May I recommend a series named Under the Banner of Heaven. It’s on Hulu. Even though is a crime thriller about the fundamentalist Mormon church, it juxtaposes fundamentalist believes with believes from the early Mormon church. It goes back and forth. It’s brilliant and the acting is top notch.
I’m an ICU nurse and we laugh at dark things too. Lindsay is absolutely right, it’s a trauma response. Some things you either gotta laugh or cry. Death, polygamy, lifelong lies by the church… it’s all pretty traumatic.
I was a trauma nurse in Belfast in the 70s, black humour was definitely a thing. Think it helped us through a lot of horrific things. Also kept a lot of us from developing PTSD. I’m in my seventies now and my humour is still black T.G
I definitely want more of this. Knowing what has really happened is helping me heal very personally. There is too much erasing of history by the church. That definitely has not helped. The truth does set us free.
This episode was so great. Both Bryan and Lindsay's expertise in Mormon history is readily apparent with they way they understand the overarching narratives. Thanks to both of them for sharing their expertise and to John for his insightful questions and comments.
43:05 "It's the leaders making the poor choices, it's all of the rest of the people that are paying the price for it" - She just summed up all of human history in this simple statement.
The problem is that someone does have to lead and this falls, usually (🙂), to human beings. It is easy to become exceedingly jaded in leadership simply because there is the realization that rising through the ranks does not usually mean an increase in competency.
After listening to the segment beginning about 35:30 on the "women who go rogue",I would love to see a film "art piece" on these nine women setting out to Plum Creek, with children, 17 year old son developing leadership, dealing with a new frontier, caught between indigenous warring tribes, husbands finding them and leaving Mormonism with them... What a great framework for a film featuring adventure, courage , grit, "deconstruction" , and feminism (from the pioneer perspective of a harsh reality), and vision/hope.
I love these episodes! I was raised Mormon, and what little knowledge I have of Mormon history, skips from Nauvoo to the present. I love hearing about tyrant Brigham and what happened after Nauvoo.
I'm not Mormon but I absolutely love these historical episodes. I knew there was dark history but this is mind blowing and super super interesting. You guys are doing great work!
From some who is not Mormon that HOARDING seems to be a main theme of this religion, wives, end of day prepping, church tithings ($286 billions in cash) and not much sharing, more religiosity, more for me and not for you, more for our God so we can go to Zion, more punishments for defectors….the list never ends. It is insightful to know how human brains can work, en masse, to support these rationalization of greed, vanity, fear and the thinking of NEVER ENOUGH. Thank you MSP I learn a lot about human nature and social evolution of extreme and high demand cultures and religions always here.
These two have such incredibly important voices. Lindsay’s passion for the topic is captivating. Thank you for this series and for plugging their podcast. I’m going to have to follow it.
You do a great job John! I really appreciate how much your videos have helped me better navigate my relationship with my parents who are still active members.
This episode - wow! I figured "Mormon history" was whitewashed when I was a TBM but apparently it was bleach-washed. We have some juicy, naughty, terrifying, dark and hopefully unrepeatable history.
@@mylesmarkson1686 No, he is a paid pawn in their game, which WAS to put Tim Ballard in the WH. And filthy creeps stick together. He is the Q-Anon messiah, definitely. And the artist that did all those paintings of him riding to save the world is LDS, for sure.
All my immigrant ancestors on my father's side came over from Sweden, Denmark and the British Isles, after conversion to LDS religion, in the mid 1800s. So this is very interesting to me.
This is one of my favorites! I love Mormon history; in particular this time period from Nauvoo to Utah. What I find interesting about John Milton Bernhisel and his encouraging people to be quiet about polygamy is that my 6X Great-grandmother was married off to him in plural marriage. This took place in the Mansion House where Dr.Bernhisel was living and on good terms with both Emma and Brigham Young. One of the the plural wives of John Bernhisel was 15 years old and married the same day as her mother and his favorite wife. I think there were two mother/daughter pairs. He was a bad husband to my GGGrandmother who was granted a temple divorce. You should see his obituary that makes me very angry! My GGGGrandma was Isaac Haights sister who was besties with Heber Kimball
As someone who walked away from the Mormon church because I just couldn’t be the woman that the church demands, I felt that it diminished me as a woman. Through programs like this , it really gives knowledge as to what the foundation of this church is really about. I have family members that are very committed to the church and I do try to be respectful of their decision. I do feel judged and ostracized by some of them however!
This is fascinating. Brigham Young telling all the Mormons they need to bathe regularly made me chuckle. Like "c'mon guys, yeah, we're violent, problematic, and polygamous, but being stinky is where I draw the line".
Shoot, I missed you live. But I will enjoy it anyway. Thank you for opening my eyes to the many lies being propagated by the Mormon Church. You are a badass, John!
I love listening to them, both! This is absolutely fascinating and revealing. Thank you John, you've helped me to find out the truth by hosting amazing people like Lindsay and Bryan!
I have heard more horrifying stories from Mormon Stories and Mormon Discussion podcasts in past 72 hrs in this regard than I ever did my whole LDS life.
Really fascinating history! I remember watching a movie years ago about Brigham Young, and it seems that a lot of his real history was not included. Someone should do a remake of the real Brigham Young. It would have all the elements of sex, lies, romance, tragedy, killings and interesting "family" life. There's so much material that it could be a series.
What an amazing episode and follow up the the first one. I have thoroughly enjoyed listening to these and am super impressed by the knowledge and memory of these hosts. I agree that lots of problems in the church today stem from not being honest about its history and just hiding or outright removal of it. Just goes to show that even from the beginning the PR comes first and foremost to retain power and authority over others. The image of the church is the most important thing to protect and really what every endowment holder covenants to sacrifice everything for. 😢
Regarding the story around the 2:18:00 mark - I remember hearing about burying the Salt Lake temple and moving down south when I was in primary. I grew up in the Salt Lake suburbs. I'm also pretty sure it's featured in Church History In The Fullness Of Times; not sure if the church still uses that or not.
I’m ready for the next part 😊 nevermo here and this just great as a standpoint of similarity to English/literature discussions and their impact on society
John Taylor is the one that converted my paternal grandfather and told him he had to live polygamy. He immigrated to the US and located here in the Salt Lake Valley to live polygamy. This was after the manifesto.
I want to be outraged because, as a non-mormon, I have lived in small majority mormon towns where entitlement and elitism was oppressive. But, I now see how mislead by the church these people are. 😮 My heart goes out to those who feel trapped by the indocrination.
3:16:19 - the brethren know that the old doctrines do harm, but the closest they will go to casting them off is to say "the living prophets are more important than the dead ones"... they are cowards ... but they DO know.
Great episode. I just finished reading 'Wife Number 19' and it was eye opening. She talked a lot about some women going crazy and having to be institutionalized. Has there ever been a study done regarding STD's among polygamous families? I wonder if syphilis might have been a factor in these cases of women going insane. Not that polygamy wouldn't have the same effect. Terrible.
I have been doing some deep diving on my ancestor's who were early members and those who emigrated from England and one of my ancestor's has a story about how he "believed in polygamy and knew it was from God" although his first wife's story says that it was the toughest trial of her life. I can't even imagine how that must have been for her.. she came with her husband and young children whom she left behind when they got ill after arriving in the United States only to have your husband leave you to go preach the gospel and bring home a new wife.
When you guys talk about the loneliness and the stark reality of polygamy near the end, it reminds me of that old classic Chinese movie, Raise the Red Lantern.
I have to say I was never comfortable with Brigham Young, even as a fervently believing missionary. And as a student at BYU I am proud of my education in the hard sciences and had some really great associations with some very inspiring professors, but then there was this total whitewashing of Mormon history, and consequently theology that was always battling against what I was learning. I have to say it was pretty interesting taking a Mormon History class from the religion department and then taking one from the history department. I’m proud of my biology and history degrees, and I am so grateful for the truly fine professors in my areas of study, but today I am (embarrassed my not be the correct word), but something like that when I write BYU on my CV. I truly believe it has cost me some credibility and perhaps even jobs. My educational endeavors will always be tarnished by my university baring the name of Brigham Young. Like Lindsay says, yes he was a great colonizer, but as a person, and in his teachings of “doctrine” he shows his real character, which now to a degree is a stain on my name.
Maybe I didn't catch or it wasn't mentioned, but I'm curious about the time period of the wineries. I think it was in the 1910s SLC did a sting to make Sanpete a dry county, maybe it happened in other counties IDK
Thank you so much esp for your research re: John D Lee's wives. The "Mother" wife is my husband's 4G, her three-sister-wife daughters, his grand aunts. Your enthusiasm for learning this information and helping all of us, is so appreciated.
Thank you for the details about Ann Eliza Young!! I recently learned who she was via genealogical research. I'm a never mo descended from the Webb and Reed pioneer families. This is absolutely fascinating.
If they rename BYU and get away from using messy leaders for the name of the school. Suggestion... Take it back to values and a humbler time of the people as just being a people. Make it more a people/ heritage relevant institution... Perhaps maybe even, 'Pioneer Institute'. Be a better starting point looking to new frontier, than to be continually stuck in this rut.
I went to Xela-Guatemala (02-04) on my mission John. I know you were in Guatemala too, what mission were you in? Great videos by the way. I binge watch them all the time! 🤙🏼
1:23:53 it’s easy to be granted statehood if the state’s demographics are similar to those of the current states and the population doesn’t practice a social custom that the majority of others find abhorrent. Utah wasn’t the only Western territory denied statehood for the such reasons. New Mexico petitioned multiple times for statehood but was denied until 1912 because the population predominantly spoke Spanish and wasn’t “White” enough.
Hello John and other quests today, while listening to the program today. I wish I would have heard all of this before joining the church. Which was 20 plus years ago, inactive for 7 years now. But if I would have heard all of this crap before joining the church. I would have said oh hell no I'm not going to join a church that's so screwed up in its morals past or present. Boy was the wool pulled over my eyes. Before I joined the church I questioned many things, when asking questions I was told it'll all be sorted out into the eternities, put your questions to rest and don't worry about it. It's a wonder we have any members who joined the early church at all going forward at this point. No wonder the Mormon church is crumbling in its membership. As more people find out the reality of it all. I believe more people will fall away. I'm going to continue listening to the program.
If the church, or any institution, acknowledges their darker corner stones, it's inevitable that change will come. The shame alone will bring down statues and change the names of forts.
John Lee, in his book, describes driving wagons during the Mexican war. He always seem to finish any activity more prosperous than previously, well, until Mountain Meadow.
Having only listened to the first few mins an initial question comes to mind that I’ve had several times but haven’t ever really addressed - why would any church pass from father to son like a kingship? Where was this ever taught by Jesus Christ? In what way are any of these concepts a ‘second witness’ of Jesus Christ?
A couple of corrections and a caution: The individual sacramental cups (from what I’ve researched and others have said) were changed in 1918 during the Spanish flu pandemic to lessen the spread of disease. It had nothing to do with people becoming alcoholics from whatever amount of wine was in a shared cup (if anyone was an alcoholic, they likely had plenty at home to satisfy their needs). Additionally, Gardo House did NOT burn down. It was demolished in November, 1921, as it had many structural issues that the owners at the time did not want to address as they were deemed too costly. It’s a real shame as the home was beautiful. It’s important for these podcasters to get every detail correct as it makes them look incompetent when they are wrong about things that are so easily verifiable. Please do better.
Thanks for the comments. Keep 'em coming because you're right- accuracy matters. As to these two critiques, perhaps Bryan and I need to do an episode on all our sources. On our Sunstone Mormon History podcast we do have shownotes to show where we pull our stuff. In this case, here's a couple notes. The Saints book famously touts the 1918 sacrament cups. It is true there became a more standardized tray after the flu epidemic. However, as early as the 1860's Brigham Young was already thinking about changing the goblet- and did. "I have no doubt, were we to offer the wine in Sacrament that some would swallow a pint if the tumbler would [hold] that much before they could bite it off. However, I will remedy that. I will have tumblers made that will hold a swallow and no more." Cleland and Brooks, A Mormon Chronicle: The Diaries of John D. Lee, II, p. 116. To see how it developed, Lancaster talks about this starting on page 128: scholarsarchive.byu.edu/etd/4862/ So it's messy. Different congregations moved from goblets and experimented with different styles. And they were at the mercy of what resources and talent were available in their local areas, since it wasn't correlated. If you go to the DUP in places like St. George, Vernal, etc. you'll see different types of trays they were trying out to remedy these problems. There's a lot of variety, especially in the 1870-1890s. As to the Gardo house, you're right. It's reductive to say it "burned down," and that's the risk of an unscripted interview. It did have a fire and an explosion that ruined the structural integrity and it became too expensive to maintain and was torn down. So again, it's messier than all of that. I appreciate people willing to call out things that bring questions to mind. On interviews like this, it's hard to remember all the things and mistakes can happen (I think I called Arsenal Hill, "ammunition hill" doh! So I'm not immune!) But there's also new stuff discovered every day that shifts what we think we know about old narratives. The beauty of history is it is a science and an art- always shifting with new sources. Bryan and I spend a lot of time in the archives so to be fair, some of this stuff is unpublished. I know J. Stapley is working on a new development of WoW and I'm sure he'll uncover some other great stuff too. I'm looking forward to that. Keep the questions coming!
At its heart, Mormonism plummets believers right back to the original deception of the devil in the garden: you can be like God (Gn 3:1-14). But not just “like” God - you can actually become a god.
I love the story of Elizabeth Rollins Lightner who stayed with her legal husband and left the Mormons and ended up in Stillwater MN running a bording house. She talks about a “visitor” who came to them and told them to gather to Zion because her sons will end up as solders in the coming civil war if they stay in Minnesota
I would like to see Polly Aird on the show, her books are very well researched. My 4x great grandmother's brother and nephew were the 2 Parrish's who were killed in the Potter/Parrish murders. 1:43:16
Interesting discussion. Mormonism in Utah is an area of church history I am less familiar with that Kirtland and Nauvoo. Brian and Lyndsey showed very good knowledge of the facts and history and were quite dispassionate in relaying the history.
The brothels in salt lake were a thing I grew up knowing about They also as I was taught, were walled off, and they would set things like ward boundaries such that you’d never walk past the brothels
1:24:00 Nevada was made a state in 1864 despite not meeting the minimum population requirements. The reason being was the Abraham Lincoln and the Republicans believed that they were going to lose the election or 1864 and the needed the electoral votes. At this time, the civil war outcome is still in doubt it looking ominous and a lot of northern Democrats are pushing for peace with the confederacy. As a result, morale is low and this is seen as favoring the Democrats.
Is the Plum Creek, where the 9 ladies went with their families the same Plum Creek that is in, On the Banks of Plum Creek Novel by Laura Ingalls Wilder?
Everyone should watch and share "Woe Unto You, Scribes: The Hidden History of Polygamy" it is the most comprehensive and well put together thing on the topic of polygamy I have seen and blows the "official narrative" out of the water.
“The end justifies the means” mentality can set one into a very dangerous path speaking from experience and that’s how we get things like ISIS and the Taliban. Although I’m one of your non Mormon listeners I’ve been reading the Bible as a former Christian and I’m starting to think that if Joseph Smith was a literalist and sort of a fundamentalist in the modern sense he was a bit more consistent about it compared to other leaders, and it Brighman Young was a sort of modern Moses then it’s fitting considering what the original one did through the Torah stories. People are nowadays concerned that the US is becoming a sort of theocracy like Iran but if you count Utah then I guess we’ve had mini theocracies for a long time despite the supposed Separation of Church and State (if you also count the many “cult towns” that have sprung across denominations in more recent times, there’s Clearwater in the case of Scientology for example).
2:43:23 We see the same pattern in modern fundamentalist Mormon groups where the only way for a woman to get any education outside the community is medical professional so the community can have healthcare. It’s not feminism. It’s serving patriarchal interests
Apparently Lindsay and I are related, because I'm a Leavitt too! I guess that's not hard, since they were a prolific family, but it's still fun to find new relatives. .
"Call it for what it is... We're all people. Call it for what it is." I agree with this 100%. If you know something is wrong, do something about it. Call it out. Take care of the problem. Not every LDS person believes in hypocritical nonsense. If you supposedly agree to a standard, live by it. If you say you're a good person, be a good person no matter what faith you belong to.
![Felix "Unfair" | [Stray Kids : SKZ-PLAYER]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/Oswujxm2Ag0/mqdefault.jpg)
Netflix needs to make this a mini-series! It’s fascinating.
Well, only if it isn’t slanted to be a recruitment tool. And all those billions? Will be used to fight it tooth and nail.
@cleighwb Indeed, though the Mormon church will use their $$$ power to stifle that project for sure.
They should have an episode on each president
May I recommend a series named Under the Banner of Heaven. It’s on Hulu. Even though is a crime thriller about the fundamentalist Mormon church, it juxtaposes fundamentalist believes with believes from the early Mormon church. It goes back and forth. It’s brilliant and the acting is top notch.
I will watch it.
I’m an ICU nurse and we laugh at dark things too. Lindsay is absolutely right, it’s a trauma response. Some things you either gotta laugh or cry. Death, polygamy, lifelong lies by the church… it’s all pretty traumatic.
Ditto….was critical care nurse for 40 years
I was a trauma nurse in Belfast in the 70s, black humour was definitely a thing. Think it helped us through a lot of horrific things. Also kept a lot of us from developing PTSD. I’m in my seventies now and my humour is still black T.G
I definitely want more of this. Knowing what has really happened is helping me heal very personally. There is too much erasing of history by the church. That definitely has not helped. The truth does set us free.
I wish you all well in you healing.
I love how excited Bryan and Lindsay get about Mormon History! It’s sooo fun to listen to them!
This episode was so great. Both Bryan and Lindsay's expertise in Mormon history is readily apparent with they way they understand the overarching narratives.
Thanks to both of them for sharing their expertise and to John for his insightful questions and comments.
43:05 "It's the leaders making the poor choices, it's all of the rest of the people that are paying the price for it" - She just summed up all of human history in this simple statement.
Yes! We need to figure out why we follow actual psychopaths and narcissists, instead of sane intelligent people. And change it.
💯
Humanity constantly suffering for Greed. Sick.
The problem is that someone does have to lead and this falls, usually (🙂), to human beings. It is easy to become exceedingly jaded in leadership simply because there is the realization that rising through the ranks does not usually mean an increase in competency.
Lindsay and Bryan are AMAZING historians! These are my favorite MS episodes.
Yuh, MSP is better than MSNBC.
After listening to the segment beginning about 35:30 on the "women who go rogue",I would love to see a film "art piece" on these nine women setting out to Plum Creek, with children, 17 year old son developing leadership, dealing with a new frontier, caught between indigenous warring tribes, husbands finding them and leaving Mormonism with them... What a great framework for a film featuring adventure, courage , grit, "deconstruction" , and feminism (from the pioneer perspective of a harsh reality), and vision/hope.
Yes that would make a great book or miniseries!
I love these episodes! I was raised Mormon, and what little knowledge I have of Mormon history, skips from Nauvoo to the present. I love hearing about tyrant Brigham and what happened after Nauvoo.
This is not a good source.
@@tombaker6083Then, in your opinion, what is a good source?
@@function0077I can take a wild guess😂
This source is very opinionated but so is the LDS church
@@kelellisaguessed wrong 😅
I'm not Mormon but I absolutely love these historical episodes. I knew there was dark history but this is mind blowing and super super interesting. You guys are doing great work!
From some who is not Mormon that HOARDING seems to be a main theme of this religion, wives, end of day prepping, church tithings ($286 billions in cash) and not much sharing, more religiosity, more for me and not for you, more for our God so we can go to Zion, more punishments for defectors….the list never ends. It is insightful to know how human brains can work, en masse, to support these rationalization of greed, vanity, fear and the thinking of NEVER ENOUGH. Thank you MSP I learn a lot about human nature and social evolution of extreme and high demand cultures and religions always here.
@edam. X 93 million 🌹
These two have such incredibly important voices. Lindsay’s passion for the topic is captivating. Thank you for this series and for plugging their podcast. I’m going to have to follow it.
Just wanted to chime in and say that this is the most fascinating discussion on Mormon history that I've ever heard. Very well done, guys!
Wow, I had no idea what a cruel and horrible man Brigham Young was. I knew he wasn’t good but not to this degree.
I am nevermo. I knew very little about him
Wong wong wong.
Same, horrific individual. Awful person.
900am@@merricat3025
So looking forward to this episode. Lindsey and John always have such excellent, informative conversations
Uh uh uh, don't forget Bryan.
You do a great job John! I really appreciate how much your videos have helped me better navigate my relationship with my parents who are still active members.
Oh, great. Another all-nighter for me. Fascinating, funny, tragic, this episode is everything...again.
Probably one of my favorite episodes ever on Mormon Stories! Thank you! 💝🙏💝💃💃💃
I love these deep dives into the history of Mormonism.
This episode - wow! I figured "Mormon history" was whitewashed when I was a TBM but apparently it was bleach-washed. We have some juicy, naughty, terrifying, dark and hopefully unrepeatable history.
It’s repeating right now, though. Visions of Glory is stoking violent fires.
What does “TBM” mean?
@@Lindsey0007 true believing Mormon
I really enjoy these historical episodes. Very interesting.
Fascinating discussion! I'm not Mormon so I really appreciate hearing this history.
History, good or bad, is essential. It encourages the open minded to do better. Those who ignore it simply repeat it.
In fact, we're repeating Joey Baloney with Doofus Trump right now. He's like their new Messiah!
@@mylesmarkson1686 No, he is a paid pawn in their game, which WAS to put Tim Ballard in the WH. And filthy creeps stick together.
He is the Q-Anon messiah, definitely. And the artist that did all those paintings of him riding to save the world is LDS, for sure.
@@mylesmarkson1686
And the angel shall sound the trump.
@Liza. 🌺🌺🌺. History:
If we are to live truly today, WE MUST
have understanding of
the whole of yesterday.
All my immigrant ancestors on my father's side came over from Sweden, Denmark and the British Isles, after conversion to LDS religion, in the mid 1800s. So this is very interesting to me.
So did mine! Would love to hear about your ancestors!
Me too. Sweden on Dad's side, and Cherokee Nation on Mom's side.
This is one of my favorites! I love Mormon history; in particular this time period from Nauvoo to Utah. What I find interesting about John Milton Bernhisel and his encouraging people to be quiet about polygamy is that my 6X Great-grandmother was married off to him in plural marriage. This took place in the Mansion House where Dr.Bernhisel was living and on good terms with both Emma and Brigham Young. One of the the plural wives of John Bernhisel was 15 years old and married the same day as her mother and his favorite wife. I think there were two mother/daughter pairs. He was a bad husband to my GGGrandmother who was granted a temple divorce. You should see his obituary that makes me very angry! My GGGGrandma was Isaac Haights sister who was besties with Heber Kimball
As someone who walked away from the Mormon church because I just couldn’t be the woman that the church demands, I felt that it diminished me as a woman. Through programs like this , it really gives knowledge as to what the foundation of this church is really about. I have family members that are very committed to the church and I do try to be respectful of their decision. I do feel judged and ostracized by some of them however!
I’m in this boat
I have wanted this episode for so long. Thoroughly enjoyed it!
This is fascinating.
Brigham Young telling all the Mormons they need to bathe regularly made me chuckle. Like "c'mon guys, yeah, we're violent, problematic, and polygamous, but being stinky is where I draw the line".
I need a book list!!!! Amazing stuff
Shoot, I missed you live. But I will enjoy it anyway. Thank you for opening my eyes to the many lies being propagated by the Mormon Church. You are a badass, John!
I love listening to them, both! This is absolutely fascinating and revealing. Thank you John, you've helped me to find out the truth by hosting amazing people like Lindsay and Bryan!
Is anything I learned about in Mormonism true?! Heber J. Grant was an alchoholic?! WTF?!
Probably there is little truth. Sadly.
Thank you so much for your bibliography. I kept on noting down titles and have so many book requests for my library.
Sooo interesting, I really like to learn about the ways Mormon history intersects with American history in general, thank for doing this y’all!
Much too entwined at this point. It’s scary.
Uncovering a right good Mormon orgy.
@mieli. WE HAD BETTER LEARN AND CONSIDER and
REMEMBER and
RECOGNIZE
This
PERILOUS and
IMMINENT
Intersection!
John Taylor says: “No polygamy exists.”
John Taylor thinks: “No, polygamy exists.”
Not his fault people couldn’t hear the comma. /s
People mistake a coma for a comma.
30:20 this is painful given the Arizona case yesterday/today…
Lindsey and Bryan are a delight to hear. So much information in their episodes! Great episode 👏🏻
Loving this endless stream of Mormon history bits.
@Lindsay Hansen
the last episode was wonderful. That episode had me click on this one. It was rich of depth of what happened. Thank you ❤
You know, maybe in another year I’ll have finally caught up on all the shocking, gross stories in Mormonism.
There’s as many stories are there are people that have been touched by the church. It’s a rabbit hole that never ends.
I have heard more horrifying stories from Mormon Stories and Mormon Discussion podcasts in past 72 hrs in this regard than I ever did my whole LDS life.
There are many! There were other doomsday break off cults, small and large, that committed horrendous crimes going back through the whole thing.
Mormon Stories should have Connell O’Donavan on for interview about LGBT 🏳️🌈 history in Utah. He’s an expert.
I would love to hear more about those 9 women who left Mormonism and settled on their own - where is documentation on that and how can we find it?😅
Really fascinating history! I remember watching a movie years ago about Brigham Young, and it seems that a lot of his real history was not included. Someone should do a remake of the real Brigham Young. It would have all the elements of sex, lies, romance, tragedy, killings and interesting "family" life. There's so much material that it could be a series.
What an amazing episode and follow up the the first one. I have thoroughly enjoyed listening to these and am super impressed by the knowledge and memory of these hosts. I agree that lots of problems in the church today stem from not being honest about its history and just hiding or outright removal of it. Just goes to show that even from the beginning the PR comes first and foremost to retain power and authority over others. The image of the church is the most important thing to protect and really what every endowment holder covenants to sacrifice everything for. 😢
Endowed how? Do they have any more when they come out, than they had when they went in?
My first twinge of polygamy pain was the book “The Giant Joshua” by Maureen Whipple. I had to put it high on my “shelf” until my shelf broke.
Regarding the story around the 2:18:00 mark - I remember hearing about burying the Salt Lake temple and moving down south when I was in primary. I grew up in the Salt Lake suburbs. I'm also pretty sure it's featured in Church History In The Fullness Of Times; not sure if the church still uses that or not.
Love these discussions, so fascinating! Thank you!
This has been one of my favorite episodes. These guests are amazing!
Looking forward to Part 3! Sounds VERY interesting! It’s all been pretty good thus far!
This was so good. Thank you for all this info
I’m ready for the next part 😊 nevermo here and this just great as a standpoint of similarity to English/literature discussions and their impact on society
John Taylor is the one that converted my paternal grandfather and told him he had to live polygamy. He immigrated to the US and located here in the Salt Lake Valley to live polygamy. This was after the manifesto.
I want to be outraged because, as a non-mormon, I have lived in small majority mormon towns where entitlement and elitism was oppressive. But, I now see how mislead by the church these people are. 😮 My heart goes out to those who feel trapped by the indocrination.
It turns out I'm a Leavitt too. It's fascinating to me to learn about everything you're exploring. Thank you for all of your work!
This is one of my favorite episodes. You guys did so great! ❤
This was so good!! So many books to read and podcasts to listen to.
3:16:19 - the brethren know that the old doctrines do harm, but the closest they will go to casting them off is to say "the living prophets are more important than the dead ones"... they are cowards ... but they DO know.
Great episode. I just finished reading 'Wife Number 19' and it was eye opening. She talked a lot about some women going crazy and having to be institutionalized. Has there ever been a study done regarding STD's among polygamous families? I wonder if syphilis might have been a factor in these cases of women going insane. Not that polygamy wouldn't have the same effect. Terrible.
Yes! That would be fascinating to learn about. I’m sure STDs were rampant.
That's cuz the doo it wrong.
I have been doing some deep diving on my ancestor's who were early members and those who emigrated from England and one of my ancestor's has a story about how he "believed in polygamy and knew it was from God" although his first wife's story says that it was the toughest trial of her life. I can't even imagine how that must have been for her.. she came with her husband and young children whom she left behind when they got ill after arriving in the United States only to have your husband leave you to go preach the gospel and bring home a new wife.
Scoot over honey. Both of you share that other pillow. United Order in bed.
This is mind blowing but not surprising at all…. Human nature and the Mormon are not immune to crazy dysfunction
When you guys talk about the loneliness and the stark reality of polygamy near the end, it reminds me of that old classic Chinese movie, Raise the Red Lantern.
I have to say I was never comfortable with Brigham Young, even as a fervently believing missionary. And as a student at BYU I am proud of my education in the hard sciences and had some really great associations with some very inspiring professors, but then there was this total whitewashing of Mormon history, and consequently theology that was always battling against what I was learning. I have to say it was pretty interesting taking a Mormon History class from the religion department and then taking one from the history department. I’m proud of my biology and history degrees, and I am so grateful for the truly fine professors in my areas of study, but today I am (embarrassed my not be the correct word), but something like that when I write BYU on my CV. I truly believe it has cost me some credibility and perhaps even jobs. My educational endeavors will always be tarnished by my university baring the name of Brigham Young. Like Lindsay says, yes he was a great colonizer, but as a person, and in his teachings of “doctrine” he shows his real character, which now to a degree is a stain on my name.
Maybe I didn't catch or it wasn't mentioned, but I'm curious about the time period of the wineries. I think it was in the 1910s SLC did a sting to make Sanpete a dry county, maybe it happened in other counties IDK
Thank you so much esp for your research re: John D Lee's wives. The "Mother" wife is my husband's 4G, her three-sister-wife daughters, his grand aunts. Your enthusiasm for learning this information and helping all of us, is so appreciated.
Thank you for the details about Ann Eliza Young!! I recently learned who she was via genealogical research. I'm a never mo descended from the Webb and Reed pioneer families. This is absolutely fascinating.
Lindsey and YOP is so great!! Thanks for this series. I’m a nevermo who is obsessed with cults. I meant high demand religions, oopsie.
If they rename BYU and get away from using messy leaders for the name of the school.
Suggestion...
Take it back to values and a humbler time of the people as just being a people.
Make it more a people/ heritage relevant institution...
Perhaps maybe even, 'Pioneer Institute'.
Be a better starting point looking to new frontier, than to be continually stuck in this rut.
So you're saying the LDS leaders could be converted to MSP?
I went to Xela-Guatemala (02-04) on my mission John. I know you were in Guatemala too, what mission were you in? Great videos by the way. I binge watch them all the time! 🤙🏼
North 88-90
My son is on a mission there now!
I’m just coming across this episode. Love it ❤
Such a great conversation.
1:23:53 it’s easy to be granted statehood if the state’s demographics are similar to those of the current states and the population doesn’t practice a social custom that the majority of others find abhorrent. Utah wasn’t the only Western territory denied statehood for the such reasons. New Mexico petitioned multiple times for statehood but was denied until 1912 because the population predominantly spoke Spanish and wasn’t “White” enough.
Great show!
Brigham Young was the Dewey Long of Utah. BY predates Long. Wow, religion holds people more than politics.
How many people would follow Trump if he claimed to have a revelation?
Hello John and other quests today, while listening to the program today. I wish I would have heard all of this before joining the church. Which was 20 plus years ago, inactive for 7 years now. But if I would have heard all of this crap before joining the church. I would have said oh hell no I'm not going to join a church that's so screwed up in its morals past or present. Boy was the wool pulled over my eyes. Before I joined the church I questioned many things, when asking questions I was told it'll all be sorted out into the eternities, put your questions to rest and don't worry about it. It's a wonder we have any members who joined the early church at all going forward at this point. No wonder the Mormon church is crumbling in its membership. As more people find out the reality of it all. I believe more people will fall away. I'm going to continue listening to the program.
Thank you for your preparation and being so articulate in your message presentation. 👍
If the church, or any institution, acknowledges their darker corner stones, it's inevitable that change will come. The shame alone will bring down statues and change the names of forts.
...and the direction of farts.
John Lee, in his book, describes driving wagons during the Mexican war. He always seem to finish any activity more prosperous than previously, well, until Mountain Meadow.
Having only listened to the first few mins an initial question comes to mind that I’ve had several times but haven’t ever really addressed - why would any church pass from father to son like a kingship? Where was this ever taught by Jesus Christ? In what way are any of these concepts a ‘second witness’ of Jesus Christ?
And I am still listening! I didn’t mean to suggest I was only going to listen to the beginning just that I’m commenting before I’ve gone too far in-
A couple of corrections and a caution:
The individual sacramental cups (from what I’ve researched and others have said) were changed in 1918 during the Spanish flu pandemic to lessen the spread of disease. It had nothing to do with people becoming alcoholics from whatever amount of wine was in a shared cup (if anyone was an alcoholic, they likely had plenty at home to satisfy their needs).
Additionally, Gardo House did NOT burn down. It was demolished in November, 1921, as it had many structural issues that the owners at the time did not want to address as they were deemed too costly. It’s a real shame as the home was beautiful.
It’s important for these podcasters to get every detail correct as it makes them look incompetent when they are wrong about things that are so easily verifiable. Please do better.
Thanks for the comments. Keep 'em coming because you're right- accuracy matters. As to these two critiques, perhaps Bryan and I need to do an episode on all our sources. On our Sunstone Mormon History podcast we do have shownotes to show where we pull our stuff. In this case, here's a couple notes. The Saints book famously touts the 1918 sacrament cups. It is true there became a more standardized tray after the flu epidemic. However, as early as the 1860's Brigham Young was already thinking about changing the goblet- and did.
"I have no doubt, were we to offer the wine in Sacrament
that some would swallow a pint if the tumbler would [hold]
that much before they could bite it off. However, I will
remedy that. I will have tumblers made that will hold a
swallow and no more."
Cleland and Brooks, A Mormon Chronicle: The Diaries of John D. Lee, II, p. 116.
To see how it developed, Lancaster talks about this starting on page 128:
scholarsarchive.byu.edu/etd/4862/
So it's messy. Different congregations moved from goblets and experimented with different styles. And they were at the mercy of what resources and talent were available in their local areas, since it wasn't correlated. If you go to the DUP in places like St. George, Vernal, etc. you'll see different types of trays they were trying out to remedy these problems. There's a lot of variety, especially in the 1870-1890s.
As to the Gardo house, you're right. It's reductive to say it "burned down," and that's the risk of an unscripted interview. It did have a fire and an explosion that ruined the structural integrity and it became too expensive to maintain and was torn down. So again, it's messier than all of that.
I appreciate people willing to call out things that bring questions to mind. On interviews like this, it's hard to remember all the things and mistakes can happen (I think I called Arsenal Hill, "ammunition hill" doh! So I'm not immune!) But there's also new stuff discovered every day that shifts what we think we know about old narratives. The beauty of history is it is a science and an art- always shifting with new sources. Bryan and I spend a lot of time in the archives so to be fair, some of this stuff is unpublished. I know J. Stapley is working on a new development of WoW and I'm sure he'll uncover some other great stuff too. I'm looking forward to that.
Keep the questions coming!
At its heart, Mormonism plummets believers right back to the original deception of the devil in the garden: you can be like God (Gn 3:1-14). But not just “like” God - you can actually become a god.
Was the next part ever released?
No.
John Dehlin is the goat
I love the story of Elizabeth Rollins Lightner who stayed with her legal husband and left the Mormons and ended up in Stillwater MN running a bording house. She talks about a “visitor” who came to them and told them to gather to Zion because her sons will end up as solders in the coming civil war if they stay in Minnesota
I would like to see Polly Aird on the show, her books are very well researched. My 4x great grandmother's brother and nephew were the 2 Parrish's who were killed in the Potter/Parrish murders. 1:43:16
Thoroughly enjoyed this episode.
Interesting discussion. Mormonism in Utah is an area of church history I am less familiar with that Kirtland and Nauvoo. Brian and Lyndsey showed very good knowledge of the facts and history and were quite dispassionate in relaying the history.
The brothels in salt lake were a thing I grew up knowing about
They also as I was taught, were walled off, and they would set things like ward boundaries such that you’d never walk past the brothels
1:24:00 Nevada was made a state in 1864 despite not meeting the minimum population requirements. The reason being was the Abraham Lincoln and the Republicans believed that they were going to lose the election or 1864 and the needed the electoral votes. At this time, the civil war outcome is still in doubt it looking ominous and a lot of northern Democrats are pushing for peace with the confederacy. As a result, morale is low and this is seen as favoring the Democrats.
Where is she getting her information from?
People's personal documents, letters, public records, journals, that kind of thing
Is the Plum Creek, where the 9 ladies went with their families the same Plum Creek that is in, On the Banks of Plum Creek Novel by Laura Ingalls Wilder?
No- they were in the Midwest. Pretty sure Plum creek is either in WI or MN
Lindsay and Bryan… 🙇♀️ you two are amazing.
This is absolutely fascinating
Everyone should watch and share "Woe Unto You, Scribes: The Hidden History of Polygamy" it is the most comprehensive and well put together thing on the topic of polygamy I have seen and blows the "official narrative" out of the water.
“The end justifies the means” mentality can set one into a very dangerous path speaking from experience and that’s how we get things like ISIS and the Taliban.
Although I’m one of your non Mormon listeners I’ve been reading the Bible as a former Christian and I’m starting to think that if Joseph Smith was a literalist and sort of a fundamentalist in the modern sense he was a bit more consistent about it compared to other leaders, and it Brighman Young was a sort of modern Moses then it’s fitting considering what the original one did through the Torah stories.
People are nowadays concerned that the US is becoming a sort of theocracy like Iran but if you count Utah then I guess we’ve had mini theocracies for a long time despite the supposed Separation of Church and State (if you also count the many “cult towns” that have sprung across denominations in more recent times, there’s Clearwater in the case of Scientology for example).
Where is the 1st episode you refer to?
ruclips.net/video/uPukJiqc4wE/видео.htmlsi=VwnkVcld27nrMcLp
2:43:23
We see the same pattern in modern fundamentalist Mormon groups where the only way for a woman to get any education outside the community is medical professional so the community can have healthcare. It’s not feminism. It’s serving patriarchal interests
Apparently Lindsay and I are related, because I'm a Leavitt too! I guess that's not hard, since they were a prolific family, but it's still fun to find new relatives. .
Hello cousin!
@@lindsaypark5752 Hello! Do you mind saying which branch you come from? I come from Dudley and his 4th wife, Jeanette.
I have to get her book, I've read the 19th wife by David ebershoff which is about her story
Any information on Pulsiphers?
"Call it for what it is... We're all people. Call it for what it is." I agree with this 100%. If you know something is wrong, do something about it. Call it out. Take care of the problem. Not every LDS person believes in hypocritical nonsense. If you supposedly agree to a standard, live by it. If you say you're a good person, be a good person no matter what faith you belong to.
Is pirate Woolley related to the David Woolley who married Christine Allred brown?
How can the Mormon church be true when there is so much destruction and hate and harm to other people??