One of the obvious questions not addressed here is how you will provide a framework for your children to follow based on nothing more than "I don't know" or "try to be the best person you can be". It is very possible that since you don't have a powerful framework to share with them that they will simply adopt the powerful meaning making "religious" frameworks that have answers (ie. based on power dynamics, see Jonathan Streeter) that are available in the broader culture. Jordan Peterson has recognized this fact as well as John Vervaeke. Ayaan Ali's recent conversion to Christianity was largely catalyzed by this.
This was a good example of a conversation attempting to understand each other despite differences in beliefs. Bravo! I had many thoughts on what was said, especially on the topic of epistemology, but this isn’t the format to type it all out. However, yesterday I heard Iain Mcgilchrist say something thought provoking, which was “I’m not interested in certainty anymore, I’m interested in the shape of things that speak to me as real.” This was after explaining what your guest touched on a little, which is that there is always level of uncertainty in belief systems, and I would add, ANY beliefs at all. And I’m starting to be ok with that.
I think that videos like this are important. I often think that both those who choose to stay and those who choose to leave misunderstand each other. I have a lot of respect for Marti, who I would like to think of as an internet friend. While it is natural to believe that one's own experience must reflect the general experience of others, I think most people overestimate to what degree others share our personal motivations. So often when trying to understand others behavior we assume they are motivated by what would cause us to behave that way. It is important to try and accept people for their own motivations and experiences, and not just assume they are twisted versions of ourselves. Many times, in conversations in You Tube comment pages other people tell me what they know I believe, no matter how often I say that their assumptions are incorrect. I understand that they assume all active/faithful members (I don't really like either term) must believe the same things they did when they were. At the same times I see many apologists make equally silly assumptions about those that have left. They imagine the circumstances that would cause them to leave and assume those are the only possible motivations. Even within the Church too often people assume everyone must have the same beliefs and culture. I watch many LDS podcasts that describe a culture I do not understand. I live in a suburb of Detroit. In my ward not only is the Bishop African-American, 1/3 of the families are either mixed race or people of color. Over 90% of the new baptisms in the last five years were people of color. We have both English and Spanish Sunday School classes and are talking about starting a French language Sunday School due to the large number of African refugees in our Ward. Suffice it to say that one cannot avoid topics on race and the priesthood. My Institute Director who later became Stake President and Stake Patriarch, taught us about Seer Stones, and Joseph Smith's Polygamy back in the 1980s. He had copies of View of the Hebrews and Manuscript Found to lend to interested students. He believed in the BH Roberts model of inoculating people about difficult subjects. Which I think more Institutes and Seminaries should have been doing. My Bishop when I was in Young Men's was a former Marine with full sleaves of tattoos. This was in the early 80s. He never hide them, although he did express regret about them. Another Bishop was an ex-biker with just as many tattoos and a full beard that he shaved the morning he was set apart, and regrew after he was released. Watching Saints Unscripted or Brothaz in the Foyer that does not seem to be how many members have experienced the gospel.
Great interview! I've been a Marti fan for a couple of years, so it was really good to hear more of her story. If I had to choose one Post-Mormon Podcaster whose thoughts on things were closest to mine, it would definitely be Marti. I like her nuance, her open mindedness, her big heart for those who still believe. I resonate strongly with the way she described her quest to just continuing growing and being the best version of herself each day. Even the way she described her thoughts on God and "truth" being bigger than LDS doctrine allows aligns with my current way of thinking. Murph, you did an excellent job asking the right questions and giving Marti the spotlight.
1:46:00 I have an answer to this question that I hope is a useful addition to Marti's own answer. I think the answer to this question becomes one of the more compelling challenges to the truth claims of the church and classical theism broadly, but we'll get there. To get me back into the church, the first step would probably be to have the claim that a god or gods exist meet its burden of proof. Then, have the truth claims about the Abrahamic god, Jesus of Nazareth, etc. meet their respective burdens of proof. Next, demonstrate that Joseph Smith accurately translated an ancient record of Hebraic Americans and show that the truth claims of that record are true. Then, demonstrate that Joseph Smith maintained a prophetic calling until his death, that Brigham Young was his rightful successor, that John Taylor, Wilford Woodruff, Lorenzo Snow, and so on are rightful successors with true authority. Show that Russell Nelson or current leader at time of demonstration is also a rightful successor. Show that current leader is exercising authority and responsibilities they are sustained to. Do all of that, and I will accept that the church is true. Activity in it may be a different story, but I would at least accept that it is true, and I would defend its truth claims when challenged. Now, for the issue. If the Elohim of Mormon theology exists, then he knows what it would take to convince me of all of these issues, he has the power to do it, and he is sufficiently loving to want me to do it. And he can do all of that in a way that preserves my agency. After all, we supposedly had agency in the premortal life, right? This is the problem of divine hiddenness, and it's a huge issue for LDS theology and classical theism broadly. I would even go so far as to contend that the failure or refusal of any existing interventionist god to meet the burden of proof for its mere existence restricts agency to follow it, which is supposed to be Satan's plan. An increase in knowledge increases agency. Restricting knowledge restricts agency. That's pretty well the thesis of 2 Nephi 2 and its theodicy.
2:04:30 This kinda touches on the answer to another to a corollary question. The parent comment here deals with what it would take for me to believe in the claims of the church again. But there's a sort of unconnected question of what would it take for me to participate in the church again. And this idea of having a space for contrarianism, or rather, a space to engage with the difficult issues that does not need to vector in a "faithful" direction would be a huge step in getting me back into a pew. I comment on these videos because I enjoy Mormonism. I love talking about it, learning about it, discussing it. Mormonism is a lot of fun. But the lack of a space to engage with others on the challenging issues, or the constant need to validate "faithful view", even when it's silly or blatantly incorrect, is a problem for me. But I would be there on Sundays, for sure, if I could discuss these issues fully, plainly, and without reservation.
2:07:00 I don't disagree with you at all. However, that's kinda the church's own fault. They drew the lines in the sand. They took a side. They made it a part of their identity. They created the black and white binaries. I have a hard time giving sympathy to the institutional church on this issue. They made this cake, so they can eat it too.
I'm an active non-member, who doesn't literally believe in god, but both of my daughters got baptized - after I went over every single critique of the church with them. I wanted to expose them to all the faith breaking possibilities before they took the dip, and hopefully, that helps them have a stronger testimony. They know mom and dad don't believe, and that it's okay if people you love and respect don't have the same literal belief that you do. I know not everyone can be a metaphorical mormon (for some people, it has to be literally true to be important enough to be active in the church), but for me, I heartily recommend that every atheist find their local ward, and start going to sacrament meetings. Obviously, the LDS church isn't perfect, but it is an institution that has built a very admirable and powerful culture.
My wife’s experience with the LDS faith was the opposite. Once she became a pregnant unmarried teen in a small town she was ostracized and treated like garbage. Her true friends (all not LDS) stayed by her side as she had to make difficult decisions. All her LDS friends were judgmental and abandoned her. She left Mormonism right then and still 40 years later talks about the toxic judgement culture. I’ve never been LDS but once I learned they believed in 3 levels of heaven then it became very clear where the judgement culture comes from. It’s a clearly judgment based faith.
@@Zeett09 I'm sorry your wife had such a bad experience so many decades ago. Whether or not it reflected the church overall at the time or since, it certainly doesn't seem christ like to me, as an atheist looking from the outside in. Judgment is of course important, but atonement and repentance must be paired with it. It could be that my experience of welcome and acceptance is an anomaly, or perhaps the church culture has changed dramatically in 40 years, or maybe I get a pass because I'm not a member - nonetheless, I've felt more harsh judgment and ostracization from my secular atheist "friends" who want to cancel anyone who deviates from the woke orthodoxy. Maybe poor judgment culture can infect all kinds of groups of humans. It certainly isn't pleasant to endure, especially if there is no path to redemption.
@@JereKrischel yeah. Every experience is different. I went from Catholic to non religious 40 years ago but my almost 20 years in Catholicism were overall great. I did not witness judgement from members to members. My wife was in a 90% Mormon small town. So that might be part of the issue. She was lucky as her parents supported her, were outraged by the LDS judgement, and they left the church too. They did eventually drift back after about 20 years away mostly for the community.
@@Zeett09 Small world - I was baptized catholic by a very devout grandmother who fought alongside MacArthur in the Philippines, but it never took :). Went full blown atheist in 1st grade, and didn't start realizing that the christians who would argue with me were actually trying to save my eternal soul until my 20s. I'm not sure if there is any effective secular alternative to church when it comes to spending regular time with a broad cross-section of your neighbors - so I get the going back for community. I even recommend to all my atheist friends to find a local ward/church/whatever, and just start going every week - if you don't have literal faith, just look at the metaphors and try to find common ground there, so you at least have some regular contact with people nearby. It's very easy in this modern world to live next door to someone for 20 years and never have a meal with them even once. Church puts me in contact with people I might never get a chance to get to know, all within a reasonable distance from my house. I've picked mormons to hang out with, but my bet is that there is utility even if you choose to hang out with catholics, or baptists, or other christian sects. And if you're not attached strongly to any given sect, you can shop around and find a local church that has the right vibe for you.
@@JereKrischel We joined a bowling league near our home. It frankly surprised me the level of friendships developed with a lovely community atmosphere. We have several awesome new friends thanks to bowling. Don’t get me wrong we had awesome friends and acquaintances within my Catholic sphere while I was a member. We just purposefully found alternative means to meet great people. Hobbies provide an awesome conduit for that. Church, any church, just doesn’t provide that vibe anymore. It really does for so many so I absolutely am not criticizing it.
41:50 Like Marti, I remember also going through this phase. You don't want to lie or misrepresent the state of your troubled belief, but you also don't want to tip anyone off, so you end up speaking in a sort of "legalese". For example, instead of, "I believe Joseph Smith was a prophet", you say, "The Church teaches us that Joseph Smith was a prophet" thereby obscuring your own doubts through careful wording. Thing is, once you've done this yourself, you can sometimes pick up on other people doing it too.
I guess I don’t understand why bother saying anything like it at all? Don’t say anything about Joseph smith or about prophets at all if there isn’t a testimony of it.
@@kristinrichmond8185 Because you may be around believers that talk about these things all the time and then they will suspect you of not being one of them if you are not careful.
@@jonny6man again, why does it matter if you are around people who believe differently than you. I’m around people who believe differently than me and it doesn’t bother me if they believe differently. I also think it doesn’t bother them that I don’t share their beliefs. I don’t get it.
@kristinrichmond8185 Oh, okay. Just as an example, the moment my in-laws realized I was no longer a believer, they thought I never believed in the first place or that I wanted to sin. Now they think I'm deceived by Satan and anything I say they treat as suspicious or that I have ulterior motives. In addition, the judgment is very noticeable and not pleasant.
@@jonny6man I’m so sorry that you’ve experienced that. They should strive to be as understanding of you as possible and strive to show love. I hope you can understand that we are all imperfect people trying to be better, even if it doesn’t look that way. Sometimes we just gotta meet people where they are at. I’m still a believer, but I never want anyone to feel like they have to pretend around me so they aren’t “found out”. And I try to treat all people with respect, even if we differ in beliefs.
I am so glad to hear an xmormon without an agenda. I love this Chanel because it is tolerant and open minded. I think we all need to be able to listen to others w8thout feeling defensive. The beauty comes from diversity.
I resonate a lot with Marty and she has articulated things that I did have words for but instantly realized that I had the same thoughts. Probably more so than most ex Mormon content creators. I like to thing it may be because of having an engineering background. We get trained to think a certain way, for better or for worse. Also this kind of crossover is much needed. Thanks to both of you.
1:00:30ish Marti mentioned the GC talk prescribing a balance in one’s research during a faith crisis. Once again taking zero accountability and shaming and super gaslighty. I mean, as members, I’ll speak for myself, ALL of my life 44 years studying LDS everything, from the church provided sources. So in reality oa balance of information has never been their concern. I had 44 years worth of gospel study to balance out. That request is garbage!!!
It's funny, I guess maybe I have some resentment against the secular mainstream culture that told me for so many years lies about the faithful - that they were backwards, bigoted, ignorant, stupid, or malicious. I feel like the lies told by the secular culture are of a different quality than "lies" told by faithful culture. I find that even though I don't believe any of Mormon doctrine literally, I still find value in the narratives they live by. Although, I'm an old-school, pre-1900, still drinking coffee metaphorical mormon :)
The best thing you can do is to actually put faith in the Old and New Testament, especially Isaiah 43:10, “ “Ye are My witnesses,” saith the Lord, “and My servant whom I have chosen, that ye may know and believe Me, and understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after Me.” This is fundamental to the true “Christian Faith”. Also, feel the assurance of eternal life and never having to wonder if you’ve “done enough” through your works. Ephesians 2:8-9 “8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.” God be with you🙏
Thanks for the chat!
-Marti
One of the obvious questions not addressed here is how you will provide a framework for your children to follow based on nothing more than "I don't know" or "try to be the best person you can be". It is very possible that since you don't have a powerful framework to share with them that they will simply adopt the powerful meaning making "religious" frameworks that have answers (ie. based on power dynamics, see Jonathan Streeter) that are available in the broader culture. Jordan Peterson has recognized this fact as well as John Vervaeke. Ayaan Ali's recent conversion to Christianity was largely catalyzed by this.
Hugh Ross, listening to him has been helpful for me for belief in God (not LDS specific, but God of Bible)
That first sound byte is relatable
This was a good example of a conversation attempting to understand each other despite differences in beliefs. Bravo! I had many thoughts on what was said, especially on the topic of epistemology, but this isn’t the format to type it all out. However, yesterday I heard Iain Mcgilchrist say something thought provoking, which was “I’m not interested in certainty anymore, I’m interested in the shape of things that speak to me as real.” This was after explaining what your guest touched on a little, which is that there is always level of uncertainty in belief systems, and I would add, ANY beliefs at all. And I’m starting to be ok with that.
I think that videos like this are important. I often think that both those who choose to stay and those who choose to leave misunderstand each other. I have a lot of respect for Marti, who I would like to think of as an internet friend.
While it is natural to believe that one's own experience must reflect the general experience of others, I think most people overestimate to what degree others share our personal motivations. So often when trying to understand others behavior we assume they are motivated by what would cause us to behave that way. It is important to try and accept people for their own motivations and experiences, and not just assume they are twisted versions of ourselves.
Many times, in conversations in You Tube comment pages other people tell me what they know I believe, no matter how often I say that their assumptions are incorrect. I understand that they assume all active/faithful members (I don't really like either term) must believe the same things they did when they were.
At the same times I see many apologists make equally silly assumptions about those that have left. They imagine the circumstances that would cause them to leave and assume those are the only possible motivations.
Even within the Church too often people assume everyone must have the same beliefs and culture. I watch many LDS podcasts that describe a culture I do not understand. I live in a suburb of Detroit. In my ward not only is the Bishop African-American, 1/3 of the families are either mixed race or people of color. Over 90% of the new baptisms in the last five years were people of color. We have both English and Spanish Sunday School classes and are talking about starting a French language Sunday School due to the large number of African refugees in our Ward.
Suffice it to say that one cannot avoid topics on race and the priesthood.
My Institute Director who later became Stake President and Stake Patriarch, taught us about Seer Stones, and Joseph Smith's Polygamy back in the 1980s. He had copies of View of the Hebrews and Manuscript Found to lend to interested students. He believed in the BH Roberts model of inoculating people about difficult subjects. Which I think more Institutes and Seminaries should have been doing.
My Bishop when I was in Young Men's was a former Marine with full sleaves of tattoos. This was in the early 80s. He never hide them, although he did express regret about them. Another Bishop was an ex-biker with just as many tattoos and a full beard that he shaved the morning he was set apart, and regrew after he was released.
Watching Saints Unscripted or Brothaz in the Foyer that does not seem to be how many members have experienced the gospel.
I would consider you a friend too!
-Marti
Great interview! I've been a Marti fan for a couple of years, so it was really good to hear more of her story. If I had to choose one Post-Mormon Podcaster whose thoughts on things were closest to mine, it would definitely be Marti. I like her nuance, her open mindedness, her big heart for those who still believe. I resonate strongly with the way she described her quest to just continuing growing and being the best version of herself each day. Even the way she described her thoughts on God and "truth" being bigger than LDS doctrine allows aligns with my current way of thinking. Murph, you did an excellent job asking the right questions and giving Marti the spotlight.
Thank you, I agree with your thoughts on Marti and glad you enjoyed the interview
1:46:00 I have an answer to this question that I hope is a useful addition to Marti's own answer. I think the answer to this question becomes one of the more compelling challenges to the truth claims of the church and classical theism broadly, but we'll get there.
To get me back into the church, the first step would probably be to have the claim that a god or gods exist meet its burden of proof.
Then, have the truth claims about the Abrahamic god, Jesus of Nazareth, etc. meet their respective burdens of proof.
Next, demonstrate that Joseph Smith accurately translated an ancient record of Hebraic Americans and show that the truth claims of that record are true.
Then, demonstrate that Joseph Smith maintained a prophetic calling until his death, that Brigham Young was his rightful successor, that John Taylor, Wilford Woodruff, Lorenzo Snow, and so on are rightful successors with true authority. Show that Russell Nelson or current leader at time of demonstration is also a rightful successor. Show that current leader is exercising authority and responsibilities they are sustained to.
Do all of that, and I will accept that the church is true. Activity in it may be a different story, but I would at least accept that it is true, and I would defend its truth claims when challenged.
Now, for the issue. If the Elohim of Mormon theology exists, then he knows what it would take to convince me of all of these issues, he has the power to do it, and he is sufficiently loving to want me to do it. And he can do all of that in a way that preserves my agency. After all, we supposedly had agency in the premortal life, right? This is the problem of divine hiddenness, and it's a huge issue for LDS theology and classical theism broadly.
I would even go so far as to contend that the failure or refusal of any existing interventionist god to meet the burden of proof for its mere existence restricts agency to follow it, which is supposed to be Satan's plan. An increase in knowledge increases agency. Restricting knowledge restricts agency. That's pretty well the thesis of 2 Nephi 2 and its theodicy.
2:04:30 This kinda touches on the answer to another to a corollary question. The parent comment here deals with what it would take for me to believe in the claims of the church again. But there's a sort of unconnected question of what would it take for me to participate in the church again.
And this idea of having a space for contrarianism, or rather, a space to engage with the difficult issues that does not need to vector in a "faithful" direction would be a huge step in getting me back into a pew. I comment on these videos because I enjoy Mormonism. I love talking about it, learning about it, discussing it. Mormonism is a lot of fun. But the lack of a space to engage with others on the challenging issues, or the constant need to validate "faithful view", even when it's silly or blatantly incorrect, is a problem for me.
But I would be there on Sundays, for sure, if I could discuss these issues fully, plainly, and without reservation.
2:07:00 I don't disagree with you at all. However, that's kinda the church's own fault. They drew the lines in the sand. They took a side. They made it a part of their identity. They created the black and white binaries. I have a hard time giving sympathy to the institutional church on this issue. They made this cake, so they can eat it too.
I'm an active non-member, who doesn't literally believe in god, but both of my daughters got baptized - after I went over every single critique of the church with them. I wanted to expose them to all the faith breaking possibilities before they took the dip, and hopefully, that helps them have a stronger testimony. They know mom and dad don't believe, and that it's okay if people you love and respect don't have the same literal belief that you do.
I know not everyone can be a metaphorical mormon (for some people, it has to be literally true to be important enough to be active in the church), but for me, I heartily recommend that every atheist find their local ward, and start going to sacrament meetings.
Obviously, the LDS church isn't perfect, but it is an institution that has built a very admirable and powerful culture.
My wife’s experience with the LDS faith was the opposite. Once she became a pregnant unmarried teen in a small town she was ostracized and treated like garbage. Her true friends (all not LDS) stayed by her side as she had to make difficult decisions. All her LDS friends were judgmental and abandoned her. She left Mormonism right then and still 40 years later talks about the toxic judgement culture. I’ve never been LDS but once I learned they believed in 3 levels of heaven then it became very clear where the judgement culture comes from. It’s a clearly judgment based faith.
@@Zeett09 I'm sorry your wife had such a bad experience so many decades ago. Whether or not it reflected the church overall at the time or since, it certainly doesn't seem christ like to me, as an atheist looking from the outside in.
Judgment is of course important, but atonement and repentance must be paired with it.
It could be that my experience of welcome and acceptance is an anomaly, or perhaps the church culture has changed dramatically in 40 years, or maybe I get a pass because I'm not a member - nonetheless, I've felt more harsh judgment and ostracization from my secular atheist "friends" who want to cancel anyone who deviates from the woke orthodoxy.
Maybe poor judgment culture can infect all kinds of groups of humans. It certainly isn't pleasant to endure, especially if there is no path to redemption.
@@JereKrischel yeah. Every experience is different. I went from Catholic to non religious 40 years ago but my almost 20 years in Catholicism were overall great. I did not witness judgement from members to members. My wife was in a 90% Mormon small town. So that might be part of the issue. She was lucky as her parents supported her, were outraged by the LDS judgement, and they left the church too. They did eventually drift back after about 20 years away mostly for the community.
@@Zeett09 Small world - I was baptized catholic by a very devout grandmother who fought alongside MacArthur in the Philippines, but it never took :). Went full blown atheist in 1st grade, and didn't start realizing that the christians who would argue with me were actually trying to save my eternal soul until my 20s.
I'm not sure if there is any effective secular alternative to church when it comes to spending regular time with a broad cross-section of your neighbors - so I get the going back for community. I even recommend to all my atheist friends to find a local ward/church/whatever, and just start going every week - if you don't have literal faith, just look at the metaphors and try to find common ground there, so you at least have some regular contact with people nearby. It's very easy in this modern world to live next door to someone for 20 years and never have a meal with them even once.
Church puts me in contact with people I might never get a chance to get to know, all within a reasonable distance from my house. I've picked mormons to hang out with, but my bet is that there is utility even if you choose to hang out with catholics, or baptists, or other christian sects. And if you're not attached strongly to any given sect, you can shop around and find a local church that has the right vibe for you.
@@JereKrischel We joined a bowling league near our home. It frankly surprised me the level of friendships developed with a lovely community atmosphere. We have several awesome new friends thanks to bowling. Don’t get me wrong we had awesome friends and acquaintances within my Catholic sphere while I was a member. We just purposefully found alternative means to meet great people. Hobbies provide an awesome conduit for that. Church, any church, just doesn’t provide that vibe anymore. It really does for so many so I absolutely am not criticizing it.
Hoping you will find your way back one day! There is always a way!
41:50 Like Marti, I remember also going through this phase. You don't want to lie or misrepresent the state of your troubled belief, but you also don't want to tip anyone off, so you end up speaking in a sort of "legalese". For example, instead of, "I believe Joseph Smith was a prophet", you say, "The Church teaches us that Joseph Smith was a prophet" thereby obscuring your own doubts through careful wording.
Thing is, once you've done this yourself, you can sometimes pick up on other people doing it too.
I guess I don’t understand why bother saying anything like it at all? Don’t say anything about Joseph smith or about prophets at all if there isn’t a testimony of it.
@@kristinrichmond8185 Because you may be around believers that talk about these things all the time and then they will suspect you of not being one of them if you are not careful.
@@jonny6man again, why does it matter if you are around people who believe differently than you. I’m around people who believe differently than me and it doesn’t bother me if they believe differently. I also think it doesn’t bother them that I don’t share their beliefs. I don’t get it.
@kristinrichmond8185 Oh, okay. Just as an example, the moment my in-laws realized I was no longer a believer, they thought I never believed in the first place or that I wanted to sin. Now they think I'm deceived by Satan and anything I say they treat as suspicious or that I have ulterior motives. In addition, the judgment is very noticeable and not pleasant.
@@jonny6man I’m so sorry that you’ve experienced that. They should strive to be as understanding of you as possible and strive to show love. I hope you can understand that we are all imperfect people trying to be better, even if it doesn’t look that way. Sometimes we just gotta meet people where they are at. I’m still a believer, but I never want anyone to feel like they have to pretend around me so they aren’t “found out”. And I try to treat all people with respect, even if we differ in beliefs.
I am so glad to hear an xmormon without an agenda. I love this Chanel because it is tolerant and open minded. I think we all need to be able to listen to others w8thout feeling defensive. The beauty comes from diversity.
My spidey tingling never went away, but i listened to the whole thing. Disturbing.
What was disturbing?
I see the church as a way to receive the ordinance and covenants with authority.
I resonate a lot with Marty and she has articulated things that I did have words for but instantly realized that I had the same thoughts. Probably more so than most ex Mormon content creators. I like to thing it may be because of having an engineering background. We get trained to think a certain way, for better or for worse.
Also this kind of crossover is much needed. Thanks to both of you.
1:33:21 That was exactly what I thought when I saw that the ex-Mormon community here in Utah is very into open marriages and poly-amory! haha
1:00:30ish Marti mentioned the GC talk prescribing a balance in one’s research during a faith crisis. Once again taking zero accountability and shaming and super gaslighty. I mean, as members, I’ll speak for myself, ALL of my life 44 years studying LDS everything, from the church provided sources. So in reality oa balance of information has never been their concern. I had 44 years worth of gospel study to balance out. That request is garbage!!!
Gave more than five minutes of attention to James Randi? Sam Harris? Penn and Teller? Welp, you are what you eat.
It's funny, I guess maybe I have some resentment against the secular mainstream culture that told me for so many years lies about the faithful - that they were backwards, bigoted, ignorant, stupid, or malicious. I feel like the lies told by the secular culture are of a different quality than "lies" told by faithful culture. I find that even though I don't believe any of Mormon doctrine literally, I still find value in the narratives they live by.
Although, I'm an old-school, pre-1900, still drinking coffee metaphorical mormon :)
The best thing you can do is to actually put faith in the Old and New Testament, especially Isaiah 43:10, “
“Ye are My witnesses,” saith the Lord, “and My servant whom I have chosen, that ye may know and believe Me, and understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after Me.” This is fundamental to the true “Christian Faith”. Also, feel the assurance of eternal life and never having to wonder if you’ve “done enough” through your works. Ephesians 2:8-9
“8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.”
God be with you🙏
hard to stay awake......