Just watched this with my wife to better understand a 100 year old trumpet we found at an estate sale. Great video and love your passion for this instrument! :)
I just found a New York Musical Instrument Company "New Yorker" cornet serial #1. It was black in color before I cleaned it. I am waiting for a mouth piece to arrive to play it. I think it is around 100 years old. The only thing close I could find is in the Amercan National History Museum in Washington DC.
I think clear lacquer is the way to go. It preserves the instrument, stops the smell, and, most importantly, is easily removed by the person on charge of preserving this heritage instrument 50 years or so from now.
Raw brass can be toxic or allergy prone to some players, and yes old raw brass can affect the nasal appraisal🤧. I have a Conn Victor 80A that was made in 1918. The previous owner had it silver plated with a gold wash inside the bell. The bell has beautiful engraving all the way back to the bend and the silver plating makes it look stunning. I am sure Anderson's Plating can make it look splendid!
I have the same instrument in silver - and it's great. I haven't had any work done on it (I've seen your follow-up video) but when I was in conservatoire, there were some things it just seemed to do really well. I would use it in the orchestra sometimes.
the bottom D and C# to be fair were pretty much in tune without a third valve trigger. pretty good in my opinion. i have an old Martin trumpet from 1918 amongst many more but i think one of my favorites is another martin, the model escapes me at the minute and that's from 1934, really smokey sound, not a committee, i have a couple of those, probably an imperial. lovely trumpet. keep yours as is, doesn't need blinging up.
I have my grandfather’s Conn 22B NY Symphony. It came with a B flat tuning slide, which went missing sometime before it came to me, and a B flat/A tuning slide. It has a silver satin finish and the interior of the bell is gold plated. The finish is pretty rough. Plays great though.
I have a 1933 William Frank Trumpet.all the inner slides are nickel,It has no First or third valve slide rings ,but the pipes are longer.Has a great tone with old dark lacquer. Great valve compression with bottom spring nickel vale’s. Has a great Frank 20 mouthpiece similar to a Back 3 c
A rare find worthy for a professional. The Besson was truly the standard setter. Amazing to see the horn in such a high state of preservation, for the brass in those days had more % of zinc, and thus rot. I would clear coat, not plate, the horn. I believe the brass is the main reason for the distinctive timbre of the Bessons. But not all Bessons, of the 1920 era, are equal. "Besson" refers only to the horns branded by Besson, UK; which includes horns made in UK and Europe: today we use the term out-sourced. This caused no 2 horns to be exactly alike in sound and playability. This continued for over 25 years, which gave rise to the desire of performers to have much more consistency. Besson was acquired by Boosey in 1948, whose motivation was market share and profits, not to further develop the horn. By that time, Bach horns were gaining a high reputation for better sound and playability, earning the accolade of Stradivarius of trumpets. Pros switched to Bach and the rest is history. To this day, I prefer still the sound of Bach trumpets for symphonic works.
I think a lot of craftmanship can be hidden by silver plating. If anything, I'd have it restored to a polished finish with a good clear lacquer. Reach out to Charlie Melk.
Interesting -- I'm looking at buying one possibly, although I lack understanding of why a F. Besson is worth so much more than an English Besson. I wonder at how the Bessons compare to each other. They do look fairly similar, although the 2nd valve slide points forward on the F. Besson, for instance, but both are early "modern" trumpets. I mostly play on a 1926 Conn trumpet, as I could afford it : )
Man! What a great find!! I had a beautiful silver-plated 1949 Besson Meha that I LOVED! Great sound, EZ response upstairs then, some A-Hole stole it...never to be found again...one of my teachers had a 1936 Besson, I can't recall if it was the Meha or Brevette...it needed a LOT of work though...I also loved the old Besson cases with the Alligator skin style
Great trumpet! Such an age but still in condition and tone! I've got a Besson Stradford, it is something like 70-s production. I compared it to Yamaha 6335 and it is also way more slim and also has a thinner leadpipe than Yamaha, and a bell actually the same size as Yamaha. The sound is more brassy and sharp, but Yamaha has more middles in tone on forte and very smooth commercial-sounding transitions.
Excellent video. If it were me I would not get this horn plated. Many of these older Besson trumpets had a wonderful ring to them. I think the silver plating would damped it. You sound great!
@@JonTalksTrumpet It's used in museums around the world to help preserve antiques. It has neutral PH so causes no harm to the object being treated and it's odourless and completely transparent.
Sounds amazing!! Would also work amazing ins Stravinsky’s Octet. I would definitely consider silver playing or giving it a brushed lacquer finish. Would you add triggers to the 1st and 3rd slides?
Yeah, I'm definitely thinking silver plate would be nice since I plan to keep it. I've thought about adding some kind of rings or triggers, but I also am a little hesitant since it's still in it's original configuration after all these years and am not sure how many things would have to be altered to make those tuning aids work well. Glad you enjoyed the video!
I just picked up a 1955 Olds Ambassador Fremont, CA. for CDN $40. Had to solder off the tuning slides to get them out. Might need some plating on the valves due to lack of use. Plan to have it restored. The case looked like yours, and smelled really bad. It had to go into the garbage. The horn only smells a little.
THAT'S REALLY COOL. Do you have any information on how long the open tubing is? The old advertisement said 19 inches, but what about the tube length of old trumpets (if they were uncoiled)? Do modern B flat trumpets have the same tube length as the cornett when it came out in 1830?
I'm no expert, but I think it depends on the pitch of the instrument. Modern Pitch instruments are tuned to A=440 which leads to a certain "uncoiled" length, while I know at some point historically instruments were made in High and Low pitch which would be shorter and longer overall lengths.
I shy away from horns that old because I like a brighter sound but you sounded very good. My English Brevette and 609 are good players for me. Does anyone know if a Besson 5A mouthpiece would be smaller than a 6A? The 6A works well for me. How do they categorize their cup sizes?
Fun. The yammies sound better tho. I once has a small bore Conn 22b from 1957. Sad I sold it for next to nothing. It wasn't loud enough for bigband but played quite lyrically and easy.
That is a really beautiful sound. Is it hard work generating that tone or does it come fairly naturally to the instrument? And how much do you have to work to keep it in tune?
It can have a beautiful sound if I'm putting a beautiful sound into it. :) The intonation is not bad at all but certainly takes some tweaking of the slide positions and some practice with drones. The low D and C# are most of the issue... or any of the "longer" fingering really since ideally I would be able to move the 1st and 3rd valve slides while I'm playing in order for those to all line up just right. But the chops are stronger than the slides so it's not impossible, but it does have a learning curve.
@@JonTalksTrumpet Have you thought about seeing if you can get triggers added to the first and third valve slides? That might help with switching between A & Bb as well as sorting out those problematic fingerings. If you plan to use th instrument much I'd say go for the silver plating and investigate adding triggers. If you are more interested in keeping it as a museum piece then don't fiddle with it.
Thanks for the input, Josh! I got it from an orchestra colleagues father who is well known in the trumpet community who had kept it in collector level condition. Definitely considering the silver plate, will do a followup video some day!
A little late to the game on comments here, but I'm a tech and I did want to weigh in on the "smell" and the plating dilemma. From my perspective, no home bath is a replacement for a regular chemical clean. Which chemical is used is a matter of discussion, but the standard industry dips/ultrasonic solutions contain an acid component as well as a powerful surfactant to carry dirt away. If the horn smells, then that is going to be a result of surface oxidation of the brass further reacting to components in the air to create a lingering smell. Normal soap and water in a home flush will not touch this. You really need a professional clean. One benefit of raw brass is that it can be polished. You do not need to buff an instrument to maintain a beautiful shine. Mounted on a mandrel, and hand-ragged with a minimally abrasive product like Flitz (do NOT use brasso!), a bare brass instrument like yours can be brought to showroom shine, and to maintain that brilliant shine would mean a half hour to an hour of work as little as twice a year. I think a little cosemetic maintenance, mentioned above, is well worth the intimacy and brilliance of an unfettered brass sound. But since silver and gold tarnish less quickly, people eventually gravitated toward those finishes to maintain a bare metal sound with less work. If you really want to go through the expense and effort, just go all the way and have it gold plated IMO. But know that a "new" finish will accentuate any "old" flaws. A simple hand polish on the old brass will blend in better with any old nicks or scratches.
Great video. Maybe wear gloves when you play that trumpet. I know that smell oh too well from some school brass instruments that should have been retired years ago. Lol 😂
I would not change the finish on this horn. It is an antique. It will ruin any future collector appeal and price. That said, who really wants to buy an old trumpet other than a trumpet player? I am not sure. That old finish has character. Slapping silver on it would just seem wrong spiritually, to me at least. I am 60 and have played all my life. I have an old Martin Committee horn. It will always stay as it is now. As for the smell of yours? Try some scented dish soap and let it soak a long time, minus valves and felts. Dish soap won't hurt it at all.
My understanding is that even though this is an old instrument, it doesn’t have any collector appeal beyond the fact that it is in playable condition. The French Bessons are much more sought after than these which are called “London” Bessons. I did decide to st least get the first and third slide reversed to help make it even more playable at the modern standard - will certainly post an update video when the work is complete!
Just watched this with my wife to better understand a 100 year old trumpet we found at an estate sale. Great video and love your passion for this instrument! :)
I just found a New York Musical Instrument Company "New Yorker" cornet serial #1. It was black in color before I cleaned it. I am waiting for a mouth piece to arrive to play it. I think it is around 100 years old. The only thing close I could find is in the Amercan National History Museum in Washington DC.
Very cool! Antique instruments are so fascinating.
I think clear lacquer is the way to go. It preserves the instrument, stops the smell, and, most importantly, is easily removed by the person on charge of preserving this heritage instrument 50 years or so from now.
Raw brass can be toxic or allergy prone to some players, and yes old raw brass can affect the nasal appraisal🤧. I have a Conn Victor 80A that was made in 1918. The previous owner had it silver plated with a gold wash inside the bell. The bell has beautiful engraving all the way back to the bend and the silver plating makes it look stunning. I am sure Anderson's Plating can make it look splendid!
I have the same instrument in silver - and it's great. I haven't had any work done on it (I've seen your follow-up video) but when I was in conservatoire, there were some things it just seemed to do really well. I would use it in the orchestra sometimes.
Your tone is incredible.
It sound better than the Yamahas. Do not silver plate it. Leave as is, and just play it!
the bottom D and C# to be fair were pretty much in tune without a third valve trigger. pretty good in my opinion. i have an old Martin trumpet from 1918 amongst many more but i think one of my favorites is another martin, the model escapes me at the minute and that's from 1934, really smokey sound, not a committee, i have a couple of those, probably an imperial. lovely trumpet. keep yours as is, doesn't need blinging up.
I have my grandfather’s Conn 22B NY Symphony. It came with a B flat tuning slide, which went missing sometime before it came to me, and a B flat/A tuning slide. It has a silver satin finish and the interior of the bell is gold plated. The finish is pretty rough. Plays great though.
I have a 1933 William Frank Trumpet.all the inner slides are nickel,It has no First or third valve slide rings ,but the pipes are longer.Has a great tone with old dark lacquer. Great valve compression with bottom spring nickel vale’s. Has a great Frank 20 mouthpiece similar to a Back 3 c
Sounds beautiful!
A rare find worthy for a professional. The Besson was truly the standard setter. Amazing to see the horn in such a high state of preservation, for the brass in those days had more % of zinc, and thus rot. I would clear coat, not plate, the horn. I believe the brass is the main reason for the distinctive timbre of the Bessons. But not all Bessons, of the 1920 era, are equal. "Besson" refers only to the horns branded by Besson, UK; which includes horns made in UK and Europe: today we use the term out-sourced. This caused no 2 horns to be exactly alike in sound and playability. This continued for over 25 years, which gave rise to the desire of performers to have much more consistency. Besson was acquired by Boosey in 1948, whose motivation was market share and profits, not to further develop the horn. By that time, Bach horns were gaining a high reputation for better sound and playability, earning the accolade of Stradivarius of trumpets. Pros switched to Bach and the rest is history. To this day, I prefer still the sound of Bach trumpets for symphonic works.
Great video Jon! The A side has such a lovely sound.. thanks for sharing with us!
Thanks, Ryan! I agree. I realized after posting I didn’t really show the Bb side but the A side just warms my soul ❤️
beautiful playing!
I was waiting for even a brief demo of the original mouthpiece.
I think a lot of craftmanship can be hidden by silver plating. If anything, I'd have it restored to a polished finish with a good clear lacquer. Reach out to Charlie Melk.
Interesting -- I'm looking at buying one possibly, although I lack understanding of why a F. Besson is worth so much more than an English Besson. I wonder at how the Bessons compare to each other. They do look fairly similar, although the 2nd valve slide points forward on the F. Besson, for instance, but both are early "modern" trumpets. I mostly play on a 1926 Conn trumpet, as I could afford it : )
Man! What a great find!! I had a beautiful silver-plated 1949 Besson Meha that I LOVED! Great sound, EZ response upstairs then, some A-Hole stole it...never to be found again...one of my teachers had a 1936 Besson, I can't recall if it was the Meha or Brevette...it needed a LOT of work though...I also loved the old Besson cases with the Alligator skin style
Thanks, I love playing this instrument! So sorry to hear about the stolen horn... always a shame.
Great trumpet! Such an age but still in condition and tone! I've got a Besson Stradford, it is something like 70-s production. I compared it to Yamaha 6335 and it is also way more slim and also has a thinner leadpipe than Yamaha, and a bell actually the same size as Yamaha. The sound is more brassy and sharp, but Yamaha has more middles in tone on forte and very smooth commercial-sounding transitions.
I have 2 100 year old trumpets. Both are Wurlitzer professional trumpets but one was made in the United States and the other was made in Austria.
Excellent video.
If it were me I would not get this horn plated. Many of these older Besson trumpets had a wonderful ring to them. I think the silver plating would damped it.
You sound great!
I liked it!
Renaissance wax would help coat the raw brass in a finish that can be removed whenever you need, or also added to whenever you need.
Thanks for the suggestion - I’ll look into it! Thanks for watching!! 🤓🎺
@@JonTalksTrumpet It's used in museums around the world to help preserve antiques. It has neutral PH so causes no harm to the object being treated and it's odourless and completely transparent.
That’s amazing!! What a niche product - thanks for contributing that awesome bit of info!
Sounds amazing!! Would also work amazing ins Stravinsky’s Octet. I would definitely consider silver playing or giving it a brushed lacquer finish. Would you add triggers to the 1st and 3rd slides?
Yeah, I'm definitely thinking silver plate would be nice since I plan to keep it. I've thought about adding some kind of rings or triggers, but I also am a little hesitant since it's still in it's original configuration after all these years and am not sure how many things would have to be altered to make those tuning aids work well. Glad you enjoyed the video!
I just picked up a 1955 Olds Ambassador Fremont, CA. for CDN $40. Had to solder off the tuning slides to get them out. Might need some plating on the valves due to lack of use. Plan to have it restored. The case looked like yours, and smelled really bad. It had to go into the garbage. The horn only smells a little.
THAT'S REALLY COOL. Do you have any information on how long the open tubing is? The old advertisement said 19 inches, but what about the tube length of old trumpets (if they were uncoiled)? Do modern B flat trumpets have the same tube length as the cornett when it came out in 1830?
I'm no expert, but I think it depends on the pitch of the instrument. Modern Pitch instruments are tuned to A=440 which leads to a certain "uncoiled" length, while I know at some point historically instruments were made in High and Low pitch which would be shorter and longer overall lengths.
I shy away from horns that old because I like a brighter sound but you sounded very good. My English Brevette and 609 are good players for me.
Does anyone know if a Besson 5A mouthpiece would be smaller than a 6A? The 6A works well for me. How do they categorize their cup sizes?
Fun. The yammies sound better tho. I once has a small bore Conn 22b from 1957. Sad I sold it for next to nothing. It wasn't loud enough for bigband but played quite lyrically and easy.
Great playing, I would definitely play this everyday for improv, it has such a punch and emotion.
That is a really beautiful sound. Is it hard work generating that tone or does it come fairly naturally to the instrument? And how much do you have to work to keep it in tune?
It can have a beautiful sound if I'm putting a beautiful sound into it. :) The intonation is not bad at all but certainly takes some tweaking of the slide positions and some practice with drones. The low D and C# are most of the issue... or any of the "longer" fingering really since ideally I would be able to move the 1st and 3rd valve slides while I'm playing in order for those to all line up just right. But the chops are stronger than the slides so it's not impossible, but it does have a learning curve.
@@JonTalksTrumpet Have you thought about seeing if you can get triggers added to the first and third valve slides? That might help with switching between A & Bb as well as sorting out those problematic fingerings.
If you plan to use th instrument much I'd say go for the silver plating and investigate adding triggers. If you are more interested in keeping it as a museum piece then don't fiddle with it.
Definitely silverplate. Where did you find one of those in such good shape?
Thanks for the input, Josh! I got it from an orchestra colleagues father who is well known in the trumpet community who had kept it in collector level condition. Definitely considering the silver plate, will do a followup video some day!
Perfectly in-tune you say? If something sounds too good to be true, it probably is :P
Definitely does not play perfectly in tune. 😂 But they probably had different/fewer laws about what you could claim in ads back then 🤣
I prefer the Besson. That horn is a job Keeper.
Yes, isn't it wonderful? I've had some changes made to it to make it even better and more usable - stay tuned!
Is it worth repairing restoring my Besson Prototype London and Fischer Trumpet? I can send the serial number later.
A little late to the game on comments here, but I'm a tech and I did want to weigh in on the "smell" and the plating dilemma.
From my perspective, no home bath is a replacement for a regular chemical clean. Which chemical is used is a matter of discussion, but the standard industry dips/ultrasonic solutions contain an acid component as well as a powerful surfactant to carry dirt away. If the horn smells, then that is going to be a result of surface oxidation of the brass further reacting to components in the air to create a lingering smell. Normal soap and water in a home flush will not touch this. You really need a professional clean.
One benefit of raw brass is that it can be polished. You do not need to buff an instrument to maintain a beautiful shine. Mounted on a mandrel, and hand-ragged with a minimally abrasive product like Flitz (do NOT use brasso!), a bare brass instrument like yours can be brought to showroom shine, and to maintain that brilliant shine would mean a half hour to an hour of work as little as twice a year.
I think a little cosemetic maintenance, mentioned above, is well worth the intimacy and brilliance of an unfettered brass sound. But since silver and gold tarnish less quickly, people eventually gravitated toward those finishes to maintain a bare metal sound with less work. If you really want to go through the expense and effort, just go all the way and have it gold plated IMO. But know that a "new" finish will accentuate any "old" flaws. A simple hand polish on the old brass will blend in better with any old nicks or scratches.
How can a clean out the smell from inside my old trumpet? It has a lot of green patina
I own a conn 58b that is 100 years old
It Still have a Great Sound Compare to All these Chinese Trumpets we get in My Country. 😢 WELL DONE SIR
Mouthpiece?
Great video. Maybe wear gloves when you play that trumpet. I know that smell oh too well from some school brass instruments that should have been retired years ago. Lol 😂
I would not change the finish on this horn. It is an antique. It will ruin any future collector appeal and price. That said, who really wants to buy an old trumpet other than a trumpet player? I am not sure. That old finish has character. Slapping silver on it would just seem wrong spiritually, to me at least. I am 60 and have played all my life. I have an old Martin Committee horn. It will always stay as it is now. As for the smell of yours? Try some scented dish soap and let it soak a long time, minus valves and felts. Dish soap won't hurt it at all.
My understanding is that even though this is an old instrument, it doesn’t have any collector appeal beyond the fact that it is in playable condition. The French Bessons are much more sought after than these which are called “London” Bessons. I did decide to st least get the first and third slide reversed to help make it even more playable at the modern standard - will certainly post an update video when the work is complete!
That mouthpiece looks like my Bach Artisan . You might live longer if you don’t play that moldy trumpet . Lolo
Upside down embouchure. I can't even...
What do you mean by "upside down?"
If you silver plate it, you run the risk of losing most of the engraving.
爸爸的收藏，厉害了我的国，中国人民站起来了。