Are Joint Restrictions in Armor a Good Thing? Sometimes!
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- Опубликовано: 23 июн 2017
- Could the inevitable limits on mobility imposed by armor (even the really good stuff introduces limitations) actually be a good thing? Let's explore the possibility that some restrictions can actually prevent some serious potential injuries.
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One thing I should note to clarify is that I don't really believe this to be an intentional feature in armor, but rather a happy coincidence that might occur from time to time in some fully articulated joint designs. If it was ever an intentional consideration, it was, in my opinion, very secondary.
Great job on the video. I think this is a really good format. Do you know if any treatises use a compression lock like a bicep-slicer? If so, the flexion restriction of the arm or leg harness is equally as useful as the extension restriction.
Even in rib stops?
Knyght Errant I
I wonder if there were any historical fighters with unusual anatomy like old joint injuries or hypermobility where they'd want atypically designed armor.
I've seen the Metropolitans A Visit to the Armor Galleries, (ruclips.net/video/NjKbi7YUNaI/видео.html) and my feet can't do that.
There good high quality sababtons and that far move movement then any one make.
I think that most armour was built to stop certain movements, i.e. the knee and elbows are built to stop the joint from moveing backward.
As someone who's hyperextended their knee going up and down the stairs more than once I knew exactly what your point was going to be just reading the title lol.
i like this format, a concise video making a small but valid point. it would make for a great series, or playlist. `musing on armour with the knight errant` or something like that.
Viridis Lux agreed.
Really, I prefer whatever video length fits the topic being discussed.
If that means a video several minutes long or a series several hours long, go for it.
Stretching or crunching content to fit a time format, while very common negatively impacts quality.
That peg leg looks pretty badass on your friend.
It took him 100 years to lose his leg?
Ian, don't be afraid to make short videos, even if they are going to be less than a minute. In fact, those videos are the most watched ones because of the short attention span most people... where was I again?
(Laughter!!!)Well-Said Tork789!!(More-Laughter!!!!!)And, Sir Ian,(for you are regarded as a True-Knight, NOT a knight-errant, in my kingdom Sir) he's correct; your teachings are valuable and valued, including the short-ones(as I, a 1st-Timer, am discovering tonight, having watched several in a row, as despite the lateness of the hour, and my desire to cleave to the comfort of my bed, I, "just had", to watch, "one or two more", and was thus inspired, to view the shorter-episodes listed as a longer-one ended! Many Thanks to you Sir!!
there are also other sides of it, like the frogmouth helmets used for jousting which are so immobile you cant even turn your head, they were designed to be so restrictive in their motions because they needed to be able to protect you from the shear force of the impact and not have your neck snap under the strain
A random but related thought occured to me. Maybe that's what the rondels on the back of armets are for? Not full on jousting impacts, but some whiplash limitation from a sharp hit to the visor.
Someone was commenting on how surprising it is Knyght Errant doesn't have trolls and haters in his video comments, compared to Shadi, Metatron, Skallagrim and others. I wrote a list of 5 reasons (which will BLOW YOUR MIND!) for why that is, and decided to share it in its own comment.
1) Quality. The other guys are cool, but Ian's quality is in a class of its own. His use of sources, fine details and terminology, exactitude and knowledge mean he's speaking with very high quality academia, and his videos have great presentation.
2) Serious. Ian's videos are pretty serious, without many wacky personalities or jokes, catch phrases or the like. Those things aren't bad, but they do tend to attract critics.
3) Audience. Because of the first two points, Knyght Errant's audience is generally serious people interested in history, rather than random bored youtubers. Trolls rarely have the patience to stick around.
4) Mistakes and Politics. Shadi, Metatron, and Skallagrim have (in some cases frequently) made mistakes, leaving themselves open to criticism from a very serious and very demanding audience (history buffs). Also, they sometimes get into political subjects, which is sure to attract criticism and infighting.
5) Subscriber count. Sad as it is... when you get big you're sure to attract trolls. Knyght Errant's subscriber base is small compared to the other youtubers mentioned.
Hans Smirnov , have you seen Forgotten Weapons comments? There much the same a core of regulars, highly learned people that are after the details.
NO 'put-down' of those mentioned, but, you've hit the proverbial-'nail' on its head, H.S.!! As a new -subscriber to this medium of communication, and, a teacher of 30+years, and, a 'successful', Home-Schooling-Parent(Both my 'babies', now enrolled in college!! The 'success', is theirs, NOT mine!), I KNOW a profiencient-educator, when I witness one; Sir, Ian is! Well Said!!
Great video and I know for myself I'd love to hear all the smaller random points you have to share ^_^
I really like these "straight-to-the point" videos!
This is awesome, Feel free to do more!
This is something that I'd thought about while armouring. In fact I've seen period medical braces & prosthetics modeled after armour.
It makes total sense. The same way that a lot of sports gear is made to restrict your mobility to protect you. A lot of shoes have really rigid ankles to prevent injuries in that vulnerable region.
1:17 Is Nelson fighting with a bloody peg-leg? That's some dedication, there.
Tonguetyd yes. He is an amputee from birth, and my Harnesfecten instructor! I'm the one in the blackened late 14c German harness getting stabbed.
i prefer long videos, but please post even these short ones, each video you make is extremely pleasant to watch.
As soon as I saw the title of this video I assumed this would be the point you would make. Great content as usual
Great video - It was one ot the things I was wondering, when watching the gautlet videos- the restriction of wrist movement should protect it from dislocation (the same way as wrist protectors work for skating).
We can see the benefits of restricted mobility in armour in jousting armours a lot, where the helmets are often locked in place to the breastplate, severely restricting the ability of the wearer to turn or tilt his head, but also limiting the ability of lance impacts or falls to do the same.
On a battlefield such a restriction would make it virtually impossible to deal with opponents outside your immediate view, negating any benefits. In the scenario of the joust, where your opponent is only ever going to come at you straight on, there is much less detriment to a fixed and limited field of view.
I feel kinda silly that I never recognized that aspect of armor, seems really obvious and even important now! lol
If you've got more short topics and points like this, I would love to see them!
This is something I never considered before. Thank you for bringing it up.
SO insightful! Love your channel dude.
Definitely continue with this format!
Thanks for sharing your friends' channel!
I always wondered about that! Thank you for making this video.
Hi Ian
I like the short videos. Very good. Please continue with them.
Always impressed with how much information you pack I to each vid long or short.
Great point! More videos like this for sure
I can't imagine ever turning down an offer of more Knyght Errant videos! If you have the time and resources to make more of these, I would love to see them.
Considering a lot of medieval fighting involved locks and breaking joints, limited mobility to resist hyperextension could be very useful indeed!
More videos like this! The reasons how and why armor worked well are as interesting to me as the armor itself.
As for whether a short topic like this merits its own video, absolutely! It's short, sweet, to the point, and has some reenactment fighting. Love it.
Interesting thought. As a former grapler and bouncer, I can see the advantage of not having ones joints hyper extended in a fight.
I think short videos are great, because they're a short burst of information and because they give me my armour fix in between the big video essays :D
Wow, I've never thought of that, awesome point man!
Knees especially are very fragile. You don't need much force applied to a knee from the side to mess it up. Someone holds your leg and someone else tackles you from the side... Bam! Your knee is busted. Seen it. Done it. Armour makes hurting your knee like this much more difficult if not impossible.
VompoVompatti ACL damage is easy todo
Yes, I would like to see more of these kinds of videos.
Yes, I do like these types of videos a lot.
+Knyght Errant I noticed something about you. Unlike Metatron, Shadiversity, and Skallagrim you have no HATERS, WOW
X Infinity
Shut up, you fool! It's like when a pitcher is throwing a perfect game. You never mention it, or you risk jinxing it!
There are a few reasons for that.
1) Quality. The other guys are cool, but Ian's quality is in a class of its own. His use of sources, fine details and terminology, exactitude and knowledge mean he's speaking with very high quality academia, and his videos have great presentation.
2) Serious. Ian's videos are pretty serious, without many wacky personalities or jokes, catch phrases or the like. Those things aren't bad, but they do tend to attract critics.
3) Audience. Because of the first two points, Knyght Errant's audience is generally serious people interested in history, rather than random bored youtubers. Trolls rarely have the patience to stick around.
4) Mistakes and Politics. Shadi, Metatron, and Skallagrim have (in some cases frequently) made mistakes, leaving themselves open to criticism from a very serious and very demanding audience (history buffs). Also, they sometimes get into political subjects, which is sure to attract criticism and infighting.
5) Subscriber count. Sad as it is... when you get big you're sure to attract trolls. Knyght Errant's subscriber base is small compared to the other youtubers mentioned.
+Garret LeBuis Wow I didnt know a simple opinion will trigger such an idiot. All I just said he has no haters which is very rare for a youtube channel with 30k subs. I was just surprise because there are some youtube channels out there even with less than a thousand subs have haters already
+Hans Smirnov Exactly
The reason I posted this comment is because I am not used to seeing a youtube channels comment section with no haters or trolls. I didnt mean to anger anyone
Nice to see you working with Reece!
Very interesting!
Great point, but I think the joint-bracing effect is probably more useful in the case of being thrown from a horse than in foot combat against another knight due to the forces and awkward postures involved in a fall from horseback. We often don't put a lot on emphasis on the role of riding for knights in HEMA and re-enactment because most of us can't keep horses, but they were a fundamental part of a knight's life. English is the only major European language were the word for knight is not the same as the word for horseman. Given that the most common injuries sustained by modern equestrians are joint and head injuries, I think that the role of knightly armour in protecting from those things is very understated in modern scholarship.
lancer D a lot of the holds and throws used in harnesfecten can ruin your joints. Especially when it comes to grappling with a spear or poleaxe.
Actually there are other languages where it isn't the same, Swedish for example has riddare(knight)and ryttare(horseman) and German has Ritter(knight)and Reiter(Horseman). Though it is obviously clear that those words share a common origin.
i love it, do more.
I'd love more videos like this actually - practical points in short or long videos, depending on the topic. I'm more interested in those personally than in the minute details of armor parts myself (not that you do that wrong, I'm just not the target audience for all your videos).
Really cool video! Love it, thought of josting helms bolted on the cuirasse as well to prevent neck injuries. Be well!
Having taken a hard thrust to the forehead I was really glad my helm limited my mobility. It locked up with my gorget and they both locked up with my cuirass. Heck the gorget limited my neck movement a lot and that kept me from injury several times just by itself.
I never thought of that, that's really interesting.
I think the short videos are fine, like a quick question sort of thing.
Very interesting thoughts. :)
Cool. never thought of it that way. But these vids and other info I have been reading is learning there is more in armor defense/attack fighting that includes grappling than sword hacking at metal which seemed silly in logic.
I personally love the "small points" style of video, though you could either do it like lindybeige or compile a lot into a compilation of 2 to 3 minute points into a full video
Perhaps call it "Armor Points vol.(number)", for the pun
When will this channel get the at least 300k suscribers it deserves?
Takes a while to grow, many just don't know this channel even exists even if they'd be interested in the topics. As anecdotal evidence I've recommended this channel to my friends who follow Scholagladiatoria, Skallagrim etc and practice HEMA and they've been interested, so the growth potential is there, they just need to see the channel first though.
I would definitely like to see more short videos like this one every once in a while, if you have more smaller points to make!
This was a great video. Thanks. Regarding armored warfare, I'd love to know more about unit tactics during the 100 years war. We know about individual combat techniques from treatises, we know how some battles went regarding troop displacement and movement from historical records. However, we seem to know very little indeed about how small to medium sized groups of men fought together as a unit. I'm looking for specifics, i.e. this guy's job was hooking legs, this guy's job was stabbing with a pike from the 3rd row, etc.
There's not a lot of information on that sort of thing as far as I'm aware. It seems to have been handed down within each military and they relied on having veterans around to perpetuate the teachings. Apparently it wasn't ever all collected and put into text in any format. All people have to go on are historic records which tend not to detail that sort of thing much, and eyewitness accounts of battles.
Yep, I've not found anything useful. Lost to the mists of time.
I've been apprenticing with an armourer for a couple of months and one thing that surprised me was that on most of the gauntlets he builds, you can't move your thumb quite all the way back, but he showed me how this makes it much harder for someone to break your thumb.
Good point.
good point and video is great too
Ooh! Random short vid points! I'm fine with this! You might want to have some compilations.
I had actually thought of this myself. I consider than a cool point that is rarely brought up.
The added weight of extremities with armor calls for elevated restriction of movement at the extreme limits of one's natural range of motion. The additional weight can add extra momentum and torque which might easily contribute to overextension of joints right past one's normal safe extreme limits. An exoskeleton with somewhat conservative stops reins in that extra weight and momentum before it can do such damage to the wearer.
This is an excellent observation. In terms of the mechanics, it sounds similar to the practice of "shoulder packing" in weight lifting where the intention is to limit the range of motion of the shoulder to avoid hyper extension of the joint when under load, such as when performing dumbbell flys. Here, armoured individuals are taking advantage of the limitations of the armour to protect themselves, something unarmoured martial artists cannot do, relying on technique to avoid being locked, instead.
That is quite an insight... it makes a lot more sense on why western wrestling be so diferent from jujutsu....
everything medieval is fun to know about, especially trivia such as this which only someone such as yourself could talk about.
I feel like the point you brought up is one of those "Wow, I feel like an idiot for not thinking of this before."
Hi Ian. Allways enjoy your videos. I was wondering if you have any klowledge, or sources about eastern europe armor. Im into HMB, and trying to find rellyable sources on them. Thanx.
Still slowly making my way through your vids Ian. Hope you're doing well
Greenwich armorers did something to enhance this! they made it so it would be extremely difficult to break the leg/arm at the joint via hyperextension in the WRONG direction!
Yes! I was right! I had a friend who I was arguing with about the effectiveness of armor, and he, being a wrestler, said it would be easy to take down a knight as long as you could get in close and simply break his joints. But I was right when I said that's not an option due to the restriction of the joints by the armor! Haha! Suck on that Michael!
In fairness it depends on the kind of armor. A lot of German arm armors are _floated_ instead of _articulated_ so you can still break their elbows if you want :)
Whoo hoo! I made it into an Ian LaSpina vid!
Worth it
'Never thought of that.
I've never seen a pirate/knight crossover before!
Hey guys! You can check out our video response to this video here! Be sure to follow us for more historical armoured techniques :) ruclips.net/video/fWBC6Y7u1S4/видео.html
-Reece
yay 2nd XD nice and informative video errant
Well, at the end, natural joints also have movement limits, and that's when bad things happen, so i think that the best situation would be one where the limitations on the movement of the armor matches the limitations of your own joints. Compared to that, an armor that can move more than your own joints would be a disadvantage. But of course, the movements of our joints are very complex.
The armor could be very resistant to damage, but if someone grabs your arm, bends it in the wrong direction, and the armor allows that movement, you're screwed. So, i wouldn't be so sure about this been an unintentional feature. But the only way to know would be to get some evidence from medieval times, like some manuscript talking about that.
I was thinking the same thing, the mobility restriction prevent your limbs to be badly broken.
But I have a question:
Is not easiear to exploit those restrictions?
I mean, if you have less ROM, you might end in a "locked" position before someone without the same joint restriction.
(Hope my example is clear enough)
Or am I completly wrong?
We'd be talking about the differences of a few degrees in good armor, so I don't imagine the 'lockout' potential is a big enough worry compared to the broken arm/leg etc potential (just my speculation).
Knyght Errant
Thank You for the answer!
Well I think it depends a lot on the context, the situation and the type of "lock".
Maybe some test should be required!
As always nice video, thank You!
Never considered that. Good point.
Have someone done a test what force you need to brake that rivets? I guess it is a lot, because a part of the force would go in elastic deformation before any part is thinking of giving up.
I thought your concept for a long time and I’m sure that I heard someone pointing out that god armour should protect you from over stretching your joints. I think it was about the danger to fall of your horse while wearing armour; one that it would be very dangerous because of the weight of the armour and one, in armour, that it is way more save to fall with then without armour.
Nothing wrong with shorter videos now and again!
If I started doing armoured combat, I'd sit in a giant iron cube and poke my sword through the letter box slot.
Come at me.
s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/28/35/84/283584a4bda3c9b234fc2f78dfab96d3--medieval-weapons-medieval-life.jpg
It's perfect.
*Terminator theme plays on hurdy-gurdy*
A person I know got his leg broken in an armored fight when his was throwing his opponent over his leg, and it got hyperextended at the knee joint because of the weight of the opponent. I guess his armor was not restrictive enough.
more rigid joints can prepare the joints for more heavier impacts compared to a flexible joint
Record them all the time!
Incidentally, short videos are better for your channel because frequent uploads mean more subscribers.
woth it
I like joint
E&I=Educational&Informative; could you ever envision in today's-'culture', getting this Very-Valuable information on the channels(who's programs are carried under the 'banner' of those initials) who(m) MOST Need to learn such knowledge= NOT-a-chance!!
So no bjj against an armored guy.
how much did you pay for your beautiful bascinet?
I'm not sure any thing you could make would be a waste of time mate.