Yea buddy! Will keep on chipping away
With the mains showing uneven wear the block should be align honed. That looks like a lot of sludge in the bottom of the oil pan for the run time on the engine
Absolutely 👍
Could high rpm crank flex be an issue here? Bearing edge wear?😊
It’s possible, but the dyno sheet only showed 6,000 rpm pulls. Lots to dig in to here
The bearing tag in the cap is in the wrong location. Put the bearing in the block and cap to check alignment👍
I was able to slide that bearing rearwards. That rear cap had an extra wide gap for the bearing tang
@@JustMoparJoe 👍👍
As soon as I saw you doing the piston depth measuring at 3:00 I started browsing the comments to see who was going to scream "youre doing it wrong!". People don't realize you HAVE to measure that piston rock at top and bottom. Sure, the side above the wrist pin gives a consistent measurement but it doesn't account for the skirt slap ( *that all pistons do* ) .
10:58 Isn't that because the main bolts were tightened side first and it twisted the caps?
Very possible on the caps. I will have it checked with more precision 👍
Definitely lots of mysterious things going on in there. It just ain't right
Yes sir 👍
Kinda sucks on the cylinder walls ,,good one joe 👍👍👍👍
Thanks brother
Measure your pistons on the bottom edge of the skirt which is the largest diameter of the piston. Ever heard an engine knock on start up? alot of times its because a skirt is laying in the oil pan.
Question, Is that a drag race engine? Why the aluminum rods? Maybe bbc rods to offset grind the crank for more stroke. I have ran aluminum rods on the street and I have also found that when one is about to let go there is a distinct vibration you'll feel.
This is a drag only deal made for his bracket car. The rods were added when he was promised the lightweight Callie’s crank, and that also turned out to be a lie.
Odd looking bearings. For fun check thrust with caps on and caps removed to make sure the caps are not adding to it.
line to line coatings
All hail the algorithm.
Hello Joe
Hey Jeff! Thanks for hanging out
You’ll get skirt wear on larger stroker engines
Rod /pistons to cylinder push gets worse the larger stroker you go with
For sure. I would hope the wear be more equal on the skirts if the machining was more precise.
@ well each cylinder can be different even when you bore it , after all they just centering off the original position of that cylinder.
So one cylinder could be worse shape in proper crank throw cylinder center
Like I said, bigger the stroke , worse that side push gets
Joe dropping a stroker kit on his grandmas dodge hornet rt. Just because.
She won’t mind
Good job Joe you’re like a Sherlock Holmes on a big block Mopar!
Big block Holmes 😂😂😂. Thank you
Issues of strange wear on mains more than likely bearings could be issue or main caps. ? Line hone should caught that
Yes sir
It appears the crankshaft main bearing journals dont have enough radius clearance in the corners. Those main bearings also look as if they were a little tight or starved for oil. I dont like that sleeve the way it looks down in the bottom, The thin casting of the block could over time break off and cause catastrophic damage. Hopefully whomever built that engine pre oiled it before start up. Sometimes you have to put a little white lube or vaseline on the pump gears to start the suction.
Great point!
Maybe pistons installed with the wrong piston to wall clearance? You might want to check it.
"Hey Joe" where you going in that Mopar man?
Goin' down to smoke that guy who's drivin' the Chevy sedan.
Goin' down to race that guy
who's drivin' the Chevy sedan
😂
A torque plate would more likely make the top open up, rather than taper down like that.
Also, its clear the cylinder is out of round and needs to be re-turned to be true round.
Absolutely
It would seem to me that a .001 crank runout would cause a total increase of rotational diameter of .002.
You’ve gone this far. Why not grind and polish the crank with align bore?
Just a suggestion Joe as a machinist of years ago. Either place the cylinder horizontal with the stationary point of the bore gauge on the bottom while checking bore diameter OR rotate the block with the bore vertical so that gravity doesn’t interfere with readings. That way you don’t rely on the spring pressure to center the gauge.
If you put plastic gauge across the bearing in the saddle and placed the crank do you think that would give you an idea about interference? I don’t like the way those bearings look. It doesn’t look like impressions made from debris. More like the way the journals are fitting. Tough to tell from here.
Would the piston offset have anything to do with what looks like piston slap?
See you next time.
I agree with you on that the block now needs services that I’m not capable of. Thank you for the idea of turning the block to help measuring the bore. There’s a lot for the owner to mull over here.
Curious. Do those pistons have wrist pin offset? I’ve heard race pistons may not have offset.
RUclips boost comment.
That all looks expensive.
Yes sir!
So first off I have seen pistons like this used in a supercharger application so why here. Second is why does the oil look like Mississippi mud? Piston skirts cut to shit and clearly blowby on one plus stuck rings. The bearings are trashed. Just a thought. Crank machined poorly not flat but dished in the journal. Seen that before from over polishing to get a pit or pits out. On a new crank😮 wtf. Line bore is suspicious and cylinder bore is fuked in my opinion. For the amount of run time this would have been a 10 run motor and boom and extra parts. 😢 what you thinkin?
It’s definitely been an expensive dream that has turned nightmare
that aint the bore gage Joe.
Where. Do. I. Begin. Lol.
@@JRD_Motorsports you can leave it here or send it to me on Instagram 😆
@@JustMoparJoe It's a lot of writing! Lol
@JustMoparJoe
Quick synapses:
-Yes, thrust is too tight, whether from the thrust surface or the bearings hitting the filet radius, it needs to be addressed. Lay a main cap and rod cap, with bearings, on the crank journals and gently slide them. The main cap should have movement and not hit the inner radius. The rod cap pushed over to its corresponding side should also not hit the corner radius. Chamferred bearing or not. Tom Molnar uses generous filet radius' in the corners.
-The cam looks to be ground a on a small base circle, to help it keep the lobes off the rods. Not a huge deal and may not be needed even with a 4.500" stroke, but doesn't hurt in this application.
-.007" is not horrible on that bore size, if it's a 2618 forging, which it is. The problem is a lot of side loading on the major thrust side. I would definitely clean hone it for new ring seal, but that will open the clearance. You have to check exact sizing with a torque plate bolted down. Clean Hine will add about. 001"+ to that clearance so if those pistons have to be re-used, coat them. Line 2 Line does good work. That will add a couple thou to the skirt.
-Pistons.... Measure to see if they are collapsed. If so, you will need need new ones. Measure right at where it is fully skirted, then Measure right below the oil ring. It should be much smaller, by at least a few thou. If it's close or the same size, the skirts are collapsed. Check them all.
-Pistons part deux: NEVER calculate compression without quench design first. Personally, I don't know why guys do not take advantage of quench area. You do not minimize compression by widening quench distance. Set the quench, then design the dish. I also understand that if there is a chance to save the pistons, some guys will go that route, just makes for an inefficient chamber. Having Aluminum rods, it can't be statically tight as they still need some breathing room, but that is just a safety factor and don't need as much as most think.
-Don't forget about cam end play!
-That crank is moving too much. About .001" out if round in the middle, WILL effect how it rides in #2 & #4 housing bore. That crank needs more than a polish. I would also measure the outer journal diameter with a mic, not just the middle, and do it 90⁰ apart to make sure nothing is eggshaped.
Looks like there was a lot of dirt in that oil. The crank needs to be cut, at which point you measure for clearance and cut the crank to each bearing. Mains and rods. The skirts are all sorts of scored. Definitely wouldn't run without a coating but price it. May make sense to just get the right piston at a bigger bore.
-Choose an Oil delivery. Pushrod or shaft. Not both. Those blocks are priority main, so the deck is wild from the main galley, not the cam. Which means it's getting oiled all the time. Not timed oil from the cam. Doesn't need both, and just causes an internal leak.
-I run side to side clearance on Aluminum rods a minimum of .030" They grow. Looks to be they are also possibly hitting the corner radius of the journals preventing further side to side clearance.
Think I touched on everything lol. Told you it was winded. If you have any questions, feel free to hit me up on Instagram. Can go into more detail, I'd be happy to help.
@@JRD_Motorsports Very well said! I am worried about the pistons and rods too. I bet a dollar you're right about the side clearances.
@elmerfudpucker3204 Thanks bud. Forensic diagnosis while reverse engineering someone else's stuff is in the job description lol. Can't help but offer my 2 cents when I see others in this position. 👍
The bearings was all messed up.
Yes sir
Just a bit of wobble in the crank...
I believe that engine was machined and assembled by a whole bunch Chevy Enthusiasts, So "What we've got here is, failure to communicate!" Yes the owner wanted a Callie's crank shaft but instead they ordered a Molner Crank Shaft 😢 made here in CCP Michigan. So it was assembled for implosion. I'm hearing that phone call to Ed and or Rick.
@Anthony-nw5zv Engine building ignorance, or lack of experience, isn't brand specific. I see nothing here that tells me it was "built like a Chevy"... Just a bunch of wrong decisions.
And absolutely NOTHING wrong with Molnar. Tom makes some killer parts. Those guys are very knowledgeable, and machining is on point, which in comparison, has rivaled Callies' lower model offshore cranks. Ask me how I know lol.
@@JRD_Motorsports Well here's the problem, Mopars don't oil through the pushrods Chevy and Ford do. So any way it was built by a Chevy Girl, ! So are you the one? Doesn't run right, low oil pressure, custom pistons are scuffed up and rocking the holes. Got a lot doosh bag wannabe engine builders out here in Michigan and offhand I can think of 5. If I order particular part for my engine it better be there. The whole thing has to be gone through and re machined.
Hello dou you no abaut thes Block!!Have thes Block in may Challenger 70Se sixpack 440cui weiand Tunnel Ram intake. They call it Mega Block thes have 4 Bult Mains.The Block Nr are 2468 330-M Thes are weery strång Block!!!
These number are on the right Side off the Block!
This one is not a mega block. This is a Bulldog block that was originally sold and built by muscle motors.
The Mega Block was designed and built by Indy Cylinder Head many years ago and is not in production by them any longer. It is a very strong aftermarket block, the first to be done I believe. The designs were bought by Mancini Racing, although I don't believe it made it to production yet. I have used them in the past with good results.
Interesting problems. I know you can fix it, though
Thanks buddy!
That engine is hoing to need a total remachine
Yes sir
The oil thing? The cam? The block off at the head? The mains ? You got a crack or something? This thing is kind of f up Joe. What is the oil pressure on this thing cause something is off. I’m hoping you let us know what happened to this thing. Good luck Joe.
@@richardmoerke9329 thank you, Richard. It was started and ran by the original company, with a rag left inside of it. Then rebuilt by another company with new parts and the .030 over bore. Dyno pulls and about 3 passes is all she’s ran
I’m no machinist but I don’t think that sleeve should move at all
It may have been a bad camera angle. The sleeve was set in the block. I was just wondering why so much was hanging out the bottom. It could just be nature of the beast
sucks. to many variables for me. i would have to get the block reworked and checked out and start fresh. even the parts. am always Leary at spending thousands of dollars for something that is unknown. i rather spend 5k extra on a build, than to buy one from someone that claims its ready. is there any plans to change the setup? or save what is left. i know your kind of going in blind.
Aluminum rods and dished pistons?!? What's the point? Aluminum rods have a life span, and more importantly, a purpose. Was this supposed to be some extreme nitrous engine? Even still, you'd still want a bunch more compression.
@yarrdayarrdayarrda The dish is to control compression, regardless of rod material. Small chambers and all that stroke don't require big domes, or flat tops in some cases.
It’s a road that meets a few bad intersections for sure
I agree the aluminum rods were not a a good idea unless he plans more rebuilds in the future aluminum rods have their purpose but also require regular replacements at set intervals, I don’t this is the right application for them.
@chrisw5837 That's not entirely true. Just sayin'
Red flags, way to much junk in the pan. Skirts shouldn’t look like that. That rock is atrocious. Crank bearings vs crank, probably not line bored/honed correctly. The sleeves, shouldn’t have been installed like that, they didn’t bore down enough for full clearance when installed and it would worry me seeing the block material peeling/cracking next to the sleeve itself. Might be asking for disaster or pieces coming off and going through the oil system. IMO, the builder should be ashamed of themselves and pay for it getting done right by you. Keep up the good work and investigation
Thank you John. I will update once everything is throughly sorted
Yeah, I don’t know who did the work on that block, but it needs to go to a real machine shop! The line bore needs to be checked, the cam tunnel! It should probably be put in a new hone, So it can get the cylinders right! What was this engine supposed to do? With rings that small & high, it looks like a NA deal? They need more clearance than 2 tho on the rods, & 3 tho + is fine on the mains! Big stroke, big bore, they need more clearance! How many cylinders have sleeves? It’s looking like nothing got scrubbed clean! Why aluminum rods 🙄🙄🙄🙄? Pistons can be coated by (line to line)! They have an abrade-able coating! If everything else is ok! It can save you from buying new pistons!
This was intended to be a fast revving NA bracket engine. Mains and rods measured at .003. I may have not mentioned rods in video. Definitely needs a work over
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