BTW for those who are getting pissy in the comments.. Remember that it's just an opinion. Purposely made to give another perspective. I am NOT slating engineers who still mix or have mixed on NS10's. That's just stupid. I'm not shitting on history, all I'm doing is providing context to those new to the game. Trying to explain why they were or are still popular but at the same time adding a bit of food for thought as so much of the modern community is so dumbed down that they'll genuinely just buy what a youtuber tells them to without any research or context behind it. NS10MS and avantones aren't cheap (£800-£1100) and all I'm giving a different angle towards the product to make people think a bit. I'm shocked at how many people didn't watch the whole video or watch it properly and have decided to go in the cream puff about it and decide that I was stating that experienced engineers who have the journey and context behind them are wrong for mixing on NS10. The video is NOT aimed at you. However if you feel that me giving advice to those starting out affects your credibility then you need to stop being so insecure over an opinion. If you have a solid career mixing on ns10s then this video isn't for you and you shouldn't be bothered about one guys opinion on the Internet. I'm simply sharing the advice that I was personally given by industry professionals in my circle. I think it would be pretty shitty to take that advice and not share it to those looking to invest a heavy whack on them. BUT it is just opinions. No right or wrong answers. If you can't handle one person's opinion or perspective cause it differs from your own feelings then you need to grow the fuck up and learn to be an adult. It's just one guy on the Internet sharing an opinion. Doesn't badly impact anybody, put anybody in danger or intentionally mean harm to anyone. Its an opinion about a speaker.... Let that sink in Saying that, Whats your experience of NS10's? 🤓
Pair them with a decent 12"Sub, and adjust the sub to only give you the low end that the NS10 won't, make sure to be in phase. Get the speakers powered by a powerful amp, I got mines on a Yamaha P2500. Get them placed like your main monitors, not inside your main monitors. From my experience they work well roughly 1,20m - 1,5m apart. Use monitor stands, decoupled from your desk, and adjust the height of your monitor stands so the tweeter is slightly above your ears. Listen to great sounding mixes on them... and treat them as your main monitors, don't run immediately to find a more pleasing speaker. Use good converters, and don't use room correction software! I think you can get great mixes out of them!
It is great that you actually showed the waterfall plots showing one of the main reason NS10 are useful. Not only mentioning its transient response but supported by facts. It would have been nice though if you had referenced the source, which is a paper written by Philip Newell et al. (the man who recorded and mixed Tubular Bells on top of being an acoustic designer for high end studios for many years, and also speaker designer). Have a kook at Reflexion Arts page, which is the company in which he was working for last years after Virgin Records. They sell equipment, build high-end speakers and design recording studios. They are in my home town. I have got a pretty good relationship with them :)
I use my singular ns10 as a mono reference to switch to occasionally. It's basically sports car suspension that shows you all the bump's in the road. Not all about freq response kids. The impulse response is incredibly useful.
I got a pair and absolutely love them. I actually even got the original cardboard box they came in back in the early 80'ties. Not every speaker is for every ear and you need to learn them, and it can take a while. Once you have they're actually (for me) a tool I can't mix without... I'm sure a lot of people hate them, but the test of time has proven lots more actually have and still rely on them., than there are haters..
Dunno, when I say every industry mixer I spoke to advised against them, it was every one. I obviously didn't speak to every mixer but you are talking at least 20 industry mixers However, Horses for courses and all that.
@@PaulThird cool - but every? I say it's not how many you know, but who you know. Rhett Davies and Bob Clearmountain used a pair there while mixing Roxy Music's Avalon. Enough said.
But if you actually watched the entire video you would have seen that Bob now doesn't use them. That's what I'm trying to say in the video but most NS10 guys have either not watched it all, or just hear what they want to hear and perceive it as me saying they should have never been used. When I never said that, I went over the history and gave context as to why they started to become less popular and why for beginners in THIS era it would be advisable to go learn on more neutral full range systems (btw this is from bobs website) STORAGE 2 x Speakers - Mackie HR824 - Originally in Live Chambers 4 x Speakers - Yamaha NS-10M Studio - Old favorites, now standby CONTROL ROOM 1 x Headphones - Sennheiser HD650 - Favorite Headphones 7 x Speakers - Dynaudio BM-15A - Great hi-fi speakers. Used for stereo & Atmos. Quite neutral, to me. 1 x Sub Woofer - Dynaudio S-12 - More bass at all frequencies! 2 x Speakers - Yamaha MSP7 - Better than the NS-10M but discontinued, unfortunately! Its funny that you mention Avalon as an example, a record that was made for that time, for those sorts of playback systems, where if Bob made avalon now he would be using the Msp7 or dynaudio... That's what I'm trying to say in the video. Back then NS10's made a whole lot of sense and was something you HAD to learn for various reasons. Nowadays you don't NEED to learn them starting out. No artist is listening on ns10s, the consumer playback systems don't sound like them and A&R's aren't listening on them. I don't understand why people refuse to grasp the logic behind the video and seperate the mixer of the past from the beginner of today
I could make 100 videos in this series. Brilliant idea Paul. I’ve personally never seen the point in mixing solely on NS10s or any other frequency limited system. Might be good for a mix check but I can always just out a HPF and LPF on the master to focus on the mids…
Yeah I'm no paying upwards of a grand for a limited shit sounding speaker haha Worth a punt for like £100-200 as a mix check but I'm with you. There are ways to isolitate your midrange and you have tons of planars with fast tight low end
Agree with everything Paul said, but he said something important, he completed a premix on the macbook pro (100hz cut) and it translated well to other systems. This is exactly why NS10's are good, you dont get mislead on the sub bass and air, which sounds sweet, but really its fooling you into thinking you have a good mix. Also NS10's being non ported is really important, transient detail is crucial to getting those attacks correct. Summary NS10'S are good as a reference just like a macbook, car etc but they shouldn't be your ONLY monitor system. Myself, I prefer mixing on headphones and referencing on monitors 🤌🏾
A very well-researched video; I have NS10s and use them as an 80% mix-down check. The one thing I would say is literally every single American record executives office I have ever been to has a set of NS10s on the table, which they will check your track on, so if that world is important to you, give them a listen. They are great if you have got to dial in a rough mix really fast, but you need to use them with a sub. I have HEDD type 20's are my daily drivers and the mid range is very detailed. Great video, Paul!
I still laugh at how yamaha managed to market a shitty product knowing it was shitty but managed to sell it to the audio masses at the highest level. That's just next level 😂 I can just imagine the board meeting now .. Soooo.... Anybody know how this happened... Anybody.. Dave?.. Sandra?.. ANYBODY!!!! ????? Who gives a fuck boss?? Good point Dave... (I know they would've had Asian names but.. Ach well 🤣)
We have to understand what the ns10s were used for. NS10s were an analog for consumer bookshelf speakers which was the common listening device of the time. Now we have different consumer preferences.. get some apple earbuds. Edit: don't mix on earbuds.. but it's a better analog to consumer listening
Airpods and Bluetooth speakers and all that. Unfortunately I feel like an argument should be directed to making consumers use big ass modular towers again, but then I do feel when playing loud (for the system) on either type really shows up what mixes were designed for, even volume level
I watched this video with the sound going through my NS10s. ;) I find my mixes actually translate better when I do most of my mixing on NS10s. The low end obviously needs to be worked out on another system (I have Adam A7s w a sub and check on headphones), but the Yamahas let me hear my mid-range better than the other systems. Probably because the mid-range is pushed on them, but I check in with reference mixes so that's not really an issue (probably helpful actually). I wouldn't write them off. They are a tool and a helpful one at that!
Thanks, Paul, for the video. I absolutely hated my NS10m's when I first got them. However, when I started listening to my mixes on everyone's stereos and cars, I realized the translation of the mixes were super great. But, it was never about the bottom or the top, but instead the middle. To this day, all of my mixes on my NS10m's still sound great (to me, anyway). You're correct, you can't hear the bottom or the top with the NS10m's, just the middle. I can understand the teacher telling their students to mix first on NS10's. It's difficult to make mixes sound good. It's tough, and takes a lot of work. But, when the mix is finished, it translates well. And it forces you to work on the middle of the sound. I believe the entire art of mixing music is about translation. How the mix translates to what we all listen to music on... earbuds, headphones, car stereos, TVs, and home stereos. Now the added smart phone speakers. To pick a set of speakers that sound good, may be hindering you and your mix. Ask yourself, how does the mix translate? That's the art.
haha fighting talk! I think you’re focusing too much on frequency response, the reason ns10s are so useful is the time based response, they are really fast at the low end even which makes transient responses easier to judge. Have a look at a waterfall graph of an na10 and compare the time based response of almost any other speaker (time based is how long the speaker takes to stop raining at a given frequency after input) In this regard they measure almost better than anything almost so there’s a reason they were used aside from following the crowd . I’ve used ATC, PMC and now use genelec a bit I’ll get my ns10s repaired and keep running them, the clarity of mixes you get on them is great. It is good to have a rig with sub as well though especially for club music.
My experience with NS-10s is hearing them in a studio in Manchester. I switched from the ATC 200s to the 10s and I was like "What the heck are these?" NOBODY should EVER use them for ANYTHING. Really awful. You can't mix what you can't hear, and you can't hear most of it. They also can't be used as decent references. They show nothing useful, unlike my JBL Flip 6, a consumer device many people listen on. NS-10s should've died a long time ago, in my unpopular opinion. The only people who should keep them are those who grew up with them and learned how they sound. If someone doesn't have them already, they shouldn't buy them. They'll make you a worse engineer.
I still don't buy the whole "we couldn't source the right pulp for the cones so we discontinued them" Theres no coincidence that they started pushing neutral sounding monitors after discontinuing them. I think it was hurting their brand after a while and they just cut their losses
@@PaulThird Aye! They couldn't compete with more modern monitors for sure. Good decision to discontinue them! We're absolutely spoiled today. I mean, I use Neumann KH120As with KH750 DSP here, and I'm always blown away every day I mix on them or listen to music. Can't ever imagine mixing on monitors from the late 1970s. We're almost 50 years on with tech now.
Incorrect take. You mix on them and if your mix is good where it matters (mids and dynamically/punch) then playback elsewhere will be good. Don't rely on it for low end obviously or rely on alone. First time I heard I had same reaction..
Depends on the mixer. Many an industry mixer told me that the whole "get it sounding good on NS10 and itll sound good anywhere" is complete BS But I read a few big engineers saying the opposite over the years. I'd say if your new to the game then that wont hold any weight as they'll just end up with super dull sounding mixes as they'll fully mix to the sound of them and try and get them sounding like what they are used to
@@PaulThirdI never found this to be BS at all, NS10 mixes ( if you knew how to user them ) translated really well to other systems. I mean, that's why a lot of engineers used them. Sure, some engineers hated them ( personally I hate Genelec, I find them too "nice" ) but an awful lot in my circle swore by them.
@@psychedelicelvis-777 I've used mentioned models for years and I won't disagree with your statement, but they are just harsh for some people, and that's not worth training your ears for... It's a common fact with those DT's. Not to say how much they can damage your ears if they have to be forced to adjust to something overtime. It's important to find the perfect pair that accommodates your hearing to it's best of abilities. The only pair of DT's there ever was to do so, was the Dt 900 Pro X in that regard. But I'm using Hifiman Sundara's in my daily routine, and that's a killing pair for any occasion. Just remember, not everyone's hearing is the same. None is superior or inferior to your hearing capabilities and vice versa. It's just how we are, and how we treat ourselves that leads to our decisions.
I disagree with most of this. You’re still hearing 30hz on your ns10 but it’s just 6db down for example. Considering bob clearmountain haphazardly picked these, it’s rather miraculous how good they are for mixing. To me this video sounds like a person who hasn’t worked on them properly yet is giving opinions. 🤷♂️
Did about 3 mixes on them about 10 years ago in uni and didn't like them. Translation was off cause I tried to make them sound like I wanted them to sound. I was brought up on krk and genelec though so I had a certain sound i expected. I wasn't brought up on them and just couldn't understand how to make them work on systems I trusted. Heard them periodically through my life after that and heard that same resonant hollow thing I don't like. For whatever reason NS10 users seem to not be actually listening to what I said in the video. I didn't say you couldn't mix on them and I explained why they were so popular. Even said at the end that with the right context and understanding you can make them work. It's simply a differing perspective and it's really twigged a lot of NS10 guys but at the end of the day we are talking £800-£1100 for NS10m studio used or avantones. It's not cheap and the whole video is aimed at those new to the game. As I said, at least 20 industry engineers in my circle, and not one advised me to buy them. Not one. Id get 1 or 2, but it's an overwhelmingly big no from my circle. So I thought it would good for those starting out to get that other perspective of them considering that the audio community is so dumbed down these they'll buy anything just cause they are famous. Its just an opinion
NS10s were really only used as a reference monitor to see what your mix might sound like on a slightly rubbish, domestic speaker. They were such a joke, it was commonplace to see bits of toilet paper Sellotaped onto the harsh tweeters to help calm them down a bit. I honestly think they only 'caught on' due to their distinctive appearance and availability.
Dunno, read some of the comments. We've got some proper die hards in there using them as their main reference I've never seen such a marmite thing in the game. Interesting though as there are many who still swear by them to this day and others who wouldn't reccomend them to anybody, especially beginners
Really interesting to hear a thought-out opposing viewpoint! I would love to hear a discussion between you and an industry veteran, like say Jordan Valeriote, who swears by NS10s with very some well-founded reasoning. Rock on Paul, this video was a great introduction to your channel for me.
Tbh I think it's important to have all perspectives. In audio there's not really any right or wrong answers, merely differences of opinion of what is right and wrong. Sometimes youtube swings hard in one specific direction and needs to be brought back to the middle. Objectivity is key. There are valid reasons to use and not to use NS10's, it's just about giving the audience that balance of opinion and perspective because as soon as we lose that we lose the ability to make our own informed decision
Great video Paul! I can tell you had fun making this and am glad your finding more avenues that you enjoy to make videos about. (I remember when you got sick and tired of your great but tedious to make plugin analysis videos)
I think once you free yourself from the shackles of new product reviews you start to feel a bit more free again to make videos about the current rabbit hole
It’s easy to be cynical in 2004 about NS10s. Sure, any mid priced monitor today will give you more information than an NS10. That has never been the issue. Back in the day (and still today) most big studios had (have) large wall mounted monitors to check the bottom end, but most of the carving was (and still is) done on near field monitors. It’s precisely because NS10s were originally created for the domestic, home listening environment that their usefulness has been valued over 4 decades. We all know they roll off from 200hZ-70hZ and yes the 2k bump. But that’s exactly why they were so useful. As you pointed out in your video Paul, (short of hifi enthusiast) the majority of listening devices were pretty crappy: radios, boom boxes, shitty car speakers, cheap cassette players, shitty headphones, transistor radios etc. Evaluating NS10s in that context, they had not only a ‘taming’ effect of the harsher frequencies which were an issue with crappy listening ing devices, but a frequency range that represented the vast majority of listening devices. Historical context matters. Thousands of amazing sounding albums were mixed on them. (Roxy Music’s Avalon, Steely Dan’s Aja, Tears For Tears - Women in chains come to mind). It’s a given there are much better, way more detailed monitors today to choose from, and also more genres to accommodate that require a full frequency range. It all changed around 2000 when Dr Dre introduced heavy subs into his production with his ‘The chronic / Snoop Dogg’s Doggy Style albums. Ironically he still uses NS10s as well as well as the Auratones in mono. Go figure, right? Could very well be a case of ‘paralysis by analysis’ Mr. Third
Tbh being autistic I'm a man that looks for patterns and averages and the pattern was that most engineers have stopped relying on NS10's and moved on to more full range neutral speakers. NS10's had their place but when I say every industry mixer I asked in private advised against them, you are talking at least 20. Its kinda like analog and digital, sure all the classic records were mixed on consoles to tape but that's not the way now for many reasons. As Jaycen Joshua once quoted "you can't mix modern sounding records without modern tools" Its just how the world works, to progress in anything you need one foot in the past and one foot in the present
I think a strong opinion either way is damaging for new/upcoming engineers. If people want NS10’s, get them. If you’re not into that thing, don’t get them. I sold my mains and forced myself to stay on NS10’s for years. Did a lot for my understanding of setting compression and 2-5kHz balancing. I also much prefer speakers with an opinion, not super accurate and detailed speakers. I don’t need all that info when mixing, or I’ll miss all the broad moves that make things translate and focus on small shit that doesn’t even matter. I’m on Amphion One18’s now but I will never sell my NS10’s.
I've been in the studio biz. Longer than Bob Clearmountain. In fact. I had gone to work. At the same studio. Bob Clearmountain worked at. The legendary Media Sound Studios, NYC. Where I was hired on as a Maintenance Engineer back in 1979. When Bob Clearmountain had just resigned as a Staff Engineer. And had gone Freelance. And Bob was working with those Yamaha, NS-10. But I forgot to ask him. One or 2 ply's? And which brand of toilet paper? As this would be a big factor. Some toilet paper is like, thin tracing paper. While other toilet paper is thick and plush. And so which one to use? And that has never been discussed. Like Boxers or Jockeys? Which do you choose and why? How about no underwear and just a jockstrap instead? No? So I can't stand the sound of those, NS-10's. Buddy engineers of mine that do work on them. Tell me. When their make sounds really awful on those, NS-10's. Then they know it's good! What? I am sorry I cannot work that way. I have 3 pairs of switch selectable monitor speakers in my control room. And they are daddy bear, mommy bear and baby bear -sized. The small ones being Auratones or, Fostex 6301 or, Radio Shaft Minimus-7. For my small monitor selection. I have all of those. For the mama bear sized monitors. I have KRK and Tannoy. For my big main monitors. It's always been the JBL's. Those are the Gold Standard in Monitor Speakers. They just can't be beat. It's the sound. Where better speakers costing much more. Can actually initially sound better. You might find in a few hours. You are suffering from ear fatigue. But they initially sounded better than JBL's. Which I can work on for upwards of, 16 hours or more. Without getting ear fatigue. So this must mean something? Yes it means. Better is not necessarily, better. It is merely, different. And if that difference, makes you a famous engineer? Only then might you want to switch speaker company alliances? But I've learned to stick with JBL. There are excellent reasons for doing that. They are not a fly-by-night company. They been around since 1948 and theoretically before that. Under the auspices of, Altec Lansing. Same guy. James B. Lansing was his, American stage name. As he was Italian with the actual last name of, Martini. But adopted the name James B. Lansing. And a fascinating story about his life and name. How he got his name James B. Lansing. From something like, Giuseppe Martini. Though that's not necessarily his first name. I'm having a senior moment and can't remember his first name. It's Italian. He wanted to sound more American. James B. Lansing definitely sounds more American. And so there will always be those engineers that want to work on NS-10's. And my hat goes off for them. That they can work on and tolerate those, atrocious sounding abominations. Yamaha wanted to call, hi-fi speakers. Really? It's horrible bullshit. While Yamaha does make some other models.. That do sound, outstanding. Kind of like JBL's with a Japanese twist. I've heard, liked and could work. On some of their other slightly larger models. But not those atrocious, NS-10's. And while Bob Clearmountain popularized the toilet paper over the tweeter. Has he ever bothered to reveal. What brand and thickness of toilet paper he has been using? No. He has not. So is possibly all bullshit? And he just wants to see how many morons are out there with toilet paper over there Yamaha tweeters LOL? And so the toilet paper over the tweeters could be some kind of, demented, deranged, elaborate joke? Just to see how many lemmings there are out there? And maybe Bob Clearmountain doesn't use those atrocious NS-10's? Maybe that's all bullshit also? Wouldn't that be funny? I think it would be a riot! To find. He's never used those NS-10's. It was all an elaborate hoax. I mean you just don't know? I certainly understand the toilet paper over the tweeters. If you've ever heard those before yourself? You would want to put an entire roll of toilet paper over those Yamaha tweeters. Not just one sheet, slice. But the whole role. Over the tweeter. So we don't have to hear it! I made those are Ugh sounding speakers. Who would want to have to mix an album on those horrible things? I would rather shoot myself! It would be a kinder way to go. Then having to contend with their horrible sound. You have to be some kind of moron to subject yourself to that. Besides most of us were using Auratones. And that was a great reference. That is more similar. To what everybody else is going to be listening upon. (More Not Tens in following post)
LOL I've been ranting about this since the 1990s ;D Genelec 1030A became the new industry standard back in 1998, and I learned to like them ... Now, how's about the small, cheap Mackie speakers? The black and poison-green ones??
I used to judge the low end on NS10's by how much the surround on the bass driver was crinkling up. Also, do not buy a pair. You are not missing out on anything. They are objectively offensive to listen to.
i rented a studio in london last summer so i could use their $15,000 Augspurger speakers to dial in my low end. after 5 hours of work playing references and everything sounding PERFECT.....i flipped over to the ns-10's and played my references and my mix was suddenly needing more work! the mid range punch was SO apparently lacking in my mix once i turned on the ns10's that I immediately fly back home and bought a pair of ns10's and a Quad 405 amp....BEST decision ever.....100hz to 50 hz is SO distracting. absolutely love my Focal trio's but the ns10s are just as useful.
I've always found it interesting when people say that low end is distracting when I talk to other mixers like Prizzie Reid or Tim Palmer who will tell me that the mix just falls into place when you get the low end right. I know so many mixers that work so hard on the low end and then others that don't really prioritise it as much. Such a diverse world
WHERE IT ALL STARTED The NS-10 was first launched in 1978 … but not as a studio monitor. Instead, it was originally designed as a Hi-Fi speaker for consumers, designated the NS-10M, complete with a cloth grille. While it did not do well on the consumer level, it soon became a phenomenon in recording studios (sans grille), thanks largely to engineer/producer Greg Ladanyi (Fleetwood Mac, Don Henley, Jackson Browne), who brought a pair of NS-10s to the U.S. after a trip to Japan and became one of the first early adopters of the speakers. The NS-10M had a modest frequency range of 85 Hz to 20 kHz, and power handling of just 25 -50 watts, yet its admittedly less-than-perfect sound turned out to be a secret weapon in the studio. Almost magically, it exposed any sonic flaws in the audio, allowing for corrections to be made during the production process. You literally had to work hard on them to make your recordings sound great. Music mixed on NS-10s would translate well to the end users listening to playback systems in their living rooms, bedrooms and cars. It wasn’t long before these mysterious speakers started to become a mainstay in recording studios around the world. The NS-10M had a limited bass response, with a rolloff beginning at around 200 Hz, and a prominent boost in the upper midrange of some +5 dB at around 2 kHz, but it did have an extremely fast transient response (that is, it responded especially quickly to changes in level) thanks to its extremely lightweight drivers and unported, enclosed design. Unfortunately, this also resulted in a somewhat over-bright upper treble response. As a result, many engineers were known to tape tissue paper over the tweeters, sparking an endless (and somewhat silly) debate about the brand and ply of toilet paper required. This decidely low-tech correction would, it was felt, not only help tame the high frequencies but also create a quasi-comb filtering effect, with some frequencies reflected back into the tweeter. That's why so many great mixes were done with them as mixing engineers understood their weaknesses foibles and worked round them. Even today nothing is perfect. What is perfect? hub.yamaha.com/proaudio/recording/a-history-of-yamaha-studio-reference-monitors/#:~:text=While%20it%20did%20not%20do,first%20early%20adopters%20of%20the
This sounded like very well reasoned advice that accounts for how the tech has just moved on. I also got a nice affirmation for my decision to buy my Kali LP-6 v2 last year. I also just loved your Glaswegian brogue. It was like listening to Winston, my spirit animal from Still Game. AWESOME! Gone is the notion to even think of some NS-10 as even a reference. I next reference will just be better monitors like a pair of Adam's, or perhaps Neumann's.
Putting your hands on any speakers is a great way to get a tactile feel of how crazy your transients are in the mix; try it with some commercial mixes!
Have you actually used them Paul? They are uniquely useful. Sure, they divide opinion, but there is no absolute way to judge the effectiveness of NS10s. I’ve had NS10s in the studio on and off for 20 years and I struggled to appreciate them, its been relatively recent that I’ve understood what is so appealing about them. A quality I think is not acknowledged - some might say - design fault, is they do not project into the mix room, but sit flat in the speaker. If your room is not perfectly balanced, they are almost isolated and this does provide a kind of ‘clean’ listening image. I think this, makes them especially unusual and particularly good in translation. To focus on its sound quality, is to miss the point, they are not pretty sounding and they do not have the low end of modern speakers…thats not necessarily a bad thing. I wouldn’t advise anyone to buy NS10s as a sole monitor, or even as a second monitor out of hand, but I might to someone who describes a particular frustration with other monitoring options. The way to appreciate the NS10 - in my opinion, is as a tool like no other, almost a type of audio meter, it won’t necessarily be the reason your mixes are great, but it can be extremely useful for hearing how the mix really is, I’ve not heard any other monitor do this quite so well.
I get that but the avantones are £800-£1100. If you could pick them up cheap then yeah I get it but that's a big investment considering what you could get elsewhere for that. When I heard them in treated studios I didn't like them. It's the hollowness I didn't like to my ears. Didn't help that there were genelecs in the same room and I heard them A/B'd. Wasn't for me. Also didn't help that the engineer spoke about them like they were the worst person on earth 😂 Why the fuck do you keep them then? His response: “nostalgia" 😂
You know how it is, theres always one view that says thing A is the greatest thing ever, only for the next person to say its the worst. Its like arguing over what the best genre of music is. I loathe jazz funk pop, but plenty of people don’t. For some people, the NS10 is unparalleled in their usefulness. Not that I particularly care, I’ve got the avantone cube too, I don’t find them nearly as useful and my main monitors are 25 year old Mackie hr8s, at the end of the day you can mix on anything when you’ve been doing it long enough.
Oh and the NS10S were designed for a totally specific market and meant to be used in a very specific manner. They were designed for small Japanese living rooms to be driven by an amplifier with the loudness switch engaged. That is, they're designed for low-level listening and their frequency response was tailored with that environment as their chief usage.
I’m gonna mix this up. NS10’s running through a Trinnov are a game changer. Along with neutral speakers like Neumanns and other modern speakers. All being corrected to the room are amazing. Corrected NS10s sound amazing, wide and clear, no dips and bumps. The speakers don’t over react to low end but their response goes down to 40Hz. Presence is clear and comfortable. Hi end rolls off beautifully. With Trinnov and I guess other systems as well, room correction becomes available to everyone. Technology has made old and new speakers on par with each other, thus helping the overall average decisions engineers and mixers need to make in split seconds. Also, in the control room, tracking guitars playing in the control room on NS10s with no correction is so vibey! Feedback wonderful 💥 Also, NS10s used as a speaker in a chamber sound top on drums. Also, did I mention I like NS10s😂 I am not sponsored by Yamaha…. I’ll get me coat!
Totally agree! NS-10m (driven by Bryson amps) with subs and Trinnov user here. Along with the NS10s being my main monitors, I also use iLoud MTMs and Audeze MM500 to mix and each of them give me a different perspective, then I have ATCs to check for loud volumes; I still think NS10s are irreplaceable for me, many times I thought I could maybe stop using NS10s as I have so many sets, but I just keep coming back to them, I there’s something to do with the phase
Within reason one can mix on almost anything… NS10 were used predominantly by mix engineers back in the 80's and they worked through the next couple of decades using the same speakers bringing the ubiquitous use of Yammies into the 2000's BUT, they simply had years of experience using them. Many worked in the same studios they knew the room and the NS10 speakers and therein lays the unfortunate truth…. There is no substitute for experience and years of practice.
Didn't enjoy my encounter with NS-10s. I can see how they would help as an alternative viewpoint to full-range speakers but I'm more a cube speaker kind of guy. Regardless, the music is in the mids and sparkling highs and rumbling lows are the icing, not the cake. Whatever helps you get the mids right is the right speaker for you.
I have never been in a professional studio with NS-10's as the main monitor. In any studio you have your mains (full range with sub - get loud, sound great, impress clients and artist), and your alternates NS10's, Auratone's, Tannoy PBM's, boom boxes, mono radio - whatever, the more the merrier. I was lucky enough to assist many Grammy nominee's and winners. Words of wisdom that stuck with me from one of them was "All speakers lie" - As I got older and could afford more speakers I just say "All speakers sound different." Sounds simplistic because it is. - Don't get into the "these speaker are flatter then those speakers crowd" or producer "X" mixes with them so they must be good. They may be good for him/her but not for you. Remember your personal hearing curve is as unique as the speaker itself. I know I have a dip in the 2-4k and another in the 8k range from years of live gigs, that is why NS10's don't bother me as much as somebody that has better hearing in that range. Vanilla and chocolate. If you have a bump in that part of your hearing NS10's may sound like nails on a chalkboard at high volume to you. If you are spending big money. Don't buy speakers if you can't demo a bunch of speakers at the same time and switch between them at all different volumes. Find the pair that fit your hearing. It is amazing how different they sound next to each other. I personally dislike every rear ported speaker I have owned (seems to be pretty common design for lower priced speakers) Rear ports make placement toooo crucial - I find them hard to dial in when rooms are less then perfect. Give me a front port and that extra ported low-end is coming straight "at me" not building up against the wall in the corner behind the console. All the alt speakers have their own tricks so use their strengths, but know their weaknesses, they all lie don't trust any "one" speaker for everything. AND yes totally agree - save you money for a great monitoring setup more so than plugins. The most important mix centric words of wisdom imparted on me has to be "use a reference mix or more" A/B against what "you know" sounds good everywhere and don't lie to yourself. Else you may find you chasing your tail. A/B your mix against the reference on NS10's and they should sound sonically similar, same for your mains, Auratones, KRK's, JBLs, Genelec's, Tannoy's, Adam's etc. Theoretically, you should be able to mix any speakers with proper A/B-ing technique - However it is so much more pleasant mixing on speakers that you like sound of.
I think it’s well known the ns10s sound like shit. I had KRK RP6 for a good 10 years till a couple of years ago when they blew up. Man I wish I had gotten rid of sooner. I knew they were shit but just couldn’t get my head round buying new monitors. I got the Neumann kh120s now and they are beautiful.
I still use pair of NS 10's for checking balances and mids. They are very similar to Airpods, but you can use them solo. They are of course not neutral at all, but they teach philosophy of scooping harsh high mids to sound good. I think it's very useful.
I agree, beginners should not mix on NS10's if it's the only speaker they have. They really don't have the low-end today's music requires. That said, NS10's are an INVALUABLE tool when used as secondary monitors. I mix on a pair of Neumann KH-120A's w/ an HS8S sub, but recently added NS-10M Studio's with a Hafler P1500 to my rig (literally a few days ago). If treating my room, snagging a pair of Nuemann's, and implementing some room correction was the best decision I ever made, adding NS-10's is for sure the third-best decision I've ever made (second-best decision was adding motorized faders). They are incredibly revealing in the mid-range. To really get what you need from them, you need to volume match to your mains so when you A/B you're comparing apples to apples. I'm about to release an EP, and I just ran every track through the NS-10s and was able to make them that 3-5% better (where the real magic lives, at least for my current skill level). Cheers.
Oh and then there's Dark Side Of The Moon, which's mixed by (forgot his name, haha) on Alan Parsons' JBL monitors, which he still has and DSOTM became sorta standard for audiophiles to properly check an Hi-Fi system they're considering buying and then, at the same time: mention JBL on whatever (engineering) forum and they'll reply with: "are you having a laugh???". Opinions, opinions... what's fact in the audio industry? I can at least nam one: noone wants to mix a Yoko Ono album, unless they get paid a million
I quit my Yamaha HS-5's and sub for a pair of CLA NS 10's. TBH - I hated them..when i I first got them. Worst sounding speakers I have ever heard. That being said, I pursued using them on the advice of my mentor. He warned me I would hate them. However he did say if you can get a mix sounding good on these, said mix will sound good anywhere. He was right. My mixes sound way better now and translate everywhere. Took me a year to get into the zone. I do use Sonarworks too, and check the low end on Sennheiser HD headphones. I do rate these speakers - not for the sound - it is crap - but translation, a hell yeah
I fucking hate them and could never get a good mix on them. I could have forced myself, because you can get used to mixing on anything eventually. Thank God I got a pair of Mackie 824s when they came out. They weren't the best, but they made a lot more sense to my ears at the time, and I did a lot of great work on them. They approached the "flat" trend, and were among the first affordable powered speakers. BTW, I have a pair on NS-10M Studios in great condition, barley used since I bought them in the early 2000s if anyone is interested!
I mixed an awful lot of club music and dance hits back in the 90's on Ns10's and loved them. I found the translation excellent once you knew how to use them. I'm firmly in the "get it sounding good on NS10's and it'll sound good everywhere" camp. I wasn't using NS10's alone though, I was using them with other reference speakers ( Dynaudio M2's for a good while. ) Haven't used them in years now though ( although I do have a pair in my front room ) I now prefer my ADAM A7x's ( with a sub ) and Auratones for mid reference and also use a £10 x-mini from ebay for the whole phone reference thing. I'm also a live engineer so I have access to club/venue/festival rigs to test sub too which is great. You can't deny the amount of hits mixed on NS10's though, they definitely had their day.
No one's advising beginners to mix on NS-10s lol That's definitely an advanced technique, and a wildly overrated one at that. A few guys did it back in the day, now everyone does it. That's how it goes in the audio world. I don't even use mine anymore. They're just sitting on the console as more of a relic We are way past the days where mixing on a set of shitty old shelf speakers is useful lol (but they are cool to have)
I think it’s all about learning the speakers and understanding what they are good for and not good for. NS10s (from my experience using the realphones system lmao) are only good to hyper focus on the mid range and find frequencies that should be cut in the mids. That’s about it tho, doing fader balance or compression or other things doesn’t work well cause you don’t get the proper feedback. I feel a different way about the BIG speakers for hearing subs and setting bass. I think it’s great for almost everything when mixing except properly checking the kids for “pokies” and transient designing to shaping is absolutely horrendous on it. You think you hear something happening to your transients and you do some work but when you listen outside it’s completely off and sounds bad. These things are just a tool not a holy grail.
I know what I'm doing. I know what I'm mixing. When I'm on my JBL Studio Control Room Monitor Speakers. I can be confident and solid, in my decision-making. And since I specialize in Live Recordings and Live Broadcasts. I don't have the advantage. Of having everything all perfect. In a nice studio. No. I get none of that. I get lots of noise, lots of distortion. Coming off the secondary side of the, microphone splitter transformers. No remote recording guy would tolerate! Except Me. I am Extremely Tolerant. And I love a Challenge. I also love doing Live Broadcasts and Live Recordings. Where everything is only Take-1. And who ever heard of recording an entire rock 'n' roll album and only 1 take? But that's what, Audio Engineers, like myself. I have to deliver. Because I went on the air. Coast to Coast and/or around the world on the satellite. And I could have between 3 and 10 million people listening at the same time. To my engineering. That gets a bit, intimidating. Don't you think? And you have to do it on Take-1. And only 1. You don't get to start again or restart. You don't get, Take-2. You can't fix it in the mix. It all has to be right. Right out of the door. With the downbeat. And no microphone checks. No sound checks. I have to be Clairvoyant! I have to be a mental Telepath. I have to voodoo and Black Magic. And luckily. I don't have to do any of that, Sober! Do not have to. Not recommended to be, sober. Not when you have between three and 10 million people listening. Would you want to be sober for that? Of course not! So you have to practice a lot with beer and pot. Before you can start charging people. And I practiced, a lot! You can also. And I came up with stuff like this: soundcloud.com/remyrad/track08 And other stuff like this from local yokels in Austin, Texas. soundcloud.com/user-135130368/sets/live-at-electric-church-fm-sessions-vol-1 I do these, without, sound checks, microphone checks. The entire mix is worked out within the first 60 seconds. Of their first song. I get 60 seconds. To develop a hit sounding mix. With bands I've never heard before. People I've never worked with. Repertoire I've never heard. And using all cheap,, PA microphones. There is not a single studio microphone in use here. Unless you also consider some $30 each Taiwanese made RadioShack microphones, Professional? Because you are listening to some here. It's very funny. Drum overheads and room microphones are, 1984, Radio Shaft, PZM, microphones. I love them. I have, eight of those from 1984. I also have the expense of American-made, original Crown, versions. Those were quite expensive. They both sound the same. They both work the same. More plastic with the Radio Shaft versions. Same microphone capsule as the expensive Crown's. It's very funny. You can use anything that actually works. Different results will be had. So your listeners don't have to be. And sold a bill of goods. The only high-end equipment. Can produce, popular hit recordings. That might've been true, 50 years ago, 40 years ago, 30 years ago? Not so much anymore. They've managed to make things sound good, cheaply today. I don't mind using it. When I'm forced to. Because I do like the nice expensive stuff best. And lucky that I was able own all that expensive stuff for many decades. Now I've paid it all forwards. I'm done. I'm 68. Time to have some retirement fun. Become a Nomad and just go driving around the USA. And maybe in every city I stop in. I shall find that little, corner bar. Where the local, singing guitar guy/gal, plays. Stop in and record them. Interview them. And then on to the next city. And so on and so forth. And I know what will happen then. I will regret getting rid of my recording truck. LOL. Only to find out I have to build a new one. As of course I'm thinking about it, already. I've already planned it out.. It only takes me about 30 seconds.… To know how I'm going to design. My next. Control Room. And as much as I hate to say it. There's going to be no console, sitting in front of me. Enough with that! That is an, Acoustical Abomination. To have an audio console sitting in front of you. So goodbye audio console! It'll be more like sitting in your living room. In front of your big-screen TV. Nothing between you and the TV on the wall. Except your little tablet. Will be controlling everything. Plus people have told me. My Control Room is, Shocking to Hear. It blows everybody's mind when they hear it. People have made mention. How come my puny, Control Room. Sound better than some big luxurious studios? It's called knowing what I'm doing. And knowing the mistakes other people have made. I do nothing special. I just wire everything up the right way. Other people make mistakes and don't know it. They check everything. And they find everything is correct. Except for the sound. And they keep running into this problem. No matter what they do. No matter what they purchase. I think it's very funny. It's very funny because I think a horrible cruel joke of marketing. Has been played upon, everyone. Except for those of us few. That figured this,, faux pas of a joke out. It could've been a joke that everybody will realize later was one hell of a joke? Because they don't think anything is wrong. As they all have college degrees telling them so. But never in my life. Have I seen a mathematical equation or a textbook. Listening to anything in a recording studio control room? So what the hell are they saying? They are inanimate. They don't say or do anything. We do! We are alive and corporeal. There is inanimate thingies. And only we can listen to and make decisions upon how things sound. Because mathematical equations and textbooks, don't. All you have to do is listen. The ears are connected to the brain. The brain is connected to your senses. Your senses are connected to the Pot. You can either smoke Pot. Or you can turn a Pot up or down. You can also turn them from side to side. If you should so desire? Because one is Pot and the other is short for Potentiometer. I use both, judiciously or, in my case, Jew-diciously. As I am a Delicious Jew. Just so you know. In all things, delicious. And Not using Yamaha NS-10's. soundcloud.com/user-135130368/sets/live-at-electric-church-fm-sessions-vol-1 RemyRAD
I've never liked the NS-10. Back in the day the only praise that I heard about them was that everyone used them so you could always have a reference that was available at pretty much all studios. I was, however a fan of the LS3/5a's at the time for nearfield monitoring.
Actually I heard an opinion that it's wrong to mimick NS10 with EQ, or at least it gives different results than real NS10, but I had a hard time finding the source and some more arguments.
Yeah, for whatever reason NS10 users have basically taken my opinion and perceived it as slander towards them. I was pretty clear at the start that it was aimed more at advising beginners starting out in 2024, not those who started out decades ago. The Audio community is so fucking defensive about everything, see if something doesn't fit their belief, tantrum central
Yeah I've been surprised just how many but tbf to a lot of them they agree that just cause they learned how to use them doesn't mean that they would advise somebody new to the game to start mixing on them. Without purpose, understanding or context behind buying them you are simply spunking close to a grand for no reason
Is it because you thought I was slating you? Did you not watch it properly and made up in your head that I was slating NS10 users like you. Did you throw a bit of a cream puff cause you thought I was targeting you specifically instead of beginners? It's OK, you are safe.
Yeah I didn't realise just how much shit this would cause, thought it was pretty explanatory not to advise them for beginners haha but NS10 users have taken it as I'm talking about them instead of advising those learning in this era. Typical Internet
So, in essence.... does it even matter anymore wether or not you're mixing music on 'dedicated' monitors or on Hi-Fi speakers? To my understanding, back in the day, the studio monitor's designed to sound as neutral as possible, but I certainly believe that, as the years went by, different companies who released studio monitors pretty much fell into the same trap as the Hi-Fi speaker manufacturers did, which's concuration. So, what ís the most neutral sounding monitor in the world and if mixing engineers nowadays are fine with what mixes would sound like on average equipment (so, it's all about business nowadays) instead of audiophile gear, then why not get a decent soundbar at your local Aldi store and mix on those? I might be a tad stupid, so that'why I'm a bit confused an also concerned. Greetings from an (almost) neighbour from the Netherlands. :)
Cause you can't mix what you can't hear. I've seen it all as finding a middle ground where it has to sound great upscaled to better monitoring but also work on low quality systems. Normally working on a better system translates better to lower systems, where doing the opposite is a lot harder due to variences in room acoustics, soundstage, transient response, detail retrieval, distortion etc etc The more variables you add, the harder translation may be
I remember the first PlayStation, it had a CD player 😂 I also remember using cassettes for data storage 😅 I also remember losing the data every time you needed to turn your ZX 81 off 😢 I am old 😭
@@PaulThird two Akai with the famous gx heads (if memory still works) served me well on those days. And most music I liked came on certain hours, the John Peel show 👍😎
Yeah, they rule I use em every day on major label mixes No sub (I also was trained by Chris (cla) so make of that what you will) I also have Amphion two 18s w/-sub But I probably only spend the final 15% of a mix on them.
You touched on what makes NS10's (and Auratones) so unique and useful for mixing. They're both closed speakers with extremely fast decay and light drivers that are incredibly detailed when driven with a nice amp. As a second reference, they give you a very clear picture of your mid-range transient response I think we get so focused on frequency response that we forget how much more important the dynamics can be. You can have a mix with perfectly balanced frequency response that's boring as hell and a thin mix that's punchy and exciting. That said, I'll pick Auratones over NS10's any day of the week because that harsh high end is just an unnecessary distraction
I'm with you on transient response - sometimes it's as if the term "slew rate" vanished some time during the 80s! Some people argue that extended highs equate to speed but I disagree if only because the tweeter handles the highs but expecting an 8" woofer to present mid transients accurately is unrealistic. It's one reason I went to three-way speakers with separate amplifier.
Colt capperrunes trick on cutting pass filters on a master buss eq at 200 and 4k while mixing is a good way to get the mids right without having to buy ns10s
An addition to the NS-10 history part is that the upgraded studio version also broadened the frequency range in the lows from 85hz to 60hz. So basically a completely different speaker. I had both models and liked checking mixes on them. However I would never have a setup with only the NS-10. So I’m with you there 🙌
I think his mixes are pretty darn good! If I had the physical space, I'd have a pair, but they wouldn't be my only set of speakers. A great mix done on any other speaker will sound good on NS-10's, and a great mix done on NS-10's will sound good on any other speaker. That's been my experience.
I find Auratones useful but use them in conjunction with Neumann KH 310s. Can't imagine only working on Auratones or NS10s. On the Barefoot topic, I feel like they're an acquired taste. I was so excited to try a few pairs a while back, but they weren't for me at all.
My first time in a top studio (late 80s) with a vintage Neve console and all the usual suspects in the racks I was horrified (and disappointed) that the entire mixing session was done on NS10s and the Neve's mono "talkback speaker"! Massive soffit mounted monitors never got a look in. I was extra shocked when the mixes did translate well... so the moral of the story is "familiarity = consistency"
I have an eq preset on my sub bus . If I'm doing low end I get a good result from making it sound the best it can in that and it also reveals a lot so I'm sticking with it but no I would never buy a pair . Better buy another set of headphones
Since I've heard how N-monitors sound in a treated room, there are no other monitors I'd want to have. Glad they're being produced in Russia, so no illegal sanctions would stop me from buying them
In my control room I have 4 different sets of monitors. I mix on the NS10s, it’s where I shape my mids. Once I get the mix sounding good on the NS10s I switch to a different (neutral) set of monitors and tweak from there. Don’t underestimate the NS10s but make sure you have a second pair of monitors.
Yeah that's all the video is aiming at, providing context to beginners before starting out instead of just blindly buying something and thinking that they'll be able to get amazing translation out the box. It's a learning curve
My primaries are a pair of Alesis Monitor One Mk][ and I love them. My secondaries are the PreSonus Eris BT4.5's I've got both run through SonarWorks Reference ID so both are as flat as possible. my headphones are DT990 pros I'm more than happy with my little home studio setup 🙂 It also helps that I listen to EVERYTHING through them as this entire setup is also my primary PC as well so I listen to everything through them, music, movies, tv shows, games etc etc.
As someone that worked in studio and broadcast engineering in the late 70s through the present. We used NS-10s and Auratones for reference back when I started. The studio mains which back then were soffit mounted, calibrated, large, time aligned speakers, were used for mixing. We used NS-10s because EVERY studio had them so if you were checking mixes from another studio you needed them. We used Auratones because they had one driver and no crossover and were all midband mostly to emulate the response of a typical car radio system of the time. MoTown used a typical 6x9 car speaker in an Olsen cabinet to simulate the response of a typical car radio of the time. Auratones were great for checking the guitar/vocal mix balance. We rarely used headphones for any kind of mixing, however that is changing and not just due to the Slate VSX system. Headphones have gotten way better than the Koss headphones that were common in studios when I started.
thank you , NS 10 s replaced Aurotones originally in Island Studios end of the 70 s , I was assistant engineer there at the time , Rhett Davis who had mixed Roxy Music in New York with Bob Clearmountain brought in a pair of NS 10 to Basing Street Studios London and they soon became very popular in pro studios , they are good reference speakers and they look nice
Solely on NS10’s? Hello No. A beginner on NS-10’s? Heavens NO. Too steep a learning curve for beginners. But I still need these little buggers. And I’ve yet to find anything capable of rivaling what they do.
It's no coincidence that mixes became incredibly 2D when everyone followed the trend and started mixing on them. One reason many UK studios moved onto them was... They bought huge great monitors and then tried to drive them with dreadful PA amps completely oblivious to wattage has little to do with an amplifier's ability to drive and control a speaker. I've heard several sets of fabulous speakers sounding totally gash cos studio managers don't understand that a 50 watt amp that can drive a 2 ohm load is a far superior amplifier than a 500 watt amp that struggles to push 700 Watts into a 4 ohm load and , in effect, dies trying to drive anything lower. Ergo, they'd "prefer" the NS10s for long sessions. Yes, that's how bad some expensive facilities main monitors sounded cos of not understanding amplifiers.
Just like headphone amps of today "my £1200 audezes don't sound as good through my scarlett hp amp" "that's cause they needed driven properly" "but it sounds loud enough for me" ... 🙈🙈🙈
And here's my take on the subject: some monitors work for some people, not for others. I know some engineers who make great work on ns10's. Others who swear by them to check their work or specific elements on...I bought a pair and barely if ever use them. So in the end it's just whatever works for the engineer in question.
True but at £800-£1100 it's not a throwaway thing. It's a substantial investment for something that is pot luck if it works out for you That's why I advise against them. If they were like £150 or something then yeah fill your boots and take a shot in the dark
I work on NS10s with a sub, so I think some things, but I will only say I think a discussion about them (positive or negative) would be much more effective if you had mixed on them before.
I did, I want to say 2 or 3 mixes on them about 10 years ago in uni as they had a room I was able to get into on the odd occasion and never liked them. Just always sounded strange to me but that's probably cause I was used to krk's and genelecs. NS10's had this hollow resonant thing I never gravitated towards and when I'd put the NS10 mix up on the krks the balance was completely off cause I tried to make them sound like I wanted them to sound. Just confused the shit out of me due to my inexperience. And then about 3 years ago I was in another studio and heard that same sound I really didn't like. It's like audio PTSD 😂 as soon as I hear them I'm like.. Get off now! 🤣 If they work for you, they work for you, and I know I did a good job showcasing why they were popular and I didn't say people couldn't get good mixes on them, I simply said from the off that I don't understand the logic behind why people would advise a beginner to mix on them. It seems to have hit a trigger with many NS10 users (not meaning you) and their defensiveness has kicked in and they haven't actually listened to a word I've said. I watched it back and I know in my heart of hearts that I was as fair as can be and not once did I say that you can't mix on them. I just disagree with those advising £800-£1100 limited speakers that also require a £500 sub (making it £1300-1600) to those starting out considering you can get a decent 3 way now and still have change left over for room treatment which is more important
Maybe in the future we will have mixes that are catered to perform best for your listening system and not the one mix & master that fits all .... The one thing i notice about music that was mixes back in the days of the NS10s was that the music wasn't fatiguing overly bassy or trebly leaving space for the music to breath and sound natural.. Don't get me wrong we all love a song with great bass , But is it natural to get music to go all the way down to 30hz .. Just saying
Dunno there are some tracks that just work better to my ears with well controlled low end. Especially some of the atmos mixes. As soon as I sorted the low end in my atmos room I could really appreciate the kali ws6.2
BTW for those who are getting pissy in the comments.. Remember that it's just an opinion. Purposely made to give another perspective.
I am NOT slating engineers who still mix or have mixed on NS10's. That's just stupid. I'm not shitting on history, all I'm doing is providing context to those new to the game. Trying to explain why they were or are still popular but at the same time adding a bit of food for thought as so much of the modern community is so dumbed down that they'll genuinely just buy what a youtuber tells them to without any research or context behind it. NS10MS and avantones aren't cheap (£800-£1100) and all I'm giving a different angle towards the product to make people think a bit.
I'm shocked at how many people didn't watch the whole video or watch it properly and have decided to go in the cream puff about it and decide that I was stating that experienced engineers who have the journey and context behind them are wrong for mixing on NS10. The video is NOT aimed at you. However if you feel that me giving advice to those starting out affects your credibility then you need to stop being so insecure over an opinion. If you have a solid career mixing on ns10s then this video isn't for you and you shouldn't be bothered about one guys opinion on the Internet.
I'm simply sharing the advice that I was personally given by industry professionals in my circle. I think it would be pretty shitty to take that advice and not share it to those looking to invest a heavy whack on them. BUT it is just opinions. No right or wrong answers.
If you can't handle one person's opinion or perspective cause it differs from your own feelings then you need to grow the fuck up and learn to be an adult. It's just one guy on the Internet sharing an opinion. Doesn't badly impact anybody, put anybody in danger or intentionally mean harm to anyone.
Its an opinion about a speaker.... Let that sink in
Saying that, Whats your experience of NS10's? 🤓
It's all about if you know their sound and the room. So many other ways to reference midrange with today's tech
Pair them with a decent 12"Sub, and adjust the sub to only give you the low end that the NS10 won't, make sure to be in phase. Get the speakers powered by a powerful amp, I got mines on a Yamaha P2500. Get them placed like your main monitors, not inside your main monitors. From my experience they work well roughly 1,20m - 1,5m apart. Use monitor stands, decoupled from your desk, and adjust the height of your monitor stands so the tweeter is slightly above your ears. Listen to great sounding mixes on them... and treat them as your main monitors, don't run immediately to find a more pleasing speaker. Use good converters, and don't use room correction software! I think you can get great mixes out of them!
It is great that you actually showed the waterfall plots showing one of the main reason NS10 are useful. Not only mentioning its transient response but supported by facts.
It would have been nice though if you had referenced the source, which is a paper written by Philip Newell et al. (the man who recorded and mixed Tubular Bells on top of being an acoustic designer for high end studios for many years, and also speaker designer). Have a kook at Reflexion Arts page, which is the company in which he was working for last years after Virgin Records. They sell equipment, build high-end speakers and design recording studios. They are in my home town. I have got a pretty good relationship with them :)
I use my singular ns10 as a mono reference to switch to occasionally. It's basically sports car suspension that shows you all the bump's in the road. Not all about freq response kids. The impulse response is incredibly useful.
Always hated the NS10’s, they just hurt my ears, horrible sounding things, and nowhere near as accurate as my PSI
I got a pair and absolutely love them. I actually even got the original cardboard box they came in back in the early 80'ties.
Not every speaker is for every ear and you need to learn them, and it can take a while. Once you have they're actually (for me) a tool I can't mix without... I'm sure a lot of people hate them, but the test of time has proven lots more actually have and still rely on them., than there are haters..
Dunno, when I say every industry mixer I spoke to advised against them, it was every one. I obviously didn't speak to every mixer but you are talking at least 20 industry mixers
However, Horses for courses and all that.
@@PaulThird cool - but every? I say it's not how many you know, but who you know. Rhett Davies and Bob Clearmountain used a pair there while mixing Roxy Music's Avalon. Enough said.
But if you actually watched the entire video you would have seen that Bob now doesn't use them.
That's what I'm trying to say in the video but most NS10 guys have either not watched it all, or just hear what they want to hear and perceive it as me saying they should have never been used. When I never said that, I went over the history and gave context as to why they started to become less popular and why for beginners in THIS era it would be advisable to go learn on more neutral full range systems
(btw this is from bobs website)
STORAGE
2 x Speakers - Mackie HR824 - Originally in Live Chambers
4 x Speakers - Yamaha NS-10M Studio - Old favorites, now standby
CONTROL ROOM
1 x Headphones - Sennheiser HD650 - Favorite Headphones
7 x Speakers - Dynaudio BM-15A - Great hi-fi speakers. Used for stereo & Atmos. Quite neutral, to me.
1 x Sub Woofer - Dynaudio S-12 - More bass at all frequencies!
2 x Speakers - Yamaha MSP7 - Better than the NS-10M but discontinued, unfortunately!
Its funny that you mention Avalon as an example, a record that was made for that time, for those sorts of playback systems, where if Bob made avalon now he would be using the Msp7 or dynaudio...
That's what I'm trying to say in the video. Back then NS10's made a whole lot of sense and was something you HAD to learn for various reasons.
Nowadays you don't NEED to learn them starting out. No artist is listening on ns10s, the consumer playback systems don't sound like them and A&R's aren't listening on them.
I don't understand why people refuse to grasp the logic behind the video and seperate the mixer of the past from the beginner of today
I could make 100 videos in this series. Brilliant idea Paul. I’ve personally never seen the point in mixing solely on NS10s or any other frequency limited system.
Might be good for a mix check but I can always just out a HPF and LPF on the master to focus on the mids…
Yeah I'm no paying upwards of a grand for a limited shit sounding speaker haha
Worth a punt for like £100-200 as a mix check but I'm with you. There are ways to isolitate your midrange and you have tons of planars with fast tight low end
The most important think when you buy new monitors of headphones: Keep the old one's. Don't throw them away.
Yeah that's a good shout
Agree with everything Paul said, but he said something important, he completed a premix on the macbook pro (100hz cut) and it translated well to other systems. This is exactly why NS10's are good, you dont get mislead on the sub bass and air, which sounds sweet, but really its fooling you into thinking you have a good mix. Also NS10's being non ported is really important, transient detail is crucial to getting those attacks correct. Summary NS10'S are good as a reference just like a macbook, car etc but they shouldn't be your ONLY monitor system. Myself, I prefer mixing on headphones and referencing on monitors 🤌🏾
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A very well-researched video; I have NS10s and use them as an 80% mix-down check. The one thing I would say is literally every single American record executives office I have ever been to has a set of NS10s on the table, which they will check your track on, so if that world is important to you, give them a listen. They are great if you have got to dial in a rough mix really fast, but you need to use them with a sub. I have HEDD type 20's are my daily drivers and the mid range is very detailed. Great video, Paul!
I still laugh at how yamaha managed to market a shitty product knowing it was shitty but managed to sell it to the audio masses at the highest level. That's just next level 😂 I can just imagine the board meeting now
.. Soooo.... Anybody know how this happened... Anybody.. Dave?.. Sandra?.. ANYBODY!!!! ?????
Who gives a fuck boss??
Good point Dave...
(I know they would've had Asian names but.. Ach well 🤣)
@@PaulThirdsneaking in that asian name line robbed me of a comment just had to comment on that.. participation algorithm yay 😂
You don't need a sub for NS-10s lol.
That defeats the whole purpose
We have to understand what the ns10s were used for. NS10s were an analog for consumer bookshelf speakers which was the common listening device of the time. Now we have different consumer preferences.. get some apple earbuds.
Edit: don't mix on earbuds.. but it's a better analog to consumer listening
Yeah I couldn't do a full mix on earbuds and trust it
Airpods and Bluetooth speakers and all that. Unfortunately I feel like an argument should be directed to making consumers use big ass modular towers again, but then I do feel when playing loud (for the system) on either type really shows up what mixes were designed for, even volume level
I watched this video with the sound going through my NS10s. ;)
I find my mixes actually translate better when I do most of my mixing on NS10s. The low end obviously needs to be worked out on another system (I have Adam A7s w a sub and check on headphones), but the Yamahas let me hear my mid-range better than the other systems. Probably because the mid-range is pushed on them, but I check in with reference mixes so that's not really an issue (probably helpful actually). I wouldn't write them off. They are a tool and a helpful one at that!
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Thanks, Paul, for the video. I absolutely hated my NS10m's when I first got them. However, when I started listening to my mixes on everyone's stereos and cars, I realized the translation of the mixes were super great. But, it was never about the bottom or the top, but instead the middle. To this day, all of my mixes on my NS10m's still sound great (to me, anyway). You're correct, you can't hear the bottom or the top with the NS10m's, just the middle.
I can understand the teacher telling their students to mix first on NS10's. It's difficult to make mixes sound good. It's tough, and takes a lot of work. But, when the mix is finished, it translates well. And it forces you to work on the middle of the sound.
I believe the entire art of mixing music is about translation. How the mix translates to what we all listen to music on... earbuds, headphones, car stereos, TVs, and home stereos. Now the added smart phone speakers. To pick a set of speakers that sound good, may be hindering you and your mix. Ask yourself, how does the mix translate? That's the art.
Thats the journey im on now
Well said... well said
No shit
haha fighting talk! I think you’re focusing too much on frequency response, the reason ns10s are so useful is the time based response, they are really fast at the low end even which makes transient responses easier to judge. Have a look at a waterfall graph of an na10 and compare the time based response of almost any other speaker (time based is how long the speaker takes to stop raining at a given frequency after input) In this regard they measure almost better than anything almost so there’s a reason they were used aside from following the crowd . I’ve used ATC, PMC and now use genelec a bit I’ll get my ns10s repaired and keep running them, the clarity of mixes you get on them is great. It is good to have a rig with sub as well though especially for club music.
My experience with NS-10s is hearing them in a studio in Manchester. I switched from the ATC 200s to the 10s and I was like "What the heck are these?"
NOBODY should EVER use them for ANYTHING. Really awful. You can't mix what you can't hear, and you can't hear most of it. They also can't be used as decent references. They show nothing useful, unlike my JBL Flip 6, a consumer device many people listen on.
NS-10s should've died a long time ago, in my unpopular opinion. The only people who should keep them are those who grew up with them and learned how they sound. If someone doesn't have them already, they shouldn't buy them. They'll make you a worse engineer.
I still don't buy the whole "we couldn't source the right pulp for the cones so we discontinued them"
Theres no coincidence that they started pushing neutral sounding monitors after discontinuing them.
I think it was hurting their brand after a while and they just cut their losses
@@PaulThird Aye! They couldn't compete with more modern monitors for sure. Good decision to discontinue them!
We're absolutely spoiled today. I mean, I use Neumann KH120As with KH750 DSP here, and I'm always blown away every day I mix on them or listen to music. Can't ever imagine mixing on monitors from the late 1970s. We're almost 50 years on with tech now.
Incorrect take. You mix on them and if your mix is good where it matters (mids and dynamically/punch) then playback elsewhere will be good. Don't rely on it for low end obviously or rely on alone. First time I heard I had same reaction..
Depends on the mixer. Many an industry mixer told me that the whole "get it sounding good on NS10 and itll sound good anywhere" is complete BS
But I read a few big engineers saying the opposite over the years. I'd say if your new to the game then that wont hold any weight as they'll just end up with super dull sounding mixes as they'll fully mix to the sound of them and try and get them sounding like what they are used to
@@PaulThirdI never found this to be BS at all, NS10 mixes ( if you knew how to user them ) translated really well to other systems. I mean, that's why a lot of engineers used them. Sure, some engineers hated them ( personally I hate Genelec, I find them too "nice" ) but an awful lot in my circle swore by them.
Im one of those who touched the ns10s to know how I am on the ball park with the lows, no regrets AT ALL
Just like the Beyerdynamic DT 770/880/990's .. I'll never understand why anyone would purposedly fatique themselves to use them. Too harsh.
Very true, scooped and harsh
I use Beyerdynamic DT 770 and Alesis MKII ELEVATE monitors and my mixes are absolutely fantastic 🔥!!! A trained ear can mix on anything !!!
@@psychedelicelvis-777 I've used mentioned models for years and I won't disagree with your statement, but they are just harsh for some people, and that's not worth training your ears for... It's a common fact with those DT's. Not to say how much they can damage your ears if they have to be forced to adjust to something overtime. It's important to find the perfect pair that accommodates your hearing to it's best of abilities.
The only pair of DT's there ever was to do so, was the Dt 900 Pro X in that regard. But I'm using Hifiman Sundara's in my daily routine, and that's a killing pair for any occasion.
Just remember, not everyone's hearing is the same. None is superior or inferior to your hearing capabilities and vice versa. It's just how we are, and how we treat ourselves that leads to our decisions.
@@InFiNiGhTe Agreed 👍!!!
I bought the 990s they,re not good at all, I prefer my AKG 240 studio or Presonus HD7 ( great).
I disagree with most of this. You’re still hearing 30hz on your ns10 but it’s just 6db down for example. Considering bob clearmountain haphazardly picked these, it’s rather miraculous how good they are for mixing. To me this video sounds like a person who hasn’t worked on them properly yet is giving opinions. 🤷♂️
Did about 3 mixes on them about 10 years ago in uni and didn't like them. Translation was off cause I tried to make them sound like I wanted them to sound. I was brought up on krk and genelec though so I had a certain sound i expected. I wasn't brought up on them and just couldn't understand how to make them work on systems I trusted. Heard them periodically through my life after that and heard that same resonant hollow thing I don't like.
For whatever reason NS10 users seem to not be actually listening to what I said in the video. I didn't say you couldn't mix on them and I explained why they were so popular. Even said at the end that with the right context and understanding you can make them work. It's simply a differing perspective and it's really twigged a lot of NS10 guys but at the end of the day we are talking £800-£1100 for NS10m studio used or avantones. It's not cheap and the whole video is aimed at those new to the game.
As I said, at least 20 industry engineers in my circle, and not one advised me to buy them. Not one. Id get 1 or 2, but it's an overwhelmingly big no from my circle.
So I thought it would good for those starting out to get that other perspective of them considering that the audio community is so dumbed down these they'll buy anything just cause they are famous.
Its just an opinion
NS10s were really only used as a reference monitor to see what your mix might sound like on a slightly rubbish, domestic speaker.
They were such a joke, it was commonplace to see bits of toilet paper Sellotaped onto the harsh tweeters to help calm them down a bit.
I honestly think they only 'caught on' due to their distinctive appearance and availability.
Dunno, read some of the comments. We've got some proper die hards in there using them as their main reference
I've never seen such a marmite thing in the game. Interesting though as there are many who still swear by them to this day and others who wouldn't reccomend them to anybody, especially beginners
I'm looking forward to this the rest of this series!
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Really interesting to hear a thought-out opposing viewpoint! I would love to hear a discussion between you and an industry veteran, like say Jordan Valeriote, who swears by NS10s with very some well-founded reasoning. Rock on Paul, this video was a great introduction to your channel for me.
Tbh I think it's important to have all perspectives. In audio there's not really any right or wrong answers, merely differences of opinion of what is right and wrong.
Sometimes youtube swings hard in one specific direction and needs to be brought back to the middle. Objectivity is key. There are valid reasons to use and not to use NS10's, it's just about giving the audience that balance of opinion and perspective because as soon as we lose that we lose the ability to make our own informed decision
@@PaulThirdprecisely
Great video Paul! I can tell you had fun making this and am glad your finding more avenues that you enjoy to make videos about. (I remember when you got sick and tired of your great but tedious to make plugin analysis videos)
I think once you free yourself from the shackles of new product reviews you start to feel a bit more free again to make videos about the current rabbit hole
It’s easy to be cynical in 2004 about NS10s. Sure, any mid priced monitor today will give you more information than an NS10. That has never been the issue. Back in the day (and still today) most big studios had (have) large wall mounted monitors to check the bottom end, but most of the carving was (and still is) done on near field monitors.
It’s precisely because NS10s were originally created for the domestic, home listening environment that their usefulness has been valued over 4 decades. We all know they roll off from 200hZ-70hZ and yes the 2k bump. But that’s exactly why they were so useful. As you pointed out in your video Paul, (short of hifi enthusiast) the majority of listening devices were pretty crappy: radios, boom boxes, shitty car speakers, cheap cassette players, shitty headphones, transistor radios etc.
Evaluating NS10s in that context, they had not only a ‘taming’ effect of the harsher frequencies which were an issue with crappy listening ing devices, but a frequency range that represented the vast majority of listening devices.
Historical context matters. Thousands of amazing sounding albums were mixed on them. (Roxy Music’s Avalon, Steely Dan’s Aja, Tears For Tears - Women in chains come to mind).
It’s a given there are much better, way more detailed monitors today to choose from, and also more genres to accommodate that require a full frequency range.
It all changed around 2000 when Dr Dre introduced heavy subs into his production with his ‘The chronic / Snoop Dogg’s Doggy Style albums. Ironically he still uses NS10s as well as well as the Auratones in mono. Go figure, right?
Could very well be a case of ‘paralysis by analysis’ Mr. Third
Tbh being autistic I'm a man that looks for patterns and averages and the pattern was that most engineers have stopped relying on NS10's and moved on to more full range neutral speakers.
NS10's had their place but when I say every industry mixer I asked in private advised against them, you are talking at least 20.
Its kinda like analog and digital, sure all the classic records were mixed on consoles to tape but that's not the way now for many reasons.
As Jaycen Joshua once quoted
"you can't mix modern sounding records without modern tools"
Its just how the world works, to progress in anything you need one foot in the past and one foot in the present
I think a strong opinion either way is damaging for new/upcoming engineers.
If people want NS10’s, get them. If you’re not into that thing, don’t get them.
I sold my mains and forced myself to stay on NS10’s for years. Did a lot for my understanding of setting compression and 2-5kHz balancing. I also much prefer speakers with an opinion, not super accurate and detailed speakers. I don’t need all that info when mixing, or I’ll miss all the broad moves that make things translate and focus on small shit that doesn’t even matter.
I’m on Amphion One18’s now but I will never sell my NS10’s.
Don't worry about the people who missed the point of this, Paul. Your intent was very clear and it was a good reminder of how much context matters.
Thank you
I've been in the studio biz. Longer than Bob Clearmountain. In fact. I had gone to work. At the same studio. Bob Clearmountain worked at. The legendary Media Sound Studios, NYC. Where I was hired on as a Maintenance Engineer back in 1979. When Bob Clearmountain had just resigned as a Staff Engineer. And had gone Freelance.
And Bob was working with those Yamaha, NS-10. But I forgot to ask him. One or 2 ply's? And which brand of toilet paper? As this would be a big factor. Some toilet paper is like, thin tracing paper. While other toilet paper is thick and plush. And so which one to use? And that has never been discussed. Like Boxers or Jockeys? Which do you choose and why? How about no underwear and just a jockstrap instead? No?
So I can't stand the sound of those, NS-10's. Buddy engineers of mine that do work on them. Tell me. When their make sounds really awful on those, NS-10's. Then they know it's good! What?
I am sorry I cannot work that way. I have 3 pairs of switch selectable monitor speakers in my control room. And they are daddy bear, mommy bear and baby bear -sized. The small ones being Auratones or, Fostex 6301 or, Radio Shaft Minimus-7. For my small monitor selection. I have all of those. For the mama bear sized monitors. I have KRK and Tannoy. For my big main monitors. It's always been the JBL's. Those are the Gold Standard in Monitor Speakers. They just can't be beat. It's the sound.
Where better speakers costing much more. Can actually initially sound better. You might find in a few hours. You are suffering from ear fatigue. But they initially sounded better than JBL's. Which I can work on for upwards of, 16 hours or more. Without getting ear fatigue. So this must mean something?
Yes it means. Better is not necessarily, better. It is merely, different. And if that difference, makes you a famous engineer? Only then might you want to switch speaker company alliances? But I've learned to stick with JBL. There are excellent reasons for doing that. They are not a fly-by-night company. They been around since 1948 and theoretically before that. Under the auspices of, Altec Lansing. Same guy. James B. Lansing was his, American stage name. As he was Italian with the actual last name of, Martini. But adopted the name James B. Lansing. And a fascinating story about his life and name. How he got his name James B. Lansing. From something like, Giuseppe Martini. Though that's not necessarily his first name. I'm having a senior moment and can't remember his first name. It's Italian. He wanted to sound more American. James B. Lansing definitely sounds more American.
And so there will always be those engineers that want to work on NS-10's. And my hat goes off for them. That they can work on and tolerate those, atrocious sounding abominations. Yamaha wanted to call, hi-fi speakers. Really? It's horrible bullshit.
While Yamaha does make some other models.. That do sound, outstanding. Kind of like JBL's with a Japanese twist. I've heard, liked and could work. On some of their other slightly larger models. But not those atrocious, NS-10's.
And while Bob Clearmountain popularized the toilet paper over the tweeter. Has he ever bothered to reveal. What brand and thickness of toilet paper he has been using? No. He has not. So is possibly all bullshit? And he just wants to see how many morons are out there with toilet paper over there Yamaha tweeters LOL?
And so the toilet paper over the tweeters could be some kind of, demented, deranged, elaborate joke? Just to see how many lemmings there are out there? And maybe Bob Clearmountain doesn't use those atrocious NS-10's? Maybe that's all bullshit also? Wouldn't that be funny? I think it would be a riot! To find. He's never used those NS-10's. It was all an elaborate hoax. I mean you just don't know?
I certainly understand the toilet paper over the tweeters. If you've ever heard those before yourself? You would want to put an entire roll of toilet paper over those Yamaha tweeters. Not just one sheet, slice. But the whole role. Over the tweeter. So we don't have to hear it! I made those are Ugh sounding speakers. Who would want to have to mix an album on those horrible things? I would rather shoot myself! It would be a kinder way to go. Then having to contend with their horrible sound. You have to be some kind of moron to subject yourself to that. Besides most of us were using Auratones. And that was a great reference. That is more similar. To what everybody else is going to be listening upon.
(More Not Tens in following post)
LOL I've been ranting about this since the 1990s ;D Genelec 1030A became the new industry standard back in 1998, and I learned to like them ... Now, how's about the small, cheap Mackie speakers? The black and poison-green ones??
I used to judge the low end on NS10's by how much the surround on the bass driver was crinkling up. Also, do not buy a pair. You are not missing out on anything. They are objectively offensive to listen to.
i rented a studio in london last summer so i could use their $15,000 Augspurger speakers to dial in my low end. after 5 hours of work playing references and everything sounding PERFECT.....i flipped over to the ns-10's and played my references and my mix was suddenly needing more work! the mid range punch was SO apparently lacking in my mix once i turned on the ns10's that I immediately fly back home and bought a pair of ns10's and a Quad 405 amp....BEST decision ever.....100hz to 50 hz is SO distracting. absolutely love my Focal trio's but the ns10s are just as useful.
I've always found it interesting when people say that low end is distracting when I talk to other mixers like Prizzie Reid or Tim Palmer who will tell me that the mix just falls into place when you get the low end right. I know so many mixers that work so hard on the low end and then others that don't really prioritise it as much.
Such a diverse world
WHERE IT ALL STARTED
The NS-10 was first launched in 1978 … but not as a studio monitor. Instead, it was originally designed as a Hi-Fi speaker for consumers, designated the NS-10M, complete with a cloth grille. While it did not do well on the consumer level, it soon became a phenomenon in recording studios (sans grille), thanks largely to engineer/producer Greg Ladanyi (Fleetwood Mac, Don Henley, Jackson Browne), who brought a pair of NS-10s to the U.S. after a trip to Japan and became one of the first early adopters of the speakers.
The NS-10M had a modest frequency range of 85 Hz to 20 kHz, and power handling of just 25 -50 watts, yet its admittedly less-than-perfect sound turned out to be a secret weapon in the studio. Almost magically, it exposed any sonic flaws in the audio, allowing for corrections to be made during the production process. You literally had to work hard on them to make your recordings sound great. Music mixed on NS-10s would translate well to the end users listening to playback systems in their living rooms, bedrooms and cars. It wasn’t long before these mysterious speakers started to become a mainstay in recording studios around the world.
The NS-10M had a limited bass response, with a rolloff beginning at around 200 Hz, and a prominent boost in the upper midrange of some +5 dB at around 2 kHz, but it did have an extremely fast transient response (that is, it responded especially quickly to changes in level) thanks to its extremely lightweight drivers and unported, enclosed design. Unfortunately, this also resulted in a somewhat over-bright upper treble response. As a result, many engineers were known to tape tissue paper over the tweeters, sparking an endless (and somewhat silly) debate about the brand and ply of toilet paper required. This decidely low-tech correction would, it was felt, not only help tame the high frequencies but also create a quasi-comb filtering effect, with some frequencies reflected back into the tweeter.
That's why so many great mixes were done with them as mixing engineers understood their weaknesses foibles and worked round them.
Even today nothing is perfect.
What is perfect?
hub.yamaha.com/proaudio/recording/a-history-of-yamaha-studio-reference-monitors/#:~:text=While%20it%20did%20not%20do,first%20early%20adopters%20of%20the
This sounded like very well reasoned advice that accounts for how the tech has just moved on. I also got a nice affirmation for my decision to buy my Kali LP-6 v2 last year. I also just loved your Glaswegian brogue. It was like listening to Winston, my spirit animal from Still Game. AWESOME! Gone is the notion to even think of some NS-10 as even a reference. I next reference will just be better monitors like a pair of Adam's, or perhaps Neumann's.
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Putting your hands on any speakers is a great way to get a tactile feel of how crazy your transients are in the mix; try it with some commercial mixes!
NS10 is shyt. Toilet paper anybody? Iykyk 😂
You make really good points. I'd love to hear you speak about Auratones :)
Sound like old school radio to me, thats all I can say
Have you actually used them Paul? They are uniquely useful. Sure, they divide opinion, but there is no absolute way to judge the effectiveness of NS10s.
I’ve had NS10s in the studio on and off for 20 years and I struggled to appreciate them, its been relatively recent that I’ve understood what is so appealing about them.
A quality I think is not acknowledged - some might say - design fault, is they do not project into the mix room, but sit flat in the speaker. If your room is not perfectly balanced, they are almost isolated and this does provide a kind of ‘clean’ listening image. I think this, makes them especially unusual and particularly good in translation. To focus on its sound quality, is to miss the point, they are not pretty sounding and they do not have the low end of modern speakers…thats not necessarily a bad thing.
I wouldn’t advise anyone to buy NS10s as a sole monitor, or even as a second monitor out of hand, but I might to someone who describes a particular frustration with other monitoring options.
The way to appreciate the NS10 - in my opinion, is as a tool like no other, almost a type of audio meter, it won’t necessarily be the reason your mixes are great, but it can be extremely useful for hearing how the mix really is, I’ve not heard any other monitor do this quite so well.
I get that but the avantones are £800-£1100. If you could pick them up cheap then yeah I get it but that's a big investment considering what you could get elsewhere for that.
When I heard them in treated studios I didn't like them. It's the hollowness I didn't like to my ears. Didn't help that there were genelecs in the same room and I heard them A/B'd. Wasn't for me.
Also didn't help that the engineer spoke about them like they were the worst person on earth 😂
Why the fuck do you keep them then?
His response: “nostalgia" 😂
You know how it is, theres always one view that says thing A is the greatest thing ever, only for the next person to say its the worst. Its like arguing over what the best genre of music is. I loathe jazz funk pop, but plenty of people don’t. For some people, the NS10 is unparalleled in their usefulness. Not that I particularly care, I’ve got the avantone cube too, I don’t find them nearly as useful and my main monitors are 25 year old Mackie hr8s, at the end of the day you can mix on anything when you’ve been doing it long enough.
Oh and the NS10S were designed for a totally specific market and meant to be used in a very specific manner. They were designed for small Japanese living rooms to be driven by an amplifier with the loudness switch engaged. That is, they're designed for low-level listening and their frequency response was tailored with that environment as their chief usage.
Interesting
Nice info . I remember when I was a kid and discovering what the loudness button was for :)
I’m gonna mix this up.
NS10’s running through a Trinnov are a game changer. Along with neutral speakers like Neumanns and other modern speakers. All being corrected to the room are amazing.
Corrected NS10s sound amazing, wide and clear, no dips and bumps. The speakers don’t over react to low end but their response goes down to 40Hz.
Presence is clear and comfortable. Hi end rolls off beautifully.
With Trinnov and I guess other systems as well, room correction becomes available to everyone.
Technology has made old and new speakers on par with each other, thus helping the overall average decisions engineers and mixers need to make in split seconds.
Also, in the control room, tracking guitars playing in the control room on NS10s with no correction is so vibey!
Feedback wonderful 💥
Also, NS10s used as a speaker in a chamber sound top on drums.
Also, did I mention I like NS10s😂
I am not sponsored by Yamaha…. I’ll get me coat!
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@@PaulThirdAbsolutely. It’s my job helping artists and bands achieve our best.
No, I won’t mention No. 1 albums 😂
Totally agree! NS-10m (driven by Bryson amps) with subs and Trinnov user here. Along with the NS10s being my main monitors, I also use iLoud MTMs and Audeze MM500 to mix and each of them give me a different perspective, then I have ATCs to check for loud volumes; I still think NS10s are irreplaceable for me, many times I thought I could maybe stop using NS10s as I have so many sets, but I just keep coming back to them, I there’s something to do with the phase
@@mho010 which subs do you use with your ns10s ?
Didn't Sir Mix-a-Lot have a song about nailing low-end?
Within reason one can mix on almost anything… NS10 were used predominantly by mix engineers back in the 80's and they worked through the next couple of decades using the same speakers bringing the ubiquitous use of Yammies into the 2000's BUT, they simply had years of experience using them. Many worked in the same studios they knew the room and the NS10 speakers and therein lays the unfortunate truth…. There is no substitute for experience and years of practice.
All about the journey
Didn't enjoy my encounter with NS-10s. I can see how they would help as an alternative viewpoint to full-range speakers but I'm more a cube speaker kind of guy. Regardless, the music is in the mids and sparkling highs and rumbling lows are the icing, not the cake. Whatever helps you get the mids right is the right speaker for you.
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I have never been in a professional studio with NS-10's as the main monitor. In any studio you have your mains (full range with sub - get loud, sound great, impress clients and artist), and your alternates NS10's, Auratone's, Tannoy PBM's, boom boxes, mono radio - whatever, the more the merrier. I was lucky enough to assist many Grammy nominee's and winners. Words of wisdom that stuck with me from one of them was "All speakers lie" - As I got older and could afford more speakers I just say "All speakers sound different." Sounds simplistic because it is.
- Don't get into the "these speaker are flatter then those speakers crowd" or producer "X" mixes with them so they must be good. They may be good for him/her but not for you. Remember your personal hearing curve is as unique as the speaker itself. I know I have a dip in the 2-4k and another in the 8k range from years of live gigs, that is why NS10's don't bother me as much as somebody that has better hearing in that range. Vanilla and chocolate. If you have a bump in that part of your hearing NS10's may sound like nails on a chalkboard at high volume to you.
If you are spending big money. Don't buy speakers if you can't demo a bunch of speakers at the same time and switch between them at all different volumes. Find the pair that fit your hearing. It is amazing how different they sound next to each other. I personally dislike every rear ported speaker I have owned (seems to be pretty common design for lower priced speakers) Rear ports make placement toooo crucial - I find them hard to dial in when rooms are less then perfect. Give me a front port and that extra ported low-end is coming straight "at me" not building up against the wall in the corner behind the console.
All the alt speakers have their own tricks so use their strengths, but know their weaknesses, they all lie don't trust any "one" speaker for everything. AND yes totally agree - save you money for a great monitoring setup more so than plugins.
The most important mix centric words of wisdom imparted on me has to be "use a reference mix or more" A/B against what "you know" sounds good everywhere and don't lie to yourself. Else you may find you chasing your tail. A/B your mix against the reference on NS10's and they should sound sonically similar, same for your mains, Auratones, KRK's, JBLs, Genelec's, Tannoy's, Adam's etc.
Theoretically, you should be able to mix any speakers with proper A/B-ing technique - However it is so much more pleasant mixing on speakers that you like sound of.
I'm down a speaker journey just now and I've found that there are certain speakers I can and can't mix great on. Speakers are very personal
I think it’s well known the ns10s sound like shit. I had KRK RP6 for a good 10 years till a couple of years ago when they blew up. Man I wish I had gotten rid of sooner. I knew they were shit but just couldn’t get my head round buying new monitors. I got the Neumann kh120s now and they are beautiful.
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I still use pair of NS 10's for checking balances and mids. They are very similar to Airpods, but you can use them solo. They are of course not neutral at all, but they teach philosophy of scooping harsh high mids to sound good. I think it's very useful.
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I agree, beginners should not mix on NS10's if it's the only speaker they have. They really don't have the low-end today's music requires. That said, NS10's are an INVALUABLE tool when used as secondary monitors. I mix on a pair of Neumann KH-120A's w/ an HS8S sub, but recently added NS-10M Studio's with a Hafler P1500 to my rig (literally a few days ago). If treating my room, snagging a pair of Nuemann's, and implementing some room correction was the best decision I ever made, adding NS-10's is for sure the third-best decision I've ever made (second-best decision was adding motorized faders). They are incredibly revealing in the mid-range. To really get what you need from them, you need to volume match to your mains so when you A/B you're comparing apples to apples. I'm about to release an EP, and I just ran every track through the NS-10s and was able to make them that 3-5% better (where the real magic lives, at least for my current skill level). Cheers.
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Oh and then there's Dark Side Of The Moon, which's mixed by (forgot his name, haha) on Alan Parsons' JBL monitors, which he still has and DSOTM became sorta standard for audiophiles to properly check an Hi-Fi system they're considering buying and then, at the same time: mention JBL on whatever (engineering) forum and they'll reply with: "are you having a laugh???". Opinions, opinions... what's fact in the audio industry? I can at least nam one: noone wants to mix a Yoko Ono album, unless they get paid a million
No right or wrong answers. Just opinions.. EXCEPT when the client is involved then it whatever they think is right... Mostly haha
I quit my Yamaha HS-5's and sub for a pair of CLA NS 10's. TBH - I hated them..when i I first got them. Worst sounding speakers I have ever heard. That being said, I pursued using them on the advice of my mentor. He warned me I would hate them. However he did say if you can get a mix sounding good on these, said mix will sound good anywhere. He was right. My mixes sound way better now and translate everywhere. Took me a year to get into the zone. I do use Sonarworks too, and check the low end on Sennheiser HD headphones.
I do rate these speakers - not for the sound - it is crap - but translation, a hell yeah
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I fucking hate them and could never get a good mix on them. I could have forced myself, because you can get used to mixing on anything eventually. Thank God I got a pair of Mackie 824s when they came out. They weren't the best, but they made a lot more sense to my ears at the time, and I did a lot of great work on them. They approached the "flat" trend, and were among the first affordable powered speakers. BTW, I have a pair on NS-10M Studios in great condition, barley used since I bought them in the early 2000s if anyone is interested!
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I mixed an awful lot of club music and dance hits back in the 90's on Ns10's and loved them. I found the translation excellent once you knew how to use them. I'm firmly in the "get it sounding good on NS10's and it'll sound good everywhere" camp. I wasn't using NS10's alone though, I was using them with other reference speakers ( Dynaudio M2's for a good while. )
Haven't used them in years now though ( although I do have a pair in my front room ) I now prefer my ADAM A7x's ( with a sub ) and Auratones for mid reference and also use a £10 x-mini from ebay for the whole phone reference thing. I'm also a live engineer so I have access to club/venue/festival rigs to test sub too which is great.
You can't deny the amount of hits mixed on NS10's though, they definitely had their day.
Yup, HAD their day being the correct statement haha
I'm more impressed with the engineers who made them work, fair play
No one's advising beginners to mix on NS-10s lol
That's definitely an advanced technique, and a wildly overrated one at that. A few guys did it back in the day, now everyone does it.
That's how it goes in the audio world.
I don't even use mine anymore. They're just sitting on the console as more of a relic
We are way past the days where mixing on a set of shitty old shelf speakers is useful lol
(but they are cool to have)
Check the comments, there are genuinely those who argue that I'm wrong for NOT advising NS10's to beginners
I think it’s all about learning the speakers and understanding what they are good for and not good for. NS10s (from my experience using the realphones system lmao) are only good to hyper focus on the mid range and find frequencies that should be cut in the mids. That’s about it tho, doing fader balance or compression or other things doesn’t work well cause you don’t get the proper feedback. I feel a different way about the BIG speakers for hearing subs and setting bass. I think it’s great for almost everything when mixing except properly checking the kids for “pokies” and transient designing to shaping is absolutely horrendous on it. You think you hear something happening to your transients and you do some work but when you listen outside it’s completely off and sounds bad. These things are just a tool not a holy grail.
Correct, just a tool, not the secret to amazing mixes, that comes from experience
I know what I'm doing. I know what I'm mixing. When I'm on my JBL Studio Control Room Monitor Speakers. I can be confident and solid, in my decision-making. And since I specialize in Live Recordings and Live Broadcasts. I don't have the advantage. Of having everything all perfect. In a nice studio. No. I get none of that.
I get lots of noise, lots of distortion. Coming off the secondary side of the, microphone splitter transformers. No remote recording guy would tolerate! Except Me. I am Extremely Tolerant. And I love a Challenge. I also love doing Live Broadcasts and Live Recordings. Where everything is only Take-1. And who ever heard of recording an entire rock 'n' roll album and only 1 take?
But that's what, Audio Engineers, like myself. I have to deliver. Because I went on the air. Coast to Coast and/or around the world on the satellite. And I could have between 3 and 10 million people listening at the same time. To my engineering. That gets a bit, intimidating. Don't you think? And you have to do it on Take-1. And only 1. You don't get to start again or restart. You don't get, Take-2. You can't fix it in the mix. It all has to be right. Right out of the door. With the downbeat. And no microphone checks. No sound checks. I have to be Clairvoyant! I have to be a mental Telepath. I have to voodoo and Black Magic. And luckily. I don't have to do any of that, Sober! Do not have to. Not recommended to be, sober. Not when you have between three and 10 million people listening. Would you want to be sober for that? Of course not!
So you have to practice a lot with beer and pot. Before you can start charging people. And I practiced, a lot! You can also.
And I came up with stuff like this:
soundcloud.com/remyrad/track08
And other stuff like this from local yokels in Austin, Texas.
soundcloud.com/user-135130368/sets/live-at-electric-church-fm-sessions-vol-1
I do these, without, sound checks, microphone checks. The entire mix is worked out within the first 60 seconds. Of their first song. I get 60 seconds. To develop a hit sounding mix. With bands I've never heard before. People I've never worked with. Repertoire I've never heard. And using all cheap,, PA microphones. There is not a single studio microphone in use here. Unless you also consider some $30 each Taiwanese made RadioShack microphones, Professional? Because you are listening to some here. It's very funny. Drum overheads and room microphones are, 1984, Radio Shaft, PZM, microphones. I love them. I have, eight of those from 1984. I also have the expense of American-made, original Crown, versions. Those were quite expensive. They both sound the same. They both work the same. More plastic with the Radio Shaft versions. Same microphone capsule as the expensive Crown's. It's very funny.
You can use anything that actually works. Different results will be had. So your listeners don't have to be. And sold a bill of goods. The only high-end equipment. Can produce, popular hit recordings. That might've been true, 50 years ago, 40 years ago, 30 years ago? Not so much anymore. They've managed to make things sound good, cheaply today. I don't mind using it. When I'm forced to. Because I do like the nice expensive stuff best. And lucky that I was able own all that expensive stuff for many decades. Now I've paid it all forwards. I'm done. I'm 68. Time to have some retirement fun. Become a Nomad and just go driving around the USA. And maybe in every city I stop in. I shall find that little, corner bar. Where the local, singing guitar guy/gal, plays. Stop in and record them. Interview them. And then on to the next city. And so on and so forth. And I know what will happen then.
I will regret getting rid of my recording truck. LOL. Only to find out I have to build a new one. As of course I'm thinking about it, already. I've already planned it out.. It only takes me about 30 seconds.… To know how I'm going to design. My next. Control Room. And as much as I hate to say it. There's going to be no console, sitting in front of me. Enough with that! That is an, Acoustical Abomination. To have an audio console sitting in front of you. So goodbye audio console!
It'll be more like sitting in your living room. In front of your big-screen TV. Nothing between you and the TV on the wall. Except your little tablet. Will be controlling everything.
Plus people have told me. My Control Room is, Shocking to Hear. It blows everybody's mind when they hear it. People have made mention. How come my puny, Control Room. Sound better than some big luxurious studios? It's called knowing what I'm doing. And knowing the mistakes other people have made. I do nothing special. I just wire everything up the right way. Other people make mistakes and don't know it. They check everything. And they find everything is correct. Except for the sound. And they keep running into this problem. No matter what they do. No matter what they purchase. I think it's very funny.
It's very funny because I think a horrible cruel joke of marketing. Has been played upon, everyone. Except for those of us few. That figured this,, faux pas of a joke out. It could've been a joke that everybody will realize later was one hell of a joke? Because they don't think anything is wrong. As they all have college degrees telling them so.
But never in my life. Have I seen a mathematical equation or a textbook. Listening to anything in a recording studio control room? So what the hell are they saying? They are inanimate. They don't say or do anything. We do! We are alive and corporeal. There is inanimate thingies. And only we can listen to and make decisions upon how things sound. Because mathematical equations and textbooks, don't. All you have to do is listen. The ears are connected to the brain. The brain is connected to your senses. Your senses are connected to the Pot. You can either smoke Pot. Or you can turn a Pot up or down. You can also turn them from side to side. If you should so desire? Because one is Pot and the other is short for Potentiometer. I use both, judiciously or, in my case, Jew-diciously. As I am a Delicious Jew. Just so you know. In all things, delicious.
And Not using Yamaha NS-10's. soundcloud.com/user-135130368/sets/live-at-electric-church-fm-sessions-vol-1
RemyRAD
I've never liked the NS-10. Back in the day the only praise that I heard about them was that everyone used them so you could always have a reference that was available at pretty much all studios. I was, however a fan of the LS3/5a's at the time for nearfield monitoring.
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Actually I heard an opinion that it's wrong to mimick NS10 with EQ, or at least it gives different results than real NS10, but I had a hard time finding the source and some more arguments.
It will give different results but it's just a similar way of isolating the mid range.
Paul McCartney 1st, Paul Young 2nd and Paul Third. Big respect.
I feel so uncomfortable being anywhere near those names haha
Perfect example of a device that more people blindly believe is good, over people who actually know why it’s good.
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Yeah, I guess people who use and like ns10s are just posers. You make a great argument there.
@@stevedoesnt I don't think that's what he meant. I don't think he has anything against anyone who uses them that knows why they're a useful tool.
Yeah, for whatever reason NS10 users have basically taken my opinion and perceived it as slander towards them.
I was pretty clear at the start that it was aimed more at advising beginners starting out in 2024, not those who started out decades ago.
The Audio community is so fucking defensive about everything, see if something doesn't fit their belief, tantrum central
Is anyone seriously recommending NS10's as a main monitor these days?
Guess so. People are weird.
Yeah I've been surprised just how many but tbf to a lot of them they agree that just cause they learned how to use them doesn't mean that they would advise somebody new to the game to start mixing on them.
Without purpose, understanding or context behind buying them you are simply spunking close to a grand for no reason
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Remember to check out my audio podcast where you can check out mine and Ed Thornes mixes
I sold my 1982s NS10s in the early 2000s and bought genelec 1032s.
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personally I love them, I agree with everything you said.
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The guy who mixes on headphones says NS10 are bad! Haha, so many things wrong with this.
Is it because you thought I was slating you? Did you not watch it properly and made up in your head that I was slating NS10 users like you. Did you throw a bit of a cream puff cause you thought I was targeting you specifically instead of beginners? It's OK, you are safe.
I've been getting in trouble for saying this since 1998
Yeah I didn't realise just how much shit this would cause, thought it was pretty explanatory not to advise them for beginners haha but NS10 users have taken it as I'm talking about them instead of advising those learning in this era.
Typical Internet
I thought they were ridiculous when I first saw them appear in studios. But nobody listened to me lol
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Yea, if you're starting out, best to save up and get something modern.
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Everybody does it because everybody does it.
Time domain performance of NS10’s alone are worth the price of admission.
£800-£1100..pretty dear price of admission haha
7:50 nostalgia days 😂. I remember those times veryy well
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I just have them for checking harshness and muddyness
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So, in essence.... does it even matter anymore wether or not you're mixing music on 'dedicated' monitors or on Hi-Fi speakers? To my understanding, back in the day, the studio monitor's designed to sound as neutral as possible, but I certainly believe that, as the years went by, different companies who released studio monitors pretty much fell into the same trap as the Hi-Fi speaker manufacturers did, which's concuration. So, what ís the most neutral sounding monitor in the world and if mixing engineers nowadays are fine with what mixes would sound like on average equipment (so, it's all about business nowadays) instead of audiophile gear, then why not get a decent soundbar at your local Aldi store and mix on those? I might be a tad stupid, so that'why I'm a bit confused an also concerned. Greetings from an (almost) neighbour from the Netherlands. :)
One of the most neutral ones? ATC SCM25, PDP MUM-8, or maybe PSI Audio A25M
Cause you can't mix what you can't hear. I've seen it all as finding a middle ground where it has to sound great upscaled to better monitoring but also work on low quality systems. Normally working on a better system translates better to lower systems, where doing the opposite is a lot harder due to variences in room acoustics, soundstage, transient response, detail retrieval, distortion etc etc
The more variables you add, the harder translation may be
I remember the first PlayStation, it had a CD player 😂 I also remember using cassettes for data storage 😅 I also remember losing the data every time you needed to turn your ZX 81 off 😢 I am old 😭
I still can't believe I used to sit and listen to the radio all night just so I could tape one song.. You had to be rapid back then 😂
@@PaulThird two Akai with the famous gx heads (if memory still works) served me well on those days. And most music I liked came on certain hours, the John Peel show 👍😎
Yeah, they rule
I use em every day on major label mixes
No sub
(I also was trained by Chris (cla) so make of that what you will)
I also have Amphion two 18s w/-sub
But I probably only spend the final 15% of a mix on them.
Trained by CLA.. of course you are using NS10's haha are you not on the barefoots as well though?
CLAs Barefoots are for client listening only@@PaulThird
Once I got so genelec’s my mixes go everywhere fine.
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How to tell whether it is a refurbished product by its appearance?
You'd probably have to open it up and know what you are looking for
Great pacing, tone, and info. Thanks for the effort, enjoyed the video!
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You touched on what makes NS10's (and Auratones) so unique and useful for mixing. They're both closed speakers with extremely fast decay and light drivers that are incredibly detailed when driven with a nice amp. As a second reference, they give you a very clear picture of your mid-range transient response
I think we get so focused on frequency response that we forget how much more important the dynamics can be. You can have a mix with perfectly balanced frequency response that's boring as hell and a thin mix that's punchy and exciting. That said, I'll pick Auratones over NS10's any day of the week because that harsh high end is just an unnecessary distraction
Yeah if you have learn the sound and create an intended purpose then you can essentially make any speaker work for a certain perspective of the mix
I'm with you on transient response - sometimes it's as if the term "slew rate" vanished some time during the 80s! Some people argue that extended highs equate to speed but I disagree if only because the tweeter handles the highs but expecting an 8" woofer to present mid transients accurately is unrealistic. It's one reason I went to three-way speakers with separate amplifier.
I use barefoots and auratones. Never learned NS-10s. I imagine they would be useful but I don’t need a third set of monitors
How would you describe the sound of the barefoots?
@@PaulThird Thunderous & clear. I’m currently working on footprint01s and the low end is impressive
Colt capperrunes trick on cutting pass filters on a master buss eq at 200 and 4k while mixing is a good way to get the mids right without having to buy ns10s
“Ta Max uun Ahn Asss Taans”
The sm57 of speakers
Do you think the auratone5c worth the investment?
Not today. There's tons of options and you can genuinely just high and low pass your speakers to get that only midrange sound
12:54 to 13:02. Golden!
An addition to the NS-10 history part is that the upgraded studio version also broadened the frequency range in the lows from 85hz to 60hz. So basically a completely different speaker.
I had both models and liked checking mixes on them. However I would never have a setup with only the NS-10. So I’m with you there 🙌
What speakers are you using as your mains?
@@PaulThird At the main recording studio I use Dynaudio M3 as mains and in my home studio I mix on Amphion One18. I like them both very much.
I think his mixes are pretty darn good! If I had the physical space, I'd have a pair, but they wouldn't be my only set of speakers. A great mix done on any other speaker will sound good on NS-10's, and a great mix done on NS-10's will sound good on any other speaker. That's been my experience.
An OpEnion
I find Auratones useful but use them in conjunction with Neumann KH 310s. Can't imagine only working on Auratones or NS10s. On the Barefoot topic, I feel like they're an acquired taste. I was so excited to try a few pairs a while back, but they weren't for me at all.
Yeah I've heard that a lot with barefoots. Very hit and miss
My first time in a top studio (late 80s) with a vintage Neve console and all the usual suspects in the racks I was horrified (and disappointed) that the entire mixing session was done on NS10s and the Neve's mono "talkback speaker"! Massive soffit mounted monitors never got a look in. I was extra shocked when the mixes did translate well... so the moral of the story is "familiarity = consistency"
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I have an eq preset on my sub bus . If I'm doing low end I get a good result from making it sound the best it can in that and it also reveals a lot so I'm sticking with it but no I would never buy a pair . Better buy another set of headphones
Since I've heard how N-monitors sound in a treated room, there are no other monitors I'd want to have. Glad they're being produced in Russia, so no illegal sanctions would stop me from buying them
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In my control room I have 4 different sets of monitors. I mix on the NS10s, it’s where I shape my mids. Once I get the mix sounding good on the NS10s I switch to a different (neutral) set of monitors and tweak from there. Don’t underestimate the NS10s but make sure you have a second pair of monitors.
Yeah that's all the video is aiming at, providing context to beginners before starting out instead of just blindly buying something and thinking that they'll be able to get amazing translation out the box. It's a learning curve
I use ns11s that's got one more. Goes up to 11
Add an extra 0 on to the price tag haha
If you’ve never heard an ns10, it sounds like a set of loud car speakers in a really good radio reception area.
White cones, it's that simple.
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I couldnt stand them i got ear fatigue after like 20 minutes.. i purchased kali audio 8s and a Sub.. i turn the sub off till the end of the mix
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Narrator: You cant buy them
You can buy them second hand or get the CLA avantones
My primaries are a pair of Alesis Monitor One Mk][ and I love them.
My secondaries are the PreSonus Eris BT4.5's
I've got both run through SonarWorks Reference ID so both are as flat as possible.
my headphones are DT990 pros
I'm more than happy with my little home studio setup 🙂
It also helps that I listen to EVERYTHING through them as this entire setup is also my primary PC as well so I listen to everything through them, music, movies, tv shows, games etc etc.
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Very good video, and good logic 👏
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I think it makes perfect sense. I mix with high end rolled off always
As someone that worked in studio and broadcast engineering in the late 70s through the present. We used NS-10s and Auratones for reference back when I started. The studio mains which back then were soffit mounted, calibrated, large, time aligned speakers, were used for mixing. We used NS-10s because EVERY studio had them so if you were checking mixes from another studio you needed them. We used Auratones because they had one driver and no crossover and were all midband mostly to emulate the response of a typical car radio system of the time. MoTown used a typical 6x9 car speaker in an Olsen cabinet to simulate the response of a typical car radio of the time. Auratones were great for checking the guitar/vocal mix balance. We rarely used headphones for any kind of mixing, however that is changing and not just due to the Slate VSX system. Headphones have gotten way better than the Koss headphones that were common in studios when I started.
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thank you , NS 10 s replaced Aurotones originally in Island Studios end of the 70 s , I was assistant engineer there at the time , Rhett Davis who had mixed Roxy Music in New York with Bob Clearmountain brought in a pair of NS 10 to Basing Street Studios London and they soon became very popular in pro studios , they are good reference speakers and they look nice
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Solely on NS10’s? Hello No.
A beginner on NS-10’s? Heavens NO. Too steep a learning curve for beginners.
But I still need these little buggers. And I’ve yet to find anything capable of rivaling what they do.
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It's no coincidence that mixes became incredibly 2D when everyone followed the trend and started mixing on them. One reason many UK studios moved onto them was... They bought huge great monitors and then tried to drive them with dreadful PA amps completely oblivious to wattage has little to do with an amplifier's ability to drive and control a speaker. I've heard several sets of fabulous speakers sounding totally gash cos studio managers don't understand that a 50 watt amp that can drive a 2 ohm load is a far superior amplifier than a 500 watt amp that struggles to push 700 Watts into a 4 ohm load and , in effect, dies trying to drive anything lower. Ergo, they'd "prefer" the NS10s for long sessions. Yes, that's how bad some expensive facilities main monitors sounded cos of not understanding amplifiers.
Just like headphone amps of today
"my £1200 audezes don't sound as good through my scarlett hp amp"
"that's cause they needed driven properly"
"but it sounds loud enough for me"
... 🙈🙈🙈
And here's my take on the subject: some monitors work for some people, not for others.
I know some engineers who make great work on ns10's. Others who swear by them to check their work or specific elements on...I bought a pair and barely if ever use them.
So in the end it's just whatever works for the engineer in question.
True but at £800-£1100 it's not a throwaway thing. It's a substantial investment for something that is pot luck if it works out for you
That's why I advise against them. If they were like £150 or something then yeah fill your boots and take a shot in the dark
Fully agree. Never understood the hype around the NS10s. Why would you want to mix with no low end, especially rock? Makes no sense at all.
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I work on NS10s with a sub, so I think some things, but I will only say I think a discussion about them (positive or negative) would be much more effective if you had mixed on them before.
I did, I want to say 2 or 3 mixes on them about 10 years ago in uni as they had a room I was able to get into on the odd occasion and never liked them. Just always sounded strange to me but that's probably cause I was used to krk's and genelecs.
NS10's had this hollow resonant thing I never gravitated towards and when I'd put the NS10 mix up on the krks the balance was completely off cause I tried to make them sound like I wanted them to sound. Just confused the shit out of me due to my inexperience.
And then about 3 years ago I was in another studio and heard that same sound I really didn't like. It's like audio PTSD 😂 as soon as I hear them I'm like.. Get off now! 🤣
If they work for you, they work for you, and I know I did a good job showcasing why they were popular and I didn't say people couldn't get good mixes on them, I simply said from the off that I don't understand the logic behind why people would advise a beginner to mix on them.
It seems to have hit a trigger with many NS10 users (not meaning you) and their defensiveness has kicked in and they haven't actually listened to a word I've said.
I watched it back and I know in my heart of hearts that I was as fair as can be and not once did I say that you can't mix on them. I just disagree with those advising £800-£1100 limited speakers that also require a £500 sub (making it £1300-1600) to those starting out considering you can get a decent 3 way now and still have change left over for room treatment which is more important
Maybe in the future we will have mixes that are catered to perform best for your listening system and not the one mix & master that fits all .... The one thing i notice about music that was mixes back in the days of the NS10s was that the music wasn't fatiguing overly bassy or trebly leaving space for the music to breath and sound natural.. Don't get me wrong we all love a song with great bass , But is it natural to get music to go all the way down to 30hz .. Just saying
Dunno there are some tracks that just work better to my ears with well controlled low end. Especially some of the atmos mixes. As soon as I sorted the low end in my atmos room I could really appreciate the kali ws6.2