As an exmuslim, I really appreciate this podcast. It's VERY DIFFICULT to find exmuslims talking about their experience in fear of death. This podcast talks about experiences that I, as an ex shia muslim, have experienced. It's very validating, and I appreciate that!
Amazing how it’s the same with all of the religions, huh? God doesn’t torment us by what we don’t do. :) He frees us, by what He’s already done. That’s what a relationship with Him brings. Blessings-
This will go down in history as one of the best episodes. Both Nan and Rod were both so open, insightful, and thoughtful. I really appreciate you having them share their story.
As the only ex-mormon in my entire very large extended family, parents like these are a breath of fresh air. Mine are incapable of seeing their own mistakes and have never sincerely apologized for anything. I cut off all contact almost three years ago but the sting of their abusive parenting (which weaponized the church in every possible way) is still present most days. I know my parents will never seek a "do over" and I'll never hear a kind word from them. But it's nice to know that there are a few good parents out there.
I feel you. My parents are also completely unconscious to the abuse they have perpetrated and I’ve accepted and deeply grieved that they never will awaken to the damage that has resulted from their actions. I don’t begrudge them, I’m not angry. Just sad. And it’s enlightening to see that there ARE parents out there who are waking up to reality also and doing what they can to make things right.
@@deebee2603 I appreciate this. You're exactly right that they register dissent from and criticism against the church as a deeply wounding attack on themselves. It's taken time in therapy but I finally see their desperately-concealed fragility and the fear that has driven every decision they've ever made. I respectfully disagree (just a little bit) though, their defensiveness has a little bit to do with who I am. They know that I am not an unintelligent, impulsive, fragile, or angry person. I do not fit any of the descriptions of people who leave the church that they've always taken at face value. If I say I learned of historical accounts that cast doubt on the church's truth claims, on some level they have to consider that I might not be making it all up. It'd be a lot easier on them if I obviously left the church over some petty offense or because I wanted to break the WoW, but there's no evidence of either.
@@Sarahwithanh444 Thanks for this. I feel the same way. No resentment or anger anymore, just grief. I wish you all the best as you work toward healing.
Wow it really baffles me to hear how Mormon parents force a lot of their beliefs on their children. I'm a 7 year mormon convert who left the church 5 months ago and hearing all of these stories just reminds me I am not alone in my faith journey, I'm really sorry that all of you had to go through all this. Just remember you are all strong and the fact that you guys are talking about it and are supporting one another is an amazing step on rebuilding yourselves through the abuse you have all faced. I hope one day I can come on and share my Mormon story and I can better help those that are in this type of predicament.
Nan and Rob your story was compelling and honest. I am a never Mormon but your story has many life lessons. Your children must be proud of your journey to this point. Thank you for putting yourself out there in the most heartfelt way. Hope to hear a “part three’ down the road. Much success.
Rod just discredited the first 3 prophets in minutes. This is powerful, John!I I could show his monologue to believing family members that I wouldn't bother bringing literally anything else to.
“The quality of your life is largely dependent on the number of difficult conversations you are willing to have.” Thank you so much Nan and Rod for sharing your story. You have helped articulate so many of my feelings and experiences with the church and leaving .
In scripture, Jesus emphaticly stated that the Gospel was completed by his death & resurrection & additions or changes to it were forbidden. This "another gospel of Jesus Christ" is both cartoonish fiction & it is forbidden.
This interview series with Nan & Rod is the most articulate, thorough share. It covers a huge expanse of ground. These people have expressed SO many of the points of heartbreak, fear, nuance, personal & relationship struggles, religious pitfalls, family implosion, and the emotional rollercoaster (and landmines) that going through a faith crisis in a believing family entails-- both as the child and as the parents. On top of that, they cover their individual deconstruction process and how disappointing and scary it is, which many other interviews here have done, too. But all of this in 1 swoop from their background and their age group? Wow. I wish I could share this with my parents. Thank you Nan, Rod, all the kids, John, and Margi.
Rod is a champion. I'm telling you. Anxiety is unseen and debilitating. none of us are perfect, by any means, and then adding anxiety into the mix makes life so much harder. So good for him for taking the necessary steps to mend himself.
“The quality of your life is largely dependent on the number of difficult conversations you are willing to have”. Wow - this is so powerful. What an incredible interview, thank you both.
I’m not a Mormon, and my only real exposure is from my college roommate and very close friend who was definitely a believer but not at all orthodox. This is all to say there is no real reason for me to be so fascinated by Mormon Stories except that these long-form interviews deepest and most insightful explorations of faith, what it means to be a believer, and what it means to question and possibly lose those beliefs that I have ever seen. I keep checking with myself because i don’t want to believe a non-believer who watches people, some of whom are in real pain, as if they are animals in a zoo. Thankfully, I can honestly say I have nothing but respect for everyone who has shared their stories. Their humanity and willingness to open themselves up to the world is awe inspiring.
Same 👍 I'm a Norwegian supporter Mormon Stories. I love the long format too. I am not religious.. but I love my traditional norwegian christian upbringing . Love our church for what it has given me in special days in our lives. .. like bapticm, weddings, funerals. among other special days throughout our lives . We use our church for those days . But that's it too.. no one tells us what to believe, or what to do, or not to do. So it fascinates me to hear how so many mormons are willing to do so much, pay so much, their whole life, for church and religion like mormons do. Give everything to the church, do everything for the religion seems unbelievable almost to me.. but still I believe the ex-mormon struggles are really hard and very real. ❤️
I hope and pray that many people in the world can have that same attitude that you have, because at the end of the day Mormon or non-mormon believer or non-believer, people are still human and I feel if a lot of people would just hear out their point of view of where they come from and at least respect & understand where they come from the world would be a bit more peaceful, that's why I love watching Mormon stories because it gives me a chance to understand a lot in people & for me to humble myself a bit more. This platform has definitely opened me to be more understanding & patient with others around me, especially those who are Orthodox Mormons who live in Utah
I'm amazed at the participants honesty and genuineness( as an irish ex Catholic but we weren't really religious) amazing insight into how people think and at influenced and most of all how they have the courage to look at everything eventually and be so introspective despite what they will lose
What a wonderful testimony to our human journey. Impressive people. I’m a never Mormon, never any religion person who learns from these wonderful podcasts.
Mic drop for Nan. “I’d been believing in a church that didn’t exist.” Same. The church and God I believed in wouldn’t do/treat people the way the LDS church does.
Love these two! The fact that they can admit that they weren't perfect is such a gift to their children. What great parents to be able to speak that way. It's an inspiration to me as a mom raising young kids right now. Thank you for sharing your story.
Really appreciate Nan & Rod being so Frank and open. It was incredibly validating. As well as the pain I feel from my own upbringing, I still feel regret and sorrow for the way my belief in Mormonism informed how I parented my kids. Thankfully we left before the indoctrination was too deep, but I know a lot of damage was done. Apologies don’t seem like enough.
As a nurse, I've had young Mormon missionaries come to my clinic for anxiety. I feel very sad seeing these young men in their outdated, ridiculous uniforms when they should be out there working, dating, having fun and enjoying life.
Great discussion and disclosure of another family saved by the real truth! As a therapist I have seen so so many people making decisions based on fear, guilt and shame. Not because of God, but by the Mormon religion. This channel is doing great work .
I loved this interview! When Nan told the story about the friends with the room full food storage and asked why the church didn't have manuals and discussions for the hard conversations, it blew me away! I loved that so much!
Margi is such a grounding and soulful presence and is so emotionally connected to your guests. What an amazing blessing. And Nan and Rod are a joy. I’m not in Utah and not retired but I would 100% hang out with them and I think the “difficult conversation room” is brilliant. Big props to all y’all. ❤
Oh my gosh! At 1:15:37, my family had the exact same prayer for me when I left the church. My sister being an innocent, fully forthcoming five or six year old at the time told me the family prayed for me every day, and when I asked what they prayed for, she said, "That you will escape Satan's grasp and come back to the truth." It was that moment I realized while they were acting cordial with me, they still thought I was an evil, tainted soul in need of saving. To this day, still probably do.
Thank you for your remarkable story. My wife and I converted to the church about ten years ago. We loved the community of the church and everything about it. Although we did not spend as much time in the church as you did our story is remarkably similar to yours. We were so heartbroken when we realized the church was not true. I tried to ignore the apparent reality of the church and continue attending and accepting the church for what it is. Then one Sunday the lesson was about honesty and integrity and the next Sunday the lesson was built around hypocrisy. AFTER DIGESTING THE INTENT OF THE LESSONS I NEW THEN I COULD NO LONGER ATTEND.
@@hrv4908 I left the Church when I learned about the discrepancies between the History of the church as compared to natural history that you can find in studies of Paleontology. There were no horses in America at the time of the arrival of the Nephites. They were brought over by the Spanish in 1492 some six hundred years later. The whole Book of Mormon is built around the constant battles between the Nephites and the Laminites using horse-drawn chariots. No horses, no artifacts of wheels, what did they use? Add to that the unsavory character of Joseph Smith and the fraud he committed and you have the rest of the story. If you want me to go into detail about that, just ask.
Rod, I have had two mental breakdowns and, after the second one, they changed my meds. I remember sitting in a cafe, waiting for a friend to come and I just started crying and couldn't stop. My friend is a nurse and she just took me to my doctor. That was the second one. My husband died suddenly when I was 37 and a few years later I was diagnosed with breast cancer. I did everything - surgery, chemo, radiation and, once I was done and feeling better and able to go back to work, that was when the second one happened. I am grateful every day for my medication. The thought of going off them terrifies me.
My Mom also hit a wall of severe depression when my older brother went on his mission and she didnt seek help because she buried it thinking she just missed him and wasn't worthy of being a missionary mom. Thank you for this vulnerable conversation.
I remember this happening with my mom when my brother went on his mission too. My brother is 9 years older than me and therefore I was 10-12 and still needing a parent to guide me with my emotions, especially as new ones are springing up. As I remember she cried every single day that he was gone and was constantly worried he would die out in the mission field and worried that she’d said goodbye to him for the last time on this earth and would never physically hug him again. At the age of 10 and 11 I can remember not understanding why she couldn’t pull herself out of her fear for 2 years, why was me right in front of her not worth something?
i love u guys for coming out and sharing your journey...a blessing for many people and not just for merman's because any cult will benefit from this story...thank u thank u that!!! thank u!!!
Unhappy families think the problem is “How do we all be the same.” Happy families think the problem is “How do we be together even though we are so different.”
Thank you so much! My parents are about 10 years older than you. Very helpful for me to consider how my mom feels/felt. Nan reminds me of my mom a lot. I learned so much from listening to your stories! ❤️🌈
One of the most compelling and poetic stories told. (Nan is a problem solver 😘). The implicit and explicit dialogue between the two couples was also very fascinating.
As soon as Nan said “no empty chairs” my grandmas voice was in my head saying that. My heart hurts for my grandma or mom may have these feelings that Nan is expressing. I haven’t been active in 20 years.
It felt good to hear Nan share about how she wanted to hear everything her son was questioning about the church because she could explain it all to him and then see her where she's is now. When I left my dad pretty much said the same thing... thinking he could explain away all the things
This couple could be motivational speakers! So many nuggets of wisdom, beauty, and truth. Love the idea of a “difficult conversations room.” They are helping and acting in service of others by just having conversations like this; it’s aspirational levels of self examination and acceptance. ❤
I enjoyed this one very much. "Golden Convert " here 5 times young women's president. The church was my world imagin my horror when I realized I was knowingly lied to about EVERYTHING!!:Neary destroyed me. My heart broke in a billion pieces 💔. Just so sad
@amyfu2047 The leadership knew about the rock and the hat. They. Knew about there be 9 different versions of the first vision. They knew that Joseph Smith told a 14 year old girl that he as a married middle aged man was told to sleep her. They knew the truth of these stories and dozens more and yet never told converts the truth. Converting them to their lies is horrifically wrong. Its destroying families and they need to be held accountable for fraud. They have knowingly lied about EVERYTHING to the converts and members and it is horrific
As a never Mormon, I appreciate Margi so much as a facilitator bc I can gauge the impact of a guests story by Margi’s emotional response. It’s very beautiful and impactful.
2024… my husband and I are now on this journey. We don’t have children,so not a problem there. Our extended family is half and half. But it’s still hard.
Thank you so much Nan and Rod for sharing your journey ❤ What a beautiful family story. Thank you for your service to All! Love Mormon Stories Much Love to All ❤
Its so important to see people admiting their mistakes, not minimizing them or explaining them away fully. Its so important! And brave I think. This is such a great interview.
Thank you so much for sharing your story Nan and Rod. I am 58 and just going through a very similar journey. I even served my mission in Dallas. Listening to your story was very helpful to me. I loved when one of you said that no one you know who has left the church has wanted to leave. That is the thing I so wish people still in the church could understand. Thank you.
When I went thru my Dark Night of the Soul all I could do was cry and lay in my bed. I would shake and cry. This happened after my 26 yo daughter moved over 2000 miles away during Covid to escape having to get the shot to keep her job. And I was also awakening to the total lie that religion was so I no longer had my "faith" to lean on. Such a dark place. I dont know how I survived. I know exactly how Rod felt. Your whole reality crashes. Your foundation is just GONE! Blessings to you both. Spiritual awakening is not for pansies. It takes guts to see the truth and accept it.
I'm curlous..when you awaken to the lie that it is and leave... when something bad happens... say an illness or a job loss do you think perhaps you're being punished for leaving by God or do your believing members think that amongst themselves or to you? Struggling with this alot and could use some thoughts from others instead of being alone in it. Thanks!
@@user-gr9tm4ez7i if God would punish you for doing the very best with your limited abilities and knowledge when He won’t just come in and clarify things, He’s not Father. You’re doing the best you can! Others lies and deceptions are NOT ON YOU.
Oh it absolutely takes guts. It’s a very lonely, very painful journey. None of my “family” would travel it with me. They chose willful ignorance and admitted as much. No mourning with those that mourn. I’ve never known pain like the betrayal and loss and loneliness I felt as my faith fell apart. But still I faced what I could not ignore.
This is EXCELLENT! I relate so much to realizing not all the fruit of the gospel is good! Thank you so much for sharing such a vulnerable story with authenticity. It has helped me to forgive myself for the way I reacted to my children’s faith journey…..and also have deep empathy for our parents deep pain and suffering as most of their children and grandchildren leave the faith.
I just keep coming back for these stories. This beautiful, precious couple… I’m a never Mo but I’m a mom of a gay son. This was just such a wonderful two part interview. Much love to this sweet couple. I already watched to documentary when it came out but now I have to go back and rewatch. ❤
Only 30 min in, but my goodness my heart goes out to them and everything they faced with the mental health crisis. No one should ever be told they can choose happiness in that moment. I'm so glad you had other support because they could have made everything even worse.
“The quality of your life depends on the number of difficult conversations you are willing to have.” TRUTH! So opposite of the complete shunning I have experienced from some when I left a spiritually ( using other kinds) abusive marriage. The saddest thing to me is how righteous and “Christlike” those people think they are.
Thought this was an excellent episode. Appreciated Nan's and Rod's openness about their journey and their thought processes and feelings as they went through it. Appreciated John's point about how you can do all the "church recommended regimen" and you will still look around and see that half the families are gone. So true. These guys got so many things right about interfamilial relationships and the thought processes that go with them in the church. I've been explaining the church to my non-LDS therapists for years. They often look like they've been hit by a 2x4; it can be mind-boggling. I wish I could condense some of these podcasts into a brain dump for them. It would be so enlightening. It's very hard for those who didn't grow up in it to grasp. This is so validating in so many ways.
Yoo, my faith crashed like this Fed did, but in regards to traditional Christianity. I was raised that the pastor is the one who talks to God, etc. This man nearly made me cry, as it hit home really hard. My whole identity was lost, and thrown in the trash. This lady said something perfect. She refused to throw away what really was of the Father. Things of the Father can not be altered. Man made religion, produces man mad destruction. Religion has been the root to so much evil in this world!! I really like these people!!!! 🤗 Love These Podcasts!!
It’s so sad to listen to these stories and see how many people become atheists/agnostic after leaving the Mormon Church. It’s as if they are taught that the Mormon church is what Christianity is. They leave what they thought was what it looked like to follow Jesus, when they never knew Jesus at all. If some of you on here are in this position, I pray that you not throw the baby out with the bath water. A true relationship with Jesus brings freedom and joy, which is exactly the opposite of what the Mormon church offers. I pray you not walk away before trying to seek the True Jesus.
Listening to Rod’s description of breaking down, crying uncontrollably, and feeling despair for days after, surprised and touched me. It sounds like almost the exact reaction I have when I experience a situation that reminds me of the incident that caused my ptsd. I don’t know if that’s what he’s experiencing but I really related to what he was saying particularly when he described being unable to summon any positive thoughts for days. I would always describe it like feeling transported into a different dimension where everything is darker or like feeling like I’m trapped in a nightmare even though I’m awake. I really hope he isn’t still experiencing that kind of distress!
I grew up Catholic, I cannot even begin to tell y’all how much this podcast means. I feel like you cannot find another family more compassionate, they really didn’t want to give up their faith. I truly believe they still want to believe it all. I do not understand why a religion can be made specifically for people of Mormon faith that would allow them to not feel same if their kids of the finest things that so so many families are going through. I found out that my 19 year old daughter is gay, she does not like boys. It was such a shock to me. I never seen it coming because she did like boys, at least that’s what she thought us parents needed to see. She is such a sweet, amazing, kind, empathetic young lady that I know for certain there’s no way that any god would punish her. I just cannot believe that. I truly believe that so many men and women had been hiding their true self in fear of being let down by the world, finally a lot of people who are gay can come out and be honest and live their true life. Nan reminds me of myself, they both are amazing people. Anyone who feels negative to people like tt el still had a lot of work to do. I truly feel like god wouldn’t want you to judge others. I accepted my daughter right away. I had so many fears of people not accepting her but beyond that I knew my love for her was more powerful than any other thing on the planet. My kids are my life. I know that I raised my kids right. The terror that my sensitive, Amazing daughter had to tell us that she didn’t like boys broke my heart. I just hugged her and told her that is fine and I will always love her the same. I just want her to be happy, be in a relationship that’s healthy, etc.
The Mormon church is out of touch for shaming single parents & people like myself who have problems with dating, nevermind the fact I or anyone else that has a disability that may have a hard time dating in general 🤷♂️
I gave up dating, as a new convert 30+ years ago. I should have listened to my mother say date a good man instead I listened to church leaders saying date only those who could take you to the Temple... I was already over 30 years old and by the time I realized it was too late to marry and have children. Yes, there's a chance I'll meet someone even now, but my prime years and child bearing years are long past 😞 So, I stay for now. But, I'm not as into it .
Nan and Rod, thank you for sharing your story! Your love for your children and each other was a joy to listen to. My husband and I quit going during covid and discovered a whole new relationship with each other and got even better when I gave myself the ok to not return to church. We are in our 50's and it was refreshing to listen to your story and it made me determined to welcome hard conversations!
Pt 1 was another great episode. I grew up Catholic and am dealing with same as Nan. However, I did challenge my parents, catechism teachers, any theologian priest. My uncle is a Jesuit, and even as liberal as they are, I challenged the patriarchal priorities.
Thank you Nan and Rod for sharing your story. I felt all the feelings and your story was so relatable to mine. I’m so glad to hear you are both thriving. 🎉
Listening to this and getting so emotional. I’ve went through a similar situation with this man. And every time my visiting teachers called they’re coming to visit me I would start throwing up and getting sick so bad and my husband was the best dealing with it all. To make things worse my church friends instead of being my friends they started talking down on me for leaving the church.
I had to pause the Mormon No More docu-series to cry when Nan said she was leaving the church. She reminds me so much of my mom, and I felt like I was seeing one of my greatest dreams come to life on screen when I’m pretty sure I will never have that in real life. I was so overwhelmed with both happiness for her and hopeless longing for myself.
Wow hearing her son Jon say it was In the air that I breathed in regards to knowing how is older brother felt if he made a choice that want against what their parents and the church wanted. Also I need to say how PROUD I am of Nan and Rob your children are lucky to have you and I’m so glad you shared you story.
Like Nan, I just went through the "awakening" that my worrying about other people's moods and problems and trying to fix them was really bad for me. I've been trying to practice self care but I'm still in the middle of trying to change patterns.
That I always told to my church friends, i only leave the Mormon building and the mormonism doctrines, but not God, God is always with me whether i am at the church or not.
I just finished binging Mormon No More after hearing your stories and I CRIED my eyes out out of both happiness they found each other but so much sadness what they went through to get there. So great Sal has great and amazing parents ❤ I’m sure it’s been a super hard journey but great to see the support your family has.
Nan, I think this is very common in us older Mormons/ ex-Mormons. 1:20 We were taught to be co-dependent. We couldn’t get pulled through the veil (Celestial kingdom) at the temple unless our husband made it to heaven first. So, it was taught from a young age that our thoughts and feelings didn’t matter, we were to please our husband, help make him happy. BTW: I love your daughter’s story. I came out at 44, married the love of my life, my wife 🏳️🌈 and during the Nov 2015 witch hunt, they excommunicated me.
I am experiencing this right now...orthodox mormon. Kids leaving. Losing my faith. I'm feeling so lost. This was really helpful. Thank you for sharing.
Great episode I love how differently they both experienced the same crisis or situation very interesting. beautiful couple I am so glad they can now flourish their relationship outside the church.
I relate so much - never Mormon Christian here, but also bought into being "good" as the most important objective, beyond all reason. Digesting the reality that the authorities informing me about what "good" meant: 1) did not have my best interests at heart, 2) benefited from my chicken-head-cut-off-kinda chasing for that "goodness" along with its ensuing shame spiral, and 3) could not see beyond that conditioning either. It's a lot. One step, next step...hugs, and thank you.
As an exmuslim, I really appreciate this podcast. It's VERY DIFFICULT to find exmuslims talking about their experience in fear of death. This podcast talks about experiences that I, as an ex shia muslim, have experienced. It's very validating, and I appreciate that!
Wow. A room where we have hard conversations. Best mental health idea
Amazing how it’s the same with all of the religions, huh? God doesn’t torment us by what we don’t do. :) He frees us, by what He’s already done. That’s what a relationship with Him brings. Blessings-
Thanks for sharing. I'd like to hear more of the perspectives of those who have left organized religions.
I'm an ex-Baptist, and this podcast spoke volumes to me, as I'm sure it did to you.
As an ex-Muslim I cannot believe how similar this is to my life experience
This will go down in history as one of the best episodes. Both Nan and Rod were both so open, insightful, and thoughtful. I really appreciate you having them share their story.
Agreed! One of my favorites!
Completely agree
As the only ex-mormon in my entire very large extended family, parents like these are a breath of fresh air. Mine are incapable of seeing their own mistakes and have never sincerely apologized for anything. I cut off all contact almost three years ago but the sting of their abusive parenting (which weaponized the church in every possible way) is still present most days. I know my parents will never seek a "do over" and I'll never hear a kind word from them. But it's nice to know that there are a few good parents out there.
I feel you. My parents are also completely unconscious to the abuse they have perpetrated and I’ve accepted and deeply grieved that they never will awaken to the damage that has resulted from their actions. I don’t begrudge them, I’m not angry. Just sad. And it’s enlightening to see that there ARE parents out there who are waking up to reality also and doing what they can to make things right.
@@deebee2603 I appreciate this. You're exactly right that they register dissent from and criticism against the church as a deeply wounding attack on themselves. It's taken time in therapy but I finally see their desperately-concealed fragility and the fear that has driven every decision they've ever made.
I respectfully disagree (just a little bit) though, their defensiveness has a little bit to do with who I am. They know that I am not an unintelligent, impulsive, fragile, or angry person. I do not fit any of the descriptions of people who leave the church that they've always taken at face value. If I say I learned of historical accounts that cast doubt on the church's truth claims, on some level they have to consider that I might not be making it all up. It'd be a lot easier on them if I obviously left the church over some petty offense or because I wanted to break the WoW, but there's no evidence of either.
@@Sarahwithanh444 Thanks for this. I feel the same way. No resentment or anger anymore, just grief. I wish you all the best as you work toward healing.
Wow it really baffles me to hear how Mormon parents force a lot of their beliefs on their children. I'm a 7 year mormon convert who left the church 5 months ago and hearing all of these stories just reminds me I am not alone in my faith journey, I'm really sorry that all of you had to go through all this. Just remember you are all strong and the fact that you guys are talking about it and are supporting one another is an amazing step on rebuilding yourselves through the abuse you have all faced. I hope one day I can come on and share my Mormon story and I can better help those that are in this type of predicament.
That must feel very lonely at times. That’s sad.
Nan and Rob your story was compelling and honest. I am a never Mormon but your story has many life lessons. Your children must be proud of your journey to this point. Thank you for putting yourself out there in the most heartfelt way. Hope to hear a “part three’ down the road. Much success.
Rod just discredited the first 3 prophets in minutes. This is powerful, John!I I could show his monologue to believing family members that I wouldn't bother bringing literally anything else to.
It’s as if an FBI agent did a full investigation on church history. Pretty incredible to listen to and we need much more of that. Evidence.
“The quality of your life is largely dependent on the number of difficult conversations you are willing to have.”
Thank you so much Nan and Rod for sharing your story. You have helped articulate so many of my feelings and experiences with the church and leaving .
I live this quote so much! I wrote it down and put it up in my wall. With credit to Nan for this hard-won truth.
@@KC-or1ic- I wrote it down as well & passed it on to many of my clients (I’m a therapist).
Just so powerful!!!
I have watched scads and scads of these and I NEVER tire of hearing the unique stories.
Same! And I'm a nevermo 😊
Rod sharing his investigation into the church is one the most passionate shares I've heard about the Mormon church. He did his homework, and it shows.
We need a whole episode on how his investigation into the Mormon church relates to his career investigating other organized crime groups
I loved his point by point summary. So concise. Powerful use of reason and heart!
In scripture, Jesus emphaticly stated that the Gospel was completed by his death & resurrection & additions or changes to it were forbidden.
This "another gospel of Jesus Christ" is both cartoonish fiction & it is forbidden.
I’ve said it before but I can’t help say it again. How on EARTH ADO SMART PEOPLE fall for these scams of gold plates and hats and rocks.
@@jamesricks Such a great response. Religion (and especially this one) is organized crime.
We need a Law and Order Special Religion Victims Unit.
“The meaning of life is helping others find meaning in theirs.” Victor Frankl
Thanks you fantastic couple for taking us through your deep life.❤
This interview series with Nan & Rod is the most articulate, thorough share. It covers a huge expanse of ground. These people have expressed SO many of the points of heartbreak, fear, nuance, personal & relationship struggles, religious pitfalls, family implosion, and the emotional rollercoaster (and landmines) that going through a faith crisis in a believing family entails-- both as the child and as the parents. On top of that, they cover their individual deconstruction process and how disappointing and scary it is, which many other interviews here have done, too. But all of this in 1 swoop from their background and their age group? Wow. I wish I could share this with my parents. Thank you Nan, Rod, all the kids, John, and Margi.
Rod is a champion. I'm telling you. Anxiety is unseen and debilitating. none of us are perfect, by any means, and then adding anxiety into the mix makes life so much harder. So good for him for taking the necessary steps to mend himself.
“The quality of your life is largely dependent on the number of difficult conversations you are willing to have”. Wow - this is so powerful. What an incredible interview, thank you both.
I’m not a Mormon, and my only real exposure is from my college roommate and very close friend who was definitely a believer but not at all orthodox. This is all to say there is no real reason for me to be so fascinated by Mormon Stories except that these long-form interviews deepest and most insightful explorations of faith, what it means to be a believer, and what it means to question and possibly lose those beliefs that I have ever seen. I keep checking with myself because i don’t want to believe a non-believer who watches people, some of whom are in real pain, as if they are animals in a zoo. Thankfully, I can honestly say I have nothing but respect for everyone who has shared their stories. Their humanity and willingness to open themselves up to the world is awe inspiring.
Same 👍 I'm a Norwegian supporter Mormon Stories. I love the long format too. I am not religious.. but I love my traditional norwegian christian upbringing . Love our church for what it has given me in special days in our lives. .. like bapticm, weddings, funerals. among other special days throughout our lives . We use our church for those days .
But that's it too.. no one tells us what to believe, or what to do, or not to do.
So it fascinates me to hear how so many mormons are willing to do so much, pay so much, their whole life, for church and religion like mormons do. Give everything to the church, do everything for the religion seems unbelievable almost to me.. but still I believe the ex-mormon struggles are really hard and very real. ❤️
I hope and pray that many people in the world can have that same attitude that you have, because at the end of the day Mormon or non-mormon believer or non-believer, people are still human and I feel if a lot of people would just hear out their point of view of where they come from and at least respect & understand where they come from the world would be a bit more peaceful, that's why I love watching Mormon stories because it gives me a chance to understand a lot in people & for me to humble myself a bit more. This platform has definitely opened me to be more understanding & patient with others around me, especially those who are Orthodox Mormons who live in Utah
I'm amazed at the participants honesty and genuineness( as an irish ex Catholic but we weren't really religious) amazing insight into how people think and at influenced and most of all how they have the courage to look at everything eventually and be so introspective despite what they will lose
same
What a wonderful testimony to our human journey. Impressive people. I’m a never Mormon, never any religion person who learns from these wonderful podcasts.
I've been listening to Mormon Stories for years. This last episode was FANTASTIC. One of my favorite ones. Great story.
40 minutes in to this part 2 and it feels like I'm listening to my family's story. This year has been a huge change/shift in my TBM family.
Mic drop for Nan. “I’d been believing in a church that didn’t exist.” Same. The church and God I believed in wouldn’t do/treat people the way the LDS church does.
Love these two! The fact that they can admit that they weren't perfect is such a gift to their children. What great parents to be able to speak that way. It's an inspiration to me as a mom raising young kids right now. Thank you for sharing your story.
Really appreciate Nan & Rod being so Frank and open. It was incredibly validating. As well as the pain I feel from my own upbringing, I still feel regret and sorrow for the way my belief in Mormonism informed how I parented my kids. Thankfully we left before the indoctrination was too deep, but I know a lot of damage was done. Apologies don’t seem like enough.
As a nurse, I've had young Mormon missionaries come to my clinic for anxiety. I feel very sad seeing these young men in their outdated, ridiculous uniforms when they should be out there working, dating, having fun and enjoying life.
Great discussion and disclosure of another family saved by the real truth! As a therapist I have seen so so many people making decisions based on fear, guilt and shame. Not because of God, but by the Mormon religion. This channel is doing great work .
I loved this interview! When Nan told the story about the friends with the room full food storage and asked why the church didn't have manuals and discussions for the hard conversations, it blew me away! I loved that so much!
Margi is such a grounding and soulful presence and is so emotionally connected to your guests. What an amazing blessing. And Nan and Rod are a joy. I’m not in Utah and not retired but I would 100% hang out with them and I think the “difficult conversation room” is brilliant. Big props to all y’all. ❤
Oh my gosh! At 1:15:37, my family had the exact same prayer for me when I left the church.
My sister being an innocent, fully forthcoming five or six year old at the time told me the family prayed for me every day, and when I asked what they prayed for, she said, "That you will escape Satan's grasp and come back to the truth."
It was that moment I realized while they were acting cordial with me, they still thought I was an evil, tainted soul in need of saving. To this day, still probably do.
Thank you for your remarkable story.
My wife and I converted to the church about ten years ago. We loved the community of the church and everything about it. Although we did not spend as much time in the church as you did our story is remarkably similar to yours. We were so heartbroken when we realized the church was not true. I tried to ignore the apparent reality of the church and continue attending and accepting the church for what it is. Then one Sunday the lesson was about honesty and integrity and the next Sunday the lesson was built around hypocrisy. AFTER DIGESTING THE INTENT OF THE LESSONS I NEW THEN I COULD NO LONGER ATTEND.
Without knowing the details, your reason for leaving sounds like a poor excuse.
@@hrv4908 It's one thing to be naive but entirely another to be gullible.
@@Rongodby Nice try at deflecting/projecting.
@@hrv4908 I left the Church when I learned about the discrepancies between the History of the church as compared to natural history that you can find in studies of Paleontology.
There were no horses in America at the time of the arrival of the Nephites. They were brought over by the Spanish in 1492 some six hundred years later.
The whole Book of Mormon is built around the constant battles between the Nephites and the Laminites using horse-drawn chariots. No horses, no artifacts of wheels, what did they use?
Add to that the unsavory character of Joseph Smith and the fraud he committed and you have the rest of the story. If you want me to go into detail about that, just ask.
Rod, I have had two mental breakdowns and, after the second one, they changed my meds. I remember sitting in a cafe, waiting for a friend to come and I just started crying and couldn't stop. My friend is a nurse and she just took me to my doctor. That was the second one. My husband died suddenly when I was 37 and a few years later I was diagnosed with breast cancer. I did everything - surgery, chemo, radiation and, once I was done and feeling better and able to go back to work, that was when the second one happened. I am grateful every day for my medication. The thought of going off them terrifies me.
I pray you have healing and can take the Band-Aid off someday
People are so paranoid about mental health medication’s. Thank God for them. They are life-changing. 26:34
My Mom also hit a wall of severe depression when my older brother went on his mission and she didnt seek help because she buried it thinking she just missed him and wasn't worthy of being a missionary mom. Thank you for this vulnerable conversation.
I remember this happening with my mom when my brother went on his mission too. My brother is 9 years older than me and therefore I was 10-12 and still needing a parent to guide me with my emotions, especially as new ones are springing up. As I remember she cried every single day that he was gone and was constantly worried he would die out in the mission field and worried that she’d said goodbye to him for the last time on this earth and would never physically hug him again. At the age of 10 and 11 I can remember not understanding why she couldn’t pull herself out of her fear for 2 years, why was me right in front of her not worth something?
I resonated with Nan when she said that she has had many spiritual experiences but that it doesn’t mean you have to believe in the church itself.
The passion from Rod when he was talking about the church history was fantastic. I could hear him for hours
All I can say is WOW!! This couple is so genuine and real.
I love their rainbow pins! 🌈
What amazing stories and I loved their daughter’s story as well.
Rod should write a book! How an FBI investigator discovered the LDS church is false! I’d buy it!
Me too.
Me too, especially of what he had to go through at home aside his work...to be completary & continuing
Nan and Rod are so articulate and brave and generous in this interview. Very inspiring people. I wish all the best for them-their future is bright!
This was one of the best interviews you have done. Thank you to this family for sharing your story. I wish you all the best in your future!
Now I know why Sally is so great: She has great parents!❤ I love their authenticity and vulnerability!!!❤
Right 🧡🧡
Same!
i love u guys for coming out and sharing your journey...a blessing for many people and not just for merman's because any cult will benefit from this story...thank u thank u that!!! thank u!!!
What a wonderful podcast! Mormon stories have been helping me so much! Thank you!
Unhappy families think the problem is “How do we all be the same.” Happy families think the problem is “How do we be together even though we are so different.”
We don't have to think that way _ there's the best part. We just are.
I think Rod’s soul was screaming out because your soul knows the truth. So sad and vulnerable.
I am not even a Mormon but somehow it was so relatable and helpful. 😂 Thank you!
YES! I took away a big lesson on letting go of things that no longer serve you - even if they served you in the past.
@@jathompson37 Nicely put 😊
I am not Mormon, but I identify so deeply with a lot of the discussion about needing to be the peacemaker, having to hustle for worth, etc.
@@katesanders2219 right?! Glad when it's getting discussed and acknowledged under really different angles and perspectives 🙂
Place no other Gods before me…. Children and families can become mothers God.
Thank you so much! My parents are about 10 years older than you. Very helpful for me to consider how my mom feels/felt. Nan reminds me of my mom a lot. I learned so much from listening to your stories! ❤️🌈
One of the most compelling and poetic stories told. (Nan is a problem solver 😘). The implicit and explicit dialogue between the two couples was also very fascinating.
As soon as Nan said “no empty chairs” my grandmas voice was in my head saying that. My heart hurts for my grandma or mom may have these feelings that Nan is expressing. I haven’t been active in 20 years.
Every time I listen to a new episode it becomes my favorite one!! I think this one might take the cake. What beautiful, kind and loving people. ❤
Rod’s diatribe about polygamy was masterful and moving
It felt good to hear Nan share about how she wanted to hear everything her son was questioning about the church because she could explain it all to him and then see her where she's is now. When I left my dad pretty much said the same thing... thinking he could explain away all the things
This couple could be motivational speakers! So many nuggets of wisdom, beauty, and truth. Love the idea of a “difficult conversations room.” They are helping and acting in service of others by just having conversations like this; it’s aspirational levels of self examination and acceptance. ❤
I enjoyed this one very much. "Golden Convert " here 5 times young women's president. The church was my world imagin my horror when I realized I was knowingly lied to about EVERYTHING!!:Neary destroyed me. My heart broke in a billion pieces 💔. Just so sad
......and then refed those lies to young, impressionable girls! Your story is mine!
Me too, still looking at the pieces trying to work out what’s next... so much time given and major life decisions influenced; I am bewildered.
Can you explain what you mean by “i was knowingly lied to about everything?”
@amyfu2047
The leadership knew about the rock and the hat. They. Knew about there be 9 different versions of the first vision. They knew that Joseph Smith told a 14 year old girl that he as a married middle aged man was told to sleep her. They knew the truth of these stories and dozens more and yet never told converts the truth. Converting them to their lies is horrifically wrong. Its destroying families and they need to be held accountable for fraud. They have knowingly lied about EVERYTHING to the converts and members and it is horrific
As a never Mormon, I appreciate Margi so much as a facilitator bc I can gauge the impact of a guests story by Margi’s emotional response. It’s very beautiful and impactful.
2024… my husband and I are now on this journey. We don’t have children,so not a problem there. Our extended family is half and half. But it’s still hard.
Thank you so much Nan and Rod for sharing your journey ❤
What a beautiful family story.
Thank you for your service to All!
Love Mormon Stories
Much Love to All ❤
This has been one of my fave episodes. Now I have to go rewatch sals episode!
Also Margi looks so cute with a ponytail!
Its so important to see people admiting their mistakes, not minimizing them or explaining them away fully. Its so important! And brave I think. This is such a great interview.
Thank you so much for sharing your story Nan and Rod. I am 58 and just going through a very similar journey. I even served my mission in Dallas. Listening to your story was very helpful to me. I loved when one of you said that no one you know who has left the church has wanted to leave. That is the thing I so wish people still in the church could understand. Thank you.
When I went thru my Dark Night of the Soul all I could do was cry and lay in my bed. I would shake and cry. This happened after my 26 yo daughter moved over 2000 miles away during Covid to escape having to get the shot to keep her job. And I was also awakening to the total lie that religion was so I no longer had my "faith" to lean on. Such a dark place. I dont know how I survived. I know exactly how Rod felt. Your whole reality crashes. Your foundation is just GONE! Blessings to you both. Spiritual awakening is not for pansies. It takes guts to see the truth and accept it.
I'm curlous..when you awaken to the lie that it is and leave... when something bad happens... say an illness or a job loss do you think perhaps you're being punished for leaving by God or do your believing members think that amongst themselves or to you? Struggling with this alot and could use some thoughts from others instead of being alone in it. Thanks!
@@user-gr9tm4ez7i if God would punish you for doing the very best with your limited abilities and knowledge when He won’t just come in and clarify things, He’s not Father. You’re doing the best you can! Others lies and deceptions are NOT ON YOU.
Oh it absolutely takes guts. It’s a very lonely, very painful journey. None of my “family” would travel it with me. They chose willful ignorance and admitted as much. No mourning with those that mourn. I’ve never known pain like the betrayal and loss and loneliness I felt as my faith fell apart. But still I faced what I could not ignore.
@@yeshalloween Bless you as you continue on your journey
@@yeshalloween thank you 💛
this means so much
Wow that was a great 2 part episode. I loved the way Nan and Rod told their story. Very engaging and compelling throughout it all. Great show!
This is EXCELLENT! I relate so much to realizing not all the fruit of the gospel is good! Thank you so much for sharing such a vulnerable story with authenticity. It has helped me to forgive myself for the way I reacted to my children’s faith journey…..and also have deep empathy for our parents deep pain and suffering as most of their children and grandchildren leave the faith.
My wife and I are about 1 year out of the church and your emotion journey with your marriage was very inspiring and validating. You’re amazing!
I just keep coming back for these stories. This beautiful, precious couple… I’m a never Mo but I’m a mom of a gay son. This was just such a wonderful two part interview. Much love to this sweet couple. I already watched to documentary when it came out but now I have to go back and rewatch. ❤
Only 30 min in, but my goodness my heart goes out to them and everything they faced with the mental health crisis. No one should ever be told they can choose happiness in that moment. I'm so glad you had other support because they could have made everything even worse.
It would be amazing to hear Rod profile Joseph Smith and retell his life through the lens of law and crime.
YES. Genius pitch. I hope they do this
one of the best interviews I've ever heard... an amazing story and process
I love these people❤great interview John..thank you 🙏
Such an interesting story! Thank you Nan and Rod for sharing your experiences with us. I appreciate your honesty!
“The quality of your life depends on the number of difficult conversations you are willing to have.” TRUTH! So opposite of the complete shunning I have experienced from some when I left a spiritually ( using other kinds) abusive marriage. The saddest thing to me is how righteous and “Christlike” those people think they are.
Thought this was an excellent episode. Appreciated Nan's and Rod's openness about their journey and their thought processes and feelings as they went through it. Appreciated John's point about how you can do all the "church recommended regimen" and you will still look around and see that half the families are gone. So true. These guys got so many things right about interfamilial relationships and the thought processes that go with them in the church. I've been explaining the church to my non-LDS therapists for years. They often look like they've been hit by a 2x4; it can be mind-boggling. I wish I could condense some of these podcasts into a brain dump for them. It would be so enlightening. It's very hard for those who didn't grow up in it to grasp. This is so validating in so many ways.
Yoo, my faith crashed like this Fed did, but in regards to traditional Christianity. I was raised that the pastor is the one who talks to God, etc.
This man nearly made me cry, as it hit home really hard.
My whole identity was lost, and thrown in the trash.
This lady said something perfect. She refused to throw away what really was of the Father.
Things of the Father can not be altered.
Man made religion, produces man mad destruction. Religion has been the root to so much evil in this world!!
I really like these people!!!! 🤗
Love These Podcasts!!
I love these remarkable people.
It’s so sad to listen to these stories and see how many people become atheists/agnostic after leaving the Mormon Church. It’s as if they are taught that the Mormon church is what Christianity is. They leave what they thought was what it looked like to follow Jesus, when they never knew Jesus at all.
If some of you on here are in this position, I pray that you not throw the baby out with the bath water. A true relationship with Jesus brings freedom and joy, which is exactly the opposite of what the Mormon church offers. I pray you not walk away before trying to seek the True Jesus.
Listening to Rod’s description of breaking down, crying uncontrollably, and feeling despair for days after, surprised and touched me. It sounds like almost the exact reaction I have when I experience a situation that reminds me of the incident that caused my ptsd. I don’t know if that’s what he’s experiencing but I really related to what he was saying particularly when he described being unable to summon any positive thoughts for days. I would always describe it like feeling transported into a different dimension where everything is darker or like feeling like I’m trapped in a nightmare even though I’m awake. I really hope he isn’t still experiencing that kind of distress!
Oh I wish I could send this to my mom. Wow
I grew up Catholic, I cannot even begin to tell y’all how much this podcast means. I feel like you cannot find another family more compassionate, they really didn’t want to give up their faith. I truly believe they still want to believe it all. I do not understand why a religion can be made specifically for people of Mormon faith that would allow them to not feel same if their kids of the finest things that so so many families are going through. I found out that my 19 year old daughter is gay, she does not like boys. It was such a shock to me. I never seen it coming because she did like boys, at least that’s what she thought us parents needed to see. She is such a sweet, amazing, kind, empathetic young lady that I know for certain there’s no way that any god would punish her. I just cannot believe that. I truly believe that so many men and women had been hiding their true self in fear of being let down by the world, finally a lot of people who are gay can come out and be honest and live their true life. Nan reminds me of myself, they both are amazing people. Anyone who feels negative to people like tt el still had a lot of work to do. I truly feel like god wouldn’t want you to judge others. I accepted my daughter right away. I had so many fears of people not accepting her but beyond that I knew my love for her was more powerful than any other thing on the planet. My kids are my life. I know that I raised my kids right. The terror that my sensitive, Amazing daughter had to tell us that she didn’t like boys broke my heart. I just hugged her and told her that is fine and I will always love her the same. I just want her to be happy, be in a relationship that’s healthy, etc.
Do you continue in the Catholic faith or have you stepped away from religious practice?
The Mormon church is out of touch for shaming single parents & people like myself who have problems with dating, nevermind the fact I or anyone else that has a disability that may have a hard time dating in general 🤷♂️
I gave up dating, as a new convert 30+ years ago. I should have listened to my mother say date a good man instead I listened to church leaders saying date only those who could take you to the Temple... I was already over 30 years old and by the time I realized it was too late to marry and have children. Yes, there's a chance I'll meet someone even now, but my prime years and child bearing years are long past 😞
So, I stay for now. But, I'm not as into it .
Nan and Rod, thank you for sharing your story! Your love for your children and each other was a joy to listen to. My husband and I quit going during covid and discovered a whole new relationship with each other and got even better when I gave myself the ok to not return to church. We are in our 50's and it was refreshing to listen to your story and it made me determined to welcome hard conversations!
Pt 1 was another great episode. I grew up Catholic and am dealing with same as Nan. However, I did challenge my parents, catechism teachers, any theologian priest. My uncle is a Jesuit, and even as liberal as they are, I challenged the patriarchal priorities.
Do you practice any Faith journey currently or have you stepped away from religious participation ?
Definitely looking forward to hearing about Rod’s career!
Thanks so much for the concept of a room in one's home for difficult conversations. Truely courageous.
Thank you Nan and Rod for sharing your story. I felt all the feelings and your story was so relatable to mine. I’m so glad to hear you are both thriving. 🎉
Listening to this and getting so emotional. I’ve went through a similar situation with this man. And every time my visiting teachers called they’re coming to visit me I would start throwing up and getting sick so bad and my husband was the best dealing with it all. To make things worse my church friends instead of being my friends they started talking down on me for leaving the church.
❤. Listen to your inner self.
They are describing my generation of Mormon and what being "LDS" meant... Ugg still makes me emotionally unstable. Nibbled my way through the podcast.
Me, too,, an entire bags of ginger snaps. 🎉
I had to pause the Mormon No More docu-series to cry when Nan said she was leaving the church. She reminds me so much of my mom, and I felt like I was seeing one of my greatest dreams come to life on screen when I’m pretty sure I will never have that in real life. I was so overwhelmed with both happiness for her and hopeless longing for myself.
Wow hearing her son Jon say it was In the air that I breathed in regards to knowing how is older brother felt if he made a choice that want against what their parents and the church wanted. Also I need to say how PROUD I am of Nan and Rob your children are lucky to have you and I’m so glad you shared you story.
Like Nan, I just went through the "awakening" that my worrying about other people's moods and problems and trying to fix them was really bad for me. I've been trying to practice self care but I'm still in the middle of trying to change patterns.
Parents of 4 adult children. They have all left. When we left, it caused shockwaves in the family, ward and stake.
Judi! 👋❤
I don't remember knowing you'd left! Well, I guess I don't know when either, so maybe I wouldn't have known. 🤷♀️
@@justJelene we resigned April 6, 2018
@@judijudkins4663 Happy to hear it! Might be around the time I officially left - I don't really know when I sent the letter. 🤔
I just want people to know just because you don't believe in the Mormon church doesn't mean you still can't believe in God
That I always told to my church friends, i only leave the Mormon building and the mormonism doctrines, but not God, God is always with me whether i am at the church or not.
Wow even in that hypothetical story she was gaslighting her kids. glad her kids made it through that okay because that must have been so hard.
2:44:10 WOW. “The quality of your life is largely dependent on the amount of difficult conversations you are willing to have”
I just finished binging Mormon No More after hearing your stories and I CRIED my eyes out out of both happiness they found each other but so much sadness what they went through to get there. So great Sal has great and amazing parents ❤ I’m sure it’s been a super hard journey but great to see the support your family has.
thank you for this podcast especially for those of us who don't have Hulu. This is a "complete" story with lots of ups and downs.
Fascinating!! I love these people.
Nan, I think this is very common in us older Mormons/ ex-Mormons. 1:20
We were taught to be co-dependent.
We couldn’t get pulled through the veil (Celestial kingdom) at the temple unless our husband made it to heaven first. So, it was taught from a young age that our thoughts and feelings didn’t matter, we were to please our husband, help make him happy.
BTW: I love your daughter’s story. I came out at 44, married the love of my life, my wife 🏳️🌈 and during the Nov 2015 witch hunt, they excommunicated me.
The Church has but God hasn’t congratulations on finding your soul and life partner many blessing to you and yours
I was raised In a different organization and left at the age of 35. I relate to so much of your story… thank you so much for sharing!
Wow! I am a non practicing catholic and I loved this poscast with Nan and Rod!❤😊
What a great episode 😊
wow. as a mother I needed this episode
I am experiencing this right now...orthodox mormon. Kids leaving. Losing my faith. I'm feeling so lost. This was really helpful. Thank you for sharing.
Nan is about my age, but it's like we were raised in different centuries. It's like the women's movement never happened.
I think Nan had those spiritual experiences because she deeply love her God and Jesus. Her devotion was not to earthly men
Great episode I love how differently they both experienced the same crisis or situation very interesting. beautiful couple I am so glad they can now flourish their relationship outside the church.
I relate so much - never Mormon Christian here, but also bought into being "good" as the most important objective, beyond all reason. Digesting the reality that the authorities informing me about what "good" meant: 1) did not have my best interests at heart, 2) benefited from my chicken-head-cut-off-kinda chasing for that "goodness" along with its ensuing shame spiral, and 3) could not see beyond that conditioning either. It's a lot. One step, next step...hugs, and thank you.