Really pleased Cameron explained volumetric and gravimetric confusion many people encounter when comparing new battery technologies. Looks like this company management is transparent and knowledgeable.
Why start with smart watches and smart phones? Well, you can make 20000 smart watch batteries with the amount of battery material that goes into a single EV battery pack, so that's a pretty compelling reason if you're just starting to ramp your production lines.
There are lots of people claiming their battery design is the next big thing. Elon said it best, bring your battery to Tesla, and if it is better than their existing products, they will pay up.
Agreed, we can pick through the BS from real world product somewhat reliably, but the proof is in the pudding, and that happens when there's a product on the table. One speculative play I'm invested in though, is GMG. Been covered on this page a few times
@@TecnamTwin I don't even know where to begin. Other car companies have been around for much longer than Tesla. They can't just stop making non ev vehicles and just start making all EV's. They can make money while they put out their ev's. Or you can be like Toyota and own the hybrid game then release your EV's as the market is ready for them. Toyota or anyone else would be so stupid to just stop production of everything and just make EV's. BTW that GR Corolla they made is going to be very very popular because they are making it at the perfect time. Every one is going electric and Toyota is still putting out cool cars that people won't be able to buy in a few years. Tesla can't do that and make a car for enthusiasts while they work on their future EV's. Also, most people don't want EV's because we don't have the infrastructure to charge these things. They also charge slow as fuck. Batteries won't catch up until 2025 which is when other auto makers will have to make only EV's. It's funny, Tesla was the first and thought they'd change everything and make other auto makers switch to electric and no one even cared lol. They just said yea we will keep doing what we do and switch when we have to.
Interesting. Seems like it would be difficult to scale. Also "absolute value volumetric equivalent" sounds like a marketing term. It's probably a good design for miniature electronics. Not so sure about EV scale packs. Hope I'm wrong.
They can absolutely scale for small consumer based electronics, it is happening now. I'm expecting continued innovation and breakthroughs regarding laser patterning from Enovix. This will continue to increase efficiency and aid in scaling for EV. Enovix needs to be a continued leader in the technology for their lasers. Manuel Leonardo and his team from IPG Photonics will help lead this. Their PR from 11/1 regarding the MOU with IPG hints at this.
What a great interview! I'm very glad to have invested in this company. It would be amazing if you could connect again with a follow up, after Fab 2 is up and running.
It was interesting to see T. J. Rogers. He was sort of a hero to Reason magazine back in the Virginia Postrel days when he was a maverick computer chip maker.
Thanks Jon. How well would this technology work with a Sodium-based cell? There could be significant cost advantages if Na could be used successfully. There is also a point where low cost and recyclability become more important than ultimate cycle life, mass and energy density, especially in bulk storage applications. Also, an easily swappable battery at end of life has its advantages in automotive installations, if costs can be kept low enough.
Watched the enovix video here and when he held up the battery for the glasses I said hey that’s for the Apple smart glasses that’s suppose to be announced in early 2023. Might be a great investment opportunity as it haven’t been announced yet.
Gravimetric is important because ultimately the energy efficiency of the EV is a function of many things but weight is a big factor. Efficiency will be more important when comparing EVs to each other, just like they were for ICE vehicles. Right now EVs are competing against ICE mainly so weight is not a big factor to short sighted manufacturers.
20:06 So he is saying their batteries have a high internal resistance? Isn't low internal resistance better? I found on google: "A battery with low internal resistance delivers high current on demand. High resistance causes the battery to heat up and the voltage to drop. The equipment cuts off, leaving energy behind. Lead acid has a very low internal resistance and the battery responds well to high current bursts that last for a few seconds."
Cool cell design....but seems very slow and complicated manufacturing process. Inter-laying thin filaments of anode, cathode (&separator) and making connection to each seems like a very delicate, slow, complex and expensive process....compared to 2170/4680 that just rolls up a long tape of 1 strip of anode and 1 strip of cathode (&separator). No wonder that the Enovix is supplying the cells to small electronic devices...in which cell size is a significant factor while cell cost is just a tiny fraction of the overall cost. I totally doubt Enovix will be able to scale volume production of this design to go into EVs....and not to mention offer it at an attractive price point.
We have done this in semiconductors with FinFET and that adds a ton of steps, but costs will go down when a turnkey manufacturing solution comes out. Traditional wrapped batteries have production lines you can order from Bosch etc, but not this.
@@henryzhang7873 Costs might come down a little with volume, but will unlikely be able to compete with the good-old jelly-roll spooling. It's definitely a great advantage in premium portable electronics like smartwatches, 'google' glass etc where even doubling the battery costs hardly makes an impact in the overall costs. Net-net not for regular automotive use.
Interesting design. I want to know the self discharge rate, the power ("c") density and efficiency, wh/kg, etc of this. They have to start somewhere, and are going to improve so I want a baseline to compare!
@@sportbikeguy9875 but they've already sold some of their batteries, and have figured out how to make their production line increase yields 10x vs. the current gen 1 line. they have significant interest from several 200B dollar companies. TJ Rodgers is the guy who brought them to market. they've been around for over 10 years
Using silicon to replace the graphite's function on the anode side? The dendrites are usually made of copper that migrates from the lithium cobalt cppper oxide. The copper has an extremely important function, it is briefly reduced to copper before the ion forms a stable complex and releases the charge. The planar structure of your cells are very similar to the structure of fast discharge low ESR capacitors btw 😁🤓
Really excellent interview. So much innovation in the battery space, augers well for the EV future. Not so sure about the importance of super fast charging. Add charging at home overnight to self driving tech allowing your car to go to a charging station by itself and I think the problem becomes much less important.
They clearly aren't scaling this for EVs because at the moment they can't. Wearables are the smallest batteries because that's the only place where they can be competitive. Huge spend on R&D is required here to get to EV scales - they are probably desperate to be bought.
not at all. they have plenty of working capital. they were brought to the market by tj rodgers who is also the executive chair of the board. the leadership at this company is absolutely world class and they have massive clout throughout the tech industry
Only one thing matters here: is their technology protected by patents which give the company something truly unique and, if so, how easy is it for a competitor to engineer around any patent? If they really have this tech protected and it's really great then Tesla would buy them. The other important question is how much money do they have to get them through the immense R&D spend required for scaling to EV?
yes, they have everything protected by patents, along with proprietary materials engineers who created the Brakeflow tech in house. they have enough money for a year without having to do any kind of fundraising, assuming zero revenue
I find it interesting that you assume that Tesla would buy them if they had superior technology. This question brings to mind Tesla's solar division, This division insists on using centralized string inverters despite knowing that there is superior technology available in the form of microinverters. Enphase has superior inverter technology in the form of microinverters, despite this Tesla still uses old school archaic centralized string inverters. I wouldn't be so quick to assume that Tesla will adopt this superior technology they have a hard-headedness in insisting on using in-house technology that they create and not acquire.
As somebody noticed already, this "engineer" claims that pressure equals force times area. Oh, and silicon oxide (like sand) is "100% active silicon." Apparently, he left Enovix shortly after this disastrous interview. There are so many red flags here, but the host apparently knows very little about batteries! As of today, contrary to the video title and the claims of this former employee, no product uses any Enovix battery. Even the datasheets have disappeared!
Very exciting stuff. I can't wait to hear what Elon thinks about this battery architecture & the potential increase in overall power density. I think it's obvious that charging in this manner will certainly be quicker, but I wonder how they test to avoid overcharging?
Mmmm , 290 Wh/kg and only 500 cycles to 80% capacity retention . That is barely a 7% higher energy density for a big price in cycle life . Hardly a breakthrough
@@guidedbygreen1480 that's not what's in the brochure of the products on their website . Maybe in the lab they did , but they do not seem to promise that yet for the commercially available products they are currently producing
DIFFERENCE BETWEEN TECHNOLOGICAL & MANUFACTURING "BETTER" "Better" is relative. Musk's "better" assessment of course must also evaluate the economics involved in the specific application (Tesla's EVs). If the new cells aren't viable from a manufacturing and implementation costs standpoint, they may not be "better". Then again, they could in fact be "better" in a different application (e.g. power generating plant energy storage).
Why didn't you ask about manufacturing? Basically the only difference between this and conventional cells is the "3D design", and that's a big, very exciting difference. But how do they make these cells? Does it scale? Is it cost-effective? Is it capital-intensive?
they are also 100% silicon anode, and the patient's Brakeflow tech means that there's no thermal runaway of the cell is pierced. that is why they won a follow on contact with the government for their cells, as they were the only next gen battery to survive the nail test
Same with hydrogen. They always quote the gravimetric energy density which is mind blowing. But being such a light element, the actual volumetric density is absolute ass (gravimetric too actually). No matter if it's liquified or compressed it's absolute ass. Hydrogen is much better carried in other molecules like ammonia, methane etc.
Sounds like their design will be massively more expensive for EV scale batteries, so not any where near competitive for electric cars in the near future.
No, I was not paid by the company to do this video. I will always make it very clear in any videos that do include paid content at the beginning of the video. Not only is this ethical, but it is the law.
If you place their cells horizontally you get the BYD blade architecture. While BYD is actually a big battery manufacturer this company here, Enovix, doesn't produce any car battery. So?🥴 Today, if you don't move very fast in this market of car battery innovation and production, you'll be beat in short time by other innovators who move very fast out there, as anybody can see the present reality. When you truly have a much better technology in this very hot segment of electric car battery, the money for very fast development and right away production is not a problem at all. I don't say that Enovix can't be better, but they should move very fast to actually production and selling battery packs to the electric car battery market, because it looks like other better technologies are coming fast from behind ( StoreDot car battery packs that charge in 5 minutes, chinese sodium batteries, etc ).
"manufacturing 3 dimensional small parts" where in the universe do "parts" exist of lesser dimensions? tech hooplah without the demonstrations is meaningless. all they guy should do is show the performance of one of their batteries next to existing, it should sell by itself.
Who in their right mind would post a video with tacky music int the background, cant concentrate at all. Also go easy on the nerd shit and get asking about revenue
There is No Way that any resistor that is large enough to prevent thermal runaway (unless it's a PTC) is not going to affect charge/discharge current. That would break physics. As for your long and meandering explanation about small vs. EV batteries.. just tell the truth. Making an EV battery requires an EV to put it in. Without a contract, it's beyond foolish to make EV batteries, even if you could get past the intellectual property hurdles.
![[DRAGON BALL LEGENDS REVEALS ＆ STUFF] LEGENDS FESTIVAL 2024 Special Edition Part 2](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/af0phKxitX8/mqdefault.jpg)
Really pleased Cameron explained volumetric and gravimetric confusion many people encounter when comparing new battery technologies. Looks like this company management is transparent and knowledgeable.
Why start with smart watches and smart phones?
Well, you can make 20000 smart watch batteries with the amount of battery material that goes into a single EV battery pack, so that's a pretty compelling reason if you're just starting to ramp your production lines.
T.J. Rodgers' involvement gives this high credibility, IMHO.
Another excellent interview.
Thanks!
There are lots of people claiming their battery design is the next big thing. Elon said it best, bring your battery to Tesla, and if it is better than their existing products, they will pay up.
Agreed, we can pick through the BS from real world product somewhat reliably, but the proof is in the pudding, and that happens when there's a product on the table.
One speculative play I'm invested in though, is GMG. Been covered on this page a few times
They don't plan on ev battery until 2025 though. And other car companies make electric vehicles besides tesla lol.
@@FinalFlash2110 Yes but how many? Tesla and BYD are the only automakers building EVs at scale. Everyone else is still dabbling.
@@TecnamTwin I don't even know where to begin. Other car companies have been around for much longer than Tesla. They can't just stop making non ev vehicles and just start making all EV's. They can make money while they put out their ev's. Or you can be like Toyota and own the hybrid game then release your EV's as the market is ready for them. Toyota or anyone else would be so stupid to just stop production of everything and just make EV's. BTW that GR Corolla they made is going to be very very popular because they are making it at the perfect time. Every one is going electric and Toyota is still putting out cool cars that people won't be able to buy in a few years. Tesla can't do that and make a car for enthusiasts while they work on their future EV's. Also, most people don't want EV's because we don't have the infrastructure to charge these things. They also charge slow as fuck. Batteries won't catch up until 2025 which is when other auto makers will have to make only EV's. It's funny, Tesla was the first and thought they'd change everything and make other auto makers switch to electric and no one even cared lol. They just said yea we will keep doing what we do and switch when we have to.
@@TecnamTwin nothing to say?
I like the long format deep dives, keep them coming!
I am glad that you make entire video on this … Thank you 😊
Enovix ::: Apple Samsung Dell Garmin Tesla 🤷🏻♂️ List goes on and on 🤞🏻
Excellent interview and production.
Thank you John and Enovix`s
Interesting. Seems like it would be difficult to scale. Also "absolute value volumetric equivalent" sounds like a marketing term. It's probably a good design for miniature electronics. Not so sure about EV scale packs. Hope I'm wrong.
They can absolutely scale for small consumer based electronics, it is happening now. I'm expecting continued innovation and breakthroughs regarding laser patterning from Enovix. This will continue to increase efficiency and aid in scaling for EV. Enovix needs to be a continued leader in the technology for their lasers. Manuel Leonardo and his team from IPG Photonics will help lead this. Their PR from 11/1 regarding the MOU with IPG hints at this.
At around 34:30 - Gravimetric energy density is extremely important in aircraft and racing vehicles.
Really interesting to see you talking to these people. I've been invested in them for a couple of years now in hopes that they are onto something.
What a great interview! I'm very glad to have invested in this company. It would be amazing if you could connect again with a follow up, after Fab 2 is up and running.
Thanks! I enjoyed this interview and a follow-up interview would be a great idea.
LFP covers all MY bases as a long term sleeper.
It was interesting to see T. J. Rogers. He was sort of a hero to Reason magazine back in the Virginia Postrel days when he was a maverick computer chip maker.
I know everyone wants An EV battery…. The power tool industry…. This battery can be a game changer
Most tool charger 30/60 min to charge….
the architecture design is simply genius
Wen revenue
Thanks Jon. How well would this technology work with a Sodium-based cell? There could be significant cost advantages if Na could be used successfully. There is also a point where low cost and recyclability become more important than ultimate cycle life, mass and energy density, especially in bulk storage applications. Also, an easily swappable battery at end of life has its advantages in automotive installations, if costs can be kept low enough.
Of all the claims out there, this one sounds promising and possibly real.
Watched the enovix video here and when he held up the battery for the glasses I said hey that’s for the Apple smart glasses that’s suppose to be announced in early 2023. Might be a great investment opportunity as it haven’t been announced yet.
Nice that there was money laying on the ground in the form of geometry improvements! Obvious in hindsight: the best kind of innovation.
Great review on this company 💯 thanks cleaner watt..
Gravimetric is important because ultimately the energy efficiency of the EV is a function of many things but weight is a big factor. Efficiency will be more important when comparing EVs to each other, just like they were for ICE vehicles. Right now EVs are competing against ICE mainly so weight is not a big factor to short sighted manufacturers.
20:06 So he is saying their batteries have a high internal resistance? Isn't low internal resistance better?
I found on google: "A battery with low internal resistance delivers high current on demand. High resistance causes the battery to heat up and the voltage to drop. The equipment cuts off, leaving energy behind. Lead acid has a very low internal resistance and the battery responds well to high current bursts that last for a few seconds."
Cool cell design....but seems very slow and complicated manufacturing process. Inter-laying thin filaments of anode, cathode (&separator) and making connection to each seems like a very delicate, slow, complex and expensive process....compared to 2170/4680 that just rolls up a long tape of 1 strip of anode and 1 strip of cathode (&separator).
No wonder that the Enovix is supplying the cells to small electronic devices...in which cell size is a significant factor while cell cost is just a tiny fraction of the overall cost.
I totally doubt Enovix will be able to scale volume production of this design to go into EVs....and not to mention offer it at an attractive price point.
We have done this in semiconductors with FinFET and that adds a ton of steps, but costs will go down when a turnkey manufacturing solution comes out. Traditional wrapped batteries have production lines you can order from Bosch etc, but not this.
@@henryzhang7873 Costs might come down a little with volume, but will unlikely be able to compete with the good-old jelly-roll spooling.
It's definitely a great advantage in premium portable electronics like smartwatches, 'google' glass etc where even doubling the battery costs hardly makes an impact in the overall costs.
Net-net not for regular automotive use.
Can u follow up with enovix please. Love listening to ur interview 😊
Interesting design. I want to know the self discharge rate, the power ("c") density and efficiency, wh/kg, etc of this. They have to start somewhere, and are going to improve so I want a baseline to compare!
Yeah, until I see any useful numbers, this is just a startup with a good idea on paper, and no path to bring it to market
@@sportbikeguy9875 but they've already sold some of their batteries, and have figured out how to make their production line increase yields 10x vs. the current gen 1 line. they have significant interest from several 200B dollar companies. TJ Rodgers is the guy who brought them to market. they've been around for over 10 years
29:36 spec sheet covers most of this. Wh/kg is 258
Great video deep dive. Very informative and the visuals were excellent as well. Any chance you could do a deep dive on the EOS Z3 Zinc battery?
Using silicon to replace the graphite's function on the anode side? The dendrites are usually made of copper that migrates from the lithium cobalt cppper oxide. The copper has an extremely important function, it is briefly reduced to copper before the ion forms a stable complex and releases the charge. The planar structure of your cells are very similar to the structure of fast discharge low ESR capacitors btw 😁🤓
34:00 Gravimetric may make much sense for flying devices, like drones.
“Architecting”. This is a jargon man.
Yea he is.
Was that a Mustang on the mug?
Really excellent interview. So much innovation in the battery space, augers well for the EV future.
Not so sure about the importance of super fast charging. Add charging at home overnight to self driving tech allowing your car to go to a charging station by itself and I think the problem becomes much less important.
What about SK or other competition? Why will Enovix do better than some other Silicon Anode manufacturer?
They clearly aren't scaling this for EVs because at the moment they can't. Wearables are the smallest batteries because that's the only place where they can be competitive. Huge spend on R&D is required here to get to EV scales - they are probably desperate to be bought.
not at all. they have plenty of working capital. they were brought to the market by tj rodgers who is also the executive chair of the board. the leadership at this company is absolutely world class and they have massive clout throughout the tech industry
You need to do some research.
Only one thing matters here: is their technology protected by patents which give the company something truly unique and, if so, how easy is it for a competitor to engineer around any patent? If they really have this tech protected and it's really great then Tesla would buy them. The other important question is how much money do they have to get them through the immense R&D spend required for scaling to EV?
yes, they have everything protected by patents, along with proprietary materials engineers who created the Brakeflow tech in house.
they have enough money for a year without having to do any kind of fundraising, assuming zero revenue
Who cares about Tesla. Lol in a few years will they even be around?
I find it interesting that you assume that Tesla would buy them if they had superior technology. This question brings to mind Tesla's solar division, This division insists on using centralized string inverters despite knowing that there is superior technology available in the form of microinverters. Enphase has superior inverter technology in the form of microinverters, despite this Tesla still uses old school archaic centralized string inverters. I wouldn't be so quick to assume that Tesla will adopt this superior technology they have a hard-headedness in insisting on using in-house technology that they create and not acquire.
Why the music?! It’s maddening! I can’t go on.
Great to hear about all the new exited innovation
"Breakthrough" is the new code word for "Vaporware"
As somebody noticed already, this "engineer" claims that pressure equals force times area. Oh, and silicon oxide (like sand) is "100% active silicon." Apparently, he left Enovix shortly after this disastrous interview. There are so many red flags here, but the host apparently knows very little about batteries! As of today, contrary to the video title and the claims of this former employee, no product uses any Enovix battery. Even the datasheets have disappeared!
Very exciting stuff. I can't wait to hear what Elon thinks about this battery architecture & the potential increase in overall power density. I think it's obvious that charging in this manner will certainly be quicker, but I wonder how they test to avoid overcharging?
Mmmm , 290 Wh/kg and only 500 cycles to 80% capacity retention . That is barely a 7% higher energy density for a big price in cycle life . Hardly a breakthrough
So tired of companies that have a breakthrough that is not that??
They use resistors to reduce the current flow. That won’t help for charging or discharging. Might never be good for cars.
@@andrewangrignon6532 i mean, their ev cells charge past 80% in 5 minutes.. the resistor is to prevent thermal runaway in case of a pierced cell.
In the video he explains that they achieved 90% capacity retention at 1500 cycles
@@guidedbygreen1480 that's not what's in the brochure of the products on their website . Maybe in the lab they did , but they do not seem to promise that yet for the commercially available products they are currently producing
All those batteries and electric cars.
DIFFERENCE BETWEEN TECHNOLOGICAL & MANUFACTURING "BETTER"
"Better" is relative. Musk's "better" assessment of course must also evaluate the economics involved in the specific application (Tesla's EVs). If the new cells aren't viable from a manufacturing and implementation costs standpoint, they may not be "better". Then again, they could in fact be "better" in a different application (e.g. power generating plant energy storage).
they're going after wearables and small electronics first. they are extremely fast charging, too
Man, ya'll are obsessed with Musk. They won't even be doing EV for years.
Why didn't you ask about manufacturing?
Basically the only difference between this and conventional cells is the "3D design", and that's a big, very exciting difference.
But how do they make these cells? Does it scale? Is it cost-effective? Is it capital-intensive?
they are also 100% silicon anode, and the patient's Brakeflow tech means that there's no thermal runaway of the cell is pierced. that is why they won a follow on contact with the government for their cells, as they were the only next gen battery to survive the nail test
@@michaelwilliams5506 both are enabled by the new design, and they could make other chemistries
@@w0ttheh3ll this is very true. the big deal, really, is the architecture.
I’ve never heard a mechanical engineer say “pressure equals force times area” before.
That’s worrying.
It is like RAC's concept in database. Clusters
Very nice, tanke u 👍
Thumb down just for that annoying music track that never stops. Presentation matters, at least in the extremes.
Same with hydrogen. They always quote the gravimetric energy density which is mind blowing. But being such a light element, the actual volumetric density is absolute ass (gravimetric too actually). No matter if it's liquified or compressed it's absolute ass. Hydrogen is much better carried in other molecules like ammonia, methane etc.
290 isn't high enough. We need to see 400 before air planes become viable
kennst du meinen Freund Fermilab schon?
Where does the actual lithium come from?
Cool tech. Easily replicated by China, long term, though?
But there batery miracles every month
Sounds like their design will be massively more expensive for EV scale batteries, so not any where near competitive for electric cars in the near future.
pretty sure in the video he says exactly the opposite. Why do you think they will be so much more expensive??
Lol did you listen?
And uhhh ya so uhhhh and ummm uhhhh and ah um uhhhh aUahhhhhh!
I hope you realize he dodged some of your important questions.
Which ones?
Oh yeah?
You're not invested in this company. Were you paid to produce this content?
No, I was not paid by the company to do this video. I will always make it very clear in any videos that do include paid content at the beginning of the video. Not only is this ethical, but it is the law.
I'm highly skeptical of this guy's pitch.
why? just going to say that and not say anything as to why you are skeptical? uhhhhhh okay
LOL!
Wen revenue
Do not play background music over the top of guest talent. To do so is extremely offensive to them and such noise lends zero value to the discussion.
If you place their cells horizontally you get the BYD blade architecture.
While BYD is actually a big battery manufacturer this company here, Enovix, doesn't produce any car battery.
So?🥴
Today, if you don't move very fast in this market of car battery innovation and production, you'll be beat in short time by other innovators who move very fast out there, as anybody can see the present reality.
When you truly have a much better technology in this very hot segment of electric car battery, the money for very fast development and right away production is not a problem at all.
I don't say that Enovix can't be better, but they should move very fast to actually production and selling battery packs to the electric car battery market, because it looks like other better technologies are coming fast from behind ( StoreDot car battery packs that charge in 5 minutes, chinese sodium batteries, etc ).
"manufacturing 3 dimensional small parts" where in the universe do "parts" exist of lesser dimensions?
tech hooplah without the demonstrations is meaningless.
all they guy should do is show the performance of one of their batteries next to existing, it should sell by itself.
Who in their right mind would post a video with tacky music int the background, cant concentrate at all. Also go easy on the nerd shit and get asking about revenue
more hype to lure investors ?
There is No Way that any resistor that is large enough to prevent thermal runaway (unless it's a PTC) is not going to affect charge/discharge current. That would break physics. As for your long and meandering explanation about small vs. EV batteries.. just tell the truth. Making an EV battery requires an EV to put it in. Without a contract, it's beyond foolish to make EV batteries, even if you could get past the intellectual property hurdles.
Basically his batteries suck for quick Charge. NEXT
They are the best for quick charge, they can get 80% charge in 5 minutes
@@guidedbygreen1480 and over 90% in 10 minutes
ill take your shares lol