Howdy partners! This video was edited by Ben from Canada. Follow him here and get him to edit for you!! twitter.com/BenChinapen. Also, if you liked the video, maybe consider giving me a few bucks on Patreon to support more of my videos??? Idk seems like a cool and interesting idea www.patreon.com/bigjoel One other thing, if you get ads on this video, I'm sorry. I turned monetization off, but some company put a claim on it, so you might get their ads.
Hey I’m from Texas and I’m curious Big Joel; Is it popular in places where people can where sweaters more than two days out of the year like here in sun burn state, to say “Howdy” and the likes? I used to be embarrassed when a little bit of accent slips out or using southern colloquialisms. So I’m pleasantly surprised to see people in more temperate climates use it.
Another fascinating thing about Tatis video was her saying that James was trying to trick the waiter into being gay. Like James was some devious sorcerer with the power to woo heterosexual men.
I think Big Joel is charming because he always seems like he's on the verge of letting out a little chuckle, not a laugh, just a chuckle, and it's just so good
Unbeknownst to the audience, each and every one of Joel’s videos is followed by twenty minutes of straight up evil laughter that gets edited out before posting
The phrase, "This will follow them for the rest of their lives" is pretty suspicious too. That's a phrase you use for someone committing a terrible crime or doing some kind of shameful harm, not for having an experimental makeout session as a teenager.
Right?? The waiter responded to the flirting with wanting to spend more time with the flirty dude. His only complaint was "bad kisser". What's the problem? How will a few bad kisses follow anyone for the rest of their lives? I've had some bad kisses and there's no following around for the rest of my life... 🙄 She's such a bitch.
"If someone who is very masculine and been with women decides they're bisexual..." Yes Tati, because masculine=straight and sexuality is definitely something one gets to decide _good job not being homophobic_
@@maxieprimo2758 How much y'all want to bet this Maxie dumbass thinks that you aren't homophobic unless your literally afraid of gay people (afraid as defined by the homophobes themselves, of course).
If you wouldn't call it homophobic (which btw I still would) it at least demonstrates a harmful misunderstanding of sexuality and a perpetuation of hurtful stereotypes
@@peterprime2140 No? Calm down, dude. Words have meanings. Irrational aversion is very strongly different from flagrant misunderstanding and shit mindset. Before you go trotting around on your high horse, at least try figuring out what the other person thinks, ya nob.
J Z yeah she’s quite the mentor when she’s actively keeping homophobic thinking whenever she’s with him, and she still attacked him because of vitamins
the fact that almost no one participating in this discourse besides Joel has called out Tati's blatant homophobia in the Bye Sister video is really concerning.
To be honest, I remember when I first watched Bye Sister I thought "I mean, you can't really trick someone into being gay but okayyyy..." but I didn't recognize the underlying homophobia of what she was saying. It seems so obvious now. Wish I didn't have to have someone point it out to me before I realized it. I'm glad Joel made this video.
I dislike James Charles because he seems annoying but it was definitely eye opening to see all the comments on him being str8 boys getting on the "I'm not homophobic as long as they stay away from me." No way that Tati couldn't have seen that coming, just blatantly playing off of the hysterical sexual insecurities of straight dudes.
And biphobia too- the whole “if a man is masculine and DECIDES to be bisexual then So Be It” is repulsive. even if that’s not what she MEANT it’s still what she communicated and shows how utterly UNQUALIFIED she is to speak on LGBT+ issues.
I don’t think many ppl realize the effect Tatis video had outside RUclips. My parents - who literally don’t even know who any of these ppl are - saw this drama circulating on Facebook and used it to further justify their homophobic beliefs. And I’m sure they weren’t the only ones. You can’t just attack someone for their sexuality like that and expect zero real world repercussions for other gay people
same like I can still remember what my mom said about gay people, I literally cried in my room for 2 hours straight because I am still in the closet and my mom is extremely prejudiced and used all these stuff to justify her ignorance and she had also recently watched the Michael Jackson wonderland documentary so she was full-on saying stuff about the gays being disgusting and predatory
@@nationssunshinefelix4482 Tell your mom to stop being so ignorant because clearly she doesn't know anything about gay people. And she seriously needs to stop _generalizing_ the entire gay community.
when this first came out and everyone was Villainizing James for “going after” a “straight man” it felt super uncomfortable and i couldn’t quite figure out why. now i know, it’s the homophobia.
Thousands of of kids were commenting about him being a bad kisser like they really wanted some famous young guy to feel ashamed for trying to find a partner
Notice how taddi says “decides they are bisexual” implying that it’s a choice. Realizing who you are is like looking at the sky and seeing that it’s blue, you didn’t decide it was blue, it was always blue, always has been.
@@bluemarb1e787 I don't what's better you're comment or the fact your user name uses the name blue meanwhile the OP used the color blue as an allegory(?)
Right. I know a guy, surprise surprise he's a conservative christian with terrible views on homosexuality, that claims he had a gay friend who after having sex with a woman was straight all of a sudden. All I could think was "the guy's probably bi".
I witnessed James Charles' rise in popularity in middle/high school, and the type of fans he had in my year were conservative Christian straight girls. They called him "the gay guy on RUclips", and lamented about wanting a "gay best friend like him". They thought guys doing makeup was weird, but it was okay because "he's basically a girl". To them, his sexuality defined all aspects of him. They believed liking him made them exempt from homophobia. What Tati and others fail to realize is that she perpetuated the myth that all gay men are predators or deviants because of their sexuality. James' crime was being a gay teen, and it was framed as criminal behavior in Tati's video. At high school for the next few weeks, there were a bunch of homophobic jokes and disgusted comments about gay men (from the aforementioned fans) and a lot more people equating James with Pro Jared. The damage Tati did to not only James, but the LGBTQ+ community as a whole, is extreme. Edit: I live in a moderately conservative area (at a school with like four openly gay kids), and most teens around me knew of James as "the gay makeup youtuber". By insinuating James' sexuality was predatory, Tati managed to make several hundred children more blatantly hostile to LGBTQ+ people as a whole.
@@NONPOINT420 right. But adults can still be manipulated. This is not to say that Tati is not to blame, but she could have been convinced that James was a bad person. However of course, it was completely her decision to make that video. Jeffree, Shane, and Tati are all to blame in this situation.
The only thing i agree with her about when it comes to him being "too gay" is when she complained that he talked about what he'd sexually do to other dudes (and, as she said, he talked about it explicitly lol) at a dinner with a bunch of peeps were who weren't his besties. That shit is kinda weird and makes shit hella awkward. Not to mention it's infront of her family, like wtf?! And I'd say the same thing if somone straight did that at a dinner I was at. I'd feel embarrassed as hell if a friend I invited to dinner with my family (again, wtf) and best friends would do shit like and I'd call them out for it privately (not thru a yt video and to millions of people obv, that's just scummy). Just generally, you don't do shit like that at dinners unless you're with people you're reaaaally close with and it's ok to talk about shit like that cause it's been done before. But then again, that's not being too gay, but too open about sexual shit...
@@damjanp7920 Well I guess a grown up such as Tati could have interrupted and said "honey, this is not the time". It sounds like instead everyone acted like a bunch of children and were too embarrassed to say anything.
wouldn't it be more in line with the video if you locked us in a room and we had to seduce you into a sexuality other than your own to get out? initially from a hiring perspective i thought asexual staff would cover the most client bases, but you'd still have to keep hiring new asexuals, so it's probably better to have the same employees constantly switched back and forth, screening out the pansexuals obviously. they can wear different colored shirts to remember which sexuality they are that day
It wasn't even a hair vitamin. I think that's the funniest part. Yes, Sugar Bear Hair is the name of the brand, but James was promoting their sleep aid. Halo Beauty doesn't offer a sleep aid. (Or at least they didn't at the time, I'm not sure if they have one now.) So there was no competition.
man, hearing the biggest Joel make fun of Tati was weirdly healing after like... a year of not being able to brush off how eager everyone was to prove that homophobia is, indeed, alive and well
yes!! exactly. you put it into words, thank you :,-) when the video came out and everybody was so quick to believe everything she said it was so frustrating
I find it kind of funny that she thinks a guy going on a date with another guy and deciding he’s not gay or bi will affect him for the rest of his life. Um, Tati trying to figure out who your into is THE ENTIRE POINT OF DATING.
I think if the call-out had been for anyone else, there may have been more skepticism. Unfortunately for James, many people already thought he was vapid and annoying and were primed to believe any bad thing about him so long as they had an excuse.
Right?? "cracking somebody's sexuality follows them for the rest of their life"... Uhm? He flirted with the waiter, the waiter reached out to him, went to his hotel room and the only actual complaint was "bad kisser". How will that follow him for the rest of his life? I've had some bad kisses and I'm fine. 🤣
exactly. they only wanna be friends with them because of the specific picture of a gay person they have in their mind and then think they are automatically absolved of homophobia. this also makes sense for why she just assumed the waiter to be straight. she knows what a gay man looks like! there's one sitting right in front of her! that's what all gay people are like! no complex personalities or ways of expression that differ from person to person! pffft gay people don't act like us normal folk!
@@addison8212 that's so fucking insidious... like, being more empathetic and understanding of gay culture is too hard? So instead fabricate lies and instigate drama? Shouldn't she be worried about how that kind of thing would "stick with you for the rest of your life"?
She clearly believes a lot of stereotypes and is very ignorant... "Deciding" to be bisexual... Really lady? And she just had to throw "masculine" in there as if there aren't masculine gay men. She assumed the waiters sexuality and all she had to go on was... He's not feminine. 🤦🏻
As a gay guy, watching Tati's video made me feel really uncomfortable, because she's careless and conflates having crushes on straight guys with being a predator. When Big Joel calls her video homophobic, I felt some dread that that's actually what I experienced, but I also felt recognized.
honestly, I don’t understand how everyone else didn’t see this at the time... I’m bissexual and have to listen to my female cousins complain when a lesbian will simply LOOK at them at parties, so I kinda got the same vibe from that video. It’s just so obviously homophobic.
I'm straight male. I've had trans women and gay men hit on me. It's awkward turning down someone but no sweat as long as they don't persist, aren't NSFW and its appropriate venue. I'm not offended if someone makes a pass at me (whether women or man). It's a compliment. Anyone that's "offended" by a gay person making a pass at them is immature or a homophobe.
She's from a generation where accusations of nefarious homosexual activity was an effective way to hurt someone's reputation. The two Gen Z teens are not.
You know, her video made no sense to me until I read your comment. She's old enough to be from a time where "tricking" people into being gay was a real thing people believed in.
yet those gen z's you talk about jumped on the bandwagon as fast as they could and decided to cancell jc as they do with almost everyone on twitter for no reason
"you tried to make a straight man think he's gay" is the biggest homophobic stereotype i can think of and the fact that the general narrative on twitter didn't IMMEDIATELY call that out speaks volumes about how qualified most of this crowd actually is to make and judge callouts
This. Every time I'm reminded of this drama, I think not about why Tati did it, that's quite obvious. I think about more than a million people supposedly open-minded enough to watch a make-up channel by a gay guy SOMEHOW swallowing the oldest and the vilest homophobic lie there is. Hook. Line. And sinker. Without asking for any evidence. We didn't "solve" homophobia, not even close. (And no, later events don't change the fact there was zero evvidence of any non-consent in this particular case.)
okay, but the thing that bugs me the most when talking about all this drama and tati herself is how people omit/don't realise that tati is basicaly an 'essencial oils mum' kind of person. like, i used to watch her before the bye sister video and even before her vitamins launch, and it peeked throught even then - how she hypes up everything 'natural' (nothing abou cruelty-free or vegan products, just 'natural'), how she genuinely seems to belive that vitamins/herbs/some other natural stuff do magic for your health... i just think, it's important part od tati's internet persona and by forgeting about it, we erase how basicly 'on brand' her freak out about the vitamins was - bcs by her 'everything should be natural and good for your health' attitude, promoting something that's 'not healthy' or 'just sugar' is a cardinal sin.
I totally agree with your comment. I was a Tati fan for a while as well, and I misinterpreted her all-natural stance for ethical consumerism. A lot of vegan makeup products tend to be cruelty free, but a huge ingredient beauty gurus never acknowledge is palm oil, whose production is destroying Indonesia. It's a testament to the mindset of close-minded vegans.
Well, that makes the homophobia even more disturbing given how one of the most common homophobic arguments is that anything that isn't heterosexual is "unnatural".
I feel like attractive women trick me into being attracted to them all the time. How dare they inconvenience me like that! I never consented to being attracted to them.
I am so here for this analysis. These poor teenagers having their sexual experimentation put on blast, especially Sam, Tati did him WAY more dirty than James ever did, what if Sam had been in the closet living with his homophobic parents or something? Tati’s timing on this has been gross from the beginning, you don’t accuse someone of sexual assault because they didn’t promote your brand, if she’d known that all along then the vitamins shouldn’t have been the tipping point.
Its not like tati mentioned Sam's name or anything. sam came with his own video chasing for clout so I highly doubt he was a closeted person living with his homophobic parents
As a gay person, I’ve been seeing gay people say how they “like straight people” for years and years. And it’s not a sentiment to express them wanting to fucking prey on them, it’s one to express how often they accidentally have unrequited crushes on them. When people saw it another way, I thought I was in the twilight zone.
Yeah far as im aware its just 'the majority of people are straight but not me so its always a gamble whether or not a person is able to be attracted with me' wrapped up in a nice little phrase LOL
As a teenage girl I had at least one instance of falling in love with a gay guy and trying to convince him to "just try for me". I was such an asshole. It goes both ways. I wasn't predatory, I was just too selfish and ignorant to understand why what I was doing was no different than a guy trying to get with me when I wasn't interested. EDIT: This was when Ricky Martin was still in the closet.. guess who the friend I targeted reminded me of. It would have been a sign... had we been open enough about that stuff at the time. Maybe if I'd pointed out this was in the 90s, I would have gotten a lot less shit for this comment. OP judges me on a 2020 metric when we're talking about a summer online in 1996. When you're 16, living in the Bible belt, and still presumably straight (bi, hi) there's a lot of stuff you still don't understand. James may have dealt with a similar bubble just from being successful at such an early age. I mean Tati herself wouldn't shut up about how he was insulated from criticism. None of that makes him a predator, not even remotely. Ignorant and inexperienced? Well, duh. He was 19 and totally inexperienced with dating. It'd be nice if all the people who made up fake screenshots claiming James m*lested their friend in a bathroom actually had to pay for making stuff up, but... we all know these things move too quickly to do anything but let the person take the damage and hope nobody remembers it as "one of the things that was actually true".
Wouldn't it be natural that gay men would have crushes on straight guys? There are WAY more straight guys than gay guys, thus a hell of a lot more options to look at/lust over. Straight men pine over "unattainable" women all the time (like my chances of being with Jennifer Lawrence are just as unlikely, if not more so, then a gay guy's chances with a straight man). The idea that gay men can Jedi mind trick a "100% straight" guy (no bi curiosity) into sex is also ridiculous.
I've been a lil confused about my sexuality recently so I think I need to go see Tati so she can assign me a sexual identity that I'm not permitted to stray from
tati weaponized homophobia to take out a business rival and i really feel sorry for james, i hope that he holds his friends to a better standard than that now
in hindsight, Bye Sister did the exact opposite of cancelling James Charles. instead it let him keep his career and platform despite the 15+ credible allegations of sex crimes with minors that have come out since Tati’s video. she wrote him a blank check to dismiss real crimes as more homophobia and youtuber drama
@@gnocchidokey since he made the news in 2021 for sending nudes to a bunch of teen boys, every couple of months a new 15-18 year old boy has come forward with new nasty sexual DMs from James Charles-he likes them young and refuses to stop prowling for sex on social media. He’s been able to throw a lot of money at hack influences to gas up his reputation (Brent Rivera house tour comes to mind) and at media outlets to soften/bury headlines. H3 has done a good job covering it whenever there are new allegations and treating it like the crime it is.
This is one of the few reasons I think cancel culture actually is bad. Literally they just said, 'yeah he's a predator' and he came out, refuted the maybe one piece of evidence they had and then... nothing. But there are still BOATLOADS of people (even people I'm friends with personally) who still regurgitate that he's a predator... cause... reasons.
The insane thing is they are both friends again!!!!!!!! James is crazy for being friends with her again. He doesnt have to take sides between Jeffree Shane and Tati, he should leave all of them.
I don't think he is crazy. This was a really big transgression and I agree with everything Joel says, definitely much bigger than any minor things James did wrong. Also, the age difference does matter, she is old enough to know better. But that said, they apparently had a really genuine friendship before all this and she helped his career. If he wishes to choose to forgive then it is a virtue of his, as long as he does not forget and gives her less leeway if she does something else bad. I feel like we are too eager to drop and sever close connections in these times.
While we can hold James accountable for targeting underaged fans, this video’s main points of subconscious/“justified” homophobia (no thanks to Tati’s video and framing) still stand. I see people saying Tati, Jeffree, Shane, etc. were right all along but it concerns me that many still don’t seem to get how damaging the “predatory gay” concept is and how so many immediately bought into it and still make jokes under those harmful beliefs. Like with James’ case, predatory behavior sources back to power, it ain’t about turning straight kids gay or some bullshit like that.
@I love Nicki Minaj What fucking position do you think I’m arguing from? You just might not be among the people I’m talking about because some *were* saying that (not like they were perfectly justified but that they were right all along about their accusations of James) My concern is that if people keep switching back on simply who’s right, they forget the important details of what to denounce and what doesn’t deserve shit, like calling out predatory behavior doesn’t justify the jokes about “targeting straight guys” and “turning them gay”
@@ilovescaramouche4734 Yes they were. I've seen people say it. Lots of people were after the cancelling 2.0. You not thinking/saying something isn't the same as everybody not thinking/saying something #TheMoreYouKnow
Dont listen to this man, he claims to be Big Joel, but is actuality Small HEnry. He admitted it live on stream and I, for one, am shocked by this clear devious spread of maltruths from his mouth hole.
While I Know In My Heart ANd In My Brain that the Henry part is true, actually when he possibly admitted to being small he lied. Just fucking look at him, he's clearly of considerable volume.
Yeah I've been treated in ways that make me uncomfortable by gay guys, and I'm straight, but they couldn't have tricked me into thinking I was gay. I would say that they seem predatory and creepy, but were they trying to "trick" me? Well, I think one of them was trying, but he couldn't magically make me like men.
has she ever met a young gay man, either? "Ewww, you made sexual innuendo and inappropriate jokes!" Most young men, including young gay men, make off-colour jokes around *their friends.* Well, maybe all of the other gay guys Tati knows hold their tongues because they know what a prude she is.
@@LiberalSquared yeah sure, gay guys can be predatory or creepy in the same ways straight men can (and women, and nb people) but "tricking" anyone into thinking they're a different sexuality is just a bullshit accusation
With these new accusations, Tati either knew and didn't care until James started promoting different vitamins, or did not know and therefor lied, because he promoted other vitamins. The new accusations do not "vindicate" her claims.
I'm more on the "Didn't know" camp. If Jefree, Shane or Tati had known about, they would've blasted it everywhere. Why bother to make up shit if truth is right there?
That’s what’s always bothered me about Tati. Whether her claims were justified or true, she chose to stay silent on the matter until she wanted to get revenge on James. That says everything about her.
This is something I'm p sure Jeffree tried to do too? And it bothers me how many people jumped on it. Just, taking people's word that a young effeminate gay man was a sexual predator and jumping on that idea with no proof and continuing to believe it and other shitty accusations even when James was like "babe I have reciepts to prove ALL this shit wrong" and laid it out, like. Say what you want about James but im very sure 99% of people hating on him is just fulfilling a desire to shit on a popular guy who happens to be gay, without being able to just say homophobic shit outwardly
talking super sexual about someone you want to bang at a table isn't cool. At all. It is gross coming from anyone. Gay people can be victims too. Bi people can be victims too. It's straight up harassment to talk sexually about someone you're not that way with.
It's ridiculous that people are staning Tati again. She didn't know about the the situation involving the minors, she was just being a homophobe. James isn't a good person and neither is Tati.
You said it perfectly. Regardless of what James actually is and does, Tati only spoke out to hurt him after he advertised a rival brand. It was about the vitamins.
This. One does not absolve the other. What she said is gross and harmful. It doesn't exist in a vacuum, only affecting James. Like you said, both are not great people.
Hmm... Being masculine and being with women means you have to "decide you're bisexual" I'm really tired of the way non mspec people talk about our sexualities
@@peterprime2140 multi-sexual spectrum. So bisexual, pansexual, polysexual, omnisexual, people who don't like labels but know they're attracted to more than 1 gender, lots of folks
Twisty Sunshine Considering that the most commonly accepted (in queer spaces) definition of bi has changed and doesn’t reinforce gender binary anymore, why can’t we just say bi or bispec? I love that there are so many labels, because it helps us understand ourselves, and the identities I have are “microlabels” (genderfluid pansexual greyromantic), but sometimes I feel like we’re just causing division by not agreeing on definitions and forgetting about umbrella terms that already exist, and endlessly tacking on new letters to our acronym.
@@ostsarahb7466 I don't think respecting peoples identity as pan or omnisexual or whatever they want is "divisive". Mspec has been a word since at least 2014 (that's 6 years now) even if everyone doesn't know it. I don't see what I gain as a bi person by forcing a pan person to identify as "bispec" and inherently saying my label is the best label. That seems way more divisive than saying "mspec" a word that literally already includes everyone affected without forcing them to sorta/kinda identify as bi
Twisty Sunshine Fair enough, but it’d be nice if there were more official definitions of all of these terms. Also, if a person says they don’t like a specific label, I won’t use it for them personally, but sometimes when you want to mention a group as whole it can be a pain in the ass to take everyone into account. Like the word “queer” for example. I know of some people who aren’t cishet allo sexual alloromantic and don’t want this label used for them and I don’t refer to them specifically as queer. But when the most accepted definition for queer is someone who isn’t cishet sexual alloromantic, are we seriously gonna have to say that or LGBTQIA+ every time we want to refer to our community? I guess mspec is short enough at least. Idk... but thanks for taking the time to have this conversation with me. I might actually change my mind eventually. Because, you know, I really want to agree with you. Hanging on to old words not everyone likes makes me feel like a reactionary. But the part of me just thinks “bi = both same and different genders/two or more genders, pan = regardless of gender, therefore pan attracted to all genders therefore pan is included in bi” 😅
Look Joel, I love you, I respect you, I love every one of your videos. But this has been bothering me forever. Why do you have 2 of the exact same pictures behind you. Why. Its been torturing me forever why must you need to have 2 pictures of that little girl in the dress holding a cat. Why.
I just rewatched this video and realised I misheard Joel. I thought he said Tati experienced “VITAMIN TRAUMA”. When he actually said “vitamin drama”. I mean that’s still funny but for 3 years now I’ve incorporated the phrase vitamin trauma into my vocabulary. I actually have never had a chance to use it but I use the term in imaginary situations to myself all the time.
Tati got away with it because she's got this image she's cultivated of being classy, intelligent, older and wiser. And yes I still stand by the fact they this was all over vitamins. It wasn't about his behaviour toward straight men oe she wouldn't have waited for him to slight her for her to come out with it. If she genuinely thought James was dangerous she was obligated to tell people. So she either believed he was a predator and sat on that information for months or she lied because she was upset about vitamin sales. Then there's the Jeffree and Shane influence. Yikes.
I never figured out how she managed to maintain this image. When the drama first started, people kept bringing up that she “never gets into drama” so it must be true BUT SHE HAD BEEN IN DRAMA BEFORE. Literally the only real explanation I’ve seen was that she’s an older women on the beauty side of youtube so everyone wanted to treat her like an oppressed minority.
@@merrybright5732 people forget the older drama because in comparison to the bigger drama like dramageddon for example, she's remained drama free. She's gotten into tit for tat drama with a couple of smaller youtubers but never anything major like racism, homophobia (until bye sister) etc so its been seen as comparatively small and not note worthy. She's remained fairly unproblematic in comparison to people like Laura Lee, manny MUA, Jefferson starship et al.
UltraViolence that’s fine for trying to say that she’s not problematic to a “cancellable” degree, but people use the idea that Tati “doesn’t get into drama” to call her mature and usually phrase it as though she has never done anything as petty as have a squabble on twitter. At least that’s the narrative I usually see. And even though she hadn’t demonstrated issues such as racism, she had already befriended Jeffree and others who were known to be problematic. This at the very least demonstrated that she wasn’t above the majority of the beauty side of youtube as people were claiming
It’s a stupid fear tactic used by heteronormative media where men especially are afraid they might want a little D so they blame the gay guys for tricking them into it. Anyone can be tricked into sex, but I personally don’t get how they think a gay guy can go into their head and trick them into being gay
its a dumb concept that perpetrates the negative stereotype that all homosexual men are sexual deviants and predators that prey on straight people for reasons. also what Vered Pinhas said, alot of dudes are afraid to come out.
I guess you could make an argument if a guy is with a pre-op minimal hormonal treatment ftm... as in, essentially f as far as someone else's sexuality would be concerned.
Right, a lot of straight/cis people just seem to have no understanding of repression. They think it's a process of moving from Point A to Point B, when in reality there never really was an A to begin with.
How do you trick someone who's straight into thinking they are gay? Is it some sort of jedi mind power? "Those are not the boobs you were looking for."
This is how this drama goes down between people that are true friends: 1: Sorry, I had to do this, I needed security at the moment, I was feeling scared. 2: Oh, my God. Did something happen to you? 1: Thankfully, no. But I'm calling you to let you know, because, I don't want you to think that I'm betraying you. 2: It sucks that you felt scared. You needed the help, I understand. 1: Yes, and it is a one-time thing. 2: It's ok, the important thing is that you are fine. 1: Thank you so much for understanding. 2: It's fine. Anyway we have a thing on Sunday, are you coming? 1: Sure, see you then.
I mean it’s accurate, but have you ever had a friend sell fake vitamins that are the competitor of your fake vitamins for the whole world to see. That’s an open wound that could never heal, let’s be sympathetic to the absolute horror tati went through and still goes through every waking moment
@@misspeaches1144 not to mention, would she feel better if james got injured from being mobbed at Coachella (staying or trying to leave) just to protect her feelings as a teenager.
Everyone saying this didn’t age well is dumb LMAO it doesn’t change the fact that Tati did her part in perpetuating weird outdated gay stereotypes and a bunch of real shady shit
@@ilovescaramouche4734 defamation is a _false_ statement that does harm to someone’s reputation & James being a bad person doesn’t make Tati a good one or her original video any less of a baldly corporate ploy
@@syrme2486 ok but accusers of famous predators constantly get sued for defamation there were multiple defamation cases made against acusers of Harvey Weinstein before things came out
This is one of the main issues I have with cancel culture. Everyone is so quick to jump to these conclusions when we truly have no idea. I mean, god, I hate Onision but people ignored what he's been saying about Shane for YEARS!
@SleeperInTravel but with these new accusations, that means that Tati either knew and didn't care until James started promoting different vitamins, or did not know and lied, because he promoted other vitamins. This does not "vindicate" her claims.
The most frustrating thing about this video was the aftermath. People took the claim that James was a preadator and used it to push the stereotype that gay men are a threat to straight mens sexuality
Yup. She essentially gave a free pass for any homophobe online that already hated JC for being a feminine gay man to bully him and tell about their horrible experiences where they once went into a gay bar and some gay men looked in their direction and how it traumatized them for life.
@@aby110 And now that James Charles winded up sexting with minors, some are trying to give Tati a redemption arc because she was "right all along". Uh...no. She allied with Shane Dawson and Jefree Star to push some made up shit to settle a grudge over a vitamin deal. Just because Jimbo ended up fucking it up AFTER her BS accusation on separate thing entirely, doesn't mean she was "right all along."
This breakdown of Tati's video is still so relevant even with the recent, significantly more substantive accusations against James. It's been so frustrating seeing people go "Tati was right" when in reality she was at best a petty business rival who MIGHT have picked up on some vibes or had access to some form of accusation (that we've never seen) but could only process them through the lens of homophobia. Which is not "right" at all, she doesn't even get the way James' predatory behaviour manifests right.
So true. She wasn’t right in her video and everything Joel says is true about her clear homophobia. She didn’t mention anything about James going for minors
Yes thank you! I would not characterize her as correct at all. The accusations she made were rooted in homophobia and personal disputes. Just because he happened to do something slightly near what she was accusing him of does not make what she did at the time right. If anything it makes it worse because it took so much longer for the real accusations to come out because of her false ones.
I always disliked the entire basis behind the complaints against Mr. Charles. Like, you can't "crack" peoples sexualities. You can't trick someone who doesn't want you into being with you (generally).
yeah, and also sexuality is not relevant in cases of abuse, it was so weird to see that being mentioned like 20 times in Tati's video. Straight or gay, manipulating a person into having sex or doing sexual acts with you is wrong, THAT SHOULD BE THE MAIN THESIS, CONSENT. But "tricking them into thinking they're gay"? Incoherent as fuck. Rape isn't somehow worse because the victim wasn't attracted to their offender's gender, it's just BAD in every circumstance.
I truly didn’t reflect enough at the time how much the whole original ‘cancelling’ was all about leaning into the gay man = predatory, esp given by someone like TATI. I definitely forgot just how young James was at the time versus all of the literal adults coming for him. I’m not a fan of James Charles and never have been but he didn’t deserve all of this, especially since there were so many sinister motives from the adults.
This was all a bit odd for me. I'm 39. I don't have teenage friends. It's just not a circle I run in. I don't think it's evil per say, I just find it odd. At my age, you are more a mentor than a friend when someone is that young. I get the homophobic element, but Tati seems very immature for someone in her late 30s.
In Tatis second video she talked about her lawyers telling her what she could talk about. So she might be looking into legal action against Shane Dawson and Jeffree Star in this whole situation.
she said she was shown a clip of the elusive voicemail jeffree keeps parading around and he constantly kept bad mouthing james to her when her opinion of him was already sinking, and allegedly that influenced her. jeffree absolutely could have done that, he seems like he has it in for james and he openly fanned the flames even more on the bye sister video by immediately jumping on it and saying he had actual proof of him being a predator.
And after all of this, Tati and Jefree Starr got away with this scheme almost scot-free, Partly due to James being very apologetic about the whole situation. Probably because it was good for business, I can't blame him for that but it might also have been because of some sort of inexplicable guilt which had been gaslighted onto him. HE HAD EVERY RIGHT TO BE MAD, his so called 'friends' backstabbed him and almost ended his career plus destroyed his life. 'Whatever the reasons were for his apologetic attitude, after this drama had backfired right into Tati and Jefree's faces James Charles didn't regain all of his subscribers and Tati and Jefree never lost any subscribers either. In fact; they gained subs! On top of this, James, despite being vindicated still has this subconscious association of being a predator among a lot of people in this community who never bothered to hear his side or did, but still associates him with the first thing they heard which was Tati's side. This association also reinforces the old homophobic myth that gays are out to force straight people to have sex with them, which is ridiculous and damaging to the gay community. It really feels like Injustice was dealt here and the moral of this story really feels like 'the bad guys' got away with this. smh, just my two cents. (also credit to my man TRO for some of my points)
@@familyguy160 I mean, I get that, that's where my point of him being gaslighted comes from. I didn't word it clearly enough but that was kind of what I was getting at. he still felt like him and Tati were friends and so he took on some guilt for himself when it wasn't his fault, telling himself and lying to himself that Tati is still his friend. Tati probably spun her own story to James so he could forgive her. Really shitty what she and Jefree did, though.
yeah he did, but i think this video still stands. the narrative was "he's threatening straight boys with gayness" but actually he was threatening MINORS which is the actual bad. homophobia blinded the people calling him out and it allowed him to defend himself
@@MadderCommotion It also still stands because Tati was making these accusations of James when he was himself still 16-19. When she made that video James was 19 and she was talking about situations that had happened in previous years.
There's definitely something to be said here about how easy it is to weaponize homosexuality. And how easy it is to play into straight men's anxieties and fears about being flirted with by gay men. There's a reason why it's called "homophobia." Fear of gay people.
Interesting how men’s anxieties are labeled as some form of phobia, hence disclaiming it. Women and gay’s anxieties are legit. Forever the fucking victims, especially when you are being serve the same medicine that you so eager to dole out to others.
@@PungiFungi No. A straight man's fear of a gay man is usually based off homophobia. These are the type of guys who are scared to be perceived as gay for liking something effeminate. They also tend to bully gay men as well. Their fear IS illegitimate because it is just an excuse to be hateful.
Exactly! Especially because many straight people have always feared gay people "turning them" and I remember even before the whole drama there were a ton of jokes like "Like this comment or James Charles will kiss you"
I kind of agree, but there are true stories about young straight or bi-curious people who were in a relationship with an uneven power dynamic and may have been pressured to do what they didn’t really want to do. For example - both husbands of Joe Exotic
I think what sucks the most about this (and says a LOT) is that Tati’s homophobic rhetoric and _obviously_ self-serving motives distracted from what the real problem actually was. A lot of people were hesitant to call him out on his ACTUALLY predatory behavior because they were so ashamed for the community’s behavior regarding the homophobia from a year prior. Tati, Shane, and Jeffree were too big-headed, self-serving, and greedy to approach any of this from a standpoint of actually wanting to fix a problem. Jeffree and Shane apparently knew about his actually predatory behavior and have voice memos to prove it, but once it looked like the tide was turning in James’ favor when everyone suddenly realized how blatantly homophobic the initial claims were, they decided to not release them because they had something to gain from just dropping it. It’s a horrible situation and I wish it could have been handled by rational adults that weren’t in it to boost themselves financially. The blatant homophobia from Tati and her garbage whiny motives, and Jeffree and Shane’s makeup promotion and manipulation rooted in greed is what let James get away with it for another year. Terrible all around.
Late to the partyyy!! But this idea that there is “ACTUAL predator behavior”, happening that is only backed up by two actual predators (Shane & Star) kind of seems like a repeat of Tati’s shit. but if it’s true: let me knoww!
I respect the hustle Joel, but for those actually thinking about getting the Raycon's, don't lol. They are very bad. And even if they weren't, they are just rebranded buds by companies like Blitzwolf who sell the same thing for
I really like skullcandy. I have a pair of over the ears headphones and they last 20+ hours and they cost like 25 dollars. Best earbud purchase. Oh and they sometimes sell them at Ross for like 10 bucks.
i love how tati’s accusation is exactly the same flavor as outraged parents of a gay son accusing their son’s partner that he’s who turned their son gay in like, the 1940s
Tati shouldn’t have been forgiven so quickly for her role in all of this. She literally did this for gummy vitamins. She’s a horrible person and friend. I wouldn’t have forgiven her if I were James.
I thought her "tricking straight guys" narrative was weird but I found it so difficult to put my finger on it because I'm bisexual. I don't comprehend being "tricked into an orientation" because I'm literally _all_ of the orientations... so I figured me not getting what Tati was saying was just my limited world view. There's being predatory and manipulative, yes, I get that, I get grooming and bribery and abuse of power but she kept going on about "tricking straight men" and I was kinda like... but how. How... I don't get it. How do you... how do you trick someone into being attracted to you when they're not? What is this witchcraft? And she said he would 'threaten to ruin them'... like where? HOW? GAYNESS? "If you don't gay I'll tell people you're gay and you'll never work another day in your life"? I don't... I still don't get what she was implying.
Man. This is so wierd. Had no idea who James Charles was before contrapoints and then I didn't really realize the scale. Thank you for properly explaining internet wierdness
@@SubmitToTheBiomass kind of agree, kind of find it reductive. But it’s fascinating in a fucked up way when someone can be correct but also wrong in their approach
i think Tati is still wrong. she didn't know shit, she just kinda made a problem where there wasn't. like you can't just make shit up about people and then get vindicated when they do something wrong later.
Maybe it's just me having been raised by a conservative Catholic mother but from the start it hit me that Tati's biggest accusation was honestly that James embarrassed her in front of other people. It never seemed to be about sexual misconduct to me, because the way I was raised, embarrassing another person, especially a parent (figure), is the worst crime there is.
0:03 Introduction 0:29 Part One - RECAAAAAP 4:46 Part Two - VITAMIIIIINNNNS 7:55 Part Three - NO MORE LIES 12:52 Part Four - SATAN 18:36 Sponsor / Raycon 19:38 Patreons / Patreon Question of the Video / Outtro
It’s interesting to go back to this video after everything that’s happened now with James, Shane, etc. It still doesn’t negate the points you made against Tati, though. I was getting some serious pearl clutching vibes from her comments. She pretends to be ok with gay people but at the same time thinks that being sexually curious and sleeping with someone of the same sex could ruin your life if you turned out to not be gay or bi, almost as if she thinks that kissing or flirting is a scary and dangerous thing for gays to do. Like… I’m gay and I’ve kissed girls before. That doesn’t bother me at all. Why should it? It was a consensual act between me and my previous partners. By her logic, I should be recoiling in fear, sick to my stomach, the ghosts of the girls I crushed on haunting my gay little ass. She really didn’t think that out because it genuinely just comes off as incredibly homophobic. She’s the kind of person to say “I don’t care about the gays, just don’t shove that shit in my face” as if the LGBT community exists only to make straight white men and women uncomfortable. Do I like James? No, especially not after the recent events have unfolded. Do I like Tati? No, I feel like she’d faint if she so much as saw one (1) leather daddy at pride. Tbh nobody in their little friend group is worth any time (except for Garret, he’s great) and the drama surrounding their toxic little community just reminds me of petty high-school drama that has absolutely no reason to exist other than to alienate others and punch down to raise themselves up. Even though Tati claims that Shane and J. Star manipulated her into creating the video, I think it’s unfair to totally devoid her of any consequences. At the end of the day she’s a fully grown woman with a lot of money and she’s proven to be intelligent and business savvy. She’s not the little innocent easily manipulated baby that she’s trying to portray herself to be. This whole drama is so insane whilst still being so incredibly dull. I don’t even watch makeup channels anymore (other than “Murder mystery and makeup Monday’s” and “Bad movies and a beat” but that’s mostly because the people putting the makeup on are so interesting to listen to lmao)
I did not expect to be defending James Charles's makeout skills today, but sure, I guess this is my life now. As a lesbian who made out with a few guys before figuring out my sexuality...Kissing someone you're not sexually attracted to is weird af. Just super unpleasant. The waiter seems to identify as straight now, so it's possible that he thought James was an awful kisser mainly because he wasn't attracted to him and wasn't getting any feel-good chemicals.
Came here from dangelowallace’s video, definitely subscribing. You’re very put together and your points make sense. She just doesn’t care unless it costs her money.
Howdy partners! This video was edited by Ben from Canada. Follow him here and get him to edit for you!! twitter.com/BenChinapen.
Also, if you liked the video, maybe consider giving me a few bucks on Patreon to support more of my videos??? Idk seems like a cool and interesting idea www.patreon.com/bigjoel
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Ooh what prog rock are you listening to these days Big Joel?
Simplynailogicals Ben?
Hey I’m from Texas and I’m curious Big Joel; Is it popular in places where people can where sweaters more than two days out of the year like here in sun burn state, to say “Howdy” and the likes? I used to be embarrassed when a little bit of accent slips out or using southern colloquialisms. So I’m pleasantly surprised to see people in more temperate climates use it.
Oh man I’ve been waiting for this
Ben of Mr. Sunday movies fame?
Another fascinating thing about Tatis video was her saying that James was trying to trick the waiter into being gay. Like James was some devious sorcerer with the power to woo heterosexual men.
I'm just thinking of James pulling out a wand at a random person and chanting "OGGA BOOGA BOO, YOU ARE NOW A GAY!"
goalz
He passed the persuasion check but not the performing check
The powers of Slaanesh are far reaching indeed!
Yeah, how the heck do you "trick a straight man into thinking he's gay" - how does that even work
I think Big Joel is charming because he always seems like he's on the verge of letting out a little chuckle, not a laugh, just a chuckle, and it's just so good
Joel's chuckles give me life
Unbeknownst to the audience, each and every one of Joel’s videos is followed by twenty minutes of straight up evil laughter that gets edited out before posting
It's called being smug and I find it a bit annoying
@@excalibur2772 Yeah perhaps, but you learn to love it when binging the Big Joel collection.
@@Emiliapocalypse The real evil laughter was inside of us all along.
"Wait, it's all vitamins?"
"Always has been"
underrated comment lmao
Correct
qween
Wait you guys aren't getting payed for this!- Reactionaries in a nutshell
Haha my two favorite youtubers in one place!
The phrase, "This will follow them for the rest of their lives" is pretty suspicious too. That's a phrase you use for someone committing a terrible crime or doing some kind of shameful harm, not for having an experimental makeout session as a teenager.
In 2016, a lesbian flirted with me, and I haven't been able to function as a human being ever since.
@@clarapilier Yeah. I made out with a girl at a party in college. I wake up screaming from the nightmares every night.
@@clarapilier Thoughts and prayers
Right?? The waiter responded to the flirting with wanting to spend more time with the flirty dude. His only complaint was "bad kisser". What's the problem? How will a few bad kisses follow anyone for the rest of their lives? I've had some bad kisses and there's no following around for the rest of my life... 🙄 She's such a bitch.
👀
"If someone who is very masculine and been with women decides they're bisexual..."
Yes Tati, because masculine=straight and sexuality is definitely something one gets to decide
_good job not being homophobic_
That doesn't line up with the definition of homophobic whatsoever
@@maxieprimo2758 How much y'all want to bet this Maxie dumbass thinks that you aren't homophobic unless your literally afraid of gay people (afraid as defined by the homophobes themselves, of course).
If you wouldn't call it homophobic (which btw I still would) it at least demonstrates a harmful misunderstanding of sexuality and a perpetuation of hurtful stereotypes
@@peterprime2140 No? Calm down, dude. Words have meanings. Irrational aversion is very strongly different from flagrant misunderstanding and shit mindset. Before you go trotting around on your high horse, at least try figuring out what the other person thinks, ya nob.
@@ratmandraws I mean yeah, it does.
The way she held her monetary support for James over his head is more predatory than James flirting with a bicurious waiter
J Z yeah she’s quite the mentor when she’s actively keeping homophobic thinking whenever she’s with him, and she still attacked him because of vitamins
Ernesto Acosta I’m so tired I tried to retweet this RUclips comment. Do with that what you will lol
the fact that almost no one participating in this discourse besides Joel has called out Tati's blatant homophobia in the Bye Sister video is really concerning.
IKR??? It bothered me when I first watched it but I thought I was being sensitive 😂
It's almost as if straight people don't actually give a shit about homophobia... unless it benefits their image, of course
To be honest, I remember when I first watched Bye Sister I thought "I mean, you can't really trick someone into being gay but okayyyy..." but I didn't recognize the underlying homophobia of what she was saying. It seems so obvious now. Wish I didn't have to have someone point it out to me before I realized it. I'm glad Joel made this video.
I dislike James Charles because he seems annoying but it was definitely eye opening to see all the comments on him being str8 boys getting on the "I'm not homophobic as long as they stay away from me." No way that Tati couldn't have seen that coming, just blatantly playing off of the hysterical sexual insecurities of straight dudes.
And biphobia too- the whole “if a man is masculine and DECIDES to be bisexual then So Be It” is repulsive.
even if that’s not what she MEANT it’s still what she communicated and shows how utterly UNQUALIFIED she is to speak on LGBT+ issues.
"to safeguard this kid's sexuality... it's just homophobia" SOMEONE FINALLY SAID IT
Also calling a RUclips video where you accuse someone of rape “bye sister” is comically belittling
Could you imagine getting dragged off to prison on sexual charges you didn’t commit and the accuser just waved and says “bye sister!”
@@she7061Imagine being raped and keeping silent and then a random person makes the accusation and just goes “bye sister” to your rapist.
I don’t think many ppl realize the effect Tatis video had outside RUclips. My parents - who literally don’t even know who any of these ppl are - saw this drama circulating on Facebook and used it to further justify their homophobic beliefs. And I’m sure they weren’t the only ones. You can’t just attack someone for their sexuality like that and expect zero real world repercussions for other gay people
yeah most of my friends didnt look further into it and now think he's a predator 3 . 3
same like I can still remember what my mom said about gay people, I literally cried in my room for 2 hours straight because I am still in the closet and my mom is extremely prejudiced and used all these stuff to justify her ignorance and she had also recently watched the Michael Jackson wonderland documentary so she was full-on saying stuff about the gays being disgusting and predatory
@@nationssunshinefelix4482 Thats really fucked up and I'm sorry you had to go through that
They must feel so stupid to find out that James didn't do anything wrong after all.
@@nationssunshinefelix4482 Tell your mom to stop being so ignorant because clearly she doesn't know anything about gay people. And she seriously needs to stop _generalizing_ the entire gay community.
when this first came out and everyone was Villainizing James for “going after” a “straight man” it felt super uncomfortable and i couldn’t quite figure out why. now i know, it’s the homophobia.
Thousands of of kids were commenting about him being a bad kisser like they really wanted some famous young guy to feel ashamed for trying to find a partner
@@robotdowney oh dear...
Notice how taddi says “decides they are bisexual” implying that it’s a choice. Realizing who you are is like looking at the sky and seeing that it’s blue, you didn’t decide it was blue, it was always blue, always has been.
I decided to try out bisexuality on loan from the Gay Store, ended up returning it. Too many gay dudes trying to bisexual me up tbh.
@@bluemarb1e787 I don't what's better you're comment or the fact your user name uses the name blue meanwhile the OP used the color blue as an allegory(?)
Right. I know a guy, surprise surprise he's a conservative christian with terrible views on homosexuality, that claims he had a gay friend who after having sex with a woman was straight all of a sudden. All I could think was "the guy's probably bi".
Im more of a green sky kind of guy myself
@@burtbiggum499 hey man whatever goats your boat
I witnessed James Charles' rise in popularity in middle/high school, and the type of fans he had in my year were conservative Christian straight girls.
They called him "the gay guy on RUclips", and lamented about wanting a "gay best friend like him". They thought guys doing makeup was weird, but it was okay because "he's basically a girl". To them, his sexuality defined all aspects of him. They believed liking him made them exempt from homophobia.
What Tati and others fail to realize is that she perpetuated the myth that all gay men are predators or deviants because of their sexuality. James' crime was being a gay teen, and it was framed as criminal behavior in Tati's video. At high school for the next few weeks, there were a bunch of homophobic jokes and disgusted comments about gay men (from the aforementioned fans) and a lot more people equating James with Pro Jared. The damage Tati did to not only James, but the LGBTQ+ community as a whole, is extreme.
Edit: I live in a moderately conservative area (at a school with like four openly gay kids), and most teens around me knew of James as "the gay makeup youtuber". By insinuating James' sexuality was predatory, Tati managed to make several hundred children more blatantly hostile to LGBTQ+ people as a whole.
Says even more about these people that Pro Jared ended up being innocent in the end too
interesting perspective, thanks for sharing
@@billygoatguy3960 Pro Jared was innocent? I haven't heard any news about him since spring of 2019. What happened?
If they were already homophobic to begin with, why does Tati's video matter? Didn't they already believe the homophobic shit beforehand?
@@whyworld4936 from what i heard it was all consensual and the girls lied about their age, all settled in court
Big Joel tricked me into being gay for him
I'm a girl but same
@@MyOnlyRilakkuma He made you so gay that it rolled over and now you're straight again.
Those sweaters really get me going
same
@@nvoo123 gets the people goin'!
Tati literally is like “two other gay men forced me to be homophobic”
But they literally did
Shane's bisexual but yeah
@@bernice_anders you delusional AF! All 3 of those morons made their own ADULT decisions.
@@NONPOINT420 right. But adults can still be manipulated. This is not to say that Tati is not to blame, but she could have been convinced that James was a bad person. However of course, it was completely her decision to make that video. Jeffree, Shane, and Tati are all to blame in this situation.
@@NONPOINT420 And adults can't be manipulated? Sure Jan
Tati really posted a video complaining about James Charles being too gay and people just agreed
Now that i see it this way. Damn.
The only thing i agree with her about when it comes to him being "too gay" is when she complained that he talked about what he'd sexually do to other dudes (and, as she said, he talked about it explicitly lol) at a dinner with a bunch of peeps were who weren't his besties. That shit is kinda weird and makes shit hella awkward. Not to mention it's infront of her family, like wtf?! And I'd say the same thing if somone straight did that at a dinner I was at. I'd feel embarrassed as hell if a friend I invited to dinner with my family (again, wtf) and best friends would do shit like and I'd call them out for it privately (not thru a yt video and to millions of people obv, that's just scummy). Just generally, you don't do shit like that at dinners unless you're with people you're reaaaally close with and it's ok to talk about shit like that cause it's been done before. But then again, that's not being too gay, but too open about sexual shit...
Oh wow so she's just a basic homophobic binch, lovely
@@damjanp7920 Well I guess a grown up such as Tati could have interrupted and said "honey, this is not the time". It sounds like instead everyone acted like a bunch of children and were too embarrassed to say anything.
@@Blirre true, he was the kid at the table after all. The adults in his life could tell him that it was not the place nor time for that kind of talk.
As the manager of an escape room business, that's actually exactly what it's like. We lock you in a room and you have to guess our sexuality.
wouldn't it be more in line with the video if you locked us in a room and we had to seduce you into a sexuality other than your own to get out? initially from a hiring perspective i thought asexual staff would cover the most client bases, but you'd still have to keep hiring new asexuals, so it's probably better to have the same employees constantly switched back and forth, screening out the pansexuals obviously. they can wear different colored shirts to remember which sexuality they are that day
you wouldn't happen to have any straight staff would you? My gay friend is interested-
Sounds like 2020 to me
Lmao
It wasn't even a hair vitamin. I think that's the funniest part. Yes, Sugar Bear Hair is the name of the brand, but James was promoting their sleep aid. Halo Beauty doesn't offer a sleep aid. (Or at least they didn't at the time, I'm not sure if they have one now.) So there was no competition.
Kris exactly, he intentionally picked that product because of that ... he tried his best to consider her
that’s. extremely fucked up.
"I can' be homophobic, I have a gay adopted son" --Tati, at some point
man, hearing the biggest Joel make fun of Tati was weirdly healing after like... a year of not being able to brush off how eager everyone was to prove that homophobia is, indeed, alive and well
Ian - Absolutely Massive Joel Energy
yes!! exactly. you put it into words, thank you :,-) when the video came out and everybody was so quick to believe everything she said it was so frustrating
I know exactly what you mean :(
I find it kind of funny that she thinks a guy going on a date with another guy and deciding he’s not gay or bi will affect him for the rest of his life. Um, Tati trying to figure out who your into is THE ENTIRE POINT OF DATING.
Cause she's boomer,she don't get stuff
@@titusabrasaxsux what do you think boomer means? I think you don't know the meaning of the words you say.
@@adamlane6453
Lowercase boomer means old, out of touch, judgy.
You may be thinking of The Baby Boomer Generation, the term from which boomer derives.
So we're all finally talking about how homophobic those accusations were? Cause it was so openly homophobic it's confusing no one called that out
I think if the call-out had been for anyone else, there may have been more skepticism. Unfortunately for James, many people already thought he was vapid and annoying and were primed to believe any bad thing about him so long as they had an excuse.
Right?? "cracking somebody's sexuality follows them for the rest of their life"... Uhm? He flirted with the waiter, the waiter reached out to him, went to his hotel room and the only actual complaint was "bad kisser". How will that follow him for the rest of his life? I've had some bad kisses and I'm fine. 🤣
Nope, some youtubers actually called out on Tati's homophobia. Just because you're out of the loop doesn't mean that literally nobody called it out.
@Faraae, still, compared to Shane and Jeff it’s highly lacking.
RIGHT?? this bothered me so much
Tati’s subtle homophobia stinks of “straight girl who really wants a gay best friend”
Yes, as if he's an accessory. Gay friend = teacup poodle you can dress up and carry around in your purse.
exactly. they only wanna be friends with them because of the specific picture of a gay person they have in their mind and then think they are automatically absolved of homophobia. this also makes sense for why she just assumed the waiter to be straight. she knows what a gay man looks like! there's one sitting right in front of her! that's what all gay people are like! no complex personalities or ways of expression that differ from person to person! pffft gay people don't act like us normal folk!
Exactly, and he’s only valuable as long as he advertises her company and only her company
@@addison8212 that's so fucking insidious... like, being more empathetic and understanding of gay culture is too hard? So instead fabricate lies and instigate drama? Shouldn't she be worried about how that kind of thing would "stick with you for the rest of your life"?
Lesbian Amazon Sister Wait gay women exist?!?!?! Lol
She clearly believes a lot of stereotypes and is very ignorant... "Deciding" to be bisexual... Really lady? And she just had to throw "masculine" in there as if there aren't masculine gay men. She assumed the waiters sexuality and all she had to go on was... He's not feminine. 🤦🏻
And her face when she says masculine lol she really hates it
As a gay guy, watching Tati's video made me feel really uncomfortable, because she's careless and conflates having crushes on straight guys with being a predator. When Big Joel calls her video homophobic, I felt some dread that that's actually what I experienced, but I also felt recognized.
honestly, I don’t understand how everyone else didn’t see this at the time... I’m bissexual and have to listen to my female cousins complain when a lesbian will simply LOOK at them at parties, so I kinda got the same vibe from that video. It’s just so obviously homophobic.
But James had a history of that kind of behaviour.
@@agirl824 who else has accused him? Surely it's not anymore real than this situation if it was disproved so easily.
@@zayatamburelli5322 He was flat out a predator.
I'm straight male. I've had trans women and gay men hit on me. It's awkward turning down someone but no sweat as long as they don't persist, aren't NSFW and its appropriate venue. I'm not offended if someone makes a pass at me (whether women or man). It's a compliment. Anyone that's "offended" by a gay person making a pass at them is immature or a homophobe.
She's from a generation where accusations of nefarious homosexual activity was an effective way to hurt someone's reputation. The two Gen Z teens are not.
You know, her video made no sense to me until I read your comment. She's old enough to be from a time where "tricking" people into being gay was a real thing people believed in.
perfectly said y’all
Well put.
yet those gen z's you talk about jumped on the bandwagon as fast as they could and decided to cancell jc as they do with almost everyone on twitter for no reason
@casually cruel unfortunately so
"you tried to make a straight man think he's gay" is the biggest homophobic stereotype i can think of and the fact that the general narrative on twitter didn't IMMEDIATELY call that out speaks volumes about how qualified most of this crowd actually is to make and judge callouts
This. Every time I'm reminded of this drama, I think not about why Tati did it, that's quite obvious. I think about more than a million people supposedly open-minded enough to watch a make-up channel by a gay guy SOMEHOW swallowing the oldest and the vilest homophobic lie there is. Hook. Line. And sinker. Without asking for any evidence. We didn't "solve" homophobia, not even close. (And no, later events don't change the fact there was zero evvidence of any non-consent in this particular case.)
Yeah, has the same ring to it like "The gays want to convert our kids "
okay, but the thing that bugs me the most when talking about all this drama and tati herself is how people omit/don't realise that tati is basicaly an 'essencial oils mum' kind of person. like, i used to watch her before the bye sister video and even before her vitamins launch, and it peeked throught even then - how she hypes up everything 'natural' (nothing abou cruelty-free or vegan products, just 'natural'), how she genuinely seems to belive that vitamins/herbs/some other natural stuff do magic for your health... i just think, it's important part od tati's internet persona and by forgeting about it, we erase how basicly 'on brand' her freak out about the vitamins was - bcs by her 'everything should be natural and good for your health' attitude, promoting something that's 'not healthy' or 'just sugar' is a cardinal sin.
I totally agree with your comment. I was a Tati fan for a while as well, and I misinterpreted her all-natural stance for ethical consumerism. A lot of vegan makeup products tend to be cruelty free, but a huge ingredient beauty gurus never acknowledge is palm oil, whose production is destroying Indonesia. It's a testament to the mindset of close-minded vegans.
Well, that makes the homophobia even more disturbing given how one of the most common homophobic arguments is that anything that isn't heterosexual is "unnatural".
You are an intellectual and you should speak on it
Voldemort
Not to mention, that her vitamins have been debunked as being pretty much worthless and are incredibly overpriced.
@@durnsidh6483 Yeah but that has nothing to do with it. Vegans and environmental activists are not known for being big on homophobia.
I feel like attractive women trick me into being attracted to them all the time. How dare they inconvenience me like that! I never consented to being attracted to them.
Bro… that’s gonna stick with you for the rest of your life! How dare those harlots.
*DYING*
You joke but this this is literally most religious parts of the world.
Lesbian Amazon Sister username checks out.
I am so here for this analysis. These poor teenagers having their sexual experimentation put on blast, especially Sam, Tati did him WAY more dirty than James ever did, what if Sam had been in the closet living with his homophobic parents or something? Tati’s timing on this has been gross from the beginning, you don’t accuse someone of sexual assault because they didn’t promote your brand, if she’d known that all along then the vitamins shouldn’t have been the tipping point.
Its not like tati mentioned Sam's name or anything. sam came with his own video chasing for clout so I highly doubt he was a closeted person living with his homophobic parents
As a gay person, I’ve been seeing gay people say how they “like straight people” for years and years. And it’s not a sentiment to express them wanting to fucking prey on them, it’s one to express how often they accidentally have unrequited crushes on them. When people saw it another way, I thought I was in the twilight zone.
Yeah far as im aware its just 'the majority of people are straight but not me so its always a gamble whether or not a person is able to be attracted with me' wrapped up in a nice little phrase LOL
As a teenage girl I had at least one instance of falling in love with a gay guy and trying to convince him to "just try for me". I was such an asshole. It goes both ways. I wasn't predatory, I was just too selfish and ignorant to understand why what I was doing was no different than a guy trying to get with me when I wasn't interested.
EDIT: This was when Ricky Martin was still in the closet.. guess who the friend I targeted reminded me of. It would have been a sign... had we been open enough about that stuff at the time. Maybe if I'd pointed out this was in the 90s, I would have gotten a lot less shit for this comment. OP judges me on a 2020 metric when we're talking about a summer online in 1996.
When you're 16, living in the Bible belt, and still presumably straight (bi, hi) there's a lot of stuff you still don't understand. James may have dealt with a similar bubble just from being successful at such an early age. I mean Tati herself wouldn't shut up about how he was insulated from criticism. None of that makes him a predator, not even remotely. Ignorant and inexperienced? Well, duh. He was 19 and totally inexperienced with dating.
It'd be nice if all the people who made up fake screenshots claiming James m*lested their friend in a bathroom actually had to pay for making stuff up, but... we all know these things move too quickly to do anything but let the person take the damage and hope nobody remembers it as "one of the things that was actually true".
@@noh-1386 What do you think "predatory" means? Was there ever any predator that couldn't say "I wasn't predatory, I was just *selfish*"?
Wouldn't it be natural that gay men would have crushes on straight guys? There are WAY more straight guys than gay guys, thus a hell of a lot more options to look at/lust over. Straight men pine over "unattainable" women all the time (like my chances of being with Jennifer Lawrence are just as unlikely, if not more so, then a gay guy's chances with a straight man). The idea that gay men can Jedi mind trick a "100% straight" guy (no bi curiosity) into sex is also ridiculous.
NOHs Fairytale Files that sounds like being predatory to me fam
I've been a lil confused about my sexuality recently so I think I need to go see Tati so she can assign me a sexual identity that I'm not permitted to stray from
nicole perry same, i rally hope tati can figure my shit out for me
I wonder if she does gender too. If so I think I need to see her as well.
Roll a d20
@@armleg Roll 3d6, divide by 2 and round down. That’s your sexuality score
Good luck.
Are we also gonna talk about how she used a basic gay panic narative to fuel the hate and everyone just ate it up.
tati weaponized homophobia to take out a business rival and i really feel sorry for james, i hope that he holds his friends to a better standard than that now
He forgave her for the whole situation.
She's also pretty biphobic. I never decided to be bisexual. I didn't just *decide* it... That's the point. It's NOT a choice. Gosh. 🤦♀️
@@zombiematt2006 he's too nice
@@zombiematt2006 he should have sued everyone when he had the chance.
He's still a shallow media figure getting rich off of this lmao i still hate him and all the "beauty" fuckers
Let's just pretend this was a video you released back in 2019 and we're all finding it now
I dont know any of these people, so its all new to me!
lmao
true
LMAO
It's actually a really nice recap with everything going on now.
in hindsight, Bye Sister did the exact opposite of cancelling James Charles. instead it let him keep his career and platform despite the 15+ credible allegations of sex crimes with minors that have come out since Tati’s video. she wrote him a blank check to dismiss real crimes as more homophobia and youtuber drama
wait WHAT
@@gnocchidokey since he made the news in 2021 for sending nudes to a bunch of teen boys, every couple of months a new 15-18 year old boy has come forward with new nasty sexual DMs from James Charles-he likes them young and refuses to stop prowling for sex on social media.
He’s been able to throw a lot of money at hack influences to gas up his reputation (Brent Rivera house tour comes to mind) and at media outlets to soften/bury headlines. H3 has done a good job covering it whenever there are new allegations and treating it like the crime it is.
To this day I struggle to remember any evidence of James Charles doing something wrong. People just assume he was a huge predator for...reasons.
Ummm you serious? Are you fucking forgetting that he ummm... and uhhh.. oh and ON TOP OF THAT, HE ALSO .. yeah. That's undeniable and you know it.
This is one of the few reasons I think cancel culture actually is bad. Literally they just said, 'yeah he's a predator' and he came out, refuted the maybe one piece of evidence they had and then... nothing. But there are still BOATLOADS of people (even people I'm friends with personally) who still regurgitate that he's a predator... cause... reasons.
homophobic... reasons... perhaps...
Welcome to straight men fearing a gay man will force themselves upon them, and straight women fearing their men will get stolen. Wooooooo
It seems pretty obvious it is because he is "deviant"
The insane thing is they are both friends again!!!!!!!! James is crazy for being friends with her again. He doesnt have to take sides between Jeffree Shane and Tati, he should leave all of them.
I suppose he’s p young and he knew her when he was a literal child, so he probs gives her more leeway because of that
Eh its probably more PR than anything at this point.
@@amuletangeldevil or they aren't being childish tf.
She did imply that she's taking people to court so it probably benefits both of them 🤷🏿♀️
I don't think he is crazy. This was a really big transgression and I agree with everything Joel says, definitely much bigger than any minor things James did wrong. Also, the age difference does matter, she is old enough to know better. But that said, they apparently had a really genuine friendship before all this and she helped his career. If he wishes to choose to forgive then it is a virtue of his, as long as he does not forget and gives her less leeway if she does something else bad. I feel like we are too eager to drop and sever close connections in these times.
While we can hold James accountable for targeting underaged fans, this video’s main points of subconscious/“justified” homophobia (no thanks to Tati’s video and framing) still stand.
I see people saying Tati, Jeffree, Shane, etc. were right all along but it concerns me that many still don’t seem to get how damaging the “predatory gay” concept is and how so many immediately bought into it and still make jokes under those harmful beliefs. Like with James’ case, predatory behavior sources back to power, it ain’t about turning straight kids gay or some bullshit like that.
Literally nobody is saying Jeffree and Shane were right and justified lmao way to expose how little u understand the people you’re talking about
@I love Nicki Minaj
What fucking position do you think I’m arguing from?
You just might not be among the people I’m talking about because some *were* saying that (not like they were perfectly justified but that they were right all along about their accusations of James)
My concern is that if people keep switching back on simply who’s right, they forget the important details of what to denounce and what doesn’t deserve shit, like calling out predatory behavior doesn’t justify the jokes about “targeting straight guys” and “turning them gay”
@@ilovescaramouche4734 Yes they were. I've seen people say it. Lots of people were after the cancelling 2.0. You not thinking/saying something isn't the same as everybody not thinking/saying something #TheMoreYouKnow
Dont listen to this man, he claims to be Big Joel, but is actuality Small HEnry. He admitted it live on stream and I, for one, am shocked by this clear devious spread of maltruths from his mouth hole.
While I Know In My Heart ANd In My Brain that the Henry part is true, actually when he possibly admitted to being small he lied. Just fucking look at him, he's clearly of considerable volume.
Lmao
Slander. Big Joel is at worst a Medium Henry.
Mid-size Hank
Yass, expose him! Spill the true tea!
Has Tati ever met a straight man? Unless they are bicurious, you're not gonna just turn a straight guy gay, *especially* in public.
The Jovian its basically the same line of thought as those who believe you can turn gay people straight.
yeah. also how the fuck do you "trick a straight man into thinking they're gay"? wtf
asking for a friend
Yeah I've been treated in ways that make me uncomfortable by gay guys, and I'm straight, but they couldn't have tricked me into thinking I was gay. I would say that they seem predatory and creepy, but were they trying to "trick" me? Well, I think one of them was trying, but he couldn't magically make me like men.
has she ever met a young gay man, either? "Ewww, you made sexual innuendo and inappropriate jokes!" Most young men, including young gay men, make off-colour jokes around *their friends.*
Well, maybe all of the other gay guys Tati knows hold their tongues because they know what a prude she is.
@@LiberalSquared yeah sure, gay guys can be predatory or creepy in the same ways straight men can (and women, and nb people) but "tricking" anyone into thinking they're a different sexuality is just a bullshit accusation
With these new accusations, Tati either knew and didn't care until James started promoting different vitamins, or did not know and therefor lied, because he promoted other vitamins. The new accusations do not "vindicate" her claims.
Yes it does, try again.
@@narcabusefreezone6798 no u
I'm more on the "Didn't know" camp. If Jefree, Shane or Tati had known about, they would've blasted it everywhere. Why bother to make up shit if truth is right there?
That’s what’s always bothered me about Tati. Whether her claims were justified or true, she chose to stay silent on the matter until she wanted to get revenge on James. That says everything about her.
@@Ruosteinenknight Well, Shane has an iffy past with minors as well, so ...
*JAMES!*
*HE'S STRAIGHT, JAMES!!!*
*H E ' S S T R A I G H T ! ! ! ! !*
*J A M E S ! ! !*
J A M E ' S H E ' S S T R A I T ! ! ! ! !
straight gay
_He’s straight_ *J a m e s.*
*pulls out spray bottle* No! Down
girl. Bad James!!
*JAMES?*
*JAMES?!*
*J A A A A M E S !*
video disliked. You don’t have enough paintings of that girl with the red dress and dog thing
I think it’s an ermine but I’m not sure
lmAo
He needs at least ten more.
dog THING?
It's a cat 😹
Dude, you had all the answers back in 2019 but everyone doubted you. Lmao at that person who said "yikes, bad take" or whatever. You had the answers.
the whole gay preditor stereotype that Tati made James out to be is pretty homophobic too
"Pretty homophobic" nah Super homophobic
Absolutely homophobic
This is something I'm p sure Jeffree tried to do too? And it bothers me how many people jumped on it. Just, taking people's word that a young effeminate gay man was a sexual predator and jumping on that idea with no proof and continuing to believe it and other shitty accusations even when James was like "babe I have reciepts to prove ALL this shit wrong" and laid it out, like. Say what you want about James but im very sure 99% of people hating on him is just fulfilling a desire to shit on a popular guy who happens to be gay, without being able to just say homophobic shit outwardly
She's christian so... 2 + 2?
talking super sexual about someone you want to bang at a table isn't cool. At all. It is gross coming from anyone. Gay people can be victims too. Bi people can be victims too. It's straight up harassment to talk sexually about someone you're not that way with.
The Existential Horror of Big Joel's Video Titles
the big joel of existential horror video titles
The Existential Joel of Big Video’s Horror Titles
The Video Titles of Big Joel's Existential Horror
The Titles of Joel's Video: Big Existencial Horror
The Dark Souls of Big Joel Titles
It's ridiculous that people are staning Tati again. She didn't know about the the situation involving the minors, she was just being a homophobe. James isn't a good person and neither is Tati.
You said it perfectly. Regardless of what James actually is and does, Tati only spoke out to hurt him after he advertised a rival brand. It was about the vitamins.
This. One does not absolve the other. What she said is gross and harmful. It doesn't exist in a vacuum, only affecting James. Like you said, both are not great people.
Hmm... Being masculine and being with women means you have to "decide you're bisexual"
I'm really tired of the way non mspec people talk about our sexualities
Mspec?
@@peterprime2140 multi-sexual spectrum. So bisexual, pansexual, polysexual, omnisexual, people who don't like labels but know they're attracted to more than 1 gender, lots of folks
Twisty Sunshine Considering that the most commonly accepted (in queer spaces) definition of bi has changed and doesn’t reinforce gender binary anymore, why can’t we just say bi or bispec? I love that there are so many labels, because it helps us understand ourselves, and the identities I have are “microlabels” (genderfluid pansexual greyromantic), but sometimes I feel like we’re just causing division by not agreeing on definitions and forgetting about umbrella terms that already exist, and endlessly tacking on new letters to our acronym.
@@ostsarahb7466 I don't think respecting peoples identity as pan or omnisexual or whatever they want is "divisive". Mspec has been a word since at least 2014 (that's 6 years now) even if everyone doesn't know it. I don't see what I gain as a bi person by forcing a pan person to identify as "bispec" and inherently saying my label is the best label. That seems way more divisive than saying "mspec" a word that literally already includes everyone affected without forcing them to sorta/kinda identify as bi
Twisty Sunshine Fair enough, but it’d be nice if there were more official definitions of all of these terms. Also, if a person says they don’t like a specific label, I won’t use it for them personally, but sometimes when you want to mention a group as whole it can be a pain in the ass to take everyone into account. Like the word “queer” for example. I know of some people who aren’t cishet allo sexual alloromantic and don’t want this label used for them and I don’t refer to them specifically as queer. But when the most accepted definition for queer is someone who isn’t cishet sexual alloromantic, are we seriously gonna have to say that or LGBTQIA+ every time we want to refer to our community?
I guess mspec is short enough at least. Idk... but thanks for taking the time to have this conversation with me. I might actually change my mind eventually. Because, you know, I really want to agree with you. Hanging on to old words not everyone likes makes me feel like a reactionary. But the part of me just thinks “bi = both same and different genders/two or more genders, pan = regardless of gender, therefore pan attracted to all genders therefore pan is included in bi” 😅
Look Joel, I love you, I respect you, I love every one of your videos. But this has been bothering me forever. Why do you have 2 of the exact same pictures behind you. Why. Its been torturing me forever why must you need to have 2 pictures of that little girl in the dress holding a cat. Why.
Is one a mirror reflection? I don't know I keep looking at it too
@@MadeleineSwannSurreal It is a separate picture, of that I assure you.
@@eggynack really? How peculiar
I'm honestly more bother by how there aren't 2 of the same painting on both sides so it could match
There was a sale. Buy one creepy little girl in a dress holding a cat, get one free. And Joel was never one to turn down such a good deal!
I just rewatched this video and realised I misheard Joel. I thought he said Tati experienced “VITAMIN TRAUMA”. When he actually said “vitamin drama”. I mean that’s still funny but for 3 years now I’ve incorporated the phrase vitamin trauma into my vocabulary. I actually have never had a chance to use it but I use the term in imaginary situations to myself all the time.
(She's talking about her vitamin pain)
(Her broken arm is vitamin pain)
Maia Gaia
Vitamin Pain needs to be a hard rock song!
Tati got away with it because she's got this image she's cultivated of being classy, intelligent, older and wiser. And yes I still stand by the fact they this was all over vitamins. It wasn't about his behaviour toward straight men oe she wouldn't have waited for him to slight her for her to come out with it. If she genuinely thought James was dangerous she was obligated to tell people. So she either believed he was a predator and sat on that information for months or she lied because she was upset about vitamin sales.
Then there's the Jeffree and Shane influence. Yikes.
I never figured out how she managed to maintain this image. When the drama first started, people kept bringing up that she “never gets into drama” so it must be true BUT SHE HAD BEEN IN DRAMA BEFORE. Literally the only real explanation I’ve seen was that she’s an older women on the beauty side of youtube so everyone wanted to treat her like an oppressed minority.
She’s nothing but a manipulative coward
Merry Berry She was the white straight woman that cried wolf and everyone believed her.
@@merrybright5732 people forget the older drama because in comparison to the bigger drama like dramageddon for example, she's remained drama free. She's gotten into tit for tat drama with a couple of smaller youtubers but never anything major like racism, homophobia (until bye sister) etc so its been seen as comparatively small and not note worthy. She's remained fairly unproblematic in comparison to people like Laura Lee, manny MUA, Jefferson starship et al.
UltraViolence that’s fine for trying to say that she’s not problematic to a “cancellable” degree, but people use the idea that Tati “doesn’t get into drama” to call her mature and usually phrase it as though she has never done anything as petty as have a squabble on twitter. At least that’s the narrative I usually see. And even though she hadn’t demonstrated issues such as racism, she had already befriended Jeffree and others who were known to be problematic. This at the very least demonstrated that she wasn’t above the majority of the beauty side of youtube as people were claiming
D'Angelo Wallace shouting out the biggest Joel, you love to see it.
D’est of Angelos, Biggest of Joels
Can someone explain to me how you trick people into thinking they’re gay? Like I never get that argument what does that even mean?
It’s a stupid fear tactic used by heteronormative media where men especially are afraid they might want a little D so they blame the gay guys for tricking them into it. Anyone can be tricked into sex, but I personally don’t get how they think a gay guy can go into their head and trick them into being gay
^ T H I S
its a dumb concept that perpetrates the negative stereotype that all homosexual men are sexual deviants and predators that prey on straight people for reasons. also what Vered Pinhas said, alot of dudes are afraid to come out.
I guess you could make an argument if a guy is with a pre-op minimal hormonal treatment ftm... as in, essentially f as far as someone else's sexuality would be concerned.
"You're gay"
"No I'm not"
"Yes you are"
"Oh, okay, makes sense. You're right"
How do you crack someone’s sexuality? If they become attracted to someone unexpected, that possibly has always been there.
Right, a lot of straight/cis people just seem to have no understanding of repression. They think it's a process of moving from Point A to Point B, when in reality there never really was an A to begin with.
Everyone wants a gay best friend till we start dating your dad.
I call your father "daddy" too.
@@NIHIL_EGO Both of these comments took me out at 6 in The morning
To quote a world famous drag queen, “If you marry your stepdad, do you become your own mom?”
LMFAO perfection
Honestly, I’d be happy if I found out my dad was bi. It would let me know that there’s another queer person in my family.
How do you trick someone who's straight into thinking they are gay? Is it some sort of jedi mind power? "Those are not the boobs you were looking for."
Didn’t you get the “Cracking the Straights’ Sexuality” chapter in your How to LGBT Handbook?
This is how this drama goes down between people that are true friends:
1: Sorry, I had to do this, I needed security at the moment, I was feeling scared.
2: Oh, my God. Did something happen to you?
1: Thankfully, no. But I'm calling you to let you know, because, I don't want you to think that I'm betraying you.
2: It sucks that you felt scared. You needed the help, I understand.
1: Yes, and it is a one-time thing.
2: It's ok, the important thing is that you are fine.
1: Thank you so much for understanding.
2: It's fine. Anyway we have a thing on Sunday, are you coming?
1: Sure, see you then.
I mean it’s accurate, but have you ever had a friend sell fake vitamins that are the competitor of your fake vitamins for the whole world to see. That’s an open wound that could never heal, let’s be sympathetic to the absolute horror tati went through and still goes through every waking moment
@@misspeaches1144 not to mention, would she feel better if james got injured from being mobbed at Coachella (staying or trying to leave) just to protect her feelings as a teenager.
Maheen M.K i feel ashamed for leaving out that important issue
Everyone saying this didn’t age well is dumb LMAO it doesn’t change the fact that Tati did her part in perpetuating weird outdated gay stereotypes and a bunch of real shady shit
it's actually even weirder considering that shit was going on and Tati didn't mention it
@@Sebvibevanse she’s legally not allowed to or she’d get sued for defamation
@@ilovescaramouche4734 defamation is a _false_ statement that does harm to someone’s reputation & James being a bad person doesn’t make Tati a good one or her original video any less of a baldly corporate ploy
@@syrme2486 ok but accusers of famous predators constantly get sued for defamation there were multiple defamation cases made against acusers of Harvey Weinstein before things came out
Honestly James Charles acts like a walking awful gay stereotype
Never thought I'd see a video about the beauty community by Big Joel 😳
I said the same about Jenny Nicholson and yet here we are
@PetulantRosewulf Everything can be an insult if you want it to be. I'm stoked.
Truly glad for it though, haha
I'm loving it. So great!
It was bound to happen
I just had a dream that you reviewed fruits and vegetables from the supermarket on this channel. It was lovely
Would watch
Maybe he should
god i hope he makes this
Joel plz 'The Existential Horror of Organic Mangoes'
He was very hung up on texture for some reason
Big Joel: We don't know what skeletons James Charles might have in his closet...
Me watching in May 2021: Let me tell you something....
it’s 2021
@@lea2820 Um, yes... I knew that 😅
This is one of the main issues I have with cancel culture. Everyone is so quick to jump to these conclusions when we truly have no idea. I mean, god, I hate Onision but people ignored what he's been saying about Shane for YEARS!
@SleeperInTravel but with these new accusations, that means that Tati either knew and didn't care until James started promoting different vitamins, or did not know and lied, because he promoted other vitamins. This does not "vindicate" her claims.
It went so left..
The most frustrating thing about this video was the aftermath. People took the claim that James was a preadator and used it to push the stereotype that gay men are a threat to straight mens sexuality
Yup. She essentially gave a free pass for any homophobe online that already hated JC for being a feminine gay man to bully him and tell about their horrible experiences where they once went into a gay bar and some gay men looked in their direction and how it traumatized them for life.
@@aby110 And now that James Charles winded up sexting with minors, some are trying to give Tati a redemption arc because she was "right all along". Uh...no. She allied with Shane Dawson and Jefree Star to push some made up shit to settle a grudge over a vitamin deal. Just because Jimbo ended up fucking it up AFTER her BS accusation on separate thing entirely, doesn't mean she was "right all along."
I can only assume the evening started with "Good evening my name is Sam, I'll be serving you tonight, by the way I'm straight"
This breakdown of Tati's video is still so relevant even with the recent, significantly more substantive accusations against James. It's been so frustrating seeing people go "Tati was right" when in reality she was at best a petty business rival who MIGHT have picked up on some vibes or had access to some form of accusation (that we've never seen) but could only process them through the lens of homophobia. Which is not "right" at all, she doesn't even get the way James' predatory behaviour manifests right.
So true. She wasn’t right in her video and everything Joel says is true about her clear homophobia. She didn’t mention anything about James going for minors
Yes thank you! I would not characterize her as correct at all. The accusations she made were rooted in homophobia and personal disputes. Just because he happened to do something slightly near what she was accusing him of does not make what she did at the time right. If anything it makes it worse because it took so much longer for the real accusations to come out because of her false ones.
Right. James is a pest against underaged fans in his DMs. Not the bi-curious, legal age waiter
I always disliked the entire basis behind the complaints against Mr. Charles. Like, you can't "crack" peoples sexualities. You can't trick someone who doesn't want you into being with you (generally).
Yeah... That kind of shit only happens in abusive manipulative relationships over a long time.
Yup. Also someone can be 99% straight and meet the one gay individual that they find attractive. SEXUALITY👏🏻IS👏🏻A👏🏻SPECTRUM
@Randall Paquet I'm talking in this specific scenario it would take time; as you would have to gaslight them.
yeah, and also sexuality is not relevant in cases of abuse, it was so weird to see that being mentioned like 20 times in Tati's video. Straight or gay, manipulating a person into having sex or doing sexual acts with you is wrong, THAT SHOULD BE THE MAIN THESIS, CONSENT. But "tricking them into thinking they're gay"? Incoherent as fuck. Rape isn't somehow worse because the victim wasn't attracted to their offender's gender, it's just BAD in every circumstance.
I truly didn’t reflect enough at the time how much the whole original ‘cancelling’ was all about leaning into the gay man = predatory, esp given by someone like TATI. I definitely forgot just how young James was at the time versus all of the literal adults coming for him. I’m not a fan of James Charles and never have been but he didn’t deserve all of this, especially since there were so many sinister motives from the adults.
This was all a bit odd for me. I'm 39. I don't have teenage friends. It's just not a circle I run in. I don't think it's evil per say, I just find it odd. At my age, you are more a mentor than a friend when someone is that young. I get the homophobic element, but Tati seems very immature for someone in her late 30s.
So did Shane feed her lies about the story that she said she witnessed first hand?
In Tatis second video she talked about her lawyers telling her what she could talk about. So she might be looking into legal action against Shane Dawson and Jeffree Star in this whole situation.
she said she was shown a clip of the elusive voicemail jeffree keeps parading around and he constantly kept bad mouthing james to her when her opinion of him was already sinking, and allegedly that influenced her. jeffree absolutely could have done that, he seems like he has it in for james and he openly fanned the flames even more on the bye sister video by immediately jumping on it and saying he had actual proof of him being a predator.
Say that sis 🔥
Who knows. Probably. But she’s just as culpable. Shane is a garbage can of a person. So is Tati and so is Jeff
And after all of this, Tati and Jefree Starr got away with this scheme almost scot-free, Partly due to James being very apologetic about the whole situation. Probably because it was good for business, I can't blame him for that but it might also have been because of some sort of inexplicable guilt which had been gaslighted onto him. HE HAD EVERY RIGHT TO BE MAD, his so called 'friends' backstabbed him and almost ended his career plus destroyed his life.
'Whatever the reasons were for his apologetic attitude, after this drama had backfired right into Tati and Jefree's faces James Charles didn't regain all of his subscribers and Tati and Jefree never lost any subscribers either. In fact; they gained subs!
On top of this, James, despite being vindicated still has this subconscious association of being a predator among a lot of people in this community who never bothered to hear his side or did, but still associates him with the first thing they heard which was Tati's side. This association also reinforces the old homophobic myth that gays are out to force straight people to have sex with them, which is ridiculous and damaging to the gay community.
It really feels like Injustice was dealt here and the moral of this story really feels like 'the bad guys' got away with this.
smh, just my two cents. (also credit to my man TRO for some of my points)
I think he really cared about tati. That's why he is so apologetic. I hope he stays the heck away from her.
@@familyguy160 I mean, I get that, that's where my point of him being gaslighted comes from. I didn't word it clearly enough but that was kind of what I was getting at. he still felt like him and Tati were friends and so he took on some guilt for himself when it wasn't his fault, telling himself and lying to himself that Tati is still his friend.
Tati probably spun her own story to James so he could forgive her. Really shitty what she and Jefree did, though.
What's funny is that both Tati and Jeffree are losing thousands of subs each day now and James has millions more than they do
@@Terrovax Oh yeah, some karma, at last.
And then James played himself by fr hitting on a 16-year-old 😐
yeah he did, but i think this video still stands. the narrative was "he's threatening straight boys with gayness" but actually he was threatening MINORS which is the actual bad. homophobia blinded the people calling him out and it allowed him to defend himself
@@MadderCommotion It also still stands because Tati was making these accusations of James when he was himself still 16-19. When she made that video James was 19 and she was talking about situations that had happened in previous years.
The whole Tati drama happened when James was still a teenager himself. That's why her accusations had nothing to do with "minors".
Her internalized homophobia put her on the wrong path, she was this close.
@@m00nrac00n Internalized? Isn't she straight?
There's definitely something to be said here about how easy it is to weaponize homosexuality. And how easy it is to play into straight men's anxieties and fears about being flirted with by gay men. There's a reason why it's called "homophobia." Fear of gay people.
LISTEN JACK HE'S STRAIGHT, JACK HE'S STRAIGHT, *JACK*
Interesting how men’s anxieties are labeled as some form of phobia, hence disclaiming it. Women and gay’s anxieties are legit. Forever the fucking victims, especially when you are being serve the same medicine that you so eager to dole out to others.
@@PungiFungi No. A straight man's fear of a gay man is usually based off homophobia. These are the type of guys who are scared to be perceived as gay for liking something effeminate. They also tend to bully gay men as well. Their fear IS illegitimate because it is just an excuse to be hateful.
it's all vitamins?
always has been
Sawtooth Waves I thought it was all cake?
Sawtooth Waves omg what are you doing here 🤣
Yooooooo, sup sawtooth
This hits different 9 months later.
The level of smooth brain-ness or bigotry (or both) that it takes to imagine that someone can "tricked" into being gay is Amazing!... and grotesque.
Exactly! Especially because many straight people have always feared gay people "turning them" and I remember even before the whole drama there were a ton of jokes like "Like this comment or James Charles will kiss you"
I kind of agree, but there are true stories about young straight or bi-curious people who were in a relationship with an uneven power dynamic and may have been pressured to do what they didn’t really want to do. For example - both husbands of Joe Exotic
i’m obsessed with how he says tati.... “toddy”
@Randall Paquet In Portuguese it's usually like "Tah-tee", so it sounds super weird but also kinda cute how he says
Randall Paquet when i used to watch her she would pronounce it “tah-tee” like João said.
I think what sucks the most about this (and says a LOT) is that Tati’s homophobic rhetoric and _obviously_ self-serving motives distracted from what the real problem actually was. A lot of people were hesitant to call him out on his ACTUALLY predatory behavior because they were so ashamed for the community’s behavior regarding the homophobia from a year prior. Tati, Shane, and Jeffree were too big-headed, self-serving, and greedy to approach any of this from a standpoint of actually wanting to fix a problem.
Jeffree and Shane apparently knew about his actually predatory behavior and have voice memos to prove it, but once it looked like the tide was turning in James’ favor when everyone suddenly realized how blatantly homophobic the initial claims were, they decided to not release them because they had something to gain from just dropping it. It’s a horrible situation and I wish it could have been handled by rational adults that weren’t in it to boost themselves financially. The blatant homophobia from Tati and her garbage whiny motives, and Jeffree and Shane’s makeup promotion and manipulation rooted in greed is what let James get away with it for another year. Terrible all around.
Late to the partyyy!! But this idea that there is “ACTUAL predator behavior”, happening that is only backed up by two actual predators (Shane & Star) kind of seems like a repeat of Tati’s shit. but if it’s true: let me knoww!
I respect the hustle Joel, but for those actually thinking about getting the Raycon's, don't lol. They are very bad. And even if they weren't, they are just rebranded buds by companies like Blitzwolf who sell the same thing for
For real? I need new earbuds; what brand do you recommend? I can't do the tiny airpod style ones. I will absolutely lose them within 24 hours
@@k3upikachu There's a pretty good variety out there. What's your budget?
> = greater than, < = less than
@@emilyhong2311 Thank you, I'm dyslexic and get them mixed up all the time.
I really like skullcandy. I have a pair of over the ears headphones and they last 20+ hours and they cost like 25 dollars. Best earbud purchase. Oh and they sometimes sell them at Ross for like 10 bucks.
“It was vitamins the whole time? “Always has been.”
*pow*
i love how tati’s accusation is exactly the same flavor as outraged parents of a gay son accusing their son’s partner that he’s who turned their son gay in like, the 1940s
Tati shouldn’t have been forgiven so quickly for her role in all of this. She literally did this for gummy vitamins. She’s a horrible person and friend. I wouldn’t have forgiven her if I were James.
Wow this might have been the dumbest drama ever to occur within RUclips. Had no idea how petty and useless this was.
@TheLostAge They should have stayed on Myspace
How disrespectful. I’m sure you’ve never had a fake friend fake betray you over fake vitamins, you could never understand the pain
Gotta love how everyone who was cancelled was so because of the wrong reasons lmao. THEY'RE RACIST SIS
Tati Westbrook: Horny Police
@@abolishpolice5232 Honestly she comes of as a simple biphobe and greedy businesswoman
I thought her "tricking straight guys" narrative was weird but I found it so difficult to put my finger on it because I'm bisexual. I don't comprehend being "tricked into an orientation" because I'm literally _all_ of the orientations... so I figured me not getting what Tati was saying was just my limited world view. There's being predatory and manipulative, yes, I get that, I get grooming and bribery and abuse of power but she kept going on about "tricking straight men" and I was kinda like... but how. How... I don't get it. How do you... how do you trick someone into being attracted to you when they're not? What is this witchcraft? And she said he would 'threaten to ruin them'... like where? HOW? GAYNESS? "If you don't gay I'll tell people you're gay and you'll never work another day in your life"? I don't... I still don't get what she was implying.
Man. This is so wierd.
Had no idea who James Charles was before contrapoints and then I didn't really realize the scale.
Thank you for properly explaining internet wierdness
Haha contrapoints was my starting point into these kinds of video's. Her amazingness got me sucked into all these other awesome channels too.
The way that Tati deflected everything to Shane and Jeffree when they were having their public downfalls is very telling
Isnt it crazy that James Charles did turn out to be horrible but tati’s video still remains horrible
Any "influencer" turning out to be horrible is pretty much the least crazy thing that can occur
@@SubmitToTheBiomass kind of agree, kind of find it reductive. But it’s fascinating in a fucked up way when someone can be correct but also wrong in their approach
i think Tati is still wrong. she didn't know shit, she just kinda made a problem where there wasn't. like you can't just make shit up about people and then get vindicated when they do something wrong later.
Yeah, it is funny that she probably didn't actually care about all the real predatory shit he did and just made up a fake one.
Big Joel's video is genuinely so well thought out that even though James Charles is a total creep, Big's criticisms are still 100% valid.
Maybe it's just me having been raised by a conservative Catholic mother but from the start it hit me that Tati's biggest accusation was honestly that James embarrassed her in front of other people. It never seemed to be about sexual misconduct to me, because the way I was raised, embarrassing another person, especially a parent (figure), is the worst crime there is.
0:03 Introduction
0:29 Part One - RECAAAAAP
4:46 Part Two - VITAMIIIIINNNNS
7:55 Part Three - NO MORE LIES
12:52 Part Four - SATAN
18:36 Sponsor / Raycon
19:38 Patreons / Patreon Question of the Video / Outtro
Thanks dude:)
I'm glad you put a time for the raycon ad bc it might have been the best youtube sponsorship segment ive ever seen
watching this video in May 2021 is a whirlwind of emotion
Plot twist: Big Joel made this video to advertise his vitamins
Or sbh bc he was sponsored by them
THANK YOU FOR FINALLY POINTING OUT THE BLATANT HOMOPHOBIA OH MY GOD
It’s interesting to go back to this video after everything that’s happened now with James, Shane, etc. It still doesn’t negate the points you made against Tati, though.
I was getting some serious pearl clutching vibes from her comments. She pretends to be ok with gay people but at the same time thinks that being sexually curious and sleeping with someone of the same sex could ruin your life if you turned out to not be gay or bi, almost as if she thinks that kissing or flirting is a scary and dangerous thing for gays to do. Like… I’m gay and I’ve kissed girls before. That doesn’t bother me at all. Why should it? It was a consensual act between me and my previous partners. By her logic, I should be recoiling in fear, sick to my stomach, the ghosts of the girls I crushed on haunting my gay little ass. She really didn’t think that out because it genuinely just comes off as incredibly homophobic. She’s the kind of person to say “I don’t care about the gays, just don’t shove that shit in my face” as if the LGBT community exists only to make straight white men and women uncomfortable.
Do I like James? No, especially not after the recent events have unfolded. Do I like Tati? No, I feel like she’d faint if she so much as saw one (1) leather daddy at pride. Tbh nobody in their little friend group is worth any time (except for Garret, he’s great) and the drama surrounding their toxic little community just reminds me of petty high-school drama that has absolutely no reason to exist other than to alienate others and punch down to raise themselves up.
Even though Tati claims that Shane and J. Star manipulated her into creating the video, I think it’s unfair to totally devoid her of any consequences. At the end of the day she’s a fully grown woman with a lot of money and she’s proven to be intelligent and business savvy. She’s not the little innocent easily manipulated baby that she’s trying to portray herself to be.
This whole drama is so insane whilst still being so incredibly dull. I don’t even watch makeup channels anymore (other than “Murder mystery and makeup Monday’s” and “Bad movies and a beat” but that’s mostly because the people putting the makeup on are so interesting to listen to lmao)
Cishet guys will be like ‘jeez you can’t even FLIRT anymore without being canceled’ and that’s really not true for them, but it was true here
I hated Tati and her video but wow this really highlights how homophobic she was huh
I did not expect to be defending James Charles's makeout skills today, but sure, I guess this is my life now. As a lesbian who made out with a few guys before figuring out my sexuality...Kissing someone you're not sexually attracted to is weird af. Just super unpleasant. The waiter seems to identify as straight now, so it's possible that he thought James was an awful kisser mainly because he wasn't attracted to him and wasn't getting any feel-good chemicals.
18:37 when you realize the video about how RUclips drama is manufactured to sell products was also trying to sell you products 😨
Can we talk about Sam's lil earrings tho bc they're cute thanks
no we can not! you are clearly trying to trick Sam into being gay with this compliment.
Came here from dangelowallace’s video, definitely subscribing. You’re very put together and your points make sense. She just doesn’t care unless it costs her money.
our biggest joel getting more subscribers, love to see it