@@phileasler5401 Just wait untill the Federal and state governments add use taxes to compensate for the lost revenue from falling gasoline sales. Will end up taking as much out of your pocket as an ICE vehicle.
in 2010 the cost of Lithium ion batteries were $1,200 per kWh. In 2022 they are approaching $125 per kWh. Current supply chain, Covid and inflation have slowed down and even increased the short term price. Overall, the prices have dramatically declined over the past 12 years
@@tombudetti5502 Propane and Diesel were once far cheaper then Gas until these started to be used for car/trucks. Right now your paying a an infrastructure maintenance tax on fuels, wait until these taxes catch up to EV'S. I have been building battery packs for years, and my costs are rising yearly.
@@tombudetti5502 So, a Lightning battery would've cost $340,000 in 2010? Yeah, right. Also, certain per unit productions cost fall with scale, but the cost of materials will not, as supply is limited. Materials like Lithium have increased in price by 1,000% from 2005 to 2018, or just before the pandemic, so you can't blame Covid for the upward trend.
Just sold our EV , it needed batteries and controller at a cost of $ 32,000 , their out of their minds. we sold it that a huge loss. We are done with all EV
What you forget or unaware of is when it's cold you lose battery power or amp hrs. When it's hot you lose amp hrs. And it effects the life of the battery.
It’s overstated. The draw from climate control is a lot less than driving. An EV buss operator in Alaska said his watts/mile was worse in the winter until he insulated his battery box. When it’s cold it will power a heater and when warm it’s running a dedicated AC system.
@@danh8302 The problem isn't the battery freezing up, its lost range, I live in Minnesota and a 10 degree could be considered a heat wave, and at 20 degrees you lose on average 30% of said range, ( depending on make and model) the worst I seen in studies was BMW which was reduction of 50% < but most that were tested were actually worse then 30% most were around 35% - 40%. in loss.
Not only did dirty Joe leave 84 bill $ of military weapons in Afghan E Stan but they had trillions of lithium reserves.. Thanks Joe _Your Chinese Masters
@@stevenbass732 Absolutely false, Li is abundant, plenty in Nevada alone to supply US needs indefinitely, it's all about the time it takes to permit (in the USA) and ramp mining and refining.
No. They will continue lower as they have for decades tho at reduced rate of change. Original Tesla roadster batts cost around $120k ea to make, much better batts today cost them about $10k and projected to head toward $5k. Beyond that newer gen LFP batts will last twice as long and even cheaper to make. For every doubling in batt production cost drops by a constant rate, around 30%.
So you save no money at all. My '21 Tundra will be so much cheaper than any electric truck over time. The cost outweighs the performance of electric vehicles.
What are you talking over time? You’re already saving money because of the entry cost to get that vehicle. I have a 2021 tundra as well and whether we’re getting bad and PG is irrelevant because we didn’t spend an absolute fortune getting a vehicle in the first place, trying to maintain status your technology, and then trying to recoup money later that eventually you lose when you have to replace the battery for $20,000. Is someone that hates their money would buy an electric vehicle.
Cheaper over time? Would it surprise you that you will spend about $40,000 just for gas over 200,000 miles assuming an optimistic average gas price of $3.50/gal. So much more in CA. This doesn't count the many thousands spent on oil changes and other ICE only maintenance. Remember that the battery packs on most EVs will go 200K. Much further than most owners will ever keep their vehicles.
@@Josh-179 HAHAHAHAHAHA! I love the Church of Global Warming members like you. My Tundra cost $48,100 out the door. A truck by the way. Not a car but a truck. A Tesla Model Y (the same size as a Corolla), is $70,000 out the door. That's a price difference of $21,900. To just break even on the entry cost on a Model Y vs. a Toyota Fucking Tundra is 100,000 miles of driving. Now, you compared Commiefornia in gas prices lets talk about the charging in Commiefornia which because of horrifically high energy prices it is $48-$102 to charge one time according to CBS article from February 2022. I payed $83 to fill up my Tundra today and it took five minutes. So, you are trying to tell me to drive your Corolla size car is cheaper when in actuality it is close to the same price...but you can't do jack fucking shit with that car compared to my truck. Do NOT even get me started when comparing my Acura TLX that gets 36 mpg on the highway with a 3.5L V6. There is no comparison! So, take your Communist Democrat Church of Global Warming Bullshit, and your poorly built EV idles, and stick them up your stretched out hairy ass!
There is no reason to buy EV's. They don't save you ANY money. Maybe in 5 years... but there are way too many issues with EV ownership with zero gain. People trick themselves into thinking they save money because of Gas, but you spend WAY more on EV then all the money you save from gas in the cars lifetime.
In my specific case, I bought a brand new vehicle for $35000 (Toyota 4runner) Which I've now had for 6 years, without a single hiccup. I couldn't imagine in 10 years having to essentially repurchase that vehicle just to keep it on the road....no chance
@@jeffforbes70 Maybe. You're assuming that the aftermarket part of the market will become comparable to ICE market. It might not. Lithium is a FAR more limited resource.
@@asajayunknown6290 lithium is trading at 74000 per ton as of 8/2022 up from 8 000 per ton 2019.the one thing about greed it spurs innovation the will find a replacement for lithium or ev s growth will stall
We had a 2012 Lincoln MKZ Hybrid. When we traded it had 170k miles. We bought at 40k miles. It went from 44 mpg to 32 mpg during that time. Had minimal issues with the car, I believe Hybrid is still the better option until the EV gets better range. We traded the Lincoln for a Toyota Highlander Hybrid
If your mileage dropped 25%, something was really wrong (on the hybrid EV side). I purchased my 2011 F-150 in 2015 with 140k miles, it's now over 250k, mileage and power hasn't changed significantly (less than 10% for sure) which has no hybrid component.
Well said! I still have to wonder if one lives in say a non arid area of North America, just how much range will there be in the cooler/ winter months of the year??? Notice like all the test driving seems to be done in places like Arizona?
Way to stay optimistic Tim! Flying cars or vehicles with 2000 miles or range in ten years 😄. People back from the space race days are still waiting for that.
Flying cars do exist but regulations and factories to build them in is a big hurdle that has to be overcome. Six hundred mile EV's exist in China and will be her this winter. 1000 mile plus ones will be here in 5 years and yes that means 500 mile towing for the truck versions. 2040-2050: 9000 mile EV's; even if it takes 24 hours for a full charge (it won't) why would anyone care with enough range to cross the country, coast to coast, 3 times?
If a battery loses 2-3% per year and they lose significant range in the cold. Could you imagine driving a 10 year old truck in the cold. What a disaster that sounds like. I’ll stick to gas vehicles.
I've owned my 2005 Ford f350 for 17 years and two hundred six thousand miles as a construction work truck and other than regular wear items like brakes and batteries it hasn't cost me more than 3000 dollars in repairs and I'm still willing to drive it anywhere without fear of breaking down
Very interesting perspective. I have been an automotive technician and shop owner for over 40 years and I think it is way too early to get into the electric game. Having worked on forwards a lot in my career I bet that battery will be discontinued in 8 years. As far as recycling I don't think they have a good method for that yet and/or cost effective. I think it could and should happen I just don't think we're there right now and with the economy and the world intermoil this is not the right time.
notice how hard it is to get OEM parts after 10 years for some ICE cars. as you said, obsolete. but the aftermarket im sure will prevail as they have been already doing some great work with reusing EV stuff.
I happen to work in the recycling business and you are correct. It is extremely difficult to recycle these batteries. They are nothing like the good old led acid batteries. To my knowledge there is only one company doing that type of salvaging. Further more it takes five tons of mining just to acquire the materials needed for a single battery. And if you live in the south east our power is coal and nuclear so your actually doing more harm to the environment than driving a gas burner.
what most people don't see is the boom in the secondary market for used batteries.... and it's not for automotive use. They are going into alternative power uses where weight and size are not the same issue as with cars. Basically using them till they have maybe 30% capacity left, so another 10 years.
I'm done with electric cars, I went back to gasoline because of all hassle associated with electric cars and trucks ! No more for me , I've learned my lesson and my " ELECTRIC CAR ANXIETY SYNDROME IS GONE " ... Happy days are here again !!
I feel sorry for electric car drivers and future owners. They will simply have to learn the hard way .. as I did. These things are a huge hassle, all those lost hours sitting in those charging stations, huge anxiety, plus a outrageous expense in the long run. Good luck trying to sell a used Electric car with wore out battery modules. You'll find out nobody wants to pay the ridiculous price of batteries ... Batteries are very ... very expensive to replace ( thousands and thousands of dollars) ... and make no mistake, you will be replacing them. These batteries are highly toxic to our environment, with a high potential for disaster to our surroundings. DON'T FOOL YOURSELF and CERTAINLY, DON'T LISTEN TO A SALESMAN, ... THEY WILL SAY ANYTHING, DO ANYTHING TO MAKE A SALE ! THESE NEW SPECIALIZED AUTOMOTIVE GRADE BATTERIES ... ARE NOT GREEN CLEAN ENERGY BY ANY MEANS! ... I wish I knew all this before I bought my car . Do your homework before buying !
I lose about a minute a day plugging in my car, in my garage. The next morning its charged to 80% (right where I set it to be charged) at a cost of 80% less (in the warmer months) and at a cost of 65% (in the colder months) of what gasoline would cost me. No oil changes, no transmission fluid to replace, no engine coolant to replace, no exhaust system to replace, brakes that should last the life of the car due to regenerative braking. I do get too pay the state an extra $100 per year to make up for the lost gas tax revenue. Yes your big mistake was listening to the salesman, maybe some day you'll learn to know more about a vehicle you're about to purchase than anyone at the dealership, before you step on their lot.
@@phileasler5401 EV = Bigger $$ for battery replacement. And worth less at trade in, due to dealers saying the battery needs replaced and can't give you anything for it.
Excellent analysis, EV’s are both here to stay and not for everyone. I bought my Dodge 1500 new in ‘02 and with minor maintenance over the years it still runs well.
Hell i can top that. I got a 1993 ford ranger ive put 360.000 miles on that still puring. I've done bought a back up engine for when the time comes. I haven't had a truck payment in 27 years😂
@@raytycker1656 But it took modern technology to raise them to where they are now. If they had been viable Edison and Westinghouse would have been all over them.
Well, got you beat. Still driving my 1965 Plymouth Valiant, as new. Just put in new suspension parts, That's all, but no need to buy another vehicle for 50 years.
The thing about the warranty for 8 years is if the battery craps out within the warranty period doesn't mean they will give you a "brand spanking new" battery for replacement. The can install a rebuilt or reconditioned or remanufactured battery. Choose your own term. Same with transmissions, brake calipers, etc. All car companies do this for their warranty work. They don't necessarily install "new" parts for warranty repairs, just factory certified or authorized replacements.
Ev manufacturers and dealers are saying ev batteries are safe, kind of reminds me of tobacco producers saying the same thing about their products,.... we all know how that turned out !! Manufacturers will say anything to make a sale... Get out of the EV market while you can, it's not safe !
I enjoy watching your informational videos about vehicles. I don’t own an EV and at this time and don’t think I can afford one because the models I want are over 100K, but I appreciate the time you put into your videos.
Also, an engine will likely far outlive a battery. And when the engine does fail, it can be rebuilt indefinitely. My father had a 44 year old truck with its original rebuilt engine in it, still running when he sold it, which he rebuilt only once in 380,000 miles miles. What's more, you could rebuild that truck's powertrain half a dozen times for less than the cost of one battery.
Yeah but you can buy a new 5.0L V8 coyote engine for an f150 for a faction of the price of the ev truck battery. Heck you could buy the engine, trans, entire engine bay, new axles, etc for less than a battery.
I think that was a very fair EV analysis, I appreciate you really going through the pros & cons! This only reinforces my personal position (for me only) that I will not even consider an EV truck for the time being, probably at least for the next 10 years or so (range would have to more or less double, charging would have to be MUCH faster, charging stations would have to be MUCH more prevalent AND the prices would have to come down). At the same time, I would consider an EV car right now if our commuter/runabout car needed to be replaced...I think we will just run that into the ground, then by that time, EV's should be much more competitive with ICE's and we will likely buy one then.
Next gen trucks like Sliverado EV run a 800volt system vs a 400 volt in lighthing - so twice as fast charging. Could easily roadtrip just with normal food/pee breaks. That being said - towing more then 100 miles isnt a thing yet. Towing just eats range so fast
@@1personalt Good points Rich, charging twice as fast would be helpful. We will be towing around 12k lbs, and we would like the option to travel 600 miles or more in a day (could maybe live with 400 miles in a day), so I think the EV truck is quite a ways off for us. An EV car/small SUV however, could come much quicker for us.
🇺🇸 the new battery won't retro fit! Ford wants you to buy a new truck. Not a new battery. Samsung Apple don't want you to buy a new battery for a phone 3yrs old. They want you to buy a new phone!
@@mikenb11_51 the Japanese have a 11k ev they dropped the purchase price by 50 percent by renting the batteries for 12 dollars per month you get 1500 miles takes 2 minutes for the machine to install fully charged battery
I have a 1967 Chevy and it runs about as well as it did 55 years ago and probably will for another 50 years. If it had been an EV I would have had to spend a TON of money to get it out of the garage by now. New batteries every 5-10 year$.
You touch upon the important point: A battery degrades with time far more so than an engine does. If you maintain both you'll have less range with the battery and likely no significant variance at all with the gas engine. That's how I interpreted the information.
What would the trade-in value of your old battery be? The 131 KWh battery from your Lightning would still be quite valuable even if it was degraded by 50%. It could be used as a stationary battery in conjunction with rooftop solar. Stationary batteries currently cost at least $5K for a 15 kWh battery. Your 50% "degraded" battery would still hold more than 4 times that much.
@@billwaterhouse5894 There is value to the recycler, but Recycling is not economical. I can see a point where recycling an EV battery will end up like California's CRV bottle program, which is the state recycling program for plastic bottles. In the state, they add a 5-10 cent CRV to each bottle, to encourage people to recycle. But that 5-10 cent CRV is not only more than the value of the plastic in the bottle, it's more than the cost of making a bottle. And even then, the CRV program doesn't have a 100% recycle rate, because it's just not worth it.
Each year, Redwood Materials recycles more than 6 GWh of lithium-ion batteries, the equivalent of 60,000 EV batteries and they are JUST getting started.
Now, this is information we need to know. Next topic, would be great to know what re-sale/trade-in values will be on used EV's. Would we lose a great amount of value$$ on a EV?
And think about it... It's not even just an issue of percentage. If an $80,000 Lightning even loses 50% of value, that's $40,000, or 100% the value of a new gas truck. So, unless an EV can retain 100% of its value, you'll be always be at a loss, in terms of resale value. But I highly doubt EV will even have the same percentage losses as regular gas trucks. I mean, who is going to spend any significant amount of money on a 10 year old degraded EV? Any repairs they might likely need will total out the vehicle.
@@phileasler5401 Which ICE? Have you seen the resale value of used trucks lately? There are 10 year old gas and diesel trucks selling for a profit, more than they were new 10 years ago. Can show me a 10 year old EV selling for a profit? Besides, this is certainly no macroeconomic measure. We're currently experiencing economic disruption, with supply chains issues, inflation and an out of control energy sector, so there's no point in drawing comparisons until the dust settles.
@@phileasler5401 That's anecdotal. There are many ICE vehicles selling for similar or greater profit, because of supply chain problems. But historically, EVs have had much worse resale value, particularly out of warranty. Honestly, unless they bought it cheap, anyone who buys an old EV out of warranty is being foolish.
Good informative video. The more info we “people on the fence” hear, the better! You explain in simple terms. I think the local Work truck Contractor , will be the hardest industry hit, they mostly have a 12-16ft. trailer to tow! Stop & go traffic, 80-90 mile range ? That would be tough , till Technology kicks in ! Thanks !
EVs do a lot better in stop and go traffic than gasoline engines because the EV is only using the power needed for the lights, HVAC and radio when stopped. Gasoline engines are still burning fuel and if the vehicle is not moving, then almost all of energy goes into heat. The city MPGe is higher than the highway MPGe for EVs.
Thats possibly true, but then again there is a market for retrofitting modern batteries to fit in radios and other electrics that require obsolete/extinct batteries. Its all according to what the market finds worth replicating. A 1938 Zenith radio may draw more interest that a 2008 HP laptop.
@@robrobinson8597 Those retro fits are not good ideas. The cells from old batteries are still degraded. So they take a bunch of cells that already are down to 85% life and put them in a rebuild and the rebuild won't last long. The problem is ALL the cells in the battery degrade at the same rate, that's what the charge controller does, it distributes the draw evenly from each cell. Any rebuild won't have new cells. It will be composed of cells that are near their end life.
@@cb-gz1vl The retrofits Im talking about actually use modern new batteries that they balance and package to fit the space, amperage, and voltage needs of vintage equipment.
You can rebuild the engine with couple of thousands but you can't repair the battery. In the meantime I look at the battery as the fuel thank not as an engine. Usually, electric motors have less longevity than gas engine when harsh conditions are inplace. You can maintain the gas engine but not the electric motor. In my opinion, we're way far from practical electric truck. I look at them as a rich kid toys not as a truck.
We are entering the era of the ‘disposable vehicle’. Once the battery goes out the vehicle is essentially totaled. Rechargeable batteries work best when fully discharging and fully charging. Otherwise they don’t want to fully charge. A hybrid vehicle is probably the best of both worlds at this time.
All good points! I think many forget how battery prices COULD go down and capacity SHOULD go up. No guarantees on either, but no guarantee gas prices may not spike or plummet either. 8:00 is an important point IMO: less mech issues is a valid argument. On the flip side, MANY issues I see online are electrical-related (wires, connectors, etc).
I'm a busy person and businessman, TIME IS MONEY , I need a real truck, we call them work trucks I've have better things to do, .. than to sit at a charging station picking my nose while waiting and waiting for a vehicle to charge ... that's a good name for these stations ..... NOSE PICKING STATIONS
The battery in my cell phone lasts 4 or 5 years tops. It is the exact same technololy as these car/truck batteries only it is typically in much less harsh conditions. My truck is 17 years old and still runs great. Sure gas costs a lot, but electricity isn't free either. Much more expensive and greatly reduced functionality. Without some major revolution in battery tech/cost, its not even close to what I'd consider to be a reasonable choice.
FWIW, the battery replacement issue is real but it's just one of the factors you put in the back of your mind. No point in worrying about something 5 or 10 years down the line. A higher priority to be tackled is the fact that EV TRUCKS aren't at parity yet with ICE. The cost is significantly more and the versatility is significantly less. That's what needs to be addressed first IMHO.
The real question is , will Ford keep batteries for these vehicles past the warranty period? I have heard that batteries for earlier models hybrids, can’t get batteries for them from Ford. I don’t see the price going down because the technology is going away from lithium in the future because of cost. It will always be $35000 or more for a battery from ford . The reason I says this is because they will not be any in stock. Order only .
I do not care what the warranty says. if your vehicle has any amount of mileage while under warranty, the dealer will (not) replace the whole battery with a new one. they the dealer will replace the bad cells only, just as with other warranties . replace the bad part period. it does not say we will replace the battery with a whole (new) battery. that is a fact.
Those battery cost are ridiculous, my 16 year old gmc duramax runs like a raped ape and tow with it on a weekly basis and has racked up over 500k miles on the original motor and transmission. If I need to replace the motor it's around 11k and the transmission is around 5k so you do the math
Great video. Another factor in the high battery cost is that new vehicle parts pricing is always higher. An example is a friends brand new 03 Focus wagon, rear window was broken by a vandal. New cost $2800.
"Warranted for 8 years so if it goes at 7, you're OK" Until you read the fine print and discover the "warranty" at the 7 year point is likely pro rated and you'll actually get a discount but it won't be free.
In 1981, I purchased my 1965 Ford f100 1/2 ton pickup for $1500 dollars. It was some what very well used. It had a 352 V8 engine, and it was the original from the factory. I am the second owner, for I had purchased from the man that had purchased it in 1965 from the dealership. Since I purchased this truck, I drove it about once a week. The engine finally gave up and I need to rebuild the engine. The failure was the main cam bearing gave out and wouldn't maintain oil pressure. The crankshaft, main bearing and rod bearing are mic to factory specs.
Mr Tim, second in command next to Jill. Somehow the second half of the equation is missing. Mainly recycling and recovery costs. When I purchase a 1930's technology Lead Acid Battery for my 2015 Kia, I still have a 10 or 20-dollar core replacement fee. On a $150 replacement battery that is13% of the battery cost. If I exchange my dead core for a new battery, no real impact on my back pocket. It costs me 10% to 15% of the battery price to exchange for a new battery (and we know that the core recycling fees are already baked into the retail price of the battery.) Last time I checked - Lead was not a precious metal,( just a poisonous one) Lithium is a precious metal. We have to assume that the cost of recycling and recovery of the metals are already figured into the invoice price of the battery. You can not tell me that the Lithium in my 10yr old battery is worth 0 dollars. First adopters are paying an invisible tax on these batteries. Today (October 22, 2022) the price of Lithium is over $74,860 per metric ton. Lead is $1911.5 per metric ton. Someone is making a huge profit (or will make a huge profit) when these batteries need to be replaced in 10 years. The average EV battery today contains 8Kilo Grams of Lithium. That is nearly $6000 of Lithium in the battery you are giving to the dealer when they replace the battery. That almost pays for 16 Mcdonald's Happy Meals. This market has to mature before us every day Tom, Dick, and Harrys can really afford and EV.
In Australia we get screwed over on all prices, this is a list of the current EV prices in Australia as of October 2022 - BYD Atto 3: $44,381 MG ZS EV Excite: $44,990 BYD Atto 3 Extended Range: $47,381 Hyundai Ioniq Electric: $48,970 Nissan Leaf: $48,990 MG ZS EV Essence: $49,990 Hyundai Kona Electric Elite: $54,500 MINI Electric: $55,650 Hyundai Kona Electric Highlander: $58,000 Nissan Leaf e+: $60,490 Hyundai Kona Electric Extended Range Elite: $60,500 MINI Electric Yours: $62,825 Polestar 2: $63,900 Tesla Model 3 Standard Range Plus: $63,900 Hyundai Kona Electric Extended Range Highlander: $64,000 Kia Niro S Electric: $65,300 Mazda MX-30: $65,490 Kia EV6: $67,990 Polestar 2 Long Range Single Motor: $68,400.00 Kia Niro Sport: $70,990 Hyundai Ioniq 5 2WD: $71,900 Kia Niro Electric GT Line: $72,100 Tesla Model Y RWD: $72,300 Polestar 2 Long Range Dual Motor: $73,400 Lexus UX300e Luxury: $74,000 Hyundai Ioniq 5 AWD: $75,900 Tesla Model 3 Long Range: $76,200 Mercedes-Benz EQA: $76,800 Volvo XC40 Recharge: $76,990 Lexus UX300e Sports Luxury: $81,000 Tesla Model 3 Performance: $88,900 Tesla Model Y AWD: $96,700 BMW i4: $99,900 BMW iX3: $114,900 Mercedes-Benz EQC: $124,300 BMW i4 M50: $124,900 BMW iX xDrive40: $135,900 Audi e-tron SUV: $137,100 BMW iX xDrive40 Sport - $141,900 Tesla Model S: $147,990 Audi e-tron Sportsback: $148,700 Audi E-Tron Sportback: $150,900 Jaguar I-Pace SE: $151,432 Jaguar I-Pace HSE: $155,550 Tesla Model X: $165,990 Audi E-Tron S: $168,400 BMW iX xDrive50 Sport - $169,900 Porsche Taycan: $174,695 Tesla Model X Plaid: $174,990 Porsche Taycan 4 Cross Turismo: $176,600 BMW iX: $179,333 Audi E-Tron GT: $181,700 Tesla Model S Plaid: $186,990 Porsche Taycan 4S: $194,700 Porsche Taycan 4S Cross Turismo: $205,300 Porsche Taycan Turbo: $276,300 Porsche Taycan Turbo Cross Turismo: $279,000 Porsche Taycan Turbo S: $345,800
I drive less than 12,000 miles a year so my lightning battery & motors will be under warranty for 8 years. Since I'll always be charging at home and will be keeping in a 20%-80% SOC, I expect my battery to last well past the warranty period.
Exactly, my Mach E is 2 years old and I don't drive it like I stole it, and I don't fast charge but once or twice a year on bigger trips. 33k miles later and I've lost only 2 miles from my original range. I have to wait and see how my Lightning performs, I've got 6,800 miles on it since I purchased it. I drive it the same way as my Mach E, so I think I will see the same results.
Question: Can you buy a standard range lightning then in the future when the batteries die replace it with the long range battery? I'm guessing there is some tuning in the computer involved, but is it possible and/or easy? Or are heavy modifications needed?
Tim your most likely wrong on the price of the battery. The price of the material for lithium has gone up as demand is getting higher. Now that we're going to be going from cell phone hand held too tools add vehicles it's going to go up that much more expensive.
Tim I have a question for you. The one thing that one has mentioned is does the battery emit an electrical charge that can cause cancer? Because of the length of time that you are driving your vehicle? If this is the case is there a faraday cage surrounding the battery so it doesn’t emit an electrical current like they say in cell phones can cause cancer because it emits a electrical current? Just as if you live near a big power line. What are your thought on this subject?
This. When I was in Chicago, I remember channel 9 doing a study on electromagnetic, radiation and cancer; particularly electric blankets. I bought the first US model year Prius, the 2001. After I bought that I’ve got esophagus cancer and the doctors gave me a 20% chance to survive 5 years. 14 years ago tomorrow as a matter of fact. I often wonder the same thing you are wondering. Because I had been driving in an electrical field just before getting cancer.
Interesting question. As far as I understand it, cell phones and these batteries do not emit ionizing radiation and can’t damage your cells leading to cancer. There are conspiracy theories out there about G5 and the like but no evidence for it. I would be interested to see a study that suggests otherwise.
Tim love the video and information on trucks and SUV. I have a question about batteries cost. So if I was to by the truck for $95k and still in warranty then all good. But what happens out of warranty. What is the truck worth 8 yrs from now? Is the cost to replace battery more then the truck worth? Will replacing the battery make it worth more? I know it's early for this. But I have seen videos "Tesla battery's" cost more then what the vehicle cost. My wife loves watching you and been thinking about a lightning. But I told her to hold off because we do tow a camper a long ways. Which F150 lighting does not make sense for us. Thanks again and keep it up.
I love how everyone thinks batteries will get cheaper in the future. Battery capacity on average has grown by about 5 percent per year over the last decade so a battery with a 200 mile range in 2010 now gets 300 miles but the rub is that car batteries have actually gotten more EXPENSIVE over the last 10 years because the components to make them are RARE so with even more vehicles projected to be electric over the next 10 years we should expect batteries to get MORE expensive not less expensive. The fundamental error that many people make in doing these kind of analysis is that batteries ARE NOT energy sources. A battery is simply the electrical version of a gas tank. That's it! So all they are doing is trying to build bigger and bigger gas tanks that can store more and more energy so that will cost more and more money. What we really need is a new source of alternative energy in transportation that is inexpensive, not more expensive storage tanks.
I was definitely considering the lightning pro (as a 2nd vehicle), until the price increases. BEV would work well for me a lot of the time and not at all too much of the time. My concerns with battery replacement in several years, even under warranty, is going to be availability. On the other hand, with all of the data collected on theses trucks, could ford come back & say “you fast charged your truck too often” or “ used the wrong charger” to avoid coving the cost of battery replacement?
@@ShadowOppsRC Not really sure what your point is. Are you saying we should be OK with it if Ford decides to do these kind of things because Tesla already does? How about it's not OK for EITHER of them to screw over the consumer?
Dude! Sorry for all the flak you've been getting. I missed out on these vids because of not having internet due to Hurricane Ian. Glad I got it back to see this. Your argument for future battery cost makes sense and it will be interesting to see what the price will be ten years from now given inflation and everything. Definitely not a fan of E-trucks but I need to know about them to helps others who are make the best choice from reliable and accurate information. Keep it up and I'll see you down the road.
Good video. You should not assume that the battery price will go down in time. Everyone the world over is scrambling to get their hands on these rare metals. Demand keeps going up.
I drive a Prius and I am putting over 60 000 miles per year. Right now I have 345 000 miles. On 215 000 miles I had to refurbish the battery and mechanic charged me 600$ that is way more reasonable than 35000$
Can’t see any advantage whatsoever for an electric truck. If you tow and haul things like a truck was made for then it’s fairly useless. If you want to drive around and look cool then the ev truck is for you!
This is a great thought provoking video. As a EV driver and someone about to get a lighting these are my thoughts. This truck is not great for long range towing, it can do it, but now we’ll. But, according to epa.go this will save you $3000 a year in fuel cost alone. Reduced maintenance for brakes, no exhaust, no oil changes. That puts is at even to better over ten years even if you gave to replace the battery. What I will say is automotive grade batteries don’t go to the recycling plant when they are done. They still have a long life in other applications so the old battery is not worth zero by a long shot. Is this the car for all truck people, heck no. But being scared of this cost is just fear mongering. Great video, no reason to attack anyone over this, just needs a little perspective
Spin this however you want but a new ice engine does not loose 2 or 3% of range each year. Does it start to need parts or wear over time? Yes, ofcourse. But it certainly does not loose fuel mileage or range like you are claiming.
Uhhh, the Prius isn't an EV, It is what we actually should heading toward. When the battery isn't relied upon for 100% of the power it can last a long time.
OK the battery will cost you 30,000 at some point (will kill your resale), EV will eat tires at double the rate with all that tourqe (you won't be able to resist the feel of the acceleration), When you burt out the motor and speed controllers that will cost as much as the batterys, and all those fancy electronic options will fail eventually. What will the range be -10 deg in the winter or 110 deg in the summer and how much will extreme temps reduce battery life. How do you get a charge if you are on at holiday trip when all the charge stations are full up or not working and you are down to 10%. I think in 10 years these F150 lightnings will be money pits and cheap to buy because of all the extra costs as they age.
Kind of liking the new Ford Super Duty diesel with 500HP @12,000 FP torque even more. My current F350 gets 600+ miles range and has 220,000 miles on her, half of what I plan on putting on.. Still rips a 17,000 trailer over 12000ft mountain pass in 6th gear. You are correct, my first 3 cell phones and laptops wouldn't hold a charge over 8 hours, todays devices are 3 times better. I don't think they are controversial, I think they are being rejected because the corrupt government is using our tax dollars to shove them down our throats... Thanks for the great video, especially the $39,000 battery :( . I was poking around looking at loss of range in below freezing temps and it seems Tesla will degrade 9% overnight sitting in the cold. For $39,000 I'm moving my furniture and family out in the garage and parking it in the living room.
I think you misunderstood, the loss of range comes back when outside temperatures warm up. The battery isn't affected long term. No need to be protective of it. My EV never sees the inside of a garage and it's fine. Gas vehicles take about a 10% hit in fuel economy in the winter, it's basically a push.
I’m glad you were transparent on this issue. I have an 8 year 120k warranty on my battery that’s rated for 500k miles. I’m not one bit worried about it. Also if you drive another Ford truck, other than a Lightning, you’ll end up spending approximately $30k in fuel over the course of 100k miles. Driving a Lightning, you’ll spend about $4-5k in charging, driving the 100k miles. That’s not even including the maintenance the ICE Ford requires every 5k miles. The EV Lightning requires no maintenance aside from tires and windshield wiper fluid. EVs will always cost less than ICE in comparable categories.
You understand there is a difference between buying a tank of gas for $70 and financing $30,000 at 10% for 8 years. 🤣 after you have already financed the truck for 8 years.
Soooo....a $29,000 battery that gets you an "advertised"...cough, cough.....300 mile range BRAND NEW will degradate over time? Too what? This is laughable....hopefully battery technology advances sooner rather then later.
Keep up the great work and honest comments (doesn’t matter if I do or do not like EVs, they are coming). The ability to replace the battery in modules is what makes Ultium so unique and the perfect model that hopefully others will follow. Even in a “no money to fix scenario”, the dead section can be turned off so while you have reduced distance, the vehicle is still useable for reasonable distances.
Like I said in another comment, the modules will ultimately be more expensive, because of the scale in production and labor to replace each individual module. The first or second module might be cheaper than an entire pack, but eventually it becomes good money after bad. It's like repairing a cellphone part by part, vs just totaling out the phone and replacing it entirely with on off the shelf, or replacing 10 tiny lightbulbs vs 1 big one.
My 2012 Nissan Leaf used to cost $5000 to replace the battery. In 2019, Nissan raised it up 50% to $7500. In theory, battery should get cheaper over time. In practice, at least with the Nissan Leaf, it's the complete opposite.
Bolt battery is $9k new for 280-300 mi range. Based on my uses (I take care of the battery) I expect to get 500k+ miles on my existing battery. Paid $16k for a Bolt Premier with 35k miles.
@@philiphjelsand5167 Going on my own degradation tests to figure how long to 80% deg. I don't abuse my battery and it shows in the tests. Also cab companies using Bolts and Teslas are pushing 500k+ miles.
My biggest problem with EVs is they are marketed as replacements for ICE vehicles which they are most definitely not. At best, they are an alternative and a very expensive one at that. All EVs will eventually need to have their battery packs replaced. That's just how batteries work\fail over time like the traditional lead\acid batteries in ICE vehicles. Anyone that has had a laptop for over three years can attest to. The second or third owner will probably be faced with replacing the battery pack(s) as the average EV buyer doesn't keep their EV long term. Another question is will the battery pack still be available in years later? There are already some battery packs that are no longer available for vehicles still on the road. The Lightening is just a vehicle for the wealthy hipster urban cowboy wannabes. No one that uses a truck for truck things will buy it. I think the Lightening's battery pack will become as infamous as the 5.4L 3V grenades. Lastly, EVs don't begin to break even total cost wise until about 7 years into ownership.
I do electrical work and pack a lot if tools. I’ve been waiting for the Lightning, or any EV truck, to become available so that I can carry my tools around more effectively. So what you’re saying about urban hipsters simply isn’t true.
@@icevariable9600 How is it more effective to haul tools in a coal powered truck? The vehicle costs more, it's more expensive to charge it than put gas in it and you've got less range. That doesn't really make sense.
@@whatsthebigfndeal 1) I drive a Honda. So yes, driving a truck will be more effective than packing all my tools in the trunk of a Honda. 2) What the hell is a "coal powered truck"? 3) I was responding to OP's comment that "The Lightening is just a vehicle for the wealthy hipster urban cowboy wannabes". I'm no urban hipster cowboy wannabe. I work in construction, have a fuck ton of tools and prefer an electric vehicle if I can get one. Yes, it costs more. So what. But you're incorrect, it's not more expensive to charge. True, the range is less, but none of my fuel charge will be going into Exxon or Shell's pockets when they're price gauging us during an inflationary period. Makes perfect sense.
@@icevariable9600 Well, of course it'll be better than a damn car, that's not what we're talking about. Why not just get a normal truck, though? ICE's are more environmentally friendly, cheaper to buy and cheaper to operate. The EV thing is a scam. Coal doesn't burn cleaner than gasoline, nor is it more cost effective. Not to mention, the vehicles are basically disposable after a few years because nobody is gonna drop 20-30k on a new battery system.
Ist of all I don't know for sure, maybe you do, but I don't think changing the battery is going to be just unplug it, pull it out, slide in the new one and plug it in. I believe there's cooling lines etc.
🇺🇸 the new battery won't retro fit! Ford wants you to buy a new truck. Not a new battery. Samsung Apple don't want you to buy a new battery for a phone 3yrs old. They want you to buy a new phone!
@@tewksburydriver8624 🇺🇸 but, seriously... Ford wants you to spend $100k for latest greatest updates rather than replacing battery. Just like Samsung and Apple!
That is an insane amount of money for a battery. The idea that someone will hold on to one of these trucks for 15 years and then decide to put a 35k battery in it is a pipe dream. The battery is not the only thing that is going to wear out. Steering, suspension, the actual drive train, plastics, the body, frame, paint, interior, the HVAC system (both for the battery and occupants) are going to be worn out. No one is going to put 35 grand into an asset that has depreciated from almost 100 grand down to a tiny percentage of it's original value. If one of these things needs a battery outside of warranty for whatever reason, old age and degradation, a car accident, or a failure of some type it is going to the scrap yard or to auction. The price of the battery is only going to increase over time due to inflation and the rarity of the minerals that makes these products. The average person in the united states doesn't even have a couple thousand dollars in their savings. What are they going to do? Go to a bank and ask for a loan to put a 35k (likely to be more expensive in the future) battery into a 15 year old truck? They will laugh you out of the office. At least with a 15 year old gasoline truck you can go to a scrapyard and throw an engine in for a couple grand, even less if you can do it yourself. An EV truck is a toy for the rich.
Thanks for putting this information up. I know calculating battery degradation is a difficult thing, but do you think the mileage is a bigger factor or years of ownership? You said your friend's battery went down 11% over 100,000 miles, but over how long a time was it (maybe I missed that part)? but then you said the battery typically loses 2%-3% per year. When I worked that out over 10 years, the degradation was 18% - 26%. I've heard that a battery needs to be replaced when it has about 70% of it's life left, so I'm trying to calculate how long a time that would be and wonder if I should calc miles? or years?
@@Pickuptrucktalk sure, I get that mileage and time are both a factor, but the window is so big depending on how you calculate it. If I got by 2%-3% per year, I need to replace it in 12-18 years. If I go by 11% over 100,000K, I won't need to replace it until around 300K miles which would take me nearly 30 to 35 year to drive that much. So 12 years to 35 years before replacement.... that's a big window.
@@brianbecker1180 2-3% should drop you under 70% over 10 years. And yeah, most times people replace at 70%. I’d say 10 years is more likely versus 35 years.
@@Pickuptrucktalk yes but battery degradation isn't linear as it degrades it will start to degrade faster and when you talk about you may be able to get an upgraded battery as technology evolves but that isn't how this hardware works all the subsystems are specific to the battery chemistry even if there is a break through in the next 10 years updating a current EV will be like what people do with old vehicles now it will be a complete overhaul to make it compatable a simple way to look at it get an old rc that used nicad or nimh then put a lipo battery in it, it will start out great but will die pretty quickly because it was never designed to handle the power available
with these batteries think of the life of an ICE cars transmission. if you beat on it, neutral drop it, rock it, floor it all the time, lots of high heat usage, heavy towing and no external cooler, etc. never change the fluid it may fall apart at 80k miles, but if you drive it like a normal human, and mainatin it properly, it will last 150k miles and still be usable. the internals will have some where, diminished performance, but the car is still drivable and reliable. now think of batteries the same way. if you dont push the car to its limits all the time, fast charging, let the batteries go to near zero all the time, maintain it properly, not making them run at high temps so much etc etc etc, 11% at 100k miles is not bad in the long term...think of the tester guy down to 270 miles of range after 100k miles....270is still on par with most EVs sold today new! now that dude beat the snot out of his car and it only had that low of loss. if he treated it properly, i would bet his range would be 280-285. when you think about it, i dont see the degration being a big issue. however, some cars will have better cooling ssytems in them as well....different tech, etc. but if you assume 8 years and 100k of usage and going from 300 miles range to 270, you have tons of life left you may just have to charge 1 day sooner than you used to.
I had Americas first big battery pack in my first year 2001 Prius. It needed to be replaced at 110,000 miles. Originally cost was like $6000. But by the time it was replaced it was $2,000. And Toyota USA picked up the entire cost. Batteries will get cheaper. There will be places that can repair more cheaply. Lease anything you can’t afford to own. Or buy cheaper things. I just recently bought 2001 Highlander for $6k /100k miles.
Toyota said the battery life is about 150k. Considering their gas engines easily go 400k without serious repair what would justify the additional cost of a battery? Just recently our 2010 Prius blew its head gasket. A known issue per toyota for the model years 2010 to 2012. Our battery went around the same time as yours and it was 3k for a replacement. If toyota didn’t cover that we would be in the hole around 7 to 9k with this head gasket issue and battery. Mind you this car only has 150k on it. With “newer” used engines have 130k plus. How can the consumer justify 2 large expenses compared to just having 1? In my opinion it’s not even worth hybrids with the added costs of repair and upkeep.
@@TonkaFire2019 where did Toyota say that? I found this quote from an article suggesting much longer. “Toyota has guaranteed that the 71.4kWh lithium-ion battery unit will retain at least 70% of its capacity for up to 10 years or one million kilometers (620,000 miles) driven (while most manufacturers offer 8 years and 100-150,000 miles).”
So both Purdue and Brandon received free battery replacements after the warranty had expired (thought earlier hybrid battery had 80k limit)? That's outstanding on Toyota's part. Were the failures degradation or complete inoperable drivable?
I'm not sure if you meant this to be a positive or negative point for battery technology, but I take it as a negative. You spent (or the manufacturer did) $2,000 in repairs on you car at 110,000 miles. Over the price of fueling a regular economy car, that more or less ate up all your fuel savings in 110,000 miles. So, you gained nothing by owning the hybrid. Also, keep in mind the Prius was more expensive than regular car to begin with. So, spent more to save nothing over the life of the battery.
@@spamfried894 if Toyota picked up the bill though, their savings are still in tact. Would be no different to a engine or transmission replacement in such a way.
You think the battery will be cheaper in 10 years, but it actually might not be available at all. They discontinue older ones as they move on to the next latest and greatest design. Then you're on your own. I can get a pullout drivetrain right now for my '03 Suburban for $1k, 5.3/4L60E. Or a 6.0/4L80E for $2k.
The Truck should have a small diesel engine with front wheel drive to get around with good mpg. Back it up with electric powered back wheels for when you need torque. Done.
Suddenly, a $5-8k engine or transmission replacement doesn't seem so outrageously expensive.
CapX vs OpX
The battery is more or less the fuel for the vehicle. The electricity is about 20% of a gallon of gas
@@phileasler5401 Just wait untill the Federal and state governments add use taxes to compensate for the lost revenue from falling gasoline sales. Will end up taking as much out of your pocket as an ICE vehicle.
@@phileasler5401 actually the battery is like your gas tank an electricity is the fuel it stores and thats the problem
@@phileasler5401 But you paid $25K-$30K more than an ICE truck. That's about 7 years of gas, even with todays jacked up prices.
Battery prices ARE not going to go down! That is a pipe dream!
Exactly. And the price of electricity, whether at home or at a charge station, will not either. There will tons of buyers remorse.
in 2010 the cost of Lithium ion batteries were $1,200 per kWh. In 2022 they are approaching $125 per kWh. Current supply chain, Covid and inflation have slowed down and even increased the short term price. Overall, the prices have dramatically declined over the past 12 years
@@caseyberry8190 They sales guys, and the politician's pushing this addenda have buried this issue deep!
@@tombudetti5502 Propane and Diesel were once far cheaper then Gas until these started to be used for car/trucks. Right now your paying a an infrastructure maintenance tax on fuels, wait until these taxes catch up to EV'S. I have been building battery packs for years, and my costs are rising yearly.
@@tombudetti5502 So, a Lightning battery would've cost $340,000 in 2010? Yeah, right.
Also, certain per unit productions cost fall with scale, but the cost of materials will not, as supply is limited. Materials like Lithium have increased in price by 1,000% from 2005 to 2018, or just before the pandemic, so you can't blame Covid for the upward trend.
Just sold our EV , it needed batteries and controller at a cost of $ 32,000 , their out of their minds. we sold it that a huge loss. We are done with all EV
Bwahhahaha
Tesla's have cars 10 years old now with only 20% battery loss.
Sure you owned AN EV
TROLL
@@robcrissinger776 no not a troll but I do love EV's and think there the future of this world 🌎!
@@david9192 Not you David.
Wendy...
What you forget or unaware of is when it's cold you lose battery power or amp hrs. When it's hot you lose amp hrs. And it effects the life of the battery.
Exactly!
It’s overstated. The draw from climate control is a lot less than driving.
An EV buss operator in Alaska said his watts/mile was worse in the winter until he insulated his battery box.
When it’s cold it will power a heater and when warm it’s running a dedicated AC system.
“Too cold” for a lithium ion cell is something like -70
@@danh8302 The problem isn't the battery freezing up, its lost range, I live in Minnesota and a 10 degree could be considered a heat wave, and at 20 degrees you lose on average 30% of said range, ( depending on make and model) the worst I seen in studies was BMW which was reduction of 50% < but most that were tested were actually worse then 30% most were around 35% - 40%. in loss.
I believe batteries will get more expensive, because the materials to produce them are getting less less
Not only did dirty Joe leave 84 bill $ of military weapons in Afghan E Stan but they had trillions of lithium reserves..
Thanks Joe
_Your Chinese Masters
It's a well known fact that the materials (lithium and cobalt) are limited in scope and rapidly being depleted.
@@stevenbass732 Absolutely false, Li is abundant, plenty in Nevada alone to supply US needs indefinitely, it's all about the time it takes to permit (in the USA) and ramp mining and refining.
No. They will continue lower as they have for decades tho at reduced rate of change. Original Tesla roadster batts cost around $120k ea to make, much better batts today cost them about $10k and projected to head toward $5k. Beyond that newer gen LFP batts will last twice as long and even cheaper to make.
For every doubling in batt production cost drops by a constant rate, around 30%.
@@stevenbass732 massive untapped lithium deposits in California. Check into who owns that property...
So you save no money at all. My '21 Tundra will be so much cheaper than any electric truck over time. The cost outweighs the performance of electric vehicles.
Or lack of performance when you want to do truck things like towing and hauling.
What are you talking over time? You’re already saving money because of the entry cost to get that vehicle. I have a 2021 tundra as well and whether we’re getting bad and PG is irrelevant because we didn’t spend an absolute fortune getting a vehicle in the first place, trying to maintain status your technology, and then trying to recoup money later that eventually you lose when you have to replace the battery for $20,000. Is someone that hates their money would buy an electric vehicle.
You are wrong
Cheaper over time? Would it surprise you that you will spend about $40,000 just for gas over 200,000 miles assuming an optimistic average gas price of $3.50/gal. So much more in CA. This doesn't count the many thousands spent on oil changes and other ICE only maintenance. Remember that the battery packs on most EVs will go 200K. Much further than most owners will ever keep their vehicles.
@@Josh-179 HAHAHAHAHAHA! I love the Church of Global Warming members like you.
My Tundra cost $48,100 out the door. A truck by the way. Not a car but a truck. A Tesla Model Y (the same size as a Corolla), is $70,000 out the door. That's a price difference of $21,900. To just break even on the entry cost on a Model Y vs. a Toyota Fucking Tundra is 100,000 miles of driving.
Now, you compared Commiefornia in gas prices lets talk about the charging in Commiefornia which because of horrifically high energy prices it is $48-$102 to charge one time according to CBS article from February 2022. I payed $83 to fill up my Tundra today and it took five minutes.
So, you are trying to tell me to drive your Corolla size car is cheaper when in actuality it is close to the same price...but you can't do jack fucking shit with that car compared to my truck.
Do NOT even get me started when comparing my Acura TLX that gets 36 mpg on the highway with a 3.5L V6. There is no comparison! So, take your Communist Democrat Church of Global Warming Bullshit, and your poorly built EV idles, and stick them up your stretched out hairy ass!
There is no reason to buy EV's. They don't save you ANY money. Maybe in 5 years... but there are way too many issues with EV ownership with zero gain. People trick themselves into thinking they save money because of Gas, but you spend WAY more on EV then all the money you save from gas in the cars lifetime.
In my specific case, I bought a brand new vehicle for $35000 (Toyota 4runner) Which I've now had for 6 years, without a single hiccup. I couldn't imagine in 10 years having to essentially repurchase that vehicle just to keep it on the road....no chance
Guarantee they’ll force you to buy a new car because they’ll choose not to let you upgrade a battery. That’s what makes more sense for a company.
@@TonkaFire2019 there is always after market.
Had my corolla for 12. I drive my vehicles till the wheels fall off. I don’t want to be stuck in car payments. Forever like some people
@@jeffforbes70 Maybe. You're assuming that the aftermarket part of the market will become comparable to ICE market. It might not. Lithium is a FAR more limited resource.
@@asajayunknown6290 lithium is trading at 74000 per ton as of 8/2022 up from 8 000 per ton 2019.the one thing about greed it spurs innovation the will find a replacement for lithium or ev s growth will stall
I am definitely not a EV person but I still watch your videos and I enjoy them because nobody explained things better than you
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We had a 2012 Lincoln MKZ Hybrid. When we traded it had 170k miles. We bought at 40k miles. It went from 44 mpg to 32 mpg during that time. Had minimal issues with the car, I believe Hybrid is still the better option until the EV gets better range. We traded the Lincoln for a Toyota Highlander Hybrid
Very smart choice I have Lexus and I love them basically Toyota
If your mileage dropped 25%, something was really wrong (on the hybrid EV side). I purchased my 2011 F-150 in 2015 with 140k miles, it's now over 250k, mileage and power hasn't changed significantly (less than 10% for sure) which has no hybrid component.
Hybrid is the best of both worlds.
Well said! I still have to wonder if one lives in say a non arid area of North America, just how much range will there be in the cooler/ winter months of the year??? Notice like all the test driving seems to be done in places like Arizona?
I’ve had a 2022 Lightning XLT for 3 weeks now, and I am loving it! It’s my 2nd EV in 7 years.
Way to stay optimistic Tim! Flying cars or vehicles with 2000 miles or range in ten years 😄. People back from the space race days are still waiting for that.
Flying cars do exist but regulations and factories to build them in is a big hurdle that has to be overcome. Six hundred mile EV's exist in China and will be her this winter. 1000 mile plus ones will be here in 5 years and yes that means 500 mile towing for the truck versions. 2040-2050: 9000 mile EV's; even if it takes 24 hours for a full charge (it won't) why would anyone care with enough range to cross the country, coast to coast, 3 times?
If a battery loses 2-3% per year and they lose significant range in the cold. Could you imagine driving a 10 year old truck in the cold. What a disaster that sounds like. I’ll stick to gas vehicles.
Real men ... need real work trucks .. not grocery getters .. forget batteries !!
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I've owned my 2005 Ford f350 for 17 years and two hundred six thousand miles as a construction work truck and other than regular wear items like brakes and batteries it hasn't cost me more than 3000 dollars in repairs and I'm still willing to drive it anywhere without fear of breaking down
Very interesting perspective. I have been an automotive technician and shop owner for over 40 years and I think it is way too early to get into the electric game. Having worked on forwards a lot in my career I bet that battery will be discontinued in 8 years. As far as recycling I don't think they have a good method for that yet and/or cost effective. I think it could and should happen I just don't think we're there right now and with the economy and the world intermoil this is not the right time.
notice how hard it is to get OEM parts after 10 years for some ICE cars. as you said, obsolete. but the aftermarket im sure will prevail as they have been already doing some great work with reusing EV stuff.
Maybe Batteries and Bulbs will have them?
I happen to work in the recycling business and you are correct. It is extremely difficult to recycle these batteries. They are nothing like the good old led acid batteries. To my knowledge there is only one company doing that type of salvaging. Further more it takes five tons of mining just to acquire the materials needed for a single battery. And if you live in the south east our power is coal and nuclear so your actually doing more harm to the environment than driving a gas burner.
what most people don't see is the boom in the secondary market for used batteries.... and it's not for automotive use. They are going into alternative power uses where weight and size are not the same issue as with cars. Basically using them till they have maybe 30% capacity left, so another 10 years.
I'm done with electric cars, I went back to gasoline because of all hassle associated with electric cars and trucks ! No more for me , I've learned my lesson and my " ELECTRIC CAR ANXIETY SYNDROME IS GONE " ... Happy days are here again !!
You are doing a very good job addressing the questions that many have about EV’s, Tim. At lot more has to change before I buy one.
Your government will change your mind for you. Especially in blue states like California.
all batteries wear out the more times they are charged. look at cell phones.. ( Huge Dollars).good luck EV owners
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I feel sorry for electric car drivers and future owners. They will simply have to learn the hard way .. as I did. These things are a huge hassle, all those lost hours sitting in those charging stations, huge anxiety, plus a outrageous expense in the long run. Good luck trying to sell a used Electric car with wore out battery modules. You'll find out nobody wants to pay the ridiculous price of batteries ... Batteries are very ... very expensive to replace ( thousands and thousands of dollars) ... and make no mistake, you will be replacing them. These batteries are highly toxic to our environment, with a high potential for disaster to our surroundings. DON'T FOOL YOURSELF and CERTAINLY, DON'T LISTEN TO A SALESMAN, ... THEY WILL SAY ANYTHING, DO ANYTHING TO MAKE A SALE ! THESE NEW SPECIALIZED AUTOMOTIVE GRADE BATTERIES ... ARE NOT GREEN CLEAN ENERGY BY ANY MEANS! ...
I wish I knew all this before I bought my car . Do your homework before buying !
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I lose about a minute a day plugging in my car, in my garage. The next morning its charged to 80%
(right where I set it to be charged) at a cost of 80% less (in the warmer months) and at a cost of 65%
(in the colder months) of what gasoline would cost me. No oil changes, no transmission fluid to replace, no engine coolant to replace, no exhaust system to replace, brakes that should last the life of the car due to regenerative braking.
I do get too pay the state an extra $100 per year to make up for the lost gas tax revenue. Yes your big mistake was listening to the salesman, maybe some day you'll learn to know more about a vehicle you're about to purchase than anyone at the dealership, before you step on their lot.
@@dalelong4716 ok Hit 👉 up 👆👆
Doesn’t surprise me they are all gunna be expensive to replace I’ll stick with ice😂
Ice = $⛽️
@@phileasler5401 EV = Bigger $$ for battery replacement. And worth less at trade in, due to dealers saying the battery needs replaced and can't give you anything for it.
Excellent analysis, EV’s are both here to stay and not for everyone. I bought my Dodge 1500 new in ‘02 and with minor maintenance over the years it still runs well.
Ev's have been around since the late 1800s.
Hell i can top that. I got a 1993 ford ranger ive put 360.000 miles on that still puring. I've done bought a back up engine for when the time comes. I haven't had a truck payment in 27 years😂
@@raytycker1656 But it took modern technology to raise them to where they are now. If they had been viable Edison and Westinghouse would have been all over them.
Well, got you beat. Still driving my 1965 Plymouth Valiant, as new. Just put in new suspension parts, That's all, but no need to buy another vehicle for 50 years.
@@Jobratedman Slant 6?
The thing about the warranty for 8 years is if the battery craps out within the warranty period doesn't mean they will give you a "brand spanking new" battery for replacement. The can install a rebuilt or reconditioned or remanufactured battery. Choose your own term. Same with transmissions, brake calipers, etc. All car companies do this for their warranty work. They don't necessarily install "new" parts for warranty repairs, just factory certified or authorized replacements.
Ev manufacturers and dealers are saying ev batteries are safe, kind of reminds me of tobacco producers saying the same thing about their products,.... we all know how that turned out !! Manufacturers will say anything to make a sale... Get out of the EV market while you can, it's not safe !
Not going to change my thinking, Not getting an EV.
I enjoy watching your informational videos about vehicles. I don’t own an EV and at this time and don’t think I can afford one because the models I want are over 100K, but I appreciate the time you put into your videos.
New engine cost is around $10000 could get 3 engines for 1 battery
Maybe 4 depending if they’re rebuilt or you pull it from the junk yard.
You’re ignoring operational expenses
@@cybertrk You're ignoring EV operational costs.
Also, an engine will likely far outlive a battery. And when the engine does fail, it can be rebuilt indefinitely. My father had a 44 year old truck with its original rebuilt engine in it, still running when he sold it, which he rebuilt only once in 380,000 miles miles. What's more, you could rebuild that truck's powertrain half a dozen times for less than the cost of one battery.
@@cybertrk I mean tires on electric vehicles last 15000- 20000 miles, tires aren’t cheap. That equals out normal oil changes.
Yeah but you can buy a new 5.0L V8 coyote engine for an f150 for a faction of the price of the ev truck battery. Heck you could buy the engine, trans, entire engine bay, new axles, etc for less than a battery.
I think that was a very fair EV analysis, I appreciate you really going through the pros & cons! This only reinforces my personal position (for me only) that I will not even consider an EV truck for the time being, probably at least for the next 10 years or so (range would have to more or less double, charging would have to be MUCH faster, charging stations would have to be MUCH more prevalent AND the prices would have to come down). At the same time, I would consider an EV car right now if our commuter/runabout car needed to be replaced...I think we will just run that into the ground, then by that time, EV's should be much more competitive with ICE's and we will likely buy one then.
Next gen trucks like Sliverado EV run a 800volt system vs a 400 volt in lighthing - so twice as fast charging. Could easily roadtrip just with normal food/pee breaks. That being said - towing more then 100 miles isnt a thing yet. Towing just eats range so fast
@@1personalt Good points Rich, charging twice as fast would be helpful. We will be towing around 12k lbs, and we would like the option to travel 600 miles or more in a day (could maybe live with 400 miles in a day), so I think the EV truck is quite a ways off for us. An EV car/small SUV however, could come much quicker for us.
🇺🇸 the new battery won't retro fit! Ford wants you to buy a new truck. Not a new battery. Samsung Apple don't want you to buy a new battery for a phone 3yrs old. They want you to buy a new phone!
@@1personalt The battery is set up for 800 V in charging, but I am not sure they are set up for 800 V for the inverters.
@@mikenb11_51 the Japanese have a 11k ev they dropped the purchase price by 50 percent by renting the batteries for 12 dollars per month you get 1500 miles takes 2 minutes for the machine to install fully charged battery
I have a 1967 Chevy and it runs about as well as it did 55 years ago and probably will for another 50 years. If it had been an EV I would have had to spend a TON of money to get it out of the garage by now. New batteries every 5-10 year$.
That is what the battery costs today. Check that price in 2 years and see how much more it will cost. We have record high inflation.
Between the FED and hopefully a change in Congress we will see prices coming down. The cause of higher prices is wreckless spending.
You touch upon the important point: A battery degrades with time far more so than an engine does. If you maintain both you'll have less range with the battery and likely no significant variance at all with the gas engine. That's how I interpreted the information.
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What would the trade-in value of your old battery be? The 131 KWh battery from your Lightning would still be quite valuable even if it was degraded by 50%. It could be used as a stationary battery in conjunction with rooftop solar. Stationary batteries currently cost at least $5K for a 15 kWh battery. Your 50% "degraded" battery would still hold more than 4 times that much.
And even after further degredation/depletion...there is value in the materials for recycle purposes I'm guessing 🤔
@@billwaterhouse5894 There is value to the recycler, but Recycling is not economical.
I can see a point where recycling an EV battery will end up like California's CRV bottle program, which is the state recycling program for plastic bottles. In the state, they add a 5-10 cent CRV to each bottle, to encourage people to recycle. But that 5-10 cent CRV is not only more than the value of the plastic in the bottle, it's more than the cost of making a bottle. And even then, the CRV program doesn't have a 100% recycle rate, because it's just not worth it.
Each year, Redwood Materials recycles more than 6 GWh of lithium-ion batteries, the equivalent of 60,000 EV batteries and they are JUST getting started.
But who wants a 50% degraded battery? Oh, I guess it's okay if you don't plan to leave town -
it would be worth negative money.
Changing the battery in a new F-150 Lighting - $28,556.47
Changing gas tank on my '97 F-150 - $50
🤨
Excellent analysis. Very fair and covering diverse perspectives. Well done.
Now, this is information we need to know. Next topic, would be great to know what re-sale/trade-in values will be on used EV's. Would we lose a great amount of value$$ on a EV?
Great question 🤔
And think about it... It's not even just an issue of percentage. If an $80,000 Lightning even loses 50% of value, that's $40,000, or 100% the value of a new gas truck. So, unless an EV can retain 100% of its value, you'll be always be at a loss, in terms of resale value.
But I highly doubt EV will even have the same percentage losses as regular gas trucks. I mean, who is going to spend any significant amount of money on a 10 year old degraded EV? Any repairs they might likely need will total out the vehicle.
Actually used ev’s are selling better then ice. I sold my old ev for $5k profit
@@phileasler5401 Which ICE? Have you seen the resale value of used trucks lately? There are 10 year old gas and diesel trucks selling for a profit, more than they were new 10 years ago. Can show me a 10 year old EV selling for a profit? Besides, this is certainly no macroeconomic measure. We're currently experiencing economic disruption, with supply chains issues, inflation and an out of control energy sector, so there's no point in drawing comparisons until the dust settles.
@@phileasler5401 That's anecdotal. There are many ICE vehicles selling for similar or greater profit, because of supply chain problems. But historically, EVs have had much worse resale value, particularly out of warranty. Honestly, unless they bought it cheap, anyone who buys an old EV out of warranty is being foolish.
And in a nutshell that's why EVS are a no-go for me can you imagine a $35,000 battery replacement after 60,000 miles
Why 60k miles?
Well the batteries are warranties for 8 years or 100k
Excellent. Thank you for bringing the real cost difference into perspective.
Good informative video. The more info we “people on the fence” hear, the better! You explain in simple terms. I think the local Work truck Contractor , will be the hardest industry hit, they mostly have a 12-16ft. trailer to tow! Stop & go traffic, 80-90 mile range ? That would be tough , till Technology kicks in ! Thanks !
EVs do a lot better in stop and go traffic than gasoline engines because the EV is only using the power needed for the lights, HVAC and radio when stopped. Gasoline engines are still burning fuel and if the vehicle is not moving, then almost all of energy goes into heat. The city MPGe is higher than the highway MPGe for EVs.
The big question is will the manufacturer's future upgraded batteries fit or work with the 2022 models? Like laptops or Mobile devices, probably not.
Thats possibly true, but then again there is a market for retrofitting modern batteries to fit in radios and other electrics that require obsolete/extinct batteries. Its all according to what the market finds worth replicating. A 1938 Zenith radio may draw more interest that a 2008 HP laptop.
@@robrobinson8597 Those retro fits are not good ideas. The cells from old batteries are still degraded. So they take a bunch of cells that already are down to 85% life and put them in a rebuild and the rebuild won't last long. The problem is ALL the cells in the battery degrade at the same rate, that's what the charge controller does, it distributes the draw evenly from each cell.
Any rebuild won't have new cells. It will be composed of cells that are near their end life.
@@cb-gz1vl The retrofits Im talking about actually use modern new batteries that they balance and package to fit the space, amperage, and voltage needs of vintage equipment.
You can rebuild the engine with couple of thousands but you can't repair the battery. In the meantime I look at the battery as the fuel thank not as an engine. Usually, electric motors have less longevity than gas engine when harsh conditions are inplace. You can maintain the gas engine but not the electric motor.
In my opinion, we're way far from practical electric truck. I look at them as a rich kid toys not as a truck.
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We are entering the era of the ‘disposable vehicle’. Once the battery goes out the vehicle is essentially totaled. Rechargeable batteries work best when fully discharging and fully charging. Otherwise they don’t want to fully charge.
A hybrid vehicle is probably the best of both worlds at this time.
All good points! I think many forget how battery prices COULD go down and capacity SHOULD go up. No guarantees on either, but no guarantee gas prices may not spike or plummet either.
8:00 is an important point IMO: less mech issues is a valid argument. On the flip side, MANY issues I see online are electrical-related (wires, connectors, etc).
I'm a busy person and businessman, TIME IS MONEY , I need a real truck, we call them work trucks I've have better things to do, .. than to sit at a charging station picking my nose while waiting and waiting for a vehicle to charge ... that's a good name for these stations ..... NOSE PICKING STATIONS
The battery in my cell phone lasts 4 or 5 years tops. It is the exact same technololy as these car/truck batteries only it is typically in much less harsh conditions. My truck is 17 years old and still runs great. Sure gas costs a lot, but electricity isn't free either. Much more expensive and greatly reduced functionality. Without some major revolution in battery tech/cost, its not even close to what I'd consider to be a reasonable choice.
FWIW, the battery replacement issue is real but it's just one of the factors you put in the back of your mind. No point in worrying about something 5 or 10 years down the line. A higher priority to be tackled is the fact that EV TRUCKS aren't at parity yet with ICE. The cost is significantly more and the versatility is significantly less. That's what needs to be addressed first IMHO.
The real question is , will Ford keep batteries for these vehicles past the warranty period? I have heard that batteries for earlier models hybrids, can’t get batteries for them from Ford. I don’t see the price going down because the technology is going away from lithium in the future because of cost. It will always be $35000 or more for a battery from ford . The reason I says this is because they will not be any in stock. Order only .
Look no maintenance costs, until the first maintenance cost that will cost you a mortgage. :)
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EV’s are a damn joke! They are NOT practical in every way!
As a retired 30 vet of auto sales, If you think this little tidbit of information won't affect your trade in price, you heads buried deep in the sand.
I do not care what the warranty says. if your vehicle has any amount of mileage while under warranty, the dealer will (not) replace the whole battery with a new one. they the dealer will replace the bad cells only, just as with other warranties . replace the bad part period. it does not say we will replace the battery with a whole (new) battery. that is a fact.
I can't wait until you see people selling the LS conversion kit for all the EVs
Put a 12 valve Cummins in it like a 6.4 PS truck
@@franklaskus2395 $BT with twins 😂😂
Those battery cost are ridiculous, my 16 year old gmc duramax runs like a raped ape and tow with it on a weekly basis and has racked up over 500k miles on the original motor and transmission. If I need to replace the motor it's around 11k and the transmission is around 5k so you do the math
Great video. Another factor in the high battery cost is that new vehicle parts pricing is always higher. An example is a friends brand new 03 Focus wagon, rear window was broken by a vandal. New cost $2800.
"Warranted for 8 years so if it goes at 7, you're OK" Until you read the fine print and discover the "warranty" at the 7 year point is likely pro rated and you'll actually get a discount but it won't be free.
They're not prorated
@@kimblakely4559 I'm amazed but that's a good thing.
I would not be a bit surprised if the cab & bed both have to be removed to replace the battery.
Agreed. Those batteries are between the rails of the frame.
In 1981, I purchased my 1965 Ford f100 1/2 ton pickup for $1500 dollars. It was some what very well used. It had a 352 V8 engine, and it was the original from the factory. I am the second owner, for I had purchased from the man that had purchased it in 1965 from the dealership. Since I purchased this truck, I drove it about once a week. The engine finally gave up and I need to rebuild the engine. The failure was the main cam bearing gave out and wouldn't maintain oil pressure. The crankshaft, main bearing and rod bearing are mic to factory specs.
Mr Tim, second in command next to Jill. Somehow the second half of the equation is missing. Mainly recycling and recovery costs.
When I purchase a 1930's technology Lead Acid Battery for my 2015 Kia, I still have a 10 or 20-dollar core replacement fee.
On a $150 replacement battery that is13% of the battery cost. If I exchange my dead core for a new battery, no real impact on my back pocket. It costs me 10% to 15% of the battery price to exchange for a new battery (and we know that the core recycling fees are already baked into the retail price of the battery.)
Last time I checked - Lead was not a precious metal,( just a poisonous one) Lithium is a precious metal.
We have to assume that the cost of recycling and recovery of the metals are already figured into the invoice price of the battery. You can not tell me that the Lithium in my 10yr old battery is worth 0 dollars. First adopters are paying an invisible tax on these batteries. Today (October 22, 2022) the price of Lithium is over $74,860 per metric ton. Lead is $1911.5 per metric ton. Someone is making a huge profit (or will make a huge profit) when these batteries need to be replaced in 10 years. The average EV battery today contains 8Kilo Grams of Lithium. That is nearly $6000 of Lithium in the battery you are giving to the dealer when they replace the battery. That almost pays for 16 Mcdonald's Happy Meals.
This market has to mature before us every day Tom, Dick, and Harrys can really afford and EV.
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Spammers live and die by the keyboard. Give me your IP and I will wire your keyboard to 220 volts (I know how to do it now, I watch Tim install one)
In Australia we get screwed over on all prices, this is a list of the current EV prices in Australia as of October 2022 - BYD Atto 3: $44,381
MG ZS EV Excite: $44,990
BYD Atto 3 Extended Range: $47,381
Hyundai Ioniq Electric: $48,970
Nissan Leaf: $48,990
MG ZS EV Essence: $49,990
Hyundai Kona Electric Elite: $54,500
MINI Electric: $55,650
Hyundai Kona Electric Highlander: $58,000
Nissan Leaf e+: $60,490
Hyundai Kona Electric Extended Range Elite: $60,500
MINI Electric Yours: $62,825
Polestar 2: $63,900
Tesla Model 3 Standard Range Plus: $63,900
Hyundai Kona Electric Extended Range Highlander: $64,000
Kia Niro S Electric: $65,300
Mazda MX-30: $65,490
Kia EV6: $67,990
Polestar 2 Long Range Single Motor: $68,400.00
Kia Niro Sport: $70,990
Hyundai Ioniq 5 2WD: $71,900
Kia Niro Electric GT Line: $72,100
Tesla Model Y RWD: $72,300
Polestar 2 Long Range Dual Motor: $73,400
Lexus UX300e Luxury: $74,000
Hyundai Ioniq 5 AWD: $75,900
Tesla Model 3 Long Range: $76,200
Mercedes-Benz EQA: $76,800
Volvo XC40 Recharge: $76,990
Lexus UX300e Sports Luxury: $81,000
Tesla Model 3 Performance: $88,900
Tesla Model Y AWD: $96,700
BMW i4: $99,900
BMW iX3: $114,900
Mercedes-Benz EQC: $124,300
BMW i4 M50: $124,900
BMW iX xDrive40: $135,900
Audi e-tron SUV: $137,100
BMW iX xDrive40 Sport - $141,900
Tesla Model S: $147,990
Audi e-tron Sportsback: $148,700
Audi E-Tron Sportback: $150,900
Jaguar I-Pace SE: $151,432
Jaguar I-Pace HSE: $155,550
Tesla Model X: $165,990
Audi E-Tron S: $168,400
BMW iX xDrive50 Sport - $169,900
Porsche Taycan: $174,695
Tesla Model X Plaid: $174,990
Porsche Taycan 4 Cross Turismo: $176,600
BMW iX: $179,333
Audi E-Tron GT: $181,700
Tesla Model S Plaid: $186,990
Porsche Taycan 4S: $194,700
Porsche Taycan 4S Cross Turismo: $205,300
Porsche Taycan Turbo: $276,300
Porsche Taycan Turbo Cross Turismo: $279,000
Porsche Taycan Turbo S: $345,800
I drive less than 12,000 miles a year so my lightning battery & motors will be under warranty for 8 years. Since I'll always be charging at home and will be keeping in a 20%-80% SOC, I expect my battery to last well past the warranty period.
Exactly, my Mach E is 2 years old and I don't drive it like I stole it, and I don't fast charge but once or twice a year on bigger trips. 33k miles later and I've lost only 2 miles from my original range. I have to wait and see how my Lightning performs, I've got 6,800 miles on it since I purchased it. I drive it the same way as my Mach E, so I think I will see the same results.
Question: Can you buy a standard range lightning then in the future when the batteries die replace it with the long range battery? I'm guessing there is some tuning in the computer involved, but is it possible and/or easy? Or are heavy modifications needed?
Good question, I’ve had a my Lightning Pro for three month std battery, might think of a bigger battery in 4-5 years and sell the std battery
Probably that is the future of tricking out your EV.
It won't be worth the investment.
I’ve been waiting for this to come out! Now let’s talk residual value!
That price for batteries is just crazy
Tim your most likely wrong on the price of the battery. The price of the material for lithium has gone up as demand is getting higher. Now that we're going to be going from cell phone hand held too tools add vehicles it's going to go up that much more expensive.
Completely agree. Simple math; supply and demand.
Tim I have a question for you. The one thing that one has mentioned is does the battery emit an electrical charge that can cause cancer? Because of the length of time that you are driving your vehicle? If this is the case is there a faraday cage surrounding the battery so it doesn’t emit an electrical current like they say in cell phones can cause cancer because it emits a electrical current? Just as if you live near a big power line. What are your thought on this subject?
This. When I was in Chicago, I remember channel 9 doing a study on electromagnetic, radiation and cancer; particularly electric blankets. I bought the first US model year Prius, the 2001. After I bought that I’ve got esophagus cancer and the doctors gave me a 20% chance to survive 5 years. 14 years ago tomorrow as a matter of fact. I often wonder the same thing you are wondering. Because I had been driving in an electrical field just before getting cancer.
Interesting question. As far as I understand it, cell phones and these batteries do not emit ionizing radiation and can’t damage your cells leading to cancer.
There are conspiracy theories out there about G5 and the like but no evidence for it. I would be interested to see a study that suggests otherwise.
Tim love the video and information on trucks and SUV. I have a question about batteries cost. So if I was to by the truck for $95k and still in warranty then all good. But what happens out of warranty. What is the truck worth 8 yrs from now? Is the cost to replace battery more then the truck worth? Will replacing the battery make it worth more? I know it's early for this. But I have seen videos "Tesla battery's" cost more then what the vehicle cost. My wife loves watching you and been thinking about a lightning. But I told her to hold off because we do tow a camper a long ways. Which F150 lighting does not make sense for us. Thanks again and keep it up.
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Ya not falling for that.
I love how everyone thinks batteries will get cheaper in the future. Battery capacity on average has grown by about 5 percent per year over the last decade so a battery with a 200 mile range in 2010 now gets 300 miles but the rub is that car batteries have actually gotten more EXPENSIVE over the last 10 years because the components to make them are RARE so with even more vehicles projected to be electric over the next 10 years we should expect batteries to get MORE expensive not less expensive.
The fundamental error that many people make in doing these kind of analysis is that batteries ARE NOT energy sources. A battery is simply the electrical version of a gas tank. That's it! So all they are doing is trying to build bigger and bigger gas tanks that can store more and more energy so that will cost more and more money.
What we really need is a new source of alternative energy in transportation that is inexpensive, not more expensive storage tanks.
I was definitely considering the lightning pro (as a 2nd vehicle), until the price increases. BEV would work well for me a lot of the time and not at all too much of the time. My concerns with battery replacement in several years, even under warranty, is going to be availability. On the other hand, with all of the data collected on theses trucks, could ford come back & say “you fast charged your truck too often” or “ used the wrong charger” to avoid coving the cost of battery replacement?
So Tesla does the same thing and decides if you get replacement parts and can restrict fast charging if they deem vehicle not fixable.
@@ShadowOppsRC Not really sure what your point is. Are you saying we should be OK with it if Ford decides to do these kind of things because Tesla already does? How about it's not OK for EITHER of them to screw over the consumer?
Never forget that these corporations exist to make money, not cars. If it comes to them or you, guess who. They are not going to take care of you.
Dude! Sorry for all the flak you've been getting. I missed out on these vids because of not having internet due to Hurricane Ian. Glad I got it back to see this. Your argument for future battery cost makes sense and it will be interesting to see what the price will be ten years from now given inflation and everything. Definitely not a fan of E-trucks but I need to know about them to helps others who are make the best choice from reliable and accurate information. Keep it up and I'll see you down the road.
Good video. You should not assume that the battery price will go down in time. Everyone the world over is scrambling to get their hands on these rare metals. Demand keeps going up.
I drive a Prius and I am putting over 60 000 miles per year. Right now I have 345 000 miles. On 215 000 miles I had to refurbish the battery and mechanic charged me 600$ that is way more reasonable than 35000$
Can’t see any advantage whatsoever for an electric truck. If you tow and haul things like a truck was made for then it’s fairly useless. If you want to drive around and look cool then the ev truck is for you!
This is a great thought provoking video. As a EV driver and someone about to get a lighting these are my thoughts. This truck is not great for long range towing, it can do it, but now we’ll.
But, according to epa.go this will save you $3000 a year in fuel cost alone. Reduced maintenance for brakes, no exhaust, no oil changes. That puts is at even to better over ten years even if you gave to replace the battery. What I will say is automotive grade batteries don’t go to the recycling plant when they are done. They still have a long life in other applications so the old battery is not worth zero by a long shot. Is this the car for all truck people, heck no. But being scared of this cost is just fear mongering.
Great video, no reason to attack anyone over this, just needs a little perspective
Spin this however you want but a new ice engine does not loose 2 or 3% of range each year. Does it start to need parts or wear over time? Yes, ofcourse. But it certainly does not loose fuel mileage or range like you are claiming.
Consumer reports conducted a evaluation of 2011 Toyota Prius with 200k . Battery was still working at 98% and mpg was reduced to 38 mpg.
Uhhh, the Prius isn't an EV, It is what we actually should heading toward. When the battery isn't relied upon for 100% of the power it can last a long time.
OK the battery will cost you 30,000 at some point (will kill your resale), EV will eat tires at double the rate with all that tourqe (you won't be able to resist the feel of the acceleration), When you burt out the motor and speed controllers that will cost as much as the batterys, and all those fancy electronic options will fail eventually. What will the range be -10 deg in the winter or 110 deg in the summer and how much will extreme temps reduce battery life. How do you get a charge if you are on at holiday trip when all the charge stations are full up or not working and you are down to 10%. I think in 10 years these F150 lightnings will be money pits and cheap to buy because of all the extra costs as they age.
Kind of liking the new Ford Super Duty diesel with 500HP @12,000 FP torque even more. My current F350 gets 600+ miles range and has 220,000 miles on her, half of what I plan on putting on.. Still rips a 17,000 trailer over 12000ft mountain pass in 6th gear. You are correct, my first 3 cell phones and laptops wouldn't hold a charge over 8 hours, todays devices are 3 times better.
I don't think they are controversial, I think they are being rejected because the corrupt government is using our tax dollars to shove them down our throats...
Thanks for the great video, especially the $39,000 battery :( . I was poking around looking at loss of range in below freezing temps and it seems Tesla will degrade 9% overnight sitting in the cold. For $39,000 I'm moving my furniture and family out in the garage and parking it in the living room.
I think you misunderstood, the loss of range comes back when outside temperatures warm up. The battery isn't affected long term. No need to be protective of it. My EV never sees the inside of a garage and it's fine. Gas vehicles take about a 10% hit in fuel economy in the winter, it's basically a push.
Excellent discussion. Thanks.
I’m glad you were transparent on this issue. I have an 8 year 120k warranty on my battery that’s rated for 500k miles. I’m not one bit worried about it. Also if you drive another Ford truck, other than a Lightning, you’ll end up spending approximately $30k in fuel over the course of 100k miles. Driving a Lightning, you’ll spend about $4-5k in charging, driving the 100k miles. That’s not even including the maintenance the ICE Ford requires every 5k miles. The EV Lightning requires no maintenance aside from tires and windshield wiper fluid. EVs will always cost less than ICE in comparable categories.
You understand there is a difference between buying a tank of gas for $70 and financing $30,000 at 10% for 8 years. 🤣 after you have already financed the truck for 8 years.
Soooo....a $29,000 battery that gets you an "advertised"...cough, cough.....300 mile range BRAND NEW will degradate over time? Too what? This is laughable....hopefully battery technology advances sooner rather then later.
Keep up the great work and honest comments (doesn’t matter if I do or do not like EVs, they are coming). The ability to replace the battery in modules is what makes Ultium so unique and the perfect model that hopefully others will follow. Even in a “no money to fix scenario”, the dead section can be turned off so while you have reduced distance, the vehicle is still useable for reasonable distances.
Like I said in another comment, the modules will ultimately be more expensive, because of the scale in production and labor to replace each individual module. The first or second module might be cheaper than an entire pack, but eventually it becomes good money after bad. It's like repairing a cellphone part by part, vs just totaling out the phone and replacing it entirely with on off the shelf, or replacing 10 tiny lightbulbs vs 1 big one.
"Reasonable distances"? Oh please.
As a pickup truck owner, I am opened to the idea of a hybrid (non-turbo) engine but I have no interest in an all electric pickup at this time.
My 2012 Nissan Leaf used to cost $5000 to replace the battery. In 2019, Nissan raised it up 50% to $7500. In theory, battery should get cheaper over time. In practice, at least with the Nissan Leaf, it's the complete opposite.
Trade in value is going to be horrible who wood buy a 5 year old ev
The EV may not be the future vehicle to have. If new technology emerges it could prove to be a big waste of money.
That is why insurance is so expensive. To replace it from an accident isn’t feasible they total cars because of the cost to fix.
Bolt battery is $9k new for 280-300 mi range. Based on my uses (I take care of the battery) I expect to get 500k+ miles on my existing battery. Paid $16k for a Bolt Premier with 35k miles.
What makes you think that your battery will last 500k+ miles?
@@philiphjelsand5167 Going on my own degradation tests to figure how long to 80% deg. I don't abuse my battery and it shows in the tests. Also cab companies using Bolts and Teslas are pushing 500k+ miles.
Holy crap!
My biggest problem with EVs is they are marketed as replacements for ICE vehicles which they are most definitely not. At best, they are an alternative and a very expensive one at that. All EVs will eventually need to have their battery packs replaced. That's just how batteries work\fail over time like the traditional lead\acid batteries in ICE vehicles. Anyone that has had a laptop for over three years can attest to. The second or third owner will probably be faced with replacing the battery pack(s) as the average EV buyer doesn't keep their EV long term. Another question is will the battery pack still be available in years later? There are already some battery packs that are no longer available for vehicles still on the road. The Lightening is just a vehicle for the wealthy hipster urban cowboy wannabes. No one that uses a truck for truck things will buy it. I think the Lightening's battery pack will become as infamous as the 5.4L 3V grenades. Lastly, EVs don't begin to break even total cost wise until about 7 years into ownership.
I do electrical work and pack a lot if tools. I’ve been waiting for the Lightning, or any EV truck, to become available so that I can carry my tools around more effectively.
So what you’re saying about urban hipsters simply isn’t true.
We're already seeing a ton of these delivery vehicles going electric. Sounds like you need a better news station.
@@icevariable9600
How is it more effective to haul tools in a coal powered truck? The vehicle costs more, it's more expensive to charge it than put gas in it and you've got less range. That doesn't really make sense.
@@whatsthebigfndeal
1) I drive a Honda. So yes, driving a truck will be more effective than packing all my tools in the trunk of a Honda.
2) What the hell is a "coal powered truck"?
3) I was responding to OP's comment that "The Lightening is just a vehicle for the wealthy hipster urban cowboy wannabes". I'm no urban hipster cowboy wannabe. I work in construction, have a fuck ton of tools and prefer an electric vehicle if I can get one.
Yes, it costs more. So what. But you're incorrect, it's not more expensive to charge. True, the range is less, but none of my fuel charge will be going into Exxon or Shell's pockets when they're price gauging us during an inflationary period.
Makes perfect sense.
@@icevariable9600
Well, of course it'll be better than a damn car, that's not what we're talking about. Why not just get a normal truck, though? ICE's are more environmentally friendly, cheaper to buy and cheaper to operate. The EV thing is a scam. Coal doesn't burn cleaner than gasoline, nor is it more cost effective. Not to mention, the vehicles are basically disposable after a few years because nobody is gonna drop 20-30k on a new battery system.
Batteries are getting better every day.
Ist of all I don't know for sure, maybe you do, but I don't think changing the battery is going to be just unplug it, pull it out, slide in the new one and plug it in. I believe there's cooling lines etc.
🇺🇸 $25k for a Tesla battery! I'd rather replace ice engine.
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That is insane. My jaw is still dropped. No EV, we are not ready for this, that's just the reality some refuse to accept.
🇺🇸 the new battery won't retro fit! Ford wants you to buy a new truck. Not a new battery. Samsung Apple don't want you to buy a new battery for a phone 3yrs old. They want you to buy a new phone!
@@seymorefact4333 … big difference between a phone and a truck
@@tewksburydriver8624 sure is... Lighting is 6500lbs. Vs cellphone 180grams! $90,000 vs $700. Gigantic difference! 🤣
@@seymorefact4333 … lol very good
@@tewksburydriver8624 🇺🇸 but, seriously... Ford wants you to spend $100k for latest greatest updates rather than replacing battery. Just like Samsung and Apple!
That is an insane amount of money for a battery. The idea that someone will hold on to one of these trucks for 15 years and then decide to put a 35k battery in it is a pipe dream. The battery is not the only thing that is going to wear out. Steering, suspension, the actual drive train, plastics, the body, frame, paint, interior, the HVAC system (both for the battery and occupants) are going to be worn out. No one is going to put 35 grand into an asset that has depreciated from almost 100 grand down to a tiny percentage of it's original value. If one of these things needs a battery outside of warranty for whatever reason, old age and degradation, a car accident, or a failure of some type it is going to the scrap yard or to auction. The price of the battery is only going to increase over time due to inflation and the rarity of the minerals that makes these products. The average person in the united states doesn't even have a couple thousand dollars in their savings. What are they going to do? Go to a bank and ask for a loan to put a 35k (likely to be more expensive in the future) battery into a 15 year old truck? They will laugh you out of the office.
At least with a 15 year old gasoline truck you can go to a scrapyard and throw an engine in for a couple grand, even less if you can do it yourself.
An EV truck is a toy for the rich.
Thanks for putting this information up. I know calculating battery degradation is a difficult thing, but do you think the mileage is a bigger factor or years of ownership? You said your friend's battery went down 11% over 100,000 miles, but over how long a time was it (maybe I missed that part)? but then you said the battery typically loses 2%-3% per year. When I worked that out over 10 years, the degradation was 18% - 26%. I've heard that a battery needs to be replaced when it has about 70% of it's life left, so I'm trying to calculate how long a time that would be and wonder if I should calc miles? or years?
Both matter. Look at the warranty. It is in years or miles.
@@Pickuptrucktalk sure, I get that mileage and time are both a factor, but the window is so big depending on how you calculate it. If I got by 2%-3% per year, I need to replace it in 12-18 years. If I go by 11% over 100,000K, I won't need to replace it until around 300K miles which would take me nearly 30 to 35 year to drive that much. So 12 years to 35 years before replacement.... that's a big window.
@@brianbecker1180 2-3% should drop you under 70% over 10 years. And yeah, most times people replace at 70%. I’d say 10 years is more likely versus 35 years.
@@Pickuptrucktalk yes but battery degradation isn't linear as it degrades it will start to degrade faster and when you talk about you may be able to get an upgraded battery as technology evolves but that isn't how this hardware works all the subsystems are specific to the battery chemistry even if there is a break through in the next 10 years updating a current EV will be like what people do with old vehicles now it will be a complete overhaul to make it compatable a simple way to look at it get an old rc that used nicad or nimh then put a lipo battery in it, it will start out great but will die pretty quickly because it was never designed to handle the power available
with these batteries think of the life of an ICE cars transmission. if you beat on it, neutral drop it, rock it, floor it all the time, lots of high heat usage, heavy towing and no external cooler, etc. never change the fluid it may fall apart at 80k miles, but if you drive it like a normal human, and mainatin it properly, it will last 150k miles and still be usable. the internals will have some where, diminished performance, but the car is still drivable and reliable.
now think of batteries the same way. if you dont push the car to its limits all the time, fast charging, let the batteries go to near zero all the time, maintain it properly, not making them run at high temps so much etc etc etc, 11% at 100k miles is not bad in the long term...think of the tester guy down to 270 miles of range after 100k miles....270is still on par with most EVs sold today new! now that dude beat the snot out of his car and it only had that low of loss. if he treated it properly, i would bet his range would be 280-285.
when you think about it, i dont see the degration being a big issue. however, some cars will have better cooling ssytems in them as well....different tech, etc. but if you assume 8 years and 100k of usage and going from 300 miles range to 270, you have tons of life left you may just have to charge 1 day sooner than you used to.
no ev's for me 😒
I had Americas first big battery pack in my first year 2001 Prius. It needed to be replaced at 110,000 miles. Originally cost was like $6000. But by the time it was replaced it was $2,000. And Toyota USA picked up the entire cost. Batteries will get cheaper. There will be places that can repair more cheaply. Lease anything you can’t afford to own. Or buy cheaper things. I just recently bought 2001 Highlander for $6k /100k miles.
Toyota said the battery life is about 150k. Considering their gas engines easily go 400k without serious repair what would justify the additional cost of a battery? Just recently our 2010 Prius blew its head gasket. A known issue per toyota for the model years 2010 to 2012. Our battery went around the same time as yours and it was 3k for a replacement. If toyota didn’t cover that we would be in the hole around 7 to 9k with this head gasket issue and battery. Mind you this car only has 150k on it. With “newer” used engines have 130k plus. How can the consumer justify 2 large expenses compared to just having 1? In my opinion it’s not even worth hybrids with the added costs of repair and upkeep.
@@TonkaFire2019 where did Toyota say that? I found this quote from an article suggesting much longer. “Toyota has guaranteed that the 71.4kWh lithium-ion battery unit will retain at least 70% of its capacity for up to 10 years or one million kilometers (620,000 miles) driven (while most manufacturers offer 8 years and 100-150,000 miles).”
So both Purdue and Brandon received free battery replacements after the warranty had expired (thought earlier hybrid battery had 80k limit)? That's outstanding on Toyota's part. Were the failures degradation or complete inoperable drivable?
I'm not sure if you meant this to be a positive or negative point for battery technology, but I take it as a negative. You spent (or the manufacturer did) $2,000 in repairs on you car at 110,000 miles. Over the price of fueling a regular economy car, that more or less ate up all your fuel savings in 110,000 miles. So, you gained nothing by owning the hybrid. Also, keep in mind the Prius was more expensive than regular car to begin with. So, spent more to save nothing over the life of the battery.
@@spamfried894 if Toyota picked up the bill though, their savings are still in tact. Would be no different to a engine or transmission replacement in such a way.
You think the battery will be cheaper in 10 years, but it actually might not be available at all. They discontinue older ones as they move on to the next latest and greatest design. Then you're on your own. I can get a pullout drivetrain right now for my '03 Suburban for $1k, 5.3/4L60E. Or a 6.0/4L80E for $2k.
The Truck should have a small diesel engine with front wheel drive to get around with good mpg.
Back it up with electric powered back wheels for when you need torque.
Done.
U gotta be nuts to buy electric vehicles