Interesting and perfectly on topic note that Google algorithms automatically post a Wikipedia link to "The Holocaust" based on the automated transcript and conversation... but no links to any other genocides we mentioned.
The algorithm isn’t very bright. It can be fooled w1th s1ight w0rd a1terations. Longer posts also seem to slip past. Perhaps it only reads the first sentence or two. If you want to post something controversial, try putting at the end of your post.
@@npgibson69 The origin of the word Algorithm came about when a person watching former Vice President Al Gore dancing, remarked what a wonderful sense of rhythm he had. . This observation of Al’s dancing talent was verified in person by my dance instructor Mr Dario Pinocchio🤥
I am a 73 year old man and I have spent the better part of my life trying to understand why I seem to always feel a certain sadness in my heart. Then I thought, maybe this had something to do with it. Hopefully this story brings out others like me. In 1963 Zionists came to my home in Casablanca Morocco, to convince my parents to send me and my little sister to Israel without them. I was 12 and my sister 9 when we started our miserable journey to the "Promised land". It destroyed our family and left me and my sister with long lasting scars neither one of us has been able to heal. Being from Morocco made it even more difficult to live in a more racist country than Morocco ever was. We had a very peaceful life as Jews living amongst Muslims in Morocco. We understood each other and helped each other. To this day, the principal advisor to King Mohamed is a Jew. But the Zionists needed boddies to fill Israel and slowly claim more and more land from the Palestinians they kept displacing. The people running Israel are not Jews. True Jews would have helped the Palestinians evolve and share in their fortunes, like we did for centuries in the Arab world. Israel claims it is defending itself? Against whom? The people they have been displacing and opressing for 80 years? Israel, my advice to you, if you want to survive, get rid of the religious zealots who run your government and join the 21st century.
I want to add the genocide of native americans, north and south, to the conversation. Tens of millions were destroyed to facillitate the wealth building and land taking by europeans, and was just one more example of human genocidal agressions that continue to this day.
I agree - selling disease infected blankets to American Local people when Europeans wanted to colonize that land was the intent and the execution of genocide
Are you familiar with Vladimir "Ze'ev" Jabotinsky's 1923 "Iron Wall", in which he brings up the "red indians" analogy to normalize and justify the intended ethnic cleansing of Palestine? A narration of the "essay" is available on YT, so take a listen if reading is not your thing.
While there are parallels, there are also particulars that are different. I don't take a reductionist approach. These things are common to the history of mankind, in every part of the globe. No ethnic group has blood free hands.
@@stevepearson8112I understand what you are saying, yet I disagree with taking this path of reasoning as it necessarily leads to relativisation. The "argument" that all peoples did it is concocted to allow for the claim that therefore the current one must be ok, too. Not surprisingly, this is one of the zionists' (favourite) talking points to justify their currently intensified albeit a nearly a century long genocide of the Palestinians. Comparisons are just that - comparisons. They allow us to draw parallels between sufficiently similar phenomena in their general outline, intention or outcome. Comparisons are not (meant to be) exact matches or carbon copies. The particulars necessarily differ, and include things like social circumstances and societal understandings. Without the ability to draw comparisons, all phenomena become one of a kind. And that - leads us nowhere.
''MORE CHILDREN were killed in Gaza Palestine in the FIRST 3 WEEKS of Israel's ongoing bombardment, than in ALL WAR ZONES WORLDWIDE in the LAST 3 YEARS of 2020, 2021, and 2022 COMBINED.'' - A quote by Professor Norman Finkelstein during a debate with Eli Lake on RUclips.
Syria, Afghanistan, Sudan, China, Kurdish regions of Iraq and Iran, Nigeria, Ethiopia Ukraine - to start with - have between them seen 1 million killed since 2020. To suggest 18000 total deaths in Gaza over 15 months, after taking out militants and normal mortality (like old age and disease) is anywhere close to that number is nonsense. This number includes adults and children. "Professor Finkelstein" is capable of any lie and cannot be trusted.
Syria, Afghanistan, Sudan, China, Kurdish regions of Iraq and Iran, Nigeria. Many more have been killed in EACH of these places and the death and destruction dwarfs what happened in Gaza. "Children" is defined as anyone under 18 and includes many militants aged 16-18, so even the suggestion of children distort how many were militants. That was the main statistic. Remember that Israel warned Gazans to move south before the major bombardment began.
@@vidamjer "Children" is defined as anyone under 18 and includes many militants aged 16-18, so even the suggestion of children distort how many were militants. That was the main statistic. Remember that Israel warned Gazans to move south before the major bombardment began. "Children" is defined as anyone under 18 and includes many militants aged 16-18, so even the suggestion of children distort how many were militants. That was the main statistic. Remember that Israel warned Gazans to move south before the major bombardment began. "Children" is defined as anyone under 18 and includes many militants aged 16-18, so even the suggestion of children distort how many were militants. That was the main statistic. Remember that Israel warned Gazans to move south before the major bombardment began. "Children" is defined as anyone under 18 and includes many militants aged 16-18, so even the suggestion of children distort how many were militants. That was the main statistic. Remember that Israel warned Gazans to move south before the major bombardment began. "Children" is defined as anyone under 18 and includes many militants aged 16-18, so even the suggestion of children distort how many were militants. That was the main statistic. Remember that Israel warned Gazans to move south before the major bombardment began...ad absurdum
@@vidamjer Have you anything, any source to back your fantastical claims perhaps, except "israel says so" and "I've been taught this (since birth), and therefore it must be right"?
I didn’t believe this was genocide either because I didn’t see what Israel was doing at first as trying to destroy Palestinians as a group and a culture. The more details I learned and saw - thank you, RUclips - the more I realized yes, Israel was doing that and the U.S. was making it continuingly possible. The more I have seen of the lives of the Palestinians in real time in Gaza the more it is impossible for me not to see genocide - many western countries are joining the U.S. to maintain this happening. Also I am hearing more about what Israelis are saying about the Gazan people. It is impossible for me to watch this and not be appalled by what Israel is doing in Gaza and the West Bank. I’m also reading the work of Norman Finkelstein and watching him speak on RUclips. I feel confident that the world is watching and speaking up - Israel, this will not stand.
@@blackiecortez1668 I've always been very shy about using the "G word" even about Israel-Palestine, a subject I've been extremely passionate about for a long time, but it was Israel's systematic demolition of every single university, library, museum, mosque, church, monument and municipal building in Gaza that really got me over the edge. They're truly attempting to erase these people from existence past, present, and future.
Were you a non-Z-ï0-ñï-ßt Jew you wouldn't have hesitated between belief and doubt in the first place: the future "State" of Izzyrel murdered Rabbi Yaakov Yisroel Dehan, an advocate for peaceful coexistence in the Holy Land, in Jerusalem on 1 July 1924 without as much as batting an eyelid, in cold blood. Once self-established, it barbarically, cynically assassinated the United Nations' Envoy, Count Folke Bernadotte, on 17 September of 1948 - a true humanitarian who had negotiated the release of more than 30,000 people, some of them Jews, from Nazi concentration camps.
@@blackiecortez1668 your words are gold … „every time I hear someone say „you all changed my view on Palestine and IsraHell by sharing the truth it‘s a win for humanity and human rights“
This is what the Nazi Holocaust would have been if America, UK, France and Germany were all on the same page and the richest man in the world said: "I'm good with that."
It helped me to understand the difference between Israel, the country, and Judaism, a religion, when I heard rabbis from the group Orthodox Rabbis Against Zionism.
100 people at least have been slaughtered in Gaza just today… starving, wet , freezing cold civilians being bombarded by Israel day and night. Evil doesn’t even begin to describe it anymore….
I've realised that it's utterly misleading to name what is being done by the israelis to the Palestinians as evil. Evil is a religious/theological category, if anything. And as such, it fails on all fronts to incapsulate the idea that genocide is, in (objective) reality, conducted exclusively by humans. Not gods or some otherworldly beings. Genocide is an entirely human affair. And THAT right there is a very scary thought that actual humans must grapple with. Because it necessarily implies that you or I could, in fact, be genociders under a set of specific circumstances. Calling it evil is the easy (the easiest, in fact) way out of this super uncomfortable thought. I get that hardly anyone will grapple with that possibility, and will instantly insist that that is an impossibility. And when confronted with the question why it's an impossibility, almost all of us will say that that is so because genocide is an evil that we humans are incapable of. We would never ever do that, right? And yet, the entirety of human history refutes the very idea...
IDF must have turned into zombies…what is taking place in Gaza is carried out from insanity. This isn’t a temporary period in the life of an IDF person.
I enjoyed your video. It's important subject matter. I'm almost 67 years old and have known for a long time that Hitler was not some unique personification of evil. Sadly, history is littered with them. It's dangerous to believe otherwise.
A state where 65% of the population regard themselves as "secular jews". I'm not sure what devout or fanatically devout catholics would make of people calling themselves secular catholics. Not much I would imagine.
I grew up in a family where my father and grandparents migrated from India to Pakistan at the time of separation right in the middle of communal riots and killings. My dad never talked about it his whole life to us. He never wanted my siblings and myself to be raised with prejudice and hatred in us. Throughout his life, he respected people from various ethnicities and race irrespective of their religion and beliefs. His attitude to life helped me not ever feel hatred towards anyone even when the state narrative fuels division and hatred. Killing someone because there is a possibility that person will be committing crime in future is not the world I want to live in. By this logic we should be detaining every criminal for life in the prison as they are more likely to reoffend once release from prison compared to general population (statistics that is replicated across the world).
@@ssheik004 Lord Louis Mountbatten was almost totally responsible for the disaster, because he was longing to get back home to Blighty within 3 months, and he wasn't prepared to allocate the 18 months which was needed to negotiate a unitary deal.
Well, one Theodore N. Kaufman in his 1941 "Germany Must Perish!" in all seriousness advocated sterilisation of ALL Germans capable of breeding (including newborns). That would have naturally included Sophie Scholl.
dont forget to boycott Saudi Arabia who funds Israel and send their troops to them--they also have a deal in the trillions $$$ with Blackrock which is Israel's military financiers
39:45 The ICJ case against Israel was not to decide whether a genocide is taking place or not. It is analogous to a Grand Jury hearing in the USA. The justices had to decide whether, prima face, South Africa had shown that a possible genocide was plausible, and that therefore the trial for genocide may proceed. Nobody should pre-empt the outcome of the trial at this stage. However, genocides are only proven after the event, so the ICJ has been given powers to order Israel to comply with certain measures, such as to provide humanitarian aid, for example. Unfortunately, Israel has simply ignored these provisions, and so the genocide (possibly) continues unabated.
There is no genocide in Gaza and after 12 months South Africa still has not found enough material to present the 'plausible case' it was ordered to make within 3-4 months. It has not, because all the great legal minds have not found Israel is actually committing genocide. Ireland wants to change the definition of Genocide to make the case. Also Israel has gone well beyond the compliance ordered by the ICJ, because it was already complying fully when the ICJ presented its decision.
The "insufficient Holocaust education" argument is insane. I attended public school in rural Michigan and there isn't a single subject we dedicated more time to. Not a year from 6th grade onward where we didn't cover it, often for several months straight!
I was brought up in Germany and in 20 years of schooling there wasn't a single week when the Holocaust was not discussed in one way or the other. That makes it even harder to watch the Israelis - of all people - inflict the same sort of horror on another nation.
@sabinehahn9774 Not surprisingly, the german compromised collective psyche turned from nazism to zionism under the selective guilt. They do not feel that way towards others and try to play the victims of mysterious nazis and consequences of ww2 like bombing of the cities or expultion of treasonous volksdeutche from the liberated lands.
Oh, your guest is brilliant but never looked under the hood of US project in Ukraine. The objective to ""to bleed out Russia" is a quote from Gen. Austin, US Defense Sec. after US told Ukraine to break negotiated settlement for Russia's withdraw achieved in April 2022. RAND's paper on "Overextending Russia" from 2019 outlines entire project together with EU conferences on decolonizing Russia make clear that objective is to break up Russia into smaller and weaker pieces.
Great Summary and you are right … this leads to something much more sinister than Genocide …. it exposes that so few people are truly care if other people were slaughteref and the rest is not capable to intervene, so we are forced to watch it unfold in all it‘s horrible details. The Scene with Darwisch at the end hit hard … and he is 100% right in every possible way!
Jews were involved in resistance, see Warsaw Ghetto uprising, as one most famous example. My father was in his early teens and in Warsaw at the time. Also, nobody in Russia is calling for exterminations of Ukrainians, and its boarders were established for political reasons and included large Russian, later also Polish and other minorities. Ohhh
Many of us are familiar with the (much maligned in Izzyland) brave leader of the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising (who went on to fight in the general Warsaw Uprising the following year), Dr. Marek Edelman, and his solidarity with the oppressed and resisting Palestinians.
To me, nazies, zionists and jihadists are all the same. They all use religion in order to gain power and wealth. I believe they are to be found in any "Abrahamic " country. However, in Russia the government fight back against this mindset. In the West this mindset is supported by the many governments. The Abrahamic religions are perfect tools for colonization : My God (my belief, my mindset, my policy) is the only God.
@@AgnieszkaNishka In the Warsaw Ghetto uprising there was already a division between Zionists and anti-Zionists (called "The Bund"). Given the enormity of what was happening, the Zionists got all the sympathy, and the Bund got shoved into the background, but I still like listening to the anti-Zionist ballad "Oy, ihr narische tsionitsen". Narisch indeed.
Genocide is essentially the appropriation of territory by all means deemed necessary by the appropriating group. It always seems to involve fighting over land, resources, and culture. There is always a demonized "other" involved in the script. The Genocide committer's always feel justified in their actions as well.. a sad situation indeed.
I really like your content and how you explain how your minds processes what is happening. I would love to see you on a more laid back (as much important ) podcast like the bad hasbara one.
Thank you for FINALLY calling it what it is! We need more practicing jews to go to their synagogue and press then to spread the word so the world will stop conflating this country with a beautiful faith. 😢
🤢If you haven't seen this as the "G-word" since Yoav Galant made his speech shortly after Oct 7, I'm not sure you've been paying attention to be quite frank.
I hear you. The funny thing with this word though is if I or Dirk say "it's actually something worse than genocide" somehow people would be like "well at least it's not a genocide". Ya know?
@@JayShapiroDilemmaHost I think the point is not to get tangled in the nomanclature of the word, I've been watching what has been happening in Gaza since I was a teenager with deep unease, I've gotten to know people who have managed to escape it. We all knew when Oct 7th happened the reprisals would be bad, when Yoav Golant made his speech, we knew it would be worse. Also we need to look at the purpose of the G-Word, what is it's end goal? Settler Colonialism. People want to live in safe little enclaves with people that look like them, sound like them. I, like you guys live in a country born from colonialism, South Africa. I can also delve into Apartheid, which I also think Israel is guilty of BTW, and yes many black people who have been to the occupied territories have made comments like "it is worse than Apartheid was", but it meats the broad definition of Apartheid. The goal right now is to end the occupation and the suffering, we can then possibly look back and discuss nomanclature. Maybe we need to add Nukba to the list of crimes against humanity, but here, now, we just need to brutal violence to stop.
@@JayShapiroDilemmaHostRespectfully bro that's what every Zionist who wants to sound reasonable and balanced sounds like. Isn't-rael something that doesn't make sense on a fundamental level and everyone can clearly see it. The Zionist says "oh it's a very complicated issue". You should watch Matt Kennard's interview with a boomer Zionist he basically goes around in circles trying to muddy the waters when it is a clear cut issue.
An interesting conversation. Good information and questions. A couple of points of disagreement - 1) North Korea is simply called a rogue state without any explanation. I am not entirely sure what is the basis for it. 2) China is repeatedly called for the situation in Xinjiang as a case for putative war crimes or genocide without any reference to the facts of the matter, which certainly speak to a totalitarian surveillance state, but nothing that warrants the above charges. In this context, one has to remember that Totalitarian surveillance in China is not limited to Uighurs but primarily concerns the Han majority.
Thank you - very interesting and thought provoking. Defintely an example of legal games and definitions forgetting the purpose and rationale that underpin the reasons the laws exist.
You deleted one of my comments, I'm not sure why. It wasn't inflammatory, it didn't contain any of the offensive words by RUclips standards. I simply pointed out that avoiding the "g" word because it's too emotive for some to handle is all the more reason I think it should be used. Whilst I'm not saying it's exactly like the Holocaust, it matches the gravity of what is happening. Now is the time to challenge the idea that "g" word should only be reserved for the Holocaust. Failing to do that will guarantee that "g" will keep occurring all over the world, whilst we twiddle our thumbs waiting for the number of deaths to be equal to the Holocaust before we do anything. The amount of g intent and dehumanising language used by Israeli officials and the systematic way they are carrying their crimes so brazenly must never be normalised. This is the most well documented g in modern history and to refrain from calling it that is a moral outrage in my view. Without calling it what it is, the countries that facilitate this heinous crime will have nothing to worry about and thier citizens will not be as inclined to put pressure on their governments to stop supplying arms. If "never again" is to mean anything, it must mean "never again" for anyone. It cannot be right that only one set of people get to define g for everyone else. If we don't change this injustice now, we'd be failing future generations. Thank you for a brilliant discussion. ❤🙏❤
Thank you, A. Dirk Moses, I will certainly invest in your book. It sounds like an incredibly important book to read at a crucial time when we are all asking these questions.
I don't know if you guys ill mention this, but I just had a thought about the difference between genocide and crimes against humanity in the public conceptual landscape: Genocide is about the "genes", it's about the specific identity of the people being genocided: that means that people can feel like "it's about me, my identity", the crime is motivated specifically against me, so I'm the indisputable victim, and the others are all the perpetrators. Wheras "crime against humanity", well, it's not really about me, right, it's about "humanity". And our identification with "humanity" is oddly far weaker than our identification with a genetic or sub group of humanity. There's something really fundamental about humans that basically, being "human" is the weakest part of our identity.
We didn't put in exactly those terms but that is a really good point. I kind of get to it a bit in the outro with my X Men thing... sort of. But that is a great point really and does allow uninvolved people several generations removed to assign themselves as victims (a strangely appealing habit for humans.... since it socially dismisses/excuses much of our selfish behavior)
@@JayShapiroDilemmaHost You're absolutely right to identify that this is what enables the multigenerational survival of the victimisation idea. It's the genes, that's what gets transmitted. After all, my "ancestry" is defined precisely by what make me *differerent from other humans*, not what makes me like some of them.
It's an anachronism. Tribalism is rightfully seen as uneducated and repugnant, yet it persists in being normalized, and evolved humans are held hostage to its depredations.
I'm grateful to have learned more about the meanings of these words and some ways that it gets complicated to use them. Good on Google for suggesting it for my feed.
You also removed my comment regarding Hamas not being a terrorized organization. The colonizers are. I also encouraged you to look up the term Gaza ghetto uprising which people use to compare Oct 7th with Warsaw ghetto uprising. Please don't delete my comment.
RUclips probably deleted your comment. That is if if it happened close to immediately aka you never saw it posted. It deletes half of mine. Any time you mix certain words together and especially using names it gets censor-y.
RUclips delete many of my comments , it is not always the video producer. If you speak the truth and it goes against the propaganda narrative desired by Western ruling sociopaths , it will be hidden.
Very good to address these issues but ignored in the case of Gaza the. Absolute limiting/ cutting off of access to water, food and the destruction of health facilities, targeting the limbs of children . That is purposeful and not collateral damage!
That's definitely true. It seems quite difficult to claim a "military objective" through those means... but I think Dirk's warning about the "permanent security" mindset are really important there to consider. Thanks so much for the listen
All you do is talk about the optics when it comes to Israel. Nothing about justice or accountability on the numerous documented warcrimes commited. How mass civillian slaughter and collective punishment can never be justified. Even the discussion of genocide is appalling. No discussion of elaborating the UN reports since it has documented clearly of the Gaza genocide.
You should see my other videos. This one is certainly academic in nature rather than what you are looking for... But I have those too. And think they are both crucial.
dont forget to boycott Saudi Arabia who funds Israel and send their troops to them--they also have a deal in the trillions $$$ with Blackrock which is Israel's military financiers
dont forget to boycott Saudi Arabia who funds Israel and send their troops to them--they also have a deal in the trillions $$$ with Blackrock which is Israel's military financiers
As always Mr Shapiro makes you sit back and reflect on matters through various angles without ever loosing the sight of humanity. I appreciate if you do a show on “self defence exercised by state”.
People make a lot of 1984 or Brave New World analogies, but to be honest, the more times passes, the more I wonder whether Ursula Le Guin is not who nailed the core moral and political framework for our world with "The Ones Who Walk Away from Omelas".
Thank you Jay for this pod cast, I also thought the idea of national security is leading to forever wars, control of populations, land and wealth creating resources.😮 Did all this not begin with development of nation states which now mostly are military states, or attached to strong military powers. Is it not all a massive attack on humans, enviroments and nature. Even the popuations and nation states who believe themselves to be wealthy and winners are in the quagmire too, probably in a worse way than the 'losers', because they think they deserve what they have😅, waddling in blood. Is this need to control nature, land and resources rooted in religions and ethno centric politics?
Very informative conversation and brings to light one of the major things Israel has used to justify their g3nocide and apartheid. For instance the recorded video of Netanyahu, post Oslo, talking about how he used the fact that “military outposts” were not properly defined in the agreements and thus he was able to use that to continue to expand settlements, coupled with the fact that the ones who would be most guilty of genocide given historical events are not members of the ICC/signatories to the Rome Statute (Israel, Russia and the USA) and China/India don’t have good records of this either. Can’t be held accountable for those crimes if they don’t acknowledge these laws even exist.
Until human beings stop labelling themselves as this or that these sort of things will continue to happen. I for some reason have never aligned myself with any group. I think non tribalist people like myself view religious, political and nationalist organisations as bad guy vs bad guy with cognitive dissonance is running the show. Free Palestine.
Never mind. If the former director has left, Clark students may have a freer environment in which to learn about genocide. Especially, since she pursued trying to have students disciplined, even as their tuition made it possible for her academic research, teaching and administrative work.
I'm now at your conclusion. You've convinced me that ultimately what matters is not the characterisation as a thing, ie "genocide", but rather to characterise the motivation, the intentional eradication of people in the largest possible numbers, and this being made possible by the dehumanisation of the people in question. It does seem to fit the genocidal definition to me, but ultimately, you're right, I don't care about the word. What matters are what we accept as factually descriptive of the actions, not its ascription to a category.
Cheers mate. That's also where I am... though obviously I understand screaming genocide (i may continue to do so) in order to alert the world in whatever linguistically imperfect ways we can. But i am really interested in exploring the security state future of Orwellian surveillance stuff... that seems to be the scariest and most likely future rather than mass murder events.
@@JayShapiroDilemmaHost Yes, Orwell sure cornered a lot of the modern world's core concepts. But as I say in another comment to this video, which is characteristically very fertile in new thoughts and connections, thank you for that, I think we should revisit The Ones Who Walk Away from Olemas. The world feels more and more like that to me. Ultimately, the Orwellian machine is what enables the Le Guin moral situation.
Oh yes! of course I know this story. I just revisited it and yes... i think I'll have some future thoughts that mention it. I think of it often. (the worlds not worth winning... etc...)
@@JayShapiroDilemmaHostThere's also a video of Aki Orr, courtesy of Max Blumenthal, which I tried to recommend (removed) to be found embedded in the August 27, 2011 issue of the +972 mag. "Akiva Orr on J14: 'The longest journey starts with one small step", in English.
Is it worth buying Professor Moses' book? The concept about security seems like it has enormous potential to direct us towards a rigorous theorisation of justice. But if the development of that concept in the book is as minimal as the level of attention given to it in this video, then the book probably doesn't go very far. Has anyone read it and can suggest if security is discussed at proper length and depth?
@@JayShapiroDilemmaHost Thanks for the rec! Would be amazing to have him back on and discuss some specific themes about how to be productive with his concept of security. If absolute security can be used to justify anything, then we must think the human right security in relative terms; and what options do we have for concepts to think security relative to? What kinds of statecraft and international-legal formations might result from some of these options, and which kinds of identity groups might be emancipated/disenfranchised by different ways of doing it? And of course, which ways of doing it might be relevant to thinking about Palestine?
great questions... yes I really want to get more into "the language of transgression" with him... and I'll try to focus a bit more on turning all the academic thinking into action... it that's possible.
In china I don’t believe they are trying to de-islamasize the Uyghurs because there are mosques and culture vibrancy of Islam there. It’s the extremism that the Chinese are focusing on.
Moslems aren’t allowed to observe Ramadan there. A girl I know was arrested just because her father is an imam. She is not even particularly religious; she really loves rollerblading.
@ love your work and would love resources you could point me to on it. This guest, for example? Everything I’ve found with that perspective is either msm sources or people who lean on msm sources with little evidence and a track record of vilifying china.
The genocide standing atop at the hierarchy of war crime legislation is also something that the youtuber BadEmpanada also discusses in his video ruclips.net/video/CDdt9QfC68U/видео.htmlsi=cbwEnL4WQh9V6R9v which uses the Bosnian genocide as an example.
Cool. I will check it out. I've seen some of his stuff... seems like an interesting guy and gets entangled in a lot of ugly social media stuff. I don't envy that.
@ Yeah, also i loved this conversation and it was enlightening. I’m also from the state of Queensland and yes the racism here is pretty bad especially in the northern half despite having the largest proportion of Aboriginal & Torres Strait islanders of all the states.
Thank you for pointing out Roma people and Sinti. I didn't know about Sinti, but I have over the years repeatedly mentioned Roma people and how they are forgotten. Even online dictionaries in my country don't mention other than jews when saying what the definition Holocaust is.
@@FenrirFluffyFreyja "The Sinti are a subgroup of Romani people. They are found mostly in Germany, France and Italy and Central Europe" wiki Specifically here in Germany it has become common to name them both according to their wish since the outdated label that was put on them is not in use anymore
I thought the discussion with Dirk and your introduction and reflection were excellent. Plenty to think about. As to your question whether it matters (for the Palestinians) what term we use, I think it does. In general, I think people need a common understanding of crimes that are committed, to (hopefully) prevent them in the future and hold perpetrators accountable (even though this often doesn’t happen). It also important for the victims that it is acknowledged that a recognised crime, like genocide, is committed (I don’t think victims should be able to claim a crime as exclusive to them). In the excellent podcast by “From the periphery”, which you refer to, there is also a segment with Edward Said in which he laments how there is nothing in the world that sustains the Palestinian story … for that reason alone I think, the advisory opinion by the ICJ and an acknowledgment that genocide is committed is important. Maybe a more suitable term/concept will be developed by lawyers and scholars, but for me, the term genocide (in a settler colonial context) is fitting.
The core issue causing immense human suffering is the universal belief that violence and war are appropriate means to resolve conflicts. We must challenge this belief. If we believed in peace, countries would have Departments of Peace and Reconciliation run by psychologists and negotiators, such as the late Marshall Rosenberg, who created the Non-Violent Communications protocol. Instead, we have liars and propagandists who work for cruel and heartless weapon manufacturers and such. May we create societies focused on meeting natural human needs of safety, health, and connection.
@@JayShapiroDilemmaHost The Israel/Palestine situation is horrific and I am proud of people like you who are standing up for human rights. However, there is extreme violence in people's personal lives (including emotional violence) and globally. We really need to work towards a political and economic system which meets people's natural needs (health, safety, freedom, family, etc.) . There is no end to violence without that.
I also checked out the referenced podcast on the Uighur situation; it seems to contain a mélange of real concerns, such as totalitarian surveillance, with much less substantiated claims, such as the disappearance of millions. You might consider it helpful for the sake of a balanced view to invite somebody like Daniel Dumbrill to consider these claims more closely.
Jewish voices against this genocide are extremely precious. ThankYou very much. Judaism has Nothing to do with Israeli terrorism, war crimes and ethnic cleansing.
I was there when Mary was still there and it was a really interesting set of courses... though like I said it was basically all about the specific jewish genocide during WW2... I trust that the department will come out of this situation stronger and with more focus.
The post-modernists must be rubbing their hands with glee that you two are spending all of your intellectual capital on arguing about the meaning of words, instead of the substance of the arguments. But I suppose that's what gets the research dollars today.
curious how you think "the substance of arguments" is different than "the meaning of words" I would say that in this case the substance of arguments is directly tied to the twisting and defending of the meaning of words... like Dirk said he (and i) are less concerned with pinning the tail on the donkey (the meaning of words) as we are with figuring out the strategic logic of states (the substance of arguments) seems you kind of got yourself turned around there. But i appreciate the comment.
@JayShapiroDilemmaHost You misunderstand me. I think that your perception that it's not genocide, but rather that the demand for an unattainable absolute safety is the actual problem, with genocide being the inevitable result, is a brilliant insight. My small criticism is that you could have got there quicker if you hadn't have gone via the post-modernist route. As with heartbeats during our lifetime, we have a limited number of brain cycles, and we shouldn't spend too many of them arguing about the meaning of words.
2:04:21 I appreciate you drawing this analogy. I'm a boomer. But may I recommend Attack on titans (anime or manga either is fine) is a far better parallel to this G issue. That's my take anyways. But u be the judge.🤷🏻♀️ Around March I saw some comments about it from others too. Really fleshed out beautiful story writing like magneto's backstory 😄 Also I do agree comic issues that era does have many deep layers of meaning which I rly loved. 😊 If u haven't watched any anime I think you will be pleasantly surprised with this one.
Do others who are marginalized, murdered, starved…deserve their own country? At the expense of the lives of others? Apartheid and settler colonialism is acceptable for some? Does this include descendants of slaves? Do indigenous/Native Americans/First Nations or Africans who were here before settlers have the right to defend themselves and retake the land they occupied more recently than Israelis in Palestine who are said to “have the right to defend themselves?” How does this make sense?
At the origin of every genocide, there dehumanization. At the origin of dehumanization, there is a supremacist racist state of mind. At the origin of supremacism there is a belief that technical advancement is the ultimate proof of superiority.
I absolutely love this comment. It is perfect... and it is very much aligned with the thesis of the book I am currently writing... about 2 years away from shelves probably (working title is Judging History). You nailed it.
Hesitation to recognise that the people of Gaza are being ethnically cleansed, ie there is a GENOCIDE, is a hard one to make excuses for. I wonder how many people years ago had excuses for not recognising the holocaust. I'm not impressed with your self centred argument while children are being starved and murdered.
That wasn't my take-away listening to the entire 135 minutes of introduction, dialogue, concuding reflection - see for instance 2:12:00 onwards > 'worse than'.
precisely... its just such an interesting place to be linguistically for me to say it's WORSE than genocide... and to receive skepitcal responses from people being like "but its a genocide!".... i mean I agree with dirk pretty much throughout. and I hope the legal structures at the ICJ do expand their reading in order to label this as a genocide... but that's like 3 years down the line.
Important video; but I found it frustrating because it buried the lede. The core idea-that the seemingly legitimate pursuit of total security can lead to horrors that, even if they do not fit the definition of “genocide,“ are every bit as horrific and evil-is essential to making sense of the situation in Gaza. And this was the first mention of this idea that I have come across in the media, so I was willing to spend 2+ hours on it. But really, only perhaps 30 minutes were spent on it; and sorry to say, but it was not developed as fully as it needs to be; and only a small amount of the remaining time was required for context. No surprise, then, that none of the first several comments referred to this important idea. Sorry to be a complainer when you’ve done more to promote this idea than I have! But it is unfortunate that this aspect of the issue is largely missing from public discussion.
...or the united states and its allies, not only russia, china et al... other than that allowing or orchestrating lapses in security further bolsters a popular conception of need for a permanent security state and all the concessions of inalienable rights it would theoretically, purportedly demand...
It's frustrating listening to this otherwise quality discussion without hearing how Israel helped create Hamas as literal controlled-opposition to the 2-party state solution. I'm fairly certain that what we're now witnessing in Gaza was always Israel's plan.
Not buying this, though it's interesting. Wonder how starvation fits in. Plus re Israel, it's not just security, demographics are key because Israel controls greater Israel anyways & that's a problem, not related to security but re the future of a ''Jewish' State if Jews are demographically fewer than Palestinians.
Isn't it interesting though that you aren't buying it... even though he is saying that it is something WORSE than genocide? I mean its just a fascinating example of how fraught language and communication is in regards to moral outrage.
@JayShapiroDilemmaHost Yeah I agree, I think it's something worse than genocide, but not crimes against humanity or war crimes. I mean a specific word that describes this, because excusing a lot of it behind the banner of 'security' doesn't to me describe what Israel is doing. The systematic destruction of schools, universities hospitals libraries all means of recognizing culture etc, destroying the means to produce food etcThat's something else, more than war crimes, more than crimes against humanity, more than genocide. Plus Gaza is an internationally recognized occupied territory by Israel and therefore Israel has a responsibility to protect civilians under its occupation. This event needs a word all of its own, a word that also encompasses what Israel has done to the Palestinians for decades. A word that at some stage Israelis are going to feel shame over
I couldn't agree more. I'm not entirely sold by Dirk's "permanent security"... that certainly is the "mindset" that leads to the horrors... but the horrors themselves need some kind of name... and I do think it might escape the G word due to the variable of air bombing campaigns
1:33 I just wander do you consider yourself as a j́ because of being religious or do you think it an ethnicity? Because j́ is a religion not an ethnicity. So that lead me to ask do you believe in God? To call yourself so!!
Honestly I call myself ex jew. But for the sake of conversation in this topic I was raised Jewish whatever that means. (Previous video on blue box has more explanation)
1). A Jew is somebody who has a Jewish mother and observes the laws in the Torah. 2) The Nuremberg laws define a Jew based on what's on your birth certificate, including your grandparents's birth certificates. 3) A Zionist is somebody who could be persecuted under 2), and therefore is entitled to refuge in his own state. It's not that hard, really.
Aren't you forgetting that practically ALL original architects of the Z-ï0-ñï-ßt Project were perfect atheists, with Jabotinsky often openly mocking the religious masses? Which, frankly, should render the Project null and void.
@@JayShapiroDilemmaHostYou might be 1). The Rabbinate is not very strict as to full observance of the 614 mitzvahs. Do you observe the holidays? Then I think you're in. Judaism is quite unique in not laying too much emphasis on your belief in the deity, and much more emphasis on your observance of the laws.
I think the problem is with those that have been "programmed" a certain way, with education, family upbringing, religious background and race, for us natives we don't have the issue with Genocide you are struggling with and you shouldn't equate your view/issue as a general view as it's not!
that's potentially true... from the emotional aspect... but from the academic, legal, moral, and political perspective I think the view/issue is insanely important to consider. I would contend the entire world is morally programed with the word "genocide" to a degree...
@@JayShapiroDilemmaHostbut again this is one academic,.legal view, not the view... Your challenges with the word Genocide are not the same as many other authors, academics or lawyers, and finding an author to fit your viewpoint doesn't make it a universal view... Billions of us are very comfortable calling it a Genocide as are academics and lawyers across the world... We simply don't carry the Holocaust baggage and have resisted the programming to accept the belief that it's the Gold Standard when because globally it isn't!
yeah but the point is not about "comfort" with it. The strange thing about the reaction to this conversation and dirk's work is that we are literally saying it is WORSE than genocide... and many people seem to be like "this is soft denialism" it's just a very strange wrinkle in language. but yes i hear your point about my particular upbringing which I know is relavant. Believe me, we're just trying to be accurate, urgent, and decisive in order to stop this madness (by whatever name)
Maybe all this studying and discussing of warcrimes in Worls War Two was part of the modern way to consider another warcrime. Similarly to many Germans commenting on crimes against Jewish citizens and minorities back in 1945, like they didn't belong to the idea, one can read loads of comments by ISR-US-EU people online about how they had to 'learn' what the ISR apartheid regime 'is doing', like they are experiencing a kind of amnesia on what Palestinians have been going through for decades: Murder, no ID, stolen land and dignity, a wall (!), illegal settlements and harassment - permanently! So I'm sorry, I don't buy in this surprise effect, if every educated woman and man knows about the gross violations of human/civil rights since 1948, lists and lists of violations. But by debating to infinity this oh so interesting stuff about extermination for the sake of another group (and let's not forget publishing books on that matter is a lucrative way to progress history as well), everyone of us keeps on watching (the mass deportation, annexation of land, torture of civilians, destruction of the entire health care system and cultural heritage). With this kind of "what shall we do, we were victims", shrugging shoulders ... Like so many in the New World were muting the crimes against humanity in 1940, although they knew about German Arbeitslager --, there are too many out there trying to downplay the entire historical path up to this point. Honestly, I don't care what's the name of the God one sends prayers to, or how they call their own group, if none of them is even able to make a difference to save innocent children in 2024-25. This is what's gonna stay in my mind and heart from now on. The talks for Google clicks and Alphabet, Meta, Fivr and Viber ... and for the greater good of the next generations simply accepting this (...) makes us all equal and partners in this crime. Nobody, scholar or not, have learned a single thing from their ancient scripts or failures in history. None. Humanity was lost long ago, following onwards this sick idea that influential elites can create their own state just for one kind, sacrificing another kind.
You kidding bro? Entire apartment buildings. Entire neighborhoods are being leveled man. You cannot obfuscate the truth. It's literally on our cell phones bro.
Please actually speak to Uyghurs. What america says about what is happening there is not true. People believing is it, is negatively affecting the Uyghur community that has been devastated by US wahabi groups who murdered any Uyghurs who didn't follow their isis ideology
Interesting and perfectly on topic note that Google algorithms automatically post a Wikipedia link to "The Holocaust" based on the automated transcript and conversation... but no links to any other genocides we mentioned.
*Google and many other big Tech are complicit.*
*G...gle and many other big Tech are complicit.*
It appeared on a few other videos as well, and also without reference to any other genocide.
The algorithm isn’t very bright. It can be fooled w1th s1ight w0rd a1terations. Longer posts also seem to slip past. Perhaps it only reads the first sentence or two. If you want to post something controversial, try putting at the end of your post.
@@npgibson69
The origin of the word Algorithm came about when a person watching former Vice President Al Gore dancing, remarked what a wonderful sense of rhythm he had. .
This observation of Al’s dancing talent was verified in person by my dance instructor Mr Dario Pinocchio🤥
I am a 73 year old man and I have spent the better part of my life trying to understand why I seem to always feel a certain sadness in my heart. Then I thought, maybe this had something to do with it. Hopefully this story brings out others like me. In 1963 Zionists came to my home in Casablanca Morocco, to convince my parents to send me and my little sister to Israel without them. I was 12 and my sister 9 when we started our miserable journey to the "Promised land". It destroyed our family and left me and my sister with long lasting scars neither one of us has been able to heal. Being from Morocco made it even more difficult to live in a more racist country than Morocco ever was. We had a very peaceful life as Jews living amongst Muslims in Morocco. We understood each other and helped each other. To this day, the principal advisor to King Mohamed is a Jew. But the Zionists needed boddies to fill Israel and slowly claim more and more land from the Palestinians they kept displacing. The people running Israel are not Jews. True Jews would have helped the Palestinians evolve and share in their fortunes, like we did for centuries in the Arab world. Israel claims it is defending itself? Against whom? The people they have been displacing and opressing for 80 years? Israel, my advice to you, if you want to survive, get rid of the religious zealots who run your government and join the 21st century.
👍
Bless you brother. I am your brother from Iraq
Thank you sorry to hear you had suffered so much .
Please continue to let people know the truth
Thank you for the beautiful comment. I'm sorry for this rift.
I want to add the genocide of native americans, north and south, to the conversation. Tens of millions were destroyed to facillitate the wealth building and land taking by europeans, and was just one more example of human genocidal agressions that continue to this day.
I have a guest lined up soon about this
I agree - selling disease infected blankets to American Local people when Europeans wanted to colonize that land was the intent and the execution of genocide
Are you familiar with Vladimir "Ze'ev" Jabotinsky's 1923 "Iron Wall", in which he brings up the "red indians" analogy to normalize and justify the intended ethnic cleansing of Palestine?
A narration of the "essay" is available on YT, so take a listen if reading is not your thing.
While there are parallels, there are also particulars that are different. I don't take a reductionist approach. These things are common to the history of mankind, in every part of the globe. No ethnic group has blood free hands.
@@stevepearson8112I understand what you are saying, yet I disagree with taking this path of reasoning as it necessarily leads to relativisation. The "argument" that all peoples did it is concocted to allow for the claim that therefore the current one must be ok, too. Not surprisingly, this is one of the zionists' (favourite) talking points to justify their currently intensified albeit a nearly a century long genocide of the Palestinians.
Comparisons are just that - comparisons. They allow us to draw parallels between sufficiently similar phenomena in their general outline, intention or outcome. Comparisons are not (meant to be) exact matches or carbon copies. The particulars necessarily differ, and include things like social circumstances and societal understandings. Without the ability to draw comparisons, all phenomena become one of a kind. And that - leads us nowhere.
''MORE CHILDREN were killed in Gaza Palestine in the FIRST 3 WEEKS of Israel's ongoing bombardment,
than in ALL WAR ZONES WORLDWIDE in the LAST 3 YEARS of 2020, 2021, and 2022 COMBINED.''
- A quote by Professor Norman Finkelstein during a debate with Eli Lake on RUclips.
Syria, Afghanistan, Sudan, China, Kurdish regions of Iraq and Iran, Nigeria, Ethiopia Ukraine - to start with - have between them seen 1 million killed since 2020. To suggest 18000 total deaths in Gaza over 15 months, after taking out militants and normal mortality (like old age and disease) is anywhere close to that number is nonsense. This number includes adults and children. "Professor Finkelstein" is capable of any lie and cannot be trusted.
Syria, Afghanistan, Sudan, China, Kurdish regions of Iraq and Iran, Nigeria. Many more have been killed in EACH of these places and the death and destruction dwarfs what happened in Gaza. "Children" is defined as anyone under 18 and includes many militants aged 16-18, so even the suggestion of children distort how many were militants. That was the main statistic. Remember that Israel warned Gazans to move south before the major bombardment began.
@@vidamjer "Children" is defined as anyone under 18 and includes many militants aged 16-18, so even the suggestion of children distort how many were militants. That was the main statistic. Remember that Israel warned Gazans to move south before the major bombardment began. "Children" is defined as anyone under 18 and includes many militants aged 16-18, so even the suggestion of children distort how many were militants. That was the main statistic. Remember that Israel warned Gazans to move south before the major bombardment began. "Children" is defined as anyone under 18 and includes many militants aged 16-18, so even the suggestion of children distort how many were militants. That was the main statistic. Remember that Israel warned Gazans to move south before the major bombardment began. "Children" is defined as anyone under 18 and includes many militants aged 16-18, so even the suggestion of children distort how many were militants. That was the main statistic. Remember that Israel warned Gazans to move south before the major bombardment began. "Children" is defined as anyone under 18 and includes many militants aged 16-18, so even the suggestion of children distort how many were militants. That was the main statistic. Remember that Israel warned Gazans to move south before the major bombardment began...ad absurdum
@@vidamjerwhy not STFU please :)
Don’t throw attention to elsewhere where it’s actually we aim at the main source of it all
@@vidamjer
Have you anything, any source to back your fantastical claims perhaps, except "israel says so" and "I've been taught this (since birth), and therefore it must be right"?
I didn’t believe this was genocide either because I didn’t see what Israel was doing at first as trying to destroy Palestinians as a group and a culture. The more details I learned and saw - thank you, RUclips - the more I realized yes, Israel was doing that and the U.S. was making it continuingly possible. The more I have seen of the lives of the Palestinians in real time in Gaza the more it is impossible for me not to see genocide - many western countries are joining the U.S. to maintain this happening. Also I am hearing more about what Israelis are saying about the Gazan people. It is impossible for me to watch this and not be appalled by what Israel is doing in Gaza and the West Bank. I’m also reading the work of Norman Finkelstein and watching him speak on RUclips. I feel confident that the world is watching and speaking up - Israel, this will not stand.
It is perhaps as dirk suggests... Something worse than genocide.
@@blackiecortez1668 I've always been very shy about using the "G word" even about Israel-Palestine, a subject I've been extremely passionate about for a long time, but it was Israel's systematic demolition of every single university, library, museum, mosque, church, monument and municipal building in Gaza that really got me over the edge. They're truly attempting to erase these people from existence past, present, and future.
Were you a non-Z-ï0-ñï-ßt Jew you wouldn't have hesitated between belief and doubt in the first place: the future "State" of Izzyrel murdered Rabbi Yaakov Yisroel Dehan, an advocate for peaceful coexistence in the Holy Land, in Jerusalem on 1 July 1924 without as much as batting an eyelid, in cold blood.
Once self-established, it barbarically, cynically assassinated the United Nations' Envoy, Count Folke Bernadotte, on 17 September of 1948 - a true humanitarian who had negotiated the release of more than 30,000 people, some of them Jews, from Nazi concentration camps.
I subscribed to your channel. I will post links to information you may be interested in. Look forward to checking out the videos you have
@@blackiecortez1668 your words are gold … „every time I hear someone say „you all changed my view on Palestine and IsraHell by sharing the truth it‘s a win for humanity and human rights“
This is what the Nazi Holocaust would have been if America, UK, France and Germany were all on the same page and the richest man in the world said: "I'm good with that."
It helped me to understand the difference between Israel, the country, and Judaism, a religion, when I heard rabbis from the group Orthodox Rabbis Against Zionism.
100 people at least have been slaughtered in Gaza just today… starving, wet , freezing cold civilians being bombarded by Israel day and night. Evil doesn’t even begin to describe it anymore….
I've realised that it's utterly misleading to name what is being done by the israelis to the Palestinians as evil. Evil is a religious/theological category, if anything. And as such, it fails on all fronts to incapsulate the idea that genocide is, in (objective) reality, conducted exclusively by humans. Not gods or some otherworldly beings. Genocide is an entirely human affair. And THAT right there is a very scary thought that actual humans must grapple with. Because it necessarily implies that you or I could, in fact, be genociders under a set of specific circumstances. Calling it evil is the easy (the easiest, in fact) way out of this super uncomfortable thought. I get that hardly anyone will grapple with that possibility, and will instantly insist that that is an impossibility. And when confronted with the question why it's an impossibility, almost all of us will say that that is so because genocide is an evil that we humans are incapable of. We would never ever do that, right? And yet, the entirety of human history refutes the very idea...
IDF must have turned into zombies…what is taking place in Gaza is carried out from insanity. This isn’t a temporary period in the life of an IDF person.
I enjoyed your video. It's important subject matter. I'm almost 67 years old and have known for a long time that Hitler was not some unique personification of evil. Sadly, history is littered with them. It's dangerous to believe otherwise.
A state where 65% of the population regard themselves as "secular jews". I'm not sure what devout or fanatically devout catholics would make of people calling themselves secular catholics. Not much I would imagine.
Thank you so much.
I grew up in a family where my father and grandparents migrated from India to Pakistan at the time of separation right in the middle of communal riots and killings. My dad never talked about it his whole life to us. He never wanted my siblings and myself to be raised with prejudice and hatred in us. Throughout his life, he respected people from various ethnicities and race irrespective of their religion and beliefs. His attitude to life helped me not ever feel hatred towards anyone even when the state narrative fuels division and hatred. Killing someone because there is a possibility that person will be committing crime in future is not the world I want to live in. By this logic we should be detaining every criminal for life in the prison as they are more likely to reoffend once release from prison compared to general population (statistics that is replicated across the world).
@@ssheik004 Lord Louis Mountbatten was almost totally responsible for the disaster, because he was longing to get back home to Blighty within 3 months, and he wasn't prepared to allocate the 18 months which was needed to negotiate a unitary deal.
Well, one Theodore N. Kaufman in his 1941 "Germany Must Perish!" in all seriousness advocated sterilisation of ALL Germans capable of breeding (including newborns).
That would have naturally included Sophie Scholl.
dont forget to boycott Saudi Arabia who funds Israel and send their troops to them--they also have a deal in the trillions $$$ with Blackrock which is Israel's military financiers
Humanity itself died in Palestine this last year.
Humanity died the moment Israel was established by the UN in 1948
I think genocide is worse than the fear of talking about genocide. It's really not about the word.
39:45 The ICJ case against Israel was not to decide whether a genocide is taking place or not. It is analogous to a Grand Jury hearing in the USA. The justices had to decide whether, prima face, South Africa had shown that a possible genocide was plausible, and that therefore the trial for genocide may proceed. Nobody should pre-empt the outcome of the trial at this stage.
However, genocides are only proven after the event, so the ICJ has been given powers to order Israel to comply with certain measures, such as to provide humanitarian aid, for example. Unfortunately, Israel has simply ignored these provisions, and so the genocide (possibly) continues unabated.
There is no genocide in Gaza and after 12 months South Africa still has not found enough material to present the 'plausible case' it was ordered to make within 3-4 months. It has not, because all the great legal minds have not found Israel is actually committing genocide. Ireland wants to change the definition of Genocide to make the case.
Also Israel has gone well beyond the compliance ordered by the ICJ, because it was already complying fully when the ICJ presented its decision.
The "insufficient Holocaust education" argument is insane. I attended public school in rural Michigan and there isn't a single subject we dedicated more time to. Not a year from 6th grade onward where we didn't cover it, often for several months straight!
I was brought up in Germany and in 20 years of schooling there wasn't a single week when the Holocaust was not discussed in one way or the other. That makes it even harder to watch the Israelis - of all people - inflict the same sort of horror on another nation.
I am glad you said this. It’s the only historical event taught consistently.
@sabinehahn9774 Not surprisingly, the german compromised collective psyche turned from nazism to zionism under the selective guilt. They do not feel that way towards others and try to play the victims of mysterious nazis and consequences of ww2 like bombing of the cities or expultion of treasonous volksdeutche from the liberated lands.
the protests over the
crimes against humanity & genocide in Palestine & Gaza are a direct result of Holocaust studies.
@@sabinehahn9774this explains why germans turned from nazism to zionism under the selective guilt
Rabbi Yaakov Shapiro is someone I agree with. Judaism is far too theologically complex to support Zionism.
Oh, your guest is brilliant but never looked under the hood of US project in Ukraine. The objective to ""to bleed out Russia" is a quote from Gen. Austin, US Defense Sec. after US told Ukraine to break negotiated settlement for Russia's withdraw achieved in April 2022. RAND's paper on "Overextending Russia" from 2019 outlines entire project together with EU conferences on decolonizing Russia make clear that objective is to break up Russia into smaller and weaker pieces.
Great Summary and you are right … this leads to something much more sinister than Genocide …. it exposes that so few people are truly care if other people were slaughteref and the rest is not capable to intervene, so we are forced to watch it unfold in all it‘s horrible details.
The Scene with Darwisch at the end hit hard … and he is 100% right in every possible way!
Jews were involved in resistance, see Warsaw Ghetto uprising, as one most famous example. My father was in his early teens and in Warsaw at the time. Also, nobody in Russia is calling for exterminations of Ukrainians, and its boarders were established for political reasons and included large Russian, later also Polish and other minorities. Ohhh
Many of us are familiar with the (much maligned in Izzyland) brave leader of the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising (who went on to fight in the general Warsaw Uprising the following year), Dr. Marek Edelman, and his solidarity with the oppressed and resisting Palestinians.
To me, nazies, zionists and jihadists are all the same. They all use religion in order to gain power and wealth. I believe they are to be found in any "Abrahamic " country. However, in Russia the government fight back against this mindset. In the West this mindset is supported by the many governments. The Abrahamic religions are perfect tools for colonization : My God (my belief, my mindset, my policy) is the only God.
@@AgnieszkaNishka In the Warsaw Ghetto uprising there was already a division between Zionists and anti-Zionists (called "The Bund"). Given the enormity of what was happening, the Zionists got all the sympathy, and the Bund got shoved into the background, but I still like listening to the anti-Zionist ballad "Oy, ihr narische tsionitsen". Narisch indeed.
@@AgnieszkaNishka Is "boarders" a Freudian slip? Like Poland, Ukraine has had many boarders throughout history.
Genocide is essentially the appropriation of territory by all means deemed necessary by the appropriating group.
It always seems to involve fighting over land, resources, and culture.
There is always a demonized "other" involved in the script.
The Genocide committer's always feel justified in their actions as well.. a sad situation indeed.
Your trolley problem video and interview with Vijay Prashad are some of the best I have seen on RUclips.
Thanks so much. I absolutely loved the Vijay convo. I hope to have more like it.
I really like your content and how you explain how your minds processes what is happening.
I would love to see you on a more laid back (as much important ) podcast like the bad hasbara one.
Would love to do that. Thanks so much
I agree....
Thank you for FINALLY calling it what it is! We need more practicing jews to go to their synagogue and press then to spread the word so the world will stop conflating this country with a beautiful faith. 😢
"something worse than genocide" whatever that is. It's the unimaginable violation of life and justice.
🤢If you haven't seen this as the "G-word" since Yoav Galant made his speech shortly after Oct 7, I'm not sure you've been paying attention to be quite frank.
I hear you. The funny thing with this word though is if I or Dirk say "it's actually something worse than genocide" somehow people would be like "well at least it's not a genocide". Ya know?
@@JayShapiroDilemmaHost I think the point is not to get tangled in the nomanclature of the word, I've been watching what has been happening in Gaza since I was a teenager with deep unease, I've gotten to know people who have managed to escape it. We all knew when Oct 7th happened the reprisals would be bad, when Yoav Golant made his speech, we knew it would be worse. Also we need to look at the purpose of the G-Word, what is it's end goal? Settler Colonialism. People want to live in safe little enclaves with people that look like them, sound like them. I, like you guys live in a country born from colonialism, South Africa. I can also delve into Apartheid, which I also think Israel is guilty of BTW, and yes many black people who have been to the occupied territories have made comments like "it is worse than Apartheid was", but it meats the broad definition of Apartheid. The goal right now is to end the occupation and the suffering, we can then possibly look back and discuss nomanclature. Maybe we need to add Nukba to the list of crimes against humanity, but here, now, we just need to brutal violence to stop.
@@JayShapiroDilemmaHostRespectfully bro that's what every Zionist who wants to sound reasonable and balanced sounds like. Isn't-rael something that doesn't make sense on a fundamental level and everyone can clearly see it. The Zionist says "oh it's a very complicated issue". You should watch Matt Kennard's interview with a boomer Zionist he basically goes around in circles trying to muddy the waters when it is a clear cut issue.
Dirk is a deep thinker. Thanks for sharing.
He´s a fantastic scholar doing incredibly important work. I wish I had a professor like him back in my uni days.
An interesting conversation. Good information and questions. A couple of points of disagreement - 1) North Korea is simply called a rogue state without any explanation. I am not entirely sure what is the basis for it. 2) China is repeatedly called for the situation in Xinjiang as a case for putative war crimes or genocide without any reference to the facts of the matter, which certainly speak to a totalitarian surveillance state, but nothing that warrants the above charges. In this context, one has to remember that Totalitarian surveillance in China is not limited to Uighurs but primarily concerns the Han majority.
X-Men ? I'll stick with Francesca Albanese.
I wasn't aware we were competing. ⭐
@@JayShapiroDilemmaHost No you! Forgive my lack of culture about Marvel 😉I loved this podcast.
@@JayShapiroDilemmaHost it was a great example, a very smart one actually.
Thank you - very interesting and thought provoking. Defintely an example of legal games and definitions forgetting the purpose and rationale that underpin the reasons the laws exist.
Well stated.
*Great discussion!*
You deleted one of my comments, I'm not sure why. It wasn't inflammatory, it didn't contain any of the offensive words by RUclips standards. I simply pointed out that avoiding the "g" word because it's too emotive for some to handle is all the more reason I think it should be used. Whilst I'm not saying it's exactly like the Holocaust, it matches the gravity of what is happening. Now is the time to challenge the idea that "g" word should only be reserved for the Holocaust. Failing to do that will guarantee that "g" will keep occurring all over the world, whilst we twiddle our thumbs waiting for the number of deaths to be equal to the Holocaust before we do anything. The amount of g intent and dehumanising language used by Israeli officials and the systematic way they are carrying their crimes so brazenly must never be normalised. This is the most well documented g in modern history and to refrain from calling it that is a moral outrage in my view. Without calling it what it is, the countries that facilitate this heinous crime will have nothing to worry about and thier citizens will not be as inclined to put pressure on their governments to stop supplying arms. If "never again" is to mean anything, it must mean "never again" for anyone. It cannot be right that only one set of people get to define g for everyone else. If we don't change this injustice now, we'd be failing future generations. Thank you for a brilliant discussion. ❤🙏❤
I didn't delete anything. Might be the algorithms. Thanks so much for the comment.
Thank you, A. Dirk Moses, I will certainly invest in your book.
It sounds like an incredibly important book to read at a crucial time when we are all asking these questions.
It is! Really important history and analysis throughout.
I don't know if you guys ill mention this, but I just had a thought about the difference between genocide and crimes against humanity in the public conceptual landscape:
Genocide is about the "genes", it's about the specific identity of the people being genocided: that means that people can feel like "it's about me, my identity", the crime is motivated specifically against me, so I'm the indisputable victim, and the others are all the perpetrators.
Wheras "crime against humanity", well, it's not really about me, right, it's about "humanity". And our identification with "humanity" is oddly far weaker than our identification with a genetic or sub group of humanity.
There's something really fundamental about humans that basically, being "human" is the weakest part of our identity.
We didn't put in exactly those terms but that is a really good point. I kind of get to it a bit in the outro with my X Men thing... sort of. But that is a great point really and does allow uninvolved people several generations removed to assign themselves as victims (a strangely appealing habit for humans.... since it socially dismisses/excuses much of our selfish behavior)
@@JayShapiroDilemmaHost You're absolutely right to identify that this is what enables the multigenerational survival of the victimisation idea. It's the genes, that's what gets transmitted.
After all, my "ancestry" is defined precisely by what make me *differerent from other humans*, not what makes me like some of them.
It's an anachronism. Tribalism is rightfully seen as uneducated and repugnant, yet it persists in being normalized, and evolved humans are held hostage to its depredations.
I'm grateful to have learned more about the meanings of these words and some ways that it gets complicated to use them. Good on Google for suggesting it for my feed.
You also removed my comment regarding Hamas not being a terrorized organization. The colonizers are. I also encouraged you to look up the term Gaza ghetto uprising which people use to compare Oct 7th with Warsaw ghetto uprising. Please don't delete my comment.
RUclips probably deleted your comment. That is if if it happened close to immediately aka you never saw it posted. It deletes half of mine. Any time you mix certain words together and especially using names it gets censor-y.
RUclips did that.
Most probably youtube did that
Wasn't me. Probably algorithms of RUclips
RUclips delete many of my comments , it is not always the video producer. If you speak the truth and it goes against the propaganda narrative desired by Western ruling sociopaths , it will be hidden.
Noam Chomsky said in an interview last year, that genocide has become almost so overrated that it should not even be used anymore.
Thank you.
Thank you 🍀
Ray I do appreciate you for your work on this subject though a little more on the academic aspect .
Thanks... its Jay by the way... but Ray works too :)
@ sorry
ha. it's all good. thanks for the eyes and ears!
The best Shapiro
Very good to address these issues but ignored in the case of Gaza the. Absolute limiting/ cutting off of access to water, food and the destruction of health facilities, targeting the limbs of children . That is purposeful and not collateral damage!
That's definitely true. It seems quite difficult to claim a "military objective" through those means... but I think Dirk's warning about the "permanent security" mindset are really important there to consider. Thanks so much for the listen
All you do is talk about the optics when it comes to Israel. Nothing about justice or accountability on the numerous documented warcrimes commited.
How mass civillian slaughter and collective punishment can never be justified.
Even the discussion of genocide is appalling. No discussion of elaborating the UN reports since it has documented clearly of the Gaza genocide.
You should see my other videos. This one is certainly academic in nature rather than what you are looking for... But I have those too. And think they are both crucial.
dont forget to boycott Saudi Arabia who funds Israel and send their troops to them--they also have a deal in the trillions $$$ with Blackrock which is Israel's military financiers
Great visuals. Thanks!
Glad you liked it.
Lord have mercy 😢😢😢. Have you seen Gaza?
Not in person unfortunately... though I have spent time in the West Bank. It is... in fact.... something worse than genocide.
dont forget to boycott Saudi Arabia who funds Israel and send their troops to them--they also have a deal in the trillions $$$ with Blackrock which is Israel's military financiers
As always Mr Shapiro makes you sit back and reflect on matters through various angles without ever loosing the sight of humanity. I appreciate if you do a show on “self defence exercised by state”.
Thanks so much
Your final analysis is so brilliant!
Thanks! X-Men to the rescue!
People make a lot of 1984 or Brave New World analogies, but to be honest, the more times passes, the more I wonder whether Ursula Le Guin is not who nailed the core moral and political framework for our world with "The Ones Who Walk Away from Omelas".
Thank you Jay for this pod cast, I also thought the idea of national security is leading to forever wars, control of populations, land and wealth creating resources.😮
Did all this not begin with development of nation states which now mostly are military states, or attached to strong military powers.
Is it not all a massive attack on humans, enviroments and nature.
Even the popuations and nation states who believe themselves to be wealthy and winners are in the quagmire too, probably in a worse way than the 'losers', because they think they deserve what they have😅, waddling in blood.
Is this need to control nature, land and resources rooted in religions and ethno centric politics?
Very informative conversation and brings to light one of the major things Israel has used to justify their g3nocide and apartheid. For instance the recorded video of Netanyahu, post Oslo, talking about how he used the fact that “military outposts” were not properly defined in the agreements and thus he was able to use that to continue to expand settlements, coupled with the fact that the ones who would be most guilty of genocide given historical events are not members of the ICC/signatories to the Rome Statute (Israel, Russia and the USA) and China/India don’t have good records of this either. Can’t be held accountable for those crimes if they don’t acknowledge these laws even exist.
thought provoking. Thanks.
Until human beings stop labelling themselves as this or that these sort of things will continue to happen. I for some reason have never aligned myself with any group. I think non tribalist people like myself view religious, political and nationalist organisations as bad guy vs bad guy with cognitive dissonance is running the show. Free Palestine.
You are such a great huamn being Jay, it's always a grwst pleasure to hear your kindness, wisdom and humanity 💞
super. vielen dank!
Thank you
Never mind. If the former director has left, Clark students may have a freer environment in which to learn about genocide. Especially, since she pursued trying to have students disciplined, even as their tuition made it possible for her academic research, teaching and administrative work.
Fascinating conversation, thank you both
Good on you O Z, we’re always going to see what’s right and just
I'm now at your conclusion.
You've convinced me that ultimately what matters is not the characterisation as a thing, ie "genocide", but rather to characterise the motivation, the intentional eradication of people in the largest possible numbers, and this being made possible by the dehumanisation of the people in question.
It does seem to fit the genocidal definition to me, but ultimately, you're right, I don't care about the word. What matters are what we accept as factually descriptive of the actions, not its ascription to a category.
Cheers mate. That's also where I am... though obviously I understand screaming genocide (i may continue to do so) in order to alert the world in whatever linguistically imperfect ways we can.
But i am really interested in exploring the security state future of Orwellian surveillance stuff... that seems to be the scariest and most likely future rather than mass murder events.
@@JayShapiroDilemmaHost Yes, Orwell sure cornered a lot of the modern world's core concepts.
But as I say in another comment to this video, which is characteristically very fertile in new thoughts and connections, thank you for that, I think we should revisit The Ones Who Walk Away from Olemas.
The world feels more and more like that to me. Ultimately, the Orwellian machine is what enables the Le Guin moral situation.
ill definitely check it out... im not familiar... but yes i lean more toward huxley in terms of probability of unfolding.
@@JayShapiroDilemmaHost it’s a short story.
Oh yes! of course I know this story. I just revisited it and yes... i think I'll have some future thoughts that mention it. I think of it often. (the worlds not worth winning... etc...)
Highly recommend: "Akiva Orr: the 'Un-Jewish' State", an old recording still available on YT.
Hebrew with English subtitles.
thank you... will check it out.
@@JayShapiroDilemmaHostThere's also a video of Aki Orr, courtesy of Max Blumenthal, which I tried to recommend (removed) to be found embedded in the August 27, 2011 issue of the +972 mag.
"Akiva Orr on J14: 'The longest journey starts with one small step", in English.
It's worse because of the context surrounding it
Ja, det gör skillnad, för alla.
Dirk is wrong about Russia and Ukraine. He needs to read Scott Horton's excruciatingly detailed history in his book PROVOKED
He belongs to petty bourgeoisie, why do you expect, commrade?
I think he does briefly mention of course the role of the west there. But yes it is not primary area of study... Nor mine. I'd love to learn more.
Thank you for sharing 🙏 informative 😊
My pleasure 😊
Thank you for this. Subbed.
Great interview 👍 👏 ❤
Is it worth buying Professor Moses' book? The concept about security seems like it has enormous potential to direct us towards a rigorous theorisation of justice. But if the development of that concept in the book is as minimal as the level of attention given to it in this video, then the book probably doesn't go very far. Has anyone read it and can suggest if security is discussed at proper length and depth?
I would recommend it for sure. It's not overly academic. There is more to discuss with him. I'll probably have him back on.
@@JayShapiroDilemmaHost Thanks for the rec! Would be amazing to have him back on and discuss some specific themes about how to be productive with his concept of security.
If absolute security can be used to justify anything, then we must think the human right security in relative terms; and what options do we have for concepts to think security relative to? What kinds of statecraft and international-legal formations might result from some of these options, and which kinds of identity groups might be emancipated/disenfranchised by different ways of doing it? And of course, which ways of doing it might be relevant to thinking about Palestine?
great questions... yes I really want to get more into "the language of transgression" with him... and I'll try to focus a bit more on turning all the academic thinking into action... it that's possible.
In china I don’t believe they are trying to de-islamasize the Uyghurs because there are mosques and culture vibrancy of Islam there. It’s the extremism that the Chinese are focusing on.
Moslems aren’t allowed to observe Ramadan there. A girl I know was arrested just because her father is an imam. She is not even particularly religious; she really loves rollerblading.
I think you should look closer at that situation
@ love your work and would love resources you could point me to on it. This guest, for example? Everything I’ve found with that perspective is either msm sources or people who lean on msm sources with little evidence and a track record of vilifying china.
Rahima Mahmoot was my guest. I would look at the UN report on it as well a few years back... I'll look for the link.
The genocide standing atop at the hierarchy of war crime legislation is also something that the youtuber BadEmpanada also discusses in his video ruclips.net/video/CDdt9QfC68U/видео.htmlsi=cbwEnL4WQh9V6R9v which uses the Bosnian genocide as an example.
Cool. I will check it out. I've seen some of his stuff... seems like an interesting guy and gets entangled in a lot of ugly social media stuff. I don't envy that.
@ Yeah, also i loved this conversation and it was enlightening.
I’m also from the state of Queensland and yes the racism here is pretty bad especially in the northern half despite having the largest proportion of Aboriginal & Torres Strait islanders of all the states.
Thanks so much. I've spent a little time in Sydney and Brisbane as well... it's definitely a thing
What about the Sinti & Roma? Same if not worse treatment with the goal of extermination for racist reasons?
Absolutely forgotten genocides (or something worse)
Thank you for pointing out Roma people and Sinti. I didn't know about Sinti, but I have over the years repeatedly mentioned Roma people and how they are forgotten.
Even online dictionaries in my country don't mention other than jews when saying what the definition Holocaust is.
@@FenrirFluffyFreyja "The Sinti are a subgroup of Romani people. They are found mostly in Germany, France and Italy and Central Europe" wiki
Specifically here in Germany it has become common to name them both according to their wish since the outdated label that was put on them is not in use anymore
Unfortunately, it seems that Jay did not correctly capture the meaning of the exchange between Leibowitz and his co-panelist (2:10:01)
what did I miss about it?
So many sophisticated academic thoughts and words to say what exactly? For more than 2 hours?
What do you think we said?
I thought the discussion with Dirk and your introduction and reflection were excellent. Plenty to think about. As to your question whether it matters (for the Palestinians) what term we use, I think it does. In general, I think people need a common understanding of crimes that are committed, to (hopefully) prevent them in the future and hold perpetrators accountable (even though this often doesn’t happen). It also important for the victims that it is acknowledged that a recognised crime, like genocide, is committed (I don’t think victims should be able to claim a crime as exclusive to them). In the excellent podcast by “From the periphery”, which you refer to, there is also a segment with Edward Said in which he laments how there is nothing in the world that sustains the Palestinian story … for that reason alone I think, the advisory opinion by the ICJ and an acknowledgment that genocide is committed is important. Maybe a more suitable term/concept will be developed by lawyers and scholars, but for me, the term genocide (in a settler colonial context) is fitting.
thanks so much for the comment... and for checking out the recommendation. i really like the work they do over there at From the Periphery.
The core issue causing immense human suffering is the universal belief that violence and war are appropriate means to resolve conflicts. We must challenge this belief. If we believed in peace, countries would have Departments of Peace and Reconciliation run by psychologists and negotiators, such as the late Marshall Rosenberg, who created the Non-Violent Communications protocol. Instead, we have liars and propagandists who work for cruel and heartless weapon manufacturers and such. May we create societies focused on meeting natural human needs of safety, health, and connection.
@@farazpaw I’ve read some NVC books and got a ton out of them. I love taking the ideas and trying to scale them up sociologically.
@@JayShapiroDilemmaHost The Israel/Palestine situation is horrific and I am proud of people like you who are standing up for human rights. However, there is extreme violence in people's personal lives (including emotional violence) and globally. We really need to work towards a political and economic system which meets people's natural needs (health, safety, freedom, family, etc.) . There is no end to violence without that.
🎯💯
I also checked out the referenced podcast on the Uighur situation; it seems to contain a mélange of real concerns, such as totalitarian surveillance, with much less substantiated claims, such as the disappearance of millions. You might consider it helpful for the sake of a balanced view to invite somebody like Daniel Dumbrill to consider these claims more closely.
Will do. Thanks for listening
Thank you
Jewish voices against this genocide are extremely precious. ThankYou very much. Judaism has Nothing to do with Israeli terrorism, war crimes and ethnic cleansing.
Fascinating
Thank you!
The euorpean view is always worthy of investigation.
I feel badly for students at Clark who are interested in the academic study of genocide.
I was there when Mary was still there and it was a really interesting set of courses... though like I said it was basically all about the specific jewish genocide during WW2... I trust that the department will come out of this situation stronger and with more focus.
The post-modernists must be rubbing their hands with glee that you two are spending all of your intellectual capital on arguing about the meaning of words, instead of the substance of the arguments.
But I suppose that's what gets the research dollars today.
curious how you think "the substance of arguments" is different than "the meaning of words"
I would say that in this case the substance of arguments is directly tied to the twisting and defending of the meaning of words... like Dirk said he (and i) are less concerned with pinning the tail on the donkey (the meaning of words) as we are with figuring out the strategic logic of states (the substance of arguments)
seems you kind of got yourself turned around there. But i appreciate the comment.
@@JayShapiroDilemmaHost Thank-you, a perfect example of a post-modernist reply. Derrida and Foucault would be proud of you.
Can i interest you in a mirror? you have yet to offer a "substance" to anything you've said. cheers.
@JayShapiroDilemmaHost You misunderstand me. I think that your perception that it's not genocide, but rather that the demand for an unattainable absolute safety is the actual problem, with genocide being the inevitable result, is a brilliant insight. My small criticism is that you could have got there quicker if you hadn't have gone via the post-modernist route.
As with heartbeats during our lifetime, we have a limited number of brain cycles, and we shouldn't spend too many of them arguing about the meaning of words.
There is literally nothing postmodernist about this route. It seems you yourself may be looking for nails with your hobby hammers.
2:04:21 I appreciate you drawing this analogy. I'm a boomer. But may I recommend Attack on titans (anime or manga either is fine) is a far better parallel to this G issue. That's my take anyways. But u be the judge.🤷🏻♀️ Around March I saw some comments about it from others too. Really fleshed out beautiful story writing like magneto's backstory 😄
Also I do agree comic issues that era does have many deep layers of meaning which I rly loved. 😊 If u haven't watched any anime I think you will be pleasantly surprised with this one.
I will! Thank you!
Do others who are marginalized, murdered, starved…deserve their own country? At the expense of the lives of others? Apartheid and settler colonialism is acceptable for some? Does this include descendants of slaves? Do indigenous/Native Americans/First Nations or Africans who were here before settlers have the right to defend themselves and retake the land they occupied more recently than Israelis in Palestine who are said to “have the right to defend themselves?” How does this make sense?
At the origin of every genocide, there dehumanization. At the origin of dehumanization, there is a supremacist racist state of mind. At the origin of supremacism there is a belief that technical advancement is the ultimate proof of superiority.
I absolutely love this comment. It is perfect... and it is very much aligned with the thesis of the book I am currently writing... about 2 years away from shelves probably (working title is Judging History). You nailed it.
Hesitation to recognise that the people of Gaza are being ethnically cleansed, ie there is a GENOCIDE, is a hard one to make excuses for. I wonder how many people years ago had excuses for not recognising the holocaust. I'm not impressed with your self centred argument while children are being starved and murdered.
That wasn't my take-away listening to the entire 135 minutes of introduction, dialogue, concuding reflection - see for instance 2:12:00 onwards > 'worse than'.
precisely... its just such an interesting place to be linguistically for me to say it's WORSE than genocide... and to receive skepitcal responses from people being like "but its a genocide!".... i mean I agree with dirk pretty much throughout. and I hope the legal structures at the ICJ do expand their reading in order to label this as a genocide... but that's like 3 years down the line.
Ty
Important video; but I found it frustrating because it buried the lede. The core idea-that the seemingly legitimate pursuit of total security can lead to horrors that, even if they do not fit the definition of “genocide,“ are every bit as horrific and evil-is essential to making sense of the situation in Gaza. And this was the first mention of this idea that I have come across in the media, so I was willing to spend 2+ hours on it. But really, only perhaps 30 minutes were spent on it; and sorry to say, but it was not developed as fully as it needs to be; and only a small amount of the remaining time was required for context. No surprise, then, that none of the first several comments referred to this important idea.
Sorry to be a complainer when you’ve done more to promote this idea than I have! But it is unfortunate that this aspect of the issue is largely missing from public discussion.
...or the united states and its allies, not only russia, china et al... other than that allowing or orchestrating lapses in security further bolsters a popular conception of need for a permanent security state and all the concessions
of inalienable rights it would theoretically, purportedly demand...
It's frustrating listening to this otherwise quality discussion without hearing how Israel helped create Hamas as literal controlled-opposition to the 2-party state solution. I'm fairly certain that what we're now witnessing in Gaza was always Israel's plan.
I mention it very briefly but I hear you
Maybe they didn't want to say his surname because it brings to mind the great Miko Peled
Also interviewed by me…
It was absurd for them to pretend that it was some big safety measure to hide his name… 😂
WHERE IS THE WORLD ? WHERE IS THE WORLD???!!!!!!!
Israel is doing it right now, a continuation of the last 75 years, to speak of something so long ago, with this going on, is pretty low class IMO
Yeaaaaah, this is soft denialism.
strange when one says "it's WORSE than genocide" people think... "denialism" language is strange.
Cucumbers are fruit, melon family not vegetables. Tomatoes are fruit but considered veg when cooked.
Ha. You know I had that thought too!
@JayShapiroDilemmaHost good video. Watched it all 🕊
Not buying this, though it's interesting. Wonder how starvation fits in.
Plus re Israel, it's not just security, demographics are key because Israel controls greater Israel anyways & that's a problem, not related to security but re the future of a ''Jewish' State if Jews are demographically fewer than Palestinians.
Isn't it interesting though that you aren't buying it... even though he is saying that it is something WORSE than genocide? I mean its just a fascinating example of how fraught language and communication is in regards to moral outrage.
@JayShapiroDilemmaHost
Yeah I agree, I think it's something worse than genocide, but not crimes against humanity or war crimes.
I mean a specific word that describes this, because excusing a lot of it behind the banner of 'security' doesn't to me describe what Israel is doing. The systematic destruction of schools, universities hospitals libraries all means of recognizing culture etc, destroying the means to produce food etcThat's something else, more than war crimes, more than crimes against humanity, more than genocide.
Plus Gaza is an internationally recognized occupied territory by Israel and therefore Israel has a responsibility to protect civilians under its occupation.
This event needs a word all of its own, a word that also encompasses what Israel has done to the Palestinians for decades.
A word that at some stage Israelis are going to feel shame over
@JayShapiroDilemmaHost
It needs its own word, re what's happening, none of the words describe it
I couldn't agree more. I'm not entirely sold by Dirk's "permanent security"... that certainly is the "mindset" that leads to the horrors... but the horrors themselves need some kind of name... and I do think it might escape the G word due to the variable of air bombing campaigns
@@JayShapiroDilemmaHost
Maybe the Palestinians should pick a word and legal definition
Leibowitz dark prophecy is unfolding
sadly yes... or worse
@JayShapiroDilemmaHost thank you so much for this amazing interview and video!
1:33 I just wander do you consider yourself as a j́ because of being religious or do you think it an ethnicity?
Because j́ is a religion not an ethnicity.
So that lead me to ask do you believe in God? To call yourself so!!
Honestly I call myself ex jew. But for the sake of conversation in this topic I was raised Jewish whatever that means. (Previous video on blue box has more explanation)
1). A Jew is somebody who has a Jewish mother and observes the laws in the Torah.
2) The Nuremberg laws define a Jew based on what's on your birth certificate, including your grandparents's birth certificates.
3) A Zionist is somebody who could be persecuted under 2), and therefore is entitled to refuge in his own state.
It's not that hard, really.
Okay so I'm not 1 and probably most people who qualify as 2 don't qualify as 1 either.
Aren't you forgetting that practically ALL original architects of the Z-ï0-ñï-ßt Project were perfect atheists, with Jabotinsky often openly mocking the religious masses?
Which, frankly, should render the Project null and void.
@@JayShapiroDilemmaHostYou might be 1). The Rabbinate is not very strict as to full observance of the 614 mitzvahs. Do you observe the holidays? Then I think you're in. Judaism is quite unique in not laying too much emphasis on your belief in the deity, and much more emphasis on your observance of the laws.
I think the problem is with those that have been "programmed" a certain way, with education, family upbringing, religious background and race, for us natives we don't have the issue with Genocide you are struggling with and you shouldn't equate your view/issue as a general view as it's not!
that's potentially true... from the emotional aspect... but from the academic, legal, moral, and political perspective I think the view/issue is insanely important to consider.
I would contend the entire world is morally programed with the word "genocide" to a degree...
@@JayShapiroDilemmaHostbut again this is one academic,.legal view, not the view... Your challenges with the word Genocide are not the same as many other authors, academics or lawyers, and finding an author to fit your viewpoint doesn't make it a universal view... Billions of us are very comfortable calling it a Genocide as are academics and lawyers across the world... We simply don't carry the Holocaust baggage and have resisted the programming to accept the belief that it's the Gold Standard when because globally it isn't!
yeah but the point is not about "comfort" with it. The strange thing about the reaction to this conversation and dirk's work is that we are literally saying it is WORSE than genocide... and many people seem to be like "this is soft denialism" it's just a very strange wrinkle in language.
but yes i hear your point about my particular upbringing which I know is relavant. Believe me, we're just trying to be accurate, urgent, and decisive in order to stop this madness (by whatever name)
Maybe all this studying and discussing of warcrimes in Worls War Two was part of the modern way to consider another warcrime. Similarly to many Germans commenting on crimes against Jewish citizens and minorities back in 1945, like they didn't belong to the idea, one can read loads of comments by ISR-US-EU people online about how they had to 'learn' what the ISR apartheid regime 'is doing', like they are experiencing a kind of amnesia on what Palestinians have been going through for decades: Murder, no ID, stolen land and dignity, a wall (!), illegal settlements and harassment - permanently! So I'm sorry, I don't buy in this surprise effect, if every educated woman and man knows about the gross violations of human/civil rights since 1948, lists and lists of violations. But by debating to infinity this oh so interesting stuff about extermination for the sake of another group (and let's not forget publishing books on that matter is a lucrative way to progress history as well), everyone of us keeps on watching (the mass deportation, annexation of land, torture of civilians, destruction of the entire health care system and cultural heritage). With this kind of "what shall we do, we were victims", shrugging shoulders ...
Like so many in the New World were muting the crimes against humanity in 1940, although they knew about German Arbeitslager --, there are too many out there trying to downplay the entire historical path up to this point. Honestly, I don't care what's the name of the God one sends prayers to, or how they call their own group, if none of them is even able to make a difference to save innocent children in 2024-25. This is what's gonna stay in my mind and heart from now on. The talks for Google clicks and Alphabet, Meta, Fivr and Viber ... and for the greater good of the next generations simply accepting this (...) makes us all equal and partners in this crime. Nobody, scholar or not, have learned a single thing from their ancient scripts or failures in history. None. Humanity was lost long ago, following onwards this sick idea that influential elites can create their own state just for one kind, sacrificing another kind.
and the global west population goes:
ruclips.net/video/h242eDB84zY/видео.htmlsi=zblDuhctj9RpLDyM
You kidding bro? Entire apartment buildings. Entire neighborhoods are being leveled man. You cannot obfuscate the truth. It's literally on our cell phones bro.
@@ahmedshahab4105 so ... Yeah. Im saying It's worse than genocide. What's the issue bro? Language is so strange... WORSE
@JayShapiroDilemmaHost hmmm perhaps I didn't understand correctly 🤔
Take a look at congo, Namibia, etc instead of only juice. It the ongoing Palestinian Holocaust
Please actually speak to Uyghurs. What america says about what is happening there is not true. People believing is it, is negatively affecting the Uyghur community that has been devastated by US wahabi groups who murdered any Uyghurs who didn't follow their isis ideology