Going Under the Ice with Dr. Samuel Howell
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- Опубликовано: 3 май 2022
- My guest today is Dr. Sam Howell, a planetary scientist with NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory. Sam studies the interiors of icy worlds, like Europa and Enceladus and is pioneering methods to explore their subsurface oceans.
science.jpl.nasa.gov/people/s...
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I am 67. When I was 9 or 10, starting to read science books from the adult section of the library, all those moons were considered DRY. The switch, to an awareness of a lot of extraterrestrial water, is ENORMOUS--and exciting.
This is an all time classic interview. Thanks Fraser.
You know it's epic... it's 90 minutes.
Fraser, your such an incredible interviewer. My brain is larger from your interviews. Always teasing out more info from our best scientists. Your own knowledge and interest shows and definitely helps to pull out more tantalizing information. Thank you
Dr. Howell is so well spoken.. great explanations.. This is the Space Whale interview we have been waiting for! : - )
What a GREAT interview! It feels so limiting to be stuck in this meat suit and unable to explore the vastness of this and other worlds. I want to live forever JUST so I can experience major advancements in space exploration in physical form and watch Earthlings grow out of infancy and into walking among the stars.
I think Jesus will reveal all the secrets of the universe in the afterlife 😎
This was a wonderful interview! Thanks to the both of you
Excellent guest and interview!
Thanks !!
Loved this! Quality long form content on one of the scientific missions I'm most excited to see during my life. Along with Titan, Enceladus, moon lava caves, so much exciting exploration to come. I'll be listening to all of these and supporting however I can! Wish we were doing more sooner on all these moons! It'll be so mind blowing and pure fulfilling discovery in so many ways.
What a fantastic interview, so very informative and so very exciting! I was one of those eye-rollers but this has made me very optimistic and excited for this potential mission, turning its lights off and seeing bioluminescent space whales/dolphins under the surface. Can't wait for that 2032 Decadal Survey!
Plutonium powered wire guided vertical torpedo through the ice mantel down to the European ocean. I want to see that before I shuffle off this mortal coil...
Wait for that 1-page 2032 Decadal Survey.
@@frasercain One fully refueled Starship in LEO could throw a 100 ton probe on a direct trajectory to Jupiter. That should be enough mass margin 🙂
@@zapfanzapfan Good. Let's send ten
It would have to be designed to handle a lot of pressure. 25 kilometers of ice even at low gravity will still exert a lot of pressure.
Two smart informed guys having a chat. I love it ❤
Awesome interview
Just loved this interview.... didnt realize it was over an hour and a half until close to the end. Time just flew by! The challenge of getting through the ice is so intriguing to me!
Awesome, I'm glad you enjoyed it.
Easily one of the most fascinating mission concepts. I remember hearing it in highschool and immediately thought: yep this sounds like a slam dunk
What happens if instead of hitting the ocean, you reach an air pocket (or gas pocket I guess) and the ocean is hundreds of meters below you?
I agree thats why we should send more than one
Fantastic interview both the science and the passion were amazing. When Frasier said “limitless budget” I though instantly as he said: “he’s going!!!” 😂
Frazer your a beast! So many new vids lately, all great!!
thnx for the video!
Petition to have Sam back on for round 2.
Round 2? I feel like we covered everything. I'll get him back once Europa Clipper reaches Enceladus.
@@frasercain Europa clipper is going to enceladus?
Hah, Europa😀
@@frasercain why not both?
@@frasercain Fair enough! He was a great guest so I may have gotten carried away lol
I’m a scientist and a space enthusiast. This interview is excellent!!!
What if, on the way down, the probe encounters a honking great big rock? Not just some dirt or a pebble, but a proper boulder. What would it do then? Will it have a drill to drill through the boulder? Would it have some way to melt sideways and go around the rock? Changing directions seems really difficult giving the probe type and situation (ice).
We're gonna need that umbilical cord probe on Uranus for sure bruh
Fraser ...Wonderful interview..Dr.Howell fantastic job communicating this to us..please return again...MUCH LUV FROM N.AUGUSTA S.C
This was an awesome interview.
Hey Fraser- I only just discovered your channel recently, and I've gotta say you do a GREAT job.
So many of the prominent 'science-popularizers' are so god-awful at it. They're inarticulate, awkward, or narcissists who mostly want to preen for the camera --or in some cases just completely full of crap.
(Michio Kaku, for one great example, is just a gargantuan embarrassment to science, media, education, and pretty much everything else.)
I'm always thrilled when I occasionally stumble across someone who does it really well, and you are just superb.
You're super-smart, you always come really well-prepared for the topic and the subject. You carefully follow the interviewee's course, and ask *great* questions --without stepping on or diverting him/her.
There are two essential ingredients to doing great interviews: first, you get really interesting, smart, and articulate people to talk to; second, you shut the hell up and let them talk.
Many famous journalists stupidly depicted as brilliant interviewers seem not to have the tiniest grasp of this simple equation.
(I think right away of Charlie Rose, who was always discussed as a great interviewer by utter dim-wits, and was truly god-awful to anyone with a hundred-plus IQ.)
Your interviews are always tremendously compelling and super-informative, and you always do a fabulous job of gently and skillfully directing them in a minimally-intrusive way.
It really is a joy to randomly stumble across someone who does this stuff so well.
Thank you so much for what you do.
Oh wow, thank you so much for the kind words. I think my secret is that I'm actually curious about their work. 😀
Yep. That comes through very clearly. But it's a lot more than just that.
You do great work. I tip my cap in your direction.
(I'm still watching this one. I keep backing up to make sure I fully got some detail before moving on.
Great stuff.)
Thanks, man.
@@frasercain
Another great interview! Thanks Fraser :)
That was great ! Really good information.
Good Stuff Mate !! 0️⃣👌1️⃣
Awesome. Thanks.
Im fairly new to this channel but this was a very informitive and interesting interview .Well done to both of you and please keep it up .Thank you!!
This was great!
love it!
Such an interesting interview!!!
Fantastic interview!
I just hope NASA will bring the instruments needed to reliably find/ prove life and not make this yet another Viking discovery. So frustrating to get instruments indicating life and then getting no follow up tests for decades...
Great interview!
great interview...nice to hear an interview about something other than black holes
Really interesting, excellent!
"Then I'm going with it." Lol!! Loved the whole interview (second watch through), thank you again to everyone involved!
absolutely brilliant in-depth interveiw, prof brian cox-ish in its explenations
Dr. Howell says that Europa Clipper can only do close fly-bys of Europa every so often because of the radiation...
Why is there so much radiation on the surface of Europa, but not in Clipper's regular orbit around Jupiter? Isn't the radiation coming from Jupiter itself? or is it coming from Europa?
❓ As 3D printers are used to create new items whilst in space, how recyclable are these new objects? Do we have the technology to break them down whilst in space for reuse or are we going to end up littering space even more? Thanks Fraser
Given the unfathomable vastness of space, I really don't think "littering" is a problem.
It's also interesting to think about what littering would even mean in space. Earth gets bombarded by over 100 metric tons of space dust and debris (meteorites) every *day*. So just to "keep up" with the space litter that hits Earth on a daily basis, we would need to send about 10 rockets worth of stuff into space daily just to "keep things balanced" 😉
Like the other poster noted, littering space is not an issue per se. Take the asteroid belt and our ability to send satellites across with out many precautions. However, litering desirable orbital space is a huge issue. Ie Kessler Syndrom. And no we are not actively dealing with the issue today, but we have had several corse corrections to avoid collisions over the past few decades.
I would think there would be some risk, if there is subduction of the surface, there is the possibility of hitting rocky pieces of meteorites that would stop the mission in its tracks. There might have to be a provision for the probe to back out, and change its course to move around an obstacle.
Absolutely fascinating. I hope I'm still around to see this. Always thought Europa was the most interesting external body in the solar system.
Thanks, interesting.
would the separation line of the underside of the Europa ice shell be distinct like the underside of the great ice shelfs of earth or would it be an ice-to-slush gradient following the increasing water temperature with the depth?
That guys collar looks like it could receive a space helmet. It's perfect for this awesome space topic.
Hey Frasier! Love these interviews. Always learned something new and amazing. A question just popped into my head. Is it possible our planet has so much water because Theia was one of these ocean worlds? Or would the collision have burned all the water off?
cool!
Fascinating insight into the science being pursued and the engineering challenges.
The flapping dolphin was an unwanted distraction, suggesting there had been a Pakicetus roaming the icy surface at some point. I guess it’s there to convey scale of a potential probe.
ive watched & listened to this interview probably close to 100 times, because Sam is so good at explaining things, so soothing! but also gets my thinking juices flowing! love itttt, its so fascinating!!
i do have questions still... so if theres ever a chance of a follow-up interview with Sam, please please ask these questions!!
--- for wireless communication between the probe and the surface ---
if electromagnetic, how does that work if jupiter has such a strong magnetic field causing europa to respond with its own magnetic field? wouldnt that massively interfere with the signal of the probe being passed up to the surface? and if using acoustic waves --- wouldnt the tidal forces causing the surface to move around interfere with the signal being passed through?
also how would the wireless receivers be powered down in the ice? would they be powered by the umbilical cord, syphoning off some of that energy as it goes by before it reaches the probe from the surface?
--- for the plutonium as heat/energy source ---
if it gets hot by just sitting there, how do you stop it from melting the icy surface that it sits on?
--- for once your in the ocean ---
could one use echo / sonar to map the sea floor to see if there are any vents?
The communication will be with a wire. It'll spool it down into the ice as it bores down. It'll be powered by the nuclear reactor that' it's using to melt the ice.
Is it possible that there are hollow 'pockets' in the ice and then the craft plummets to its death half way down?
..And would they be able to 'detect' these pockets before landing? Aft landing? Would the probe have any kind of sensor to detect them aft borrowing and be able to change its trajectory? Or do these pockets not even exist? - Not a Planetary Geologist, I just clean up here
Enjoyable & inspiring interview. I find myself both wishing for more than 0.5% of the budget for NASA but also grateful for that half percent. And if space exploration could be *privatized* , the dollars would probably go several times further.
Sounds a lot like ice-fishing, just on a much, much...MUCH bigger scale.
Easiest way is just to use an RTD - the nuclear heat source like powers curiosity etc. Use one as a heat source outside to just slowly melt it’s way through it all - and another inside the probe to power it. Simple.
Would be great to see interviews with other researchers associated with Dr. Howell’s work.
Interesting…I have big feasibility doubts and I hope it doesn’t turn out to be impossible with funding being the first obstacle.
Once the probe breaks through the ice sheet, wouldn’t it just drop straight down? The cable would have to be strong enough to hold it making it very heavy.
Submersible craft don't have any problem with this on earth.
The idea of using a tether seems too resource costly. A tether 25 km long is a lot of payload. Make the probe autonomous, send it down to collect the data and program it to come back up. Make it worm shaped perhaps with legs like a centipede. There might be a problem, though, once it breaches the ice sheet due to a pressure difference. If water shoots up into the hole created by the worm then it would possibly push the robot back out. Timing the tides would be very important, too.
drive 25 km some time and come back to the conversation
A heated umbilical seems possible but its heat requirements could exceed those of the probe.
A Hot Plutonium lawn dart seems well within NASA's technical capacity.
Once getting close to breaking thru the ice could pressure erupt an blow the probe back through the hole it just melted?
1:08:00 this was good one
Glad you enjoyed it.
The key would be hydro-thermal vents and because of Europa close proximity to Jupiter, my guess is that there would be plenty. If there was a higher life form there, would the lower gravity have an effect of the size of the organism? I am thinking cephalopods
I bet that since it's so cold that even the slightest bit of warm water jets would melt the ice and bore a hole thu the ice. you'd have to worry about things refreezing. So maybe you could combine it with like some hot wire rods that heat up through electrical power or some sort of heating element and just push the hot wires down through the ice. The temperature differences would be so drastically different that the ice would really melt.
"25km is just about 10 miles" oh dear, hope there's no metric/imperial issues in the mission.
My thoughts exactly!
A radioactive melt probe would melt through the ice. It could trail a fiber optic communication cable. The cable could have vacuum deposited uranium so it would be warm too and not bind.
58:28 ... that is one of the things I was hoping that through spectroscopy we might be able to find compounds like luciferin and luciferase (products of bioluminescence) in the plumes coming off Enceladus but I guess those would be in such tiny amounts - it wasn't possible with Cassini's instruments and they probably degrade once they hit the radiation of space.
21:05..He got it wrong, reductance is the GAIN of electrons, oxidation is the LOSS of electrons...he has it back to front...
To start digging, shielding for travel at the top front that is then used as a shovel. I bet there's an angle that the majority of the mass can be in relation to the shovel for a counter weight. A NASA post hole maker on an industrial scale. I know there's excavation tools that do this with a proper name. I currently don't know the name.
Those jovian moons are infinitely more curious to me than ice desert Mars where we know there is no life. I prefer to discover live Life if its to be had. As far as Mars, we should send some drone bulldozers and start digging for fossilized life long extinct. Im still hoping for that wow moment where we find a bird skeleton on Mars.
BULLDOZERS?!?!? What century are you living in? This is 2023, not 2223.
If we find a bird skeleton on Mars that would be the worst day in the history of humanity.
@@7777Scion Dyson Swarms are two centuries away but not a bulldozer on Mars. Heck, Space X could do that in 5 years bro, not that hard.
@@lhaviland8602 Why would a bird skeleton on Mars be the worst day in human history? I dont get it. Do you mean it would shatter alot of people's religious views? Science has already been doing that for 150 years and will continue to, but there will always be anthropomorphic delusion and fear driving people to have such beliefs.
Even if we used gravity lensing to prove other sentient beings exist on a planet say 1400 lightyears away, Christians would just say God created them too. They will never stop believing in a Creator hypothesis which is fine by me. Sooner or later we WILL spot an exoplanet that is not only hosting life, but has definite signs of technology. It may be rare but theres simply too many stars in our galaxy alone for the same exact fermi conditions not to arise multiple times.
They may be long extinct, with tons of satellites still orbiting their moons and planets... or maybe we will just spot primitive life thats barely learned agriculture but with gravity lensing, we could actually see mountains on an exoplanet thousands of light years away if we wanted to. Not saying we'll ever travel the stars, but seeing out there is much easier. In 100 years or less, we WILL discover life out there, its simply Math. Heck we may find life on Io or Enceladus within 40 years.
I've got mad professor hair. Green screen not for me... Maybe Fraser's onto something!
I’m green screen ready
I think they should look at probes that go down through the ice and then come back up. Easily testable here on Earth.
01:01:04 ... if there's geologic activity somewhere below, or biological activity in the ocean, wouldn't one expect to hit gas pockets on the underside of the ice - or is the expectation any gas will be dissolved in the liquid?
This is an open question that Europa clipper is built to answer. It'll map the depth of the ice and look for pockets filled with gas or water.
hmm, i can see Venus during the day and Uranus at night with the naked eye. never seen the moons of Jupiter though. next time i'm somewhere really dark ill try again
Good luck! It’s theoretically possible with perfect eyesight, but I don’t know of anyone who can do it.
You might be able to see them with something as simple as a good set of binoculars.
Nasa is so delayed and slow these videos are fresh for years
Why not use sound to communicate with the probe in Europa? The sound can travel through ice and water. The payload will be on the surface of Europa.
Hi Fraser, fascinating interview, I have an unrelated question.
In talk about space junk it always gets mentioned that there is a glove currently in LEO. Which astronaut was unlucky enough to lose a glove and what happened to their hand. Thanks.
You should really learn how to use a search engine! Who lost a glove in space? Ed White
"Starting out the long trend of astronauts losing stuff in space, the very first American spacewalker, Ed White, let go of a glove during his first extra-vehicular activity on the 1965 Gemini 4 flight. The glove stayed in orbit for about a month before burning up in Earth's atmosphere."
Defies explanation how you could think anyone could lose a glove that was being worn at the time, as that would have made international news headlines.
Crikey...In terms of the possibility of finding life underneath the surfaces of the icy moons of the outer solar system, this sits in direct contrast to the conversation you had recently with Dr Craig Walton, who (correct me if I'm wrong), was giving more credence to surface interactions with cosmic dust etc. rather than sub ocean environments that are subject to water dilution of the essential trace elements? What gives? Not enough information obviously.
a few times pressure was mentioned as a limiting factor. I don't understand why pressure is a problem. Forces come from pressure differences. I can not think of a reason, the inside of any probe should maintain a different pressure, inside than the outside pressure.
If the internal structure contains voids then you have to supply pressure to match the outside, otherwise there'll be huge forces. As it is there's a ton of internal stress which can cause problems
Your electronics need protection. Especially from the brine
@@76rjackson Why would you need a low internal pressure for that?
@@MusikCassette You wouldn't, necessarily. It's possible to build the electronics into a pressurized vault but then you need to get all the engineering right to keep it pressurized. A daunting task,though, given the amount of I/O a CPU entails especially on a probe rigged with sensors specifically for data gathering. Perhaps each sensor could be isolated into it's own bubble with a discrete processor and integrated together using wireless LAN.
The lecture begins with a description of how Jupiter electromagnetically charges the whole damn moon up like a wireless cell phone charger and then completely ignores tapping that energy as a power source for the probe. It's a good bet Europan life has evolved to take advantage of it. A powerful, regular, reliable and free energy source isn't going to be ignored by energy hungry life.
I can't believe all you people are so Gullible
01:13:00 Another issue related to NASA's planetary protection protocols ... what happens to the probe once it's at the end-of-life or it gets cut and drops to the ocean floor with basically a chunk of nuclear waste that stays on the bottom for decades.
Radiation level on the surface of Europa is over 100000 rads/year. That should be pretty good self sterilizing. Planetary protection would be unsured by this alone. Rad hard electronics are available from the nuclear industry that can survive this pretty easily though.
I kinda hope they put a tiny speaker inside the cryobot so it can make little fart noises as it poops out it's Wi-Fi relay stations.
Do they already have enough plutonium?
Hoping they find octopi.
earth bugs have probably already made it to Europa
need some panels that can harness the radiation for power.
Okay let's say they get a probe under the ice, wouldn't the radiation kill what they find? Any plans to put a microscope on it to find microbes?
The probe would be shielded (it has to be anyway to keep the electronics happy) and space radiation only penetrates a few centimetres of water (and ice).
Also microbes are pretty sturdy and deal a lot better with radiation than squishy humans and delicate microchips.
Drill baby drill.
Hmm..
Europan, Enceladonian, Ganymedian, Titanian, Jupiterian, Saturnian, Neptunian, Uranian, Plutonian dolphins 🐬🐬🐬
Lots of dolphins:) and water.. origin of hydrocarbons and water in our solar system? They are created on the planets themselves, but how?
To split hairs, 25km of ice is more like 15 miles thick, not 10
What about using a series of thermonuclear detonations? Repurposed nuclear warheads.
Well, that was cool. I'm turning 54 this week and just hope I live long enough to see us find life elsewhere, because it is obvious to any student of Biology, it should be all around us. I want to be able to stick it to anti-science people, but sadly, credulous luddites will always be with us. 🖖
There is no other planets.
They are called wondering stars
I wonder though….If there’s an ocean and let’s assume there’s life, how would life survive? And asking this question keep in mind I’m asking this because Europa doesn’t have the same properties here on earth. They would have to be totally Alien like. The stuff of nightmares or maybe only bacteria 🦠
same way life exists in our darkest ocean depths assuming there is some similiar circle of life there. For example: some alien species as simple as jellyfish or planktin, that feed off processes that happen at the surface and sink downward.
It could be as simple as rotten seaweed being consumed by tiny mulch eating creatures, who in turn make possible a giant carnivore alien squid with giant ferocious teeth.
I think it would be more like the life on earth powered by hydrothermal vents. The life is powered by bacteria that extract energy from the chemicals coming out of the vents.
It doesnt require interaction with the surface.
I’m probably not asking it correctly. What I’m trying to say is like jellyfish and other species that rely solely on plankton and what not, how would they survive without oxygen or the sun? I’m just going to assume if there is…they must survive on whatever it is that Europa provides. Totally different then here on Earth. Absolutely Alien
yep, theres alot Less sunlight and oxygen thats for sure. Its a biochemists wetdream, and Autecologists too (basically ecology) ... The fascinating idea that an entirely different branch of evolution occured for billions of years under some moon ice... The genetics would reveal alot to us. Are they truly an island species or did the life on Europa come from some rock blown out of Earth orbit 365 mya?... We could prove Yeh or Nay if panspermia happened tween Earth & Europia if we had a sample, assuming theres actually something alive there, probably Not..
Fraser is big he is bigger than more plates more dates he could compete is bodybuilding
7:56 I don't understand. Why is there a _"solid tidal wave traveling twice per day around Europa's surface"_ ?? Isn't Europa tidally locked to Jupiter? If Europa is always showing the same face to Jupiter, wouldn't Jupiter always be pulling on the exact same spot of Europa at all times? If so, how does that make a traveling tidal wave around Europa?
I understand how that one spot on Europa would rise and fall (since the strength of Jupiter's gravitational pull on that one specific spot would vary with Europa's eccentric orbit), but I don't understand how that tidal wave would travel _around_ Europa-- let alone multiple times per day.
Obviously, this dude knows his stuff, so I don't doubt that what he's saying is true... I just don't understand _why_ it's true.
Just a layman myself, but perhaps the librations in longitude/ latitude / diurnal cause this? The same way our Moon wobbles? Fantastic interview
@@willreznicek4202 Hmmm... That doesn't quite make sense to me. I'm not sure how such tiny librations could create a tidal wave traveling "around the surface of Europa twice a day".
But heck, I know just about as much about the subject as you do, so maybe you're right. At least you offered _some_ explanation, whereas I offered none.
@@davecarsley8773 We are overthinking this I'd say, if the moon+earth is tidally locked and jupiter+europa, and rotates, it would do the same on earth in reverse, (the moon has the water) so massive tide no? doesnt matter which way it faces
I am aware that our species is not very good at looking out for the best interests of other species. If there is any chance of finding life, should we not be rather concerned about any effects we may have on any potential ecologies there? "Hey guys, we found life! Oops, we killed it."
I'm one of the people in the discipline rolling eyes at him. LOOK, Earth is one thing - where power is easily utilized in relatively warm temps with a nice atmosphere. HOW are you going to get all this material to Europa practically? That will require a revolution in spacecraft and infrastructure to develop such vehicles. THEN you are not going down in the ice on Earth, you don't have the super-cooled ice freezing behind you - WHICH IS A HUGE ISSUE - this is an ENORMOUS engineering obstacle, with the vaccuum of space hindering the process. And, the sheer thickness of the ice we are talking about here is just beyond human tech. I don't want to stop anyone's funding, which is the self-interest here, but tall tales ain't gonna sell anything to the government(s). YEAH! - not gonna happen. "All of those difficulties involved ..." are being brushed aside here, and that's patently asinine.
Hate the timelines on these things. I wish nasa would work faster
Hopefully starship and cheaper space access can help
They need more budget then.
@@frasercainif they don’t need to build such complex and small probes due to additional capabilities of starship then the price would be lower to build the probes
This is orgasm for the mind content.