NT Greek Pronunciation: Why I'm switching from Erasmian
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- Опубликовано: 7 май 2024
- Book mentioned in this video
Kantor: A Short Guide to the Pronunciation of New Testament Greek
Logos: bma.to/kantor
Amazon: amzn.to/3LE1SMu
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I made the switch to Modern Greek pronunciation years ago. I did it by studying Modern Greek. Learning both forms of Greek has a synergistic effect. Your Koine will be strengthened by exposure to a living form of the language and your Modern will be strengthened by a knowledge of the Ancient language that is the progenitor of the modern language.
I donot have to switch because i never used Erasmian pronunciation. As a child in the 1960 s i learnt Greek, both modern and ecclesiastical, from a Greek Orthodox priest. Thus i learnt to read the Holy Scriptures and other Greek texts with the actual pronunciation, used by Greeks themselves. Basically, at the time of our Blessed Lord and His Apostles, Greek pronunciation was already very close to Later Byzantine and to present-day Greek pronunciation.
You should be teaching us then!!! Good stuff
That's merely speculation.
I think the best argument for modern pronunciation is that it enables one to listen to the wonderful complete recording of the Koine Greek New Testament by Dr Spiros Zodhiates which he narrates using modern pronunciation. I also believe that using modern pronunciation helps us treat Koine Greek as a living language to be spoken and read naturally rather than as a classical language to be decoded. Modern Greek is a very beautiful language and Koine Greek, when read with modern pronunciation, has that same beauty and rhythm.
Where is this audio GNT available?
So happy to hear that you’re switching. You’re an amazing teacher and scholar.
As an Eastern Orthodox Christian, we literally cringe at Erasmian and if someone sang a service and butchered the language they destroy the flow of the service.
From your perspective, pronunciation is no big deal, however.. the Greek Orthodox Christians would strongly disagree.
In the Greek semanaries we agree that Greeks know their own language and much respect to you for seeing that pronunciation is exemplified through the spelling mistakes.
Also, when we read transliterated Greek words into Slavonic language (which is old Bulgarian) we know with more certainty what the old pronunciation was.
In the Orthodox Church of America (where I am a tonsured chanter), we use the 3 languages regularly.
If I may make a recommendation, I suggest you read (if you haven’t already) the Divine Liturgy of st Basil in the original Greek. You will glimpse the glory and majesty of the Anaphora and the theological significance of ancient Orthodox Christian worship. ☦️
Χριστός Ανέστη! Христос Воскресе!
Aληθώς ανέστη!
I'm also Orthodox. I just can't listen to Erasmian. It's horrifying.
@@DavidSinghiserabsolutely grating on my ears. lol
Western Christians , particularly Protestants, spend much time and energy learning Greek, but I’ve hardly heard them reference the Greek Orthodox.
Nonetheless, this channel is wonderful and very helpful with amazing resources. Much respect and love for their efforts
I don't know how true this is, but i read that "Erasmian" doesn't even represent how Erasmus pronounced it, let alone a native speaker from any time period
It’s the Latin phoneticization .
Hence β became Beta instead of Vita, Δ became Delta instead of THelta … and the rest.
Also… all the Greek diphthongs are butchered in Erasmian.
Erasmian, only.
As an Eastern Christian who speaks "Κοινή Ελληνική και Νέα Ελληνική" daily, I am grateful that you are using your platform to educate Western Christians about the potential of using historical Greek pronunciation instead of a reconstructed version. Kudos, my friend! I believe it would be great for the Biblical language to become universal in pronunciation. As a former academic, I used to find it challenging to understand Western professors who used Greek during their lectures.
Great video as always. I started learning Modern Greek six months ago and it just naturally influenced my pronunciation so I made the switch from Erasmian. Honestly it felt like Koine made the change from a dead language to a living language for me. I’m a BMA member and in my cohort we have Erasmian, modern and reconstructed speakers and so far there haven’t been any issues.
Thanks. It's very possible to coexist quite happily with different pronunciation methods, just like we can with different spoken accents.
When I was first taking Koine Greek in college, the teacher taught Erasmian. I eventually shared some of my new Greek knowledge with my dad, who did not know Greek. After a time he chuckled and said "A lot of these words sound funny".
Exactly! Even someone with no Greek knowledge can recognize the silly sound of Erasmian pronunciation. I wish that I could get behind Erasmian for pedagogical purposes, but I just can't tolerate the silliness of it and so I have also been switching.
Best to you in your journey toward a more natural, authentic sound.
Erasmian, only.
@@christopherskipp1525Are you Dutch 😂?
@paulrudiger2552 I've never dived into ancestral research.
@paulrudiger2552 I suppose Erasmus could be an ancestor.
@@ColinHurkett I never found it funny sounding, but then many opinions involve a subjective factor. Koine isn't like doing long division.
Φίλε, σε συγχαίρω! “Friend, I congratulate you!” May many more follow your stance of switching from an un-Greek sound system to the living historical sounds of “Modern” Greek. A wise decision, indeed! -Philemon Zachariou
I am always willing to learn something new. Looking forward to seeing and hearing the difference between the two.
I've used historical reconstruction-pronunciation for a year now and I like it better than Erasmian. The pronunciation comes much more naturally and it flows nicely and not so choppy as Erasmian often does. I also fin it easier to understand the Greek root of some words in my native language Swedish.
congratulations, join the club! To give an analogy: Let's say that an aspiring playwrite from a country that has virtually none, like in a Swahili speaking country, wants to study on Shakespear. He should learn ENGLISH, not "shakespearean" english. A modern english speaker can EASILY read Shakespear and there is the added benefit from learning how to speak to a modern english speaker. Obviously everyone would say he should just learn English. We should just learn Greek and Hebrew, people in each of those languages can read their Bibles and you will be able to as well.
This 👆
Επιτέλους φίλε μου ξύπνησες, μπράβο! Εὖγε! Λοιπὸν οὖν, ἀδελφέ, ἐξηγέρθης ἐξ ὕπνου! καὶ ἐν τούτῳ χαίρω, ἀλλὰ καὶ χαρήσομαι.
It's very similar to the Greek in the Greek bible. Very understandable
I learned Erasmian many years ago, at a Protestant seminary. I subsequently converted to Greek Orthodoxy. In our Church, the Bible is read and services are done with Modern Greek Pronunciation (the original Biblical text is read, not a Modern Greek Translation). And I subsequently married and my husband is a native speaker of Modern Greek. He can read the Koine Bible nearly as easily as I can read the KJV. And, our daughter is learning Greek - both Modern and Koine - with modern pronunciation. I long ago decided that Erasmian was made up by an Italian who perhaps never met a Greek, nor did he have access to recordings. It makes a lot more sense to me to trust the pronunciation of native speakers, than to try to theorize about how things might have been 2000 years ago. Also Modern Greek pronunciation is useful in Church and social situations.
I switched from Erasmian to Modern pronunciation in about 2015. It can be done, but it is frustrating at first. Time and practice will get you to the destination. Most frustrating are the Erasmian advocates who insist they are correct. I allow students to use either system in my readings classes and we seem to communicate pretty well.
I'd say the resistance of some Erasmian users to adapting to Modern Greek pronunciation is due to the challenge it presents to unlearn and re-learn it. It takes time and effort and for some this is off-putting. This makes it all the more impressive when people make the switch to modern pronunciation!
No big deal either way as the focus is on reading both LXX and NT in Greek. Logos Bible software has been helpful as you can select which you want to hear it in for pronunciation. I was quite hung up when I was learning alphabet and it was rough for the first two modules of BMA BG. It’s better now, not perfect but better.
I'm happy you are making the switch. Any pronunciation works. I learned Erasmian, and was taught to use the pronunciation that your teacher uses, so that's what I did. Afterwards, I started learning modern, but at the end of the day If I can hear and understand what the reader is saying, then that's all good with me. The meaning matters, unless pronunciation changes the meaning. As a non-English speaker, I use my native language to pronounce English (if there is such a thing), and I do the same for Greek too. Some modern Greek pronunciations in fact sound a lot more like my native language.
With that said, I don't think the majority of Greek scholars will be persuaded by one source, however good and well researched it may be.
This is exciting news! I have been slowly changing over my pronunciation from Erasmian to a Koine Era pronunciation as well. One of the largest benefits I have discovered is actually one with an apologetic bent. So many of the copying errors in the extant manuscripts can be shown to simply be spelling errors when transcribed from an oral reading.
Just joined Biblical Mastery Academy’s Beginning Greek course and I am SUPER excited to hear we’ll be using modern Greek instead of Erasmian.
I am using the modern pronunciation for all forms of Greek; however, Classical Greek is prosodic and this is the reason accents are part of the spelling in Greek in general.
One thing that I have found super helpful in switching is listening to Benjamin Kantor's audio recordings of him reading the NT and other writings from the Koine period. These are all on his website!
After learning some Hebrew I’ve noticed just how helpful it is for each letter to have its own sound. Many of my Hebrew vocabulary errors are due to letters having the same sound (or no sound as in aleph and ayin). So I’m going to stick with Erasmian to aid vocabulary acquisition.
I think you have made a very wise decision.
While I respect the meticulous work behind all the various reconstructed pronunciations of Ancient Greek, to me at least, they come across as artificial and forced when put into practice. Language relies on actually hearing sounds and repeating them, the human brain is wired to do so. To extrapolate the sounds of human speech, exactly, with all the subtle nuances and inflections and tones, from written texts alone is next to impossible. So, one can never know exactly how accurate he/she is being to the original pronunciation when trying to use one of these reconstructed phonologies. One must constantly look over one's shoulder, so to speak, doubting whether or not that eta or omega was too long, that acute accent was too high, that grave accent too low. How can you be sure without a native speaker or voice recording to correct you on such subtle yet critical details? I understand we have evidences from various ancient texts outlining, for example, the difference between long vowels and short vowels, the nature of voiced/unvoiced plosives and aspirates, pitch accent and meter. However, these only paint a rough picture, like disconnected pieces of a puzzle, they are simply not enough to complete said puzzle and fully restore the voices of people like Homer, Socrates, Plato and Plutarch. In my humble opinion, I think it is wiser to leave the data where they lie - in written print or carved stone etchings - appreciate them, consider them, but take them no further than that. Instead, we can use the one phonology of Greek that we have available, the one used consistently amongst all native Greek speakers, the one we have countless audio recordings of, the only verifiably correct system of pronunciation at least for one (quite ancient - at least 1000 years) period of time in the language's vast history: Modern Greek.
What an inspiring and heartwarming announcement! Thank you for your bravery and intellectual curiosity. You're setting a great example for your followers. Please ignore the haters, as there will surely be many of them. I look forward to all of the content you'll produce in the future, featuring Modern Greek pronunciation (when you've gotten better at it).
Personally, I have no qualms about continuing to pronounce "Koiné" in the Erasmian fashion when speaking English (not when speaking Greek!). When referring to the name of the "Hellenistic Koiné" Greek dialect or the linguistic phenomenon named after it (koinéization), it doesn't make much sense to pronounce it like /kiní/ in English, IMO. It still makes Greeks cringe, even in English. But it's a standard anglicized term by now, just like "Hellenistic" (with the initial aspirated /h/ sound). And yet no Greek insists that foreigners pronounce "Hellenistic" like "*Ellenistic". I also pronounce "not one iota" in the English fashion, because /yota/ would sound really weird.
Regarding the pronunciation of ταυ in Modern Greek, the 't' in "tool" is not really aspirated in standard English with an audible puff of air. So, there's no need to go to any effort to distinguish that 't' sound in Modern Greek pronunciation. That is only an issue if you're targeting reconstructed Attic Greek where θ is aspirated and τ is not. The English /t/ sound is close enough not to worry about it. The voicing of τ after nasals (sandhi) does take some getting used to, especially when ντ gets pronounced either as /nd/ or just /d/. You can always go with the former /nd/ for speaking/reading Ancient Greek, even though you'll hear Greeks saying /d/ for ντ sometimes, especially when it's required in Modern Greek.
γάμμα does not actually have the hard /g/ sound in Modern Greek, unless it's combined, as in γκ /g/ or γγ /ng/. In Modern Greek it's a fricative /ɣ/. And before front vowels /e/ and /i/ the γάμμα becomes a "yod" (voiced palatal approximate), not a /j/ sound. So, you definitely got it a little bit wrong in your attempts to pronounce γενέσθαι and ἐγένετο here, because they don't have /j/ sounds. :( But you'll get the hang of it. Don't give up!
Awesome news! I love all your videos and I’m sure you will have a fun journey learning new pronunciation conventions. Compared to how hard learning Greek can be learning more than one pronunciation convention is quite easy but can take a few days to nail down. While there are many arguments for the use of modern pronunciation I don’t like that option because it creates too many words that are pronounced the same even though they are spelled differently… homonyms/homophones . When it comes to Erasmian I don’t like it because it’s not a historic pronunciation, no one ever used it “as is” and as a result I prefer reconstructed Koine / Buth Koine for scripture and reconstructed Attic or one of the many variants of Lucian for secular material.
On a side note the Pompeii variant of Lucian pronunciation is very close to Erasmian and easy to transition to for Erasmian speakers but has the advantage of being an actual historical pronunciation.
Thanks for the video!
I am a pronunciation geek, and a few years ago, I switched from Erasmian pronunciation due to the work of scholars like Randall Buth who have been working in reconstructing Koine Greek pronunciation from looking at common spelling mistakes through the ages and other evidences from Koine Greek texts. I now lean more towards the Antiochene Lucian pronunciation, which would pronounce Koine as κυne: (using IPA pronunciation symbols). This is based on a system of pronunication that divides Koine pronunciation into multiple main dialects depending on the region the text is from. The Bible was written mostly (if not completely) by people from the region around Israel and Pisidian Antioch, so the Antiochene dialect of Lucian pronunciation would be the pronunciation to go to. Also, there are problems that come from using modern pronunciation on Koine Greek largely in part due to the greater amount of iotacism in Modern Greek than there actually was in the Levant at the time of Jesus.
So happy you are switching! YAY!!
Nice one. I appreciate your humility in learning new things. Me too. I switched recently.
K.E.P can be used effectively when you use it as a living language in a Communicative Language Teaching Approach.
καλον εργον!
What's KEP?
@@christopherskipp1525 Koine Era Pronunciation.
@@theoglossa OK, thank you.
Woohoo. Amen, brother! Stoked!
I’ve got the New Testament on audio read by Spiros Zodhiates. Very helpful to hear it read by a native Greek, and read with feeling at that.
I find it interesting, but I am not sure about switching. I may in the future, but I want to have what I know down first. The folks at BMA are doing a great job and it is well worth the money and effort for anyone who is serious about the Biblical languages and Bible study.
Don't rush the decision to switch. There is plenty else to learn and you can always switch later. Keep taking small, consistent steps toward mastery!
I was taught modern pronunciation and so have never learned Erasmian well. I later learned a reconstructed Attic pronunciation and the Buthian pronunciation (which I modified with Kantor's book). I do try to emphasize pronunciation, because I found it helps to treat the language as a real language and remember vocabulary and grammar. It also helps understand later interpretation and the transmission of the text.
I can switch between the pronunciations rather easily now. The trick I found was to read a passage aloud in a pronunciation I'm learning and read it back to back with ones I know, record it, and see where I borked it. I also would roll dice on which order so that I had to keep it separate. It helps learning a new pronunciation happen rather quickly...but I know my pronunciation has that thick TX accent and, so, really sucks. I'm still working on some quirks, because I have a lazy tongue.
Some things, like the aspirated tau, I set at a low priority since in the Koine and modern it didn't have a phonemic difference...and I found I couldn't make the differences consistently with the reconstructed Attic and was forced to fudge. It's like children, have to pick the fights and work on what you can at one time. So I focused most on broad consonant similarity vowel similarity.
Whatever pronunciation people use, they should be sticklers on how they apply it (just not with others). It does help learning.
I’m learning the Modern Greek language from a tutor, largely because I thought the Erasmian I was exposed to was slightly offensive. There is even one teacher who calls it “North American pronunciation.” Once I get some Modern Greek under my belt (I’ve been studying Modern Greek for a year and a half now) I’ll start learning Biblical Greek again. The challenge there will be to keep Modern and Koine Greek languages differentiated.
I think what you’re doing is wonderful, and some learners may even be attracted to learning Modern Greek because of it. Also, I don’t think most of your students will find the transition that difficult, since it’s only pronunciation. I wish you all good luck! (Also, some people seem to know a lot more about this stuff than they should!) 😊
Erasmian, only.
Well done! Your decision to study Modern as well as Ancient Greek is to be commended. You will find the vast majority of the Modern vocabulary is the same as in Ancient, which allows for a deeper understanding of the language's evolution over millenia. Best of luck with it all! 👏
I saw Stephen Hacker's video a while ago and agreed with that. I switched over a year ago having read C Campbell's book,who had good arguments for modern pronunciation.
Good! I’m glad you are switching. It adds even more credibility to BMA Imo.
So, my wife and I decided to learn Greek last week and we just purchased the “beginning with New Testament Greek” grammar you had suggested by Merkle and Plummer.
He teaches in Erasmian but his videos are extremely helpful.
Any resource suggestions for learning the modern Greek or can I stick with this one?
There are lots of resources available on the internet for modern pronunciation. I've just pinned a comment on that video to indicate that we've now created our own beginning Greek course which I think will be easier for those who are not in seminary to work through. Feedback so far is good. You can find out why I created my own grammar at ruclips.net/video/XRB2XJedfDI/видео.html, and check out progress on it here: ruclips.net/video/PQlm-FHAZ9Y/видео.html and here: ruclips.net/video/qxHJKO7YdQQ/видео.html
I've been persuaded by Kantor also and am trying to switch pronunciation. Meanwhile, I am also learning modern Greek, so I'm totally struggling between Koine, Erasmian, and Modern.
Yeah, I have read that book (and others) and have decided to switch from Erasmian to modern Greek (historical Greek). I have been listening to the Greek NT read in modern Greek by a native speaker.
Wanting to get started learning and have been going back on forth on which to learn. I decided to just get started with erasmian so I don’t wait forever and do nothing. I would’ve preferred reconstructed but found for free/cheap resources for erasmian
Don't be afraid to spend money on your learning. If its worth doing well, its worth paying for whatever you need to help you do it well!
It would probably be good to learn a more accurate pronunciation. At moment, I find it helpful to pronounce every sound. Helps with spelling. I do want to check out the books on the Greek pronunciation. Sound interesting.
Ugh...I learned Erasmian pronunciation, I read Benjamin's short book and am convinced of his arguments, but I now I don't want to switch because it would be a lot of work...
I know exactly what you mean. It is hard to switch!
As someone who studies koine and Attic i have a different pronunciation to separate ι, ει, οι, and η
I am not totally opposed to switching from Erasmian, I just honestly can’t think of a good reason to for myself. If anything, I can think of at least one reason not to, that being all the homophones in the modern / reconstructed schemes. I would be interested to understand better what specific benefits there would be to switching if anybody has any thoughts.
In modern pronunciation ἡμεῖς and ὑμεῖς would be pronounced the same. In Buth Koine it’s very close to modern but η and υ have distinct sounds like in Erasmian so such problems don’t come up. Same with all variants of Lucian. Modern is nice though in that there are actual living native speakers to listen to so one can emulate their accents and as a result it ends up sounding like a real language whereas many people speak Erasmian in such a laid back way that it doesn’t sound like a real language . Obviously pronunciation is probably the least important thing when learning and reading biblical Greek but still if a person is spending years and countless hours in this endeavor one might as well do their best to actually “sound legit” as well. Anyhow, thanks again! Looking forward to your future videos and hearing how your journey goes ❤ PS I have both of Ben’s new books on this subject and they are indeed great books!
In your language is the same Greek, trip, peach
I would again suggest the channel polymathy if you want to hear the pronunciation of Ancient Greek instead of just reading it.
Kantor uses boothian pronunciation, which is not 1st century pronunciation from what I’ve read. It’s trying to find a period of time in the history of koine that matches onto modern pronunciation without causing problems between words like υμεις and ημεις. (Since they’re exactly the same in modern pronunciation).
I encourage you to read Kantor's small book. It is helpful and I think argues for first century pronunciation well.
Hey! Great video! I’ve also made a similar switch in the last couple years.
But a question: Kantor’s pronunciation is similar but distinct from modern. You said you’re switching to modern though? Why not Kantor’s? I ended up learning both so I could use more listening resources, so I’m just curious!
Good question. There are not many differences between modern and reconstructed, and using modern provides consistency with the modern language. There are also several different versions of reconstructed, so using modern opens the path to learn from native speakers without getting into a battle about which precise form of reconstructed we should use. Finally, even around the Mediterranean at the time of the NT writings, there were different pronunciation methods, so there is room for movement anyway. I don't want to get hung up on being overly pedantic about which reconstructed pronunciation is exact. There are more important things to focus on than what level of precision in pronunciation is right, especially given our focused is on helping people read the word of God in the original language, not speak the language. Modern also paves the way to learn to speak it if desired where further adaptation would be required if we used reconstructed.
@@bma wonderful! I’ve been teaching some beginner classes recently, and although I usually use Kantor’s reconstruction in my own personal reading, I’ve chosen to teach students modern because there are more easily available resources to start learning the sounds. Keep up the great work! Thanks!
Good stuff! We all should utilize modern greek at the very least.
As a new member of BMA of only four months and not proficient in any pronunciation. Would it be best to start over to learn modern and will you be providing a cohort that will only be in modern? It’s confusing to me to keep hearing the various pronunciations. Thanks.
I'm in the same boat!
This is a challenge. It takes time to switch over. We have one cohort going now entirely in modern. Meanwhile the rest of us are working on it. Your pronunciation will develop as you go, so I recommend carrying on and changing as you go. There are bigger issues to worry about at the early stages than what pronunciation you use. Keep taking small, consistent steps toward mastery!
Thanks
Rough breathing is a key to this issue. From the text of the New Testament, it is evident that the morphology of the language at the time was such that rough breathing was definitely present. Thus, any pronunciation that disregards rough breathing is inconsistent with the way the language was pronounced at the time.
Actually Kantor argues that the rough breathing mark had largely dropped out of use in most places in the first century. Though he does see several areas where it is still in use. However, the rough breathing is still interesting, and I'm tempted to hold onto it in many ways.
I see both sides, but given my unhappy lifelong struggle to spell English and the immense relief I felt when I became fluent in Spanish at the age of 34 in 1981 and learned just how easy reading and spelling in a transparent language could be, I have to cast my ballot with Erasmian w/modern stess accent.
I just started picking up Greek again and I am unsure what to do. I am going through Bill Mounce's which he obviously uses Erasmian. But, I have watched so many videos and read a ton of stuff on this and I am still unsure. I guess the only benefit for Erasmian is that there are a lot of free resources and it is "easier" (more distinct). Any suggestions?
I think the trend is away from Erasmian, so I would be inclined to let that swing it. Focus on your pronunciation rather by listening to modern pronunciation. There are quite a few resources out there that are non-erasmian.
@@bma Thanks I appreciate it!
I use reconstructed Classical Attic pronunciation
I'm using biblingo for greek alphabet. Should I use koine or modern on the app?
I'd recommend Modern if you're starting from scratch.
Will the kids program use modern Greek pronunciation?
Not the first iteration. But some of our testers are using modern with it.
Just a heads up, if you're doing a truly modern pronunciation and not a reconstructed one, κοινή is pronounced more like "kee-nee". Iotacism is quite something haha. Keep up the great work!
I know. I haven't completely made the transition yet. Old habits die hard!
This was a good presentation except I don’t think I ever heard you explain WHY you chose to switch.
Will this be implemented to Master academy
Yes. We're working on it, though it will take some time to go through all our videos and update them. We have already started running pronunciation workshops for those wanting to use modern pronunciation though, and we'll do them whenever we start a new beginning Greek course.
@@bma awesome!
I have nothing against Erasmian, Lucian, or other pronunciations, as long as they're spoken with something close to a Greek accent. This means rolling or tapping ρ and pronouncing simple vowels as pure, which are features of most European languages other than Germanic. My third native language is Spanish, so I know "ere con ere cigarro".
I started with modern Greek pronunciation, which I picked up from Greeks, and added /y/ (ημεις/υμεις), length (τις/της), and pitch accent (τρυγών/τρυγῶν). I'd use this pronunciation when teaching Spanish speakers, as the only hard sounds are /θ/ (if they're Leftpondian, which all those I know are) and /y/. My first two languages are English and French, so these are native sounds for me. Lucian has diphthongs like /øy/, which exists in Finnish, but not English or Spanish.
How do you learn biblical Greek with a modern pronunciation?
The same way 13.5 million Greek speakers around the world do it. The "modern" pronunciation system is actually quite ancient, with Koine Greek being almost identical in phonology, despite the 2000 year time gap separating them. You won't regret making the switch! Best of luck!
@@E45F678 thank you
I'm probably biased, but I never really understood Erasmian pronunciation. To me, it just sounded like how an English speaker would pronounce Greek. Whenever I spoke to a Greek speaker from either the mainland, or from Cyprus, their way of pronouncing the Greek seemed much more natural. I can appreciate that languages change their pronunciation over time - but surely it'd have more commonality with modern Greek than modern English!
I can see the problem with some of the vowel sounds, and how in modern pronunciation there is not much distinguishing the sounds. And learning modern pronunciation does take a bit more effort than Erasmian (for English speakers anyway), because we're not used to some of the sounds.
Like you, I'm not hung up on which pronunciation style, though I have had people tell me that the modern pronunciation is 'wrong' - it's probably true, but that doesn't make Erasmian right!
I think there is truth to this. A lot of the appeal of Erasmian is that it is easy for an English speaker to pick up. Perhaps in this way we could think of Erasmian today as English Greek. 😉
Being pretty new to learning Greek I really gravitate to all your reasons for the Erasmiun pronunciation, and I really find silly modern Greeks turning half their letters and diphthongs to EE, but regardless of personal preference I think I might as well learn the modern language if it doesn’t diminish the actual word used in the koine writings.
Personally though, I found it very informative to learn the Erasmian pronunciation to explain why Greeks today have so many letters that all sound like EE. At least now I can stop kicking against a “stupid” alphabet.
Non-English-speakers also find it silly that all these letters and letter combinations make an EE sound: e; ea; ee; ei; ie; i; y; ey; ay; eo; oei in the following words respectively: even; heat; degree; receive; believe; machine; mystery; key; quay; people; onomatopoeia.
@@learnbiblicalgreek316 Πέστα, Χρυσόστομε 😂
It amazes me that there are some users of the Erasmian or reconstructed pronunciations who actually look down on Modern Greek and its pronunciation, as if it is inferior to Ancient Greek and not its natural evolution. It is one, continuous, changing organism passed down through millenia of generations of Greeks. It is all Greek and all equal in value! These people are usually the types who learned Erasmian (or reconstructed) first and just find Modern too different. Personal bias, in other words.
First! Great move
I agree that the issue is not something with arguing about, arguing is a waste of time. But I will say that when we contrast between Koine/Reconstructed and Modern, there are certain benefits for Reconstructed in a spoken/communicative context. Using Reconstructed does make some words homophones, Using Modern makes even more words homophones. There are certainly some words that become confusing in Modern when practicing speaking the language with other people. Like I said at the start, it's not a topic that anyone is well served arguing about, but in my opinion, reconstructed is more practical in a classroom setting. You will notice, that many of the words that became homophones because of iotization have disappeared from Modern Greek,. It is clear that these confusing words disappeared from Modern because of the confusion that iotization made.
Be aware that Attic and helenistic is very different, you speak about Attic and then again at the same time you had different pronunciations at different regions
@@paulrudiger2552 I wasn't talking about attic in my post. But yes, I agree with the general idea that there were different pronunciations at different times in different regions. Any effort to determine/reconstruct a pronunciation for a particular time period needs to take this into account.
P.S. Modern pronunciation of koine is keenee not keenay. Had a laugh at that one!
Glad you are moving away from Erasmian. But are you moving to a real modern translation (as they speak it in Greece today)? As I would say that Kantor is more a reconstructed Koine Greek from how they think it was pronounced historically during the Koine time.
We are leaning toward modern rather than reconstructed. The difference is not significant, and certainly less than Erasmian to Modern.
Im learning NT Greek to read the Bible. I won't put in the effort to learn modern Greek vocabulary that I'll never use (Id rather put that effort into OT Hebrew). All the biblical scholars and pastors I know, or listen to, use Erasmus. Seems silly for me to learn a pronunciation I'll never use or hear (except at bma). Erasmus messed it up but I don't see it changing anytime soon in the biblical community. Just my thoughts.
I agree, there is no need to learn modern vocabulary (or pronunciation for that matter). There are though, lots of resources in modern pronunciation which can help us learn Greek.
I learn to pronounce Koine Greek listening to Philemon Zachariou here on yt
An extinct language is a language with no living descendants that no longer has any first-language or second-language speakers.[1][2] In contrast, a dead language is a language that no longer has any first-language speakers, but does have second-language speakers or is used fluently in written form, such as Latin. Wikipedia
Are you saying that Koine Greek is an extinct or dead language?
Ἑλληνιστὶ οὐκ γλῶσσα νεκρά ἐστιν. Ἐγὼ ὁμιλῶ Ἑλληνιστί. Οὗτοι ἄλλοι ὁμιλοῦσιν Ἑλληνιστί:
Benjamin Kantor - American giving a 12-minute speech in Ancient Greek in Delphi Greece: "Learning from a Living Voice"
Christophe Rico - Interview with Christophe Rico in Ancient Greek/ διάλογος πρὸς Χριστόφορον
Eugenia Manolidou - διάλογος πρὸς Εὐγενίαν / Interview in Ancient Greek with Eugenia Manolidou
An Interview with Adrian Hundhausen (in Ancient Greek) about His New Book: ὁ Φάρος (@ArgosDidaskei)
Michael Kopf - διάλογος πρὸς Κέφαλον / Interview in Ancient Greek with Michael Kopf (AGROS education)
Dr. Jordash Kiffiak - Koine Greek Video Blog #7: A Conversation in Koine Greek with Dr. Jordash Kiffiak
Ἄνθρωποι δύο ὁμιλοῦσιν Ἑλληνιστί - Koine Greek Conversation @learnbiblicalgreek316
Rogelio Toledo @rogeliotoledo5821
Jenny Teichmann, Πῶς λαλοῦμεν περὶ τοῦ νῦν λοιμοῦ Ἑλληνιστί; @PaideiaMedia Alex Petkas (Greek) @PaideiaMedia
Kαὶ πολλοὶ ἄλλοι ὁμιλοῦσιν Ἑλληνιστί.
I think I’ll stick with Erasmian because I follow Rob Plummer’s Daily Dose of Greek which uses it
Modern pronunciation is not reasonably consistent with 1st century pronunciation. Modern vowels are quite different, and modern pronunciation lacks pitch accent.
My needs center more on needing to remember spelling. I seldom run into 1st-century Greek speakers I need to converse with. I’ll stick with Erasmian. That, sadly, discounts the value of BMA materials going forward. Developing Greek proficiency is a big enough challenge without the extra friction caused by a mismatch in pronunciation. 🙁
We'll provide Erasmian pronunciation in our materials for quite some time to come I think. I like to think of what we're doing as "prioritizing modern pronunciation" not deleteing Erasmian.
I think Erasmian sounds cooler, but I'm from the 21st century, the apostle Paul wouldn't understand a word I was reading!
Love this!
Totally agree. Erasmian pronunciation is WRONG.
And hideous 😂
Its koine κοινή, ηηηη
The only way to sound like you're speaking a real language is to speak a language that still has native speakers. There's a stiffness and fakeness that comes from any attempt at sounding like someone from the distant past
Erasmian, only.
Erasmian Onlyism reminds me of KJV Onlyism. Unlike their adherents, the founder of Erasmian pronunciation, Erasmus was not an adherent, and the committee which translated the KJV weren't KJV onlyists.
@@cedricfieldmouse2860 Interesting comparison.
“Erasmian pronunciation is similar to English pronunciation”!? You must love the sound nails on a chalkboard! 😬
This is a non issue. Nobody should ever dream of Koine Greek as a living language. It is a dead language and we should treat it as such. Read it, read it, read it.... you won't speak it. In addition no one is speaking Koine Greek as the first century used to speak it. We all use our different national accents. So with erasminian or lucian, it is always a different prononciation because of the national accents.
You are wrong is still functioning in spoken and written form
Di you really know who speaks ancient Greek as a living everyday language? Nobody does.
@@life-is-excellent8861 You don't have an idea what you talking about. It's been red everyday in every Greek church, everything that the Orthodox Church writes uses let's say 85%. But I assume you are a foreigner and not Greek and that means that you have "heard" or "red" about our language and not lived the language
@@life-is-excellent8861 But you put ancient Greek in an extreme broad term. Homeric, Attic or Ionian and Hellinistic is very different. We speak about hellinistic. Hellinistic is very similar to Καθαρεύουσα something that was spoken 50 years before, not by all, but in school and the state. But still, we speak about a whole language that have many faces, is like you read Shakespeare or let's say Byron is not the same but I guess every educated English understands. It has to do with education I cannot speak fluently in helenistic Greek, but I understand 95%,but as I told you church people from high ranks can, as the previous archbishop of Greece Χριστόδουλος
@@paulrudiger2552 Dear Paul. Ancient Greek is neither red nor spoken in everyday Orthosx Churches; and there is no evidence on how the ancient languages were spoken (no audio records); this is sure for every ancient language as it is for Latin, Hebrew, and so on....Until someone gives me an audio recording of those languages spoken by Homer, Aristotle, Philo, or in the Hebrew language from Moses, David, Jonah, and in Latin, from Tacitus, Ceasar, and so on, no one should try to make believe that the way we speak those languages today (in Greek, Latin, Hebrew) is according to the official pronunciation of these languages then.... That is all I am saying. I have studied Greek for 42 years, honestly, this official pronunciation thing is all but serious and necessary.... Blessings
Wait let me guess; you got tired of the eye-rolls from actual Greeks 🤭
Good guess, but that wasn't a big driver. 😉
Erasmian pronunciation is NOT the correct pronunciation. Everybody should learn REAL pronunciation. Greetings and God bless.