I like to think the delay to leadership is like: Empire soldier 4th line: "Why is our leadership tanking? I can't see over this guys head." Empire soldier 3rd line: "I can hear roars, there kind of scary." Empire soldier 2nd line: "The guy in front of me just got eaten whole by a zombie dragon." Empire soldier 3rd line: "Ah." Empire soldier 4th line: "Interesting." The entire squad: *Nope.*
@@benjyibreeg sometimes something is better explained by visualization and by an actual person, for example the terror and fear radiuses. But you just wanted to be a smartass with that comment anyway.
Leadership/morale works different in each game. In WH2 as shown it's heavily tied to inflicting casualties. In Med2 though for example you can morale shock a unit w/o dealing many causalities and break them.
I mean... the Clan Skryre gunline absolutely chews through LD. Toss in some Jezzails and Warpfire Throwers and half their army runs before they get to you.
feels like the lords should have the same as the units that have encurage... feels weird that archaon don´t make people wanna stay and fight as much a bunch of aspiaring champions its like chaos dude nr 1: look thats kholek the sun eater awsome that hes on our side right chaos dude nr 2: nah fuck him. look at martin over there his swords glowing thats way cooler Chaos dude nr 1: yeah you´re right now i feel insipred
"Do you see Lord Archaon?" "Of course I see Lord Archaon. The favor of the gods radiates from him like smoke from fire. I could see him from ten leagues. Also his helmet has like six feet of horn on it." "Yes. Lord Archaon will never die. Every man and monster in this warband could fall and Lord Archaon would fight on until our bones were crushed to dust under his boots." "Metal." "No, I mean. Look, do you see Martin?" "Yes, he is waving at us." "Yes, hello Marty. Well, Martin is a champion who has known battle for 100 turns, but he is not that much greater than us. Anything that he fights, we can fight. Anything that kills him, leave to Lord Archaon."
@@villefere6968 No-fur-thing right right, no head for slice slice, vermin small stupid-thing. Mighty Skaven not exist! Can go back for long nap nap, rest in peace, no worry of stab stab.
This video is just the explanational video for why CA just kept giving Skaven more and more obnoxious guns and skills. Rather than make skaven capable of actually fighting, they just band aided them by making it so they don't have to fight to begin with. Problem solved.
@@villefere6968 in tabletop skaven are the only race that dont gets demoralized when their champion runs away from a duell, they fight keep on fighting for the glory of skavenkind. so yes they have leadership +with the right hero they have some of the highest hero they have damm good moral from their rankbonus.
As he showed its a valid tactic with big stacking penalties if you can do it quickly enough, he also didn't mention the "army losses" one, but it becomes highly valuable when you mix in magic and terror. First time ive seen the actual damage numbers so its great information to have.
Tanking enemy leadership can really turn the tide of some tough battles against low-average leadership armies (skaven, humans, greenskins). heavy shooting, melee clash + damage spell or leadership debuff, and a flank charge (especially with terror) can break an army's flank, which frees up some units you can rededicate elsewhere.
If army losses trigger you lose unless you have enough unbreakable units and they are able to beat what the other army has left which almost never happens.
Unsure of the exact numbers, but around 70%. Keep in mind routing units still count for active fighters, only when they are shattered or fled the battlefield are their numbers deduced from the balance of power. The effect is permanent. It causes all breakable units to turn and run. General and undamaged units might last a few seconds longer, but they too head for the hills. Then the unbreakable units go on, and might even win if you are really good, but the running units will not come back. Their leadership will even come back to normal levels, but they will be shattered and not return.
army loss applies when the balance of power is too heavily in one sides favour it applies a permanent -120 leadership to the entire army that is enough to break/shatter basically every unit in the game that is not unbreakable
From my understanding the number is affected by a couple of things, firstly how many units are loosing fights/ have low leadership/routing, the higher this number the more likely army loss. Death is counted on top of this, but seems to affect it much less. If you loose two thirds of your army slowly you're less likely to hit army loss. Than if you lost them in a couple of seconds. If you loose a large amount of models/hp on your army(say your fighting an 20 stack of peasants and you ram them with cav, they are very likely to be close to army losses even if they havent actually lost any units) This has been my experience, altho I won't discount that gold cost might be what is actually calculated in some kind of weird formula. As far as I've seen there are no actual records on the exact formula for army losses. I did some quick research and nothing came up. I would ask the TTWII modding community, it's much more likely they can access the formula and have more insight than I do.
My God, thanks for the video. Have 500 hours in the game, have been watching for eternity channels like Turin and ItalianSpartacus and did not know half of the things in the video. The best channel for TWW!
yes he is awesome. did u ever have a CTD problem with the game? mine is constantly CTD at end of major battles, loading saves and sometimes mid battle. no idea how to fix
Great video, there's just a couple more things I would have added I think. 1: How Army Losses Works, because we all know about things like undead armies distintigrating earlier than expected, but also about Tyrion last stands in multiplayer despite the fact that he's not unbreakable 2: How chasing off routing units works. It's common practice to chase off a unit if its leadership "naturally" breaks. You said that units will not return despite not being shattered unless their leadership comes back up. But with routing unit chases being so common, does chasing them provide an extra penalty? What distance do they have to be in to keep them from returning? Can it be literally anything as long as they can keep up i.e. skavenslaves chasing off routing executioners? What will make a unit recover if they're being chased if anything?
As long as the unit is routing, any nearby enemy will prevent rally even if that unit regain it's leadership, So you can chase them to the end of the map.
There is a guide about chasing off on this channel. Yeah, you can chase them away with anything because they are too scared to remember that their halberds can shred this trash light cav in a couple on seconds.
@@ICanHazRecon911 It has to do with the cost of the unit routing vs the cost of the unit chasing. If the cost of the unit chasing does is significantly less than the cost of the unit chasing given 1-2minutes the unit will regain their morale. However, units with low leadership -even if they cost a lot- can still be routed because there is a leadership penalty from having enemy units on the flanks. If the unit that is routing is sufficiently faster than the unit chasing the 'enemies at flanks' penalty will not apply. Vice versa, if a strong unit is chasing a weaker unit and causes significant damage to the unit routing unit the same leadership penalties for lost health and lost health in a given duration still apply. In general, 1.) don't chase with slow units because they will neither do damage or be able to run the enemy off the map. 2.) Chasing with units less than 500g is ill advised -just my anecdotal experience- because from my understanding 500g is the cut off for most units (on whatever the actual strength difference is). 3.) Chasing off units when the battle is even or you are behind is pretty much always the wrong option because you are essentially sacrificing a fast unit that can keep doing damage to the units still fight. As stated previously you want fast units to chase, which are also the units you would be using for rear charges.
Thank you so much for all the effort you put into educating us. As a somewhat recent player I feel like I owe you so much when it comes to game knowledge and how to truly understand how the game works and all that a battle here entails. Not only that, but you seem to always release videos when I feel like I would like to know more about a particular topic, was thinking yesterday what affected leadership and... here it is! Again, thank you very much hope you are doing well and I will see you in the future!
What the mechanics behind "chasing routed unit"? 1. Can we chase off terrorised unit with non terror causing unit? 2. Sometimes you can chase off routed unit even when their leadership recovered while being chased. Why?
1. Terror is not the same as a standard Break, and is actually closer to Berserk!. Terrorized units will behave the same as Broken units for the duration of the Terror, but you will regain control of a Terrorized unit eventually regardless of if they're getting chased, unless they go directly from Terror to Break/Shatter. 2. You don't immediately regain control of a Broken unit at any 1 leadership. I'm not 100% on the numbers but there are instances where broken units return to positive leadership (13-14, even) but don't rally because they're still being chased; to my knowledge Broken units need time without sustaining any damage or far enough away from enemy units to start rallying.
@@PhantomJavelin and that's why Units like warhounds or even fellbats are usefull. they won't rout the Units, but they will chase them off the Battlefield with Little to no problems
This is a really useful and precise breakdown of principles I'd largely learned to intuit. I'd love a video explaining how the armor roll works, laying out how different levels of armor non-ap damage interact--but given that this is only the second hidden stat video, I'm sure it's coming down the road!
this is really interesting. that beeing said, I wanted to prais you and also to thank you. After I heard that a Total war game of warhammer will come, I was interested in it, but unsure if I should buy it. Watching Videos from you, together with all the usefull Information you give us made my final decision. I bought the game and I love it. I am by no means a great Player, but Boy, do I have fun with this game, and I love your Videos not only because of the important Information you give us, but also because of the jokes :D
Additional tip: Shock breaking enemy units can be used to clear them entirely off the battlefield. For example if you break those elven spearmen, who would recover to have excellent leadership, put a very cheap fast unit on them to run them off (Feral cold ones, chaos warhounds, dire wolves, pistoliers in melee mode etc) as they will continue to harry them, get them attacked in the back and recent, moderate and total damage penalties, losing in combat, etc. so they wont ever recover. This can be used in conjunction with terror, artillery, spells to rout some pretty healthy, high leadership units. If they're never given time to recover they wont, and even if you have horrible MA units have something like 10-25% MD when attacked in the back- which they will be when running away. Since you can solo target artillery turning one cannon out of the unit of 3 to suppress morale on multiple units is a viable strategy as well.
Great video, but so many more questions. When does a unit shatter, besides the "3 route rule"? When does the "army losses penalty" apply? What exactly does "stronger and faster enemies nearby" mean? I have had a few times where units had this debuff when I clearly thought they were the "stronger" ones.
No one knows, the math is so hard to find, creative assembly really need to be more transparent with their stats, im almost sure that stronger and faster refers to the signal above unit heads when you press spacebar
A unit shatters when its leadership goes in thr negative higher than their base leadership. Example: Squigs have a base LS of 36. When they go to -37 LS then they are shattered. The army losses penalty is hard to explain because there are many factors contributing to it. The most influential (or easy to see) one is the balance of power. When it shifts too far in one direction army losses kick in. Its a constant -120 LS penalty which is enough to shatter most units (that have already taken damage etc.). The 'stronger units nearby' is only a buff and not a debuff afaik. It appears when e.g. a unit of spearmen fights alongside a unit of greatswords. Im not too sure on that one though.
@@nielsbertes unbreakable units are immune to the army loss penalty anyway though a army of nothing but unbreakable moral units would do just fine in the LS penalty set up. I mean I had that happen with volkmar having unbreakable when the rest of the army ran away on him and he stood his ground and fought on inflicting a lot of damage before he went down and almost turned the battle around.
@@TheManofthecross It seems fire attacks just do more dmg to regenerating units...thats all. Most vamp units dont have default regeneration and have no fire vulnerability so its not really that useful against them.
I knew globaly a lot of what you said (mechanics of morale, like the 4 s/60s and total damage+flanking, shoted by arrows/artillery) but i didnt knew the differents levels that applies such morale debuff ! Very interesting ! Even for veterans. I imagine this godlike for new players, well done, your content is amazing !
Very useful video on how to plan for fights revolving around morale. Explains why my armies were always able to route enemies easily because of fear and other factors.
Love this guide and lots of tips about things that I didn’t know despite over 2k hours ingame. Something worth mentioning though is that if you are trying to use leadership to get advantage by stacking different penalties, it is only worthwhile if you can actually break the unit. If you drop it to 5 then it has no actual effect. It’s the only stat afaik where it has no impact when it changes, only when it goes below 0. I.e. a 100LS unit fights exactly the same as the identical unit with 10LS.
So this is why tier 1 deckhands are better than tier 5 depth guard. They have more hp, therefore do not get such big leadership penaltyes as it takes more time to get damage, do not start to desintegrate and lose even more.
There is a way to lower leadership that is interesting, give an army lightning strike, then proceed to use it everytime you do a 1 on 1 battle because there is a debuff that makes the enemy "unprepared" as well outnumbered which is hilarious especially with how I fight Archon Edit:As a side note, Unprepared and Out numbered are constant debuffs and are always nice to have, but out numbered is a tricky one as that is dependant on the faction
I'm glad you've been doing so well, working on these explanation and mechanic videos. Even as someone with thousands of hours in the game, I still find out new things. Thanks again for all your work with these.
WOW So many things in this video that I have seen in action (even recently) but had no idea why they worked like that. Such great content as always! ex/1. I have cast crown of command on a unit just a second too late so it was already routing, then it had to rout for the entire duration despite being temporarily unbreakable. 2.I have noticed units that I sent round the flank are not engaged with the enemy cause I gave them a move order and not an attack order, maybe they are standing there getting shot by arrows and then when I give the attack order I notice a big jump in the leadership bar. Now I know that is the charge bonus. I doubt I would be this skilled even with twice as much playtime if it wasn't for your videos! Thank you!
Great video man! It was something I'd never really considered too hard but there's clearly a huge amount of nuance in the way you can use leadership as a weapon. Thanks!
This was absolutely fantastic. For a veteran player like me this was incredibly informative. Well done sir! I didn't know the numbers or durations. Didn't know lords and heroes gave 3 while units gave 8. Didn't know almost any of this aside from the fact that i want my leadership high and my enemies low and a few decent ways to lower it. Great video. I am now smarter after watching it.
It's so funny that the terms of wavering and routing are so confusing that even Zerkovich constantly confuses the two leading to even more confusion lol
Superb video. Incredibly useful. But... when/why do units shatter, instead of just rout? When do they rally? What about army losses? And how does this affect Undead, what exactly does "crumbling" mean for example? For such an in-depth and apparently comprehensive to not cover that stuff shows how complex this question is... what you've shown us here is great, but room for a follow-up for sure!
I probably won’t change behavior since most stuff were intuitive, and I won’t remember the numbers, it is quite informative and interesting to know the specifics. Thank you!
I picked up TW:WH again recently, and I have a lot of questions... - How do you break a unit other than by making it rout 4 times? - Playing as Tomb Kings, it seems like enemy units rally A LOT. Like, unless I send a flying unit to hound them to the end of the map they will turn around three times every time before breaking. Is that because they lose the fear debuff when they scurry out of range? - When you hit a unit with a spell, does it actually kill any of the troops in the stack or just reduce everybody's hitpoints evenly? - Aren't large, single-entity units basically ALWAYS surrounded whenever they're in melee? How does the game decide when a single entity unit is flanked?
This +3 Lord bonus makes sense in multiplayer to me. Because in campaign mode you can upgrade it via skill tree to the same +8 aura bonus and increase the aura size.
Leadership is the ONE stat that's *not* secret though, if you mouse over it!! I wish EVERY stat expanded out like that with all the detailed effects/buffs/nerfs... why couldn't they?
Been playing a Grimgor campaign with his new "Da Immortulz" banner mechanic. I managed to keep their leadership up above 50% even when their HP dropped to 500/10800. Thanks to Grimgor and 2 Black Orc Big Bosses plus the crown of command. So even though they ended the battle at less than 10%HP because not a single entity died they are at full HP at the Post-Battle results screen.
This is awesome. How about a video explaining weapon damage (flaming/piercing/vs infantry/vs large/magic) and what order they are applied, and how armor works against these. Thanks!
this is why plague claw catapults are so good vs infantry, they blast half their hp if not more, discourage debuff, hit by artilery and do that in 1 volley, instandly routing the unit
I know TW:Arena isn't really considered a total war game, but one thing i really appreciated about that game and really miss nowadays is how crisp the UI was. You always had a outline of your formation so it was much easier to determine if you were attacked in the flank or rear, which also applied to fighting enemies ofc. Besides that there were small text popups that also stated why your morale fell. So if you had a group of swordsmen that were flanked in the rear not only could you do a quick countercharge but if you were hit you also knew it was a rear charge. Imagine if in TWW2 this ui depth was present, You had outlines of your troops and if something like a troll unit came near all units affected by it would get a small popup over their banner that said feared. That would make the new player experience so much better, and i think it would help so many people. Even if they only applied in for easy difficulty
I think it'd be cool if encourage temporarily gave a penalty to you if the encouraging units routed. That way it could be a double-edged sword, and encourage people to focus on the encouraging units more.
As stated before, expendable doesn't incur "Friends Routing," to other units when they rout. However, other units that are expendable _will_ get that penalty should that expendable unit rout. For example, you have a line of goblins(expendable) and another line of orcs(not expendable), one unit of goblins rout, the other goblins may rout also. The orcs will not care. As for Meat Shield, it's just a key description to tell the player "Hey, this unit's main job is to die for your army for the greater good." Unless that unit has the "Expendable" ability, it will incur the friends routing debuff to non-expendables, although that's not common.
My biggest problem is keeping enemy units in the fight for long enough to wipe them out. No use to have every marauder horseman at half health and the unit flee when they come back next battle at full health. When im comfortable to win, i select units i do not wish to see in the next battle and rotate magic and artillery fire between them, so they can loose the debuffs before the next shot hits. Stack the debuffs and they run in 15 seconds. Do them one at a time and give them some breathing space, and you can kill much more before they run for the hills. Then there are less to worry about next time. Especialy cavalry and monster units when i lack cavalry. Rather pin and kill now i have the upper hand, then see them in a next battle with more problems...
Wasn't there also something about a unit staying routed if enemies are close by, making Warhounds and the like more useful? Or that just a side effect of them still applying something like the "attacked in the rear" debuff?
By what I understand, routed enemies will not rally as long as an enemy is close by. They'll continue to run until they're either wiped out or leave the battlefield so long as something is chasing them, even if their leadership rises above zero in the mean time. This is not incidental, it is a deliberate mechanic.
I like to think the delay to leadership is like:
Empire soldier 4th line: "Why is our leadership tanking? I can't see over this guys head."
Empire soldier 3rd line: "I can hear roars, there kind of scary."
Empire soldier 2nd line: "The guy in front of me just got eaten whole by a zombie dragon."
Empire soldier 3rd line: "Ah."
Empire soldier 4th line: "Interesting."
The entire squad: *Nope.*
Lol
Hahahaah 😄
*They're
I read that nope with tf2 Engineer voice.
Pretty much, yes. The delay is basically modeling the time it takes for the soldiers to process the Oh Shit that just occurred.
This series has existed for 20 years, yet no-one has ever bothered to actually make a detailed explanation of how this mechanic works. Thank you.
How about reading? Even in 3rd world countries a thing
@@benjyibreeg sometimes something is better explained by visualization and by an actual person, for example the terror and fear radiuses. But you just wanted to be a smartass with that comment anyway.
Some people have done this already but this guy is the most complete understanding
Leadership/morale works different in each game. In WH2 as shown it's heavily tied to inflicting casualties. In Med2 though for example you can morale shock a unit w/o dealing many causalities and break them.
We;;. the numbers weren't properly there till Shogun 2 and Empire.
Leadership? Routing? Are those some kind of being alive joke I'm too undead to understand?
It's sorta like crumbling, except you get to stay around after it happens.
Sadly, they just climax by the time I ramp my lances in for the forth time.
Kinda pathetic how the lords of undead just drop "dead" when their boys crumble.
@@foughtthelol Undead troops morale should raise after their lord drops "dead" and they should start chanting "ONE of us!"
Undead rout so hard they rout right out of existence.
One of the Ork Boyz: "Yo Wurrzag, da foot of gork smashed da lizzies leadership by 69"
Wurrzag: "Noice!"
nice
i think an orc boy would say "smashed" rather than "reduced", though. XD
Ty Joe, edited :p
This is the way.
Me watching these videos: studying intently to improve my knowledge and capabilities
Me playing the actual game: Ha Ha Rat Guns Go Brrrr!
I identify too much with this
more like: ha, Lord Kroak just wiped 4 units solo.
I mean, it's a valid tactic
mmmm... ratatat yeth yeeeth!
I mean... the Clan Skryre gunline absolutely chews through LD. Toss in some Jezzails and Warpfire Throwers and half their army runs before they get to you.
feels like the lords should have the same as the units that have encurage... feels weird that archaon don´t make people wanna stay and fight as much a bunch of aspiaring champions its like
chaos dude nr 1: look thats kholek the sun eater awsome that hes on our side right
chaos dude nr 2: nah fuck him. look at martin over there his swords glowing thats way cooler
Chaos dude nr 1: yeah you´re right now i feel insipred
They do have an aura of leadership buff. The first redline skill in most lords is to buff the aura
@@benclements4357
only when attacking right?
"Do you see Lord Archaon?"
"Of course I see Lord Archaon. The favor of the gods radiates from him like smoke from fire. I could see him from ten leagues. Also his helmet has like six feet of horn on it."
"Yes. Lord Archaon will never die. Every man and monster in this warband could fall and Lord Archaon would fight on until our bones were crushed to dust under his boots."
"Metal."
"No, I mean. Look, do you see Martin?"
"Yes, he is waving at us."
"Yes, hello Marty. Well, Martin is a champion who has known battle for 100 turns, but he is not that much greater than us. Anything that he fights, we can fight. Anything that kills him, leave to Lord Archaon."
I guess cos in campaign you can level up your lord's leadership aura to 8 or higher
Aspiring champs do have cooler looking models than the guys they're aspiring to be (exalted hero/chaos lord) for some reason.
I feel like as a Skaven player I should have known about this long ago. Great content as always.
@@villefere6968 No-fur-thing right right, no head for slice slice, vermin small stupid-thing. Mighty Skaven not exist! Can go back for long nap nap, rest in peace, no worry of stab stab.
The "Can only route thrice" thing is rather pertinant for an army that relies on leadership recovery to get the most out of its fodder.
This video is just the explanational video for why CA just kept giving Skaven more and more obnoxious guns and skills. Rather than make skaven capable of actually fighting, they just band aided them by making it so they don't have to fight to begin with. Problem solved.
@@villefere6968 in tabletop skaven are the only race that dont gets demoralized when their champion runs away from a duell, they fight keep on fighting for the glory of skavenkind. so yes they have leadership +with the right hero they have some of the highest hero they have damm good moral from their rankbonus.
Bought the latest DLC through you specifically due to content like this. Top stuff chap
I would of too but not available in Australia
:(
@@mental7630 How did you not fall off the earth just yet :D
@@mental7630 What, why isnt the DLC available in Australia? Without the gore dlc its basically harmless.
Glad I watched this because I always tend to focus on getting rid of health rather than leadership.
As he showed its a valid tactic with big stacking penalties if you can do it quickly enough, he also didn't mention the "army losses" one, but it becomes highly valuable when you mix in magic and terror. First time ive seen the actual damage numbers so its great information to have.
Tanking enemy leadership can really turn the tide of some tough battles against low-average leadership armies (skaven, humans, greenskins).
heavy shooting, melee clash + damage spell or leadership debuff, and a flank charge (especially with terror) can break an army's flank, which frees up some units you can rededicate elsewhere.
Oh no... MATH
Talk about morale loss
Flanking is also great because a unit loses 75% of its melee defense from attacks from the rear
You missed one thing: The army losses penalty. At which point does it trigger? And how big is the effect?
If army losses trigger you lose unless you have enough unbreakable units and they are able to beat what the other army has left which almost never happens.
Unsure of the exact numbers, but around 70%. Keep in mind routing units still count for active fighters, only when they are shattered or fled the battlefield are their numbers deduced from the balance of power. The effect is permanent. It causes all breakable units to turn and run. General and undamaged units might last a few seconds longer, but they too head for the hills. Then the unbreakable units go on, and might even win if you are really good, but the running units will not come back. Their leadership will even come back to normal levels, but they will be shattered and not return.
Yes, the effect is quite obvious, but the crucial question is at what point does the game decide the battle is “unwinnable” and apply the penalty?
army loss applies when the balance of power is too heavily in one sides favour
it applies a permanent -120 leadership to the entire army that is enough to break/shatter basically every unit in the game that is not unbreakable
From my understanding the number is affected by a couple of things, firstly how many units are loosing fights/ have low leadership/routing, the higher this number the more likely army loss. Death is counted on top of this, but seems to affect it much less.
If you loose two thirds of your army slowly you're less likely to hit army loss. Than if you lost them in a couple of seconds.
If you loose a large amount of models/hp on your army(say your fighting an 20 stack of peasants and you ram them with cav, they are very likely to be close to army losses even if they havent actually lost any units)
This has been my experience, altho I won't discount that gold cost might be what is actually calculated in some kind of weird formula.
As far as I've seen there are no actual records on the exact formula for army losses. I did some quick research and nothing came up. I would ask the TTWII modding community, it's much more likely they can access the formula and have more insight than I do.
My God, thanks for the video. Have 500 hours in the game, have been watching for eternity channels like Turin and ItalianSpartacus and did not know half of the things in the video.
The best channel for TWW!
yes he is awesome.
did u ever have a CTD problem with the game? mine is constantly CTD at end of major battles, loading saves and sometimes mid battle. no idea how to fix
Great video, there's just a couple more things I would have added I think.
1: How Army Losses Works, because we all know about things like undead armies distintigrating earlier than expected, but also about Tyrion last stands in multiplayer despite the fact that he's not unbreakable
2: How chasing off routing units works. It's common practice to chase off a unit if its leadership "naturally" breaks. You said that units will not return despite not being shattered unless their leadership comes back up. But with routing unit chases being so common, does chasing them provide an extra penalty? What distance do they have to be in to keep them from returning? Can it be literally anything as long as they can keep up i.e. skavenslaves chasing off routing executioners? What will make a unit recover if they're being chased if anything?
As long as the unit is routing, any nearby enemy will prevent rally even if that unit regain it's leadership, So you can chase them to the end of the map.
There is a guide about chasing off on this channel. Yeah, you can chase them away with anything because they are too scared to remember that their halberds can shred this trash light cav in a couple on seconds.
@@SMT-ks8yp Could you link me to that please?
@@knell18897 Why is that? It must be just a mechanic then rather than a leadership penalty right?
@@ICanHazRecon911 It has to do with the cost of the unit routing vs the cost of the unit chasing. If the cost of the unit chasing does is significantly less than the cost of the unit chasing given 1-2minutes the unit will regain their morale. However, units with low leadership -even if they cost a lot- can still be routed because there is a leadership penalty from having enemy units on the flanks. If the unit that is routing is sufficiently faster than the unit chasing the 'enemies at flanks' penalty will not apply. Vice versa, if a strong unit is chasing a weaker unit and causes significant damage to the unit routing unit the same leadership penalties for lost health and lost health in a given duration still apply.
In general, 1.) don't chase with slow units because they will neither do damage or be able to run the enemy off the map. 2.) Chasing with units less than 500g is ill advised -just my anecdotal experience- because from my understanding 500g is the cut off for most units (on whatever the actual strength difference is). 3.) Chasing off units when the battle is even or you are behind is pretty much always the wrong option because you are essentially sacrificing a fast unit that can keep doing damage to the units still fight. As stated previously you want fast units to chase, which are also the units you would be using for rear charges.
Oh my! The clip of that necrofex shooting at point blank. So good.
Thank you so much for all the effort you put into educating us. As a somewhat recent player I feel like I owe you so much when it comes to game knowledge and how to truly understand how the game works and all that a battle here entails. Not only that, but you seem to always release videos when I feel like I would like to know more about a particular topic, was thinking yesterday what affected leadership and... here it is! Again, thank you very much hope you are doing well and I will see you in the future!
Ze futah*
What the mechanics behind "chasing routed unit"?
1. Can we chase off terrorised unit with non terror causing unit?
2. Sometimes you can chase off routed unit even when their leadership recovered while being chased. Why?
1. Terror is not the same as a standard Break, and is actually closer to Berserk!. Terrorized units will behave the same as Broken units for the duration of the Terror, but you will regain control of a Terrorized unit eventually regardless of if they're getting chased, unless they go directly from Terror to Break/Shatter.
2. You don't immediately regain control of a Broken unit at any 1 leadership. I'm not 100% on the numbers but there are instances where broken units return to positive leadership (13-14, even) but don't rally because they're still being chased; to my knowledge Broken units need time without sustaining any damage or far enough away from enemy units to start rallying.
@@PhantomJavelin and that's why Units like warhounds or even fellbats are usefull. they won't rout the Units, but they will chase them off the Battlefield with Little to no problems
@@Dr.AvenVon also free kills and possibly wipe.
This is a really useful and precise breakdown of principles I'd largely learned to intuit. I'd love a video explaining how the armor roll works, laying out how different levels of armor non-ap damage interact--but given that this is only the second hidden stat video, I'm sure it's coming down the road!
'If you see a man flying at you on a giant griffin 90 m/h speed, you'll probably shit yourself' 😂
this is really interesting. that beeing said, I wanted to prais you and also to thank you. After I heard that a Total war game of warhammer will come, I was interested in it, but unsure if I should buy it. Watching Videos from you, together with all the usefull Information you give us made my final decision. I bought the game and I love it. I am by no means a great Player, but Boy, do I have fun with this game, and I love your Videos not only because of the important Information you give us, but also because of the jokes :D
Appreciate your support man. Glad I can be of service!
Additional tip:
Shock breaking enemy units can be used to clear them entirely off the battlefield. For example if you break those elven spearmen, who would recover to have excellent leadership, put a very cheap fast unit on them to run them off (Feral cold ones, chaos warhounds, dire wolves, pistoliers in melee mode etc) as they will continue to harry them, get them attacked in the back and recent, moderate and total damage penalties, losing in combat, etc. so they wont ever recover. This can be used in conjunction with terror, artillery, spells to rout some pretty healthy, high leadership units. If they're never given time to recover they wont, and even if you have horrible MA units have something like 10-25% MD when attacked in the back- which they will be when running away.
Since you can solo target artillery turning one cannon out of the unit of 3 to suppress morale on multiple units is a viable strategy as well.
Great video, but so many more questions.
When does a unit shatter, besides the "3 route rule"?
When does the "army losses penalty" apply?
What exactly does "stronger and faster enemies nearby" mean? I have had a few times where units had this debuff when I clearly thought they were the "stronger" ones.
No one knows, the math is so hard to find, creative assembly really need to be more transparent with their stats, im almost sure that stronger and faster refers to the signal above unit heads when you press spacebar
A unit shatters when its leadership goes in thr negative higher than their base leadership. Example: Squigs have a base LS of 36. When they go to -37 LS then they are shattered.
The army losses penalty is hard to explain because there are many factors contributing to it. The most influential (or easy to see) one is the balance of power. When it shifts too far in one direction army losses kick in. Its a constant -120 LS penalty which is enough to shatter most units (that have already taken damage etc.).
The 'stronger units nearby' is only a buff and not a debuff afaik. It appears when e.g. a unit of spearmen fights alongside a unit of greatswords. Im not too sure on that one though.
@@nielsbertes I have only seen Faster and Steonger as a debuff.
@@nielsbertes unbreakable units are immune to the army loss penalty anyway though a army of nothing but unbreakable moral units would do just fine in the LS penalty set up. I mean I had that happen with volkmar having unbreakable when the rest of the army ran away on him and he stood his ground and fought on inflicting a lot of damage before he went down and almost turned the battle around.
"When a unit goes into battle, it will likely loose some of that HP"
**laughs in Life lore of magic**
"When a unit goes into battle, it will likely sustain heavy casualties"
**evil laugh in lore of vampires**
@@cobrazax *brings in fire attacks and other stuff that inflicts fire damage against said vampires etc.* now laugh at that son. :P
idk if fire attacks can null and void life lore magic. but if it can then that's a oof.
@@TheManofthecross
It seems fire attacks just do more dmg to regenerating units...thats all.
Most vamp units dont have default regeneration and have no fire vulnerability so its not really that useful against them.
@@cobrazax that so?
I knew globaly a lot of what you said (mechanics of morale, like the 4 s/60s and total damage+flanking, shoted by arrows/artillery) but i didnt knew the differents levels that applies such morale debuff ! Very interesting ! Even for veterans. I imagine this godlike for new players, well done, your content is amazing !
"Oh Scheisse"....love it :) And as a german i can tell your pronounciation is really good.
Very useful video on how to plan for fights revolving around morale.
Explains why my armies were always able to route enemies easily because of fear and other factors.
Love this guide and lots of tips about things that I didn’t know despite over 2k hours ingame.
Something worth mentioning though is that if you are trying to use leadership to get advantage by stacking different penalties, it is only worthwhile if you can actually break the unit. If you drop it to 5 then it has no actual effect. It’s the only stat afaik where it has no impact when it changes, only when it goes below 0. I.e. a 100LS unit fights exactly the same as the identical unit with 10LS.
Excellent video, leadership is tricky for many players to follow and I think this is the clearest video I've seen on it yet. Really well done
I've been playing this game for a long time, and I still learned a lot from this video.
One little additional aspect is that the penalty from a lord fled is only temporary and will go away competently unlike when they die.
So this is why tier 1 deckhands are better than tier 5 depth guard.
They have more hp, therefore do not get such big leadership penaltyes as it takes more time to get damage, do not start to desintegrate and lose even more.
There is a way to lower leadership that is interesting, give an army lightning strike, then proceed to use it everytime you do a 1 on 1 battle because there is a debuff that makes the enemy "unprepared" as well outnumbered which is hilarious especially with how I fight Archon
Edit:As a side note, Unprepared and Out numbered are constant debuffs and are always nice to have, but out numbered is a tricky one as that is dependant on the faction
I'm glad you've been doing so well, working on these explanation and mechanic videos. Even as someone with thousands of hours in the game, I still find out new things. Thanks again for all your work with these.
WOW So many things in this video that I have seen in action (even recently) but had no idea why they worked like that. Such great content as always!
ex/1. I have cast crown of command on a unit just a second too late so it was already routing, then it had to rout for the entire duration despite being temporarily unbreakable.
2.I have noticed units that I sent round the flank are not engaged with the enemy cause I gave them a move order and not an attack order, maybe they are standing there getting shot by arrows and then when I give the attack order I notice a big jump in the leadership bar. Now I know that is the charge bonus.
I doubt I would be this skilled even with twice as much playtime if it wasn't for your videos! Thank you!
Hitting us with facts and figures! Few of those buffs / debuffs i never even noticed. Top video mate
Great video man!
It was something I'd never really considered too hard but there's clearly a huge amount of nuance in the way you can use leadership as a weapon.
Thanks!
Your videos have been very useful, but this is probably the most enlightening one by far.
I'm much more intrigued about all this gameplay now with all these tips and explanations you provide! Cheers man!
This was absolutely fantastic. For a veteran player like me this was incredibly informative. Well done sir!
I didn't know the numbers or durations. Didn't know lords and heroes gave 3 while units gave 8. Didn't know almost any of this aside from the fact that i want my leadership high and my enemies low and a few decent ways to lower it. Great video. I am now smarter after watching it.
Truly the most superior comprehensive guides on TWW from bite to meal sizes.
Yes excellent video! I’ve been playing for ages and I still found this incredibly useful! Thankyou for putting this together!
This vid is introduced as Best Guide Video in South Korean Total War community. So useful.
It's so funny that the terms of wavering and routing are so confusing that even Zerkovich constantly confuses the two leading to even more confusion lol
I literally watch your videos over and over again because they are so dam good. Another great and informative video Zerkovich.
Appreciate the support my man!
Superb video. Incredibly useful.
But... when/why do units shatter, instead of just rout? When do they rally? What about army losses? And how does this affect Undead, what exactly does "crumbling" mean for example?
For such an in-depth and apparently comprehensive to not cover that stuff shows how complex this question is... what you've shown us here is great, but room for a follow-up for sure!
Thank you for this Zerk. As always you are the man.
This video was great thanks. Lots of things that I kind of understood given a lot more detail.
8:35 "Look at these Chaos Warriors beating the crap out of my flatulence"
-Me, a Mexican food lover
Dog that work at 0:16 was epic
Awesome information, man. Thank you!
Every day is a learning day. We love you Daddy Zerk!
Wow, I learned something. I had a pretty good intuitive handle on leadership, but not in that precise fidelity. Thanks for posting!
Good video, really good voice and easy to listen to. Bravo bud.
I probably won’t change behavior since most stuff were intuitive, and I won’t remember the numbers, it is quite informative and interesting to know the specifics. Thank you!
thanks for breaking it down. very helpful!
*Grunt* Dwarfs crumbling, Orcs Running, Zerkovich got another one coming.
Brilliant video and very well broken down. Thanks very much!
that's a fantastic video Zerk :0 Many things I did not know
I picked up TW:WH again recently, and I have a lot of questions...
- How do you break a unit other than by making it rout 4 times?
- Playing as Tomb Kings, it seems like enemy units rally A LOT. Like, unless I send a flying unit to hound them to the end of the map they will turn around three times every time before breaking. Is that because they lose the fear debuff when they scurry out of range?
- When you hit a unit with a spell, does it actually kill any of the troops in the stack or just reduce everybody's hitpoints evenly?
- Aren't large, single-entity units basically ALWAYS surrounded whenever they're in melee? How does the game decide when a single entity unit is flanked?
One of the most important videos ive seen for improving my gameplay. Though i still cant compose armies good enough not to be the one running in fear.
if you are looking for efficient campaign armies, I'd like to point you at legendoftotalwar's channel. lots of useful stuff to learn there :-)
Best leadership explanation video
Really good vid, one of your best.
excellent video, learnt a lot... gr8 presentation as well, kudos!
This +3 Lord bonus makes sense in multiplayer to me. Because in campaign mode you can upgrade it via skill tree to the same +8 aura bonus and increase the aura size.
Great video! A very important part of the game very well explained!!
Btw are you going to continue with the noobs guide? Those videos helped a lot!
Leadership is the ONE stat that's *not* secret though, if you mouse over it!! I wish EVERY stat expanded out like that with all the detailed effects/buffs/nerfs... why couldn't they?
Awesome vid. Thanks for clearing up the mysteries of the game.
I've waited for something like this for a long time - finally it is there, thank you! :)
Well played sir... well played!
Been playing a Grimgor campaign with his new "Da Immortulz" banner mechanic. I managed to keep their leadership up above 50% even when their HP dropped to 500/10800. Thanks to Grimgor and 2 Black Orc Big Bosses plus the crown of command. So even though they ended the battle at less than 10%HP because not a single entity died they are at full HP at the Post-Battle results screen.
Didn't even watch the video yet but THANK YOU ! I already liked the video :)
Good video. I think it should've covered the army loss penalty to leadership as well.
Really great content man, very informative!
This is once again critical information. Its good to know the numbers im working with.
i learned a lot in this video, it also re enforced my love of regenerating health\healing units, they will run less since their health comes back. :)
This is awesome. How about a video explaining weapon damage (flaming/piercing/vs infantry/vs large/magic) and what order they are applied, and how armor works against these. Thanks!
Amazing content, thank you for the effort you put into your videos, so detailed
Awesome stuff, I really enjoy this sort of comprehensive dive into the mechanic. Could you by chance explain how mass routing happens?
That explains why Queen Bess can nearly one shot rank and file.
Also the explosions are awesome
Griffon flying towards you🤣😂, too funny
this is why plague claw catapults are so good vs infantry, they blast half their hp if not more, discourage debuff, hit by artilery and do that in 1 volley, instandly routing the unit
thank you for making these videos
Greetings from Poland Bro. I watch all your films about Warhammer 2 Total War :)
"If you see a man flying at you on a giant gryffon at 900mph, you'd probably shit yourself"
I know TW:Arena isn't really considered a total war game, but one thing i really appreciated about that game and really miss nowadays is how crisp the UI was.
You always had a outline of your formation so it was much easier to determine if you were attacked in the flank or rear, which also applied to fighting enemies ofc. Besides that there were small text popups that also stated why your morale fell. So if you had a group of swordsmen that were flanked in the rear not only could you do a quick countercharge but if you were hit you also knew it was a rear charge. Imagine if in TWW2 this ui depth was present, You had outlines of your troops and if something like a troll unit came near all units affected by it would get a small popup over their banner that said feared. That would make the new player experience so much better, and i think it would help so many people. Even if they only applied in for easy difficulty
Another helpful video, thank you Zerkovich
Realy good stuff there !
I think it'd be cool if encourage temporarily gave a penalty to you if the encouraging units routed. That way it could be a double-edged sword, and encourage people to focus on the encouraging units more.
Lord Dead: -10
Flanked: - 5
Damage Sustained: - 11
OTHER: +32
Thanks CA, I know exactly what's going on 👍
Great video as always
Excellent video.
Amazing work 👌👍
Please do ranged accuray, firing arc, and friendly fire next. Nice video btw
Very helpful, thank you.
Very helpful. Could you explain expendable and meatshield units?
Friends routing penalty. Most units cause this to friendly units when they rout. Except expendable units. Nobody cares if they die :(
As far as I know meatshield is a describer for a unit that is good at absorbing damage. It has no bearing on leadership I think.
As stated before, expendable doesn't incur "Friends Routing," to other units when they rout. However, other units that are expendable _will_ get that penalty should that expendable unit rout.
For example, you have a line of goblins(expendable) and another line of orcs(not expendable), one unit of goblins rout, the other goblins may rout also. The orcs will not care.
As for Meat Shield, it's just a key description to tell the player "Hey, this unit's main job is to die for your army for the greater good." Unless that unit has the "Expendable" ability, it will incur the friends routing debuff to non-expendables, although that's not common.
@@Zerkovich other Expendables do... Have one unit of skavenslaves break and see the rest join the flight.
My biggest problem is keeping enemy units in the fight for long enough to wipe them out. No use to have every marauder horseman at half health and the unit flee when they come back next battle at full health. When im comfortable to win, i select units i do not wish to see in the next battle and rotate magic and artillery fire between them, so they can loose the debuffs before the next shot hits. Stack the debuffs and they run in 15 seconds. Do them one at a time and give them some breathing space, and you can kill much more before they run for the hills. Then there are less to worry about next time. Especialy cavalry and monster units when i lack cavalry. Rather pin and kill now i have the upper hand, then see them in a next battle with more problems...
Wow I'm so early... great vid. I just wish total war would fix the diplomacy issues.
Wasn't there also something about a unit staying routed if enemies are close by, making Warhounds and the like more useful? Or that just a side effect of them still applying something like the "attacked in the rear" debuff?
By what I understand, routed enemies will not rally as long as an enemy is close by. They'll continue to run until they're either wiped out or leave the battlefield so long as something is chasing them, even if their leadership rises above zero in the mean time. This is not incidental, it is a deliberate mechanic.
very good video. thank you!
0:00 to 0:08 the orc on the right was gonna attack the poor dawi, and we like "meh, maybe not worse the trouble"