How You Misunderstood Sonic Level Design (+ Shadow Generations Impressions)
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- Опубликовано: 28 июн 2024
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Intro-0:00
The Good-0:50
The Bad-7:24
Conclusion/Shadow Gens Impressions-11:07
So recently a new trailer and some footage for the Sonic x Shadow Generations remaster was released, and the more I see of the game the more I’m liking the direction they’re taking the new Shadow campaign. I noticed that a bunch of people were and still are a little skeptical, saying the level they showed looked “too linear”, which got me thinking. Aren’t a lot of 3d Sonic stages linear? What about linear Sonic levels is inherently a bad thing? I think a lot of these fears are a side effect of the most recent boost games, Forces and cyberspace in Frontiers, having stages that aren’t super engaging, and left a lot to be desired for most people, including myself. But Sonic levels have been pretty linear for over 2 decades at this point, and by taking a step back and looking at the broader picture, I think it's easier to see why this linear works, and this linear doesn’t 
Игры
every game got people like "is sonic gonna be good again?????"
Can't really blame them with Sonic's track record. We went from Generations one year to Sonic 4 Episode 2 the next.
@@spritvio639then we went from Generations, one of the best Sonic games to Lost World, a ok game to Mania, another great Sonic game and then FORCES💀💀
Didn't expect to see my Persona guy in the my Sonic guy's comments
They've been good again since Frontiers
@@why-ub9mt Frontiers was a good game but the main comment basically said that because of how inconsistent Sonic Team/Sega is with Sonic Games. They can go from Heroes to shadow and 06. Then they give us three good games back to back which are Unleashed, Colors and Generations and then back to mediocrity with Lost world(underrated game) BOOM and Forces.
Everyone bringing up Cyber Space seem to forget or ignore the Final Horizon levels, which are not only the best Cyber Space stages but include some of my favorite stages in Sonic. Shadow Generations takes more cues from them, mixing them together with Generations' style of level design to great effect.
Even if the cyberspace levels in the final horizon are all peak Sonic gameplay, they are still the small minority of Sonic Frontiers' cyberspace.
Horizon stages are good, but they are a small part of the Cyberspace stages. Most Cyberspaces suffer from both sheer linearity alongside the horrid handling
I've said this one and many times and I'll say it again, Sonic Forces is the equivalent of PTSD for the Sonic fanbase. The very moment we see a linear path or little automation we start loosing our mind, both of them can work when having constant interactions with the level heck even Adventure two has some bits of automation and linear levels but people don't have a problem with those, and that's because of how the game made you interact with the level, you are constantly on your toes trying to go for the high score or cool trick. Could that been madr better with diferent path ways and expanding the level on the Adventure 1 philosophy? Yes probably.
But then again we are now on a new age for the Sonic games, and we'll see how this serie can reach his full potential again.
Nobody? People make whole essays on gamedesign theory because they now believe that Sonic gamedesign has stagnated and never evolved or devolved and simply stayed the same(Which...lol.)
@@lpfan4491 Sonic stayed the same???? who says that lmao, that could be a miracle if the franchise stayed with one gameplay style
ruclips.net/video/IhhyoZ1Or4c/видео.htmlsi=oP8--ByxcXo74ly1
Great video mate, I always hated the “linear=bad” mindset, it’s not that the levels were linear that made the Forces stages bad, it’s that they didn’t require much from the player
Linear is bad when the level feels empty and doesn't offer obstacles while you progress through the stage.
I actually disagree with a lot of your points on cyberspace.
While yes the control issues you brought up are valid from a time attack perspective
The overwhelming lack of automation compared to forces and the context of these being bite sized special stages
Makes them actually fun to me
Using stomp bounces to skip past or jump over sections is quite engaging to me the biggest issue with cyberspace is controls really
The thing in cyberspace too is that there's some examples of the levels having some engagement or encoraging the player to engage with it. Everyone brings 1-2 as the more fun level not because its amazing, but because of the time being harder to achieve, it makes the player play better to reach it, which is something thats not present on the other levels unfortunately
I agree with the points made, and I too am excited for Shadow's campaign, but I'd argue Frontiers' Cyberspace levels are plenty of interactable. Of course, this requires knowing the homing dash, but after it became as popular as it did, Sonic Team even taught us how to do it. Not that every player will see that content, but it's cool that it's there at all. In any case, look at the speedruns for Sonic Unleashed, most of the top level runners aren't even interacting with the the level design, they're just exploiting the mechanics to skip over almost the entirety of of the level. It'd be easy to think that Frontiers is the same, but with Frontiers, the homing dash and the spindash require you to interact with the bits of incline and enemy placement. The top level runs use the albeit unintentional enemy/spring placement to go through these levels while still running or grinding on the level (except for 1-7). Of course, this is due to the myriad of invisible walls everywhere. And yes, i agree that the lack of speed is abhorrent, they even had to update the game so that he was faster in Update 1 and that was only after beating the Cyberspace challenge. However, the lack of the speed is what makes exploiting the homing dash and spindash so fun, theyre way way faster than the normal boost and are based on the level design itself. 3-4 (i think thats the one with just the rails) is the worst cyberspace level by far because there's no ramps or enemies to use as a way to get your speed up. In any case, this was a great video, man, keep it up.
holy shit, i never thought anyone would say it
The main problem with forces is the total lack of engagement for the player, like some stages can be beaten by holding forward or holding boost, cyberspace is somewhat better in this type of mindset cuz it wants you to do shit...but then it gets held back by its drawbacks: slower speed, vulnerable boosting, eyc
Forces really is the Sonic 06 to fans too young to remember the effect that game had on the franchise. Fans have gotten so scared of linearity thanks to that game, that just seeing it in any capacity will trigger a PTSD war flashback.
Great video man. I agree with the points about linearity being good sometimes. I honestly believe games like forces have made people way too nervous and over analytical of the level design. We just have to see when it releases, if it’s fun it’s fun
I just want the "Lost World" tweaks to be removed, like the camera flick. People moan about forces but LW was ground zero.
All facts. Forces has traumatized Sonic fans and every time they see a good amount of linearity in a Sonic Game, it’s classified as being like Forces immediately which is annoying. The Shadow gameplay so far has levels that are going to be longer than a minute, different pathways and good boss battles.
@@BBWahooWell, Lost World is 10 years old. We gotta start praising it as an underrated masterpiece because it TRIED to be different.
Over analytical? I don't think we're at that point where we don't need to do so anymore. Considering Sega 's track record.
I will give them the benefit of the doubt, because they got the original director and not kishimoto
The only 3D Sonic game that regularly has open levels is Sonic Adventure which has a lot of stages (or stage acts) that wrap around each other or has a lot of alternate pathways). Every other one is mostly linear with upper/lower paths or the occasional alternate route
That’s why it’s the best 3D Sonic. Levels felt like worlds instead of tracks.
@@juliocervantes751 I don’t disagree with you but I don’t think linearity is necessary a bad thing either. Even SA1 has its linear sections that are still iconic.
SA2 is mostly linear but it’s those linear stages like City Escape, Metal Harbour and Green Forest which are most loved in that game. But SA2 still has it’s more open sections like the bridge in Radical Highway, Crazy Gadget (which using the gravity gives you a lot of opportunity for shortcuts/alternate routes), Final Rush
After SA1, I’d say 06 probably has the most open areas in its levels but I wouldn’t call that the best game
@@MysticClaws100It’s not the linearity, more so the immersion of the stages. E.g Red mountain has you scale up and on the side of the volcano with “act 2” being inside the volcano. Each stage told a story and played differently. With a few exceptions, SA2 felt boxed in and generic in exchange for score attack. Boost gameplay is a way more efficient version of what SA2 tried to do.
@@juliocervantes751 Idk I feel like SA2 offers a ton of freedom for how you want to go about playing the stages compared to the boost games.
For boost games, there’s mostly only one way to play through the levels. Which is boost / avoid enemies and obstacles to get to the end as fast as you can. Of course each playthrough of the level is going to be different for everyone but generally that’s how it will go. Boost and avoid obstacles
For SA2, there are so many different ways of playing the same stage. Do you want to just get to the end, then you can. Do you want to speed run the stage, sure. Do you want to try to get an A rank? Do you want to try to go beyond just an A rank and try to get the highest score you can? Do you want to try to collect as many rings as you can in the stage? SA2’s stages are designed so that you can play them in any of these ways. All of these different ways of playing offers very different experiences of playing through the same level.
With boost games, you’re encouraged to just get to the end as fast as possible. If you want to try to go for high scores or high ring counts, it’s the same experience since killing enemies and collecting rings just contributes to your boost. So you’re going to go for as many rings/enemies as you can while boosting. Not to mention the S rank is pathetically easy in most boost games and you’re rewarded for time more than anything else
That’s not even to mention the extra missions all stages have in SA2. Collect 100 rings, find the Lost Chao, play with time limit/no checkpoint and hard mode. These missions add far more ways of playing through the stages too whereas the extra content in boost games tends to lack this depth imo and just have you play a small section of the stage again or have you play some random 2D platforming level with the same assets of a stage you’ve already played through.
@@MysticClaws100 i can see where you’re coming from. the control restrictions of the boost gameplay compared to Adventure gives you more ways to play. I just think as a whole, boost leans into the score attack style and streamlined the actions in less clunky way than SA2. The mechanics just flow better, and the stages progressively got more diverse level designs like Modern Seaside Hill and Speed Highway. Agree to disagree 🤝
I believe you're skipping a big factor: controls.
In Adventure, characters are very expressive to control. In Heroes, they aren't that expressive (still more than the boosties) but the movesets are greatly expanded due to having three characters all with unique moves (compared to each other, that is). Boost games don't have that luxury, that's why Cyberspace levels can't get away with reusing SA2 level designs.
I'd have to disagree with the cyberspace part. The motivation here is to speedrun the stage with spindash, homing dash, boost jumps and such
On another note, some of the stages in Frontiers are absolutely more fun to play than in their reference games. I'd say the SA2 ones, you can do a lot of stuff you just couldn't in that game, I get where your coming from, but SA2 does not allow you to experiment, just do whatever the game tells you to do.
I believe that non-linearity is a difficulty balancing mechanism. If player gets to slower path instead of dying, then top paths can be harder and would require better inputs, while lower path can be easier. Otherwise the level design will cater to good players and he frustrating or will cater to casuals which can result in being too easy and boring.
This isn't even the largest problem with 3d sonic games. Mechanics being removed and stages being simplified over time is. You could have great level design but if all you do is boost and jump its not that engaging now is it. SA2 level design would shine if it had mechanics unleashed had. Imagine QTE pads, not having to slow down to kill enemies and having a more responsive and reliable homing attack albeit when it comes to controls not being put on the best button since boost is the homing attack button. Imagine a time based rank system with levels that expand sa1 design philosophy. Imagine if we had stomp instead of the worse bounce and a double jump for better vertical platforming. That would be wonderful. Imagine if you were forced to balance on rails and could trick on them and messing up one sharp turn balance led to death. There is so much mechanical deph thats been lacking since unleashed at this point and games before unleashed also lacked the amount unleashed has. Unleashed is hands down the deepest sonic game and the level mechanics make the linear design rewarding like if you do a QTE in even the tutorial stage you can skip running around that one building finishing it faster but if you mess up and aren't fast on reacting lower path and run around the building. Drifting in unleashed once mastered is the most satisfying drift out of all the boost games, QSS while a glitch made quickstep wildly fun. Mastering a stage and getting an S rank in unleashed is like doing a perfect level run in Megaman Zero 3 where you never miss a single shot with your z buster while effortlessly slashing through enemies whilst maintaining momentum and the recoil rod adds even more crazy options and cool skips you can pull off like using an enemy to pogo off of to get certain rewards like a new heart tank or cyber elf that is usually only obtainable with a double jump mod from later in the game but you got it with recoil boosting. Sonic could benefit rewarding stage mastery with better flow and the issue with SA2's ranking system is the toolkits of speed and mech stages not being designed with the system in mind. You shouldn't need to slow down to homing attack some enemies instead there should be a way to zip through enemies and kill them on the fly without killing momentum and flow instead and the shooting stages are so basic that the shooting is more boring than SA1's version despite having more options just cause SA1 at least had gamma with a timer mechanic and chains giving more time back to finish a stage. Treasure hunting stages should have had an adaptable radar like SA1 radar for massive stages like death chamber, egg quarters, mad space and meteor herd.
SA2 Level design shines as is because it was made with those mechanics in mind. Importing Unleashed Sonic into SA2 would be freakin terrible.
Imagine drifting in sonic adventure 2 😂@@Terminal_Apotos
@@Terminal_Apotos It wasn't and you are lying to claim that. The ranking system goes against the boring and basic forces esq level design and drags out more stage time. Sonic and shadow move so slow and have no tools to easily shred through enemies, a lot of SA2 speed stages would work with unleashed sonic as there are hardly any moments of turning. Sliding would be better than charging a spindash or rolling under those moving objects and those tiny wall gaps. SA2 is the worst sonic game for ruining stage design and not building upon what sonic adventure started.
SA1 is genuinely not much more open than SA2. Most of the "open design" is for optional capsules that encourage you to either ignore them or go slow for no tangible reward.
one thing: you do have a stomp, just tap the button instead of holding it but otherwise from what I could gather i agree
Ranking was always Time-Based, look at unleashed, i have to finish rooftop run in a minute to get an S Rank
Time influences ranking but interestingly enough it isnt the only factor. I spent 11 minutes in rooftop run collecting medals and still got an S due to my enemy, speed, and ring score being extremely high lol.
Being Linear isn’t the issue, it’s being Linear and Basic. Space Colony Ark Act 1 has Basic Level Design that Heavily relies on Shallow Mechanics like the Homing Attack and Rail Grinding. Even when it does take Advantage of Good Mechanics like Chaos Control, it’s for Basic Stuff like making an Easy Timing to Create a Straight line for you to run through. Overall It’s not Terrible but it’s not raising the Standard, thats acceptable considering it’s the First Stage but Later Levels need to drastically raise the Complexity in order to get any High Praise from me.
True but it also has multiple pathways and it reminds of Final Chase from SA2. Also, I see you a lot on Premy’s channel and whenever I comment on his channel, no one’s ever able to see my comment for some reason on his Channel specifically.
@@amari648 What we’ve seen are mostly small deviations, they reconnect to the main Path in less than 10 seconds and are rarely designed any differently. For example the Hallway with the Ramps, stay on the Lower Path and you Homing Attack some GUN Beetles or Launch yourself off the Ramp to take the upper Path just to Homing Attack some Springs. The only Meaningful Alternate Path was the one that takes you to the Right Side of the Open Room but even that is practically the same as all you do in another set of Homing Attacks.
Most likely RUclips Blocking you, it’s censorship system is all messed up.
@@Terminal_Apotos I agree also thanks for the heads up🙏
Hi again.
@@legoboy7107 Again?
Disagree with you about Cyberspace. I like those levels.
I think the problem (or at least part of it) is not the levels themselves, but rather how sonic controls, in earlier boost games more linear levels were fine because sonic movement was amazing and allowed you to do some crazy stuff, but with forces and to a lesser extent cyberspace, sonic controls like ass, with a stripped back moveset and incredibly stiff turning he turn the levels that might have been salvageable into slogs.
Even otherwise bad levels can still be salvaged by a character that controls well, and that goes for all games.
Which is exactly why I find Sonic Forces Speedrunning so engaging. Most stages have ways to skip the automation thaat require more player input as well as a ton of tiny optimizations.
I suggest you look up luminous forest speedrun world record. Even the long hallway at the start of the stage has some really tiny optimizations.
2 jp bangers in one month? Damn damn the holidays came early
More than a month; this is twice in the span of a week!
I really hope Shadow Generations has at least an option for harder rankings
Open world Sonic is really good too though. Play the Sonic/Mario 64 (+Shadow) rom. It basically has Sonic with his natural physics and moves in an open Mario stage and it shines bright. Probably ironically one of the best Sonic (or Mario for that matter) games I have ever played.
ソニック・アドベンチャー
Amazing video!! This is one of the best sonic channels
Can't wait for sonic unleashed remaster some day
I really like your video, and get the point, but I want to ask about both SonicGT, the demo of Rollin' Rascal and level design, they share in some way. So does it count as a linear? And what do you think of them in general?
The problem with modern Sonic level design is that the level controls the character, not the player. Frontiers would've been an improvement if the devs knew how to program 3D movement again and going back to mind-numbing simon says gameplay AGAIN isn't going to cut it. But he's got a new hat- I mean cynically added a popular character to cash-in on the upcoming movie so it MUST be good. Totally worth paying full price for 90% of a game you already own despite all the free fangames by people who actually give a crap and know how to program.
Someone needs to get Pariah to listen to the ranking system portion of this video. Making ranking systems strictly based on time rewards you for blitzing through levels without engaging with them. That's fine for speedruns but I like having a reason to master the levels.
There have been instances of time based ranks done well because the game is centered around them (Unwiished and Advance 3 are good examples) but generally I prefer score ranks while having the separate option to time attack levels. Well, at least when the S ranks aren't just handed to you for free like in Forces.
great video dude, actual good breakdown of design aspects involved in these games
Great Video!
I kinda want to replay sonic heroes now
I'm gonna say something very controversial: Lost World was the last good Sonic game. When I understood the hiden mechanics I started having lots of fun with it.
When working on my fan game I realized quickly how liner levels are better for sonic than open ones. Too many people see linearity as bad due to bad examples that have spoiled the bunch
14:28 fin.
Great insights
good video🙏
YEAH!
I have alot of nitpicks
but i believe they could be COOKING!
Let just hope all my issues are because its the first level
if not itll probably be just better than cyberspace and forces but worse than unleashed colours and gens
but i have FAITH in SEGA and SONIC TEAM!
This was the worst analysis of level design in a Sonic game video
Me when I lie:
@@lemon5000-tj6nv be queit kid
let's see you do better
Shadow the hedgehog >>>>>>>>>>>>> Sonic heroes
Heroes sucks in my opinion haha 😆
Honestly, Forces for me was a product of bad level design and poorly calibrated controls on the Switch that made doing anything remotely reminescent of boost gameplay rage fuel. Command input is slow and it is punishing.
Respectfully disagree, cyberspace levels are good, especially some specific ones
Spark the Electric Jester 3 looks more fun and engaging than any mainline Sonic game I've ever played. That game does Sonic gameplay better than Sonic. Now that's a game we SHOULD be talking about.
NOPE. frontiers shits on spark. Foh
While I agree, sonic heroes sucks
sorry but hard disagree
heroes is great
@@NeonStudios763 who asked?
@@MMDAQ ‘who asked’ ☝️🤓
shut up before i beat yo ass with the super power of teamwork
@@MMDAQ who asked ☝️🤓
shut up with that corny shit before i beat yo ass with the superpower of teamwork
L take bozo