Does the correct pronunciation have any real meaning? However, no one benefits from it in any way, because as far as I know, not a single person speaks it as a native language nowadays. Besides, in the history of Christian churches, there are many more incredible things, such as the fact that priests preached in "Latin" to people who did not know Latin - and the icing on the cake was that most priests did not know Latin either - they just blurted out something that sounded like it. Why? Because the underlings of the adversary of our Creator, a group of church fathers who distorted the teachings of the Bible had decided that the pure Christianity of the Bible was not profitable enough. So in their opinion, it was better to modify the Christian doctrine according to the mind of people and less according to the mind of God. Jesus spoke the truth in Matthew 7:13-14, but fake Christianity turned the broad way into right and the narrow way into wrong. So they had rejected the truth and turned to fables - - or as the apostle Paul put it in 2 Timothy 4:3-4. Do you remember? For Jesus, uneducated men who were ordinary people were suitable as apostles, and the teaching was always free. It's different today, when fake Christianity has become big business, where teachers get paid to lie to their sheep. In church services, money is collected visibly so that no one dares not to give money because others are watching. In some cases, the church receives its income as a mandatory part of employee and business taxation. Instead, Jesus taught to do good in his own way without pay Matthew 10:8. Remember 2. Thessalonians 2. chapter...
When I originally learned Greek in Bible school, I was taught the Erasmian pronunciation. At that time I stumbled upon a book in the school's library on the reconstructed classical pronunciation of Greek. I became fascinated with this pronunciation and studied it. At the time, I was also taking a course in linguistics and phonetics, which made it easier to understand the book about classical Greek pronunciation. I came to favor the classical pronunciation for several reasons. Probably the most important one was that with the classical pronunciation, it made remembering the correct spelling of Greek words easier. Another reason I favor the classical pronunciation is that I just like the sound of it. It has a rhythmical quality that other pronunciations lack. Much later in my life I also learned the modern pronunciation when I decided to try to learn some modern Greek. I do not like using the modern pronunciation when reading the NT because there are too many sounds that have become alike that make spelling more confusing. I have continued to this day reading the NT with the classical pronunciation. I often read passages aloud because I love the sound of it. I realize that the classical pronunciation was not generally spoken in the NT period, but I have read that there was an intellectual movement during that time that attempted to revive the classical pronunciation. Personally, I believe that Paul was likely at least familiar with that pronunciation. Over the years, as I have read various passages of Paul's writing using the classical pronunciation, I have discovered various portions where it seems that Paul's choice of words and word order were influence by the sound of the passage in classical Greek, as when read aloud with the Classical pronunciation, the passage sounds like poetry with rhythmic qualities that are not apparent with other pronunciations. One of those passages is Romans 3:10-19 (verse 19 is particularly striking). Another passage is Ephesians 4:20-24. Also I find this in most of Romans 8. There are also a few passages in the writings of John that show this same poetic lyrical quality, notably the first few verses of 1 John 1 and 1 John 2:12-14. This has been a very interesting discovery. I have never come across anyone else who has learned the classical pronunciation and uses it to read the NT, and consequently, I have never come across anyone who has mentioned the lyrical/poetic quality of portions of the New Testament. As far as the importance of which pronunciation, I don't really think it matters that much. But I just wanted to tell my own experience, for what it's worth.
@@pierceh.5670 A great deal of linguistic research has been done on both the classical pronunciation and the 1st and 2nd century pronunciation. I have a series of audio recordings by a linguistics professor who has done extensive research on classical pronunciation. I have used that information for my own pronunciation. There are some interesting passages in Paul's writings and John's writings, which when read with the classical, reveal poetic rhythm that is not noticeable using the usual American pronunciation of Erasmus' made-up pronunciation. Also, using classical pronunciation helps with spelling of NT Greek words.
You re damn right about that .... native Greek speaker here and even i when i happen to hear some kind of literature pronounced with the Erasmian pronunciation , its seems that i m hearing a totally foreign language not just a very old , ancient version of mine . Lucius pronantiation style although yes its not like modern Greek , sounds way better and with a proper flow in a native person's ears .
Erasmus was tough Greek by a Greek, with the accent of the Greeks at the time. He however wanted to create a prediction of how Classical Greek sounded like. But, we can’t really see his pronunciation as an accurate interpretation of the accent of classical Greece, since no one actually knew how it sounded like.
My takeaways on choosing which pronunciation to choose: 1. What is your purpose of learning Greek? 2. This should not cause to delay learning Greek. 3. There are more important things in learning Greek than pronunciation (as important it may be).
Regarding 2.: Yes, learning the pronunciation of Koine Greek takes a bit of time, but really that much? I learned English from non-native speakers of the English language at school. Some of them did some pronunciation mistakes and although now I had heard the correct pronunciation several times, I sometimes inadvertently revert to the incorrect pronunciation that I learned at school. So I think it's easier to learn the correct pronunciation from the start instead of getting used to an incorrect pronunciation. I have to say that pronunciation is not the biggest struggle for me and that pronunciations of languages is part of what fascinates me of languages. And in the case of Koine greek, I'm also interested in how Koine native speakers pronounced it.
I certainly do not intend to offend anyone with my comment. After listening to Philemon Zachariou regarding the proper pronunciation of Greek. I agree that the Erasmian system is held up largely because of tradition and many excuses. Although, I do think it makes sense that we see many different versions of the English language. And it all seems to come down to one's own personal taste. As long as it is understandable to the listener. Although, I find that Erasmian system hideous altogether. To me it always sounds like an american trying to speak a foreign language. A spanish speaker makes it sound more authentic and beautiful. The same would probably be true of many other non-english languages. Learning the modern Greek version of Koine makes sense because it accommodates a living language. And also sounds beautiful. I personally see the present day Erasmian approach as a counterfeit, and very unlike what Erasmian began as. I apologize if have come to misunderstand the information. But I have had a deep look at many of the Greek grammars. And its just a personal view of mine that one should create a foundation on whatever they plan to stick to. Not on what is easiest. When you build a house, do you take the easiest approach? Many modern builders do. And that's why the old houses lasted longer.
I want to comment that the monasteries in Greece use the modern pronunciation for hundreds of years and hundreds of years before Erasmus and they have manuals of the way to sing the New Testament as I personally encountered in places like Mount Athos for example.. They have there manuals that date back to 10th century... Of course you have a big gap between 1st century and 10th century but I would like to believe that these monastic communities keep a very strict traditional continuity of their heritage
@@bma Maybe the Erasmian pronunciation applies more to ancient Greek than Koine.. But I am not an expert of course.. Your work is great.. But I find Koine Greek a very difficult language... The words are very long and very difficult to pronounce both with the Erasmian or the contemporary one. But can I ask you something?You believe that our Lord was preaching in Greek also? In John's 12:20-23 says that Jesus spoke to some Greeks that they were interested to meet Him.
Yes. There is good evidence that Erasmian pronunciation is consistent with Classical Greek. And, yes, scholars generally hold that Jesus spoke Aramaic, Hebrew and Greek and that His Aramaic and Greek may have been stronger than his Hebrew! Thanks for watching and your comments!
My main issue is, why continue to teach Erasmian pronunciation when we know it's wrong for Koine Greek? I'm not being a purist here; it just seems silly to persist in this now that we know better. Koine and modern pronunciation are not hugely different, so I don't care a whole lot about which is taught between those two. Erasmian just seems like you're trying to shoehorn English phonology into the Greek alphabet, and if you're going to do that, why not just transcribe everything into the Roman alphabet and be done with it?
Thanks for the question! I think it is fair. I certainly understand where the question comes from. Here's my quick response: Erasiman does have the advantage of providing different sounds for each letter and it distinguishes the rough breathing from the smooth, which them maps well with what students already know of Greek words (e.g. hydro, hyper, etc). So, it really comes down to pedagogy vs authenticity/purity. I've been tempted to switch but the pedagogy keeps me teaching and therefore using Erasmian.
They are very different in pronunciation and Textual Criticism of the LXX and New Testament have many thousands of spelling errors clearly caused by less educated, in Greek, scribes. The same spelling errors are found as far back to 403 B.C. concerning interchangeable vowels when their alphabet was made official. It is the same with potsherd inscriptions. One should learn the correct pronunciation just as one would in any language. Try making your argument with a native Greek, Christian, Linguist of Greek and English with Dr. Philemon Zachariou, or C.C. Caragounis.
@@Rightlydividing-wx1xb Very good points. I can not imagine reading κοινή with the Erasmian pronunciation, which is not only inaccurate, it is also ugly. The greek speaking churches throughout the eons have used and adapted the pronunciation to what is the case today. Why are the Erasmians so dead set to be using a totally made up pronunciation? They deprive their students of the beauty of the language, and the Hellenic scholarship on the Christian bible.
I just started learning Koine Greek with the Biblical Mastery Academy. I had concerns about pronunciation as soon as I learned there were different methods. But as I watched this video, it occurred to me that Darryl "mispronounces" most of his vowels, yet I can still understand him. 😄 In one of the first videos I watched of Darryl, he repeatedly talked about the "tense" of a word. I had no idea what he was talking about until about the 6th time he used the word. I'm sure Darryl believes he is correctly pronouncing vowels just as sure as I am correctly pronouncing vowels. This has helped put Koine Greek pronunciation in perspective for me. Thanks Darryl!
I prefer the Modern Greek way that Greeks use today. This is mainly because that's how I started learning Greek, and it sounds more fluid than the Erasmian way.
I don't get what is the problem with you!! You don't realize that from the moment the Bible was written, it has been read out loud everywhere in the eastern roman and later on the byzantine empire. It's part of the divine liturgy. And the language for divine liturgy is greek. It's a tradition that passed on from generation to generation. And the way it is chanted, the way we sing, we recite, is a mnemonic way to chant all over the Greek-speaking world. Despite the fact that there are different accents everywhere, you don't notice any difference if you enter a greek church. Divine liturgy in koine greek has never been stopped, NEVER. You don't have to reinvent something that has been always PRESENT! You know that there are scripts from the 6th century for chanting in greek which are still in use today regularly.
Hi Elias! Perhaps the "problem" with me is that I'm not a native Greek, nor a Greek orthodox! However, I'm not commenting here on what has taken place in the Greek speaking church, though this is helpful. Instead, I'm commenting as a non-european westerner on internal discussions between those who teach and learn koine Greek as a second or third language. Thanks for your comments!
@@bma Hi! My intensions were not this messege to sound offensive. But I want to point out in my opinion that the matter must be less complicated than you discribe it. The koine greek was a form of classical greek simplified up to a point that not native greek speakers could communicate with others from different backrounds and ethnicities throughout eastern roman empire. Keep up with your great job.
Thanks for the clarification. Did you see my video on What is Koine Greek? I addressed the history of the language a bit there. Thank you for watching!
45 years ago in college, I learned the Erasmian system. I was told at the time that even though we knew it was significantly different from actual first-century pronunciation, it didn't really matter, because we weren't trying to speak the language--nobody did, we were told--but merely to translate it. Within the past several years I've been exposed to the reconstructed system, which I have been trying to switch to. Although it is unlikely that I will ever be in a community of speakers of Koine Greek (or even modern Greek), I still tend to think it is a worthwhile effort for me because I want to improve my ability to read Greek, rather than just translate it. I believe that the better my understanding is of all facets of the language, the better that I will be able to read it with fluency. Isn't that true of all language learning? I have struggled some with switching from Erasmian to reconstructed pronunciation. In an earlier comment, Neil Ellson points out that dialects and accents existed in the first century, as well as in modern English. People learn to use different accents all the time, so there's no reason that I can't learn a second "accent" of Koine Greek.
Thanks for your thoughtful comment, Earl! I agree that anything you can do to improve your knowledge of the language will be helpful, especially once you're through the beginning Greek stage. Blessings!
I speak French, and I see that modern Greek pronunciation allows me to guess the meaning of Greek words often because a good number of French words with Greek origin are orthographed and pronounced based on modern Greek pronunciation.
I have no place to say right or wrong either way, but I would buy tickets to get a mix of Australian, American, and British folks in a room to argue why it’s not folly to insist on pronouncing an ancient language correctly.
In Greece, depending on where you live, there are different accents just as there are in the US. But as a Greek speaker, the pronunciation taught in the West sounds outright goofy. There's no way the κοίνε (koine) would have sounded that way. (Btw, koine should be pronounced kEE'-neh) No doubt the pronunciation was different 2000 years ago but it would be nothing like what's being taught in English universities. To get a much better idea of what the pronunciation would have sounded like, go to the Anton Tasos channel and you can slow the Bible videos down to 50%. He is speaking what he is reading perfectly.
I learned Erasmian in high school and modern for Koine. I like the modern Greek much better. It actually sounds to me like a language rather than a code.And it flows.
One thing I like about MNTG is that Darryl has his own views about things but he keeps the program flexible enough to allow people with different views to operate within the program without feeling pressure to conform. I’m switching to Modern but I try to use Erasmian when interacting with others in the group. BUT I still trip up pronouncing Greek words. Not discouraged though...I get tripped up pronouncing some English words too lol 😂
I agree that it’s not actually a big issue. Interesting? Yes, but I think our focus as Christians for learning Greek should be to use it to draw others to Christ first and foremost. I don’t think researching this topic isn’t important, it’s just not at the top of our priority list. My professor in college taught the Erasmian pronunciation, but during my second year in Greek, he told us he thought the modern pronunciation was closer to correct (though likely not entirely the same as you pointed out.) After he explained his reasoning and presented evidence, I chose to re-learn it in the modern pronunciation. It wasn’t too hard and you’re right! Now I understand and can learn from teachers who use either pronunciation. Thanks for this video. To be honest I think I had the tendency to get a little haughty, thinking I was so correct in choosing the modern pronunciation, which is not a good attitude to have toward anybody, but especially brothers and sisters in Christ.
Well, the pronunciation of the language any text is written in is very relevant to whatever puns that text may contain. And Greeks and Romans certainly were inordinately fond of their puns. Something to consider.
When people go about trying to teach Ancient Greek (Attic or Koine) as a living language, most don’t use Modern Greek pronunciation. One Greek professor (who is himself Greek) referenced an Ancient Greek play saying “Sheep say ‘beh, beh’; not ‘vee, vee’”. (You have to imagine that said with a thick Greek accent!) So it becomes important for places like the Conversational Koine Institute, The Polis Institute, Polymathy, Randal Buth’s Institute and those wonderful young people on Trios-Trivium who speak fluent Attic Greek to be able to speak with each other. There are about 20,000 fluent Latin speakers in the world who go to conferences, symposia, etc. Ancient Greek speakers should catch up!
Dear friend, about the "Sheep say ‘beh, beh’; not ‘vee, vee’”, i have to tell you that the word for sheep in classical times used to be" ΟΙΣ" no "ΠΡΟΒΑΤΟΝ" like today, which comes from "ΠΡΟΒΑΙΝΩ" means i walk in front of others, second it was actually a comedy means to make people lough and is a very usual joke even today in Greek, (using different sounds for different animals), so it's not very good example to prove anything. Still is quite odd for someone to believe that in ancient Greek there was not a letter for the sound of the English "v", "y" (as in yesterday) or "th" (as in they) and for the letter "Γ" I could find it weird to have 3 different ways to pronounce the English "g", like Γ,ΓΓ,ΓΚ and not one for the "y" (as in yet) A little late comment but anyway, have a nice day!
@@kalliaspapaioannou7045 Me: “DO YOU UNDERSTAND THE WORDS THAT’RE COMMIIN’ OUTTA MY MOUTH?” St. Paul: “Man, ain’t nobody unnastan’ the words that’re commin’ outta your mouth!” 😂 😂 😂
I favor modern because my long term goal is fluency and being able to converse with modern Greek speakers is a great help towards that. I do find the Erasmian pronunciation to be easier to discern and more pleasing to the ears but modern pronunciation better serves my current goals.
@@GorgeousGeorge97 Γειά σου τωρά 😅. I'm honestly not sure 5 months later why I said pleasing to the ears for erasmian when no one uses it to speak, sing, or make poetry. Not my best wording.
I married a Greek and spent time in Greece, where I was told by some that Greeks were offended by foreigners' attempts to reconstruct ancient pronunciations as if Greek were not a living language. Whether this is true or not, I did find it was much easier to switch to modern pronunciation. Trying to keep track of two different pronunciation systems as I learned both Koine and modern Greek was just too difficult.
Here’s an interesting link that addresses this question: ruclips.net/video/Dt9z5Gvp3MM/видео.html Another catch is that Koine Greek uses pitch accentuation whereas Modern Greek uses stress. That’s not so difficult if you’ve learned a tonal language. Lastly, whichever pronunciation you use, for the love of all that’s good and holy, speak with a Greek accent!! Speaking Greek with an English or American accent (regardless of pronunciation) is just painful to listen to!
I’m thankful I learned historic pronunciation rather than Erasmian. Not that those who learn Erasmian are any less proficient in their exegesis, but we know 100% that Erasmian is not how the language was pronounced. To what degree historic represents the real koine pronunciation is unknown, though it’s probably closer than modern and certainly more than Erasmian. In the end, it doesn’t make a big difference, but I genuinely prefer the historic system.
I prefer to use the modern pronunciation, because it helps when learning modern greek. Learning "reconstructed" pronunciation and modern pronunciation is a wast if time. Besides, native greeks use modern pronunciation when they read NT text in koine.
I like the idea of aiming to use the pronunciation used at the time Jesus and Paul would have been hearing and using Greek. I understand there are regional variations, but at the end of the day, I like the idea of being able to detect any rhyme and rhythm that would only be detectable if we try to use the same pronunciation. Dr Randall Buth is also just a very cool and knowledgeable guy, so I love to use the resources from his website.
There has been some recent work done by Philemon Zachariou. He argues that the Erasmian pronunciation has had an impact on scholarship which I find interesting. After knowing all the facts, it really does seem like a personal choice based on one's priorities. The idea you brought up about looking at the scribal errors has a lot of merit to it. Thanks for bringing that up.
I think an appropriate analogy is the difference between sanskrit chanting mantra and prayer. Sanskrits “power” is in the sound, and the chants are meant to be heard simply according to precise pronunciation, meter, and intonation. However prayer focused on meaning and establishing a personal relationship with the lord in supplication. So koine Greek pronunciation at least for spiritual purpose is not essential at all, because the specific sound is not the bud of prayer’s power
How did they worship in the book of Acts? Today some people are worshipping in silent adoration while others are jumping up and down waving their arms. Which is the correct way? Does it matter? All of them are doing it for the glory of God. As mature Christians we should be able to accept the other group unconditionally even if we prefer a different way - especially if we have a very strong conviction that we are right (God opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble). The same with the greek pronunciation. I like to wave my arms when I worship but I do not jump up and down. What do you think Darryl, is that like the reconstructed greek pronunciation? Thanks again for all your videos, I love watching them! Blessings, Christo
Thanks so much for your thoughtful comment! I think one distinction I would make is that worship is much more theological than pronunciation, so in that sense there is a disconnect. The problem is that some people make pronunciation into a divisive issue like it is theological.
I've just finished Philemon Zachariou's book and would encourage anyone interested in this topic to at least view his summary video: ruclips.net/video/wYtrVlpnpg4/видео.html For me personally I have been a student of Greek (Νεοελληνικά) for some time and use that HGP for Κοινή. As another commenter below stated, since we know Erasmian is wrong, why do we still use it? It's synthetic and nobody EVER spoke like that.
I am just a beginner but i have found very confusing how to pronounce the alphabates correctly because American teacher e.g say bayda zayda, a teacher from Greek pronuncate differently someone from UK will pronuncate differently. This is real struggle when someone's local accent or pronuncation kicks in instead of teaching or using the way it should be pronounced. Need help.
The erasmian pronunciation is simply unbearable to Greek ears. Wrong too if you ask me, a "latinized" version on ancient Greek. Let's hope our foreign friends will stop using it at some point in the future.
Will they debate the pronunciation of 20th/21st century English in 2000 years time as they read history books and primary sources of our lives and times, about the World wars, the Cold War, the war on Terror and the Covid pandemic. Let’s get a Scott, an Australian, a Canadian, a southerner from the USA, a South African, an Indian, an Irishman, a New Zealander and Jamaican in room together, all countries with large numbers of native English speakers. Then see if we can even get two of them to agree on what is the correct pronunciation. I am sure it would have been the same back in the 1st Century with Greek.
A fundamental mistake both camps do is that they assume that there is one modern Greek pronunciation. There is Athenian pronunciation, Thessalonicean pronunciation, Cretan pronunciation, Cypriot pronunciation, Pontic pronunciation, Griko pronunciation (in southern Italy) and more. Saying that there is one correct is calling the others incorrect.
Although I applaud you for choosing the Modern Greek pronunciation, I think you should learn it simply for yourself and your own goals, not to avoid ridicule. Greeks generally don't mock and tease foreigners trying to learn their language, anyway. Erasmian/Reconstructed pronunciations just sound cringey or even ugly to Greeks, so they tend to have an involuntary recoil reaction when someone deviates from the Greek phonology they know. This is understandable, of course. Italians may experience a similar response when hearing reconstructed classical Latin pronunciation, as opposed to the Ecclesiastical one.
Yes practically there is no problem in how you pronounce Greek.You could speak them as an Arian or with a British accent or even you could not speak (or should I say spe-a-k ?)them at all and you would be o.k. But two things: 1)How would you like to here the word easy as e-a-s-a-i ? Or "would" as o-u-l-d ? Even more : the word "greek" as gre-e-k ? Mmmm ? 2) We are all certain that the lunguages evolve.True. But what about a lunguage evolving at some period and then later on , going back to a previous form before the period of the evolution? Greek has evolved during the years , but in a totally different way that Erasmus stated.
I have studied through Polis Institute in Jerusalem for years the Erasmian pronunciation. Some from seminaries butcher that pronunciation that makes it not sound authentic at all, no disrespect just being real... but this Erasmian pronunciation sounds quite nice. When I went to Jerusalem for 2 years and studied the language and the morphology, the rough breathing of consonants and the vowels, it just MAKES SENSE. The morphology applies to vowels, diphthongs but also consonants. For example, when we consider the three families for consonants: labials, dentals and palatals, how they morph and why based on adjacent letters, e.g. the stem connecting to the endings etc, and the morphological changes that takes place... the whole system is better explained by consider the pronunciation of the Erasmian, particularly by not throwing out the rough breathing. Having said all of that, I don't think the pronunciation goal should be to BE LIKE AN ANCIENT GREEK but rather the goal is to read and understand the text. So being able to converse with others helps internalize any languages which yields understanding. So speak it like those you have in your circles so that you can internalize the language, whatever pronunication that might be.
This is an old video but I have a question... Knowing that there chants and hymns in the Greek Orthodox liturgy that are coming from the Byzantine times and still are used today and the pronunciation is the same, the modern one, isn't it a good statement about the pronunciation of the last at least 1.500 years? Knowing also that these people were so much closer to the classical times than us or even Erasmus doesn't say anything about what was going on back then. And if Erasmus is right when that changed?
At highschool, before we even had any contact with ancient texts, we dealt with some significant features of the various ancient Greek dialects (Mycenaean, Aeolic, Doric, Ionic, etc.). The Ancient Greek texts that are taught and studied in the universities and faculties are written in the Attic Dialect, so instead of "Ancient Greek" it's more accurate to say "Attic Dialect" and Hellenistic or Koiné (κοινή = common, public) depending on the period. Some of the phonetical changes had already occurred to some dialects even before the Hellenistic era.
I think pronunciation is very important. I don't think there's an always right pronunciation, though there are certainly wrong pronunciations. It makes a difference in how we approach manuscripts (ὑμεῖς and ἡμεῖς being blunt examples), how we catch wordplay (ἐλέος and ἐλαιον), and the like. Being picky about pronunciation when learning it can also help pick up the language better. Ancient poetry was virtually entirely aureal, so if we read that, we need to pay attention to some historical pronunciation. It's not entirely true it's no trouble to learn another pronunciation, though. If you didn't learn vowel length, then learning an accurate pronunciation from antiquity is extremely difficult, because the morae are difficult to insert if you don't learn them as you go. So if someone will want to learn to read ancient poetry or eventually move to a classical pronunciation, not focusing on it early is actually a road block. There are more profitable things in the beginning and students shouldn't get to pick but rather rely on their teachers. I agree with that, but pronunciation matters a lot and shouldn't be downplayed. It also matters in what circles you walk in. For example, if you're going to interact with modern Greeks, they're very picky partly because westerners have a somewhat colonial attitude to the language. In Orthodox Churches, only the demotic pronunciation is acceptable very similar to how you need ecclesiastical Latin in Roman Catholic churches.
Thank you for this video. For me I think pronunciation often affects accents, which can affect verb cases and understanding. Some differences with modern pronunciation vs older can create a few difficulties at times with spellings and cases due to accents that are dropped, changed, or eleded. That may be more of a mental gear shift if too much emphasis is placed on speaking vs reading, and comprehension can be attained either way. But I can't read text without hearing it in my head in some fashion. Even to use English as an example, if I read the KJV or even Beowulf or some older version of English, it's much easier to read if I apply the rhythms and accents of the text's time period than to try to read it with a modern English tones, especially if I'm trying to comprehend as well as read, not to mention memorization issues. Putting the wrong em-PHAS-is on the wrong syl-LAB-le, so to speak, lol. On the other hand, the topic can certainly be taken too far and put the focus on the wrong thing. Comprehension is really the goal. Blessings!
Thanks for your comment! Yes, accents are the clue to pronouncing the words though, not the method of pronunciation you'd employ to actually pronounce the word. Having said that, there may be times when the rhythm lends itself more to one form of pronunciation than another. Thanks again!
Nice video, thanks. I think pick your weapon and stick with it. Consistency for yourself is more important than which pronunciation you choose. Part of me thinks it would be good to go with reconstructed as the most likely to be accurate but I’ve spent so long hearing Erasmian in my head I don’t want to change now. Listening to how we all manage to speak English in our own wonderful way, I think the topic is moot. If we all try to follow the same pronunciation pattern it will inevitably sound different anyway, as would Greek back in New Testament time depending on where you were from. Jesus’ main disciples were easily marked as Galilean from their accents, whether they spoke Aramaic of Greek.
That's an inciteful perspective Neil--thanks! I have been thinking about the pronunciation issue for several years, but it had not occurred to me that there were variations at that time. And even in English today we have many dialects and accents, and yet manage to communicate fairly easily most of the time.
There’s no one who speaks it, so you don’t really need it. (although it might give you nuances on certain rhymes or wordplays in the New Testament, perhaps) It’s a blessing to know that in the new heaven and earth, there will be no language barriers, or even misunderstandings, and we will all understand, and we will know even as we are known. Amen. Maranatha.
Hmm. Now I'm confused. I was told by John D. Schwandt that proper stressing of Greek is important not only b/c it can be distracting but primarily because improper stressing can confuse verb tense and noun case. At this point in my Greek learning journey, I don't understand how that could be...
Do native English speakers read Shakespeare with a "reconstructed" pronunciation? NO. Do English learners read Shakespeare with a "reconstructed" pronunciation? NO. Does every English speaker (weather from the UK, Australia, US etc.) read Shakespeare with their own accent? YES! WHY? Because it is THE SAME language, just a different time period of the English language. It's the same thing with Greek (whether Classical, Hellenistic, Koine, Byzantine, Modern and so forth). It's the same language that has a much longer life span than English. Languages are meant to be spoken, even if it's just for reading. Reconstructing the pronunciation of an x, y, z time period, complicates matters in an unnecessary way. Koine Greek is still used today in ALL services and Bible readings in the Greek Orthodox Church. Greek Orthodox people study Holy Scriptures from the original. It is pronounced the same as Modern Greek. No one understands Erasmian pronunciation or even acknowledges it for that matter. Even if the Classical Greek pronunciation was indeed similar to the Erasmian one, the time of the Koine was so many years later, that it would definitely have changed. So, again, it is pointless to insist on it.
Historical linguistics demonstrates that pronunciation changes are a common feature found in all languages (where evidence exists). But remember for something like Koine Greek, a language spoken widely, there would have been many variants at each period in time. Imagining that one pronunciation was definitively used throughout the regions is contrary to our experience of language. Variations are part of the reason for spelling variants. Even so, reasonable general knowledge about pronunciations can be gained by historical comparative studies. Because of these things it is unreasonable to be overly dogmatic about exact pronunciations in each and every case. Find a quality reconstruction and use it to help learn and enjoy a historical state of a language.
At my seminary, we are utilizing reconstructed koine. I wonder if there is a trend in the field as far as more or less schools teaching Erasmian pronunciation
Pronunciation from place to place in Greece is different the koine I'm talking about for example athenians Pronunciation is different than Central Greece
It's sad to see that there are sometimes quite heated disagreements on this topic. It seems to me that there are legitimate arguments both for and against all approaches - Modern Greek, reconstructed Koine, and Erasmian. For me it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to think of any one way as being "the correct way". The attempts to reconstruct Koine pronunciation from near the New Testament time are extremely interesting. But there are still things that we don't (and can't) know. Were there significant differences in pronunciation according to a person's social class or education? After all, this is true of many modern societies. Who should we seek to imitate - the elite scholar or the regular man/woman in the market place? Were a lot of people in Judea highly fluent in Koine _yet as a second language_ - in the same way that a lot of people in modern-day Israel are highly fluent in English as a second language? What implications would that have had for their pronunciation? And should we seek to imitate it? Even as regards native Koine speakers, we have to wonder whether there were significant regional variations? Did a speaker of Koine in Sicily or Syria have the same accent as one in Alexandria...? Again, the variations of pronunciation in modern languages such as Spanish, English or Portuguese must raise doubt whether Koine pronunciation would have been highly uniform? Inasmuch as there were regional differences, then which one would be "correct"...? There are just too many unknowns and uncertainties. So IMHO people should just do whatever works best _for them._
The TV show "Ask This Old House" features the show hosts traveling around the USA to people's homes to help them with repairs and home improvement projects. In one memorable episode the host and homeowner were about to dig a hole and the host said to put the dirt on the "top". The homeowner promptly took a shovel full of dirt an dumped it on top of the grass. The host asked why she didn't put the dirt on the "top" and the homeowner replied that she had. "No" the host says while pointing at a tarp spread out nearby on the ground, " On the top". Call it an accent if you like, but that same host pronounces "car" as "cah" and so on. I cringe to think what scholars 1000 years from now will recreate as the English pronunciation of the 21st century. The advantage of learning modern Greek is that you have other aids to help you learn the language outside of a grammar book and seminary. But you also quickly learn that the pronunciation being taught is that of the people of Athens. So the idea that pronunciation of Greek has changed over the years and that multiple pronunciations would exist at the same time seems natural to me. It was an easy choice for me as I have not been to seminary and probably never will so the scale tips more in the direction of a modern pronunciation. It is no more "wrong" or "correct" than any other pronunciation, but it is easy for me to forget that Erasmian pronunciation makes more sense for some people and I'm sure the opposite applies as well.
Although I am an Orthodox Christian, I favor the Erasmian pronunciation. The modern Greek pronunciation used by the Greek Orthodox Church in its liturgy, has just too many homonyms that render certain passages of the New Testament absolutely incomprehensible if read aloud, particularly I Corinthians 4:10-11. As a language pragmatist (I speak and have taught four modern foreign languages), I believe that it is indispensable to vocalize the language one is learning. Therefore, it is indispensable to settle on one pronunciation system. The Erasmian pronunciation closely follows the spelling of koine Greek; therefore it makes it easier to memorize koine Greek vocabulary and grammar, if a non-Greek speaker is learning koine Greek. Nonetheless, I also believe in scholarship in understanding the evolution of Greek pronunciation, but I see this as a more academic question. Most likely, even at the time the New Testament books were written, there was NO universally accepted pronunciation. The bottom line? For my own study, I use the Erasmian pronunciation to study koine Greek (and, if Iaught it, I would insist on it), but if I am called upon to read prayers in Greek in church, I use the modern Greek pronunciation, for the sake of my Greek Orthodox brothers and sisters. I agree with the presenter that this is relatively easy, if it is a matter of just a few well-known prayers, such as the Lord's prayer, the Trisagion and the paschal troparion.
Hi Dr. Darryl I am glad you decided to tackle this issue, seems like there is a lot of unnecessary internet hot air around the subject. I have followed your Flashcards tutorial and find myself wincing every time you say the word “deck” because to my British ear it sounds like “dick” I don’t hold it against you cause you are a kiwi and I enjoy your accent, twang, decco (Diversity in English is color). I would be interested to find out true Erasmian pronunciation cause there seems to be Texan Erasmian and Cambridge Erasmian. For me the benefits of the Erasmian system are specific sounds for each letter to differentiate between them. When I was beginning my Greek studies I took a modern Greek class which helped me with Alphabet and pronunciation then I was taught British Erasmian pronunciation and I adapted. Good to see that Dr. Plummer is including modern pronunciation in his grammar although his pronunciation seems to be illogical American Erasmian at times (Omicron as an “a” sound?) (Diversity in Greek is colour)
Thanks Steve! You are right. If we get away from the "big three" pronunciation approaches, with a world wide community with different native languages, local accents and dialects, the diversity of pronunciation we see today was very likely also evident even around the Mediterranean during the New Testament period. Thanks again!
what most peoplevdont realize is that the pronunciation of koine differed depending on where you were in the empire. In the southern portion they spoke with more dipthongs and a drawl. in the middle western region they lengthened their upsilons which made their college friends make fun of them. they were too polite to complain about it. they also had a fondness for dishes with cream of mushroom soup. these they called hot dishes. they were actually casserols.
Eraamian pronunciation is not even close, we know this because many Latin words came from Koine Greek, modern Greek is closer. Actually that short sound is a schwa.
Well, the plot thickens ... I've come across 2 other teachers of koine Greek (both Erasmus, I think?) and one pronounces the second letter as beta, the other says veta; and that's just for starters 🤔
So do I understand you to say that while the "real" Koine pronunciation is still debated, the Erasmian pronunciation of Koine Greek is what has been almost universally adopted by seminaries, colleges, and Universities teaching Koine Greek? And this way is the same as Mounce's way of pronunciation in BBG? Seems like the bigger distinction is between Koine and Modern Greek pronunciation, and that for practical purposes Erasmian = Koine pronunciation for most seminary and higher education and scholarly exchange in public audible discourse? If this is correct or incorrect, please let me know.
Yes, this is correct. Seminaries typically use Erasmian pronunciation, though professors are normally free to use whatever pronunciation they feel is best.
Only in North America and western Europe, in Greece, Eastern Europe, Egypt, and the Middle East the modern Greek pronunciation is ubiquitous. And that is also where you'll find the vast majority of spoken Koine Greek as it is still used as the liturgical language of the Orthodox Church and a variation on it (Katharevousa Greek, something of a hybrid between Koine and Modern Greek) is still used extensively for communication within the Orthodox patriarchates and universities.
I absolutely disagree, for language is in the mouth, not just in the head, and good scholarship demands we understand our authors as completely and accurately as possible.
Thanks Thom, so are you saying pronunciation is critical to proper understanding or are you arguing that a specific pronunciation is right? If the latter, which one and why? Thanks for watching!
@@bma Written Greek is like sheet music for the spoken culture of ancient Greek peoples. It is an essential given of good thinking to try our best to put ourselves into the place of the writers of that sheet music. And, having done that to the greatest extent that we can, to then try and understand. If we can understand how Greek was pronounced in the time of the writer of a particular piece of sheet music, so to speak, then we do less than we can if we ignore that. And how can we say we understand their sheet music if we do not sing it? My apologies for stretching the metaphor a little. I am trying not to set people's teeth at edge . Erasmus did the best he could. Perhaps many years from now, some AI will read sound waves embedded in microscopic layers of subterranean amphora and reproduce sounds last made by ancient Greek throats. But, until then, we must, as good thinkers and as those acting in good faith toward understanding, do everything we can to understand. Jesus and Paul and all the rest are singing meaning. They mean for you to hear, to incarnate, their meaning in the very biology of the hearer. As 1 John reads, we /heard/ and we /speak/. Let us try as best we can to do the same. And how can this not help us to not only learn a language, but to love it and be changed by it?
@Thom Chitttom: I agree with you. I think the brain is wired primarily for spoken language. Therefore I agree that pronunciation *is* important in learning a language. The right pronunciation as the text was actually pronounced at the time. Meaning each of Homer, Thucidides, Koine, and Modern Greek should be pronounced differently, because they are different languages. I posit that using a pronunciation system that actually fits the language will help the brain to learn that language.
I don't know why you are pronouncing the word "koine" wrong btw... Letters "oi" make the sound "ee" in greek. Koine is pronounced like "kee-nee". I see this in all these videos trying to teach ancient greeks to people and i don't know why they can't get even the title right. Koine greek is not pronounced k-oi-ne It is pronounced "ki-ni". I usually see this from American or English tutors that read from ancient scripts and they sound like aliens from mars when i hear them and cannot understand even a single word. And then i read the same script and i am amazed to how different they sound from what a native speaker of the language sounds. Yes we do not have a way to hear the ancient greeks speaking at their time, but we are certain that they do not sound like Americans from Louisiana trying to speak in modern "Greeklish" and at the same time (some of them) tell us that their pronunciation is closer to ancient Greeks than the language that Greeks speak now... This is not a personal attack btw , the problem seems to be older tutors that got on their own way to try and pronounce words completely different from what a native greek speaker sounds today , then they stayed in their little bubble and got so completely cut off from what greek sounds and in the end it simply doesn't make sense what it sounds like.
I don't think this is an important issue. Nobody alive today was there to hear how ancient Greek sounded, and there were likely variations as you travelled between regions anyway because Koine was a second language for so many people and most people lived within 20 miles of their place of birth which meant that accents tended to be localised. So, thanks for your feedback, but just as pronounce things different in English because I'm a kiwi, I'll probably sound out Greek different too. And that's OK. No doctrine depends on my pronunciation, and if it varies to modern pronunciation, no native Koine speaker will have a problem with it anyway. 😉 Actually, this is kind of the point of this video.
Thanks for this video. I agree with you :) I teach at Polis using the, let’s say, wannabe reconstructed/Erasmian pronunciation (I am aware that I’ll never speak as native Ancient Greek...) But there are students that use other pronunciations. I don’t like to impose anything, I just let me use whatever they want but perhaps for the others students is confusing, I think it’s more useful for communication if one community tries to stick to the same way of speaking. I think also, as you mentioned, that it’s more important to learn verbal aspect, the cases and so on. You can always improve your pronunciation later.
I'm Greek and never heard of that expression either (also I'm assuming you meant some specific way of pronouncing "koine" otherwise it can't make any sense. "Koine" is just a term referring to the Greek that was spoken around the time of Augustus)
well thats texan greek. try to o oikos kai oi oikoi. in erasmian way. It sounds like a texan riding on a horse and yelling to you. ergo texan greek or cowboy boots.
Can you get the Septuagint in Greek and the dead sea scrolls in Hebrew, then look at city and personal names as the Jews who translated it in those days would have gotten the translation as close as possible to their sounds. We should be able to figure out what the Hebrew vowels sounded like even though not written as well as Greek. Consents don't seem to change over time.
Is it not certain that in all the Greek speaking cities in any time in antiquity, there were differences in pronunciation? Surely the vowels were pronounced differently in different cities just as English vowels are pronounced differently today in different cities, even within the same country. (Remember Shibboleth in Hebrew?) I prefer to use a pronunciation which distinguishes the vowels without proving how much or how little itacism there was in Paul's pronunciation. I am not about to go the modern Greek itacism route. Use a pronunciation which distinguishes the vowels. I am not going to do the literal "length" on the vowels, like holding omega 2 beats & omicron 1 beat, as my ear is not tuned to literal length distinctions. But I can cheat and pronounce omicron as a Spanish o & omega by adding a w sound to it as in the English o. Eta I pronounce as the e in Spanish señor. I will not pronounce ai as epsilon. Chi I pronounce at the x in Mexico or ch in the scot word Loch.
Pronunciation is literally the main reason I've never committed myself to learning Greek because I don't even actually know if I'm truly "learning Greek".
Thank you for making the video. I am a little disappointed, because I thought I was going to see what the different pronunciation systems were. I think some of you guys forget what it was like to not know Greek. I am just starting. I want a pronunciation system that aligns with the spelling. Otherwise, learning to say the word does not help much in trying to memorize words. I want a system that is phonetic. I want to hold out the long vowels, etc. That way, when I memorize how to say a word, I pretty much learned how to spell it, especially if I throw in a pitch accent. This reinforces vocabulary learning. I'm learning words full of iota sounds, but somehow I am supposed to be able to produce a written word with dipthong and multiple letters for those iota sounds. I want something that matches the spelling. I think that is Erasmian. But I am confused about thetas, chis, and gammas, as to whether they were ever stops or were just fricatives, and even the beta is pronounced. But I want to stick with one 'official' pronunciation. I think Erasmic is closest to the letters, which is what I was hoping to find out watching this video, along with an actual argument for which one was best based on some scholars opinion. If I went with modern Greek, then I am learning a language with an awful spelling system that doesn't match the spoken language... like English. And that is a hard language for non-native speakers to have to learn. Spanish, on the other hand, pretty much matches the letters. If you know the system, you can read it out loud.
I agree. The Erasmian pronunciation is stable and easy. No matter how much others hate it, the fact is that Erasmian is close to whatever reconstructed pronunciation they are using.
you must not have kept up with current linguistic developments. I have read that most all current linguists have concluded that Erasmus was wrong. Scholars have reconstructed the way Alexander the Great spoke Greek, and remarkably it is similar to modern pronunciation. Also, it is clear that the Pslams and other poetic books of the bible can not be sung or chanted using the Eruasmian pronunciation, but flows in sing-song-like poetry using the modern Greek pronunciation. time to give up on Erusmus, and reject his ideas as a footnote of history. you will not quite understand how so much of the Bible was actually meant to be chanted out loud in front of a congregation, and therefore miss out on an important insight of how the author had intended their passages be used during worship and as liturgical chant. In other words, the author's intent as to how their scriptures was meant to be used is as much as important as knowing what the words actually mean. The words of a love song is understood differently than, for example, the terms of a marriage contract, even if they use similar words.
Has anyone ever decided what the "official" English pronunciation is for last year? Or the year before? English is the most spoken language in the world - of course, most of the time as a second language. Obviously there are thousands of different pronunciations of English on any given day! I think it's kind of ridiculous for anyone to claim any kind of "official" pronunciation for Koine Greek in the first century, when it was used over a vast area of the world. I can almost "guarantee" that there were many varied pronunciations. And it's even possible that the various early church leaders had different accents among themselves. They were from different areas. And back then, with less intercommunication, there must have been greater differences in the accents. However, it would be nice for our modern theological community to agree to a common Koine Greek pronunciation, simply so that we can stop arguing amongst ourselves, which seems so unchristian-like. ;-)
It sounds barbaric for us Greeks to hear the word "κοινή / common" as "ko-ee-ne". (Οι / oi) was and will be a diphtong and sounds as ee. So the word is : "keenee" (stress on the last e). Erasmus asked a Greek to tell him how to read the letters, because he wanted to translate the Bible. The Greek mocked him and told him other things than the truth. But that stayed in the books and that barbaric accent passed. At the end of his life Erasmus - after he had spoken to serious Greeks Byzantine grammarians - admitted his mistake and formally apologized. But the damage was already done. Greek has never dramatically changed its pronunciation and the way it is spoken. Besides, those who have kept the language for so many thousands of years know better. The Greek language was created and codified over thousands of years of observing nature and human activity and slowly each word gives the exact meaning of the object or ideal (the signifier is related to what is pointed out and not random words that will be called everything). This development, when it came time to move on to the written record - and after the first attempts at representations, followed the rules of spoken language. Thus were discovered the forms of letters that could reproduce everything around us in the best possible way. No letter is random and of course none comes from a different language. How could that be? When we open our mouths, we hear A (the letter shows above, the man looks up). B(V-eng), as one can easily see, represents the blast, the sound of B(V) > BBBB (VVVVouou), so the North (cold wind) is written with B(V). The exact same rule applies to all letters, but that's not intelligence (Ιδέα-Ιdea, which passes like an arrow from the mind). The double "ει" and "οι" were created to represent the long "ee" that existed in the spoken language and acquired spelling rules that we cannot analyze here. "οι" is always used in the suffixes of the masculine plural and in words that are related to something that surrounds us or that are related to human activity, eg. (οίνος-wine, οίκος-house, οίδα-I know, ο οποίος-which, (here "o" means the circle in which we act). "Ει" is a long "ee" and combines "ε" and "ι" because "ε" has a close phonetic relationship with "ι-ee". The "Ο-o" and the "Ω-ω" differ for the same reasons. The omega is a long o (oo), it always enters the endings of the verbs and the endings of the plural of all things or gernes e.g. (των ανθρώπων-of men, των παιδιών-of the children, των πόλεων-of the cities, των σκύλων-of the dogs, etc). The "ο=circle" in everything that bothers us and is related to property, energy, etc. (κόσμος-world, πόλεμος-war, τόπος-place, δρόμος-road, έξοδος-exit and so much more). In closing, I will repeat that every letter and especially the many "ee" have to do with the root of each word, so that we can understand what we are talking about to the one who reads us.
It's not about being a purist, Koine Greek remains the liturgical language of the Orthodoxy Church, it's not dead, it's still a spoken language and to deliberately butcher the pronunciation (not to merely mispronouncing words because you're learning or having a foreign accent, but to intentionally butcher it) is, quite frankly, rude and disrespectful. It also serves to establish a clear divide between Greek speakers and learners in Greece, Eastern Europe, the Middle East, and North Africa on one hand and Western Europe and North America on the other hand, ensuring there is minimal interaction between the two. And, no, pedagogical purposes is not much of an excuse; it would be like teaching Modern English using the Middle English pronunciation from before the great vowel shift because it makes English spelling easier to learn, it's absurd.
You don't think that there are pronunciation differences between the Greek Orthodox and Russian Orthodox churches? Do Orthodox churches use modern pronunciation? Isn't this different to Koine pronunciation to some extent? Where do you draw the line and why?
@@bma Well, Russian Orthodox Church services are not done in Greek, they are done in Church Slavonic, a constructed liturgical language probably most closely related to Old Bulgarian. However, all the Russians I've encountered who have learned Ancient/Koine/Patristic Greek in Russia have learned it using the modern Greek pronunciation. The Church (along with most academics in Greece, Eastern Europe, and the Middle East) does use the modern Greek pronunciation, not the reconstructed Koine pronunciation; reconstructed pronunciations are more of an Western Europe/Anglo-Saxon thing. I also think it is important to use the modern Greek pronunciation if you're ever going to use the language liturgically or read Greek in the Churches (and I'm certain pretty much every Bishop would insist on this). However, if you're never going to use the language liturgically, I think the revised Koine is a reasonable compromise between the biases of western academia (using reconstructed pronunciations from the time of the text) and the practice of the Greeks (using one pronunciation for all Greek); at least it's not offensive to the ears and doesn't come across as mocking like the Erasmian pronunciation. Furthermore, in practice, it sounds awful close to modern Greek, especially if you're not accustom to listening for vowel length (and most modern Greek and English speakers are not, as this is no longer a feature in either language). The Erasmian pronunciation is simply not a historical pronunciation of Greek, it was never used and it doesn't even sound Greek; as I said before, it comes across as mocking the language. Though it would be a bit of an anachronism for Koine Greek, if you are interested in a reconstruction of 6th century BC (or possibly even earlier, depending on which scholarship you go with) Greek pronunciation, Luke Ranieri over on the polyMATHY RUclips channel has come up with a reconstruction he calls his 'Lucian Pronunciation.' But even that, though from over 500 years before the New Testament, 200 years before Alexander the Great, and before all the 'ee' sounds started to converge, it sounds far more authentically Greek than any Erasmian pronunciation I have ever encountered. Though I'm personally biased towards just using the modern pronunciation like the Greeks for reasons of uniformity and though I suspect some sounds would be difficult for a native English speaker compared to just using Modern Greek pronunciation, especially due to features like vowel length, and while I think this would be more acceptable in an Attic Greek context than a Koine Greek context, the video on it does present a lot of interesting information on the history of Greek Pronunciation that might help inform your views: ruclips.net/video/Dt9z5Gvp3MM/видео.html
As someone who studies many different languages (living ones and otherwise), I simply cannot endure the Erasmian pronunciation. When I hear Christian scholars speak Greek that way I can hardly take them seriously because they sound so static and unnatural. It often feel that seminaries are basically scholarly echo chambers where everyone just follows along with what they are told, even if it sounds completely silly. I say this as someone who seriously thought about going to seminary back in the day, but I am glad I didn't, because at this age, I realize I would not have fit in well because I am not very good at just following along just because it's the way someone tells me it should be.
erasmian pronunciation always just sounds wrong reconstructed koine pronunciation is fine I guess, but I don't see any advantage of that over modern pronunciation; plus, we have the advantage of being able to listen to native speakers
My problem with the modern pronunciation is that η, ι, υ, ει and οι all sound the same (ee)! For example, this makes the first- and second-personal plural pronouns sound the same!
Is not a big issue because the purpose of mastering biblical Greek is one of understanding what you are reading instead of speaking. Unless you move to Greece and want to talk to natives speakers in a daily basis.
I tend to agree, the NT is basically prose not poetry, stuff like vowel length and other phonemic value specifics are not that important for understanding the text personally as a reader. Learning to stick to a rigid pronunciation system would only be important if you plan to learn to sing greek ecclesiastical hymns or attend Greek Orthodox liturgy but for the simple purpose of studying the NT text at your home any pronunciation scheme you choose will do fine
The Erasmian translation is the worst thing that happened to the Greek language. It's repugnant at best. Modern Greek is the closest thing to Greek than everything else.
A Modern Greek teacher told me that we know Ancient Greek pronunciation was different from Modern Greek. “Sheep say ‘BAY, BAY’ not ‘VEE, VEE’”. (Beta-eta)
Por meio da crítica textual, descobriu-se o fragmento de um manuscrito antigo, atribuído ao cômico Aristófanes, que grafa o balido da ovelha como: "βη... βη... βη". Seguindo a ortoépia sugerida por Reuchlin e do grego moderno, o balido da ovelha seria "vi...vi...vi", enquanto, na erasmiana "bē...bē...bē".
"Eta"(H) was used to mark aspiration originally, a usage which survived in Latin (and modern english) it was only repurposed as a "long" epsilon around the end of the 5th century BC before succumbing to iotacism at some point around the time the NT was being written
So just look after romeika or rumca in the rural area of Trabzon in modern eastern black Sea turkey. There u can see the pronunciation of the attic dialect from 800 b.c. in nowadays life! Make your conclusion of this. There was a whole research conducted by the cambridge university by Dr Sitaridou. There is a short trailer on youtube. Και is ke!
1:33 - I’m not convinced that the ‘Modern Pronunciation camp’ is the single, most prevalent group of Greek enthusiasts who can be reasonably characterized as ‘purists’, looking down on others. I think that description is only apt with respect to native Greek speakers (especially within Greece itself). It’s practically non-existent outside of Greece; at least, if we’re talking about Greek studies in seminaries or any other academic institutions. It’s hardly a blip on the radar really. Can anyone tell me where Reuchlinian pronunciation of Ancient Greek is actually taught outside of Greece? Can anyone name at least one institution? One professor who actively implements the system? In my experience, all sides of the pronunciation debate tend to take dogmatic positions with respect to their chosen system. Open mindedness seems to be restricted to Latin enthusiasts. Erasmian, Restored Classical, Restored Koine… those are the 3 dominant systems. That’s the battle ground. They may be somewhat accepting of people on the other end of the tripartite spectrum. Erasmian probably gets more flack from the other members of the triad. But, on the whole, they all tend to deem Reuchlinian pronunciation impractical, at best, or cacophonous, at worst. Just have a listen to it: ruclips.net/video/Pa8i-F04PKQ/видео.html
Thanks for you thoughtful comment! Perhaps you're right and I overstated my case. I agree with you that we often draw battle-lines unnecessarily. I'm convinced that some of this comes down to our own uncertainty and fear of being wrong - which is itself a major problem. I hope that by recognizing the differences we can grow in humility and learn to listen and interact better. Thanks again for your comment!
See my latest video on pronunciation and why I've changed my mind here: ruclips.net/video/cWSFbN9_Dh4/видео.html
Does the correct pronunciation have any real meaning? However, no one benefits from it in any way, because as far as I know, not a single person speaks it as a native language nowadays. Besides, in the history of Christian churches, there are many more incredible things, such as the fact that priests preached in "Latin" to people who did not know Latin - and the icing on the cake was that most priests did not know Latin either - they just blurted out something that sounded like it.
Why? Because the underlings of the adversary of our Creator, a group of church fathers who distorted the teachings of the Bible had decided that the pure Christianity of the Bible was not profitable enough. So in their opinion, it was better to modify the Christian doctrine according to the mind of people and less according to the mind of God. Jesus spoke the truth in Matthew 7:13-14, but fake Christianity turned the broad way into right and the narrow way into wrong. So they had rejected the truth and turned to fables - - or as the apostle Paul put it in 2 Timothy 4:3-4. Do you remember?
For Jesus, uneducated men who were ordinary people were suitable as apostles, and the teaching was always free. It's different today, when fake Christianity has become big business, where teachers get paid to lie to their sheep. In church services, money is collected visibly so that no one dares not to give money because others are watching. In some cases, the church receives its income as a mandatory part of employee and business taxation. Instead, Jesus taught to do good in his own way without pay Matthew 10:8.
Remember 2. Thessalonians 2. chapter...
When I originally learned Greek in Bible school, I was taught the Erasmian pronunciation. At that time I stumbled upon a book in the school's library on the reconstructed classical pronunciation of Greek. I became fascinated with this pronunciation and studied it. At the time, I was also taking a course in linguistics and phonetics, which made it easier to understand the book about classical Greek pronunciation.
I came to favor the classical pronunciation for several reasons. Probably the most important one was that with the classical pronunciation, it made remembering the correct spelling of Greek words easier. Another reason I favor the classical pronunciation is that I just like the sound of it. It has a rhythmical quality that other pronunciations lack.
Much later in my life I also learned the modern pronunciation when I decided to try to learn some modern Greek. I do not like using the modern pronunciation when reading the NT because there are too many sounds that have become alike that make spelling more confusing.
I have continued to this day reading the NT with the classical pronunciation. I often read passages aloud because I love the sound of it. I realize that the classical pronunciation was not generally spoken in the NT period, but I have read that there was an intellectual movement during that time that attempted to revive the classical pronunciation. Personally, I believe that Paul was likely at least familiar with that pronunciation.
Over the years, as I have read various passages of Paul's writing using the classical pronunciation, I have discovered various portions where it seems that Paul's choice of words and word order were influence by the sound of the passage in classical Greek, as when read aloud with the Classical pronunciation, the passage sounds like poetry with rhythmic qualities that are not apparent with other pronunciations. One of those passages is Romans 3:10-19 (verse 19 is particularly striking). Another passage is Ephesians 4:20-24. Also I find this in most of Romans 8. There are also a few passages in the writings of John that show this same poetic lyrical quality, notably the first few verses of 1 John 1 and 1 John 2:12-14.
This has been a very interesting discovery. I have never come across anyone else who has learned the classical pronunciation and uses it to read the NT, and consequently, I have never come across anyone who has mentioned the lyrical/poetic quality of portions of the New Testament.
As far as the importance of which pronunciation, I don't really think it matters that much. But I just wanted to tell my own experience, for what it's worth.
When you say classical pronunciation you mean Erasmian right?
@@John-nb6ep Unlikely. The Erasmian system has evolved into an English sounding one. Far from the classical approach.
Classical pronunciation is probably not historically accurate though for how Greek of the 1st 2nd centuries etc. sounded, however. But whatever works!
@@pierceh.5670 A great deal of linguistic research has been done on both the classical pronunciation and the 1st and 2nd century pronunciation. I have a series of audio recordings by a linguistics professor who has done extensive research on classical pronunciation. I have used that information for my own pronunciation. There are some interesting passages in Paul's writings and John's writings, which when read with the classical, reveal poetic rhythm that is not noticeable using the usual American pronunciation of Erasmus' made-up pronunciation. Also, using classical pronunciation helps with spelling of NT Greek words.
Erasmus should have traveled to Greece with his manuscripts and asked them "hey, how do you pronounce this?"
I agree with you a 100%
Great point, Zachariah!
You re damn right about that .... native Greek speaker here and even i when i happen to hear some kind of literature pronounced with the Erasmian pronunciation , its seems that i m hearing a totally foreign language not just a very old , ancient version of mine .
Lucius pronantiation style although yes its not like modern Greek , sounds way better and with a proper flow in a native
person's ears .
@@dionysismichalopoulos5246 , I agree, the pronunciation is unnatural. Καλη Σαρακοστη!
Erasmus was tough Greek by a Greek, with the accent of the Greeks at the time. He however wanted to create a prediction of how Classical Greek sounded like. But, we can’t really see his pronunciation as an accurate interpretation of the accent of classical Greece, since no one actually knew how it sounded like.
My takeaways on choosing which pronunciation to choose:
1. What is your purpose of learning Greek?
2. This should not cause to delay learning Greek.
3. There are more important things in learning Greek than pronunciation (as important it may be).
Regarding 2.: Yes, learning the pronunciation of Koine Greek takes a bit of time, but really that much? I learned English from non-native speakers of the English language at school. Some of them did some pronunciation mistakes and although now I had heard the correct pronunciation several times, I sometimes inadvertently revert to the incorrect pronunciation that I learned at school. So I think it's easier to learn the correct pronunciation from the start instead of getting used to an incorrect pronunciation. I have to say that pronunciation is not the biggest struggle for me and that pronunciations of languages is part of what fascinates me of languages. And in the case of Koine greek, I'm also interested in how Koine native speakers pronounced it.
I certainly do not intend to offend anyone with my comment. After listening to Philemon Zachariou regarding the proper pronunciation of Greek. I agree that the Erasmian system is held up largely because of tradition and many excuses. Although, I do think it makes sense that we see many different versions of the English language. And it all seems to come down to one's own personal taste. As long as it is understandable to the listener. Although, I find that Erasmian system hideous altogether. To me it always sounds like an american trying to speak a foreign language. A spanish speaker makes it sound more authentic and beautiful. The same would probably be true of many other non-english languages. Learning the modern Greek version of Koine makes sense because it accommodates a living language. And also sounds beautiful. I personally see the present day Erasmian approach as a counterfeit, and very unlike what Erasmian began as. I apologize if have come to misunderstand the information. But I have had a deep look at many of the Greek grammars. And its just a personal view of mine that one should create a foundation on whatever they plan to stick to. Not on what is easiest. When you build a house, do you take the easiest approach? Many modern builders do. And that's why the old houses lasted longer.
I want to comment that the monasteries in Greece use the modern pronunciation for hundreds of years and hundreds of years before Erasmus and they have manuals of the way to sing the New Testament as I personally encountered in places like Mount Athos for example.. They have there manuals that date back to 10th century... Of course you have a big gap between 1st century and 10th century but I would like to believe that these monastic communities keep a very strict traditional continuity of their heritage
Yes, you're right. Koine pronunciation was more like modern pronunciation than the more classical sounding Erasmian pronunciation.
@@bma Maybe the Erasmian pronunciation applies more to ancient Greek than Koine.. But I am not an expert of course.. Your work is great.. But I find Koine Greek a very difficult language... The words are very long and very difficult to pronounce both with the Erasmian or the contemporary one. But can I ask you something?You believe that our Lord was preaching in Greek also? In John's 12:20-23 says that Jesus spoke to some Greeks that they were interested to meet Him.
Yes. There is good evidence that Erasmian pronunciation is consistent with Classical Greek. And, yes, scholars generally hold that Jesus spoke Aramaic, Hebrew and Greek and that His Aramaic and Greek may have been stronger than his Hebrew! Thanks for watching and your comments!
@@bma Thank you! Greetings from the Netherlands!
@@bma , my research has shown this to be true!
My main issue is, why continue to teach Erasmian pronunciation when we know it's wrong for Koine Greek?
I'm not being a purist here; it just seems silly to persist in this now that we know better.
Koine and modern pronunciation are not hugely different, so I don't care a whole lot about which is taught between those two.
Erasmian just seems like you're trying to shoehorn English phonology into the Greek alphabet, and if you're going to do that, why not just transcribe everything into the Roman alphabet and be done with it?
Thanks for the question! I think it is fair. I certainly understand where the question comes from. Here's my quick response: Erasiman does have the advantage of providing different sounds for each letter and it distinguishes the rough breathing from the smooth, which them maps well with what students already know of Greek words (e.g. hydro, hyper, etc). So, it really comes down to pedagogy vs authenticity/purity. I've been tempted to switch but the pedagogy keeps me teaching and therefore using Erasmian.
your anser is a joke right? because socratis was from texas and had cowboyboots. erasmus is a clown
@@bma what is the pedagogical usefulness of the erasmian?
They are very different in pronunciation and Textual Criticism of the LXX and New Testament have many thousands of spelling errors clearly caused by less educated, in Greek, scribes. The same spelling errors are found as far back to 403 B.C. concerning interchangeable vowels when their alphabet was made official. It is the same with potsherd inscriptions. One should learn the correct pronunciation just as one would in any language. Try making your argument with a native Greek, Christian, Linguist of Greek and English with Dr. Philemon Zachariou, or C.C. Caragounis.
@@Rightlydividing-wx1xb Very good points. I can not imagine reading κοινή with the Erasmian pronunciation, which is not only inaccurate, it is also ugly. The greek speaking churches throughout the eons have used and adapted the pronunciation to what is the case today. Why are the Erasmians so dead set to be using a totally made up pronunciation? They deprive their students of the beauty of the language, and the Hellenic scholarship on the Christian bible.
I just started learning Koine Greek with the Biblical Mastery Academy. I had concerns about pronunciation as soon as I learned there were different methods. But as I watched this video, it occurred to me that Darryl "mispronounces" most of his vowels, yet I can still understand him. 😄 In one of the first videos I watched of Darryl, he repeatedly talked about the "tense" of a word. I had no idea what he was talking about until about the 6th time he used the word. I'm sure Darryl believes he is correctly pronouncing vowels just as sure as I am correctly pronouncing vowels. This has helped put Koine Greek pronunciation in perspective for me. Thanks Darryl!
I prefer the Modern Greek way that Greeks use today. This is mainly because that's how I started learning Greek, and it sounds more fluid than the Erasmian way.
I don't get what is the problem with you!! You don't realize that from the moment the Bible was written, it has been read out loud everywhere in the eastern roman and later on the byzantine empire. It's part of the divine liturgy. And the language for divine liturgy is greek. It's a tradition that passed on from generation to generation. And the way it is chanted, the way we sing, we recite, is a mnemonic way to chant all over the Greek-speaking world. Despite the fact that there are different accents everywhere, you don't notice any difference if you enter a greek church. Divine liturgy in koine greek has never been stopped, NEVER. You don't have to reinvent something that has been always PRESENT! You know that there are scripts from the 6th century for chanting in greek which are still in use today regularly.
Hi Elias! Perhaps the "problem" with me is that I'm not a native Greek, nor a Greek orthodox! However, I'm not commenting here on what has taken place in the Greek speaking church, though this is helpful. Instead, I'm commenting as a non-european westerner on internal discussions between those who teach and learn koine Greek as a second or third language. Thanks for your comments!
@@bma Hi! My intensions were not this messege to sound offensive. But I want to point out in my opinion that the matter must be less complicated than you discribe it. The koine greek was a form of classical greek simplified up to a point that not native greek speakers could communicate with others from different backrounds and ethnicities throughout eastern roman empire. Keep up with your great job.
Thanks for the clarification. Did you see my video on What is Koine Greek? I addressed the history of the language a bit there. Thank you for watching!
@@bma Exactly, koine greek not only simplified through the years grammatically, as you clearly put it, but phonetically as well.
45 years ago in college, I learned the Erasmian system. I was told at the time that even though we knew it was significantly different from actual first-century pronunciation, it didn't really matter, because we weren't trying to speak the language--nobody did, we were told--but merely to translate it.
Within the past several years I've been exposed to the reconstructed system, which I have been trying to switch to. Although it is unlikely that I will ever be in a community of speakers of Koine Greek (or even modern Greek), I still tend to think it is a worthwhile effort for me because I want to improve my ability to read Greek, rather than just translate it. I believe that the better my understanding is of all facets of the language, the better that I will be able to read it with fluency. Isn't that true of all language learning?
I have struggled some with switching from Erasmian to reconstructed pronunciation. In an earlier comment, Neil Ellson points out that dialects and accents existed in the first century, as well as in modern English. People learn to use different accents all the time, so there's no reason that I can't learn a second "accent" of Koine Greek.
Thanks for your thoughtful comment, Earl! I agree that anything you can do to improve your knowledge of the language will be helpful, especially once you're through the beginning Greek stage. Blessings!
@@bma How different is the reconstructed Greek and Modern Greek?
Earl, I have a greek friend from a small community gf Greek speakers in Albania, they still speak Ελληνιστική Κοινή!
@@Eagle1349 Thats cool
@@levicruz2609It has only two differences (in the pronunciation of "υ" and "οι")
I speak French, and I see that modern Greek pronunciation allows me to guess the meaning of Greek words often because a good number of French words with Greek origin are orthographed and pronounced based on modern Greek pronunciation.
Can you give me some examples?
I have no place to say right or wrong either way, but I would buy tickets to get a mix of Australian, American, and British folks in a room to argue why it’s not folly to insist on pronouncing an ancient language correctly.
In Greece, depending on where you live, there are different accents just as there are in the US. But as a Greek speaker, the pronunciation taught in the West sounds outright goofy. There's no way the κοίνε (koine) would have sounded that way. (Btw, koine should be pronounced kEE'-neh)
No doubt the pronunciation was different 2000 years ago but it would be nothing like what's being taught in English universities.
To get a much better idea of what the pronunciation would have sounded like, go to the Anton Tasos channel and you can slow the Bible videos down to 50%.
He is speaking what he is reading perfectly.
I learned Erasmian in high school and modern for Koine. I like the modern Greek much better. It actually sounds to me like a language rather than a code.And it flows.
Simply based on aesthetics, I would prefer to learn modern Greek pronunciation, vs. Erasmian.
One thing I like about MNTG is that Darryl has his own views about things but he keeps the program flexible enough to allow people with different views to operate within the program without feeling pressure to conform. I’m switching to Modern but I try to use Erasmian when interacting with others in the group. BUT I still trip up pronouncing Greek words. Not discouraged though...I get tripped up pronouncing some English words too lol 😂
Very true!
@5SolasApologist yes
I agree that it’s not actually a big issue. Interesting? Yes, but I think our focus as Christians for learning Greek should be to use it to draw others to Christ first and foremost. I don’t think researching this topic isn’t important, it’s just not at the top of our priority list.
My professor in college taught the Erasmian pronunciation, but during my second year in Greek, he told us he thought the modern pronunciation was closer to correct (though likely not entirely the same as you pointed out.) After he explained his reasoning and presented evidence, I chose to re-learn it in the modern pronunciation. It wasn’t too hard and you’re right! Now I understand and can learn from teachers who use either pronunciation.
Thanks for this video. To be honest I think I had the tendency to get a little haughty, thinking I was so correct in choosing the modern pronunciation, which is not a good attitude to have toward anybody, but especially brothers and sisters in Christ.
I really appreciate your comment! Thank you!
Well, the pronunciation of the language any text is written in is very relevant to whatever puns that text may contain. And Greeks and Romans certainly were inordinately fond of their puns. Something to consider.
If you want to hear how it is spoken just attend liturgy at a Greek orthodox church.
The New Zealand/ Australian pronunciation of "text" is quite distinctive. 😁😁😁
When people go about trying to teach Ancient Greek (Attic or Koine) as a living language, most don’t use Modern Greek pronunciation. One Greek professor (who is himself Greek) referenced an Ancient Greek play saying “Sheep say ‘beh, beh’; not ‘vee, vee’”. (You have to imagine that said with a thick Greek accent!)
So it becomes important for places like the Conversational Koine Institute, The Polis Institute, Polymathy, Randal Buth’s Institute and those wonderful young people on Trios-Trivium who speak fluent Attic Greek to be able to speak with each other.
There are about 20,000 fluent Latin speakers in the world who go to conferences, symposia, etc. Ancient Greek speakers should catch up!
Dear friend, about the "Sheep say ‘beh, beh’; not ‘vee, vee’”, i have to tell you that the word for sheep in classical times used to be" ΟΙΣ" no "ΠΡΟΒΑΤΟΝ" like today, which comes from "ΠΡΟΒΑΙΝΩ" means i walk in front of others, second it was actually a comedy means to make people lough and is a very usual joke even today in Greek, (using different sounds for different animals), so it's not very good example to prove anything. Still is quite odd for someone to believe that in ancient Greek there was not a letter for the sound of the English "v", "y" (as in yesterday) or "th" (as in they) and for the letter "Γ" I could find it weird to have 3 different ways to pronounce the English "g", like Γ,ΓΓ,ΓΚ and not one for the "y" (as in yet) A little late comment but anyway, have a nice day!
@@kalliaspapaioannou7045
Me: “DO YOU UNDERSTAND THE WORDS THAT’RE COMMIIN’ OUTTA MY MOUTH?”
St. Paul: “Man, ain’t nobody unnastan’ the words that’re commin’ outta your mouth!” 😂 😂 😂
@@g.v.6450 Fair enough, i was just talking only about the certain phrase and probably some others, that makes things more complicated.
I favor modern because my long term goal is fluency and being able to converse with modern Greek speakers is a great help towards that. I do find the Erasmian pronunciation to be easier to discern and more pleasing to the ears but modern pronunciation better serves my current goals.
@@GorgeousGeorge97 Γειά σου τωρά 😅. I'm honestly not sure 5 months later why I said pleasing to the ears for erasmian when no one uses it to speak, sing, or make poetry. Not my best wording.
I married a Greek and spent time in Greece, where I was told by some that Greeks were offended by foreigners' attempts to reconstruct ancient pronunciations as if Greek were not a living language. Whether this is true or not, I did find it was much easier to switch to modern pronunciation. Trying to keep track of two different pronunciation systems as I learned both Koine and modern Greek was just too difficult.
I don't know about offended but it's definitely cringe-worthy to hear our own language pronounced differently.
I learned modern Greek before I was born again. So I stick to it.
Here’s an interesting link that addresses this question:
ruclips.net/video/Dt9z5Gvp3MM/видео.html
Another catch is that Koine Greek uses pitch accentuation whereas Modern Greek uses stress. That’s not so difficult if you’ve learned a tonal language.
Lastly, whichever pronunciation you use, for the love of all that’s good and holy, speak with a Greek accent!! Speaking Greek with an English or American accent (regardless of pronunciation) is just painful to listen to!
I’m thankful I learned historic pronunciation rather than Erasmian.
Not that those who learn Erasmian are any less proficient in their exegesis, but we know 100% that Erasmian is not how the language was pronounced. To what degree historic represents the real koine pronunciation is unknown, though it’s probably closer than modern and certainly more than Erasmian. In the end, it doesn’t make a big difference, but I genuinely prefer the historic system.
I prefer to use the modern pronunciation, because it helps when learning modern greek. Learning "reconstructed" pronunciation and modern pronunciation is a wast if time. Besides, native greeks use modern pronunciation when they read NT text in koine.
I like the idea of aiming to use the pronunciation used at the time Jesus and Paul would have been hearing and using Greek. I understand there are regional variations, but at the end of the day, I like the idea of being able to detect any rhyme and rhythm that would only be detectable if we try to use the same pronunciation. Dr Randall Buth is also just a very cool and knowledgeable guy, so I love to use the resources from his website.
There has been some recent work done by Philemon Zachariou. He argues that the Erasmian pronunciation has had an impact on scholarship which I find interesting. After knowing all the facts, it really does seem like a personal choice based on one's priorities. The idea you brought up about looking at the scribal errors has a lot of merit to it. Thanks for bringing that up.
I think an appropriate analogy is the difference between sanskrit chanting mantra and prayer. Sanskrits “power” is in the sound, and the chants are meant to be heard simply according to precise pronunciation, meter, and intonation. However prayer focused on meaning and establishing a personal relationship with the lord in supplication. So koine Greek pronunciation at least for spiritual purpose is not essential at all, because the specific sound is not the bud of prayer’s power
How did they worship in the book of Acts? Today some people are worshipping in silent adoration while others are jumping up and down waving their arms. Which is the correct way? Does it matter? All of them are doing it for the glory of God. As mature Christians we should be able to accept the other group unconditionally even if we prefer a different way - especially if we have a very strong conviction that we are right (God opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble). The same with the greek pronunciation. I like to wave my arms when I worship but I do not jump up and down. What do you think Darryl, is that like the reconstructed greek pronunciation? Thanks again for all your videos, I love watching them! Blessings, Christo
Thanks so much for your thoughtful comment! I think one distinction I would make is that worship is much more theological than pronunciation, so in that sense there is a disconnect. The problem is that some people make pronunciation into a divisive issue like it is theological.
If you don't want to be heckled by Modern Greeks, do not try to read Koine Greek like an Erasmian....
I've just finished Philemon Zachariou's book and would encourage anyone interested in this topic to at least view his summary video:
ruclips.net/video/wYtrVlpnpg4/видео.html
For me personally I have been a student of Greek (Νεοελληνικά) for some time and use that HGP for Κοινή. As another commenter below stated, since we know Erasmian is wrong, why do we still use it? It's synthetic and nobody EVER spoke like that.
I am just a beginner but i have found very confusing how to pronounce the alphabates correctly because American teacher e.g say bayda zayda, a teacher from Greek pronuncate differently someone from UK will pronuncate differently. This is real struggle when someone's local accent or pronuncation kicks in instead of teaching or using the way it should be pronounced. Need help.
The erasmian pronunciation is simply unbearable to Greek ears. Wrong too if you ask me, a "latinized" version on ancient Greek. Let's hope our foreign friends will stop using it at some point in the future.
What about using reconstructed Attic pronunciation instead of reconstructed Koine?
Will they debate the pronunciation of 20th/21st century English in 2000 years time as they read history books and primary sources of our lives and times, about the World wars, the Cold War, the war on Terror and the Covid pandemic. Let’s get a Scott, an Australian, a Canadian, a southerner from the USA, a South African, an Indian, an Irishman, a New Zealander and Jamaican in room together, all countries with large numbers of native English speakers. Then see if we can even get two of them to agree on what is the correct pronunciation. I am sure it would have been the same back in the 1st Century with Greek.
A fundamental mistake both camps do is that they assume that there is one modern Greek pronunciation. There is Athenian pronunciation, Thessalonicean pronunciation, Cretan pronunciation, Cypriot pronunciation, Pontic pronunciation, Griko pronunciation (in southern Italy) and more. Saying that there is one correct is calling the others incorrect.
Im gonna use modern Greek pronunciation so the Greeks don't make fun of me.
Although I applaud you for choosing the Modern Greek pronunciation, I think you should learn it simply for yourself and your own goals, not to avoid ridicule. Greeks generally don't mock and tease foreigners trying to learn their language, anyway. Erasmian/Reconstructed pronunciations just sound cringey or even ugly to Greeks, so they tend to have an involuntary recoil reaction when someone deviates from the Greek phonology they know. This is understandable, of course. Italians may experience a similar response when hearing reconstructed classical Latin pronunciation, as opposed to the Ecclesiastical one.
Yes practically there is no problem in how you pronounce Greek.You could speak them as an Arian or with a British accent or even you could not speak (or should I say spe-a-k ?)them at all and you would be o.k.
But two things:
1)How would you like to here the word easy as e-a-s-a-i ?
Or "would" as o-u-l-d ?
Even more : the word "greek" as gre-e-k ?
Mmmm ?
2) We are all certain that the lunguages evolve.True.
But what about a lunguage evolving at some period and then later on , going back to a previous form before the period of the evolution?
Greek has evolved during the years , but in a totally different way that Erasmus stated.
I have studied through Polis Institute in Jerusalem for years the Erasmian pronunciation. Some from seminaries butcher that pronunciation that makes it not sound authentic at all, no disrespect just being real... but this Erasmian pronunciation sounds quite nice. When I went to Jerusalem for 2 years and studied the language and the morphology, the rough breathing of consonants and the vowels, it just MAKES SENSE. The morphology applies to vowels, diphthongs but also consonants. For example, when we consider the three families for consonants: labials, dentals and palatals, how they morph and why based on adjacent letters, e.g. the stem connecting to the endings etc, and the morphological changes that takes place... the whole system is better explained by consider the pronunciation of the Erasmian, particularly by not throwing out the rough breathing.
Having said all of that, I don't think the pronunciation goal should be to BE LIKE AN ANCIENT GREEK but rather the goal is to read and understand the text. So being able to converse with others helps internalize any languages which yields understanding. So speak it like those you have in your circles so that you can internalize the language, whatever pronunication that might be.
This is an old video but I have a question... Knowing that there chants and hymns in the Greek Orthodox liturgy that are coming from the Byzantine times and still are used today and the pronunciation is the same, the modern one, isn't it a good statement about the pronunciation of the last at least 1.500 years? Knowing also that these people were so much closer to the classical times than us or even Erasmus doesn't say anything about what was going on back then. And if Erasmus is right when that changed?
At highschool, before we even had any contact with ancient texts, we dealt with some significant features of the various ancient Greek dialects (Mycenaean, Aeolic, Doric, Ionic, etc.). The Ancient Greek texts that are taught and studied in the universities and faculties are written in the Attic Dialect, so instead of "Ancient Greek" it's more accurate to say "Attic Dialect" and Hellenistic or Koiné (κοινή = common, public) depending on the period.
Some of the phonetical changes had already occurred to some dialects even before the Hellenistic era.
I think pronunciation is very important. I don't think there's an always right pronunciation, though there are certainly wrong pronunciations.
It makes a difference in how we approach manuscripts (ὑμεῖς and ἡμεῖς being blunt examples), how we catch wordplay (ἐλέος and ἐλαιον), and the like. Being picky about pronunciation when learning it can also help pick up the language better. Ancient poetry was virtually entirely aureal, so if we read that, we need to pay attention to some historical pronunciation.
It's not entirely true it's no trouble to learn another pronunciation, though. If you didn't learn vowel length, then learning an accurate pronunciation from antiquity is extremely difficult, because the morae are difficult to insert if you don't learn them as you go. So if someone will want to learn to read ancient poetry or eventually move to a classical pronunciation, not focusing on it early is actually a road block.
There are more profitable things in the beginning and students shouldn't get to pick but rather rely on their teachers. I agree with that, but pronunciation matters a lot and shouldn't be downplayed. It also matters in what circles you walk in. For example, if you're going to interact with modern Greeks, they're very picky partly because westerners have a somewhat colonial attitude to the language. In Orthodox Churches, only the demotic pronunciation is acceptable very similar to how you need ecclesiastical Latin in Roman Catholic churches.
The ancient Greek words used in European languages sound close to Modern Greek. End of discussion, End of debate. End of arguments
Thank you for this video. For me I think pronunciation often affects accents, which can affect verb cases and understanding. Some differences with modern pronunciation vs older can create a few difficulties at times with spellings and cases due to accents that are dropped, changed, or eleded. That may be more of a mental gear shift if too much emphasis is placed on speaking vs reading, and comprehension can be attained either way. But I can't read text without hearing it in my head in some fashion. Even to use English as an example, if I read the KJV or even Beowulf or some older version of English, it's much easier to read if I apply the rhythms and accents of the text's time period than to try to read it with a modern English tones, especially if I'm trying to comprehend as well as read, not to mention memorization issues. Putting the wrong em-PHAS-is on the wrong syl-LAB-le, so to speak, lol. On the other hand, the topic can certainly be taken too far and put the focus on the wrong thing. Comprehension is really the goal. Blessings!
Thanks for your comment! Yes, accents are the clue to pronouncing the words though, not the method of pronunciation you'd employ to actually pronounce the word. Having said that, there may be times when the rhythm lends itself more to one form of pronunciation than another. Thanks again!
@@bma You are such a wise professor. Great point, thank you!
Nice video, thanks. I think pick your weapon and stick with it. Consistency for yourself is more important than which pronunciation you choose. Part of me thinks it would be good to go with reconstructed as the most likely to be accurate but I’ve spent so long hearing Erasmian in my head I don’t want to change now.
Listening to how we all manage to speak English in our own wonderful way, I think the topic is moot. If we all try to follow the same pronunciation pattern it will inevitably sound different anyway, as would Greek back in New Testament time depending on where you were from. Jesus’ main disciples were easily marked as Galilean from their accents, whether they spoke Aramaic of Greek.
That's an inciteful perspective Neil--thanks! I have been thinking about the pronunciation issue for several years, but it had not occurred to me that there were variations at that time. And even in English today we have many dialects and accents, and yet manage to communicate fairly easily most of the time.
Great points Neil! Thanks for sharing!
A lot of people don't know that Koine was originally pronounced with a charming Aussie twang. j/k!
There’s no one who speaks it, so you don’t really need it.
(although it might give you nuances on certain rhymes or wordplays in the New Testament, perhaps)
It’s a blessing to know that in the new heaven and earth, there will be no language barriers, or even misunderstandings, and we will all understand, and we will know even as we are known.
Amen. Maranatha.
I've seen reasons to use both koine and modern in multiple diffrent scenarios
How would you interpret....
600
60
6
Thanks
Hmm. Now I'm confused. I was told by John D. Schwandt that proper stressing of Greek is important not only b/c it can be distracting but primarily because improper stressing can confuse verb tense and noun case. At this point in my Greek learning journey, I don't understand how that could be...
Do native English speakers read Shakespeare with a "reconstructed" pronunciation? NO.
Do English learners read Shakespeare with a "reconstructed" pronunciation? NO.
Does every English speaker (weather from the UK, Australia, US etc.) read Shakespeare with their own accent? YES! WHY? Because it is THE SAME language, just a different time period of the English language.
It's the same thing with Greek (whether Classical, Hellenistic, Koine, Byzantine, Modern and so forth). It's the same language that has a much longer life span than English. Languages are meant to be spoken, even if it's just for reading. Reconstructing the pronunciation of an x, y, z time period, complicates matters in an unnecessary way. Koine Greek is still used today in ALL services and Bible readings in the Greek Orthodox Church. Greek Orthodox people study Holy Scriptures from the original. It is pronounced the same as Modern Greek. No one understands Erasmian pronunciation or even acknowledges it for that matter.
Even if the Classical Greek pronunciation was indeed similar to the Erasmian one, the time of the Koine was so many years later, that it would definitely have changed. So, again, it is pointless to insist on it.
Have you heard of the lucian pronunciation (ruclips.net/video/Dt9z5Gvp3MM/видео.html here's a link to an explanation) and if so, what's your opinion?
Historical linguistics demonstrates that pronunciation changes are a common feature found in all languages (where evidence exists). But remember for something like Koine Greek, a language spoken widely, there would have been many variants at each period in time. Imagining that one pronunciation was definitively used throughout the regions is contrary to our experience of language. Variations are part of the reason for spelling variants. Even so, reasonable general knowledge about pronunciations can be gained by historical comparative studies. Because of these things it is unreasonable to be overly dogmatic about exact pronunciations in each and every case. Find a quality reconstruction and use it to help learn and enjoy a historical state of a language.
At my seminary, we are utilizing reconstructed koine. I wonder if there is a trend in the field as far as more or less schools teaching Erasmian pronunciation
Pronunciation from place to place in Greece is different the koine I'm talking about for example athenians Pronunciation is different than Central Greece
It's sad to see that there are sometimes quite heated disagreements on this topic. It seems to me that there are legitimate arguments both for and against all approaches - Modern Greek, reconstructed Koine, and Erasmian. For me it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to think of any one way as being "the correct way". The attempts to reconstruct Koine pronunciation from near the New Testament time are extremely interesting. But there are still things that we don't (and can't) know. Were there significant differences in pronunciation according to a person's social class or education? After all, this is true of many modern societies. Who should we seek to imitate - the elite scholar or the regular man/woman in the market place? Were a lot of people in Judea highly fluent in Koine _yet as a second language_ - in the same way that a lot of people in modern-day Israel are highly fluent in English as a second language? What implications would that have had for their pronunciation? And should we seek to imitate it? Even as regards native Koine speakers, we have to wonder whether there were significant regional variations? Did a speaker of Koine in Sicily or Syria have the same accent as one in Alexandria...? Again, the variations of pronunciation in modern languages such as Spanish, English or Portuguese must raise doubt whether Koine pronunciation would have been highly uniform? Inasmuch as there were regional differences, then which one would be "correct"...? There are just too many unknowns and uncertainties. So IMHO people should just do whatever works best _for them._
The TV show "Ask This Old House" features the show hosts traveling around the USA to people's homes to help them with repairs and home improvement projects. In one memorable episode the host and homeowner were about to dig a hole and the host said to put the dirt on the "top". The homeowner promptly took a shovel full of dirt an dumped it on top of the grass. The host asked why she didn't put the dirt on the "top" and the homeowner replied that she had. "No" the host says while pointing at a tarp spread out nearby on the ground, " On the top". Call it an accent if you like, but that same host pronounces "car" as "cah" and so on. I cringe to think what scholars 1000 years from now will recreate as the English pronunciation of the 21st century.
The advantage of learning modern Greek is that you have other aids to help you learn the language outside of a grammar book and seminary. But you also quickly learn that the pronunciation being taught is that of the people of Athens. So the idea that pronunciation of Greek has changed over the years and that multiple pronunciations would exist at the same time seems natural to me. It was an easy choice for me as I have not been to seminary and probably never will so the scale tips more in the direction of a modern pronunciation. It is no more "wrong" or "correct" than any other pronunciation, but it is easy for me to forget that Erasmian pronunciation makes more sense for some people and I'm sure the opposite applies as well.
Great thoughts here, thanks Steve!
It's Ka-. It's Cah if you're yelling at someone or exaggerating in a sarcastic way.
Although I am an Orthodox Christian, I favor the Erasmian pronunciation. The modern Greek pronunciation used by the Greek Orthodox Church in its liturgy, has just too many homonyms that render certain passages of the New Testament absolutely incomprehensible if read aloud, particularly I Corinthians 4:10-11. As a language pragmatist (I speak and have taught four modern foreign languages), I believe that it is indispensable to vocalize the language one is learning. Therefore, it is indispensable to settle on one pronunciation system. The Erasmian pronunciation closely follows the spelling of koine Greek; therefore it makes it easier to memorize koine Greek vocabulary and grammar, if a non-Greek speaker is learning koine Greek. Nonetheless, I also believe in scholarship in understanding the evolution of Greek pronunciation, but I see this as a more academic question. Most likely, even at the time the New Testament books were written, there was NO universally accepted pronunciation. The bottom line? For my own study, I use the Erasmian pronunciation to study koine Greek (and, if Iaught it, I would insist on it), but if I am called upon to read prayers in Greek in church, I use the modern Greek pronunciation, for the sake of my Greek Orthodox brothers and sisters. I agree with the presenter that this is relatively easy, if it is a matter of just a few well-known prayers, such as the Lord's prayer, the Trisagion and the paschal troparion.
Best to ask the Greeks They would know their pronunciation history
Hi Dr. Darryl I am glad you decided to tackle this issue, seems like there is a lot of unnecessary internet hot air around the subject. I have followed your Flashcards tutorial and find myself wincing every time you say the word “deck” because to my British ear it sounds like “dick” I don’t hold it against you cause you are a kiwi and I enjoy your accent, twang, decco (Diversity in English is color). I would be interested to find out true Erasmian pronunciation cause there seems to be Texan Erasmian and Cambridge Erasmian. For me the benefits of the Erasmian system are specific sounds for each letter to differentiate between them.
When I was beginning my Greek studies I took a modern Greek class which helped me with Alphabet and pronunciation then I was taught British Erasmian pronunciation and I adapted. Good to see that Dr. Plummer is including modern pronunciation in his grammar although his pronunciation seems to be illogical American Erasmian at times (Omicron as an “a” sound?) (Diversity in Greek is colour)
Thanks Steve! You are right. If we get away from the "big three" pronunciation approaches, with a world wide community with different native languages, local accents and dialects, the diversity of pronunciation we see today was very likely also evident even around the Mediterranean during the New Testament period. Thanks again!
Imagine to put an effort to understand ancient greek with your modern greek and add an allien erasmian p. to make your try more difficult
what most peoplevdont realize is that the pronunciation of koine differed depending on where you were in the empire. In the southern portion they spoke with more dipthongs and a drawl. in the middle western region they lengthened their upsilons which made their college friends make fun of them. they were too polite to complain about it. they also had a fondness for dishes with cream of mushroom soup. these they called hot dishes. they were actually casserols.
Eraamian pronunciation is not even close, we know this because many Latin words came from Koine Greek, modern Greek is closer. Actually that short sound is a schwa.
Well, the plot thickens ... I've come across 2 other teachers of koine Greek (both Erasmus, I think?) and one pronounces the second letter as beta, the other says veta; and that's just for starters 🤔
Can you make a video on Koine Greek alphabets with pronunciation?
Also can you direct me to any youtube videos for that?
So do I understand you to say that while the "real" Koine pronunciation is still debated, the Erasmian pronunciation of Koine Greek is what has been almost universally adopted by seminaries, colleges, and Universities teaching Koine Greek? And this way is the same as Mounce's way of pronunciation in BBG? Seems like the bigger distinction is between Koine and Modern Greek pronunciation, and that for practical purposes Erasmian = Koine pronunciation for most seminary and higher education and scholarly exchange in public audible discourse? If this is correct or incorrect, please let me know.
Yes, this is correct. Seminaries typically use Erasmian pronunciation, though professors are normally free to use whatever pronunciation they feel is best.
Only in North America and western Europe, in Greece, Eastern Europe, Egypt, and the Middle East the modern Greek pronunciation is ubiquitous. And that is also where you'll find the vast majority of spoken Koine Greek as it is still used as the liturgical language of the Orthodox Church and a variation on it (Katharevousa Greek, something of a hybrid between Koine and Modern Greek) is still used extensively for communication within the Orthodox patriarchates and universities.
really good video. ty friend!!!
I absolutely disagree, for language is in the mouth, not just in the head, and good scholarship demands we understand our authors as completely and accurately as possible.
Thanks Thom, so are you saying pronunciation is critical to proper understanding or are you arguing that a specific pronunciation is right? If the latter, which one and why? Thanks for watching!
@@bma Written Greek is like sheet music for the spoken culture of ancient Greek peoples. It is an essential given of good thinking to try our best to put ourselves into the place of the writers of that sheet music. And, having done that to the greatest extent that we can, to then try and understand. If we can understand how Greek was pronounced in the time of the writer of a particular piece of sheet music, so to speak, then we do less than we can if we ignore that. And how can we say we understand their sheet music if we do not sing it? My apologies for stretching the metaphor a little. I am trying not to set people's teeth at edge . Erasmus did the best he could. Perhaps many years from now, some AI will read sound waves embedded in microscopic layers of subterranean amphora and reproduce sounds last made by ancient Greek throats. But, until then, we must, as good thinkers and as those acting in good faith toward understanding, do everything we can to understand. Jesus and Paul and all the rest are singing meaning. They mean for you to hear, to incarnate, their meaning in the very biology of the hearer. As 1 John reads, we /heard/ and we /speak/. Let us try as best we can to do the same. And how can this not help us to not only learn a language, but to love it and be changed by it?
@Thom Chitttom: I agree with you. I think the brain is wired primarily for spoken language. Therefore I agree that pronunciation *is* important in learning a language. The right pronunciation as the text was actually pronounced at the time. Meaning each of Homer, Thucidides, Koine, and Modern Greek should be pronounced differently, because they are different languages. I posit that using a pronunciation system that actually fits the language will help the brain to learn that language.
@@ak1986 That's a great comment - το λακωνίζειν εστί φιλοσοφείν
I don't know why you are pronouncing the word "koine" wrong btw...
Letters "oi" make the sound "ee" in greek.
Koine is pronounced like "kee-nee".
I see this in all these videos trying to teach ancient greeks to people and i don't know why they can't get even the title right.
Koine greek is not pronounced k-oi-ne
It is pronounced "ki-ni".
I usually see this from American or English tutors that read from ancient scripts and they sound like aliens from mars when i hear them and cannot understand even a single word. And then i read the same script and i am amazed to how different they sound from what a native speaker of the language sounds. Yes we do not have a way to hear the ancient greeks speaking at their time, but we are certain that they do not sound like Americans from Louisiana trying to speak in modern "Greeklish" and at the same time (some of them) tell us that their pronunciation is closer to ancient Greeks than the language that Greeks speak now...
This is not a personal attack btw , the problem seems to be older tutors that got on their own way to try and pronounce words completely different from what a native greek speaker sounds today , then they stayed in their little bubble and got so completely cut off from what greek sounds and in the end it simply doesn't make sense what it sounds like.
I don't think this is an important issue. Nobody alive today was there to hear how ancient Greek sounded, and there were likely variations as you travelled between regions anyway because Koine was a second language for so many people and most people lived within 20 miles of their place of birth which meant that accents tended to be localised. So, thanks for your feedback, but just as pronounce things different in English because I'm a kiwi, I'll probably sound out Greek different too. And that's OK. No doctrine depends on my pronunciation, and if it varies to modern pronunciation, no native Koine speaker will have a problem with it anyway. 😉
Actually, this is kind of the point of this video.
Thanks for this video. I agree with you :) I teach at Polis using the, let’s say, wannabe reconstructed/Erasmian pronunciation (I am aware that I’ll never speak as native Ancient Greek...) But there are students that use other pronunciations. I don’t like to impose anything, I just let me use whatever they want but perhaps for the others students is confusing, I think it’s more useful for communication if one community tries to stick to the same way of speaking. I think also, as you mentioned, that it’s more important to learn verbal aspect, the cases and so on. You can always improve your pronunciation later.
Thanks for your thoughtful response.
Greek speakers refer to "Koine" as "Greek in cowboy boots".
That is interesting, I never heard that expressing, cool!
Huh?
I'm Greek and never heard of that expression either (also I'm assuming you meant some specific way of pronouncing "koine" otherwise it can't make any sense. "Koine" is just a term referring to the Greek that was spoken around the time of Augustus)
well thats texan greek. try to o oikos kai oi oikoi. in erasmian way. It sounds like a texan riding on a horse and yelling to you. ergo texan greek or cowboy boots.
Can you get the Septuagint in Greek and the dead sea scrolls in Hebrew, then look at city and personal names as the Jews who translated it in those days would have gotten the translation as close as possible to their sounds. We should be able to figure out what the Hebrew vowels sounded like even though not written as well as Greek. Consents don't seem to change over time.
Is it not certain that in all the Greek speaking cities in any time in antiquity, there were differences in pronunciation? Surely the vowels were pronounced differently in different cities just as English vowels are pronounced differently today in different cities, even within the same country. (Remember Shibboleth in Hebrew?) I prefer to use a pronunciation which distinguishes the vowels without proving how much or how little itacism there was in Paul's pronunciation. I am not about to go the modern Greek itacism route. Use a pronunciation which distinguishes the vowels. I am not going to do the literal "length" on the vowels, like holding omega 2 beats & omicron 1 beat, as my ear is not tuned to literal length distinctions. But I can cheat and pronounce omicron as a Spanish o & omega by adding a w sound to it as in the English o. Eta I pronounce as the e in Spanish señor. I will not pronounce ai as epsilon. Chi I pronounce at the x in Mexico or ch in the scot word Loch.
Pronunciation is literally the main reason I've never committed myself to learning Greek because I don't even actually know if I'm truly "learning Greek".
For us who are learning Greek to be better students of scripture, it really isn't much of an issue, so don't let it hold you back! 😀
Thank you for making the video. I am a little disappointed, because I thought I was going to see what the different pronunciation systems were.
I think some of you guys forget what it was like to not know Greek. I am just starting. I want a pronunciation system that aligns with the spelling. Otherwise, learning to say the word does not help much in trying to memorize words. I want a system that is phonetic. I want to hold out the long vowels, etc. That way, when I memorize how to say a word, I pretty much learned how to spell it, especially if I throw in a pitch accent. This reinforces vocabulary learning. I'm learning words full of iota sounds, but somehow I am supposed to be able to produce a written word with dipthong and multiple letters for those iota sounds. I want something that matches the spelling. I think that is Erasmian.
But I am confused about thetas, chis, and gammas, as to whether they were ever stops or were just fricatives, and even the beta is pronounced. But I want to stick with one 'official' pronunciation. I think Erasmic is closest to the letters, which is what I was hoping to find out watching this video, along with an actual argument for which one was best based on some scholars opinion.
If I went with modern Greek, then I am learning a language with an awful spelling system that doesn't match the spoken language... like English. And that is a hard language for non-native speakers to have to learn. Spanish, on the other hand, pretty much matches the letters. If you know the system, you can read it out loud.
I agree. The Erasmian pronunciation is stable and easy. No matter how much others hate it, the fact is that Erasmian is close to whatever reconstructed pronunciation they are using.
“Definate” (Aussi), “definit” (Merikun) :P
Honestly, why would anyone learn Erasmian pronunciation? It's completely artificial 🤷♂️
you must not have kept up with current linguistic developments. I have read that most all current linguists have concluded that Erasmus was wrong. Scholars have reconstructed the way Alexander the Great spoke Greek, and remarkably it is similar to modern pronunciation. Also, it is clear that the Pslams and other poetic books of the bible can not be sung or chanted using the Eruasmian pronunciation, but flows in sing-song-like poetry using the modern Greek pronunciation. time to give up on Erusmus, and reject his ideas as a footnote of history. you will not quite understand how so much of the Bible was actually meant to be chanted out loud in front of a congregation, and therefore miss out on an important insight of how the author had intended their passages be used during worship and as liturgical chant. In other words, the author's intent as to how their scriptures was meant to be used is as much as important as knowing what the words actually mean. The words of a love song is understood differently than, for example, the terms of a marriage contract, even if they use similar words.
Did you realise you varied your pronunciation between "pronounciation" and "pronunciation"?
Has anyone ever decided what the "official" English pronunciation is for last year? Or the year before? English is the most spoken language in the world - of course, most of the time as a second language. Obviously there are thousands of different pronunciations of English on any given day!
I think it's kind of ridiculous for anyone to claim any kind of "official" pronunciation for Koine Greek in the first century, when it was used over a vast area of the world. I can almost "guarantee" that there were many varied pronunciations.
And it's even possible that the various early church leaders had different accents among themselves. They were from different areas. And back then, with less intercommunication, there must have been greater differences in the accents.
However, it would be nice for our modern theological community to agree to a common Koine Greek pronunciation, simply so that we can stop arguing amongst ourselves, which seems so unchristian-like. ;-)
It sounds barbaric for us Greeks to hear the word "κοινή / common" as "ko-ee-ne". (Οι / oi) was and will be a diphtong and sounds as ee. So the word is : "keenee" (stress on the last e).
Erasmus asked a Greek to tell him how to read the letters, because he wanted to translate the Bible.
The Greek mocked him and told him other things than the truth. But that stayed in the books and that
barbaric accent passed. At the end of his life Erasmus - after he had spoken to serious Greeks
Byzantine grammarians - admitted his mistake and formally apologized. But the damage was already done. Greek has never dramatically changed its pronunciation and the way it is spoken. Besides, those who have kept the language for so many thousands of years know better.
The Greek language was created and codified over thousands of years of observing nature and human activity and slowly each word gives the exact meaning of the object or ideal (the signifier is related to what is pointed out and not random words that will be called everything). This development, when it came time to move on to the written record - and after the first attempts at representations, followed the rules of spoken language. Thus were discovered the forms of letters that could reproduce everything around us in the best possible way. No letter is random and of course none comes from a different language. How could that be? When we open our mouths, we hear A (the letter shows above, the man looks up). B(V-eng), as one can easily see, represents the blast, the sound of B(V) > BBBB (VVVVouou), so the North (cold wind) is written with B(V). The exact same rule applies to all letters, but that's not
intelligence
(Ιδέα-Ιdea, which passes like an arrow from the mind). The double "ει" and "οι" were created to represent the long "ee" that existed in the spoken language and acquired spelling rules that we cannot analyze here. "οι" is always used in the suffixes of the masculine plural and in words that are related to something that surrounds us or that are related to human activity, eg. (οίνος-wine, οίκος-house, οίδα-I know, ο οποίος-which, (here "o" means the circle in which we act).
"Ει" is a long "ee" and combines "ε" and "ι" because "ε" has a close phonetic relationship with "ι-ee".
The "Ο-o" and the "Ω-ω" differ for the same reasons. The omega is a long o (oo), it always enters the endings of the verbs and the endings of the plural of all things or gernes e.g. (των ανθρώπων-of men, των παιδιών-of the children, των πόλεων-of the cities, των σκύλων-of the dogs, etc).
The "ο=circle" in everything that bothers us and is related to property, energy, etc. (κόσμος-world,
πόλεμος-war, τόπος-place, δρόμος-road, έξοδος-exit and so much more).
In closing, I will repeat that every letter and especially the many "ee" have to do with the root of each
word, so that we can understand what we are talking about to the one who reads us.
It's not about being a purist, Koine Greek remains the liturgical language of the Orthodoxy Church, it's not dead, it's still a spoken language and to deliberately butcher the pronunciation (not to merely mispronouncing words because you're learning or having a foreign accent, but to intentionally butcher it) is, quite frankly, rude and disrespectful. It also serves to establish a clear divide between Greek speakers and learners in Greece, Eastern Europe, the Middle East, and North Africa on one hand and Western Europe and North America on the other hand, ensuring there is minimal interaction between the two. And, no, pedagogical purposes is not much of an excuse; it would be like teaching Modern English using the Middle English pronunciation from before the great vowel shift because it makes English spelling easier to learn, it's absurd.
You don't think that there are pronunciation differences between the Greek Orthodox and Russian Orthodox churches? Do Orthodox churches use modern pronunciation? Isn't this different to Koine pronunciation to some extent? Where do you draw the line and why?
@@bma Well, Russian Orthodox Church services are not done in Greek, they are done in Church Slavonic, a constructed liturgical language probably most closely related to Old Bulgarian. However, all the Russians I've encountered who have learned Ancient/Koine/Patristic Greek in Russia have learned it using the modern Greek pronunciation.
The Church (along with most academics in Greece, Eastern Europe, and the Middle East) does use the modern Greek pronunciation, not the reconstructed Koine pronunciation; reconstructed pronunciations are more of an Western Europe/Anglo-Saxon thing. I also think it is important to use the modern Greek pronunciation if you're ever going to use the language liturgically or read Greek in the Churches (and I'm certain pretty much every Bishop would insist on this). However, if you're never going to use the language liturgically, I think the revised Koine is a reasonable compromise between the biases of western academia (using reconstructed pronunciations from the time of the text) and the practice of the Greeks (using one pronunciation for all Greek); at least it's not offensive to the ears and doesn't come across as mocking like the Erasmian pronunciation. Furthermore, in practice, it sounds awful close to modern Greek, especially if you're not accustom to listening for vowel length (and most modern Greek and English speakers are not, as this is no longer a feature in either language).
The Erasmian pronunciation is simply not a historical pronunciation of Greek, it was never used and it doesn't even sound Greek; as I said before, it comes across as mocking the language. Though it would be a bit of an anachronism for Koine Greek, if you are interested in a reconstruction of 6th century BC (or possibly even earlier, depending on which scholarship you go with) Greek pronunciation, Luke Ranieri over on the polyMATHY RUclips channel has come up with a reconstruction he calls his 'Lucian Pronunciation.' But even that, though from over 500 years before the New Testament, 200 years before Alexander the Great, and before all the 'ee' sounds started to converge, it sounds far more authentically Greek than any Erasmian pronunciation I have ever encountered.
Though I'm personally biased towards just using the modern pronunciation like the Greeks for reasons of uniformity and though I suspect some sounds would be difficult for a native English speaker compared to just using Modern Greek pronunciation, especially due to features like vowel length, and while I think this would be more acceptable in an Attic Greek context than a Koine Greek context, the video on it does present a lot of interesting information on the history of Greek Pronunciation that might help inform your views:
ruclips.net/video/Dt9z5Gvp3MM/видео.html
As someone who studies many different languages (living ones and otherwise), I simply cannot endure the Erasmian pronunciation. When I hear Christian scholars speak Greek that way I can hardly take them seriously because they sound so static and unnatural. It often feel that seminaries are basically scholarly echo chambers where everyone just follows along with what they are told, even if it sounds completely silly. I say this as someone who seriously thought about going to seminary back in the day, but I am glad I didn't, because at this age, I realize I would not have fit in well because I am not very good at just following along just because it's the way someone tells me it should be.
This is quite an old video now. I've changed my position since then. Here's the update: ruclips.net/video/cWSFbN9_Dh4/видео.html&lc
erasmian pronunciation always just sounds wrong
reconstructed koine pronunciation is fine I guess, but I don't see any advantage of that over modern pronunciation; plus, we have the advantage of being able to listen to native speakers
My problem with the modern pronunciation is that η, ι, υ, ει and οι all sound the same (ee)! For example, this makes the first- and second-personal plural pronouns sound the same!
Thanks for subscribing and watching! I appreciate what you're saying here.
you forgot υι
We have the same thing in English too: I, eye, pie, why --- different spellings but phonetically all sound the same
Ανθέλληνες use the Dutch Erasmian pronunciation.
Is not a big issue because the purpose of mastering biblical Greek is one of understanding what you are reading instead of speaking. Unless you move to Greece and want to talk to natives speakers in a daily basis.
I tend to agree, the NT is basically prose not poetry, stuff like vowel length and other phonemic value specifics are not that important for understanding the text personally as a reader. Learning to stick to a rigid pronunciation system would only be important if you plan to learn to sing greek ecclesiastical hymns or attend Greek Orthodox liturgy but for the simple purpose of studying the NT text at your home any pronunciation scheme you choose will do fine
Learning to speak does tend to ingrain comprehension further though
The Erasmian translation is the worst thing that happened to the Greek language. It's repugnant at best. Modern Greek is the closest thing to Greek than everything else.
Hello brother!
Depending on translation - the message of Acts 22:16 seems different. How would you translate that verse from greek?
how does the greek church pronounce greek?
The Greek Church uses the modern pronunciation for at least a thousand years now.
If it ain't said with a Texas accent.... it's done wrong.
A Modern Greek teacher told me that we know Ancient Greek pronunciation was different from Modern Greek. “Sheep say ‘BAY, BAY’ not ‘VEE, VEE’”. (Beta-eta)
gg
@@sleeexs 1508, Aldus Manutius
Por meio da crítica textual, descobriu-se o fragmento de um manuscrito antigo, atribuído ao cômico Aristófanes, que grafa o balido da ovelha como: "βη... βη... βη". Seguindo a ortoépia sugerida por Reuchlin e do grego moderno, o balido da ovelha seria "vi...vi...vi", enquanto, na erasmiana "bē...bē...bē".
But the point is beta had already changed to v during the koine period
"Eta"(H) was used to mark aspiration originally, a usage which survived in Latin (and modern english) it was only repurposed as a "long" epsilon around the end of the 5th century BC before succumbing to iotacism at some point around the time the NT was being written
no. koine greek is as dissimilar from modern greek as it is from high attic. lol
So just look after romeika or rumca in the rural area of Trabzon in modern eastern black Sea turkey. There u can see the pronunciation of the attic dialect from 800 b.c. in nowadays life! Make your conclusion of this. There was a whole research conducted by the cambridge university by Dr Sitaridou. There is a short trailer on youtube. Και is ke!
Classical pronunciation and you refer to Homer? LoL Inacurate. Im out.
Thanks for watching! Farewell!
1:33 - I’m not convinced that the ‘Modern Pronunciation camp’ is the single, most prevalent group of Greek enthusiasts who can be reasonably characterized as ‘purists’, looking down on others.
I think that description is only apt with respect to native Greek speakers (especially within Greece itself). It’s practically non-existent outside of Greece; at least, if we’re talking about Greek studies in seminaries or any other academic institutions. It’s hardly a blip on the radar really.
Can anyone tell me where Reuchlinian pronunciation of Ancient Greek is actually taught outside of Greece? Can anyone name at least one institution? One professor who actively implements the system?
In my experience, all sides of the pronunciation debate tend to take dogmatic positions with respect to their chosen system. Open mindedness seems to be restricted to Latin enthusiasts.
Erasmian, Restored Classical, Restored Koine… those are the 3 dominant systems. That’s the battle ground. They may be somewhat accepting of people on the other end of the tripartite spectrum. Erasmian probably gets more flack from the other members of the triad. But, on the whole, they all tend to deem Reuchlinian pronunciation impractical, at best, or cacophonous, at worst.
Just have a listen to it:
ruclips.net/video/Pa8i-F04PKQ/видео.html
Thanks for you thoughtful comment! Perhaps you're right and I overstated my case. I agree with you that we often draw battle-lines unnecessarily. I'm convinced that some of this comes down to our own uncertainty and fear of being wrong - which is itself a major problem. I hope that by recognizing the differences we can grow in humility and learn to listen and interact better. Thanks again for your comment!
Blah blah blah. Just get to your pronunciation.