The key is unloading the transmission to shift. Clutch or throttle work, but timing with throttle is also key. You dont want engine braking load either.
They key here is that motorcycle transmissions use dogs and not synchros. On a car you use the clutch so the synchros can do their work and, basically, compensate for poor shifting. Allowing regular people to downshift without rev matching.
Constant mesh doesn´t mean much in this context. The idea behind it is to transmission last longer and don´t get noisy as fast since hard shifts wear gear dogs and not main teeth. Pulling the clutch doesn´t stop it from spinning but half is just freewheeling under inertia and bit of oil friction.
Short answer yes ..but try grabbing a handful of clutch when your already battling to hold on on a dirt track . On my road bike whether on track or road i always use the clutch as there is no battle to hold on .
@@paulstace6058 I mean either way is fine, if you use the clutch to shift you are just putting extra wear on your clutch. If you don’t use the clutch you’re not putting extra wear on anything. However, engine braking on a 2 stroke is a bad idea
I had a throwout bearing fail on a F-250 and went for a month or so without clutch (up in Alaska where it takes time to get parts). Shifting into higher gears is easy enough; downshifting requires to stop at neutral for a moment and rev up the engine to gets the parts spinning. Getting started in first gear is hard; I just started the engine already in first.
It’s a little different in a vehicle transmission, yours had synchros and not dogs so stuff does physically move in the tranny when you pull the clutch
@@1661st_Moto "yours had synchros" I felt bad about putting that kind of wear on the synchro rings but was pretty good about matching RPM and the gears slipped right in.
Its still not ok to do.With a wet clutch you don't have to worry about that.With a dry clutch system you are going to cause some type of damage in the transmission.
my clutch is there for taking off, and on some bikes, the first/second shift is a bit harsh without it... everywhere else its just... shift? never quite comprehend these people that say they "cant tell when to shift"? like, cant you HEAR? only gearbox i damaged was stupidity, and with the clutch... coasting down the local twisty nohands, neutral (when theres traffic, its a test to see if you can do the 5km downhill run no hands?)... final hairpin, popped it into first rather than second... CRUNCH. oops. hyosungs got some bad press but i put another 150,000km on that thing missing... third i think it was (not the gear i was actually going for?)... and forever pulling metal chunks out the oil :) finally died when a bolt in the alternator basket let go and shredded it all... with 350,000 on it...
Thanks for the explanation! Would you happen to know what would cause a fair amount of free play in the transmission while in gear? Like with the engine not running, I engage 1st or 2nd or whatever gear, and I can rock the bike back and forth almost a quarter turn of the rear wheel before it stops, unlike in your vid for example @01:42 where you are able to reverse the direction of rotation instantly. It's bothering, because while riding at low rpm or with a barely open throttle, the bike jerks and studders violently, I have to keep it revved up for a smooth ride .. talking about a 2016 Suzuki Bandit 1250 6-speed transmission. Thank you for any advice
@@ghassanalfarra8935 hmmmm. How do the splines look on the sprocket on the output shaft? Also, the rubber dampeners from your hub to the sprocket may be shot
@@1661st_Moto ty for the quick reply, sprockets and chain are new, but that didn't make a difference at all in the amount of free play, and the rubber dampeners are in good condition, snug in the hub. The drive shaft as a whole has free play with a grear engaged, not just the sprocket nor the rear wheel.
I think when you look at extremes you have to admit that gear changes using full clutch disengagement and full throttle closure would be gentler on every part from the knobs to the crank. That being said we’re trying to get somewhere in a hurry and certain sacrifices have to be made. My question is, how much additional wear does it cause in the gear case when using no clutch vs a quick clutch disengagement during fast shifts? Probably not much. But if I was buying a used bike I’d prefer the one that was ridden by a “little old lady from Pasedena.” Most of you are too young to get that reference but you’ll get the point. 😂
@@someonethatwatchesyoutube2953 the only way it’s going to cause any sort of damage to the transmission is if your transmission bearings are worn. That would mean the transmission gets slightly torqued to one side or the other during acceleration because of a load on the transmission. If bearings are good, the shafts are completely straight the whole time and the gears slide over smooth as butter every shift regardless of clutch action
@@1661st_Motothis is the dumbest answer I ever read. A short drive involves dozens of shifts. You're young, so maybe you don't understand what it means to get 200-300 k miles from a transmission. But it's normal if you use the clutch pedal regularly and gently. And a clutch is $150-$300 bucks, while a rebuilt transmission starts around $3000. Why mess around? You can train for fun, but don't pretend clutches aren't critical. They are. Semi trucks have super close gear spacing to mitigate the issue of only having a synchro on first. Totally different from a six speed passenger car.
Hard to demonstrate with just one hand while filming with the other,,, that said you explained pretty good. Another thing, can you please explain why you welded a separate aluminum plug where the drain bolt went ??? If the threads were stripped you could have just tapped the hole to the next size up. Or even seen people change inch to metric bolts and vise versa if there was not much meat left for ovesized bolt.......
Wiseco crank exploded, they repaired the whole engine under warranty. That was their call. Doesn’t leak any fluids and looks decent and is good and strong.
@@1661st_Moto Every car with a manual transmission has constant mesh between the gears except reverse in some cars. The difference is car transmissions have synchronizers and minimal backlash between the splines that actually do the shifting. In a motorcycle transmission, they greatly increase the backlash between the splines to give the splines time to mesh. They also do this in dogbox transmissions to allow racers to shift without the clutch (think of drag racing) Regardless, Every manual transmission in a vehicle, the gears are constantly meshed together just like this motorcycle transmission. Just because it is constantly meshed doesn't mean you can shift without a clutch.
@@crissd8283 unless you drive a 1929 dodge or 1915 rover... lol, at one point crash boxes were CRASH boxes... the gears moved in and out of mesh. actually. my tractors a crash box... can do a 4th to 5th shift, just... you stop rolling almost instantly, so its hard... and the 5th to 6th is easy... then youre redlining and topped out at a blistering 13km/h... WEEEE! but then, tractors arent intended for "shifting on the move". another difference between bikes and cars is the shifting mechanism itself. the forks move back and forth, shifting dogs... but theyre actuated differently. you only select one rod, and can only move one rod back and forth at a time. underneath the synchromesh, all gearboxes are fundamentally the same. (lol, dont start me on autos...) that cam drum on a bike is shifting two or three shafts AT THE SAME TIME. it can disengage a gear, leave a "neutral" before slamming another gear in place, simply by the shape of the cams. its almost instant, whereas the gate of a car box means that there is a fairly large delay between popping out of one gear and then slipping into the next one. 1st to second, third to fourth, both on one rod apiece. but there still has to be enough space for the 2nd to 3rd, and 4th to 5th, which both change selector rod, and for the opposite, the downshifts. that big sloppy gap between all gears has to be there cus the box doesnt know if youre shifting up or down... the way they accurate and the arrangement of the gears on the two shafts is entirely different. which two gears actually sit side by side... shifting on a bike with no clutch comes naturally, its intutive. clutchless shifting on a car... depends on the car, the driver, which way the suns facing, the primary flight feathers of an unrelated duck... some just "do it"... others adamantly REFUSE...
@@DimensionFluke if you have a constant mesh transmission, regardless of rpm your transmission is all constantly spinning at the same speed. Doesn’t damage anything given the bearings are all in good shape allowing 0 side to side play
The key is unloading the transmission to shift. Clutch or throttle work, but timing with throttle is also key. You dont want engine braking load either.
They key here is that motorcycle transmissions use dogs and not synchros.
On a car you use the clutch so the synchros can do their work and, basically, compensate for poor shifting. Allowing regular people to downshift without rev matching.
Constant mesh doesn´t mean much in this context. The idea behind it is to transmission last longer and don´t get noisy as fast since hard shifts wear gear dogs and not main teeth.
Pulling the clutch doesn´t stop it from spinning but half is just freewheeling under inertia and bit of oil friction.
@@tarnvedra9952 all of it is spinning 100% of the time you are in motion. What does pulling in the clutch change?
@@1661st_Moto As I said half is freewheeling. Spinning and spinning under load are not the same thing.
@@tarnvedra9952 if the transmission bearings are in good shape, it can be. Just have to have 0 side to side play
Short answer yes ..but try grabbing a handful of clutch when your already battling to hold on on a dirt track .
On my road bike whether on track or road i always use the clutch as there is no battle to hold on .
@@paulstace6058 I mean either way is fine, if you use the clutch to shift you are just putting extra wear on your clutch. If you don’t use the clutch you’re not putting extra wear on anything. However, engine braking on a 2 stroke is a bad idea
I had a throwout bearing fail on a F-250 and went for a month or so without clutch (up in Alaska where it takes time to get parts). Shifting into higher gears is easy enough; downshifting requires to stop at neutral for a moment and rev up the engine to gets the parts spinning. Getting started in first gear is hard; I just started the engine already in first.
It’s a little different in a vehicle transmission, yours had synchros and not dogs so stuff does physically move in the tranny when you pull the clutch
@@1661st_Moto "yours had synchros"
I felt bad about putting that kind of wear on the synchro rings but was pretty good about matching RPM and the gears slipped right in.
Its still not ok to do.With a wet clutch you don't have to worry about that.With a dry clutch system you are going to cause some type of damage in the transmission.
In both cases, the clutch disconnects the engine from the transmission, but also, in both cases, the clutch does nothing inside the transmission.
my clutch is there for taking off, and on some bikes, the first/second shift is a bit harsh without it... everywhere else its just... shift? never quite comprehend these people that say they "cant tell when to shift"? like, cant you HEAR?
only gearbox i damaged was stupidity, and with the clutch... coasting down the local twisty nohands, neutral (when theres traffic, its a test to see if you can do the 5km downhill run no hands?)... final hairpin, popped it into first rather than second... CRUNCH. oops.
hyosungs got some bad press but i put another 150,000km on that thing missing... third i think it was (not the gear i was actually going for?)... and forever pulling metal chunks out the oil :) finally died when a bolt in the alternator basket let go and shredded it all... with 350,000 on it...
Thanks for the explanation! Would you happen to know what would cause a fair amount of free play in the transmission while in gear? Like with the engine not running, I engage 1st or 2nd or whatever gear, and I can rock the bike back and forth almost a quarter turn of the rear wheel before it stops, unlike in your vid for example @01:42 where you are able to reverse the direction of rotation instantly.
It's bothering, because while riding at low rpm or with a barely open throttle, the bike jerks and studders violently, I have to keep it revved up for a smooth ride .. talking about a 2016 Suzuki Bandit 1250 6-speed transmission.
Thank you for any advice
@@ghassanalfarra8935 hmmmm. How do the splines look on the sprocket on the output shaft? Also, the rubber dampeners from your hub to the sprocket may be shot
@@1661st_Moto ty for the quick reply, sprockets and chain are new, but that didn't make a difference at all in the amount of free play, and the rubber dampeners are in good condition, snug in the hub.
The drive shaft as a whole has free play with a grear engaged, not just the sprocket nor the rear wheel.
I think when you look at extremes you have to admit that gear changes using full clutch disengagement and full throttle closure would be gentler on every part from the knobs to the crank. That being said we’re trying to get somewhere in a hurry and certain sacrifices have to be made. My question is, how much additional wear does it cause in the gear case when using no clutch vs a quick clutch disengagement during fast shifts? Probably not much.
But if I was buying a used bike I’d prefer the one that was ridden by a “little old lady from Pasedena.”
Most of you are too young to get that reference but you’ll get the point. 😂
@@someonethatwatchesyoutube2953 the only way it’s going to cause any sort of damage to the transmission is if your transmission bearings are worn. That would mean the transmission gets slightly torqued to one side or the other during acceleration because of a load on the transmission. If bearings are good, the shafts are completely straight the whole time and the gears slide over smooth as butter every shift regardless of clutch action
@@1661st_Motothis is the dumbest answer I ever read. A short drive involves dozens of shifts. You're young, so maybe you don't understand what it means to get 200-300 k miles from a transmission. But it's normal if you use the clutch pedal regularly and gently. And a clutch is $150-$300 bucks, while a rebuilt transmission starts around $3000. Why mess around? You can train for fun, but don't pretend clutches aren't critical. They are. Semi trucks have super close gear spacing to mitigate the issue of only having a synchro on first. Totally different from a six speed passenger car.
Hard to demonstrate with just one hand while filming with the other,,, that said you explained pretty good.
Another thing, can you please explain why you welded a separate aluminum plug where the drain bolt went ??? If the threads were stripped you could have just tapped the hole to the next size up. Or even seen people change inch to metric bolts and vise versa if there was not much meat left for ovesized bolt.......
Wiseco crank exploded, they repaired the whole engine under warranty. That was their call. Doesn’t leak any fluids and looks decent and is good and strong.
My car has a constant mesh transmission. I guess I don't need the clutch for that either.
What car is it?
@@1661st_Moto Every car with a manual transmission has constant mesh between the gears except reverse in some cars. The difference is car transmissions have synchronizers and minimal backlash between the splines that actually do the shifting. In a motorcycle transmission, they greatly increase the backlash between the splines to give the splines time to mesh. They also do this in dogbox transmissions to allow racers to shift without the clutch (think of drag racing)
Regardless, Every manual transmission in a vehicle, the gears are constantly meshed together just like this motorcycle transmission. Just because it is constantly meshed doesn't mean you can shift without a clutch.
@@1661st_Moto And it is a Geo Metro.
@@crissd8283 unless you drive a 1929 dodge or 1915 rover... lol, at one point crash boxes were CRASH boxes... the gears moved in and out of mesh.
actually. my tractors a crash box... can do a 4th to 5th shift, just... you stop rolling almost instantly, so its hard... and the 5th to 6th is easy...
then youre redlining and topped out at a blistering 13km/h... WEEEE! but then, tractors arent intended for "shifting on the move".
another difference between bikes and cars is the shifting mechanism itself. the forks move back and forth, shifting dogs... but theyre actuated differently. you only select one rod, and can only move one rod back and forth at a time. underneath the synchromesh, all gearboxes are fundamentally the same. (lol, dont start me on autos...)
that cam drum on a bike is shifting two or three shafts AT THE SAME TIME. it can disengage a gear, leave a "neutral" before slamming another gear in place, simply by the shape of the cams. its almost instant, whereas the gate of a car box means that there is a fairly large delay between popping out of one gear and then slipping into the next one.
1st to second, third to fourth, both on one rod apiece. but there still has to be enough space for the 2nd to 3rd, and 4th to 5th, which both change selector rod, and for the opposite, the downshifts. that big sloppy gap between all gears has to be there cus the box doesnt know if youre shifting up or down...
the way they accurate and the arrangement of the gears on the two shafts is entirely different. which two gears actually sit side by side...
shifting on a bike with no clutch comes naturally, its intutive.
clutchless shifting on a car... depends on the car, the driver, which way the suns facing, the primary flight feathers of an unrelated duck... some just "do it"... others adamantly REFUSE...
GENIUS
I always do
So as long as you let off the gas its fine
Yes
You can but you want the gear to last long ang amoth shifting. The point of it though is to select gear level what ever you like.
@@DimensionFluke if you have a constant mesh transmission, regardless of rpm your transmission is all constantly spinning at the same speed. Doesn’t damage anything given the bearings are all in good shape allowing 0 side to side play