Gary Gygax on Dungeons and Dragons Rules - 1975
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- Опубликовано: 8 янв 2023
- Some people would argue that Gary Gygax changed his position on rules for D&D over the years. In this episode, we examine Gary's own words regarding rules that appeared in a 1975 fanzine (Alarums and Excursions).
To find out more about Alarums and Excursions go here: conchord.org/xeno/aande.html
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Игры
7:58 "D&D is supposed to offer a challenge to the imagination and to do so in many ways. Perhaps the most important is in regard to what the possibilities of a given situation are. If players know what all the monster parameters are, what can be expected in a given situation, exactly what will happen to them if they perform thus and so, most of the charm of the game is gone."
-- Gary Gygax
BRILLIANT
Exactly and it's my problem with the game today. It's not designed to challenge players.
Happy that you guys love Gygax as much as I do. He has a lot of great ideas, and I've implemented many of them in my games.
You’re absolutely right, Jim, re: Gary Gygax’ contribution to the hobby. The people who refuse to acknowledge him fail to realise that without him most folks would be playing monopoly. At any rate, I’ve shared your channel with my Facebook D&D group. Wishing you both every success on your way to 3,000 subscribers and beyond.
Hello Brett! Thank you for the great comment and for sharing the channel with others. It's greatly appreciated. And the iconoclastic attitude toward Gary Gygax baffles me. You are completely right - without him, RPGs would not be where they are.
KYSAF, sir!
@@theoldwarlock iconoclasm is a sign of the times, sadly, but with channels such as this (and young men like Alex to continue the legacy of D&D into the future), I think we’ll be OK.
@@brettsimpson1505 Thanks, Brett.
Great job as always guys. Gary Gygax changed my life with D&D. As an introvert with a lot of creativity it was the outlet that appealed to me and my friends. I couldn't paint or play music but I could create worlds and adventures and it gave me something I needed at that time in my life...Enthusiasm. Keep up the good work gentlemen!
I think you and I are coming at this from the same place. The chance to create worlds and adventures carried me for years and, in some ways, still does. Without it, it's hard to tell what direction things might have gone. Thanks for the compliment.
Great video guys!
I started playing D&D back in 1978 when I was 11, and it was a mix of basic D&D and AD&D (as was everything else in that year). I still remember reading Gary's comments from Dragon and the DM Guide and thinking he was sort of a Jeykyll and Hyde. In Dragon he would say if you didn't follow the rules as written then you weren't playing "real" D&D, and yet in the DM Guide he basically said thes rules are guidelines, do as you will. It confused young Me, but it didn't matter, D&D was everything. :)
Money will make people say odd things : )
Great video guys. Thanks!
Glad you liked it B4.
I've always strongly believed that written mechanics being guidelines instead of rules is one of the key precepts that defines the TTRPG genre. Others I'm sure have different tastes than I, but when I see people trying to follow every rule to the written letter it feels like they are trying to simulate a video game rather than immerse themselves in a collaborative fantasy narrative.
Super cool to see that Mr. Gygax identified this almost two decades before I was even born, I had no idea.
Our thoughts exactly. Thanks for the comment and keep your sword arm free!
Just wanted to tell you guys how glad I am I’ve found your channel Out of the Blue, and how much I’m enjoying it. It’s like a Discovery, finding El Dorado. Sharing the Strange Magic of old school D&D you guys share with myself and others. Hearing Jim and Mr. Blue Sky pontificate upon such things has made me feel I’m Alive. I shared your channel at the ODD74 forum boards just to Shine a Little Love for you guys. Keep on doing what you’re doing and Don’t Let Me Down.
Thanks! I'd forgotten half of those titles. Well played (get it?). Glad you liked the content. And thanks for sharing the channel. It's paid off pretty well in subscribers over the past few days. Really appreciated. All the best -
I put Gee of GaXmoor, magic user lvl unknown and Arni son of David, cleric lvl unknown. In a tower hidden in the mountains west of Ratik. Both extremely old, one obsessed with making the perfect potion and the other the master spell.. They constantly argue but won't hesitate to share a drink and a fine meal of a evening while discussing the intricacies of the multiverse, also while bickering. And if your just lucky enough to find it and they take a liking to ya, they tell tales of magnificent wonder, any one of which could lead into a great adventure.
Really love this. Thanks for sending it.
As soon as I saw the title, I couldn't click fast enough. Very much looking forward to watching this one : )
Something I think is worth distinguishing here regarding the concept of standardization is Hobby vs. Game. It is easy to forget that at the time Dungeons & Dragons was the name of both the hobby and the game (generally speaking, there is some more nuance that I shall refrain from covering at this time), with the former being the act of actually getting together to engage in play and the latter being the books you read. By the time his tune changed you had not only money & product lines bringing to the surface a specific attitude, but other games which existed in the hobbyspace as well.
Nowadays it is easier to distinguish between the Hobby (TTRPGs) and the Game (D&D, Gamma World, GURPS, Dread, etc.) because we have a much larger spread of selection. I know for me it is not uncommon to tweak or hack rule-sets due to my background as a game designer, however I find that when I play more tightly-focused games for fulfilling a specific niche: I rarely modify the mechanics. I've been gradually moving closer and closer to a style of GMing called GLOG, seeing systems more as tools for a job and often find myself using more than one per campaign. Why repurpose a screwdriver to drive nails into a board when you have a perfectly good hammer?
And so that has assisted in me seeing a greater separation between Hobby and Game! Looking at a new system as an opportunity to expand my play options, rather than as a means to entirely replace or erase the previously collected.
I think that's a great way to look at it! I like the idea of using your tools available to you in the most efficient way possible. That improves the whole experience. Thanks for your comment, and keep your sword arm free!
What is GLOG an acronym for, out of curiosity?
@@Cr4z3d Goblin Laws of Gaming. It is more a philosophy to me than anything but there is a pretty quick to pick up game system more drawn towards a OSR style.
There is also MOSAIC Strict which is more directly design philosophy I'd also recommend checking out (I don't remember what all of MOSAIC stands for, but it doesn't really matter). Some folks have made pocket-sized/modular rulesets under it that are really neat. There was a Modern Fantasy game jam for it on itch with a whole heap of 'em design to fit on cards.
@@TheNerdySimulation Neat, thanks for the reply 👍
All praise The Old Warlock upload! I wonder how discussions from "The Maker" of D&D would affect a court case over TSR/HASBRO's new Open License agreement? Our Sword Arms are free to fight the detractors of D&D and it's First Prophet GYGAX!
Without Arneson we don't have an RPG but without Gygax there would be nothing to sell to people as Arneson never really had a 'rule set' to distribute. Gygax is the reason people are able to play their own game of it.
Couldn't agree more!
So, every now and then I watch some gaming RUclips videos and check out the stuff in the background just to see if anything looks familiar. I had that rocket that you guys have behind you on a table way back when I was a kid, I'm guessing sometime in the 70s. I explicitly remember having it, but I honestly haven't thought about that rocket in probably 45 years. Thanks for helping me to relive a cherished memory from childhood! Oh, and the content of your video was great too! 🙂
Thanks Matthew! Here's the thing, however. That Saturn V rocket is not the one from the 70s. It's actually a Lego build from about 5 years ago. BUT, the reason I bought it is because I had the one from the 70s I'm sure you had. My grandfather purchased it and built it for me when I was 7 in 1970. I loved the whole astronaut thing and the rocket had pride of place in my room for years. There was a little moon lander model that sat on a section of cratered moon as well. Both disappeared at some point in the early 80s. When I saw the lego set, it seemed to be a perfect match for my lost model. I bought and built it to remind me of that first model, and to help me remember the coolest grandfather ever (at least to me).
@@theoldwarlock Wow, it looks exactly like that old rocket from the 70s! Great story about your grandfather. Priceless memories.
After watching this, I'm just going to go out on a limb and say I think you enjoyed reading, and agreed with, my preface : )
Great video.
Thanks MP!
I much prefer these types of videos rather than the podcast-type videos. I'll watch for 20 minutes. I won't watch a long-form video FWIW.
I liked the George Washington/Gary Gygax comparison. They were both fathers of things.
I want to play in one of your games. ;)
I agree with Gary.
There is a line in I think the DMG or the players handbook of 1AD&D that he says the rules are a guideline.
Nice video
Thanks so much! Keep your sword arm free!
Strictly speaking, "Alarums and Excursions" (derived from a stage direction found in Shakespeare's historical plays) is an APA, or Amateur Press Association, not a singular fanzine. In an APA, members provide the editor (Lee Gold) with a requisite number of printed-in 1975, mimeographed, mostly-copies of small fanzines of a few pages. Lee and friends would collate these together into a single bound volume, and send them to all the members, keeping a substantial remainder for sales and archives. There are still printed APAs, but not many.
"Dungeons and Beavers" was a local jocular term for "Warlock", an elaboration or variant on the original D&D rules printed and used by a gaming group at the California Institute of Technology, so called because the CalTech mascot (as with many engineering schools) is the beaver. I don't recall details now, but believe I have a copy somewhere. I seem to remember that there were several versions of the fireball spell with different magnitudes (e.g., 'mini-ball'), as one might expect from engineers.
Ted Johnstone was the fannish name for David McDaniel, who wrote some of the tie-in paperback novels for The Man From U.N.C.L.E. and The Prisoner. He passed away in an unfortunate home accident (if I remember aright) in 1977 at the age of 38. He was much loved in L.A. fandom; he had edited the very first Tolkien fanzine, _I_ _Palantir_ in 1960.
My father and I were originally taught the Warlock rules which included a bloody Critical hits table and the micro fire ball. Some of it was fun and some overly complex. I could say the same thing of AD&D. Enjoyed your talk and your swords.
Very much interesting! I agree with you, Jim: D&D as a product needed to be one, defined, standardized, thing; nevertheless it's always been in its truest spirit and nature to also be something in need, I'd say, of customization. D&D is a way of playing, a form of interaction and management of game and in between the game and players, rather than a game. Once you understand this, and a bit of statistics fundamentals, you are able to find your personal ways for managing situations in game as you see fit and this becomes part of the fun and joy. Horns up for Master Gygax!
We'll always cheers to Master Gygax! Thanks for the comment Marco, always good to hear from you. Keep your sword arm free!
President Gary Washington’s opening response was epic. Rolled a 20.
Now I’m gonna look for your controversial video. 😂
Considering how far back this video was filmed, it is surprisingly relevant to the OGL 1.1 nonesense going on right now.
We've been hearing a lot about that too. Hopefully we get some more information on it soon.
Nobody ever used all the rules, except maybe in tournaments, and even then, not literally *all* of them. *Especially* not the game designers, as true now as it was then. I started in AD&D 1e with some guys who were basically by-the-book, but even they had house rules, and didn't adopt most of the optional stuff, like UA, which was admittedly not official, so they had no use for it and wouldn't allow it. And it was still our own game, not TSR's.
You're becoming, for me, the Wayne's World of the RPG RUclipss. If Wayne was with his dad-lol.
Excellent!!
Now, when's Rob Lowe arrive to monetize y'all? …and where's Tia Carrere? …and what would Mrs Old Warlock say? Aghh, the drama!!! 😂
Very cool! Thanks for the tip. I'll check these out.
Like my favorite D&D characters, I view Gygax as an amazing person with some obvious flaws. What a great window into the earliest days of the game he gave us.
You're welcome! Alarums and Excursions is a great early days insight. We've plans for similar old mags in the near future.
Very interesting especially in light to what is happening with WOTC at the moment
Very true.
A beautiful elevator dance.
Of course, the standardization and TSR as the final authority of D&D did take on very unsightly aspects as well, and I don't think these should be downplayed. Thing is, there was a lot of money on the line, as you say, and by the time AD&D got released, there was a *lot* of mud-slinging and bad blood between TSR and many other RPG publishers and figures in the industry (partially because of TSR's early attempts to kill off competitors by legal action, partially because you don't usually get big without making some enemies in general). Gygax certainly did not always espouse a rhetoric of tolerance - especially when it came to third party products. If you were to believe in his words (and the words of people writing under him), such products were often beneath contempt and outright detrimental to the game.
Hell, sometimes Gary outright slammed small fanzine publications with needless cruelty. This is in some ways understandable as well, as the man was under a lot of stress and was quite standoffish by nature, but it certainly did not earn them any points in anyone's eyes.
Here is, for example, a quote from 1978, where Gary really lays down some law on notions that other people supposedly had any idea what to do with his game (this was in regards to arguments that D&D could/should use a spell points system (from Dragon Magazine, no less):
"Spell point systems are also currently in vogue amongst the fringe group which haunt the pages of “Amateur Press Association” publications. Now APAs are generally beneath contempt, for they typify the lowest form of vanity press. There one finds pages and pages of banal chatter and inept writing from persons incapable of creating anything which is publishable elsewhere. Therefore, they pay money to tout their sophomoric ideas, criticise those who are able to write and design, and generally make themselves obnoxious. * While there are notable exceptions, they are far too few to give any merit to the vehicles they appear in. From this morass rose the notion that a spell point system should be inserted into D&D. "
And let's just have another quote, from 1982, when the party line had really solidified. You can probably see how people might say his view on "D&D is everyone's game, anyone can make whatever they want of it" had shifted just a bit:
"Since the game is the sole property of TSR and its designer, what is official and what is not has meaning if one plays the game. Serious players will only accept official material, for they play the game rather than playing at it, as do those who enjoy “house rules” poker, or who just push pawns around the chessboard. No power on earth can dictate that gamers not add spurious rules and material to either the D&D or AD&D game systems, but likewise no claim to playing either game can then be made."
As can be observed, Gygax certainly was not the beneficial "father of imagination" all the time. Sometimes he ran a business and flew a banner in ways that did not really garner TSR much sympathy.
This is not to say, at all, that Gygax was some despotic tyrant. He did a lot of good. But just in general TSR's history is filled with a lot of unfortunate politics and corporate hassling, and their touch was sometimes very heavy-handed. I think Gygax got like this often because he had too much skin and passion in the game to be otherwise. It was easy to incite him to lash out, by all accounts. His rhetoric was also often filled with needless hyperbole and he often argued for his case by arguing how any other case would be simply worse, which is not a very friendly way to put things, as it tends to be.
EGG didn't use all the official rules in his home game, and yet he wrote that. How can this be? Well he was writing about ad&d the standardized rules for tournament play. There have always been two D&D's: 1) the standard version for tournament and organized play; and 2) each DM's variant for their home game.
1.0 is great your shows are good
Thanks CM!
I'm really not Gary bashing, as I definitely respect him as the original driving force behind making TTRPGs a thing of their own; however, he really was hateful and dismissive of the Western TTRPG'ers, especially the ones that went on to design games of their own. He openly mocked their desire for more realistic combat, even though a lot of them were actually involved in medieval martial sports, not just pushing miniatures around a table.
To hear it straight from Gary Gygax himself, you should read the From the Sorceror's Scroll article in The Dragon magazine #16, under the title: "Role-Playing: Realism vs. Game Logic; Spell Points, Vanity Press and Rip-offs."
From page 16 of that article, Gary reveals how he really felt about homebrew rulings:
"With the popularity of DUNGEONS & DRAGONS increasing so dramatically, I fervently desire to put the matter of variants, particularly “realistic” variants, to rest once and for all, so as to get on to other more important things, but it keeps springing up every time a sound stroke is dealt to it. Additions to and augmentations of certain parts of the D&D rules are fine. Variants which change the rules so as to imbalance the game or change it are most certainly not. These sorts of tinkering fall into the realm of creation of a new game, not development of the existing system, and as I stated earlier, those who wish to make those kind of changes should go and design their own game."
Also on page 16, he tells us how he really felt about those fan 'zines:
"[T]he fringe group which haunt the pages of “Amateur Press Association” publications. Now APAs are generally beneath contempt, for they typify the lowest form of vanity press. There one finds pages and pages of banal chatter and inept writing from persons incapable of creating anything which is publishable elsewhere. Therefore, they pay money to tout their sophomoric ideas, criticise (sic) those who are able to write and design, and generally make themselves obnoxious."
On page 21, he let's us (and Dave Arneson...this is from around the time Dave was suing TSR) know who he thinks should be writing D&D canon:
"TSR created the whole of fantasy role playing gaming as a hobby, and we are proud of this achievement. Pride is what we have accomplished gives us a paternal right to protect our creation. Be glad, for it will help to assure that your game remains a good one, and that when you see “D&D” on a product you will have reasonable expectations with respect to its quality. Use your imagination and creativity when you play D&D, for there is much room within its parameters for individuality and personalization; always keep in mind that everything in the game is there for a reason, that major systems are carefully geared and balanced to mesh together to make a workable whole. Changing one part could well ruin the rest, and then what would you play?"
Now, Gary had his favorite pets, like Judges Guild and Game Designers Workshop, but a quick summary of who he thought was qualified to create legitimate D&D content can be found in The Dragon magazine #11, in a article entitled "View from the Telescope Wondering Which End is Which."
From the above mentioned article, on page 5, we find Gary saying:
"Imitation is claimed to be the sincerest form of flattery, and D&D has ample reason to be flattered. Foolish imitations are demeaning however, and shoddy ones are worse still in that to the extent that they are associated with the imitated, they lower its character and repute. Similarly, DUNGEONS & DRAGONS is an entity with excellent repute, and we stringently protect it. This is done from both paternal pride and profit motivation. Not surprisingly, we take the view that the creators and publishers know best how to develop the creation"
On page 6, Gary gives this bit of artistic representation of how he saw the producers of other games and those that shared homebrew rulings through fan 'zines:
"I cannot resist the analogy of a lion standing over its kill. The vultures scream, and the jackals yap, when the lion drives them off without allowing them to steal bits of the meat. Perhaps a hyena will manage to successfully grab off a mouthful, but that is all. Other lions may also prey upon the same herd and make even bigger kills, but that is the law of the land. Pardon me, please, if you find the picture not to your liking. From my end it seems most apropos, for I hear a good deal of screaming and yapping. TSR was the lion which brought down the prey, and we intend to have the benefits derived therefrom. If we share with anyone, it will be on our terms. The hunter which fails to bring down its kill dies itself."
Of course, Gary ended up letting Brian Blume's daddy give him a spanking, and send him to bed without supper, and we all got much worse versions of AD&D because he wasn't the lion he thought. Going back to the previously referenced article from Dragon #16, on page 16, we find a pretty good summary of that game we got after Gary let himself get pushed out of TSR:
"Why can’t magic-users employ swords? And for that matter, why not allow fighters to use wands and similar magical devices? On the surface this seems a small concession, but in actuality it would spoil the game! Each character role has been designed with care in order to provide varied and unique approaches to solving the problems which confront the players. If characters are not kept distinct, they will soon merge into one super-character. Not only would this destroy the variety of the game, but it would also kill the game, for the super-character would soon have nothing left to challenge him or her, and the players would grow bored and move on to something which was fun."
Excellent, well-supported comment. Thanks for sending this!
"House rules and homebrew the hell out of your D&D game." - Gary Gygax
Word. 👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻
to bad it has been lost to time the long form discussions that Gary and our small community of rules nerds argued to the wee hours of the morning. Funny story in that group there were 3 Jeff's I was nick named "Jeff that asshole" by Gary himself. I like to think we were friends but I would also like the idea of being his best enemy almost as much.
In those forums we had titles like CE doesn't exist your just LG to your cause. or Memorize Cast Rest Repeat. The first we discussed for close to a year kicking the tires to alternative alignment systems. The later just about every spell system you could imagine. It wasn't uncommon to see our (community) discussions make it into dragon or dungeon.
Somewhere out there is a 1e DMG that on the back cover say "The definitive guide for a asshole thanks GG" lost at a con... he was a hardliner but he was caramelly soft at the core. He deserves respect and remembrance.
Okay - first, I would have given pretty much anything to have been given such an nickname by Gary G. It would be carved on my tombstone. Second, I agree, the idea of being his best enemy would have been equally cool. Finally, I would still be losing sleep about the loss of that DMG. Thanks for the comment. Glad you got to know the man.
@@theoldwarlock I have hopes someone picked it up mistakenly but has a good home nonetheless.
Few understand when a point in time is special until it is too late.
Is Yolanda going to rent out Gary's Old Basement this summer for gaming?
Somehow I don't think so. But I'll bet there are people who would pay big money to be able to do so.
@@theoldwarlock it was available as B&B last summer
Near spit take. Well done Alexander
It would be cool, if you would wear the helmets and swords in the background during a show.
Stay awesome!
We might have to give it a try sometime! Keep your eyes peeled for it.
It's a real shame that these aren't available in a more accessible and affordable way. They would make a fortune by putting collections on Kickstarter as big printed books.
Agreed. Would love to see just that.
Gary Gyax day oder July 27
Gygax is gOd.
Gary Gygax is, was, and forever will be the true D&D Father, anyone who says different...I have a Vorpal sword that will change their mind. 🗡
Ever heard of Dave Arneson?
@@griselame natural 20 , well my Vorpal works...next.
@@chuck971 well... For 50% of D&d yeah :)
@@griselame yo , he's wearing a ring of regeneration.... called shot 😎
@@griselame I'd consider Arneson more the father of Blackmoor and RPGs in general. He never really ran D&D as we know it.
Lol incredible to see how much he change after he kicked Dave arneson out
Dungeons and Beavers? Are those the extinct beavers with horned heads that dug burrows? Modern beavers live in lodges, not dungeons.
Yes, TSR had to standardize the game in order to sell their product. However, the reason rules lawyers are wrong is simple; no one is 'required' to play the game by any set of standardized rules. Everyone is encouraged to make up their own rules 'house rules' and make the game fit their style of play. Thus, despite what rules lawyers believe, there is no such thing as a 'rules violation' in D&D. None. Zero. They don't exist, because no rule in D&D is sacred. There is no one way to play D&D, and there never will be. The fact that we have all the editions of the game that we have only proves this point. How you play D&D is 100% up to you. If you don't realize this, or understand it, well... then you 'might' be a 'rules lawyer'... I said 'might' : )
😁
D&D is more important than Wotc and Hasbro. Interesting how things repeat themselves.
We were thinking the same thing. It'll be interesting to see how WOTCs, I'll call it odd, announcement plays out. Not so well, I would guess.
@@theoldwarlock They will try and mealy-mouth there way out, then try again later. The hand has been shown.
Alex, the old guy has way bigger guns than you. Time to start hitting the weights bro. Don't be lazy. ;)
Alex here, I can't let him see this comment, it's going to make him insufferable.
Too late…
Ah, the wisdom of the old ones coming to the light once more. Many of the newer players, playing the newer versions, could learn much if only they could look beyond the wall of Plato's cave (and Wizard's/Hasbro's Cannon).
Love the reference, Marcus, thanks for the comment!
Gygax is God!!!! Thank you for DnD. And no thanks to WOTC
D&D is far too important to leave to Hasbro.
Great comment!
DId he ever change his mind and apologize for saying that womens brains can't handle playing DND?
Source?
@@madpixie02I'm not going to look this up for you, but if you care about the truth, look into it, he was unbelievably sexist, and the world is better off without him.
Well if YOU care about the truth, look it up yourself because it's not what he said. And place it in the context of the time and kind of game be was playing. By the way had a daughter that played D&D and was proud of it.
Dave Arneson:HEY!