Sam Harris: The Self is an Illusion | Big Think
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- Опубликовано: 15 сен 2014
- Sam Harris describes the properties of consciousness and how mindfulness practices of all stripes can be used to transcend one's ego.
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Sam Harris is the author of the New York Times bestsellers, The End of Faith and Letter to a Christian Nation. The End of Faith won the 2005 PEN Award for Nonfiction.
Mr. Harris' writing has been published in over ten languages. He and his work have been discussed in Newsweek, TIME, The New York Times, Scientific American, Rolling Stone, and many other journals. His writing has appeared in Newsweek, The Los Angeles Times, The Times (London), The Boston Globe, The Atlantic, Nature, The Annals of Neurology, and elsewhere.
Mr. Harris is a graduate in philosophy from Stanford University and holds a PhD in neuroscience from UCLA, where he studied the neural basis of belief with functional magnetic resonance imaging (fMRI). He is also a Co-Founder and CEO of Project Reason.
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TRANSCRIPT
Sam Harris: What one of the problems we have in discussing consciousness scientifically is that consciousness is irreducibly subjective. This is a point that many philosophers have made - Thomas Nagel, John Searle, David Chalmers. While I don’t agree with everything they’ve said about consciousness I agree with them on this point that consciousness is what it’s like to be you. If there’s an experiential internal qualitative dimension to any physical system then that is consciousness. And we can’t reduce the experiential side to talk of information processing and neurotransmitters and states of the brain in our case because - and people want to do this. Someone like Francis Crick said famously you’re nothing but a pack of neurons. And that misses the fact that half of the reality we’re talking about is the qualitative experiential side. So when you’re trying to study human consciousness, for instance, by looking at states of the brain, all you can do is correlate experiential changes with changes in brain states. But no matter how tight these correlations become that never gives you license to throw out the first person experiential side. That would be analogous to saying that if you just flipped a coin long enough you would realize it had only one side. And now it’s true you can be committed to talking about just one side. You can say that heads being up is just a case of tails being down. But that doesn’t actually reduce one side of reality to the other.
And to give you a more precise example, we have very strong third person “objective measures” of things like anxiety and fear at this moment. You bring someone into the lab, they say they’re feeling fear. You can scan their brains with FMRI and see that their amygdala response is heightened. You can measure the sweat on their palms and see that there’s an increased galvanic skin response. You can check their blood cortisol and see that its spiking. So these now are considered objective third person measures of fear. But if half the people came into the lab tomorrow and said they were feeling fear and showed none of these signs and they said they were completely calm when their cortisol spiked and when their palms started to sweat, these objective measures would no longer be reliable measures of fear. So the cash value of a change in physiology is still a change in the first person conscious side of things. And we’re inevitably going to rely on people’s subjective reports to understand whether our correlations are accurate. So the hope that we are going to talk about consciousness shorn of any kind of qualitative internal experiential language, I think, is a false one. So we have to understand both sides of it subjective - classically subjective and objective.
I’m not arguing that consciousness is a reality beyond science or beyond the brain or that it floats free of the brain at death. I’m not making any spooky claims about its metaphysics. What I am saying, however, is that the self is an illusion. The sense of being an ego, an I, a thinker of thoughts in addition to the thoughts. An experiencer in addition to the experience. The sense that we all have of riding around inside our heads as a kind of a passenger in the vehicle of the body. That’s where most people start when they think about any of these questions. Most people don’t feel identical to their bodies. They feel like they have bodies. They feel like they’re inside the body. And most people feel like they’re inside their heads. Now that sense of being a subject, a locus of consciousness inside the head is an illusion.
Transcript continued on: bigthink.com/videos/sam-harri...
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Why? People are quite smart going through their mistakes to acquire wisdom for themselves
The best description of what consciousness is, was written by Descartes, "I think therefore I am". Any further analysis of the subject of consciousness, you run into the problem of being incomplete. A characteristic of a all self- referential systems.
I was going to comment how moronic this guy is, but many people already did that. I guess I'll just laugh at this guy's illusions, which I have the free will to choose to do. Also it's good comedy for intelligent minds. 😂🤣😂💀😇
Get smarter!! What did you smoke!? One is either born that way, or paid enough attention in life, what you must mean is "fall in line", misinformation is what rules, only the delusional will fall for your every word, today's worst malady.
I have no self and I have no free will and yet somehow I still have to pay my student loans.
That's how they get you...
@@Knaeben with student loans.
@@Knaeben kinda like how they completely dupe you into thinking cat tastes good by using msg.
Kaeben oh yeah? Tell me how did you fully escaped this system?
Yes. You will spend your entire life chasing things that you will lose when you die. Enjoy.
I'm currently doing the Waking Up course of meditation and although it's really simple (and probably obvious), the biggest breakthrough for me was to realise that I needed to stop trying to 'find myself', which is something I've always tried to do, and instead make every effort to lose my self.
Can you explain to me how you meditate through Waking Up ?
@@laza6141 I use the guided meditations on the app
In order to find yourself you must lose yourself
I think the key is that there is no self to find or lose; it's like worrying about finding the nonexistent key to a nonexistent chest.
@@Malt454 exactly. We all feel like this “i” that “has” an experience. Truth is we ARE the experience.
We are lucky to live in the present time of phone technology where we could hear intelligent and articulate beings like Sam without actually going to college . This is a type of talk that one can only hear in academic environments.
God forbid -- but sadly you are right.
Or on the toilet!
My hippie teacher in high school said the exact same stuff. When I was younger, my Christian grandfather taught me the exact same stuff. The ego does not matter.
Or with friends, smoking weed.
This kind of teaching is very old. Maybe it sounds very new to you because of your cultural background. What Sam Harris is saying is directly influenced by Buddha's teachings.
Without struggle the mind creates struggles.
@@vodkacannon But...but it's true. That's why people shouldn't aim for Utopia society. Humans will drive themselves mad.
That's a evolutionary trait. We are wired to overcome adversity. When we arent, we feel empty.
@@timon20061995 depends on what you mean by Utopia
no no..he's got a point
Nah, its just the closed walls and ticking clocks. Basically society
Yeah im gonna have to watch this 5 more times to understand it
lmaoo samee
twice must be enough, just take notes :)
Take shrooms then watch it
I am watching it 2nd time. Still I am confused
Watched it over 20 times, still discovering shit
He has to be one of the most eloquent speakers I've ever heard.
Ematched, closer to three million years.
Prospero yeah, that's the evidence for our lineage. I was just referring to the modern human-specific branch.
Michael Clark what good reason do we have to think a god even exists, let alone created everything and gave a damn about what humans have done?
John Saf You must be dropping in from an alternate reality.
JC spoke as the I AM; “of myself I can do nothing.”
If Sam Harris's voice could narrate the thoughts in my head I might be okay with the constant chatter.
take some acid and watch a bunch of his videos then he'll narrate your thoughts for the rest of the trip
All I hear is Redrum Redrum
Can you not change how the voice in your head sounds? Its literally the same as remembering someone talking to you.
@Subarashii Ningen you must be from a 3rd world country. I say this because higher education has taught that no one can provide proof of things NOT existing. You cannot prove unicorns have never existed, or that pink elephants are NOT the reason for god being able to speak. You cannot prove I'm wrong about the universe being a microchip inside the iPhone of god. You CAN prove something to exist....if it actually does. So, since you....somehow....know god exists, please prove he does. No one is disproving you, you need to show us its actually real first.
@Subarashii Ningen I can't criticize it....because people thought about so much? Do you have any idea how much effort went into the quantum field theory? You are simply coping the statements of others. Your words hold no importance. Details about opinions mean nothing. Your religion is just s bunch of opinions.
The phrase "whatever your favorite contemplative is" is one that has been missing in my life. That one is headed straight to long-term memory for future use.
And that is exactly what the self is... Just a collection of other peoples rubbish being repeated
@@channiedhillon you know, the biggest disappoint about the pandemic to me was that in the beginning I really hoped we would realize we’re one species on one planet and maybe figure some shit out. That was pretty naive of me
@@channiedhillon Boy, the level of arrogance and ignorance here is impressive
@@adrianmasters250 it's mostly insecurity.
Honestly, I opted out of the philosophy of consciousness thoughts by my mid-20's. There were too many incorporeal aspects to the conversation that I felt were not useful to delve into any further. My future attention was to simply major in neurology at a university. Now I gives hand jobs to bums for $15 under the Queensboro bridge.
The only reason I'm in this comment section is because my girlfriend left me after we had an argument over which of us was an illusion.
Kissy, Kissy!
Don't tell him what the frick he should do.
Are you the new Buddha?
Bums have $15?
Kissy! You owe me $45
4:57 "In spiritual, mystical, new age *g* ...religious literature..."
I'm gonna go out on a limb and say he almost said "garbage". Nice save.
AHAHAHAHA yessssssssssss
... but let's not forget that Sam Harris promotes an atheistic spirituality and mysticism. He has explicitly said so many times.
Krshwunk Spirituality? Yes.
Mysticism? I don't think he'd like the term.
TheYopogo Well, you need to do a little more research. Google it.
Harris has said: "I used the words spirituality and mysticism affirmatively, in an attempt to put the range of human experience signified by these terms on a rational footing."
Claude Lebel So, there is a God? God is the self? Is that what you're saying?
Anyone too focused on any single discipline, will always miss the forrest for the trees. This is true for both scientists and philosophers.
🙏🏽
Amen! Talk about missing your own consciousness for technical details about the brain.
Once I realized that the Self is an illusion, it shattered my reality where I'm still picking up the pieces (and this is a good thing).
He explains each point so clearly and precisely. You can tell he's put a lot of effort over the years into speaking as accurately as possible.
Didn't he just tell you he doesn't exist.... So who made the effort then..?
“Put a lot of effort “. Well, he is a philosopher, neuroscientist and an author.🙂
I feel like speaking this eloquently is just the default state once you put enough time into meditation. Because you don't got a bunch of junk running around in your head lol
@@channiedhillon I understood that: His accumulated personal experiences did it, while being organized by the mind, in an "unware" state. And this doesn't mean we don't exist, but that everything done by us is put together in a seemless way, where we can't especify this ability of evoking thoughts.
@@jonasjrgensen2637 That's a good point! Often when we're flustered, or lost for words, it's because we're trying not to sound stupid. Our concern for others' opinion of our speech gets in the way of a consistent train of thought. Meditation helps filter that out, and other mental noise.
I searched: "Ben Stiller neurologist", and this came up.
LOL
Yawn
@Firstand Last no he hated the gay jews, and rightfully so
@The Power of Nature because you are a charlatan who pretends to be informed.
This gave me a good chuckle
Whatever consciousness is, it is. Explaining it, knowing where it comes from, understanding where it goes when we no longer have it, etc- none of this matters in the least. It's a fact, it stands on it's own ;)
But it's certainly fun to talk about
Understanding consciousness is one of the most important tasks that stands before science. It matters, a lot.
Of course it matters because it's absolutely fundamental.
I never tire of hearing one of the most articulate rational compelling intellectuals around today.
Celebrity pundit on everything from race, identity to politics.
Nietzche said it first: The body tells the I, "Feel hunger!", so the I says "I am hungry!"
I say 'I am hungry' to whom?
Thanks
He was not the first. Many many before him
@@erictko85 who said it before nietche
@@larrytinsley4247 Spinoza did, "We neither strive for, nor will, neither want, nor desire anything because we judge it to be good; on the contrary we judge something to be good because we strive for it, will it, want it, and desire it."
Nietzche was a genius. when I get online, my body tells me, "porn", so I open pornhub.
The Self: Sam Harris is an illusion
Beautiful
@@dan78789 trying to explain something unknowable by the mind, using an out dated and already disproven materialist paradigm is just absurd
@@dan78789 sam harris is a fool and a denier of truth
@@dan78789 but he claims that consciousness arises primarily in the brain, which shows how he is still stuck in his paradigm
@@dan78789 you can't understand the infinite nature of reality with a finite tool such as the human mind, it's incredibly arrogant and "self" centered
Palms sweaty, knees weak, arms are heavy, his consciousness is all but head-y, don't forgetty--he's nervous, but on the surface he looks calm and ready to drop "Ahhmmms" when he's deep down in medi--Meditation, the whole world seems so loud, he opens his mind but the truth's not around. He's chokin' now, everybody's jokin' how he's smarter Ben Stiller, big-nosed breathing--BLAOW!
Okay, got that out of my system. Now I can express just how much I admire your logical processing skills and thoroughly coherent explanations of complicated subjects, including that of consciousness and the "Self." Inspired, intellectual, imperterbable and seamless. Sam Harris, my man. 👏👏👏
The explanation about the self being an illusion at around minute 3:07 is still based on the objective 3rd person experience of reality, excluding the 1st person subjective experience of reality. He acknowledged at the start of the video that full reality can't be determined by the 3rd person view of reality, the external sensor perception in which science seems limited to.
If I am not me, den hoo da hell am I?
Arnold Schwarzenegger.
you hit the hammer on the nail.
With respect.www.guadiantext.org
Roderick Molasar better just be yourself. Everyone else is taken.
derp. :P
Total Recall: Reboot To the New Athiest Age
I've thought about this before, we are the collective experiences of our lives, combined with our chemical and electrical impulses from our brain. It's almost like when we're babies we have no consciousness, we are just a biological machine that is programmed to cry when feeling discomfort, and to release poo and pee. To suck whatever comes close to our mouths and swallow. (Please don't turn these words into a sexual joke)
Then as we grow up and we begin to search for "Identity" we grow up with a lot of different forms of identity, and we experience each and every one of them. Through time, some experiences were pleasant, others were unpleasant, and we began tossing out whatever didn't work for us, and kept whatever did work, and through all that stumbling, all that falling and getting up, little by little we shaped this collective experience and called it "Me".
Me is not one, but all that I have experienced ever since I began to learn. If someone could simply erase everything I've experienced, my consciousness would be erased, and I'd be just a mechanical baby once again.
and then near the end we get cancer
Yes, I agree. Except that a babies brain develops. So, it would be interesting to learn about someone who started life with an adult brain.
ForceOfWizardry
why did you have to say that? LOL exactly happened to me. and then we die. so what's the point in all of it? he he
Kiki Malone
There's no point :) But don't think about it too much ;)
WhoopMQ That's a very reductionist perspective.
Next topic: Ben Stiller is an illusion
Or the solipsistic thoughts in Ben Stiller's mind are correct, and we are the illusion.
It's nice to hear a prominent, scientific atheist confirm a primary Buddhist principle.
He didn't confirm anything, he just stated his theory. You are a victim of conformation bias.
Kristi Marie I was going to say I think he is saying the opposite of what Buddhist teach about the self
@@LePedant Confirmation*
@@athleticaesthetixfitness6937 I thought people stopped correcting others spelling back in 2005.
@@LePedant I thought people would have figured spelling out in 14 years
Why is Ben Stiller trying to pretend he is a philosopher?
justgivemethetruth probably needs the money, and plenty of idiot plebs who will believe him simply because he's famous, and not because the ideas he espouses carries any weight.
@@arminiusofgermania your cynicism might be clouding your judgment
Isaac Preven ...or maybe, roofers hate gravity.
Arminius of Germania I can’t make you understand him, all I can do is suggest you reserve your judgment until you’re confident you do understand what he’s saying. I don’t agree with everything Sam Harris says, but I find his ability to reason through ideas incredibly refreshing and worth the effort. Arguing that he’s in it for the money, however, is undeniably cynical, and dismissing ALL of his ideas for “not carrying any weight”?!??! Cmon bro
Isaac Preven The truth/reality isn't all sunshine and lollipops, nor it is all bad but it is more oftentimes dark, and gritty. Regardless of what life throws your way, you take the good with the bad and you make the most of what you have. Oddly enough, the people who can't accept reality for what it is, and are not resilient to hardship, are mostly the same people who are positive thinkers, and who are more apt to conciously run from life's problems and less likely to acknowledge them, much less to devise solutions to them (to resolve life's problems, you must first acknowledge and accept that they exist, and positive people are not inclined to do that.)
I just feel joylessness when I hear and contemplate whatever Sam Harris says. To be so convinced that there is nothing known or unknown that can't be put into a analytical little box and tied up with a bow is frankly depressing. But then depression isn't real either, right Sam?
Missed the point heavily didnt you?
Convinced is not the issue here, having good reasons is
I think I see what you are getting at about analysis and I agree. Too much analysis destroys meaning, probably because it obliterates subjectivity. I would say that if you go all the way with analyzing, you end up deconstructing all that "irrelevant" stuff like for example love, morality, meaning. There really are things that you can't just label a social construct, explain away the evolutionary logic for how they came to be and conclude that this is all there is to them.
@@ottofrinta7115 because you feel so?
@@bennyandersen742 Because repeatedly observe it happening on both induvudual and social level.
I was pronounced DOA ( DEAD On ARRIVAL ) at a medical center in 1973... No further attempt was made to resuscitate me... More than half an hour passed, and then my Heart started to beat again... During that half hour, I discovered the DIFFERENCE, between the human body, and "LIFE The Real Self"... I found this universe including the human body, to be just a 'STORY', presented in the form of a 'Holographic Simulation', in a Display Register, of "The Processing System of LIFE", where "LIFE The Real Self", ( An Offspring of The LIGHT ) is the OBSERVER.
I woke up from a very vivid dream last night that was heavily emphasised on my insecurities. Immediately upon waking I had this surreal feeling that we really are in a dream during our waking state and that our thoughts do become our reality. It was as if a veil had been lifted and I could see through the fog of the ego. I could subjectively compare the two states of being in a dream and being "awake" and realised that neither of them hold any sort of weight and that they are both paper thin. It was like I realised that I was an actor in this play called life and I'm just playing a role that isn't my true self or spirit. My waking state after this dream felt no more real to me or indistinguishable from the dream itself and I could see clearly through the layer in the mind that helps to facilitate the trick that convinces us that this is all real. What occurred after this dream as I walked to the bathroom to pee was what I can only describe as a psychedelic induced feeling of being on the outside looking in and seeing through the masterful trick that is the self. I understood that this life is not all there is and that something bigger is behind it all, whatever that may be. The feeling in this moment was undeniable and profound.
Mike Jones something very similar happened to me yesterday from a 30 minute guided meditation by Sam in which he basically presents the same ideas in this video.
Yeah, that feeling dissipates after you have been awake for a while and you have to start following the script. No choice but to make choices about how to play the hand that is dealt you as you navigate your way through the game.
Hmm.
I had many lucid and nested dreams, so it is a funny question what difference there is between a dream and the waking state.
I would say it is the immediate influence. Dreams are then, when i'm able to let things happen frequently before the corrresponding thought could be finished.
Btw you can still have those effects in a waking state, for example when several brain functions are heavily overloaded and slowed down.
At least that's how i would describe a psychosis:
Then simulations couldnt be shut off (hallucinations), the low level dream logic kicks in (content thought disorders and cognitive delusions), the overall awareness drops down significantly (dissociation and dissolving of the self) and the internal communication becomes incoherent (formal thought disorders). And the last resort would be either a total reduction of all brain functions (stupor) or a sudden panic attack (acute psychotic breakdown).
And pondering about all this mess despite heavy formal thought disorders and memory problems is called hyperreflection, because you'll fail to generate productive thoughts over and over again, effectively draining even more ressources, overloading yourself more and more and loosing time for calming activities, rituals, sports and other basics.
Psychosis and hyperreflection fit together like adhd and moba games or depression and bargaining thoughts.
I've had a similar experience, it happened randomly, after my brain decided to let me relax from the torture induced by my mental illness, for a while.
If the "self is an illusion" and "life is but a dream" etc.. my simple question is this: WHO IS EXPERIENCING THIS ILLUSION? WHO IS DREAMING THIS DREAM?
You can say (nonsensically) things like "the self is an illusion" but there is still that endless repeating regression of subjectivity that is the self. It makes no sense to try to deny it or call it an "illusion" because illusion or not it's still a REAL experience.
But sure, yes, you may experience "self transcendence" or "no-self" but in that case there is still a mind or an awareness that is aware of or experiencing that experience of "no-self."
And so, if you understand this correctly, that awareness of "not being" or "not having" a self is infact still a subjective experience or a SELF - although arguably a deeper level of self.
This actually makes sense. Not sure why all the top comments are against it. Our subconscious mind often subverts and works against our conscious mind (hard to break bad habits, recurring mistakes, emotional outbursts that don't properly express how we feel, etc.). Thus, the "you" that you perceive is nothing more than a false image or idealized version of yourself where your conscious mind has all of the control. But your conscious mind does not have all of the control. It probably doesn't even have most of it. This is why we admire figures who appear to be as close to total conscious control as possible, because it is so difficult to achieve within ourselves.
The degrading of a sense of self is readily experienced watching a loved one descend into dementia or Alzheimer’s.
Ugh, cris Crisler, dude, you ripped my heart there. I don’t know that specific pain but one very similar .I’m trying to make sense of it and maintain composure. Ha. While my world blew up, I am learning to not be bitter with “reality”. To just get back on my feet is hard. But it’s stories like yours that’s gives me strength. I hope you are well.
I always thought of the self and the ego as something seperate from each other. The self being the experience and the ego being the story you tell yourself about your life.
You don't have a body, you are a body.
If the ego is the story you tell yourself, then who are you telling it to? If the self is the experience, then who is experiencing it?
@@adbewe You are telling the story to yourself via others. I dont have an answer for the last question as it relates to the hard question of consciousness.
@@adbewe you realise there is no inherent self,when you realise there is no inherent self to realise it,there is a conceptual self but it doesn't refer to anything in actual experience,you are awareness
That's a pretty good summary of anatta.
exactly what Alan Watts has been saying since the 50s
which was exactly what Buddhists have been saying since 2500 years ago.
lordoftheflings he is actually heavily influenced from Alan Watts.
Do you have any direct evidence for that? This is not an attack i'm just curious.
+ku lu Watts' books, perhaps?
you don't understand what direct evidence is? I've read Watts as well and yes. Some of Sam's and Alan's ideas overlap. But the nucleus of what they both are saying here came from the Buddha.
i meditate a lot it helps get rid of stress and i much more in control.
control is an illusion
***** control? what need is there to control what I type...I simply choose what to type and I type away?
kboy7777777 i saw this comment after so many months need to start meditation again.
Saral
You're not much in control of your grammar.
If mediation helps you feel less stress good for you. Mediation is placebo effect. It can also be negative thing.
Also I don't think mediation could help control yourself. I control myself fine and I don't meditate.
The only thing mediation can do is less stress that about it. Most people I know who mediate are completely dumb and some of them do drugs and commit crimes. Also most of them are very gullible.
TheNoraa890 lol. Kuch bhi.
Drugs and crimes? Wut.
Sam is one of my spiritual parents. He’s been with me all throughout my journey. I owe him a great deal of gratitude. Thank you Sam!
Brother sanaatan dharma is funding father of yoga meditation 🧘♀️ and spirituality pls
Read maharshi mahesh yogi
Raman yogi
check out Bernardo Kastrup, he will be your spiritual Dad
@@aryangoswami7512 spirituality is beyond sanatan dharma.
This man is genius. I have watched most of his videos, especially his views on religion, it’s mind-blowing.
His thoughts are rational, and his speeches are well articulated.
You must watch his views on Islam, you will get a whole new perspective, he exposes every bit of bigotry which runs through the community.
I'm always curious as to why sam Harris haters dislike him, can some one tell me please?
+Luke Crant Mainly because he criticises Islam, and says that an important reason for the existence of terrorist groups like ISIS or al-Qaeda is because of violent, intolerant passages in the Koran or the Hadiths. He's not wrong, but hand-wringing do-gooders and lefties don't like to single out some religions as more violent than others. It's not politically correct.
+Michael McHugh
LOL. I must congratulate you on bringing the word " unnuanced " to a whole new level.
+Luke Crant
I personally don't like Harris because I find him to be very unnuanced and simplistic in his thought processes. He, like most neo-atheists, tend to repeat the same mantra over and over, without bringing anything conclusive or new to the table. He's logically inconsistent in his arguments (logical fallacies are not hard to find in his speeches), and appeals to his own personal, subjective and unrelated values when attempting to make meaningful arguments. I don't like Harris, and those of his likes, because they're transparent in their acts. Different fruits, same tree, you could say. Not far off from your average puppeter.
Okay then. If you're so smart, then tell us what you disagree with that Harris says. Instead of denigrating the man, point out his fallacies and correct them.
And there is nothing wrong with simplicity. Leonardo da Vinci said "Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication". It's a sign of intelligence if you can explain complex concepts in simple language.
Michael McHugh
Not simplicity in linguistic terms. Simplicity in contrast to complex and nuanced thought processes.
There are many things I disagree with Harris. His appeal to personal values, attempting desperately to veil them as objective and binding.
His attempts to connect terrorism originating from the middle east with Islamic sources (i.e the Hadiths) without adding any scholary context to show that he's done his research. In contrast, it seems as if he's been spending too much time looking for any sort of reference to back his agenda up in google. Child play.
Then there's the typical neo-atheist mantra, which unfortunately, Harris and the likes of his (i.e Richard Dawkins) cannot seem to ever transcend, and in the proccess, look like parrots. " Lack of evidence.. " " Evidence, this.. Evidence that... " It gets old. And it goes further than that, because it is evident that they're using retarded theists' arguments as their basis for saying that, with no actual counters to more nuanced and complex formulated arguments that ironically, have existed for hundereds and years (though perhaps not as developed as they are today). It's the likes of Christopher Hitchens, who can stand and talk for 30 straight minutes without saying anything at all. A parrot at its finest.
Please. I want to see it. Feel absolutely free to provide an argument, or something conclusive and thoughtful that Sam Harris has produced in the context of theology, and I will withdraw all the statements I have spilled about him.
We do not study consciousness, we study the process of consciousness.
When one of you geniuses can show everyone WHY a "mass of neurons" actually thinks in the first place-THEN we will be talking about consciousness.
Right now all we are doing is observing the the brain as it goes through the motions of consciousness.
A noteworthy distinction I think!
Someone elses brain not your own.
people are studying why a mass of neurons thinks.... its called AI...
Wrong sir! how do you know I'm not a sea cucumber dreaming of being a human. PROVE IT TO ME!
Claim that neurons create mind or consciousness is worse than some of those ancient religious scriptures
@@guntsmith Apples and a rotten fruit (if you prefer oranges)
I like the last part where he says that consciousness, despite being viewed as mystical and supernatural, can help us see things for what they are.
I have a friend, named moisseur Lala Princhy, French in origin, who is a self taught professor and critical thinker, and through his experiences of life has basically found himself and let go of his ego. He removed himself from all physical existence and experience. This video is basically what his philosophy in life is. His level of self consciousness is beyond anything I have seen. He has had no physical connection to anything except his nookie sessions, of which he has plenty, from many different races and cultures. Infact he doesn't discriminate when it comes to nookie. In his own words, "every hole is a goal". He has managed to look at things from the outside inwards, something he says he incorporates into his nookie sessions, if that makes sense. He told me that letting go is the easy part, but keeping focused and realising that your consciousness is what ultimately exists is the difficult part. He says without consciousness, humans are just bones, skin and shite. In the early days of his self realisation, he told me that he actually watched himself playing football, a kind of strange, out of body experience if you will.
It was the 2nd half of the game and the defender was having a dart up the middle of the pitch, princhy explained that suddenly, everything went into slow motion. I joked that it might have been because he was cream crackered, but princhy told me no, he just came onto the pitch 5 min prior. He said that he saw himself on the pitch playing football, pointing at players, and as weird as it sounds, it was quite a life changing moment for him, as it led to months of meditation, totally isolated and eating nothing but grapes, cheese and wine. He emerged with a long beard and shoulder length hair. People actually thought he was from Nelson. His only words were, "skids, beach", followed by a hiccup and then total silence. A few hours later he spoke to us and said, "it is not your emotions that control you, it is you that control your emotions, let go and be free, for the caged bird sings a song of melody, to us it sounds like poetry but to other birds it's a cry for help". Then he passed out for several hours. Waking up to the new life he now leads..
Apologies, I digress..
Letting go of your ego, finding oneself and realising that it's all an illusion is something that any individual can achieve. It takes practice and lots of patience.
Peace to all.
It seems logical to me that he only believes he's let go of his ego. All he's done is either deny his connection to himself, or he's redefined what a 'self' is.
Ego is simpy another term for the self...and by what you've shared in your post, his self still exists and he's connected to it and controls it.
@LaMettrian Man To be clear, I don't align with Mr.X's thoughts on the matter, but it seems your attitude is you classify people insane if they hold a different opinion to yours...thus it seems you think yours are always correct, or you believe you have no mental elements clouding your perception and conclusions.
I regard Mr.X hasn't provided any verifiable evidence for his claim of what you quoted...do you have any testable and verifiable evidence for your claims?
@LaMettrian Man So no proof then, it's just a belief.
Plus - generally, folks use ad hominems because they have no actual arguement, so they try to devalue the other as proof their beliefs\conclusions are unsound.
@LaMettrian Man "But don't ask me for proof whne my proof is all around and nothing else has been sensed."
1. What is this proof that is "all around" that you speak of...specifics please?
2. ". . .and nothing else has been sensed."
I assume you're speaking of the 5 senses.
If so, even sight and hearing is extremely limited in their ranges, so claiming there is nothing else beyond what the 5 senses can detect is to me, an unscientific claim, and is more belief based...and by belief, I mean classifying something as fact with out any evidence...just like religious people do regarding whatever god they submit to.
Please describe why you think I have any interest in any god of any religion.
@@Older_Mountain-goat_1984 Self exists in the now and changes constantly according to previous selves progression, not to mention that self is a focal point that serves as an anchor of individuality. I understand his statements that the self seems like an illusion but in fact every single mental recognition about ourselves forms the selves we are. So I give a point to you Carbon.
In the new spiritual practices and methaphysical studies they even declare as an empirical evidence that the self is in fact the recognition of the persona you are by your many many many experiences that shaped you that way. The animating force they called spirit which connects us all ... and in that way we can say we are all one yet our individual consciousness remains intact. It's very deep topics.
Yet I don't seem to understand why some people find comfort in the "all is an illusion" or "I don't even exist" ideology.
I'm pursuing no self and spiritual enlightenment, and I'm surprised and happy to see that a popular figure like Sam Harris actually spreading the message O.o Never expected to see this.
+Yawning Gull May I suggest some videos? Click my YT name and navigate to my "awareness" and "beyond identity" playlists! Not my videos, just a sampling of some that have had a tremendous impact in my life.
***** I like actualized.org's enlightenment videos. It's a youtube channel and a website for self help and enlightenment/spirituality and meditation.
Yawning Gull I've watched a couple of his videos. Good stuff if you're looking to improve the self. I've never had success with that approach, the only thing that really makes a big difference in my life is to drop my identification with myself as a separate individual, sort of like vanishing into the present moment so that there's just awareness of what is without a "me" that exists separately from it. If you're able to take a more psychological self-actualization type of approach then more power to you. That's a difficult path!
***** Why is it difficult? I figured it would be one of the fastest paths I could take. But I'm not really focusing on enlightenment rn anyway I'm doing a lot of self help work because it seems more practical short term for me.
Yawning Gull I say it's difficult for me because it has always failed. Years of therapy, meditation, various methods and philosophies and practices. My sense of shame is extremely deep and I've never been able to overcome it. But about 5 years ago I had a life-altering near-death experience, followed by 2 concussions that kind of miraculously rearranged my brain and solved a lot of my problems. I came to see that nobody is responsible for anything --- we're accountable in that we bear the consequences of our words and deeds, but nobody is "good' or "evil," there is no soul and no self. We're a complex process of trillions of cells that have evolved over billions of years. All of it is just happening, there is nobody behind the scenes controlling anything. I now see "me" as a boundless space in which everything is witnessed. And this boundless space is the same for all of us. When it's witnessing through you it "sees" your experiences. It's impossible to make any sense of it in words, it's just something that became apparent to me and it eliminated all sense of shame, blame, guilt, etc. But i still act like a jackass sometimes because that's what this mind-body organism does. I'd love for that to change, and it's slowly changing.
I didn't fully understand this concept of non-local consciousness until I took mushrooms. I'm not advertising. That's was just how it happened for me.
MsAgnostica Goes Quantum Nope. That's all temporary, be like Guatama buddha, look within.
AGENTARMES I swear, there's a big chance that drugs in generall does some kind of lasting effect on people. Young and old
What kind of mushrooms.
I have had this experience with ingesting weed. It was actually a cleaner experience in the sense that there were no hallucinations other than the body dropping out leaving the consciousness be an immediate part of the surroundings. One can describe it as the soul being embedded into the surroundings. I also have similar experiences after I exercise and I am driving.
Do you mean out of body experience?
I am consciousness pretending to be human , and yet still I haven't figured out reality even after feeling these things are indeed true
the only true thing is the illusion, everything else is an illusion... wait let me circle back 'round again 🤣
"Awareness is known by awareness alone," is the sole irreducible axiom of reality. To put forth a syllable to refute it is to concede....
Sir, I really like what you say.
Absolutely! Consciousness is self and it's conscious that it's conscious. "I think therefore, I am."
His thinking is so so clear.
No, that's an illusion. If you think critically, his thinking is incoherent
Dieter H. Can you give an example?
He doesn't control his mind, yet claims objective knowledge
Dieter H. The knowledge is still true, no?
Since it's logically incoherent it is, of course, not true
Okay, having ingested a wide variety of substances, both prescribed and proscribed, with certain of these substance I experienced a sense of dis-integration of my consciousness. I came to believe that consciousness and the self is an illusion - an emergent property of co-operating processes, but then it dawned on me, who is the me who was aware of having this experience. There was always a me who was experiencing the sense of loss of integration, so behind of these experiences there is a self having them, even the experience of feeling that your self is dis-integrating.
Ever since I realized the self and free will are an illusion I have been completely liberated from so many bad thoughts and feelings, thanks sam
I don't really agree with the notion that free will is an illusion because that would imply that there's a set path for us to follow and I don't believe that. Determinism always sounded like a cop out for people who have given up. Free will exists in the decisions and choices you make. As for the self I believe that there isn't one sure but that we are just a collection of hormones, experiences, chemicals, and our environment.
@@Foogi9000 If there is no self then what is "it" that's free willing?
Ever since you "realized"? Sorry that is free will.
@@ExistenceUniversity realization is the complete opposite of freewill. You cannot control when you realize something, and you cannot control what you realize, every realization you've ever had has been completely spontaneous and it's content was unknown to you until after you realized it, so if you can't control when it happens and you can't control what it is, what sort of freewill are you exerting here?😭
@@jj-mcgreezies How did you get the knowledge to realize anything and why does my brain take in all the same information and disagree with you? Who is programmed correctly? I argue that I have free will and can focus my mind to let information in or keep it out, that is my free will, to focus and take in or to evade and blank out. Because of this, I can argue that I am right because I focus on reality and can make knowledge from reality. You, on the other hand, cannot say anything is correct or wrong because your argument requires that reality is only what electricity signals tell you it is. You cannot be wrong or right for the same reason a computer cannot be wrong or right, it can only provide the glimpse of some of the attributes available to it. Which of us is programmed wrong?
I found the title and rush in and mute the video and then I laugh together with the comments.
Thank you, its so much fun here.
who are you... me? 🤣🤣
I like that he does differentiate here between what consciousness is vs what the qualitative experience of consciousness is. One is actually simple in definition, being an intelligent system that is actively aware of something and actively making decisions based upon that awareness. A virus is conscious, though in an extraordinarily simple way compared to humans. The other, the qualitative aspect of being conscious, is the truly complex one to fully understand, the why and how we feel and experience consciousness as we do, and how is that different from how a dog, a mouse, an ant, a plant, a fungus, or a virus experience their consciousness.
This whole video is a completely subjective experience.
+Seth Frazer Correlating with certain brain states...:)
+Seth Frazer And yet there are objective things to be said about it. Science can tell us things about this video which are as close to objective as we can currently get.
+Paul Proudlock
You know, according to materialists you could never ever see a brain; only a virtual representation of a brain. The actual brain is supposedly made of a supposedly existing woo-substance called matter. Unfortunately I don't have enough faith to believe in that kind of things. ;)
+Seth Frazer Well, if it's not objective at least we can act as if it was.
+Seth Frazer as is your sense of commenting on it O.O
An honest, intelligent, loving and caring human being, who has a unique way of getting to the bare essence of anything... Where the only thing remaining is truth, naked and alone, for those who choose to see or share it.
I think he is a honest interlocutor who I find interesting and helpful whether I completely agree with what he’s saying in the moment or not.
Sam looks so damn bored here, while I've probably made 5+ faces being blown away by how well he puts these superbly interesting yet relatable ideas into such beautiful words.
That’s a distinctly Asian belief. I agree that evil dissolves when the ego is revealed as an illusion, but I think there can be a world without evil in which everyone retains their personality.
It's like the paradox of time in physics. The real question is why we experience time in this forward moving way.
Der Aua its a different question but I agree, the experience of the arrow of time is connected to the feeling of the self, and as fundamental
Because of clocks
My thought is that time is constantly moving forward and backward, but we are only able to experience its forward movement. As time moves backward we can only "un-experience" things. It seems obvious that we would not be able to experience the backward movement of time.
Ketamine can fix that.
@ what if we start first by asking what is we. Is it each one of us' selfs/illutions created by our physical bodies (vessels)? Since we experience everything through our senses including time. Maybe the problem is just that those materials that constitute us are not well equipped or simply they lack the capacity to perceive reality (time )in its real form. Maybe if we had other means to perceive reality other than our bodies we could perceive a bigger picture of reality. Sorry for my English though. It's my first time into this amazing subject. I think I wrotr the obvious, something thst you already know but I wanted to express my thoughts
The personal "I" is the illusion.
The personal "I" is "Identity."
The personal "I" suggests separation
THE PERSONAL "I" IS EGO
❤
The impersonal "i" is reality,
NO separation exists,
Equation: "I" IS "X"
where "I" is "experience," and "X" is "the one who experiences."
I, me, we, you, they, them, those are ALL reflections of the "self, "I" consciousness
"I" is "X", ALL is Existence ❤
If everyone has this "ego" and some claim to lose it. Is it possible that losing your ego is the illusion? Honest question. Whos to say that the self isnt an illusion but a genuine thing that we just dont understand?
The two types of comments on videos about consciousness:
Consciousness is the result of the great cosmic oneness astral projecting into a past life and harmonizing with the songs of the stars as it rides the great unicorn of enlightenment.
Thanks to my IQ of 352, I have recognized that consciousness is a mere illusion that arises from quantum oscillations of dark energy in the microtubules of the nucleus acumbens which can be clearly observed when the wave function collapses in the 8th dimension.
Oh RUclips 😂😂
They are both essentially saying the same thing.... life is so God damn beautiful and bizarre
It’s NOT illusion! Because it needs SOMEONE having an illusion, but there is NO SOMEONE..
Everyone knows that.
Both are simultaneously true and false at the same time.
Yeah... I always say that.
I'm happy with Sam's new content. For a minute it felt like he had atrophied into someone who needed to be right all the time.
Basically, without the self our experience of the world becomes pure non-judgemental awareness.
Can’t help feeling like I’m listening to one of his meditation tapes whenever I hear his voice 😌
All these people getting up in arms over Sam's phrasing, when in other conversations I've hear him broach the topic more precisely by adding a "seems to be" in front of the verb phrase.
"The self seems to be illusory" is a vastly different statement and one that I'd say more accurately reflects his position.
True but it's being stated and accepted by many as a scientific fact. I wish they made it clearer that it's not. It's basically just a philosophy and worse, mixed with religion
I just today had an experience which I might call a "headless/selfless" experience. I have been meditating and listening to a lot of lectures on the subject but was having a hard time grasping the concept of illusory self.
So tonight I was just driving and thinking about this when suddenly it dawned on me! There was nothing spectacular about the view I was having through my windshield but my experience was different. I was seeing the street lamps and the trees like I have never seen before. It's was as if my stream of consciousness was vivid and clear as crystal. I swear I was crying and hair on my body were standing erect.
The purpose I drove for was to get some drinking water so when I reached the station and the guys who severed me came to my window to get the money, I felt nothing but pure love for him. A total strange, whom I never met before!
Sorry if it reads like a dribble but I was just being honest..
As if the "self" perfectly aligns with the body and experiences the world without subjective filters is what some call moments of clarity. I've heard about people that meditate to achieve that state fro longer periods, eventually live in such state. I've heard some other people achieving this state through mind altering chemicals.
Actually I tried magic truffles (psilocybin). I know what you are talking about
With respect.www.guardiantext.org
Well actually you experienced a heightened sense of awareness. A purely mental phenomenon. There is no need to explain it in terms of the fictious " Self ".
You didn’t lose yourself, you lost your ego and only partially.
i've listened to this several times, i've read the transcript, i also read and re-read the chapter on Self in his book Waking up. I still don't get it. Why is Self an illusion? The fact that my mind cannot be dissected and put into one particular cell inside my brain doesnot negate the fact that i am a separate being which experiences and thinks.
Can anyone explain this to me?
The claim that you’ve described physiologically can also be experienced subjectively. Committing to a meditative practice for 1-2 weeks might give you
a glimpse of it. 4 g of magic mushrooms will convince you beyond a doubt.
If you tune into your mind’s sensory input, breath, thoughts, feelings, & experience you can see that it’s all just the contents of consciousness. Thoughts and experiences appear in consciousness the same as the ear hearing noise or the sensation of breathing in your nose. There’s no Thinker or Experiencer required, only consciousness.
The self is not the bedrock you think it is, it’s actually a house of cards than can be slowly deconstructed or suddenly dissolved , depending on your approach. It’s why both Buddhists and people on psychedelics claim that they’re seeing things as they truly are. We walk around our entire lives assuming the self is the center, when really it’s just an ongoing hallucination.
@@acslater017 Thank you for replying. This made me think. I do meditate, though not regularly. And as far as psychedelics go - maybe i will try someday. But i really want to understand this intellectually, as well as maybe i will someday understand it experientially.
What confuses me is that you describe consiousness as if it doesn't belong to anyone. It's a place where thoughts, feelings, experiences appear. But if a separate being is not there to analyze those thoughts, to process the sensations, then who is aware of the objects in the consiousness?
@@syanushka Physiologically, yes consciousness is contained in/produced by the brain and the brain obviously belongs to someone.
But in terms of the software, you have the org chart flipped. Consciousness is not held by the self; rather the sense of self is one thing among many (breath, thoughts, feelings, etc) that appear in consciousness. Consciousness is the prior condition, the irreducible bedrock, not the self. This can be observed jn meditation and psychedelics because consciousness continues to observe inputs while the sense of self dissolves. Call it disembodied, third person, objective, Anatta, non-self, etc.
@@acslater017 very good analogy of hardware vs software. Thank you for taking the time to explain. Let me digest this :)
@@syanushka seeing through the illusion of the self is a huge first step and mind-blowing insight once you grasp it. It’s like seeing through The Matrix :) Good luck
He's literally my favorite person in the world to listen to
Especially during daily meditation on Waking Up
You would enjoy his debate with William lane Craig.
This guy is literally a fluke and if you new anything about philosophy you'd feel dumb for listening to him.. like I do at this moment
@@anthonydouglas1240 I agree. His emphasis on experience and consciousness actually gives ground for the self in this argument.
@@anthonydouglas1240 Has he ever claimed to be a philosopher. He's a neuroscientist talking about neuroscience. That's like saying that any professional rock climber wouldn't regard him as a rock climber. But has he ever even claimed to be one?
this video fucked my whole shit up
This goes back to a thought I had when I was a kid: I was at once convinced that when a person died, if you could use a weight measurement system sensitive enough, you could detect the weight of the “soul” or “spirit” that exited. I thought this was a scientific fact that either was already established or might one day be. Funny how I was having existential-type thoughts as a young kid...that I considered the existence of a physical spirit (which sounds like, and likely is, an oxymoron) with dimensions. Then again, in those days, I had no idea that God wasn’t an established scientific reality. I was late into my teens before I realized that the existence of god was in dispute.
There is no self, soul or spirit.
James Richard Wiley Yes, I know that. 👍🏼
@@JamesRichardWiley who said that?
How did you evidentially establish that?
22 grams
It is not that there is no Self but that there is only One Self which does not like to be by itself hence the why of Life: Love.
I'm a christian yet I love is incredible knowledge and his articulation.
You get it. It's awesome to have other beliefs and to just listen to others' with curiosity and no judgment.
His knowledge is false though because there is a real self. Ask a person who believes there is no self this: What evidence would you require to be convinced that there is a self? I guarantee they won't be able to answer, because they will accept no evidence because they've already made up their mind. Ask them this: If emotions, thoughts, intentions and consciousness doesn't convince you you are a self then what would convince you? Ask: Do I need to not have emotions, thoughts, intentions and consciousness in order to be a self? Do I need to be a brick to be a self or something? Only these kinds of questions have a chance of planting seeds and waking them up. Argumentation just will not work. You need to create doubt in them and get them to reason within themselves, True enlightenment is becoming more aware of of just how much of a self you are and just how amazing and transcendent consciousness is. It shows there truly is an ultimate mind behind the universe (namely God), who is also personal. If Sam Harris thinks his self is an illusion then how does he know any of his thoughts are true if he thinks there is no self to truly think them true? How does he know that the chemical reactions in his brain that makes him think "there is no self" are being accurate and revealing the truth? He simply doesn't know and cannot know. His chemical reactions could be producing thoughts that are completely wrong and he has no self to assess them right. This is why naturalism defeats itself.
Imagine you were born a genius. You live the life of a genius. It is the only reality you know. Now imagine you came into this world a slug. It is the only life you know. I can fathom the life of the former, but not the latter. Which has the deeper mind? Which mind is more opaque?
This brings to mind Buddhism. My inability to fathom the consciousness of a slug, which probably has only three senses: touch, taste, and some rudimentary sight which only senses light but not color (I'm guessing)--allows me to have more compassion on the slug. The reason for this is deeply intuitive and not something I can explain in rational terms, but it may have to do with pity. Anyway, the Buddha would not have taught this, because the desired effect (increased compassion) depends on my ignorance of the slug's internal state of mind--which seems to be purely sensory. This dependence on ignorance runs counter to the ethos of Buddhism.
Self is the part of me that hurts when you hurt.
It's not, because slugs don't have any linguistic awareness. And besides, opiates induce dreaming.
But I don't think they're dreams are the same as ours, because our dreams are informed by complex symbology which goes back to language.
good way of putting it. You could also refer to a different but related set of concepts known as the Dunning-Kruger effect. And pair that with something that is the opposite of that, among strong thinkers, that has a different cause and may not have a name.
Joel Fry you may want to invest some time learning thermodynamics.
In a way Sam shuts down his own argument. First, he explains that subjectivity is necessary to understanding objectivity. Then, he counters that by saying subjective concious experience cannot be extrapolated to the objective world. Of course one's own experience can speak of an objective truth larger than ones self. :)
Objective science obviously works but philosophy is still logically stuck in the "I" Perplexing!
+I see good ... Hey Donkey ;))
Science is not a religion.
Of course science is the best way to kill millions of people, because science IS THE BEST WAY TO DO ANYTHING!! haha ;))
Science is the best way to cure diseases. It's the best way to make our lives easier. It's responsible all the technology that we all use.
Religion is brainwashing.
Religion is illogical.
Hopefully, one day "the god of abraham" will be in the dust of history books as Zeus is.
+I see good ...
"Science is a systematic enterprise that builds and organizes knowledge in the form of testable explanations and predictions about the Universe. In an older and closely related meaning, "science" also refers to this body of knowledge itself, of the type that can be rationally explained and reliably applied."
"A religion is an organized collection of beliefs, cultural systems, and world views that relate humanity to an order of existence. Many religions have narratives, symbols, and sacred histories that aim to explain the meaning of life, the origin of life, or the Universe. From their beliefs about the cosmos and human nature, people may derive morality, ethics, religious laws, or a preferred lifestyle."
+123lowp
Unable to read between the lines, I see.
+Jesse Thomas
"First, he explains that subjectivity is necessary to understanding objectivity."
No, he never said that, here's the correct edit:
First, he explains that subjectivity, as well as objectivity, is necessary to understand consciousness.
"be identical to the sphere of experience" I like that
His distinction between “consciousness” as irreducible, subjective, first person experience and “the self” as having a unitary center of experience is highly ambiguous, and a lot seems to hinge on that. Perhaps he clarifies this in his books? Anyone familiar with the details here?
Yes
Check out nonduality. When you experience pure consciousness, all the concepts, including the concept of "I", collapse. The intuitive boundary between subjectivity and objectivity, collapse. So you become one with everything. You can experience this with various religious practices, The best one being meditation, a most direct path which relies on no external factor and theoretically maintain it (aka. enlightenment). To give you a taste of that, remember when you staring a word for an extended time, the word become alienated to you? Now imagine that times million and expand to the whole world around you.
most comments here demonstrate a lack of comprehension of the english language.. he is not saying what you think he is saying, watch the video again.. he qualifies his statements very carefully!
+LemonsAndSalt would you characterize yourself as ambiguous and inflammatory? why are you ragging on me? and saying things about sam harris that can be disproved by reading any page of any book written by harris? doesn't my original comment seem even more relevant to you now? :(
+LemonsAndSalt you've thrown multiple insults at us now, but (believe it or not) there are two assertions you make: (1) sam harris' head is up his ass, and (2) the discussion about the self is an old one. with the latter i agree, many interesting debates are old and span many schools of thought. i take this moment to congratulate you on this unique observation.
the assertion that his head is up his ass is a mechanically very difficult procedure, not impossible, but unlikely. i would only like to say that at the time of filming this video clip, his head was most self-evidently not up his ass. the evidence is against you here. please forgive me for staying on topic and addressing your only unambiguous position. if you would like to continue arguing whether his/our/everyone's head is up their asses, please continue in private by emailing me at john.william.james.pifferthy@areyousalty?.net. i'm sure you will agree that this thread is already noxious enough for us to close it.
+LemonsAndSalt no shit it hasn't been resolved...there is no "resolution" to this argument. it is THE resolution. also it's been ongoing because half the world is still "religious."
+LemonsAndSalt Upon reading your delightful comments, filled with rage, I'd like to point out a few mistakes you've made. Firstly, and most importantly, Sam Harris acknowledges that these are age old arguments in the clip. He's doing them credit by regurgitating them using modern context to show that they're still valid. Secondly, you shouldn't really start slandering commenters for using bad grammar when you yourself have fallen victim to the same ills. For example, "part of a frivolous wave of jerkoff" would be 'frivolous wave of jerkoffs.' I wish you a nice week ahead as you've clearly just had a bad one!
+LemonsAndSalt
Jesus Christ, what a ridiculous comment. I think anyone will free to assume that you're projecting after reading it. First of all, you're not dealing with Harris's arguments at all, suggesting that you don't really understand them. You're not even stating what exactly you disagree with (you just say stuff like "this shit" and "it"). And, I'm sorry, but has the field of neuroscience been around for 2,000 years? And when people respond to you with roughly the same amount of substance you climb upon your high horse as if you had done anything more than author a big paragraph's worth of insults.
What you're saying is -anyone's guess- like saying that Charles Darwin just rehashed old arguments because ancient Greek philosophers toyed around with the idea of some kind of evolution.
if the self is an illusion who is responsible for our actions?
atoms interaction
If you don't exist, how do you know this?
Dieter H. You are a mass of atoms
How do you know there are "atoms" and "masses" of things?
Dieter H. science
The selfless experience happened and
became embedded in my self's memory.
I phrase it in that odd way to focus attention on the fact that,
it wasn't that my self was revealed to be non existent,
rather,
it was as though valves in the myriad channels conducting
sensory input to
my evaluation-for-relevance-to-my-self processes
had all closed thereby stopping relevance evaluation.
So now sensory input continued unencumbered reaching and modulating
the being-conscious-process and getting recorded.
It is the memory record that permits me to talk about it.
I call the being-conscious-process my self.
The fact that 'process' is an abstract notion i.e. immaterial,
means non existent from a materialist perspective.
Is that what is meant by illusion?
I think a lot of people get this point confused. The "self" is not unreal or non-existent; it's a manufactured reality--created in perception. It's a mere belief or perspective that has no substance. In other words, there's no agent experiencing reality and there's no one part of the brain that is controlling "your" life. That "unity" that we feel that is behind our perceptions, thoughts, etc. is an illusion that occurs when the two brain hemispheres communicate with one another. Unless you buy into the notion that the self is an immaterial essence (which you may), then neuroscience shows that contrary to our intuitions about our identity, we're more like universal processes of awareness than independent things with a command center.
I remember being pathologically being damaged by ocd once, now with cognitive therapy I reliaze what a shit show I once was
How does it work. I’m thinking about trying CBT?
After reading waking up and using the app to meditate I see myself very differently ,I sometimes literally feel I am in the head of a giant version of myself which may or may not exist in some reality of which I have never seen nor felt . I also see infinite mirror type projections of myself, how strange.
When I used to meditate I felt like I was part of the universe. Almost like I was a higher power.
" self is an illusion" and who said it , " An illusionary self".
what?
"self is an illusion"... So why can't I end your life, if there's no such thing as "self"?
Paradoxical ... must be true
lol, *you're*....you might be right though :P
@@wanda1396
That is the most idiotic thing said after scias...
"..and it just so happens that this experience of self-transcendence does link up with what we know about the mind through neuroscience to form a plausible connection between science and classic mysticism, classic spirituality.
..your experience of the world actually becomes more faithful to the fact. It's not a distortion of the way we think things are at the level of the brain. It actually - it brings your experience to a closer register with how we think things are."
Listening to this guy makes me remember a book called Gulliver's travels. In the book, Gulliver meets a race of people who think they are so smart, they're actually stupid.
Thank you.
We're all allowed to have our own opinion. I'm just wondering if you think your much smarter? Seems like you're just keeping the narrative going.
He just used a lot of words to say almost nothing.
@@N30HuM4n
Would be interesting to know what you think he said.
Sam Harris, since I got into meditation a couple years back, (while in the midst of being depressed/anxious) I had the amazing but somewhat confusing realization, that "I" am just the observer of my thoughts. With this newfound "mind", I now throughly enjoy silence, but am finding difficulty in finding my passion, also trouble with conversing, mainly with family and friends, much easier with stangers. I have an idea as go why that is.
I'm really curious on your opinion about manifesting things into your being, and weather or not you apply it into how you manage things. You are an amazing Spirt, Sam Sir! greatly appreciate you! Ah what I would do to have a conversation/interview with you! ~PeACE~
You are existence experiencing existence. The universe cannot exist without something experiencing it just like we cannot exist without something to experience(the universe). In the same sense that light cannot exist with darkness to contrast it and vice versa. We simply are the manifestation of the universe so the universe can be aware of itself. Which is us being aware of the universe. We are the universe
@idklol9408 well said. To many words tho 😅
@@patrickkissane4341 sorry I get very passionate ab this topic without even trying to be 😂
Awesome, stay passionate...even more so, remain compassionate and humble. ✌️❤️
If the ego is an illusion, then who decides it's an illusion?
Do you know who's asking?
They opinion of the ego being an illusion is a subjective perspective that you can choose to see it as. In reality there is no difference betewen an expirence that is real than an expirence that is an illusion, becuase all expirences are as real as you percive them to be. Sam Harris is stating that understanding the ego as an illusion benefis you when attemping to divorce yourself from the idea of the self in order to analyze the world around you properly.
Let me tell you: NOBODY
+Jeremiah Cameron Yes, but you don't know.
+nadjim73 That's a logical fallacy. If Nobody is asking, then the question wouldn't of been asked. Who am I? (I)=A human being texting on this computer that is made up of a body, tissues, organs, bones, etc. That has a conscious awareness and can think for itself.
Saying that there is no self is like saying 2+2=5. It's erroneous. Yes, you could say that my personality and thoughts etc are just bundles of information that is being inputed and outputed inside the mind of a human like a robot. But for you to say there's No Self. My god man, who is asking the god damn question? You are. You is You. Simple as that. It's what the word implys. You. I. whatever
I learned this too... there's only One being in the entire universe and we are its infinite reflections .... 💖💖💖🕊️🕊️🕊️🕊️
Better not be that fairy tale religion stuff lol
@@reggie8370 Its equally absurd to believe in god or not believe in god if there is no god . We are an accumulation of cells with no purpose and that includes our brain. Truth and logic does not even exist outside our heads and truth can be distorted into any way a person can. It's just brains fizzing neurochemicals. So whether you believe in God or not, truth itself is all a fairytale if there is no god.
@@cockroachv If all conscious life ceased right now, would facts still exist about the universe? Would the planets still move along their orbits in mathematically verifiable ways? Would the sun still be 1 AU from Earth, and be comprised of helium and hydrogen?
Two things I never understand when someone talks about this. 1: If this is true, are they happy about it? 2: If this is true, why we do anything in life then, besides fullfilling our basic needs? Or why do we fulfill even those?
1. Yes, it's quite a pleasant experience to be honest. Without this self that we have in our heads, a lot of the forms of suffering we create disappear. A broader experience opens up to us, one not so conditioned by everything and in that, greater freedom and joy. It really cannot be shown intellectually, but if you experience it you will see.
2. Why not? Why do objects fall to the ground? The experience we have is happening, and it has a quality too it. It can be unpleasant or pleasant and other things in between. You can ask why do anything, but also why not do anything?
@@bentleymayes1579 It is just the unintentional cruelty of evolution, where a type of animal that is aware of it's own death is able to evolve and I msyelf think that is a mistake. I can't really figure out how to get around this.
Life was probably "made" for the normal people who are either believers or materialists who are still happy for their brief lives. Because I am somewhat emotionally (or maybe mentally) unstable I belong to neither and I'm not sure I can decide myself to be happy about life. There are some for whom life is useful and there are some who are scrap like myself, but in our species the scrap survives too since we evolved morals. Science don't seem to mind much about the scrap. Here you can see the scrap complaining about existence 😂
@@dr.tre90 do you hate yourself?
Did you guys see that talking brain ?
I watched the entire video - I didn't see a talking brain.
There is a brain in formaldehyde in a local medical store close by to me.
It's never spoken a word as far as I know.
Next thing they will tell us is that the brain forms your character.
Pk Ralph I don't think the Buddhist Sympathizer or William Burts understand what you're saying. And I think Sam was trying to say that isn't the case, but I have to admit... you make a pretty good argument
It sounds funny but it's true, that's literally how it is
A shame to you. Do you not realise that the "talking brain" could not have even one single word to utter not until after some what 3 years of which is enough for the consciousness to have gathered something to project, hence the collection of behaviour as a self???
"Science cannot solve the ultimate mystery of nature. And that is because, in the last analysis, we ourselves are a part of the mystery that we are trying to solve."
Max Planck
"By denying scientific principles, one may maintain any paradox."
Galileo Galilei
"Hm.. Uh.. Haph-haph hah"
A caveman
@@constantavogadro7823 finally, some sense.......I am Grrooot !
One of the highest quality (content) video I've seen these days which is also short.
This woman had more insightful things to say about consciousness than anyone else because she lived its potential through to its completion beyond consciousness. Sometimes you can only know what something was by its absence. Bernadette Roberts was the greatest expert on Self and consciousness of the 20th and 21st centuries. Enjoy!
I think that consciousness is that part of intelligence can be defined as the capacity to compute, abstract and to discern the objects of our physical world and thus make a choice that best suits some parameters, so this is where action comes from.
These parameters can either be logical, (like when you program an algorithm in a computer to choose between the higher of two interger, the action itself being the choice according to the parameter, which is strictly determined), or merely subjective, based on individual preference, which on a neuroloical scale I believe is highly determined by a more complex series of parameter, chemical reactions caused by physical states and so on.
Well, our actions, influenced by our subjective parameters of choice, or preferences, which are determined by our consciousness and are therefore malleable, they are subject to change given external (environmental in a general sense) and internal factors. This malleability of our preferences and therefore motivations given our complex capacity to observe and discern, our conciousness, is what make us free.
We have a physically determined free will.
(I personally fear the idea that everything I do, I have ever done and will ever do is something I have no choice, the human mind is a much more complex system that cannot be simplified in such a way).
Salvador Militello while your brain is functioning obviously the perceptions that it receives are legitimate ones and so you are a being at that point however when you lose consciousness say from a brain tumor or a disease there for that part of your being ceases to exist obviously that would be true
>the capacity to compute, abstract and to discern the objects of our physical world and thus make a choice that best suits some parameters
Computers can do all of this besides the abstract part, though one could argue that numbers in a computer are all abstract.
The consciousness is a result of activity of mind to know what's going on. lost of consciousness mean mind stop working to know what's going on. Mind is some kind of software but run on the brain.
Self is not an illusion. Self is All. Illusion is everything that is not-Self.
He is defining self as the ego and not like you are from Advaita Vedanta.
I’m obsessed with concepts of the self, and ego, but one thing I’m struggling to reconcile is this:
The self does not exist and we (the universe of energy) is an intricately connected whole. Where does moral fiber play into this narrative?
Where’s the motivation for me to stop smoking, stop harming others, help others in need etc. My brain has encoded a moral compass, and arguably it’s just another mechanism like hands and feet... but it is fallible
It gets addicted to certain stimuli, and can become destructive in many ways. I’m finding hard to link morality to the overarching concepts discussed here...
In some eastern doctrines, notably Zen or Indian Upanishad, is well taught about the illusion of the 'self' in which we live, as opposed to the realization of the 'True Self', as this is called our true nature, that may be experienced basically by attaining a state, more or less prolonged, of no-attachment.
Yes. You will spend your entire life chasing things that you will lose when you die.
I've felt that, numerous times, namely the loss of the feeling I have a center, an ego, a self. I was scared shitless everytime I had to bounce back immediately by trying to conjure that feeling of a center back, fiercely at that. Why? Because I felt I could do anything, be anyone. I saw a side of myself that I've never seen before, a limitless potential. However, I also saw that my ego was trying to make me normal, fit into society and I was afraid I would be outcast and shamed if I left my true self seen and realized it because I was scared that I didn't know what I could become, I could he bad. It's so strange. It feels like you enter this infinite space, you lose you weight, your orientation, like you merge with everything and become one. When I'm back I subconsciously long for that freedom again, but deep down I'm also afraid of it. Perhaps that's why my life is a constant back and forth. It's so weird and I still don't know what to do.
I had a very similar experiences. Don't give up the idea that you are pure potential as a being. However, you should also consider that you are realizing your potential by being human. Potentials must be realized to be :)
@Tove Lo Do not expect your inner life to be stable like external world. It is totally different field needed to be perceived differently but I don't mean that there will be always a gap. Just be aware that the only one who can fill that gap is you because you are the only one who have access to both sides. It is also normal to experience it in variety of intensity at the age of 16 because the potential just starts to release. It gets better when you start to build something out of the chaos of your inner life. Use this time to construct the center you lacked but don't expect it to lasts forever :))
this feeling has happened to me to. I view it as a test of your real character, for example if you are not really a good person then you could fail the test to stay good.
"Irreducibly subjective", yet is 100% communicable.
It's not, he didnt say that lol.
Garrett Portwood they’re getting to the duality of the me, ego, “I” sensation. It’s completely subjective, you’re the only one who knows what it’s like to be you, no one will ever feel it the way you do, and that applies to everyone who’s ever lived forever.
@@GarrettP8 Yes, thats exactly what he said.
@@Thegooob95 The communications we have that occur without sound or specific signals is in essence the intuitive understanding of what its like to be another. I dont believe that it is impossible to do so, assuming communication by means not physically manifested is something that is natural to humanity and not particular individuals. When you look at everyone and everything as an extention of what your existence is, you tend to melt barricades that Harbour some strange experiences. I feel like that is the beginning of truly understanding each other, and our consciousness and the understanding of it. I concur with the idea that we are a single consciousness expressed in individual fashion, to get gnostic, like a drop of water in the ocean, except that the water knows how to be concurrent, and we as humans refuse to work towards a better understanding of each others flow. Terribly pseudoscientific and spiritual, nonetheless... even in secular laminar science there is a common conception. The universe is under no obligation to make sense to any single person... with that, i also concur.
The self is not an illusion It is a meaningful word , that poeple understand , when it is used . It refers to a common object , a concept referred to often in communication when the words I , you , him , her , it , are used . Myself , yourself , himself , herself , etc. To say it is an illusion is to deny the utility of evolving languages .
I see self as just your being conscious, your experience of being conscious is your experience alone and not anybody's else's and that is what makes you an individual self. You can't say the self is an illusion anymore then you could say your being conscious is an illusion.
Self is what consciousness feels like from the inside.
Melinda Green what about from the outside
Where did you get this line from?
You can’t feel consciousness from the outside though?
gray & proud hahahahahah
gray & proud
Hahahahaha🤣😅
Here’s an analogy that could help grasping the idea of ego transcendence: There’s no subjective or ego experience in the Internet. That is, the Internet does not have the experience of being a particular device in a specific spacetime location. The Internet is spacetimeless, and that is the experience our devices "have" as long as they are connected to the Internet.
Now, if all the devices get disconnected and the Internet is interrupted, they become the spacetime plurality of individuals that made the Internet possible. Which means that the subject or ego experience that Harris is talking about emerges. They are not spacetimeless anymore. Now, here’s something else that you can get from this analogy:
Let’s say that we disconnect all the devices that make the Internet possible, which causes a journey characterized by a constant debate on whether they belong to an omniscient and omnipresent being, the Internet itself, or if they’re just a bunch of ignorant and limited devices all over the planet. The journey ends with the recovery of the omniscient and omnipresent Internet, which occurs after our computers discover, scientifically, that they’re designed to be connected to one another. They had discovered this reality before in the fields of religion and philosophy, and science only catched up to complete the journey.
You guys see what I’m saying here? Are we headed to recover the Internet, ego transcendence, God, whatever we call it? Is this what our history has been all about? Anyway, I got this analogy from a book titled Realism for Restards, by Can Antunez, if anyone out there has read it also. thanks
I just wanna know what do u smoke and where do u buy it from???
this is just new age bs, we are probably gonna move past this to a newer philosophy
3:06 krishnamurti. (truth). sam is insightful! great work sir. Thank you!!