The Myth About Screenplay Story Structure by Larry Wilson
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- Опубликовано: 6 июл 2018
- In this Film Courage video interview, screenwriter Larry Wilson talks about writing misconceptions that are often mistaken for absolutes amongst screenwriting teachers and students.
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Thank you! This is what encourages writers to come out with their genuine ideas rather than sticking to a diagram that may limit your weirdness 👍👍👍
Larry's my new hero. Bet he drives Micheal Hauge crazy to the point of pulling out his hair. :)
I love that he said this. One of the best award-winning writers told me years ago to and I quote "just write the damn story YOU want to tell" . Don't worry about rigid structures.
Story structure is meant to assist, not to restrict. The only rule that you can't break is keeping the audience hooked and emotionally invested in your story from fade in till fade out.
Larry Wilson is my new hero. Getting stuck in formulaic systems does not make for good writing. Unfortunately, he's also right that most producers/readers are looking for a formula. I had a script consultant (who is well-respected) tell me that a major event in a script of mine needed to happen 20 pages earlier. I pointed out that everything before that lead directly to that point, and without those 20 pages the major event would make no sense. She basically threw up her hands and said "That's what needs to happen". A perfect example of holding the story up to a graph. She never said the beginning was too slow, or that there were things that could be cut, just that this event needed to happen 20 pages earlier...
Also, I'd like to debunk this myth that the Classic Hero's Tale is the way stories have been told since the beginning of time. It's often said that the Greeks consistently used this structure. Bullshit. No one who's ever read Greek Mythology would say that. The Hero's Tale is about the Hero achieving their unfulfilled destiny through personal growth, overcoming all obstacles to achieve their goal. Greek Mythology is all about how humans are all just pawns in the schemes of the Gods. Personal growth is NEVER a feature in Greek Mythology. There, I said it... :)
I don't really 'follow' anyone, I personally like to let the story tell itself to me, and I write it down. The idea that an event "needs" to happen on a specific page number is just ridiculous. The scene in Dead Poet's Society - where the book they're reading has a graph to plot the poem's quality - is a perfect example of that kind of thinking. Unfortunately, it's hard to get anyone to read a script that doesn't follow formula, since they believe that's the only way to make films and TV.
To be fair, the money-people (producers and studio execs) are responsible for making a profit. Period. They are not responsible for making art or fulfilling people's dreams. Along the way, the myth arose that the only way to make a profit was to use the formula. It works often enough that they disregard any other idea. So, if you want to be a good writer (tell interesting stories) abandon formula and work your storytelling sorcery. But, if you want to be a working writer, you might want to keep your formulaic tendencies...
@@madnessbydesign1415 Its useful to study plot formulas when your starting out as a writer, but once you gain a little experience and craftsmanship you can play with formulas to suite your needs and not the other way around. One of the most important things to get right is to make sure something changes every 6-10 minutes so your story is constantly dynamic and interesting, if your story is too static it comes across as inert and boring. I saw an expert say this is a common flaw with beginning writers, they have 4 big twists but otherwise the story is dull.
Gordon Preston, Don't get me wrong: Learning how to structure a story is important. The issue here is people acting like one structure fits all stories. When you read screenwriting books, they often fall into the 'On page 10, have your inciting incident. On page 30, introduce your B plot...'. This is why the most common complaint about Hollywood is that everything is so formulaic, and there's no creativity. A story should breathe on its own. It will tell you when and where it needs to be faster or slower. The craft is not forcing a story into a vice, it's helping a story to grow into its potential...
@@madnessbydesign1415 Brilliant advice :)
Yo: Perhaps it’s wise to follow the logic and wisdom of a little child. Their circuitous mind paths are so freshly creative, open and really funny. Their logic is so innocent without guile and genuinely pure, yet so “off”. It’s always refreshing to hear a child come up with a very wrong, yet hysterical conclusion about their life’s inquisitive story. Their premise is off, yet they’re conclusion is very logical.
You don’t have to start with a structural premise that’s acutely precise, correct, accurate or stifling. Start with a premise that’s “off” or preposterous. This will automatically allow you to relax all rules and the audience will relax and laugh too. They want to slough off the rigidity of life’s rules which are strangulating them. That’s why they go to the movies-to escape.
Start your structure like a child would, and how they fling it completely off to the wind yet somehow get herded back to it by adult happenstance boomerang rules but keep bouncing off the walls of ‘only-color-within-the-lines’ insane rigidity. Children are unable to just sit still. Think more like a kid and how they just don’t care about rules or structure. They care about whimsy, fun and what frees them. Kids are buoyant and rubbery. They ‘go by feel’ and inadvertently scribble all over structure lines and beyond it. Then have a parent type of character cut around them or try to control or restrict them, but ultimately give up tossing their hands up in the air, like all parents do.
He gives the best story telling advice I have ever heard: "Have characters who you believe in, put them in the tightest, most impossible situation you can imagine, and get them out of it, and let the story flow."
Structure of a script is what was pounded in school and It bogged me down for the longest time. I'd be paralyzed and overwhelmed. Once I got more comfortable bending it is when I actually started finishing scripts.
@Yo I read a very helpful book - Conflict and Suspense by James Scott Bell. I draw a loose outline to start and just write from there. Once I have finished my script or close to, I make it a point during the editing to have the story avoid being unnecessarily dull by cutting out the fat parts. That's where the book comes in handy! So long as the story is engaging and developing the structure forms itself almost. Breaking the conventions has helped me and can make for a more dynamic story, I believe. Hope this helps!
Amen. Some of my heaviest paralysis came from not being able to juggle all those damn “necessary structural steps” together, to the point where my actual creativity inevitably slowed to a crawl
"If you're a storyteller, the story will emerge and you have to believe you're a storyteller." ;-)
Completely agree Gigi!
Yeah. That makes sense. I will add that new structures might emerge. The preconceptions are there as tools not the true. Sometimes as he says is just let it flow. In storytelling might apply perfectly that or this way of seeing knowledge.
we want to see and know the interviewer too asking such good questions.
It's Jodi Foster.
So liberating... you can tell by the way Larry talks that he's a natural storyteller. Thanks!
I think the tools out there are really useful, but in the end, it will all depend of how you can better tell your specific story.
Broad statement but very true. Hard to explain what you just said there but it comes down to your own unique story telling ability
@@thomaskubrak1576 Totally agree with you Thomas. In the end, if the writer doesn't have an innate talent to tell a story, then all the advice in the world will not help much.
Love Film Courage for all its videos. They spark so much thought and debate.
I think that stories are about people and their relation (cause/ consequences) with incidents that are either big or small, personal or life changing for the world. Again these incidents are either historic, fictional or biographical but like every writer worth their salt says, tell the story of a person/ people because audiences empathize with characters not incidents no matter how big, small, clever or mysterious those incidents or plots are.
The point as I understand he’s trying to make is don’t get sold on the structure… I’ve followed the greats and read their screenplays and tried to apply all the rules out there… the rules are there but used by the film makers to the degree they’d like to. If you watch The Prestige a few times you see through the mystery and see deliberate story turns that remind you of structure but not followed as blueprint but as a guide.
My guess is that we should know every rule in the game of writing and then create our own mix, every time!
The only rule is don't be boring. Larry Wilson is great. Love his interviews.
He is one of my favourites teachers in film courage. Should do an interview updated
I think the point he's making isn't to say structure doesn't matter, but that he's against paradigm/formulaic structure and instead advocating custom organic structure that best tells that particular story.
Brilliant advice in this video, thank you Mr Wilson and Film Courage!
Larry Wilson is awesome. We're glad you found this one.
Amen, Larry! Thank you for being honest.
The other thing is 1 page doesn't = 1 min of screentime. A lot of things can happen in the frame of a visual medium, 1 page could end up equaling 10 seconds.
mavenous22 - Very true, but this is more of a rule of thumb and not a hard and fast rule. So kind of like a guide.
It should be thought of more as "An average of 1 page per minute". That tends to hold up as a general guideline.
What do you suggest as the norm?
@@Nautilus1972 the norm will be 1 page 1 minute. 100 pages will be about 1 hour 30 minutes feature
Absolutely love this! Will repeat his words to myself.
In my belief structure is the result of a meaningful and consistent story, that starts, evolves and ends. This means, when you write a story that is not well structured, you will see things going offroad. Focus on wrong characters or story elements. When you then fix the issues more and more by simply looking at what works and how to follow up on that, more and more scenes emerge which fit into that line. In the end, something which we would call a good structure is the result. I think a story is fractal like self similar. I think this is how our brain and every organic stuff is structured so hour brain makes the most sense of things in this consistant way. In other words, you dont need a book that teaches you how to structure. Of course there can be satisfaction for people to examine how good storys are structured but this will not help you creating your own story in the most elegant structure. Your gut will.
aloha, at this point, after research and educating myself regarding writing (and of course, writing), I've concluded that all you need (for oral, screen or novel storytelling) is to tell a story well and be entertaining. Whether drama, comedy, adventure and all the permutations. It's about storytelling.
Basically, forget, or at least stop seeing ''save the cat'' and books on screenplay from, idk, robert mckee or syd fields as something that is THE WAY. It's a way, and sometimes this way becomes very boring, i mean, almost every pixar movie from the last few years have the same structure, and you simply know that some obvious ''plot twists'' are going to happen and so on...
Great video. Story unravels differently now because audiences have seen it all. Love this Karen!
Thank you! :) We've greatly enjoyed sharing Larry's insight and stories. Appreciate the feedback.
Larry Wilson is so right on. Jut write the story you see unfolding in your mind. If there was only one way to structure a screenplay...then why would there be so many scripts sold which didn't follow that one way? If you have 50 gurus telling you their way to writing a screenplay is the only way and you have to buy all their materials and classes or you are a failure...then which guru is 100% correct...when thousands of writers are selling or optioning their work and they don't follow the advice of any of the 50 gurus? Hmmmmmm? It's a business guys....it's an industry! What does that actually mean? It means there are people out there who have a plan to get your money based on your hopes and dreams to sell your screenplay. It's a business!
And most of those gurus aren't even successful in the Industry
This was a real amazing one!
I think when someone says the first act is "too long" very often it has nothing to do with the LENGTH of time but the USE of time. So much is wasted on information that contributes to nothing and leads to nowhere. In Psycho everything prior to arriving at the Bates Motel is necessary to establish, setup and draw the audience into the story and characters not only for the shocking shower scene to work but for the dominos to tumble from thereon
I like this video. I think the advice here in saying dont let structure become a CAGE is that structure is like good advice from a friend. You don't have to live by it like gospel but its influential in your decision making
Fantastic video!
He did a great job. I give him an A+
The Larry Wilson really know what a screenwriter is going through. The so-called rules of screenwriting will really slow a screenwriter down. Structures Yea Right!!
Very interesting discussion. An offbeat perspective for new writers (meant as a compliment).
What he is saying about "story structure formula " is exactly the same issue that Stella Adler had with Stanislavski's approach to acting using emotional memory .
The problem with "technique" is that it supresses innovation and independent thinking.
It’s okay to use differing tools as a reference especially starting out. Moreover, tell a great story. The more technical aspects that you understand the better your storytelling ability becomes
I'm addicted to film curage
this channel should be advertised
Where would you like to see this channel advertised?
@@filmcourage I think youtube could be useful. I'm not really familiar with the tools but I feel that this content should reach more people.
If you master the principles behind structure, that’s when you can stop pre-planning. Anyone selling diagrams on structure doesn’t understand structure because structure can be and should be simplified to:
1) Exposition/make audience care
2) Inciting incident
3) Point of no return
4) Pre-climax followed by revelation (x2-4)
5) All hope is lost
6) Climax
7) Resolution
Page number diagrams are bs. You should be able to pace it yourself.
Outlines should really be used more for planning out motifs, allegory, want vs. need, and theme than for structure.
Finally!
My basic advice based on my own attempts to learn how to write in the past year: watch lots of movies from all genres (and read/listen to books). Watch the films you actually really like (not "classics" you don't like) repeatedly while paying attention so you know them, make notes if you want to. Read one or two 'how to write a movie' books like Save The Cat so you get a decent idea idea of what generic structure is. And finally, for me, work out what your story is from start to finish before you start writing the script. And work hard at that bit. When you get stuck, keep going, your job is to solve the problems you've created for your characters.
thank you ... writing fiction not screenplay but great advice
My favorite screenwriting person ever.
Spoiler alert: @ 10:05 Pete Townsend, not Jimmy Page, destroyed his guitar.
The Emotional Structure
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Larry Wilson
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Story Time!
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On a day that most people know and most people can see. it's a day in the town of Boulder Colorado where a lot of people are out and about doing their normal routines.
On the other side of the city something else is happening. Something involving a group of writers .
And a man by the name of Larry has decided to speak to them.
He believes in young writers and their abilities.
He has a different twist to this talk though.
Going into the day the group who have comfrom all parts of theCountry, mainly Boulder thourhg, being that this is only their second annual writers conference, they have dthey only have a small amount of people.
But the small group of people is a powerful group.
Larry knows this
He aproacheds the stage, with his many great works behind him and e says over the mic somehing that intriques the audience from the get go but has them a little confused
He belts from the stage, "....
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by- Tom Kubrak
“Movie god” isn’t a book, it’s spending your entire life trying to figure out why the most successful films succeed and why nobody has ever heard of Larry Wilson.
Larry Wilson nice 👌
In some point it’s about be sensitive and allow yourself to live and be an espectator of the story in the page. And let yourself be possessed by it... At the end the writer is just the medium
I agree completely. I have a couple of stories I am working on atm and they just seem to grow inside of me, whether I want it or not. I can be doing laundry or making dinner and something will jump to the front of my mind, whether it's a characters actions, a plot twist or whatever......it's unstoppable and I love it! :)
Writing is a craft. Any idiot can follow rules and guidelines, it takes skill and smarts to use your tools and know what structure works for the unique story you're trying to tell.
But structure matters. Forms matters. Form and structure are everything. They are the game. But you've already given yourself a safe C, if you just re-use tried and true formulas.
Yes! We need to go against the norm, break conventions and rules. This way we may get more interesting, unique and memorable movies as opposed to what Hollywood keeps giving us...
Mag Movies thats not what dude is saying...
MOEBIUS MK9 - 8:40...
Mr H9736 - Except he is, the title of this video is "The Myth About Screenplay Structure". Keyword being *myth*. And to go against or believe something other than a myth or common rule, means to subvert expectations, to object, to simply do something different.
Which segways into my initial comment, but hey, this is what I got from this video and I was just dropping my two cents. You think whatever you like :)
Agreed movies nowadays are awful we need to change that
No matter how much the original spec writer writes to make it different, the people rewriting the script will change it according to how the producers want it. Therefore this GREAT script that becomes ‘a regular Hollywood’ movie
aloha, an addition. I should have watched to the end before I made the comment below. It's nice to get confirmation I'm on the right track.
I'M GOING TO BE MY OWN MOVIE GODDESS FOR NOW ON💋
He seems a cool dude this one.
"How's your screenplay?"
"The story sucks, and it's boring, but the structure is PERFECT!"
I skimmed through the "Cat" book. One of the biggest regrets of my creative pursuits.
I've never read it...I have however read other books on screenwriting...
I'm not aware that Jimmie Page had a reputation for smashing his guitars 10:05, he collects them - do you mean Pete Townsend?
"I'm a Guru, here's how Lord of the Rings follows the 3 Act structure: Act 1. Frodo gets Ring and it must be destroyed or world=doomed, Act 3 - the Ring is destroyed climax!"
"Great Guru, what about the 1400 pages in the middle? You know ringwraiths, Old Forest, Bree, Frodo stabbed, house of Elrond, Moria, Balrog, Lothlorien, Boromir killed, all that Rohan and Saruman stuff, Treebeard, Helms deep, the paths of the dead, Gollum, Ithilien, Faramir stuff, Orthanc, Gondor, Mordor, the siege of Minas Tirith, the King returns, Rohirrim, etc."
"Oh that? Act 2, rising action"
"........"
This guy should be the only guy allowed to talk ever!
Something that is well structured is often full of plot contrivances....why did he do that? That makes no sense.
Because plot point one requires it.
I'm a great storyteller because I've lived.
This guy is arguing against a straw man. Now, I am sure that there are very formulaic ways of writing that are taught, at least as a basis. Typically so that the instructor has something to make comparisons against. But when he says that stories have a beginning, middle and an end, that is a three-act structure. That is a formula. It is a complete straw man to call out "you must have this climax on page 30." No. No one would defend that statement. Will most screenplays that fit within a conventional time limit have some sort of major crisis between pages 25 and 35, damn right they will. Further, if you are going to go away from that, very broad, structure, then there probably needs to be a reason for doing it that comes from the story, rather than just from a desire to "be a rebel."
That's not what a straw man is. He's illustrating his own point, a strawman is when you're falsely illustrating someone else's.
But doesn't all movies follow more or less the same structure? Comedies, horror movies, etc. Otherwise, people would stop watching romantic comedies, for example. They meet, they separate, they get back together; there's the best friend, the other girl the protagonist falls in love with, then he realizes the first girl is the one...etc. etc.
The majority of the comments are here are misinterpreting what the man is saying about structure. Act structure was never something to be followed, you've missed the point.
I fear that almost ALL screenplay contests use structure as an absolute, criteria-wise. I hope I'm wrong about that...
Pete Townsend of The Who smashed his guitar and everyone followed suit, not Jimmy Page of Led Zeppelin.
Jimmy Page never smashed a gutair. Which has nothing to do with music or writing.
Guitar?
Did Jimmy Page ever smash a guitar? Maybe she was thinking of Pete Townshend? I'll cut her some slack though, she a story gal, not a music gal. :P
You're right...might have been thinking of Pete Townshend. Probably Jimmy Page did not smash his guitar but you never know? Hopefully I don't get Keith Moon and Stewart Copeland confused either. :) Appreciate you watching the video. We also love Larry. Thanks again!
How do I pay this guy to read my screenplay?
Of all the things a person might take issue with, Jimmy Page's guitar? That's what gets the comments?
Jimmy Page smashing guitar?
😂
Agree and disagree with him. Structure screenplay can be an useful guideline for beginners or for a start.
One more thing, how many of you think Hallmark stories are BORING because they're all the same?
a saner SHELDON COOPER
Listen closely... Every structure map defines page count as relative to the story... And ALL say it's not written in stone... This BS is just creating conflict where there is none... But Hey Noobs, by all means please live by the concept of "fuck the rules" I beg you... Because as long as you have that mindset, my competition just got narrower.
#you
#are
#not
#an
#established
#writer
#SorryRulesDoApplyToYou
When you break or don't know rules you are more creative.
You need to understand the rules in order to break them. At least in my opinion.
You can break the law even if you not aware of :)
Adam Robert Misiura thats not what I meant. When you realize what the rules of film are, you can take full advantage of them.
You can be more creative without understanding architecture, but your building will probably fall down.
That's fair but architecture requires knowledge and experience about the subject. Period. Like being a doctor. Making a movie does not (entirely) require a specific education cause you just need an idea and smartphone to make something worthy. Can we learn how to build a perfectly standing house? Yes. Not always good looking but yes. Can we learn about making a perfect movie? Nope. Cause architecture is about a stuff connected to hard science like math and physic you're not born with. Art is about emotions and truth. It grow with you as a human being. You may experience it from zero without learning basics like film students.
I think I'm realizing the key to being a screenwriter isn't the avoidance of negatives. It just not being non-white or non-male.
Negative advice doesn't tell you HOW to do something, and none of these videos give useful or profound information. What you need to someone to have 'faith' (belief without evidence) in you - and that's just something that a certain demographic can take for granted.
Unfortunately it makes their advice completely worthless for those not in that demo. Even this fact upsets them.