What Happened to the Wrong Flag of Vatican City?
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- Опубликовано: 16 май 2024
- Vatican City is the smallest state on earth in both size and population. Situated as an enclave in the city of Rome, Italy, the Vatican's flag is well-represented compared to the nation's size. But this has not always been done correctly...
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This might seem trivial at first glance, but these things make a difference. I worked for many years as a graphic artist for a multinational company, and I often encountered this sort of lackadaisical attitude to what was correct, in flags and in organizational symbolism in general. It was sometimes really frustrating getting something right in an image that I knew would be seen widely. I cared a lot, even though it often seemed like no one else did.
It is enough that one person spots it and spread awareness of the mistake.
There a groups on every kind of social media that is only about stupid errors on signs and other widely spread print and media.
And as we can see down in the comments to this video (just the second as I write this, but that will change) people are keen to point out mistakes here as well.
Which is good, as long as they are right.
@@HENN3H If you get these things wrong, you look stupid. Simple as that.
Please consider your dedication appreciated. 🫡
Really seems like an artistic opinion, which you are within your rights as a creator to have. Has absolutely no bearing on a design being "right".
@@mike_nolan Nike Nollen, that is my "artistic opinion" of how your name is spelled. I must be right then, according to you?
A semantic correction: the Lateran Councils are a variety of ecumenical councils and synods held over centuries at or near the Lateran papal palace. The Lateran Treaty or pact was the concordat between the papacy and Mussolini's government. Thank you for your excellent work.
Ecumenical? yeah sure
@@apmoy70 in the catholic sense of the word, being of the universal Catholic Church in the Middle Ages.
After the schism the Roman Catholic Church is no longer "The universal" church, what the Roman Catholics call the LOCAL synods in the 12th century is irrelevant to the One, Holy, Catholic & Apostolic Church (which isn't the Schismatic Papal one)@@ianpatterson6552
The tiara (which is no longer used) has no "base": the offending element is the interior lining which according to this video is therefore not red but white. The red cord with tassels normally signifies the office of Cardinal.
i thought that it might be red velvet or something similar but yeah- white for him, he’d never wear red again!
The coat of arms of the holy see has the red interior, while the coat of arms of Vatican city has the white interior
Also, it appears to me that there is equal white-space around the papal crest in the correct version (white lining), whereas the incorrect version (red lining) has more white-space on the left and right than on the top and bottom.
Pope John XXIII sold the tiara. It was bought by American Catholics and resides in the National Basilica.
3:28 The Pope is the Vicar of Christ not Saint Peters vicar.
Thank you! Hilbert couldn’t even get the flag right at the end.
well he isn't really the vicar of either but we might as well assign him the correct pretension. 😅
@@Puritan1985 Jesus founded a Church, Matthew 16:18-19, and He said you must hear it, Matthew 18:17.
@@Puritan1985 tell that to St Petrvs when you meet him
@@echoes5476 not trying to hate but when there was 3 popes at the same time were they all the vicar of christ?
At 6:40 you say the lining of the crown is supposed to be red instead if white, but at the end you say it's supposed to be white not red.
I think it's actually ambiguous.
he says "...has been made red rather than white, which is actually how it's meant to be..."
which could mean _either_ that red or white is correct
in any case, it could have been said better, but at least it's clarified later
I heard that as well.
It's a mistake. The inside lining of actual physical tiaras is white, thus how it's represented in the flag. White is the papal color, while red or purple, while appropriate, are related more strongly with bishops and cardinals. The mistake is an easy one to make obviously. Pope Benedict was gifted one and it was lined white. Maybe some in the past where lined red...
Correction, the keys do not have the meaning of a gatekeeper. The minister of a king that would take care of the affairs of state while the king was away would for symbolic reasons keep the keys of the palace, that's what this is supposed to symbolize, as the Pope is the Vicar of Christ, taking care of his flock while he is not present.
Did you switch out the flags at the end? 08:25? Didnt you say at 6:40 that its supposed to be red?
The flag chaos never ends
@@RealUlrichLelandespecially as he used the newest flag made because of the controversy, not the flag that was actually used when the controversy hit a year ago 🤣
Thank you very much. It's such a relief to find a RUclips channel that isn't dumbed down and presents excellent content without distracting background music or any of the other showbiz nonsense. Keep up the good work.
Vexicollogical Horrors beyond Human Comprehension
In some pictures of the Vatican flag, since Pope Francis became Pope, the Tiara is replaced by a Mitre.
Bingo. None of this was an accident.
A stylised mitre appears on the Pope’s coat of arms, but the tiara remains on the arms of the Holy See.
A few small symbolic corrections.
* The Pope is actually the Vicar of Christ, not the Vicar of Saint Peter. Vicar meaning "someone to leave in charge while you are away". So the Pope's role spiritually is to lead the flock until the Second Coming. Pope Francis was the successor to Saint Peter, who was the first Vicar of Christ.
* The red rope actually alludes to the phrase "to bind and to lose" in the Bible. It is used to refer to earthly vicars, but Jesus used those words when talking to Saint Peter. The best equivelant in English is "What's mine is yours".
* The silver and gold actually, to a lesser extent, applies to the background too. It's not "yellow and white" so much as "silver and gold". It's just silver and gold are very expensive to make cloth out of (France used to save a white flag but not to surrender. The idea was if the Church was gold, France was silver)
The Pope claims that Saint Paul was the first Pope.
Jesus said to Saint Paul: I will give you the keys of heaven.
@@jensschroder8214 You are thinking of Peter. Paul was once Saul, a great persecutor of the Church. He was NOT Pope
I have a flag book and the flag there is a mix of the two: it has the tiara white inside, but the crosses are Greek crosses and not Latin crosses and the top part of the keys is 3D and the lower part is 2D that is weirdly inconsistent! Where that flag came from? The "corrected version" in Wikipedia is the one you said is wrong just with the red inside the tiara removed just like the one in the book. I mean there are more differences: the wrong flag has a 3D inconsistent design of the keys (a complete heraldic sin) and has Latin crosses and not Greek crosses. Maybe someone said, just remove the red thinghy to correct the flag? Nope. The Wikipedia shows the TWO flags with the white inside the tiara (but in the article for the flag not for Vatican): it says it the one with Latin crosses and the inconsistent 3D keys was used from 2021 to 2023 and the one with the consistent 3D keys and Greek (or maybe Malta the design is not clear) crosses is the one used today. I checked Vatican official design an it matches the one you said is correct and the old and new documents are available. So the story is a little more complicated: the book was right for the moment it was published. Yeah I have OCD, sue me. There is an inconsistency in Wikipedia on the List of Papal Flags article it says the older flag was used from 2000 and not 2001 as the article of Vatican Flag. And the proportion was 1:1 but this was amended by other entity in 2010...but the available designs this is not noticeable, maybe is a concession to the design of the flag. And to end this the flags for sale are the one used from 2000 to May 2023. You cant find the new one anywhere, maybe just after the stocks end. Again: OCD.
thank you for your clarification, although it is a bit hard to follow for me.
Any variation of a flag or shield is valid as long the variation conforms to the "blazon", the written description that follows a certain formal grammar and vocabulary.
Now, according to the Rule of Tincture, colour cannot be coated atop colour and metal cannot be coated atop metal. Yellow and White (i.e. Or and Argent) are both metals, and thus could not be blazoned upon the Argent fly of the flag. Thus "two keys in saltire Or and Argent" must be blazoned "two keys in saltire proper". Proper just means "painted in natural colours" or "realistic".
The tiara, likewise, is blazoned "proper", thus you can have variations in the colouring and both are valid. Probably the original coated a red lining to more heraldically coat the Argent fly. But whether red or white, it doesn't matter because it's blazoned "proper".
For an illustrative example, let's use the Coat of Arms of Canada. At the time of armory, Canada was still under the College of Arms in England, without its own Canadian Heraldic Authority. In the base tier in fess, the arms bear three maple leaves conjoined at the stem. Canada wanted red leaves. The College was more partial to green. As a compromise the King of Arms blazoned the leaves as "proper", thus allowing either. Older coats have the green leaves as you find, and newer coats have the red leaves. Some newer coats, still, they have gold stems within the red leaves. All of these variations are valid as they conform to the blazon.
There is an error, probably stemming from graphic design, that treats flags, badges, and shields, like logos, expecting everything to be "on model". No, the armorial arts are more conceptual than that, the real work is the blazon not the iteration of the blazon, and thus both flags are valid.
The problem is that for a long time the Vatican left it unclear what the flag should look like.
In some cases, the false flag was used by mistake by the Vatican itself.
Or the Vatican didn't think it was important.
I really loved the video but the explanation is really drawn out and tedious, this could have been explained in 3-4 minutes instead of 10.
the pope isn't "St. Peter's Vicar" he doesn't represent him like that. He is through the tracable ordination of every other pope the direct ecclesiastical successor of the St Peter. all of the Authority Peter possessed as the first Pope is maintained by the current one. now as the supreme leader of the Catholic and apostolic church, he is at times known as the Vicar of Christ because when he speaks ex-Cathedra he is divinely inspired.
I know that actually Vatican City has 2 flag different in shape: one square and one rectangular.
Yes. Kind of. I think I heard that one is the flag of Vatican City, and the other is the flag of the Holy See, which is not exactly the same thing. Is this correct? Anyone?
1:27 what is that language on the background?
One aspect of "incorrect" display is sometimes used to alert others of the Nation to problems aboard.
Hi HiIbert, how come you say vexiological/vexiology? instead of vexiLLology/ical/ists? Are both ways correct, are the first set of Ls meant to be silent?
I think he was just misspoke
My go to sources for learning about European history are RUclips videos and Sabaton records
Isnt the flag supposed to be square?
I saw a video the other day from another channel about wikipedia getting flags wrong, including this specific one
I see that the key on top of the other also changes.
Today learned that the Papal States had a merchant sea arm. Never occurred to me before. Assumed it would have been land based.
spanned the middle of the peninsula so had sea access on both sides once that pesky Venetian Republic lost land…
Hadn’t thought of that either. Venice lasted as an entity till Napoleon came.
The red cords are also tied differently !
The Vatican is so interesting
Very interesting, i like the simple white yellow design
They thought it looks cooler
And indeed, when I google "Vatican", the flag google presents is the wrong flag! (it shows with red), though clicking on said flag does link to the wikipedia page with the (now correct) flag.
Dude its funny when a small mistakes happens, but leaves a big effect in the world. i love drama
The 1929 meeting with the Italian state was not called the Lateran Council. The Lateran Council was an Ecumenical Council to determine certain theological doctrine that had taken place centuries prior to this. What you are referring to is the Lateran Pact.
Looking at when Pope St John Paul II visited the US in 1995 the Flag shows a red lining for the Triple Tiara. The video states both as correct. Official offices have displayed the flag with a red lining.
The Holy See shows the current flag with no visible lining at all.
Also the Pope is the Vicar of Christ on Earth--not the Vicar of St Peter.
One thing I'm missing here, is the source of the error, which seems to be, that the coat of arms of vatican city used to have a tiara with a red inside, until 2023, which was mistakenly applied to the flag.
It’s an important difference as the “Triple Tiara” is not placed on a Cardinal’s head with his scarlet zucchetto underneath but the elected Pope’s head with his white zucchetto underneath.
funny enough, you used the new flag and not the previous flag that was in use when the red on the tiara sparked the outrage! the previous flag was exactly the same as the incorrect one, just with the red in the tiara…the new one has different keys and the cord wrapping around the keys having gold rings on it
It got the hd update
A toothpick changes everything
Hello Hilbert. As always unraveling the key points stringing together flag history into a holy order without pontificating on discrepancies.
The flag violates a fundamental principle of heraldry that two metals, gold (or) and silver (argent) should not be in contact.
It's a good and entertaining video, and the minor nature of it is not a detriment.
When you say a flag is “yellow and white”, it’s good to mention that those colors on a flag represent gold and silver.
That’s what the Vatican flag represents, along with the keys to heaven.
Hey, Fun with flags really exists!!!
Why does it necessitate that a vexiologist found the mistake?
Fun with flags !
The flag looks similar
*vexiLology
That's 3 of us now.
what about the ropes? This video just focuses on the tiara base, but skips the rest, a wasted opportunity and makes it an incomplete video imo, and therefor frustrating.
edit: I think with all the clarifications and mistakes spotted in the comments, I think this video needs a do over. I mean if you make a video about mistakes and changes, better get it right.
Nice talking with you on Minisiege, Hilbert you nerd.
Is the shading on the keys also meant to be different?
The keys changed in 2023 to the ones with the 3D bases to be more consistent with the upper part being 3D. And the band changed from Latin crosses to Greek (or Maltese the I can tell because they are not straight because the band is folding) . Wikipedia describes the differences and has links to the official documents from 2021 to 32023 and the new documents from 2023 and I have a book pré 2023 that has the other design of the keys and band but white tiara interior.
interesting, I never even knew the Vatican had a wrong flag
Wonder what was the older Flags
800 - 850 Carolingian Empire Flag
850 - 1000 White banner with a yellow cross
1000 - 1300s White flag with Saint Peter and Saint Paul
1300s - 1510s Banner of Pope Boniface VIII
1510s - 1523 Banner of Pope Leo X
1523 - 1540s Flag used by papal military strategist Jacopo Pesaro
1540s - 1669 Banner of Pope Paul III
1669-1771 red Flag with Christ on the cross, St Peter and St Paul
1770s - 1870 Yellow and white banner no coat of arms
Roman Republic (1798-1799) Flag that looks like France but Black White Red
French Empire Flag 1809-1814
Roman Republic (1849-1850) Italy Flag with Dio e Popolo in the Middle
Papal States Flag for Papal Merchant Ships 1825-1870
Vatican City
Red is the color of Cardinals. The Hily Father's color is White
"Call no man your father except He who is in Heaven." Ditto "Holy".
3:20
Correction: The Pope is the Vicar of Christ, not of St. Peter. The Pope is the successor of St. Peter.
I have the “fake” Vatican flag, but I ain’t getting rid of it!
Well. My whole life is a joke.
1:28 wtf was that in the background
The mistake was caught in 2022, still on time for the Armageddom.
The same with the flag of egypt
Vatican City was never the capital of the Papal States. That was Rome itself. (The Vatican was across the Tiber from the old walled city.) While the Apostolic Palace at the Vatican was a papal palace, it was not used by the popes as their center of governance over the Papal States. They ruled from the Lateran Palace and then from the Quirinal Palace when in Rome. (After the return from Avignon, the pope initially resided in other palaces in Rome.) The Apostolic Palace's use as the primary papal residence came after the city of Rome was occupied by the Kingdom of Italy in 1870.
Flag of the Vatican City or the Holy See?
Beats Sheldon's 'Fun with Flags' even with Amy and Wil at the helm.😂
Edited cause I know in areas of international diplomacy this matters as it's a person's as well as a community's form of identity.
But with an actual audience...
@@hejichs you know that's against the room mate agreement!😚
It is not Wikipedia's only mistake with flags. For years it carried a "Flag of Austria-Hungary" that did not exist. Austria and Hungary had their own flags. There was no one flag for the empire. The flag Wikipedia used for the empire was the merchants' flag. Its mistake was even copied into history books.
A problem with Wikipedia is that in the event of disputes decisions are taken by votes, so by opinions, not objective provable facts. Often evidence based on objective provable facts would be voted against by people whose opinions were factually wrong. A lot of experts ended up quitting it when they got fed up having accurate information, verified by archives and documents, which they had posted deleted because people who had never checked provable sources preferred a false inaccurate claim as it corresponded with their own inaccurate unevidenced opinion. I quit the site when something that mentioned me had a provably wrong statement as the location of something, and despite provable evidence being provided, a handful of people repeatedly voted to keep the wrong 'fact' in the article. If they had simply consulted a map they would realise their 'fact' is wrong.
An 'encyclopaedia' that bases decisions on votes without referencing definitive facts, is worthless as s source.
There also a gold cap on the tassels in the fake flag. The fake flag seems to be better in my opinion
he used the wrong flag images, the flag he used is the new 2023 version adopted after the controversy…the previous one was identical including the gold rings on the cord and silver and gold inlays on the keys
Google Vatican flag emoji is wrong. 🇻🇦
I thought is should be square...
Perhaps a recognition that Francis was not a legitimate pope?
Vexillological not Vexelogical.
The devil IS in the details.
The Pope is the Vicar of Christ not of Saint Peter , although he is a successor of Saint Peter.
FFS
I support Celtic and got the wrong Papal flag tattooed on my leg
Is this Sheldon?
Can't believe the Jesuits didnt catch it
You skipped the Italian invasion of the papal states and the problem of Italian nationalism during the 19th century. That is important to understand the letrran accords.
A Nation is NOT the same as a sovereign country. Especially the Vatican!! But i guess americans cant really use the real definition
It’s so wrong 😭😭😭
🇻🇦
The flag is wrong because the fact is that it have two metals as background
It's not wrong, but it breaks heraldic rules that say two metals mustn't be adjacent, and indeed that two colours mustn't either. This is because they tend to merge when seen at a distance - so making it difficult to see whose flag it is. If there are two adjacent colours or metals, then they can be separated by a fimbriation between them, so a narrow band of colour between the gold and silver (yellow and white), say red, could be added to fulfil heraldic rules.
Breaking the heraldic rules is meant to symbolize the Lord's Vicar not being subject to Earthly rules.
And the black gold white Russian flag?
The rule is that one Metal shouldn't be a Charge on another. Likewise a Tincture or a Fur. In this case the Metals are Dimidiated, and the Device is Proper, not Metal.
But there have always been exceptions to the rule, eg Jerusalem.
Haha Wikipedia was wrong about something? Hard to believe (not).
❤
The Freedom Flag 🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈 Love is gay!!!
3:28 There is no such thing as "st. Peter's Vicar" you made it straight up, Pope's title is "Jesus's Vicat". As it was the only fact I could've confirmed by myself I thikn the rest of video is lie too.
"Thumb down", "don't show this channel again".
This video is such a jumbled mess. Maybe someone should consult an authoritative source, such as Noonan’s “The Church Visible”?
_Note:_ *_vexillology_* */vɛk səˈlɒl ə dʒi/* and *_vexillologist_* */vɛk səˈlɒl ə dʒɪst/* rather than "vexiology" and "vexiologist"
That's 4 of us now.
You missed "cockadd" vs "cockade".
Btw [veks-ill-OLLO-jee]. It's I and O not A and AA.