I like this theory, but a large piece of the puzzle that is not addressed in this video is the Messengers' presence in Pthumeru. In the chalice dungeons, you find both statues of Messengers as well as an actual Messenger tending a blue lamp. The game states that Gherman was the first Hunter. Yet Messengers predate his existence.
Very good lore video. It's still vague, but true to the source material and summarizes everything around the messengers very well. I also like your way of thinking. Like myself, you seem to be in search of the motives of the Moon Presence, which is by definition something that is impossible for us. But it's still a quest worth investigating. I guess, you already know this, but the Japanese name of the Winter Lanterns is "ほうすき" (or "housuki" in Romaji). As far as I understand Japanese folklore, that actually refers to Chinese winter lanterns, which in turn refers to objects, that are used once and then get carelessly thrown away. And while objects treated with good care might return as good spirits in Japanese belief, carelessly tossed objects might come back as evil demons. There are even burial ceremonies for dolls in Japan. How does that all refer to Bloodborne and our Winter Lanterns? Easy (With a bit of Yharnam blood of you own... back to topic), especially if you think about the Dolls only cut line of dialog. I know, cut dialog is widely not considered "canon", however most of the cut lines are things that are still consistent with the game, but were simply too unnecessarily clear and got cut for the sake of narrative trust in the player. And that is true for the Dolls cut dialog. The doll's cut line is "I must have displeased you. Go on, shut me down. Even though this vessel will remain in Your service. So have no fear. I must have displeased you." The thing about this line is, that that's how the doll is working ingame. If you're not satisfied with her, you can kill her without fear of losing her ability. For example, Speedrunners kill her, as killing her is faster than clicking through her dialog. You can still use her vessel afterward to level up. And the new vessel, which comes the next time after loading the Hunter's Dream will have no memory of you. She will say the exact same dialog, when you originally talked to her with 1 insight. Some people think, that's a bug or something, but it's actually intentional. The Doll migt be back, which is a relief for people who killed her by accident. But it's actually not the same person with her previous memories anymore. (Some Nier: Automata in Bloodborne so to say) The connection to the Winter Lanterns from there is actually quite easy. With endless numbers of past hunters (you even talked about thousands of years in your video, which might be accurate) and endless numbers of parallel worlds, there are a lot of hunters, who threw away their doll, which spawned the Winter Lanters. However, it's not as easy to tell why they are covered in Messengers. Maybe the Messengers want to hide this cruel reality from the hunter, which would drive him crazy? And the tossed doll just wants to ... hug you? and eat you... No seriously, I could totally see that being a twisted version of the doll's last dying wish. I think other than the grip, the Winter Lanterns actually don't even have any attack. Except for the passive frenzy attack, of course. Edit: I'm just watching your "Bloodborne: A very Japanese Horror" video. And there's a lot of this in here as well.
I think that's a really interesting way to look at the doll and the winter lanterns. It's perfectly plausible that you could be right. My own perspective is slightly different. My theory is the winter lanterns are related to curses - specifically cursed dreams or nightmares. The defiled chalice description it states "Curses are caused by inciting the anger of the Great Ones, and used to hex others". We know the dreaming realms were created by great ones. So we can think of the Nightmare of Mensis, N Frontier, Hunter's Nightmare, Fishing Village etc as cursed realms. And cursed realms produce cursed versions of the doll, which seem to be necessary artefacts of the dreams. Remember, Winter Lanterns only appear in Nightmares and are the only enemy to drop cursed blood gems, insinuating they carry a curse themselves. Unfortunately for the messengers who travel between realms, they cant tell the difference between a doll and a WL, and end up caught and trapped.
Thank you for taking your time and answering! Yes, great point. I'm also aware of the fact, that Winter Lanterns are typically located in the nightmare areas and that they are related to curses. I'm thinking that while the doll is totally willing to give her "live" blindly for whatever pity reason the hunter has to rid her, a curse still occurs. I have no idea, how exactly that happens or why the Winter Lanters end up in the nightmare realms. I just think, that the Hunter's Dream is connected to the Nightmares and that connection lets them end up there. But I have too little information for that.
@@CycloneFox great insight on the Winter Lanterns! I think they are natives of the Nightmares, that came into being from pieces of each aspect of Maria from different Nightmares interconnecting which is shown in several ways. There's the fact you can visibly see one nightmare realm from the other and that you could travel from one to another as shown by the snail women that falls from the hamlet into the Hunters Nightmare. There's also the Wandering Nightmare enemy that can vanish, presumably traveling into the dreamlands. The School of Mensis was trying to revive Kos (Micolash says the School was praying to it for eyes) into the One Reborn which ties together the Nightmare of Mensis and Hamlet. The research done in the Research Hall was based on Kos, and the Nightmare of Mensis was made to revive Kos and be granted eyes like Rom so it seems like the the Brain of Mensis was derived from the Research Hall. The goal of the Research Hall was too grow eyes on the inside and the Brain of Mensis seems to be the pinnacle of that research. Winter Lanterns are the only enemy, other than Wandering Nightmares, that are in all the Nightmares and are never found in the waking world. Also, the Doll, Brain of Mensis, and the Lanterns all respond to the Make Contact gesture. Also, at the top of each Archtree in the Hunters Dream there is presumably another Doll so that could be the source of the bodies for the Lanterns as dialogue from the original N. American version implies the doll dies and a new one takes its place. When Hunters die they go to the Hunters Nightmare so possibly when dolls die they go to a Nightmare as well which is when they come into contact with Enlarged Heads that attach to them. The Doll says she feels better when Maria is killed and when you give her Maria's hair ornament so she may feel happy about being joined with an Enlarged Head. TLDR; Lanterns are different aspects of Maria from across the dreamlands fusing together
This is a really well made video! I’m surprised it doesn’t have that many views. I’m really glad to see someone do a lore video on messengers - they’re some of my favourite characters in the game.
So basically the messengers are old hunters who have left the dream? the hunters leave behind a part of themselves in the dream when they wake up? Hunters like wearing top hats, messengers also do so.
The messengers seem like babies. And if they worship hunters is only natural they would like to dress up like hunters. If these messengers you see all over the game are inhabitants of the Dream, it is natural to have other ones living in the Nightmares, these happen to be attatched to these 3 monstrosities.
That's a popular point of view. But i think, as i outlined in the video, that the evidence for them being the fleeting will/spirits of dead hunters has more evidence and makes more sense logically.
Dead hunters go back to living under the morning sun. Like Djura or Eileen. Unless you mean hunters who died even in the waking world. These will only pass on with no reason to go back to the dream (not that I can remember). But most of the hunters either become beasts like Gascoigne or blood-drunk hunters and go to the Hunter's Nightmare. As the Messengers look like fetus you could say that they're unborn failed experiments of Great Ones replication from the Church. The ones in the Orphanage were succesfully born even if not ascending.
Yes, I mean hunters who pass through the dream and die in the waking world. Of course there is no explicit reason why they should return to the hunter's dream (this is a from soft game after all!). But as you say, blood drunk hunters are pulled into the hunter's nightmare by amygdala. You could say that various characters continue to exist in the nightmare's after death; Micolash in Mensis, Laurence in the Hunter's Nightmare, even Lady Maria at the top of the Cathedral. So I think its plausible to assume that hunter's who had a connection with the dream would return to it after death. The messengers being an expression of their souls.
@@Wackyo as the dlc states, the hunters nightmare is a fate that cannot be avoided , its why we both "sane" hunters like simon and brador, and arguably maria, and the blood thirsty hunters we fight throughout the hunters nightmare. So perhaps the messengers are instead the spirits of hunters in the dream, taking form upon death of the dreaming hunters , so the hunters body may "awaken new". It may be why the messngers are so loyal to hunters and why the nightmare creatures kill them , for they are the hunters in a sense. The reason they support the player may be due to the fact that they can cross worlds , and so with a stretch, coulr be the futures deaths or deaths of the player hunter in other dreams or worlds
Did you notice that the crawlers in the nightmare frontier have messengers attached to their underside? You can see them when the crawler rears up for its rapid poison attack. In fact it looks like the messengers are the ones releasing the poison gas. It reminds me of how the winter lanterns bear an unmistakable resemblance to the doll. It makes sense for the nightmare creatures to reflect symbols of birth, childhood and motherhood, since this is Mergo's nightmare, who's implied to have been stillborn.
Erm, I talk the crawlers at 2:30-2:50 and explicitly mention the messengers attached to their underside at 2:48. I even show a video clip of it! I'm a bit surprised you missed that on such a short video :-)
Lol its cool. Breakfast is important! Btw I agree with everything else you say especially regarding the similarity between the doll and the winter lanterns and the symbols of motherhood.
Is it just me or do the messangers look like deformed Pthumerians? Yes we don't see proper, healthy Pthumerians, other than Queen Yharnam, but we can get a good image based on the Pthumerians we find in the chalice dungeons, the ones that look like hollows from dark souls, and the Pthumerian descendant.
Oh I thought she was referring to something entirely different when she mentioned the will of the ancient. She makes a pause between little ones and the next line that makes me think so. In the Japanese version, blood echoes are called "will of the blood" or something along those lines, so I thought she was referring to that. Edit: dying wish of blood. That's what they're called.
Nice! Thats really good to know. If blood echoes are the dying wish of blood are we carrying around the thoughts and feeling of previous hunter's in our veins? Makes sense when you consider the Doll tells us she senses the "ancient echoes" coursing through us
So it's literally the past hunters powering us up when the doll asks for it, which they would if they truly venerate her. Is that why we don't succumb to the scourge? Because the messengers at the intro cinematic are literally got inside our blood? It would make sense that beasthood runes still work, since runes do not rely upon blood in any measure.
Paleblood hunt proven! But it looks as if no matter what, hunter's eventually return to the dream (in their blood echoes). Maybe that's how messengers appear? Once we give our blood echoes to the doll, the messengers, being the fleeting will of the hunters, are born? Continuing the theme of motherhood and rebirth.
These lore videos are worth the wait. They are always quite insightful, especially the bloodborne lore videos.
Thank you! I'm glad you're enjoying my content! Sorry I've been busy of late so the uploads have slowed down.
Lol ‘insight-ful’
I like this theory, but a large piece of the puzzle that is not addressed in this video is the Messengers' presence in Pthumeru. In the chalice dungeons, you find both statues of Messengers as well as an actual Messenger tending a blue lamp. The game states that Gherman was the first Hunter. Yet Messengers predate his existence.
Very good lore video. It's still vague, but true to the source material and summarizes everything around the messengers very well. I also like your way of thinking. Like myself, you seem to be in search of the motives of the Moon Presence, which is by definition something that is impossible for us. But it's still a quest worth investigating.
I guess, you already know this, but the Japanese name of the Winter Lanterns is "ほうすき" (or "housuki" in Romaji). As far as I understand Japanese folklore, that actually refers to Chinese winter lanterns, which in turn refers to objects, that are used once and then get carelessly thrown away. And while objects treated with good care might return as good spirits in Japanese belief, carelessly tossed objects might come back as evil demons. There are even burial ceremonies for dolls in Japan. How does that all refer to Bloodborne and our Winter Lanterns? Easy (With a bit of Yharnam blood of you own... back to topic), especially if you think about the Dolls only cut line of dialog.
I know, cut dialog is widely not considered "canon", however most of the cut lines are things that are still consistent with the game, but were simply too unnecessarily clear and got cut for the sake of narrative trust in the player. And that is true for the Dolls cut dialog.
The doll's cut line is "I must have displeased you. Go on, shut me down. Even though this vessel will remain in Your service. So have no fear. I must have displeased you." The thing about this line is, that that's how the doll is working ingame. If you're not satisfied with her, you can kill her without fear of losing her ability. For example, Speedrunners kill her, as killing her is faster than clicking through her dialog. You can still use her vessel afterward to level up. And the new vessel, which comes the next time after loading the Hunter's Dream will have no memory of you. She will say the exact same dialog, when you originally talked to her with 1 insight. Some people think, that's a bug or something, but it's actually intentional. The Doll migt be back, which is a relief for people who killed her by accident. But it's actually not the same person with her previous memories anymore. (Some Nier: Automata in Bloodborne so to say) The connection to the Winter Lanterns from there is actually quite easy. With endless numbers of past hunters (you even talked about thousands of years in your video, which might be accurate) and endless numbers of parallel worlds, there are a lot of hunters, who threw away their doll, which spawned the Winter Lanters. However, it's not as easy to tell why they are covered in Messengers. Maybe the Messengers want to hide this cruel reality from the hunter, which would drive him crazy? And the tossed doll just wants to ... hug you? and eat you... No seriously, I could totally see that being a twisted version of the doll's last dying wish. I think other than the grip, the Winter Lanterns actually don't even have any attack. Except for the passive frenzy attack, of course.
Edit: I'm just watching your "Bloodborne: A very Japanese Horror" video. And there's a lot of this in here as well.
I think that's a really interesting way to look at the doll and the winter lanterns. It's perfectly plausible that you could be right. My own perspective is slightly different. My theory is the winter lanterns are related to curses - specifically cursed dreams or nightmares. The defiled chalice description it states "Curses are caused by inciting the anger of the Great Ones, and used to hex others".
We know the dreaming realms were created by great ones. So we can think of the Nightmare of Mensis, N Frontier, Hunter's Nightmare, Fishing Village etc as cursed realms. And cursed realms produce cursed versions of the doll, which seem to be necessary artefacts of the dreams. Remember, Winter Lanterns only appear in Nightmares and are the only enemy to drop cursed blood gems, insinuating they carry a curse themselves.
Unfortunately for the messengers who travel between realms, they cant tell the difference between a doll and a WL, and end up caught and trapped.
Thank you for taking your time and answering! Yes, great point. I'm also aware of the fact, that Winter Lanterns are typically located in the nightmare areas and that they are related to curses. I'm thinking that while the doll is totally willing to give her "live" blindly for whatever pity reason the hunter has to rid her, a curse still occurs. I have no idea, how exactly that happens or why the Winter Lanters end up in the nightmare realms. I just think, that the Hunter's Dream is connected to the Nightmares and that connection lets them end up there. But I have too little information for that.
@@CycloneFox great insight on the Winter Lanterns! I think they are natives of the Nightmares, that came into being from pieces of each aspect of Maria from different Nightmares interconnecting which is shown in several ways.
There's the fact you can visibly see one nightmare realm from the other and that you could travel from one to another as shown by the snail women that falls from the hamlet into the Hunters Nightmare. There's also the Wandering Nightmare enemy that can vanish, presumably traveling into the dreamlands.
The School of Mensis was trying to revive Kos (Micolash says the School was praying to it for eyes) into the One Reborn which ties together the Nightmare of Mensis and Hamlet. The research done in the Research Hall was based on Kos, and the Nightmare of Mensis was made to revive Kos and be granted eyes like Rom so it seems like the the Brain of Mensis was derived from the Research Hall. The goal of the Research Hall was too grow eyes on the inside and the Brain of Mensis seems to be the pinnacle of that research.
Winter Lanterns are the only enemy, other than Wandering Nightmares, that are in all the Nightmares and are never found in the waking world. Also, the Doll, Brain of Mensis, and the Lanterns all respond to the Make Contact gesture. Also, at the top of each Archtree in the Hunters Dream there is presumably another Doll so that could be the source of the bodies for the Lanterns as dialogue from the original N. American version implies the doll dies and a new one takes its place. When Hunters die they go to the Hunters Nightmare so possibly when dolls die they go to a Nightmare as well which is when they come into contact with Enlarged Heads that attach to them. The Doll says she feels better when Maria is killed and when you give her Maria's hair ornament so she may feel happy about being joined with an Enlarged Head.
TLDR; Lanterns are different aspects of Maria from across the dreamlands fusing together
This is a really well made video! I’m surprised it doesn’t have that many views. I’m really glad to see someone do a lore video on messengers - they’re some of my favourite characters in the game.
Glad you liked it!
Love the scenery, and the background music fits really well. Your voice is soothing, you sound like a scholar. Great video!
Arguably, the scariest creatures in the game, especially in their introduction, and they're completely harmless.
Number 7. And holy shit Bloodbornre videos even after 3 years. Well done.
Thanks! Glad you enjoyed it!
So basically the messengers are old hunters who have left the dream? the hunters leave behind a part of themselves in the dream when they wake up? Hunters like wearing top hats, messengers also do so.
The messengers seem like babies. And if they worship hunters is only natural they would like to dress up like hunters.
If these messengers you see all over the game are inhabitants of the Dream, it is natural to have other ones living in the Nightmares, these happen to be attatched to these 3 monstrosities.
That's a popular point of view. But i think, as i outlined in the video, that the evidence for them being the fleeting will/spirits of dead hunters has more evidence and makes more sense logically.
Dead hunters go back to living under the morning sun. Like Djura or Eileen. Unless you mean hunters who died even in the waking world. These will only pass on with no reason to go back to the dream (not that I can remember). But most of the hunters either become beasts like Gascoigne or blood-drunk hunters and go to the Hunter's Nightmare.
As the Messengers look like fetus you could say that they're unborn failed experiments of Great Ones replication from the Church. The ones in the Orphanage were succesfully born even if not ascending.
Yes, I mean hunters who pass through the dream and die in the waking world. Of course there is no explicit reason why they should return to the hunter's dream (this is a from soft game after all!). But as you say, blood drunk hunters are pulled into the hunter's nightmare by amygdala. You could say that various characters continue to exist in the nightmare's after death; Micolash in Mensis, Laurence in the Hunter's Nightmare, even Lady Maria at the top of the Cathedral. So I think its plausible to assume that hunter's who had a connection with the dream would return to it after death. The messengers being an expression of their souls.
@@Wackyo as the dlc states, the hunters nightmare is a fate that cannot be avoided , its why we both "sane" hunters like simon and brador, and arguably maria, and the blood thirsty hunters we fight throughout the hunters nightmare. So perhaps the messengers are instead the spirits of hunters in the dream, taking form upon death of the dreaming hunters , so the hunters body may "awaken new". It may be why the messngers are so loyal to hunters and why the nightmare creatures kill them , for they are the hunters in a sense. The reason they support the player may be due to the fact that they can cross worlds , and so with a stretch, coulr be the futures deaths or deaths of the player hunter in other dreams or worlds
Whatever the fuck: ima always ready for bloodborne lore.
Can't get too much of that sweet sweet lore!
Did you notice that the crawlers in the nightmare frontier have messengers attached to their underside? You can see them when the crawler rears up for its rapid poison attack. In fact it looks like the messengers are the ones releasing the poison gas. It reminds me of how the winter lanterns bear an unmistakable resemblance to the doll. It makes sense for the nightmare creatures to reflect symbols of birth, childhood and motherhood, since this is Mergo's nightmare, who's implied to have been stillborn.
Erm, I talk the crawlers at 2:30-2:50 and explicitly mention the messengers attached to their underside at 2:48. I even show a video clip of it! I'm a bit surprised you missed that on such a short video :-)
Lmao my bad bro! I was listening while making breakfast, I musta been more distracted than I thought.
Lol its cool. Breakfast is important! Btw I agree with everything else you say especially regarding the similarity between the doll and the winter lanterns and the symbols of motherhood.
Great video bro, I was wondering how you record stuff without the player model being in the way
Have you ever wondered what Gehrman eats? Messenger hotdogs.
Is it just me or do the messangers look like deformed Pthumerians?
Yes we don't see proper, healthy Pthumerians, other than Queen Yharnam, but we can get a good image based on the Pthumerians we find in the chalice dungeons, the ones that look like hollows from dark souls, and the Pthumerian descendant.
They are either anorexic or obese it seems, never in the middle.
They remind me of those machine elves you see upon taking DMT
Oh I thought she was referring to something entirely different when she mentioned the will of the ancient. She makes a pause between little ones and the next line that makes me think so.
In the Japanese version, blood echoes are called "will of the blood" or something along those lines, so I thought she was referring to that.
Edit: dying wish of blood. That's what they're called.
Nice! Thats really good to know. If blood echoes are the dying wish of blood are we carrying around the thoughts and feeling of previous hunter's in our veins? Makes sense when you consider the Doll tells us she senses the "ancient echoes" coursing through us
So it's literally the past hunters powering us up when the doll asks for it, which they would if they truly venerate her. Is that why we don't succumb to the scourge? Because the messengers at the intro cinematic are literally got inside our blood? It would make sense that beasthood runes still work, since runes do not rely upon blood in any measure.
Now that I'm thinking about it... If the messengers are pale, and they are im our blood... Does that make them paleblood?
Paleblood hunt proven! But it looks as if no matter what, hunter's eventually return to the dream (in their blood echoes). Maybe that's how messengers appear? Once we give our blood echoes to the doll, the messengers, being the fleeting will of the hunters, are born? Continuing the theme of motherhood and rebirth.
Now I'm curious as to what the messengers in the fountain do with your blood echoes when you buy stuff.
They remind me of the Kodamas in Princess Mononoke
Very nice theory.
Nice video. Thank you
They are so cute
Yet strangely, familiar?
After all that flowery language and still not many answers.
Reminds me of Berserk