This is a great, informative video on piccolo trumpet and some of its baroque literature. I once turned some trombone mouthpieces for a symphony player family friend. The complexity of brass mouthpieces is astounding, and hope to watch more of your videos about brass in general. Thanks! 🙏🏻
I found this channel about a week ago and since then, I’ve binged every video that’s been uploaded. I’ve learned so much and I’ve discovered a trumpet geek in me I didn’t know existed. I absolutely can’t wait for the next video.
Same here! I just found this channel while researching piccolos. I hardly subscribe to anything on RUclips and this was a near automatic decision. Now I’m gonna go play horn for a bit!
Thank for this insightful video. This is one of the videos I've been waiting all my Trumpet playing LIFE! While in middle and high school I use to go to the city library, and open up encyclopedias just to Gaze a the Bb & C piccolo for hours! Wishing I could have one of them. Preferably the P5-4..which I think is the Best sounding, respectfully speaking. But really ANY piccolo would've done fine. But again, sincerely, thank you for sharing.
Hello Jon. Can you make a video talking about Cornet Mouthpieces? There is no much content about this on RUclips. Especially the Cornet-specific mouthpieces, with different cup and backbore. Because there is many trumpet mouhtpieces with cornet shank that are not ideal for the true cornet sound.
Take a big Bb, press down valves 1&3. I used to have a recording of me playing the Brandenburg 1st movement this way, using the third valve mobile slide to fix the tuning of the partials. Problem was that after the threw high A's I burst out laughing. It started as snorting through the instrument and then I went hysterical. . It must be on a backup drive somewhere.
I learned something new, I had never heard of a C piccolo trumpet before. I do have a B flat/A piccolo trumpet. You learn all kinds of alternate fingerings utilizing that fourth valve in order to improve intonation of "the little beast."
Hey Gustav! Maybe I will at some point, but it might be a while since I don't have any personal experience with that brand of mouthpieces. Thanks for the suggestion!
Mr. Schilke loved the "challenge" of making any odd-ball horn for somebody...I recall him making the D Pic for Tarr among other things...some 3 valved Hearld Trumpets...two Quarter-toned trumpets (one for Joe Marcinkiewicz and another for Lew Soloff)...he also had Kiefer Plating (long out of business) make some beryllium bells so thin (like 3.5 ounces) that if you held it up to a light, you could see the light through the throat (chock) section of the bell...he even made a Tuba 12lbs lighter than your standard Tuba for Chuck Daellenbach
I'm not sure what the weight of a "standard tuba" would be. Mine is 14lbs, some are over 30. It really depends a lot on key (Bb contrabass up to F bass), gauge thickness, and number of valves (3 to 6, with different tuning schemes). The final bell diameter of "standard" tubas ranges from 15" to 20", with many outliers both bigger and smaller. A French C tuba compared to a BBb Kaiser or York is hilariously different.
0:46 You forgot to mention about the Modern F Soprano Trumpet which can also play this part. The Highest note is a High D (easy cause it's w/ the 1st valve depresesd for better intonation) which is common when you extend your range.
Hey Oscar, sure it *can* be performed on the Modern F Soprano, but this has not been a common choice for anyone in the last half century. I have a Yamaha 9710 G/F trumpet and it is far more difficult to perform this piece on than on the modern Bb or C piccolo. Like T. Hall mentions, F soprano was an early choice for this piece shortly after the revival of the Brandenburg in the early 20th century, but the F trumpets of that time were often more similar in scale to modern Bb piccolo trumpets, not nearly as big as the 9710 or G1L.
@@JonTalksTrumpet Actually it can't be that hard cause it's in the same key as the Song so you're playing in C. That High D is the easiest to play in tune if you push down the 1st valve. You'll need to use a Screamer Mouthpiece to achive that High D above the Staff. Bill Vacchiano actually played this on the F Trumpet so maybe it should sound good.
A Modern F Trumpet can actually play this part too. The Baroque Trumpet (basically a Natural Trumpet with Finger Holes to make some notes more in tune) is twice the length of a Modern Trumpet so it's an Octave lower
I have always wanted to see someone do it on a Bb with 1+3 down (so it's effectively a natural F), but I can't imagine why anyone would put themselves through that pain and not use a real F.
I have a couple performances of Bach’s B Minor mass coming up and I plan to use a C picc because the timbre is a little smaller (to blend better with a small orchestra) and all of the solo passages and high concert Ds are easier than on an A picc. I find the intonation on my Yamaha 9910 is excellent, especially if I use a cornet mp and cornet-shank lead pipe.
My biggest annoyance with this piece is, like you said, that it's a concerto for four instruments, not just for trumpet. The other three soloists are just as important.
At some point "why not just use a natural (or vented if you like equal temperament tuning) trumpet" has to come up, right? It certainly solves the "some trills have tricky fingering" problem. lol.
Can i please ask something? When u told about the C picc not having a pinky ring for the needed mouthpiece pressure, is it alot or not? Cause i always learned mp pressure not good to have a proper functioning embocure, i'm asking this because i'm an Eb Cornet player (i know its a bit lower then those piccs but still xd) if more MP pressure is aquired to have a good tessitura on the instrument :))
I remember when I first heard a recording of Brandenburg #2 I was given a score in advance. By page three I was SURE that this was a mislabelled horn part. It just made so much more sense. Doing some research I did NOT come across a single surviving clarino (natural trumpet) in F pitch. Would a practically minded guy like Bach really ask for an instrument specially built for a one-off performance?!?! It gets worse: Bach's trumpeter (and fellow composer) Mr Reiche is famously pictured in a portrait painting with a ... guess what ... corno da caccia while clearly holding a part marked clarino. (A teacher of mine thinks, that is simply because he was "merely" a "church trumpeter", not a nobleman, so guild rules would have banned him from being pictured with that most noble of instruments ...). Or did he actually play horn on Brandenburg #2??? Even worserer: A choral conductor told me that pitch standards were so different from place to place that the trumpet might have been in D after all while the other instruments had transposed F parts to match the higher "church pitch" of the trumpet. Any thoughts or insights? BTW: Amazing playing, both of you, and your videos, Jon, are as brilliantly informative as they are witty. Greetings from Rotary Valve Country (aka Austria).
Wind instruments rarely survive over the years, unlike strings - the act of playing them degrades them, so the surviving instruments are necessarily the ones played the least. Quite a significant reduction, especially for an instrument as specialised as an F trumpet. Looking at the interplay between the soloists of Brandenburg 2 makes it clear that the part is for F trumpet and not F horn - it'd be weird to have one part hanging around an octave below the other three. The instrument in the portrait of Reiche is actually a tromba da caccia in F, not a corno da caccia or a church trumpet in D. Bach once did label the part "tromba o vero corno da caccia" (trumpet, otherwise horn), showing that he was prepared to accept performance on the horn while making clear that the intended instrument was the trumpet. (Side note, but Bach calls for two "flauti d'echo" in Brandenburg 4, and nobody is really sure what those are. The parts themselves perfectly fit the ranges of an alto recorder in G and an alto recorder in F respectively, but Bach knows what a recorder is, calling for a "flauto" = F alto recorder (not "traverso" = flute as Jon says in the video) in Brandenburg 2. What seems to be our best guess is a bizzare contraption consisting of a louder and a softer recorder attached together to give better dynamic control over the range of the instrument, sort of like the two manuals on a harpsichord.) On a modern high F trumpet, the part, while written at the correct written pitch, lies extremely high in the range of the instrument, going all the way up to written D above the staff. A good trumpeter should be able to transpose at sight, so there isn't really any advantage to using a high F trumpet as opposed to a Bb piccolo. Even better a C piccolo, where the part lies well in the tessitura of the instrument, and the transposition (up a 4th) is very common playing Baroque D parts on an A piccolo. you could also play the part on a valved low F trumpet if you wanted an unreasonable challenge or a piccolo trombone
No. The valve slides have to be mathematically derived from the length of the open instrument. Shortening the open instrument and lengthening the valve slides would result in the valve combinations being flat.
Certainly you could - on my instagram page I attempt that section on G trumpet and it did work better than expected. Back in the old days before piccolos really sounded or played well, several top orchestral players would use a soprano F trumpet on this.
@@RockStarOscarStern634 True, but there would be lots of g2/a2 trills on the F trumpet. f2/g2 might be a lot easier, but it sounds interesting. Do you know a recording/video played on F?
@@RockStarOscarStern634 I'll remember that if I ever get good enough to try Brandenburg 2 🙂At this point my strategy would be to categorically swear it's written for corno da caccia and play it one octave lover on the flugelhorn 😜
Certainly you could play it on a modern F “soprano” trumpet, but I bet most people would find it to be a step up in difficulty from playing it on a piccolo. I think there was an early 20th century performance of it by… who was it… maybe Adolf Sherbaum?… who played it on a soprano F trumpet. The high concert G would be a D above high C on the F soprano trumpet.
@@JonTalksTrumpet Actually if they used a shorter bell they could make the valve slides a bit longer which means they could also make a high D piccolo trumpet (an octave above the d trumpet).
Whenever you feel useless, remember that there's a pinkey ring on the C piccolo.
This is a great, informative video on piccolo trumpet and some of its baroque literature. I once turned some trombone mouthpieces for a symphony player family friend. The complexity of brass mouthpieces is astounding, and hope to watch more of your videos about brass in general. Thanks! 🙏🏻
I found this channel about a week ago and since then, I’ve binged every video that’s been uploaded. I’ve learned so much and I’ve discovered a trumpet geek in me I didn’t know existed. I absolutely can’t wait for the next video.
WOAH! That's awesome!!! Welcome aboard Nathaniel - glad to have you here and to have your support!
Same here! I just found this channel while researching piccolos. I hardly subscribe to anything on RUclips and this was a near automatic decision. Now I’m gonna go play horn for a bit!
When's your next video coming out?
Jon talked, and he talked about trumpet. This channel does not lie, 5 stars.
Mind blowing varieties of trumpets I never even knew existed! Great insight and fantastic renditions 👏👏👏🎺🎶🎺
most under rated youtube channel, still waiting for an upload! lol
Working on it!!! Big video coming next - love these big research projects!
Thank for this insightful video. This is one of the videos I've been waiting all my Trumpet playing LIFE! While in middle and high school I use to go to the city library, and open up encyclopedias just to Gaze a the Bb & C piccolo for hours! Wishing I could have one of them. Preferably the P5-4..which I think is the Best sounding, respectfully speaking. But really ANY piccolo would've done fine. But again, sincerely, thank you for sharing.
Hello Jon. Can you make a video talking about Cornet Mouthpieces? There is no much content about this on RUclips. Especially the Cornet-specific mouthpieces, with different cup and backbore. Because there is many trumpet mouhtpieces with cornet shank that are not ideal for the true cornet sound.
Take a big Bb, press down valves 1&3. I used to have a recording of me playing the Brandenburg 1st movement this way, using the third valve mobile slide to fix the tuning of the partials. Problem was that after the threw high A's I burst out laughing. It started as snorting through the instrument and then I went hysterical. . It must be on a backup drive somewhere.
Haha!! Yes. Sounds like a horrible experience… I may have given it a go with VERY unsatisfactory results… 🤣🤣🤣
Finally more videos!
Yay! So glad to get another one out! Thanks for your support 😀
Once again, the best content on RUclips
This is very interesting! 🎺
I really liked this video as a fellow trumpetist but was kind of upset to notice you dont upload anymore. I would love to see more videos like this😊
Hey! I am alive and working on another video. Life sometimes just gets in the way. 🤓
More content! Missing your stuff man! Wondering what you think about Pickett mouthpieces. Hope all is well.
I learned something new, I had never heard of a C piccolo trumpet before. I do have a B flat/A piccolo trumpet. You learn all kinds of alternate fingerings utilizing that fourth valve in order to improve intonation of "the little beast."
Amazing content! TKS!
Can you do a video on Warburton mouthpieces? Would be really interesting!
Hey Gustav! Maybe I will at some point, but it might be a while since I don't have any personal experience with that brand of mouthpieces. Thanks for the suggestion!
It's very adorable
Mr. Schilke loved the "challenge" of making any odd-ball horn for somebody...I recall him making the D Pic for Tarr among other things...some 3 valved Hearld Trumpets...two Quarter-toned trumpets (one for Joe Marcinkiewicz and another for Lew Soloff)...he also had Kiefer Plating (long out of business) make some beryllium bells so thin (like 3.5 ounces) that if you held it up to a light, you could see the light through the throat (chock) section of the bell...he even made a Tuba 12lbs lighter than your standard Tuba for Chuck Daellenbach
I'm not sure what the weight of a "standard tuba" would be. Mine is 14lbs, some are over 30. It really depends a lot on key (Bb contrabass up to F bass), gauge thickness, and number of valves (3 to 6, with different tuning schemes). The final bell diameter of "standard" tubas ranges from 15" to 20", with many outliers both bigger and smaller. A French C tuba compared to a BBb Kaiser or York is hilariously different.
0:46 You forgot to mention about the Modern F Soprano Trumpet which can also play this part. The Highest note is a High D (easy cause it's w/ the 1st valve depresesd for better intonation) which is common when you extend your range.
You mean the little horn Bill Vacchiano used when he recorded the Brandenburg?
Hey Oscar, sure it *can* be performed on the Modern F Soprano, but this has not been a common choice for anyone in the last half century. I have a Yamaha 9710 G/F trumpet and it is far more difficult to perform this piece on than on the modern Bb or C piccolo. Like T. Hall mentions, F soprano was an early choice for this piece shortly after the revival of the Brandenburg in the early 20th century, but the F trumpets of that time were often more similar in scale to modern Bb piccolo trumpets, not nearly as big as the 9710 or G1L.
@@JonTalksTrumpet Actually it can't be that hard cause it's in the same key as the Song so you're playing in C. That High D is the easiest to play in tune if you push down the 1st valve. You'll need to use a Screamer Mouthpiece to achive that High D above the Staff. Bill Vacchiano actually played this on the F Trumpet so maybe it should sound good.
Love your videos. I’ve owned the discontinued Bb, A, C Yamaha. Ended up selling it. Good horn though.
You should see and try the Zirnbauer rotary Piccolo…amazingly easy to play..German Craftmanship
I would love to someday!
YES!!!
Yup!!! 🤓🎺
A Modern F Trumpet can actually play this part too. The Baroque Trumpet (basically a Natural Trumpet with Finger Holes to make some notes more in tune) is twice the length of a Modern Trumpet so it's an Octave lower
I have always wanted to see someone do it on a Bb with 1+3 down (so it's effectively a natural F), but I can't imagine why anyone would put themselves through that pain and not use a real F.
@@seth094978 An F Soprano Trumpet puts the music in the Key of C which is more familiar.
I have a couple performances of Bach’s B Minor mass coming up and I plan to use a C picc because the timbre is a little smaller (to blend better with a small orchestra) and all of the solo passages and high concert Ds are easier than on an A picc. I find the intonation on my Yamaha 9910 is excellent, especially if I use a cornet mp and cornet-shank lead pipe.
My biggest annoyance with this piece is, like you said, that it's a concerto for four instruments, not just for trumpet. The other three soloists are just as important.
Cool channel. I'll stick with my piccolo piccolo 🥳
At some point "why not just use a natural (or vented if you like equal temperament tuning) trumpet" has to come up, right? It certainly solves the "some trills have tricky fingering" problem. lol.
Instead of valve trills, they'll be lip trills.
Yamaha should make C Piccolo Trumpets again
Yes, I completely agree!!! I bet they could design an even better one now, if there was enough demand for it 👀👀👀
@@JonTalksTrumpet There's more demand for it & even better they'll also have one pitched in the key of B Natrual
Can you do a review on the lotus mouthpieces
Can i please ask something? When u told about the C picc not having a pinky ring for the needed mouthpiece pressure, is it alot or not? Cause i always learned mp pressure not good to have a proper functioning embocure, i'm asking this because i'm an Eb Cornet player (i know its a bit lower then those piccs but still xd) if more MP pressure is aquired to have a good tessitura on the instrument :))
I remember when I first heard a recording of Brandenburg #2 I was given a score in advance. By page three I was SURE that this was a mislabelled horn part. It just made so much more sense. Doing some research I did NOT come across a single surviving clarino (natural trumpet) in F pitch. Would a practically minded guy like Bach really ask for an instrument specially built for a one-off performance?!?!
It gets worse: Bach's trumpeter (and fellow composer) Mr Reiche is famously pictured in a portrait painting with a ... guess what ... corno da caccia while clearly holding a part marked clarino. (A teacher of mine thinks, that is simply because he was "merely" a "church trumpeter", not a nobleman, so guild rules would have banned him from being pictured with that most noble of instruments ...). Or did he actually play horn on Brandenburg #2???
Even worserer: A choral conductor told me that pitch standards were so different from place to place that the trumpet might have been in D after all while the other instruments had transposed F parts to match the higher "church pitch" of the trumpet.
Any thoughts or insights?
BTW: Amazing playing, both of you, and your videos, Jon, are as brilliantly informative as they are witty. Greetings from Rotary Valve Country (aka Austria).
A High F Soprano Trumpet might help
Wind instruments rarely survive over the years, unlike strings - the act of playing them degrades them, so the surviving instruments are necessarily the ones played the least. Quite a significant reduction, especially for an instrument as specialised as an F trumpet.
Looking at the interplay between the soloists of Brandenburg 2 makes it clear that the part is for F trumpet and not F horn - it'd be weird to have one part hanging around an octave below the other three. The instrument in the portrait of Reiche is actually a tromba da caccia in F, not a corno da caccia or a church trumpet in D.
Bach once did label the part "tromba o vero corno da caccia" (trumpet, otherwise horn), showing that he was prepared to accept performance on the horn while making clear that the intended instrument was the trumpet.
(Side note, but Bach calls for two "flauti d'echo" in Brandenburg 4, and nobody is really sure what those are. The parts themselves perfectly fit the ranges of an alto recorder in G and an alto recorder in F respectively, but Bach knows what a recorder is, calling for a "flauto" = F alto recorder (not "traverso" = flute as Jon says in the video) in Brandenburg 2. What seems to be our best guess is a bizzare contraption consisting of a louder and a softer recorder attached together to give better dynamic control over the range of the instrument, sort of like the two manuals on a harpsichord.)
On a modern high F trumpet, the part, while written at the correct written pitch, lies extremely high in the range of the instrument, going all the way up to written D above the staff. A good trumpeter should be able to transpose at sight, so there isn't really any advantage to using a high F trumpet as opposed to a Bb piccolo. Even better a C piccolo, where the part lies well in the tessitura of the instrument, and the transposition (up a 4th) is very common playing Baroque D parts on an A piccolo.
you could also play the part on a valved low F trumpet if you wanted an unreasonable challenge
or a piccolo trombone
Hi J can you make video "how i know if my mp is too big or small" ?
Sure, I'll add it to my list of topics - a great suggestion!
Um curious How low do they Go.
Talking of playing in the Clarino range? Guess now why the clarinet was invented? That range is most trivial to play on clarinet (the small clarion!)
If they used a shorter bell then they could make the valve slides a bit longer
No. The valve slides have to be mathematically derived from the length of the open instrument. Shortening the open instrument and lengthening the valve slides would result in the valve combinations being flat.
@@THall-vi8cp The technology will need to be more advanced to make it easier
@@THall-vi8cp The F/G Piccolo Trumpet made by Yamaha keeps the same 2nd valve slide due to advanced technology they used
Nah, the 2nd valve slide is just a compromise length between F/G, no advanced technology there
@@JonTalksTrumpet The YTR-9710 has a 2nd Valve Slide designed for both F & G keys
Not flute, but recorder. The flute (Or transverse flute) is only used in the 5th concerto.
Has anyone tried the opposite direction: Playing Brandenburg 2 on a G-Piccolo? Would put it in Bb Major with the highest note becoming a straight c3
Certainly you could - on my instagram page I attempt that section on G trumpet and it did work better than expected. Back in the old days before piccolos really sounded or played well, several top orchestral players would use a soprano F trumpet on this.
@@JonTalksTrumpet The F Soprano Trumpet same key as the music
@@RockStarOscarStern634 True, but there would be lots of g2/a2 trills on the F trumpet. f2/g2 might be a lot easier, but it sounds interesting. Do you know a recording/video played on F?
@@chrisoakmountain2387 Actually that trill is easier w/ the 1st & 3rd valves
@@RockStarOscarStern634 I'll remember that if I ever get good enough to try Brandenburg 2 🙂At this point my strategy would be to categorically swear it's written for corno da caccia and play it one octave lover on the flugelhorn 😜
These trumpets look like they were designed by someone who was high
Were is the music?
Trent Hamilton made a trumpet an octave higher then a normal piccolo bflat
You forgot to mention that famous contemporary piccolo trumpet solo in The Beatles' "Penny Lane".
Hey Jose! I'm pretty sure that solo was done on a Bb piccolo, not a C piccolo - but I'd love to be proven wrong! Thanks for watching!
Or you can get a super piccolo trumpet made by Trent
Who’s gonna tell this dude that Trent Hamilton already beat him to the punch
This instrument is an Octave above the C Trumpet.
Yup!!
@@JonTalksTrumpet The Modern F Trumpet does an amazing job at playing the Brandenburg 2
Certainly you could play it on a modern F “soprano” trumpet, but I bet most people would find it to be a step up in difficulty from playing it on a piccolo. I think there was an early 20th century performance of it by… who was it… maybe Adolf Sherbaum?… who played it on a soprano F trumpet. The high concert G would be a D above high C on the F soprano trumpet.
@@JonTalksTrumpet Yes you would need to use a screamer mouthpiece to hit that D above the Staff which is how Bach wrote it
@@JonTalksTrumpet Actually if they used a shorter bell they could make the valve slides a bit longer which means they could also make a high D piccolo trumpet (an octave above the d trumpet).
The F Natural Trumpet is Twice as long as the Modern F Soprano Trumpet so it's an Octave down.